IS HERE. AND IN WASHINGTON BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN JOINS US. >> THE WAY YOU BUILD A CRIMINAL CASE IS BRICK BY BRICK. AND THIS WHOLE PIECE OF THE JANUARY 6th CASE, YOU HAVE SOMEBODY WHO IS GOING TO BE, AS YOU CAN SEE WITH THE CLIP YOU JUST PLAYED SHOWED A REALLY GOOD WITNESS FOR THE GOVERNMENT. AND HE'S GOING TO BE FACTUAL. HE'S GOING TO TALK ABOUT, AS A REPUBLICAN APPOINTED BY DONALD TRUMP, GIVING FACTS SAYING THERE WAS NO FRAUD IN THE ELECTION. AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, THERE ARE NO FACTS. SO, IT'S JUST A WONDERFUL EXAMPLE. SO, YOU CAN ADD TO BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, YOU CAN ADD IT TO PENCE AND THE ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL IN PLACE OF JEFF CLARK. IT'S ALL IN PLACE. AND SAID THIS IS ONE REALLY GOOD BUILDING BLOCK WHEN YOU SORT OF GIVE THAT LITANY, THIS IS GOING TO BE QUITE A HEFTY WALL. THIS IS A BLOCK OF EVIDENCE. >> YEAH, TO YOUR POINT, OF COURSE, THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT JACK SMITH PLANS TO CHAMP DONALD TRUMP ON JANUARY 6 RELATED CRIMES. BUT SHOULD HE ARRIVE AT THAT DETERMINATION, YOU CAN ALMOST IMAGINE LIFELONG TRUMP APPOINTEES LIKE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER WHO SAID I VOTED FOR TRUMP, I WORKED FOR HIM TO WIN, I WISH HE WOULD HAVE WON. BUT WHEN HE DIDN'T, I COULDN'T FIND 11,887 VOTES. AND CHRIS KREBS, I WENT THROUGH THE PERSONNEL OFFICE, MY JOB WAS SECURE. >> RIGHT, GUESS WHAT, PEOPLE ACT OUT OF PRINCIPLE. PEOPLE CAN ACT OUT OF PRINCIPLE, DEMOCRATS CAN ACT OUT OF PRINCE BELL. THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS BEING ACCUSED OF NOT ACTING OUT OF PRINCPRINCIPLE, AS HE FAMOUS SAID TO MIKE PENCE, YOU'RE TOO HONEST. THIS IS A REALLY GOOD BUILDING BLOCK. AND I SUGGEST THAT THEY'RE LOOKING TO SEE IF CHRIS KREBS CAN BE A GOOD GOVERNMENT WITNESS. BECAUSE HE WAS SO FACTUAL. HIS JOB WAS LOOKING AT THE ELECTION. SO THE CLIP YOU PLAYED IS GOING TO BE BACKED UP BY LOTS OF DATA THAT HE CAN PLAY OUT TO THE JURY. AND THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANYTHING ON THE OTHER SIDE. >> RIGHT. I MEAN, IT SEEMS WITH SEVEN YEARS OF COVERING MUELLER AND THE IMPEACHMENT. AND TRYING TO HOLD TRUMP ACCOUNT ONLY THERE'S THE LAST LINK OF TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HIS INTENTIONS. AND IT SEEMS LIKE A CRUSH OF WITNESSES LIKE BILL BARR WHO SAID I TOLD HIM IT WAS BULL -- AND LOST THE DATA THAT SHOWS HIM THE COUNTIES. I MEAN, IT SEEMS LIKE ANYONE SEEKING TO IMPROVE HIS INTENTIONALITY HAS TO DO IS FIND ALL OF THESE PEOPLE THAT INTERACTED WITH TRUMP AND TOLD HIM THE TRUTH? >> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. SO JACK SMITH IS INVESTIGATING THIS CONCERTED EFFORT BY DONALD TRUMP TO BASICALLY HIJACK THE JANUARY 6 ELECTION. AND THAT HAS TWO BIG PRONGS TO IT. ONE IS COCKAMAMY LEGAL THEORIES THAT TRUMP ADVANCED AND WE'RE TALKED ABOUT THOSE AD NAUSEAM. AND THE OTHER IS INSANE PERSONNEL DECISIONS. GETTING RID OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY TELL THE TRUTH AND PUTTING IN PEOPLE LIKE RUDY GIULIANI, IN POSITIONS OF POWER, AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO WHAT SMITH IS DOING HERE, HE'S TRYING TO GET UNDER THE HOOD, AS YOU SAID AT THE OUTSET, BY LOOKING AT THE PERSONNEL DECISIONS, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY DID YOU FIRE THIS GOOD GUY. I MEAN, BILL BARR SAID THIS WAS BASICALLY A CLOWN SHOW JANUARY 6. BILL BARR KNOWS A LOT ABOUT CLOWN SHOWS. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT I THINK SMITH IS DOING. TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHY IS IT IN THE WORLD THAT YOU WOULD GET RID OF THE ONE GUY WHO ACTUALLY TALKS SENSE. YOU JUST PLAYED THE CLIP. HE DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOUR TYPICAL TRUMP PERSON. HE SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE WHO PLAYS IT STRAIGHT. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT TRUMP'S PROBLEM WAS. >> I MEAN, THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM IN 2016, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAD TO TURN TO THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND OTHER SECURITY AGENCIES AND COMMUNICATE TO LEADERS ON THE HILL THAT RUSSIA HAD INTERFERED IN THAT ELECTION. SO, THE MISSION WAS BORNE OUT OF A NATIONAL SECURITY IMPERATIVE, REALLY, FROM THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL CONTEST. SO, IT SEEMS TO CUT BOTH WAYS, TOWARDS TRUMP'S INTENTION TO OVERTURN A DEFEAT. AND TRUMP'S INDIFFERENCE ABOUT CHRIS KREBS WOULD SAY THE MISSION WAS PROTECTING ELECTIONS. >> YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE GOVERNMENT FROM 2016 TO 2020 WAS DOING EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO WHICH IS UNCOVERING RUSSIAN INTERFERENCES, AND FIGURE OUT COUNTERMEASURES AND THE LIKE. WHAT CHRIS KREBS SAID TWO WEEKS AFTER THE ELECTION. WE DID IT, WE SUCCEEDED. WE GOT IT RIGHT. TRUMP THEN FIRES HIM AND TALKS ABOUT HUGO CHAVEZ AND ALL SORTS OF NONSENSE IN ORDER TO BUILD NARRATIVE. AND WE SAW THE CONSEQUENCES, UNFORTUNATELY, OF THAT NARRATIVE ON JANUARY 6 OF. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE REAL TRUTH OF PROPORTIONALITY BETWEEN THE TIME OF JACK SMITH AND THE INVESTIGATION AND JANUARY 6? >> WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE JANUARY 6 CASE, WHILE I THINK IT WILL BE BROUGHT AND I THINK IT WILL BE EXTREMELY STRONG FOR THE REASONS WE DISCUSSED, IT'S JUST SO COMPLICATED BECAUSE IT'S SO MUCH BIGGER. WE TALKED ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WHITE HOUSE WITH PENCE. WE TALKED ABOUT THE DOJ WITH THE STATE PIECES. THERE'S THE CHRIS KREBS PIECES. >> A LOT. >> EXACTLY. AND SOMEONE DISAGREED WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WHEN HE SAID THIS IS THE MOST MASSIVE INVESTIGATION WE'VE EVER UNDERTAKEN. I MEAN, THIS ISN'T. IT'S JUST IT'S BIG, BUT IT'S NOT TERRIBLY COMPLICATED. THE EVIDENCE IS THIS IS THE KIND OF EVIDENCE WHEN YOU'RE A PROSECUTOR, YOU'RE SORT OF LIKE DYING FOR THIS BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH PROOF. MAR-A-LAGO IS JUST A MUCH MORE DISCREET SET OF FACTS. YOU STILL HAVE TO TIE EVERYTHING DOWN, YOU HAVE TO INTERVIEW ALL OF THE WITNESSES. THAT IS ONE, IF I WERE A BETTING MAN TO ANSWER THESE KIND OF QUESTIONS I WOULD SAY MAR-A-LAGO IS GOING TO GO FIRST. AND THAT SEEMS TO ME, I MEAN, I HATE TO USE THE PHRASE BECAUSE FANI WILLIS HAS USED IT, IT DOES SEEM IMMINENT TO ME. AND I FEEL THAT JACK SMITH WILL FEEL THE PRESSURE TO BRING IT -- NOT BECAUSE HE WANTS TO RUSH IT BUT I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE ENTITLED TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO WHETHER A CANDIDATE FOR OFFICE HAS COMMITTED A STATE AND FEDERAL CRIMES. SO, I THINK JACK SMITH WILL FEEL THAT PRESSURE. I THINK ANY JUDGE WHO GETS THIS CASE WILL FEEL THE PRESSURE TO BRING THAT TO FRUITION, AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, CONSISTENT WITH DUE PROCESS, MEANING THAT DONALD TRUMP LIKE ANY DEFENDANT IS GOING TO BE GIVEN TIME TO PREPARE AND MAKE MOTIONS. BUT NOT DRAG THINGS OUT AD NAUSEAM AS THEY WANT. >> TO PUT IT IN MORE SIMPLE TERMS, MAR-A-LAGO IS REALLY EASY. TRUMP STOLE SOME STUFF. HE THEN LIED ABOUT STEAL SOMETHING STUFF. AND THEN THEY MOVED, YOU KNOW, THE STUFF, WHEN INVESTIGATORS CAME. THAT IS ALL THE PROSECUTION IS. IT'S NOT THAT DIFFERENT THAN GOVERNMENT PROSECUTING PEOPLE FOR STEALING STUFF. INDEED IF IT WERE ANYONE ELSE THIS GUY WOULD HAVE BEEN INDICTED A LONG, LONG TIME AGO. THAT MAKES IT AN EASY CASE. IT MAKES IT A CASE, ANDREW TALKS ABOUT PRESSURE TO INDICT. I WOULDN'T SAY THAT I'D SAY BASICALLY, AS A PROSECUTOR LOOKING AT THIS, YOU ASK WAS THE LAW VIOLATED AND IS THIS THE TRADITIONAL THING WE PROSECUTE? EVERY DAY, EVERY WEEK WE WOULD. THAT'S JUST THE PROPERTY OF IT. YOU ADD ON THE NATIONAL SECURITY DIMENSION. PEOPLE HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES FOR THE KIND OF MATERIAL THAT TRUMP IS HOLDING IN HIS SOCIAL CLUB. >> TO THIS DAY. >> YEAH, YOU KNOW. WHEN YOU ADD ALL OF THAT, IT MAKES IT, TO ME, VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO INDICT THIS CASE FOR THAT REASON. >> AND ISN'T THERE AN ASPECT WHERE YOU BRING THE CASE WHEN IT'S READY? THERE'S A SENSE FROM THE OUTSIDE THAT MAY BE MORE MATURE? >> YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, I PRESSURE IN ENRON, BEING IN A MEETING WHEN THE THEN ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL DEFENDED US AND SAID, YOU KNOW, THE ENRON TASK FORCE, THE CASES IT'S GOING TO BRING WHEN THEY TELL THEY'RE READY. BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING WORSE THAN BRINGING A CASE BEFORE IT'S READY. AND I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE IMPATIENT IN THINKING WHY HASN'T THIS HAPPENED. REMEMBER, YOU WANT THE CASE TO SUCCEED, YOU WANT TO CONVINCE A JURY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. WHILE I AGREE WITH NEAL, CERTAINLY MAR-A-LAGO IS, I WON'T SAY EASY, BUT I DON'T REALLY THINK ANY CRIMINAL CASE IS EASY, BECAUSE THE BURDEN IS SO HIGH. AND YOU WANT TO TIE EVERYTHING DOWN. BUT I DO THINK THAT'S ONE WHERE IT CAN BE READY. AND WE'RE SEEING ALL OF THE TINES THAT JACK SMITH IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE IS TRAINED TO DO, WHICH IS TO REALLY LOCK EVERYTHING IN, SO THAT HE CAN WIN THE CASE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT,
