National Book Festival Livestream - Day 3

Testing Testing Testing Testing Testing Testing Testing Testing Testing. >> SPONSORED BY THE JAMES MADISON CONSOLE. >> HELLO EVERYONE WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS BOOK FESTIVAL. I'M ALLISON STARLING FROM CHANNEL 7 NEWS. I AM HAPPY TO JOIN YOU TODAY. >>ALLISON: I'M HAPPY TO INTRODUCE OUR AUTHOR, THE LOVELY KATHERINE MAY. SHE IS THE AUTHOR OF WINTERING: THE POWER OF REST AND RETREAT IN DIFFICULT TIMES. IT IS SO GOOD TO SEE YOU TODAY. >> KATHERINE: IT IS SO GOOD TO MEET YOU. >>ALLISON: I LOOK FORWARD TO OUR CONVERSATION. I KNOW MOST OF YOU KNOW OF KATHERINE MAY SHE IS A NEW YORK TIMES BEST SELLER AUTHOR AND HER TITLES INCLUDE WINTERING: THE POWER OF REST AND RETREAT IN DIFFICULT TIMES WHICH WE WILL DISCUSS AND THE ELECTRICITY OF EVERY LIVING THING WHICH IS OUR MEMOIR ABOUT BEING AUTISTIC AND HER FICTION INCLUDES THE HIGH TIDES SWIMMING CLUB AND BURNING OUT. SHE IS ALSO THE EDITOR OF THE BEST AND MOST AWFUL JOB AND ESSAY ABOUT MOTHERHOOD. WE ARE HERE TO TALK ABOUT WINTERING. THERE'S A LOT TO GET TO ABOUT THIS. I KNOW IT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS PART MEMOIR, PART NATURE WRITING, WOULD YOU SAY THAT'S AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION? >> KATHERINE: YES, I THINK MY BOOKS ARE GOOD REPRESENTATIONS OF WHAT'S INSIDE OF OUR HEAD. THERE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF FEEDS. ON ONE HAND I LIKE TO WRITE MEMOIRS BUT I ALSO LIKE MYTHOLOGY LITERATURE, MAYBE SOME SCIENCE AND SOCIAL SCIENCE. EVERYTHING GOES INTO IT. >>ALLISON: A LOT TO GET TO. I WANTED TO MENTION TO EVERYONE JOINING US TODAY, WE WILL HAVE TIME AT THE END OF THE CONVERSATION TO GET TO QUESTIONS. ANYTIME YOU SUBMIT THE QUESTIONS, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE AT THE END. FEEL FREE TO THROW THAT IN. OKAY, IT IS CERTAINLY PART MEMOIR. TELL ME WHERE YOU WERE IN YOUR LIFE AT THE TIME OF WRITING AND THE EXPERIENCES THAT INSPIRED THE STORY. >> KATHERINE: WINTERING CAME AT THE INCEPTION OF DIFFICULT LIFE EVENTS. IT WAS A MOMENT WHEN I WAS JUST APPROACHING MY 40th BIRTHDAY AND I HAD GONE TO THE BEACH TO CELEBRATE AND BY HUSBAND CAME DOWN WITH APPENDICITIS WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE LIFE-THREATENING AND TERRIFYING. THE STRANGE THING WAS, I WAS ALREADY SUFFERING FROM ABDOMINAL PAIN FOR A FEW WEEKS BEFORE THAT. AS HE WAS RECOVERING I BECAME SICKER, AND I TO TAKE TIME OFF OF WORK. I WAS LEADING A CREATIVE WRITING COURSE AT THE UNIVERSITY. WINTERING CAPTURES THE TIME OF, THIS COCKTAIL OF EMOTIONS THAT SO FAMILIAR TO US. THE FEAR, THE DISLOCATION FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD, THE WORRIES ABOUT THE PRESENT AND THE FUTURE. AND THE STRONG SENSE THAT YOU ARE NO LONGER IN STEP WITH THE LIFE THAT EVERYONE ELSE'S LEADING. SO, WINTERING IS ABOUT THE PERFECT STORM, IT TAKES US OUT OF THE EVERY DAY. >>ALLISON: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU DISCUSSED, WHICH I FIND INTERESTING IS THE IDEA, THAT NATURE IS TELLING US TO LIVE IN A MORE CYCLICAL WAY. WE DO NOT ALWAYS RESPOND TO THAT, AND I AM SURE THAT IS WHERE THE TITLE PARTIALLY COMES FROM. TELL ME HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT NATURE AND THE CYCLES AND HOW WE SHOULD RESPOND TO IT? BE NINE I THINK THERE ARE NATURAL CLUES ON HOW WE CAN COPE. NATURE, OPERATES IN CYCLES. IT DOES NOT DO WHAT WE DO WHICH IS PRETEND THE DARK MOMENTS ARE NOT BEARABLE SO TURN ON THE LIGHTS. THEN WISH THEM AWAY. IT IS ACTUALLY FULL ENGAGEMENT WITH WINTER. WHEN I LOOK AT SPECIES LIKE TREES AND DOOR MILES, ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT NATURAL FORMS, THEIR WHOLE LIFE GOES TOWARDS A. EVENT IN THE SUMMER THEY TRY TO MANAGE IT. IT BECOMES A BOOK ABOUT KNOWING WINTER IS NOT CYCLICAL BUT CHANGING THE WAY WE BEHAVE SO WE CAN COPE WITH IT BETTER. >>ALLISON: FOR THOSE OF US INCLUDING YOURSELF LIVING IN THIS WORLD THAT IS BUSY AND CRAZY, AND WE ARE BEING PULLED IN MANY DIRECTIONS, WHICH SUGGESTIONS OR PRACTICAL THINGS HAVE YOU DONE TO FOLLOW THIS GUIDANCE OF ALLOWING OURSELVES TO TAKE A WINTER WHEN WE NEED IT >> KATHERINE: WINTER CAN BE METAPHORICALLY IT DOES NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN IN THE WINTER. A LOT OF OUR DEEPEST WINTERS DO HAPPEN IN THE SEASON BECAUSE THE DARK MONTHS CAN AFFECT OUR MENTAL AND PHYSICAL HEALTH SO THERE IS A CORRELATION. BUT THE FIRST LINE OF THE BOOK IT SAYS SOME WINTERS HAPPEN IN THE SUN. WHAT WE CAN DO IS STOP TRYING TO PRETEND IT IS NOT HAPPENING. TO LEAN INTO THE WINTERS, TO FEEL THE FEELINGS THAT COME UP AS THEY COME UP, AND THAT WILL BE A RANGE OF THINGS. ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS THE ACT OF ACCEPTANCE AS A VERY REAL AND VALID, AND ALMOST BEAUTIFUL EMOTION IN ITS PUREST FORM. I ALSO TALK ABOUT HOW WE CAN MAKE OURSELVES COMFORTABLE DURING THE WINTER. HOW WE CAN EAT ALLEVIATE OUR SUFFERING BY TAKING GREAT CARE OF OURSELVES. I THINK OF THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT AFFECT US LIKE SLEEP. A LOOK AT HOW OUR SLEEP PATTERNS ARE SUPPOSED TO CHANGE IN THE WINTER AND IT IS NORMAL TO WAKE UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND HAVE A PERIOD OF INACTIVITY. BUT WE HAVE TURNED THAT INTO ANOTHER CRISIS. A LOT OF WAYS TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO DO THIS CONSCIOUSLY. >>ALLISON: WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE PANDEMIC AND THE TIMING OF THE BOOK IS SO APPROPRIATE FOR PEOPLE BECAUSE REALLY, WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH QUARANTINE IN OUR LIVES, HAS FORCED MANY OF US TO EMBRACE THE IDEA OF WINTERING AND HIBERNATING AND DOING THINGS IN A SLOWER WAY. YOU WROTE THIS BOOK BEFORE THE PANDEMIC. TELL ME ABOUT THE TIMING AND HOW THIS HAS PLAYED OUT. >> KATHERINE: THE BOOK CAME OUT LAST FEBRUARY, I'M SORRY LAST MARCH. SO ABOUT SIX MONTHS BEFORE. I HAVE ABOUT TWO WEEKS WHEN PEOPLE THOUGHT WINTERING WAS ABOUT SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND THEN FROM THEN ON PEOPLE SAW IT AS A GUIDANCE ON HOW TO LIVE THROUGH A PANDEMIC AND I BEGAN TO SEE THE WORD WINTERING USED ALL OVER THE PLACE. A MASS WINTERING OR A COLLECTIVE WINTERING WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN IN. IN AMERICA PEOPLE ASSUME I WROTE IT DURING THE PANDEMIC AND IT IS ABOUT THE PANDEMIC, THERE IS NOTHING THERE THAT MENTIONS THE PANDEMIC AT ALL BUT WE GIVE A BOOK YOU READING AS WELL AS TAKE IT AWAY FROM IT. PEOPLE WILL A SIMULATED WITH THE SITUATION THEY ARE LIVING IN. SOME HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT AS A PANDEMIC GUIDE. THAT IS A STRANGE HONOR. >>ALLISON: WHAT IS THAT EXPERIENCE LIKE TO WATCH SOMETHING YOU WROTE ABOUT YOUR PURELY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES COME ON THE SCENE AT A TIME WHEN EVERYONE IS GOING THROUGH IT, KIND OF FORCED INTO IT. WHAT HAS THAT BEEN LIKE FOR YOU TO WATCH YOUR BOOK TRANSFORM WITH THE TIMES? >> KATHERINE: IT HAS BEEN THRILLING. I AM A HELPER. I HELP PEOPLE AND GIVE THEM FIRST AID. BUT I FELT WITH THIS BOOK, I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HELP IN MY WAY, I HAVE PRACTICAL SKILLS, BUT IT HAS BEEN GREAT TO ACTUALLY PRODUCE A BOOK THAT PEOPLE CAN TERM TO -- TURNED TO DURING THIS CRISIS AND ALLOW IT TO SPEAK. ACTUALLY WE HAVE ALL BEEN WINTERING DIFFERENTLY. SOME OF US HAVE BEEN LONELY. SOME OF US HAVE BEEN OVERWHELMED BECAUSE THERE ARE CHILDREN IN THE HOUSE ALL OF THE TIME. SOME OF US HAVE BEEN SICK, AFRAID OF BEING SICK, THERE HAS BEEN SO MANY WAYS THIS HAS AFFECTED US. THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE WITH THIS BOOK. WINTERING IS A STATE WE HAVE IN COMMON. SO YEAH, I'M HAPPY TO HAVE THROWN BACK INTO THE OUTSIDE WORLD AT A TIME WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE NEEDED TO DRINK IT UP. >>ALLISON: I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION WHEN YOU MENTIONED BEING AUTISTIC AND IN YOUR BOOK WINTERING MEANS YOU EXPERIENCED WINTERING AT A VERY YOUNG AGE. TELL ME ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE AND HOW THAT PREPARED YOU FOR WRITING THIS BOOK AS WELL. >> KATHERINE: IT WAS MY MEMOIR THAT CAME OUT BEFORE THIS BOOK AND IT IS GOING TO COME OUT IN THE STATES. I DISCOVERED LATE IN LIFE I WAS AUTISTIC. LIKE LOTS OF WOMEN MY AGE WE ARE FINALLY GETTING THE DIAGNOSIS. MY CHILDHOOD FOLLOW THE VERY COMMON PATTERN FOR ARTISTIC PEOPLE BEING INCREDIBLY ISOLATED AND FEELING NOT JUST UNABLE TO FIT IN WITH EVERYDAY SOCIAL LIKE BUT ACTUALLY FEELING ALIEN AND CONSCIOUS OF BEING DIFFERENT AND THE WAY I THOUGHT AND FELT FROM THE KIDS AROUND ME AND HAVING NO ONE TO ARTICULATE THAT. I WOULD NOT WANT TO SAY THIS IS TRUE OF EVERY AUTISTIC PERSON BUT IT IS COMMON AND IT AFFECTED MY MENTAL HEALTH BADLY. I WAS DEPRESSED AT A VERY YOUNG AGE. I DEALT WITH SELF-HARM AND SUICIDAL THOUGHTS. I HAD AN EATING DISORDER. IT WAS JUST A LATE DIAGNOSIS. IN THAT SENSE I HAVE LEARNED I AM VERY NORMAL WITHIN MY COMMUNITY. BUT WE ARE EXPERT WINTERS. THOSE OF US WHO HAVE MADE IT THROUGH, WE HAVE LEARNED SOME SKILLS. WINTERING IS WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED IF WE WERE ABLE TO SURVIVE. I GOT TO A POINT ONCE I REALIZED IT I COULD PROCESS IT AND CO. I ACTUALLY FELT LIKE I HAD SOMETHING TO PASS ON THAT WAS USEFUL, BUT THE HARDSHIP WAS A TOOLKIT THAT EVERYONE COULD USE AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIFE. DESPITE THE COMMON BELIEF ABOUT AUTISM LIKE MOST AUTISM PEOPLE, I FEEL AN ENORMOUS EMPATHY AND COMMONALITY WITH ANYONE WHO IS WINTERING. IT HAS BEEN AN INCREDIBLY GOOD EXPERIENCE FOR ME AND I WOULD LIKE TO THINK I AM AN EXPERT AT WINTERING. >>ALLISON: IN THE BOOK FESTIVAL THIS YEAR THERE'S A LARGER QUESTION THEY ASKED US MODERATORS TO POSE TO THE AUTHORS AND THIS IS IT, IT FEATURES OUR THEME, THE THEME OF THE BOOK FESTIVAL IS SIMPLY OPEN A BOOK, OPEN THE WORLD. THE FOLLOW-UP QUESTION IS, HOW HAVE BOOKS OPENED THE WORLD FOR YOU? >> KATHERINE: HUGELY. I GREW UP IN A HOUSE WITHOUT LOTS OF BOOKS. WHEN I WAS 9-YEARS-OLD, I LIVED IN A VILLAGE, A TINY LIBRARY WAS OPEN DOWN THE STREET FROM ME, AND AT THAT MOMENT IT WAS SUCH EXCITEMENT AND AND I WENT DOWN THERE AND I READ. THEY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS FOR ME, BUT I HAD A CHOICE OF CATHERINE COOK SAUGUS OR STEPHEN KING. I WENT FOR STEPHEN KING. [ LAUGHTER ] THERE WAS ONE PARTICULAR BOOK THAT I REMEMBER PICKING UP OFF OF THE SHELF ABOUT CLIMBING MOUNTAINS. IT OPENS UP POSSIBILITIES TO ME ABOUT WHAT WRITING WAS AND WHAT YOU COULD DO IN THE WORLD. I DON'T THINK THERE IS A READER THAT HASN'T HAD AN ENCOUNTER WITH A BOOK THAT HAS CHANGED WHAT THEIR LIFE COULD BE. >>ALLISON: MENTIONED -- YOU MENTIONED YOUR SON, HE IS 8-YEARS-OLD DO YOU READ TOGETHER? >> KATHERINE: HE'S NOT THE MOST ENTHUSIASTIC READER AND I MUST SAY THAT. HE ENJOYS THE CERTAIN TYPES OF BOOKS. I'M ALWAYS FINDING WAYS TO SNEAK READING UNDERS RADAR. IF I WAY TO THEM LET'S SIT DOWN AND READ THIS BOOK HE WILL RESIST IT VERY HARD BUT IF I CAN FIND SOMETHING HE IS INTERESTED IN AT THE TIME, I WILL TIME TO HAVE A LOOK, AND THAT WILL GET HIM READING. HE CAN READ, WHICH IS FANTASTIC. HE DOES NOT ALWAYS CHOOSE TO. SOMETIMES THE BEST WE CAN DO IS ANOTHER ROUND THROUGH THE POKÉMON ENCYCLOPEDIA AND WE JUST HAVE TO TAKE WHAT WE CAN GET. I HAVE YET TO PASS ON MY PASSION TO READING FOR HIM BUT I AM WORKING ON IT. >>ALLISON: I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED CAPTAIN UNDERPANTS, A MEMBER OF THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS IS AMAZING AND SHE SAYS THAT IS HER FAVORITE CHILDREN'S BOOK SERIES. SHE LOVES TO CELEBRATE THAT AND TELL PARENTS ALL ABOUT IT. >> KATHERINE: THAT'S A GREAT BOOK. APOLOGIES IF I'M SAYING THE NAME WRONG, BUT THE AUTHOR TALKED ABOUT HIS OWN ADHD. IT'S IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT WAYS OF BEING IN THE WORLD. FOR SOME KIDS IT'S A STRUGGLE AND HE ARTICULATES THAT ANY IS A BRILLIANT MODEL FOR TALKING ABOUT CREATIVITY AS WELL. WE SHOULD NEVER THINK ANY DIFFERENT OF THESE BOOKS. >>ALLISON: I WANTED TO REMIND EVERYONE WE ARE HAPPY TO TAKE ANY QUESTIONS IF ANYONE HAS ANYTHING TO ASK KATHERINE MAY WHO, BY THE WAY HAD HER BIRTHDAY YESTERDAY. HAPPY BIRTHDAY. >> KATHERINE: THANK YOU. >>ALLISON: I HOPE YOU HAD A RIGHT DAY. >> KATHERINE: I SWIM IN THE SEA AND I WENT FOR PIZZA. >> KATHERINE: YES. >>ALLISON: IT SOUNDS LIKE A PERFECT BIRTHDAY. >>ALLISON: I WANTED TO READ THE LAST PASSAGE OF THE BOOK, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM IF I READ THAT? IT SPOKE TO ME VERY MUCH AND I WANTED TO READ THIS AND GET YOUR THOUGHTS BECAUSE, I ALWAYS WONDER HOW A AUTHOR, YOU WORK ON A BOOK AND YOU GET TO THE END AND YOU SAY HOW DO I SUM THIS UP IN A WAY THAT IS APPROPRIATE. HERE IT IS, IT OFTEN SEEMS EASIER TO STAY IN WINDSOR, PEARL DOWN INTO OUR HIBERNATION AWAY FROM THE GLARE OF THE SON BUT WE ARE BRAVE. A NEW WORLD AWAITS US GLEAMING ALLIED WITH THE BEATS AND BESIDES WE HAVE A GOSPEL TO TELL NOW AND A DUTY TO SHARE IT. WE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH WHEN TREVOR LEARNED SOME THINGS. WE SING LIKE BIRDS, WE LET OUR BIRDS AND VOICES FILLED THE AIR. I LOVE HOW YOU IN THE BOOK ON SUCH A POSITIVE NOTE, AFTER DESCRIBING DIFFICULT TIMES IN YOUR LIFE. >> KATHERINE: YES, FUNNY ENOUGH IT WAS NOT HARD TO WRITE THE ENDING. I WAS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT REALLY DREW THE READER INTO THE PAGE AND MAKE THEM PART OF THE STORY. THE THING I WANTED TO SAY MOST OF ALL, WISDOM COMES FROM WINSOME AND WE DON'T GET IT UNTIL WE HAVE SUFFERED. THAT IS AN ENORMOUS GIFT TO TAKE BACK OUT INTO THE WORLD. IT'S NOT SEEN IT IS NOT HORRIBLE AND WE HAVE NOT GONE THROUGH TERRIBLE THINGS, BUT THE WORLD NEEDS IS MORE THAN EVER WHEN WE COME OUTSIDE OF THAT. AND WE HAVE SOMETHING SUBSTANTIAL THAT WE CAN OFFER AFTER THAT, AND YEAH, I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THINKING IN THE PREVIOUS CHAPTER AND I WANTED TO TELL EVERYONE ABOUT THE BIRDS GOING OUT AND SINGING THEIR GOSPEL. >>ALLISON: YOU SAID EARLIER YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A TEENAGER AND YOUR BOUTS WITH ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION AND COMING THROUGH THAT AND HAVING LEARNED TOOLS THAT GOT YOU THROUGH IT SAFELY TO THE OTHER SIDE, THAT YOU FELT STRONGLY ABOUT SHARING. >> KATHERINE: ABSOLUTELY. I SAY IN THE BOOK YOU CAN LET THAT TURN BITTER IN YOU OR FILL YOU WITH COMPASSION. I STRONGLY FEEL COMPASSION IS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO. >>ALLISON: WE HAVE 10 MINUTES LEFT, I WANT TO ASK ANYONE WHO IS ABLE TO SEND ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS, I DO HAVE TWO QUESTIONS SO FAR AND THE FIRST ONE IS FROM SARAH. SARAH, THANK YOU FOR SENDING YOUR QUESTION. SHE ASKED, DO YOU VIEW WRITING AS A SPIRITUAL PRACTICE? >> KATHERINE: I WISH THAT I DID. [ LAUGHTER ] I ACTUALLY FIND IT VERY HARD. I DON'T THINK MIGHT SPIRITUAL LIFE HAPPENS ON THE PAGE, BUT I KNOW THAT IS TRUE FOR SOME PEOPLE. I'M JUST STAYED DIFFERENT KIND OF WRITER BUT I DO FIND, I USE IT TO PROCESS THOUGHTS, FEELINGS, IDEAS AND EVEN OPINIONS. SOMETIMES I WRITE ABOUT SOMETHING BEFORE I KNOW ABOUT IT. IT IS MY WAY OF REALLY DELVING DEEP AND MAKING CONNECTIONS AND ASSOCIATIONS AND UNDERSTANDING MY RESPONSE AND COMPLEX FEELINGS IT DEFINITELY HAS HUGE UTILITY IN MY LIFE. I KNOW, I THINK BEING OUTSIDE OF WALKING AND SWIMMING IN THE SPIRITUAL SPACE FOR ME, WRITING IS JUST A THOUGHT. >>ALLISON: THERE'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF PRESSURE WHEN YOU ARE WRITING AS A CAREER VERSUS, WHAT MANY OF US DO AND THAT IS RIGHT IN A JOURNAL OR WHATEVER. YOU FEEL DIFFERENTLY. >> KATHERINE: ABSOLUTELY. I HAVE PARTICULAR NOTEBOOKS THAT I PROMISED MYSELF, IT WILL NEVER TURN INTO PROFESSIONAL WRITING AND THAT IS QUITE FREEING. I WAS ALWAYS A FREE WRITER FROM THE START BEFORE I WAS PROFESSIONAL. WHEN I FIRST SAT DOWN TO WRITE, I WAS SO DESPERATE TO PRODUCE SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL. I HAD TO GO INTO THERAPY TO WRITE WORDS, THAT IS HOW I AM ABOUT WRITING. I DON'T MAKE IT SOUND VERY APPEALING. >>ALLISON: SPEAKING OF THAT WE HAVE BOOK GOOD QUESTION, WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT SOMEONE WHO GETS ANXIOUS DURING DIFFICULT TIMES, WHAT SHOULD THEY DO TO KEEP THEIR NERVES CALM? >> KATHERINE: TWO BIG THINGS THAT I HAVE LEARNED TO DO. FIRST OF ALL, FIND THINGS THAT DELIBERATELY, NOT TELL YOURSELF THAT ANXIETY IS REAL OR NOT VALID, BUT I HAVE SELF SOOTHING TECHNIQUES THAT I TURNED TO REGULARLY EVEN IF I AM NOT ANXIOUS. I HAVE IT IN MY TOOLKIT WHEN I AM ANXIOUS. THIS WILL BE DIFFERENT FROM EVERYONE BUT MINE IS SWIMMING IN THE COLD SEE. I LIVE NEAR THE SEA AND I LOVE THE COLD WATER AND THAT REALLY HELPS TO CALL ME. AND BEING SUBMERGED IN WATER REALLY HELPS. I ALSO LOVE TO COOK. IF I'M REALLY FEELING ANXIOUS I WILL COOK SOMETHING COMFORTING. I THINK IT IS JUST WORKING WITH THE HANDS THAT I FIND SOOTHING. AS AN EMERGENCY MEASURE I HAVE PEPPERMINT OIL THAT I WILL PUT ON A HANDKERCHIEF AND I WILL SIT DOWN QUIETLY AND SNIFFED. IT IS JUST SOMETHING THAT COUNTERACTS THAT CYCLE THAT GOES INTO YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU ARE EXTREMELY ANXIOUS. I ONLY GOT THROUGH THOSE THINGS THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR. BEING AUTISTIC I NEED TIME AND SPACE AND PEACE AND I KNOW I GET TO ANCIENTS IF I SPENT TOO MUCH TIME IN NOISY ENVIRONMENTS SO I'VE CHANGED MY LIFESTYLE. I MAKE SURE I AM WELL EXERCISE. I ALSO DO MEDITATION. I KNOW SOME PEOPLE THINK IT SOUNDS HIDEOUS BEING WITH YOUR OWN THOUGHTS AND THE QUIET, BUT IT HAS BEEN THE ONLY THING FOR ME THAT HAS GOTTEN RID OF MICRONIC ANXIETY. SITTING DOWN QUIETLY EVERY DAY AND REPEATING A MANTRA AND IT HAS HELPED ME. I WOULD RECOMMEND IT FOR ANYONE TO TRY IT AND PUT ASIDE THEIR CYNICISM ABOUT WHAT THEIR BRAIN CAN DO. BELIEVE ME I HAD A NOISY AND ANXIOUS BRAIN AS WELL AND IT HAS REALLY HELPED ME. >>ALLISON: I AGREE ON THE MEDITATION. I STARTED THAT A FEW YEARS AGO TOO AND IT IS LIKE CHANGING. UNTIL YOU DO IT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND WHY BUT I AGREE WITH YOU THERE. I HAVE A SIMILAR QUESTION FROM EILEEN. SHE SAYS HOW DO YOU SUSTAIN A POSITIVE ATTITUDE AND AVOID DEPRESSION WHEN CHALLENGES SEEM TO NEVER INFERENCES THE PANDEMIC. EILEEN SAID WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A FEW MONTHS BUT IT IS STILL GOING ON. WE HAVE THE INCITING SITE BUT THERE IS ALSO JUST KEEPING A POSITIVE ATTITUDE. >> KATHERINE: IT IS INCREDIBLY HARD. FOR BOTH OF YOUR CORRESPONDENCE I WILL SAY NEVER BE AFRAID TO GO TO A DOCTOR ABOUT THIS. THERE'S NO SHAME. DISEASES MAY TAKE YOU DOWN SO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY. THE BIG MENTAL TRICK FOR ME IS I DO NOT TRY TO MAINTAIN. I LET MYSELF FEEL TERRIBLE. THIS PANDEMIC TIME HAS BEEN AWFUL. THERE WAS NO MITIGATING THE FACT THAT IT HAS BEEN TERRIBLE. YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO HAVE HATED THIS. IN YOUR LIFE. THAT IS FINE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO OUT AND FEEL GREAT. BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IS GO BACK AND DELIBERATELY SOOTHE YOURSELF. TRY TO PROCESS HER FEELINGS BY WRITING THEM DOWN. WRITING IS SO GREAT. I OFTEN VOICE RECORD MY FEELINGS. THAT TAKES A LITTLE PRESSURE OFF. I WILL DOUBLE DOWN ON THE THINGS THAT SOOTHE ME. THAT FOR YOU MAY BE SPENDING TIME WITH OTHER PEOPLE. FOR ME IT IS THE OPPOSITE, MAKING SURE I GET ENOUGH PEACE, QUIET, LISTENING TO MUSIC, RENTED CANDLES, WALKING, DIMMING THE LIGHTS. I COULD WALK ALL OF MY BAD EMOTIONS OUT. THEY GRADUALLY ABSORB INTO THE GROUND. IT IS ABOUT FINDING YOUR OWN WAY TO SOOTHE AND NOT JUST KNOWING IT BUT ALLOWING YOURSELF THOSE ITEMS THAT SOOTHE YOU. THE PRACTICES THAT SOOTHE YOU. A LOT OF US DON'T TAKE THE FINAL STEP. WE NOTE THE STEPS BUT WE DO NOT AWARD OURSELVES BECAUSE WE DON'T THINK WE DESERVE IT OR WE ARE NOT SUFFERING ENOUGH. I THINK WHERE IS THE HOT BATH. >>ALLISON: I ALSO HAVE A QUESTION, YOU MENTIONED VOICE RECORDING A MINUTE AGO AND I HAVE A QUESTION FROM JACK. HE SAID AS CREATIVE WORK HOW DOES PODCAST DIFFER FROM WRITING DOESN'T GET IN THE WAY OR ENHANCE IT? >> KATHERINE: IT DEFINITELY ENHANCES IT. I STARTED MY PODCAST IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC ACTUALLY. ONE OF THE REASONS WAS THAT PEOPLE KEPT TELLING ME ABOUT THEIR WINTERING EXPERIENCES IN RESPONSE TO MINE AND I THOUGHT, THESE ARE STORIES WE DO NOT TELL OUT LOUD BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE SMALL STORIES BUT THEY ARE BIG AND UNIVERSAL. SO I INVITE PEOPLE TO TELL ME THERE WINTERING STORY. FOR ME, IT ENHANCED IT BECAUSE I HEAR DIFFERENT CORNERS OF THE STORY THAT I TRIED TO TELL. I UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE PROCESS IT. I AM IN CONTACT WITH MY CREATIVE COMMUNITY AND THAT WAS HARD TO COME BY. PODCASTING HAS LET ME DELVE INTO CONVERSATIONS WITH A WHOLE RANGE OF FASCINATING PEOPLE. WE GO THERE. I DO NOT LET ANYONE COME ON IF THEY FEEL IT BE. I SAY MAYBE THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT TIME IF YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE. YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME BUT MAYBE NOT NOW BUT MOST PEOPLE SAY YES, I WANT TO TELL YOU ABOUT THIS VILE TIME IN MY LIFE, PLEASE GIVE ME AN OUT. I THINK THAT IS THE GREAT GIFT UP PODCAST, THE LEVEL OF DEPTH WE CAN GO INTO. MAINSTREAM MEDIA AS UNABLE -- HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT. I THINK PODCAST GIVES US THE LOVELY CONTRAST WHICH IS GREAT CONVERSATION THAT FEELS REAL AND CONVERSATIONS WE MAY HAVE LATE NIGHT WITH A FRIEND. >>ALLISON: FINAL ONE MINUTE HERE. I DO HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION, THIS IS FROM HELEN. THE QUESTION IS, WHAT WAS AN EARLY EXPERIENCE WHERE YOU LEARNED THAT LANGUAGE HAD POWER? >> KATHERINE: THAT IS A WONDERFUL QUESTION. I AM GOING TO TELL YOU A REALLY EMBARRASSING ANECDOTE. WHEN I WAS ABOUT 6-YEARS-OLD, FOR OUR SCHOOL ASSEMBLY THEY INVITED THE LOCALS AND AMEN CAME IN AND ASKED US SOME CAME IN AND THE KID SAID WHAT COLOR ARE YOUR SOCKS, WHAT DID YOU HAVE FOR DINNER, THESE ARE WHAT SCHOOLCHILDREN WOULD ASK. THE HEAD TEACHER SAID, THE NEXT QUESTION AS TO BE A GOOD QUESTION. CAN SOMEONE THINK OF AN INTELLIGENT QUESTION. I PUT MY HAND UP AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GREAT QUESTION I SAID, DO YOU BITE YOUR NAILS? I WANTED TO NOTE THE PRESSURE WAS GETTING TO HIM. I GOT THAT OUT OF THE ROOM FOR ASKING THE QUESTION. >>ALLISON: REALLY! >> KATHERINE: AND I HAVE RESENTED THAT EVER SINCE. >>ALLISON: DID THEY ANSWER YOU? >> KATHERINE: NO. I THINK A REALLY WELL-TIMED CLEVER QUESTION LIKE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN VERY INSIGHTFUL FOR THE INTERIOR LIFE OF THIS MAN. >>ALLISON: I THINK THAT IS A WONDERFUL QUESTION. UNFORTUNATELY, OUR TIME HAS COME TO AN END. THIS HAS BEEN LOVELY. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO JOINED US AND SENT IN YOUR QUESTIONS, IT WAS WONDERFUL. >> KATHERINE: THINK YOU, IT WAS LOVELY. >>ALLISON: THANK YOU. [END OF SESSION] >> >>ALEXANDER: WELCOME TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FESTIVAL I AM ALEXANDER. I AM HERE TO TALK TO YIYUN LI AND DOUGLAS STUART ABOUT THEIR NEW NOVELS. THERE THEY ARE. >>ALEXANDER: IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SET THIS UP, AND I THOUGHT I WOULD GIVE YOU EACH SOME OF THE SAME QUESTIONS AND YOU CAN TAKE TURNS ANSWERING. THE FIRST ONE IS A BIG PICTURE, PHILOSOPHICAL PICTURE, WHICH IS, IF ALL NOVELS ARE WRITTEN OUT OF DISCONTENT OF SOME KIND, AND ARE INHERENTLY A CRITIQUE OF THE WORLD, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS UNDER YOUR I? IN THIS BOOK. >>YIYUN: DOUGLAS YOU CAN GO FIRST. >>DOUGLAS: THAT WAS A DIRTY MOVE YIYUN BUT I WILL GO. [ LAUGHTER ] I THINK WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO WAS WRITE A POST INDUSTRIAL OR A NOVEL ABOUT SOCIETY FEELING AND NOT TO CENTER HETEROSEXUAL MEN. WE THINK ABOUT WELSH AND WE EVEN THINK ABOUT OTHERS BUT, NOT OFTEN ENOUGH DO THEY FOCUS ON THE PRIVATE LIVES OF WOMEN AND THEIR CHILDREN AND ALSO CERTAINLY CLEAR CHARACTERS. FOR ME THERE WAS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF BOTH STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE AND LOVE AND HUMOR AND HOPE IN THE VOICES THAT YOU NEVER HEARD. BUT IT WAS REALLY WRAPPED IN A LOT OF SILENCE. >>YIYUN: THAT IS A GREAT ANSWER. I WANT TO EXPOUND ON IT. FOR ME, IT IS ABOUT TAKING A LONG LOOK AT LIFE AND HISTORY, FROM MY BOOK THERE IS A WOMAN WHO IS 81-YEARS-OLD LOOKING AT HER LIFE, ONE KEY MOMENT WAS THE LOSS OF HER CHILD. THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS TO WRITE ABOUT LOSS, BUT I THINK WHAT I WAS WRITING THE BOOK I REALLY WANTED TO HAVE THE CHARACTER TAKE A LONG LOOK, 40 YEARS AFTER SHE TOOK LOSS TO HER CHILD. I WANTED TO COME FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, AND TO LOOK AT AMERICAN HISTORY. SO, I DON'T WANT MY CHARACTERS TO GET STUCK IN THE DRAMATIC MOMENT, I WANTED TO MOVE THE CHARACTERS PAST 12 MOMENT AND INTO THE FUTURE. -- AND INTO THE FUTURE. >>ALEXANDER: NEXT QUESTION IS, RELATED TO AN EXPERIENCE I HAD WITH MY OWN BOOKS, I AM ASSUMING THAT IT IS A COMMON EXPERIENCE, MAYBE THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED TO YOU BUT, THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE -- SOME POINT AFTER THE BOOK COMES OUT WHERE SOMEONE WHO HAS READ THE BOOK, SAYS SOMETHING TO YOU THAT REVEALS SOMETHING THAT YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOU MADE BUT NOW YOU CAN SEE IT WITHIN THE BOOK. I WONDERED, IF YOU HAD HAD THAT EXPERIENCE WITH THIS BOOK YET, AND IF SO, IF YOU WOULD SHARE IT? >>YIYUN: I WILL GO FIRST DOUGLAS. I THINK, THAT MOMENT CAME ACTUALLY BEFORE THE BOOK WAS PUBLISHED. I THINK THE FIRST DRAFT, BETWEEN THE FIRST DRAFT OF THE FINAL DRAFT. I THINK IT WAS JUST MY EDITOR READING IT AND HE SAID, THIS WOMAN HAS AN ENTIRE YEAR BODY IN A CAST WITHOUT ANY VULNERABILITY, AND WHERE IS THE, I JUST REALIZE, WHEN WE WRITE ABOUT CHARACTERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WRITE ABOUT CHARACTERS WITH SOME PAINFUL EXPERIENCE, MY INSTINCT IS TO BE PROTECTIVE AND NOT SHOW TOO MUCH EMOTION. TOO NOT SHOW TOO MUCH RESPONSE. I THINK WHAT THE EDITOR POINTS OUT, THIS WOMAN IS INDESTRUCTIBLE WHICH IS PROBABLY TRUE BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, EVEN THE MOST UN- DESTRUCTIBLE CHARACTER HAVE THE MOMENT OF DOUBT AND DISBELIEF, THOSE THINGS ARE NEEDED -- I'M SORRY THEY REALLY DO NEED A READER TO POINT THAT OUT. >>ALEXANDER: DOUGLAS? >>DOUGLAS: AGNES IS A BRIGHT AND FUNNY WOMAN BUT SHE IS ALSO DAMAGED AND WE KNOW SHE STARTS TO DISINTEGRATE AND TURN TO ALCOHOLISM. I WANTED TO SHOW AGNES AS COMPLEX AS A CHARACTER AS I COULD MANAGE SO SHE COULD HAVE MANY FACETS. SHE WAS JUST NEVER A MOTHER SHE WAS A FRIEND AND A FOLLOW, SHE WAS A SPURNED WIFE, SHE WAS MANY DIFFERENT THINGS. IT'S REALLY FUNNY BECAUSE A LOT OF THE MISOGYNY HAPPENS BETWEEN WOMEN EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A MISOGYNIST TIME ANY PATRIARCHY. WHAT IS SURPRISING TO ME, AND THIS IS NOT CONDEMNATION IS WITH THE HARDNESS ON AGNES. SHE LOSES HER FUTURE IN HER LIFE AND HER LOVE AND HER CHILDREN. YET PEOPLE, ARE QUITE ANGRY WITH HER. IT'S USUALLY FEMALE READERS WHICH I THINK IS FASCINATING BECAUSE, THEY ALSO SAY THINGS LIKE SHE REALLY DID NOT LOVE HER CHILDREN. I THINK SHE REALLY DID LOVE HER CHILDREN SHE PROBABLY DID NOT LOVE HERSELF VERY MUCH. THAT WAS SOMETHING I WAS NOT QUITE PREPARED FOR. >>ALEXANDER: THAT IS FASCINATING ESPECIALLY YOUR RELATION THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT MISOGYNY AND WRITING THE NOVEL. FOR THOSE OF US WHO WRITE NOVELS, IT IS PARTLY TO TRY AND LEARN SOMETHING, WHETHER WE HAVE EXPRESSED THAT TO OURSELVES OR NOT THERE IS A CURIOSITY THAT DRIVES US, WHAT IS THIS LIKE OR WHAT IS THAT LIKE. I AM WONDERING, WHAT YOU FOUND, IF IT IS WHAT YOU SET OUT TO FIND OR IF YOU SURPRISE YOURSELF OR WAS IT A MIX OF BOTH? >>DOUGLAS: I WILL ANSWER FIRST TIME. YOU KNOW IT IS A WORK OF FICTION NOT MY CHILDHOOD BUT I AM ALSO CLEAR THAT I AM THE SON OF A SINGLE MOTHER WHO ALSO SUFFERED THROUGH ADDICTION AND LOST THE STRUGGLE. I GREW UP AS POOR AS A CHARACTER AND IS ISOLATED AND QUEER AND JUST SEPARATE FROM THE WORLD. BUT I THINK WHEN YOU ARE A CHILD OF TRAUMA, SOMETIMES WHEN YOU GO TO WRITE FICTION YOU CENTER THE CHILD AND YOURSELF AND THAT. THE THING THAT ACTUALLY TOOK ME TEN YEARS TO WRITE WAS TAKING THE YOUNG BOY OUT OF THE HORROR OF THE STORY BECAUSE IT WAS FAR TOO COMPLEX OF A TIME FOR EVERYTHING TO FILTER THROUGH THIS 8-YEAR-OLD. WHAT I REALLY NEEDED TO DO WAS TRY AND COME TO A POINT OF EMPATHY WITH PERHAPS THE WORLD AND THE PEOPLE, AND THE DEMONS CAUSING THE HURT FOR ME AND MY PERSONAL CHILDHOOD AND THE CHARACTERS IN THE BOOK. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ASKED ME TOO WRITE WAS CATHARTIC BUT IT WASN'T BECAUSE I WAS GIVING A WAY PAIN IT WAS CATHARTIC BECAUSE I CAME TO UNDERSTAND THE ORIGINS OF THE PAIN AND WHERE THE HURT STARTED. THE TRUTH BECAME THE HEART HAD NO ORIGIN BECAUSE IT HEARD EVERYWHERE. THE MEN WERE HURTING WOMEN AND THEY WERE HURTING THE CHILDREN. IT WAS BOUNCING AROUND. WHEN I CAME TO THAT REALIZATION, IT CHANGED THE BOOK FOR ME BUT IT WAS ALSO SOMETHING THAT ME AS THE WRITER AND THE MAN. >>ALEXANDER: OKAY. YIYUN DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO REFLECT? >>YIYUN: IT IS A DIFFICULT QUESTION BECAUSE, I THINK WHEN WE START A NOVEL, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS ABOUT THE CHARACTERS THAT WE DON'T KNOW, AT THE END OF WRITING A NOVEL YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR CHARACTERS A LITTLE BIT BETTER THAN IN THE BEGINNING. I THINK FOR ME, IT GOES BACK TO A TIME, I THINK I HAVE SAID THIS IN AN INTERVIEW. UNFORTUNATELY, THE MAIN CHARACTER, THE MOTHER CHARACTER IN THE NOVEL, BY ACCIDENT, MY LIFE OVERLAPPED WITH HER LIFE IN ONE MOMENT. I LOST A CHILD AND WHEN I RODE HER INTO THE NOVEL AND HER LOSS OF A CHILD. I THINK THAT ACTUALLY STOPPED ME FROM WRITING BECAUSE I DID NOT WANT MY EXPERIENCE TO OVERSHADOW, TO TAKE NARRATIVE OF THE CHARACTERS EXPERIENCE. I DIDN'T WANT MY LIFE TO BLEED INTO THE CHARACTERS LIFE. I THINK IN THE END, WHEN I WAS ABLE TO CONTINUE IT WAS MORE ABOUT FINDING WHAT COULD BE DIFFERENT FOR ANOTHER MOTHER WHO HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE. I GUESS MY CURIOSITY IS REALLY, I WAS IN THE MOMENT OF LOSS WRITING ABOUT ANOTHER WOMAN 40 YEARS AFTER THE LOSS. I THINK MY CURIOSITY IS HOW TIME PASSES FOR HER AND HOW SHE LIVES HER LIFE. AND BY WRITING A NOVEL, I GOT A LITTLE BIT OF AN ANSWER FOR THAT SHE HAD OTHER CHILDREN SHE HAD OTHER THINGS SHE HAD A GARDEN, SHE COOKED, IT WAS REALLY TO MAKE SURE, MAKING SURE EVERY DAY WAS FILLED WITH ACTIVITIES. THAT PROBABLY ANSWERED MY CURIOSITY YEARS LATER. >>ALEXANDER: YOU ARE BOTH AT VERY DIFFERENT STAGES OF YOUR CAREERS. DOUGLAS JUST STARTING OUT, YIYUN, YOU ARE IN THE FULL MIDDLE. >>YIYUN: FULL MIDDLE. >>ALEXANDER: MIDCAREER ARTISTS. I WONDER DOUGLAS IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION FOR YIYUN, DO YOU? >>DOUGLAS: I THINK ONE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU SUSTAIN A CAREER, WHAT HAS BEEN THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR YOU BOOK AFTER BOOK TO CONTINUE GOING? >>YIYUN: THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION. IT IS SURPRISING JUST TO REALIZE, SOMETIMES I STILL FEEL LIKE A YOUNG WRITER LIKE I JUST STARTED AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU HAVE THESE BOOKS. I THINK PATIENTS -- WHEN I WAS WORKING ON MY FIRST NOVEL I REMEMBERED THERE WAS A MOMENT WHEN I THOUGHT, I CANNOT WAIT TO FINISH THIS. I AM DYING FOR THIS BOOK TO BE DONE INSTEAD OF JUST WORKING THROUGH THIS TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE. THIS LONG WRITING EXPERIENCE. I THINK AFTER A FEW BOOKS, THAT FEELING IS GONE, AND IT IS BECOMING PART OF AN AWARENESS OF WHATEVER I'M WORKING ON WILL BE READ IN FIVE YEARS, MAYBE IN TEN YEARS, AND THAT IS ALL RIGHT. I DON'T KNOW, ONCE I REALIZED THAT LIFE IS BECOMING EASIER FOR ME AS A WRITER. >>ALEXANDER: MAYBE A SECOND PART TO THE QUESTION, HOW DO YOU PROCESS PRAISE AND CRITICISM AND STAY TRUE TO THE THINK YOU ARE DOING OR DO YOU LET IT AFFECT YOU? >>YIYUN: CERTAINLY I THINK AT THE BEGINNING I MAY HAVE HEARD BOTH PRAISE AND THE CRITICISM A LITTLE MORE THAN I DO NOW. I'M LEADING A READING GROUP NOW AND LAST YEAR, JUST READING WAR AND PEACE WITH MANY READERS AND ONE THING I LEARNED, EACH READER HAS A DIFFERENT READING OF THE SAME BOOK. I THINK A LOT OF READERS CRITICISMS ARE WHAT THEY WANT -- I THINK WHEN THEY'RE READING THE BOOK OR WHAT THEY NEED FROM THE BOOK -- CRITICISM, I FEEL THAT IT'S ACTUALLY A BLESSING THAT WE WRITE A BOOK AND FIVE YEARS LATER, I DON'T KNOW DOUGLAS HOW LONG DID YOU WORK ON YOUR FIRST NOVEL? IT'S A LONG TIME BEFORE THE BOOK COMES OUT AND BY THEN, I FEEL LIKE MY CREATIVE ENERGY, MY ACTIVITY HAS MOVED ON. PRAISES ARE ALL RIGHT, CRITICISMS ALL RIGHT, I'VE LEARNED THAT FROM MY MENTOR WILLIAM TREVOR, HE SAID WHEN HE WAS A YOUNG WRITER, EVERY TIME A BOOK CAME OUT, HE WOULD GO TO THE PUB AND ORDER DOUBLE WHISKEY AND GET DRUNK OFF OF THE TERRIBLE REVEALS. THEN HE REALIZED, AFTER A WHILE, HE HAS HAD A LONG CAREER, HE SAID THE PRAISES DO NOT HELP YOU WRITE BETTER AND THE CRITICISM RARELY HELPS YOU EITHER. WHEN HE SAID THAT, I FOUND IT ENCOURAGING. I'M JUST CURIOUS, I'M SORRY, HOW LONG DID YOU WORK ON THE BOOK? >>DOUGLAS: IT TOOK ME TEN YEARS. IT TOOK ME TEN YEARS TO WRITE THE BOOK BUT THE STRANGE THING IS I DID NOT HAVE A CIRCLE OF WRITER FRIEND SO THE TEN YEARS WAS TRULY SPENT IN ISOLATION. THE ONLY PERSON RIGHT IT WAS MY HUSBAND, AND HE WAS ENORMOUSLY HELPFUL WITH THE EDITING AND ENCOURAGEMENT AND MAKING SURE THAT I ATE AT REGULAR INTERVALS. IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY LONELY PLACE AND BECAUSE I CAME FROM A DIFFERENT CREATIVE INDUSTRY I CAME FROM INDUSTRIAL DESIGN, I LOVE THE ISOLATION BECAUSE I WAS SURE THAT WHAT I WAS CREATING WAS ONLY FOR MYSELF. AS I ADVANCED I FOUND MYSELF LONGING FOR THAT ISOLATION. I BELONGED FOR A CIRCLE WRITER FRIENDS AND THE WRITING COMMUNITY BOOK CREATIVELY I LIKE TO RETURN TO THE PLACE WHERE IS JUST ME IN CONVERSATION WITH MY WORK. >>ALEXANDER: WHAT WAS GOING TO ASK IF YOU HAD ANY QUESTIONS FOR DOUGLAS. YOU DID THAT BEAUTIFULLY. I WONDERED, IF, AS THE MORE SENIOR WRITER SHALL WE SAY, OF THE TWO OF YOU, IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST DEBUTED? >>YIYUN: CORRECT. I WONDER, OKAY, THIS IS SUCH A NOSY QUESTION DOUGLAS, YOU JUST HAVE TO FORGIVE ME. DO YOU THINK WRITING A SECOND NOVEL, HAS THE RECEPTION FOR CHUCKYGGY BAIN, I KNOW IT IS D, GIVE US A SENSE OF HOW THE SECOND NOVEL IS. >>DOUGLAS: ONE STRANGE THING ABOUT MY CAREER IS MY SECOND NOVEL WAS FINISHED BEFORE THE FIRST ONE WAS PUBLISHED. IT WAS EDITED. IT WILL HAVE THAT SENSE OF, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I WROTE ONLY FOR MYSELF WITHOUT THE COMFORT OF IGNORANCE, LET'S CALL IT, CERTAINLY WRITING MY THIRD NOVEL I HEAR A LOT OF VOICES IN THE ROOM AND I FEEL THE PRESSURE. I FEEL IT LIKE I WANT TO MAKE SURE THE READERS HAS THE SAME EMOTIONAL CONNECTION. I LIKE TAKING THE TIME LIKE YOU SAID TO REALLY BUILD THIS WORLD AND IMMERSE THE READERS WITH PEOPLE THEY CAN TOUCH AND REALLY FEEL. I AM FINDING THAT HARDER BUT I AM IN A STRANGE SITUATION WHERE BEEN WRITING FOR A LONG TIME, BUT I HAVE ONLY BEEN PUBLISHED THE. -- I HAVE ONLY BEEN PUBLISHED RECENTLY. >>ALEXANDER: IT'S ALMOST AS IF YOU ARE DOING A SURPRISE ATTACK ON PUBLISHING. [ LAUGHTER ] >>DOUGLAS: WE WILL SEE. >>ALEXANDER: IT REMINDS ME OF SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE DID BEFORE. SHE SAID THAT, SHE HAD WRITTEN A GREAT DEAL BEFORE SHE WAS PUBLISHED. IT ALLOWED HER TO GIVE OFF THE IMPRESSION OF A CERTAIN MOMENTUM WHEN IN FACT, ALL OF THESE THINGS HAD ALREADY BEEN WRITTEN EARLIER. OKAY, WE HAVE SOME QUESTIONS, THAT ARE FROM THE READERS. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE WATCHING HAVE NOT PUT IN A QUESTION, PLEASE DO. THE FIRST ONE IS DELIGHTFUL, YOU HIDE ANY SECRETS IN YOUR BOOKS THAT ONLY A FEW PEOPLE WILL FIND? AND ADDITIONAL QUESTION WOULD BE, WHAT IS IT? COULD YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE. >>YIYUN: I DO THAT ALL OF THE TIME. MOSTLY, NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO DETECT IT BUT MYSELF. I THINK IT IS JUST PART OF WRITING. WRITING IS A LONG PROCESS BUT EVERY DAY, JUST PUTTING DAILY LIFE AND MAKING A MARKER OF MY DAILY LIFE. IT IS ALWAYS VERY MINOR. THE MOST MINOR THINGS. FOR INSTANCE, A BIRD, A GOOSE FLIES PAST AND I MAY HAVE THE BOOTH IN THE SPACE OF WRITING, BUT IT ONLY MATTERS TO ME. I DID HAVE A MISREADING OF A GOOD BOOK CALLED THE BETTER BATTLEFIELD. BY REBECCA WEST. I WAS READING IT AND I THOUGHT IT SAID BUTTERCUP BATTLEFIELD. IT BAFFLED ME SO MUCH BECAUSE IT INTRIGUED ME. BUT THEN I REALIZED THAT IS NOT WHAT IT SAID. I'M SORRY IT SOUNDS LIKE A STORY TITLE. SO THEN I TOOK IT AS A STORY TITLE, THE BUTTERCUP BATTLEFIELD. >>DOUGLAS: I THINK THE ONLY THING I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO AND HIDE, WHEN WE NEED CHUGGY AND I CALL HIM A PASTOR AND WHEN WE GO BACK IN THE BOOK WE REALIZES GRANDMOTHER HAS HAD A SEXUAL AFFAIR. THEY DON'T KNOW THIS ABOUT EACH OTHER BUT THERE IS THE CONNECTION AND I DID IT DELIBERATELY. WHAT I WAS ACTUALLY DOING WITH CHUGGYHUGGY WAS USING CHARACTERT MAY CONNECT. LIKE NEXT NOVEL IS A DIFFERENT SET OF CHARACTERS BUT THE SAME. I WANTED TO CREATE THIS LANDSCAPE WHERE ALL OF THESE VOICES WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME SORT OF TIME AND THE BOOKS ARE IN CONVERSATION WITH EACH OTHER. >>ALEXANDER: THAT'S BEAUTIFUL. WHEN DOES THIS NEXT BOOK COME OUT DOUGLAS? >>DOUGLAS: IT PUBLISHES IN ENGLISH IN APRIL IT IS CALLED YOUNG MONGO, IT IS A 50-YEAR-OLD YOUNG MAN WHO IS FIGHTING FOR A TERRITORIAL GANG AND FALLS IN LOVE WITH A C IT CATHOLIC BOY I MEAN 815-YEAR-OLD BOY A 15-YEAR-OLD BOY. THIS IS MY BOOK TO DO THIS. >>ALEXANDER: YIYUN YOU HAVE SPOKEN OF YOUR READING GROUP, IT IS ALMOST LIKE A MOVEMENT, DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT, ARE NOT? >>YIYUN: THE BOOK JUST CAME OUT LAST WEEK, WHAT HAPPENED, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC I WORRIED THAT EVERYONE WAS LOST. I READ WAR AND PEACE EVERY YEAR SO I SENT OUT AN INVITATION THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA. I THOUGHT, MAYBE THERE WOULD BE TEN PEOPLE READING WAR AND PEACE WITH ME BUT 3,000 PEOPLE STARTED READING WITH ME, AND WE READ THE WHOLE BOOK IN 85 DAYS. MY PLAN WAS AFTER READING WAR AND PEACE WE WOULD EXIT THE PANDEMIC, THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. SO WE COLLECTED READING JOURNALS. I STARTED A SECOND READING, HOPEFULLY THIS TIME AFTER 85 DAYS WE WILL BE IN A BETTER PLACE. >>ALEXANDER: A FEW MORE QUESTIONS HEAR FROM THE READERS. TWO OF THE READERS HAVE ASKED ABOUT WRITER'S BLOCK. THE FIRST QUESTION IS DO YOU BELIEVE AND WRITERS BLOCK, AND THE SECOND THING, WHAT STRATEGIES DO YOU USE TO GET PAST WRITERS BLOCK, WHAT YOU DO TO CLEAR YOUR MIND? >>DOUGLAS: I DON'T KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT WRITER'S BLOCK BUT I DO KNOW THAT, I TRIED TO APPROACH MY WORK WITH A DISCIPLINE AND HOLD MYSELF TO PRODUCING SOMETHING. I KNOW WHEN I AM ANGRY, TIRED, DISTRACTED OR SOMETHING THAT I WILL REGRET AND I ALLOW MYSELF TO STEP AWAY. I TRIED TO BE AWARE OF MYSELF AND WHAT IT IS I WILL PRODUCE. I ALSO FEEL IF YOU CANNOT WRITE FOR UP TO THREE WEEKS, THAT IS OKAY, YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOURSELF. YOU ALSO HAVE TO, I FIND I HAVE TO KNOW WHEN I'M JUST TRYING TO CUT SCHOOL AND I HAVE TO APPLY MYSELF TO THE DESK. SOMETIMES I THINK, NOT WRITING IS BENEFICIAL, I THINK WE HAVE TO DO SOME WALKING, THINKING, WE HAVE TO ENGAGE IN THE WORLD AND MEET PEOPLE AND LISTEN TO THEM. THAT IS ALL I CAN SAY. I TRIED TO KNOW MYSELF AND WHEN I AM TRYING TO FORCE IT AND WHEN IT WILL NOT COME. >>YIYUN: I VERY MUCH AGREE WITH DOUGLAS. I DON'T KNOW IF I BELIEVE IN WRITER'S BLOCK BUT I USED TO WRITE EVERY DAY BUT I DON'T ANYMORE. YOU HAVE ALL SORTS OF OBLIGATIONS IN LIFE. I THINK, WHAT MATTERS TO ME, IF THERE'S A READER, I HAVE NEVER HAD A READER'S BLOCK BUT IF I DID I WOULD WORRY. READING IS MORE IMPORTANT, READING EVERY DAY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WRITING. I AGREE WITH DOUGLAS, IT IS A DISCIPLINE. SOMETIMES, I WAS TALKING TO A YOUNG WRITER SHE SAID I ONLY HAVE TWO HOURS IN THE MORNING, I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME. I THOUGHT TWO HOURS IS A LONG TIME FOR ME. SOMETIMES I ONLY HAVE 30 MINUTES. I WILL WRITE JUST ONE SENTENCE. JUST ONE BEAUTIFUL SENTENCE AND THAT IS IT. AS LONG AS I CAN WRITE ONE SENTENCE, THAT IS NOT A BLOCK. THE OTHER THING I DO THAT IS HELPFUL, I DID HAVE MOMENTS IN MY LIFE WHERE I HAD DIFFICULTY WRITING, SO I WOULD HAND COPY, I WOULD AND COPY WAR AND PEACE PASSAGES AND I ALSO CAN COPY OTHER BOOKS THAT I LOVE, JUST TO HAVE THE I/HAND CORRELATION TO KEEP THE MIND GOING. THAT HAVE BEEN TREMENDOUSLY HELPFUL FOR ME. >>ALEXANDER: WONDERFUL, WE HAVE ONE MINUTE LEFT, CAN YOU EACH NAME A ROLE MODEL? >>YIYUN: MY ROLE MODEL IS CHARLES SCHWARTZ WHO DID THE PEANUTS GETS. HE DID EVERY DAY FOR SO MANY YEARS. HE DID EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF. I WOULD SAY, HE IS MY BIGGEST ROLE MODEL. >>DOUGLAS: I THINK MY ROLE MODEL HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE WORKING CLASS WOMEN THAT ME AND THE COMMUNITY AROUND ME. WHEN YIYUN SAID 30 MINUTES THAT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF TIME. I SAW THESE WOMEN HAVING TO DO SO MUCH AND THEY NEVER HAD TIME FOR ANYTHING AND YET THEY COULD MANIFEST WHATEVER THEY NEEDED TO DO. IN FACT I THINK THAT WAS REALLY STRONG. THERE'S SO MUCH STRENGTH THERE. >>ALEXANDER: THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH, THANK YOU EVERYONE WHO JOINED US TODAY. THIS WAS A WONDERFUL CONVERSATION AND YOU DID IT BEAUTIFULLY WITH MY QUESTIONS. [ LAUGHTER ] IT WAS A DELIGHT TO SPEAK WITH YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH. >>YIYUN: THANK YOU. >>DOUGLAS: THANK YOU. [END OF SESSION] >> SPONSORED BY THE MUSEUM OF INSTITUTE AND LIBRARY SERVICES. >>ROSWELL: HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS BOOK FAIR. WE APPRECIATE THAT YOU HAVE JOINED US THIS AFTERNOON. WE WILL SPEAK TO AUTHOR, COMEDIAN, MATH WIZARD AND HOST, THAT PARKER ABOUT HIS BOOK HUMBLE PI: WHEN MATH GOES WRONG IN THE REAL WORLD. YOU WILL HAVE OPPORTUNITIES TO ASK MATCH YOUR QUESTIONS, SO SEND THEM OUR WAY. LET'S GET RIGHT TO IT. MATT, WELCOME IS JOINING US FROM THE UK. I SHOULD SAY I FINISHED YOUR BOOK LAST FRIDAY. BUT BEFORE WE GET YOUR BOOK, THE THEME OF THE FESTIVAL, WHAT BOOKS OPENED THE WORLD TO YOU? >>MATT: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE KIND INTRODUCTION ROZ WELL. THAT IS THE THIRD TIME I HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED AS A MATH WIZARD AND I WILL STIPULATE THAT FROM NOW ON. I HIGHLY APPRECIATE THAT, IT'S NOT THAT FAR FROM MY ANSWER TO THE NEXT QUESTION OF, WHAT OPENED THE WORLD. I ACTUALLY GREW UP IN AUSTRALIA I LIVED THERE FOR THE FIRST DECADES OF MY LIFE THEN I MOVED TO THE UK WHERE I AM NOW. GROWING UP, IN AUSTRALIA I USED TO READ AS A KID, A LOT OF FICTION FROM AROUND THE WORLD, I READ ENCYCLOPEDIA BROWN THE U.S. SERIES. SOMETHING ABOUT MY BROTHER THE BIG BRAIN. SO, A LOT OF MY IMPRESSION AS A CHILD IN AUSTRALIA WHO NEVER TRAVEL TO OTHER COUNTRIES, WAS BASED ON FICTION I READ AT THE TIME. GROWING UP I READ A LOT, WHEN I MOVED TO THE UK, I DID NOT REALIZE, HOW MUCH I DID NOT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN WHAT WAS THE MAGIC FARAWAY TREE FANTASY, AND LITERALLY ENGLAND. THE FIRST TIME I WENT, TO THE SEASIDE AND THEY HAD BUCKETS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I HAD TO WORK OUT WHAT WAS REAL AND WHAT WAS FANTASY. TO THIS DAY I STILL THINK ABOUT THAT. I FEEL LIKE MY CHILDHOOD BOOK READING, OPEN THE WORLD TO ME BUT I WAS NOT CAREFUL ENOUGH TO WORK OUT WHAT COULD BE TRUSTED AND WHAT COULD NOT. >>ROSWELL: LET'S GET TO YOUR BOOK. YOUR BOOK OPENED MY EYES TO A LINE OF MATH PROBLEMS THAT HAVE GONE ON IN HISTORY. YOU TAKE A LITTLE TONGUE-IN-CHEEK APPROACH TO THE BOOK BUT A LOT OF IT IS QUITE SERIOUS. WHAT WAS THE GENESIS OF THE BOOK. WHAT MADE YOU THINK I NEED TO WRITE ABOUT THIS. >>MATT: APPLE PIE IS THE SECOND BOOK I WROTE THE FIRST ONE IS THINGS TO MAKE AND DOING THE FOURTH DIMENSION. IT WAS BECAUSE AS A HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER, IT MADE ME BECOME A WIZARD AND IT WAS FINDING ENGAGING WAYS TO COMMUNICATE MATH TO PEOPLE. MY FIRST BOOK WAS AIMED AT THE MAP CURIOUS, SEMI- NERD, WHERE I COULD COMMUNICATE. IT WAS AMAZING HOW THINGS IN THE FOURTH DIMENSION DESCRIBES MATHEMATICS. THE BOOK DID WELL. IT DID GOOD FOR A MATH BOOK, AVERAGE FOR A BOOK. MY PUBLISHER WAS LIKE, WHAT CAN WE DO IF YOU WANT TO HIT A WIDER AUDIENCE. THIS I WAS INTERESTED IN HOW COULD I FIND A VEHICLE WHERE A BIGGER RANGE OF PEOPLE, WOULD WANT TO READ THE BOOK. EVERYONE ENJOYS A STORY OF SOMETHING GONE WRONG. SO I PITCHED THE BOOK, WHAT ABOUT A BOOK ABOUT THE GREATEST MATH MISTAKES, WHEN MATH HAS GONE WRONG, AND THEY SAID THAT IS SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW PEOPLE WANT TO READ. I THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT EXCUSE FOR ME TOO TALK ABOUT, WHEN IT GOES WRONG, I GET TO TALK ABOUT THE INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF MATH HOLDING SOCIETY TOGETHER THAT WE NEVER NOTICE. OR WE RARELY NOTICE. >>ROSWELL: SOME OF THAT, WHEN YOU SAY KEEPING THE WORLD TOGETHER SOME OF THE EXAMPLES YOU MADE WORD LITERALLY KEEPING THINGS TOGETHER FROM BRIDGES, ARCHITECTURE, TO THE SPACE SHUTTLE TO JUST ADVERTISING CAMPAIGNS. I JOKED ABOUT IT EARLIER A LOT OF IT IS TONGUE-IN-CHEEK BUT A MISCALCULATION CAN HAVE DEADLY CONSEQUENCES. HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO BALANCE? >>MATT: THAT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE. THE BOOK WAS MEANT TO BE A COMEDY BOOK ABOUT MATHEMATICS. THAT IS WHAT I PROMISED THE PUBLISHERS THEN I THOUGHT, THERE ARE THINGS LIKE ENGINEERING WITH BRIDGES AND MEDICINE, IT ALL COMES TOGETHER, IF THINGS GO WRONG PEOPLE DIED. I CANNOT HAVE EVERY SECOND-STORY AND EVERYONE DIES. SO PARTLY, I WAS STRATEGIC WITH THE STORIES ARE PUT IN THERE. NO ALL OF THE AVIATION STORIES, NO ONE DIES. EVERY STORY INVOLVING A PLANE, NO ONE DIES IN ANY OF THE PLANE STORIES. I DID NOT WANT TO SHY AWAY FROM THE SERIOUSNESS. IT WAS JUST A CASE OF BEING CAREFUL OF WHAT I PUT INTO THE STORIES WHERE PEOPLE DIE, HAVING A REASON FOR CHOOSING THOSE STORIES WHICH I THINK IS IMPORTANT AND BEING RESPECTFUL. PEOPLE DIED, AS WELL AS THE ENGINEERING WITH THE BRIDGES AND BUILDINGS COLLAPSE. THERE HAS BEEN MISTAKES WHERE A SIMPLE LINE OF CODE WAS WRONG IN SOFTWARE, FOR A MACHINE THAT WAS DOING RADIOTHERAPY FOR CANCERS, IT CAUSED ITS BOLD THEFTS OF THE WAY THE CODE WAS WRITTEN. IT'S TERRIFYING BUT, I WOULD BE DOING A DISSERVICE TO NOT BRING THAT UP AND MAKE SURE, ON ONE HAND I AM SAYING IT IS FIRING TO MAKE MISTAKES WE ARE ALL BAD AT MATH, BUT ON THE FLIPSIDE IF IT IS A BIG SITUATION, YOU HAVE TO GET IT) I FELT I HAD TO PUT THAT IN. >>ROSWELL: YOU DIDN'T HOLD PUNCHES WITH SOME OF THE EXAMPLES THAT YOU USE. YOU USED NASA, THE UK GOVERNMENT, MCDONALD'S, PEPSI, BRITISH AIRWAYS, WHAT KIND OF A REACTION DID YOU GET FROM THE COMPANIES AND THE GOVERNMENT? >>MATT: YOU KNOW WHAT, IT WAS INTERESTING TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRIVATE COMPANIES AND GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. SO ANYTHING WITH A PRIVATE COMPANY, I NEVER GOT ANYTHING OFFICIALLY BACK FROM A PRIVATE COMPANY. THINGS LIKE THE PEPSI CASE AND THIS WAS A CASE WHERE THEY MISCALCULATED A NUMBER -- >>ROSWELL: I LOVE THIS DO YOU WANT TO SUMMARIZE IT FOR THE PEOPLE WATCHING. >>MATT: THE SHORT VERSION IS THEY HAD AN AD IN 1995 WHERE IF YOU COLLECTED PEPSI POINTS, YOU COULD GET A LEATHER JACKET OR A HAT OR ALL OF THESE SORTS OF THINGS, I DON'T HAVE IT WITHIN REACH, I THOUGHT I HAD SOME OF THE IMAGES FROM THAT. HERE WE GO. IF I CAN GET THIS TO WORK. HERE WE GO. THIS IS FROM THE COMMERCIAL THAT RAN IN 1995. IF YOU COLLECTED 75 PEPSI POINTS YOU GOT A T-SHIRT. IF YOU COLLECTED 450-POINT YOU GOT A LEATHER JACKET, SUNGLASSES, IT WAS THE '90s. BUT THEN THEY WANTED TO END THE ADD ON A HILARIOUS JOKE, SO AFTER THE SUNGLASSES THEY HAD LIKE A CHECK. FOR 7 MILLION PEPSI POINTS YOU COULD GET THIS MILITARY JET, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY BUT THE JETS AT THE TIME COST THE MILITARY 20 MILLION MILITARY DOLLARS. AND PEPSI POINTS AS LONG AS YOU GOT ENOUGH, YOU COULD PUT IN A CHECK FOR THE REST IN THEY WERE ONLY 10 CENTS EACH. THE JET WOULD ONLY COST YOU $700,000 FOR A 20 MILLION-DOLLAR JET. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RESALE IS FOR THESE THINGS. BUT IT IS A GOOD DEAL. CONSULT SOMEONE DID IT. SOMEONE FILLED IN THE FORM, PUTTING THE CHECK CHECK, FILLED IT OUT AND HAD TO GO TO COURT AND PEPSI HAD TO ARGUE THAT THE AD WAS CLEARLY A JOKE. IT WASN'T A SERIOUS OFFER FOR A CONTRACT. THEY WON THE CASE. BUT THE WHOLE THING WAS JUST BECAUSE WHEN THEY WERE WRITING THE COMMERCIAL, THEY DIDN'T STOP AND THINK, HOW MUCH IS THE JET WORK. THEY JUST THOUGHT 7 MILLION THAT IS A BIG NUMBER. ONE OF THE THEMES IN THE BOOK IS HOW OUR BRAINS ARE NOT NATURALLY GOOD AT DOING MATH. PARTICULARLY BIG NUMBERS. SO WHEN IT COMES TO BIG NUMBERS, OUR BRAIN WILL SAY THAT IS A BIG NUMBER, AND IT'S NOTHING PERSONAL, WE ARE ALL BAD AT IT. WHEN THEY WERE WRITING THE AD, HERE'S A NICE EXAMPLE THEY WERE LIKE 7 MILLION, A MASSIVE NUMBER, AND THE COSTS OF THE JET AND EVEN BIGGER NUMBER. THEY TOOK IT TO COURT AND THEY WANTED THEY CHANGE THE COMMERCIAL. BUT I COULD NOT GET ANYTHING OFFICIAL OUT OF PEPSI. FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I WAS ONLY ABLE TO PUT IT INTO THE BOOK BECAUSE THE COURT, THE COURT RULING OF THE COURT CASE NOW IT IS LEGAL PRECEDENT, I WAS ABLE TO GO AND GET, I HAD TO DIG THROUGH AND FIND THE COURT CASE RESULTED GO THROUGH THEM. WHERE SOMETHING LIKE NASA, WHERE IT IS A GOVERNMENT THING, THERE IS A MUCH MORE OF AN OBLIGATION TO REVEAL WHAT WENT WRONG. SO, YOU ALMOST THINK THERE IS A BIAS THAT MORE THINGS GO WRONG IN THE MILITARY. ON GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS AND WITH EUROPE BUT IT IS SELECTION BIAS. WE HEAR ABOUT THOSE STORIES, BECAUSE THEY ARE OBLIGED TO DIVULGE THEM. I'M DIGGING THROUGH PAGES OF THESE OFFICIAL INQUIRIES AND INVESTIGATIONS, GOING BACK, I READ INQUIRIES FROM THE 1800S ON WHY BRIDGES COLLAPSED. IT WAS ALL MADE PUBLIC AND IT STAYS PUBLIC AND YOU CAN SEE IT. WHEREAS, WHAT YOU DON'T SEE ARE THE DARK STORIES, LIKE DARK MATTER. THERE WAS ONE STORY, I REALLY WANTED TO PUT INTO THE BOOK AND I KNEW ABOUT IT BECAUSE THE ENGINEER INVOLVED WITH A FRIEND OF MINE. WHEN I ASKED THEM CAN I PUT IN THE BOOK THEY SAID, THERE IS NO WAY. THEY WERE UNDER SO MANY NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENTS, AND THE COMPANY AND THE CONTRACTORS, AND THERE WAS A 0% CHANCE, FOR EVEN A TRIVIAL MATH MISTAKE THAT I COULD PUT INTO THE BOOK. SADLY, A LOT OF STUFF BY PRIVATE COMPANIES ARE NOT IN THERE BECAUSE WE EITHER DO NOT HEAR ABOUT IT OR IF WE DO IT IS SO OFF OF THE RECORD I COULD NOT PUT IT INTO THE BOOK. >>ROSWELL: WHAT WAS AGGRAVATING TO ME WHETHER IT WAS COMPANIES OR GOVERNMENTS, IF SOMEONE BRINGS UP A SIMPLE MATH MISTAKE THAT THEY DID OR SOMETHING MORE ELABORATE, THEY BECOME SO DEFENSIVE. I LIKE THAT YOU WROTE SOMETHING THAT SUMS EVERYTHING UP. MY MAIN POINT WAS THAT THERE IS A GENERAL FEELING AND SOCIETY THAT MAP IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT THAT IT IS OKAY NOT TO BE GOOD AT IT. BUT SO MUCH OF OUR ECONOMY AND TECHNOLOGY REQUIRES PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT MATH. I KNOW THIS STEMS FROM THE SOCCER BALL OR THE FOOTBALL, BUT I FEEL LIKE, PEOPLE ARE NOT, DESPITE IT IS A SERIOUS SUBJECT MATTER I FEEL LIKE MATH IS THE UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE, SOME PEOPLE JUST DO NOT TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY EVEN IF IT IS SOMETHING LIKE AN ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN. >>MATT: A LITTLE BIT OF ME WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, WAS ME HAVING FLASHBACKS TO WHEN I WAS A TEACHER. I TAUGHT TEENAGERS FOR SEVERAL YEARS. WHEN I WAS EIGHT HIGH SCHOOL TEENAGER AND EVEN DURING THE TRAINING, THE STUDENTS WERE ALWAYS, WHY DO WE HAVE TO LEARN THIS, THAT IS FAIR. PARENTS WOULD SAY THAT AS WELL. WHY DO MY KIDS HAVE TO LEARN THIS. I AM TERRIBLE AT MATH AND THEY ARE. I WOULD SAY DO NOT GIVE THEM PERMISSION TO BE BACK, TEENAGERS DO NOT NEED HELP COMING UP WITH EXCUSES. YOU SEE THIS FROM TEENAGERS, WHY DO I HAVE TO LEARN TO SPARE PART OF WHAT I WAS DOING WITH THE BOOK IS ANSWERING THAT QUESTION, ONCE AND FOR ALL. HOPEFULLY IT HAS BEEN A GOOD RESOURCE. TEACHERS CAN GO THROUGH AND FIND EXAMPLES BEFORE THEY TEACH, STATISTICS AND AVERAGES, BEFORE THEY TEACH TRIANGLES, BEFORE THEY TEACH NUMBERS AND THOSE THINGS. THEY CAN FIND EXAMPLES OF WHEN PEOPLE DID NOT BOTHER LEARNING THAT AND THINGS WENT WRONG. FOR ME IT WAS A BIG PART OF THE ANSWER OF WHY DO I NEED TO KNOW THIS. AS YOU SAY, JUST IN GENERAL I THINK IT IS DISAPPOINTING THAT MAP HAS ENABLED SOCIETY TO DO SUCH INCREDIBLE TECHNOLOGICAL BEINGS BUT IT IS STILL BEHIND THE SCENES, THAT PEOPLE DO NOT EVEN REALIZE THE EXTENT TO WHICH THEIR LIVES HAVE BEEN BETTER BECAUSE OF MATH AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE NEED MORE PEOPLE, WHO ARE MATHEMATICIANS OR MATHEMATICALLY COMPETENT TO GO INTO THESE CAREERS AND INVENT THESE THINGS AND KEEP THE WHOLE SYSTEM GOING. HOW IMPORTANT IT IS THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE GOING THROUGH THE MATH EDUCATION SYSTEM COMING OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE BECOMING PROGRAMMERS, ENGINEERS, ECONOMISTS, AND ALL WALKS OF LIFE. >>ROSWELL: THERE HAS BEEN SUCH A MAJOR PUSH FOR STEM IN SCHOOLS, ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE U.S. WHAT ADVICE DO YOU WANT TO GIVE PARENTS OF THEIR WHO HAVE KIDS AT HOME WHO HAVE, WHO DO NOT LOVE MATH OR ARE RELUCTANT TO LEARN OR DO NOT HAVE THE DRIVE TO LEARN. I SHOULD SAY, JUST READING THIS BOOK IT IS EXCITING AND LAYS OUT THE IMPORTANCE OF MAP, BUT HOW DO YOU SELL THAT TO A KID? >>MATT: IT IS A TOUGH SELL. I THINK THE BIGGEST THING IS, AS I MENTIONED IN PASSING, I DISTINCTIVELY REMEMBER BEING ON PARENT AND TEACHER NIGHT TALKING TO A PARENT WHO SAID PRETTY MUCH WORK FORWARD, I AM NOT GOOD AT MATH SO OF COURSE MY KID IS NOT GOOD AT MATH. FOR ME, THAT IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SHOULD DO. AT A MINIMUM, NOT ACTIVELY DISCOURAGING THE CHILD. IT CAN BE DELIBERATELY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY. THE THING IS COME UP MAP IS NOT AS HARD AS YOU REMEMBER IT BEING. IT IS THE WORST TIME OF YOUR LIFE TO BE FORCED TO SIT DOWN AND LEARN MATHEMATICS WHEN YOU'RE A TEENAGER. THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER PRIORITIES GOING ON. IF YOU REMEMBER IT AS BEING A DIFFICULT THING, IT IS NOT AS BAD AS YOU REMEMBER AND IF YOU CAN HAVE A POSITIVE ATTITUDE, AND YOU'RE RIGHT, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND BUT WE CAN LEARN IT TOGETHER. ONE OF THE BIG THINGS I GO ON ABOUT IS THAT EVERYONE FINDS MAP DIFFICULT. AND ACKNOWLEDGING THAT, ACCEPTING THAT, AND NOT SING IT AS AN EXCUSE TO NOT LEARNED. A LOT OF THINGS ARE IMPORTANT THAT ARE DIFFICULT. WITH MATHEMATICS, BECAUSE EVERYONE FINDS IT DIFFICULT THE PEOPLE BECOME MATHEMATICIANS, MAP ENTHUSIAST, US MAP WIZARDS, IT IS NOT BECAUSE WE FIND MAP EASY, IT IS BECAUSE WE ENJOYED THE FACT THAT IT IS DIFFICULT. THAT IS SOMETHING PEOPLE MISS. PEOPLE ARE GOOD AT MATH FIND IT EASY, NO, THEY JUST ENJOYED THE CHALLENGE AND LIKE ANY KIND OF LEARNING OF A SKILL OR EXERCISE THE BETTER YOU DO IT THE MORE YOU DO IT. ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND ONE BIT IT BECOMES EASIER WHERE AS YOU DON'T YOU FIND IT DIFFICULT IF NOT AS HARD AS YOU REMEMBER AND EMBRACE THE DIFFICULTY. >>ROSWELL: I DO SEE SOME QUESTIONS COMING IN I WANT TO ENCOURAGE THE AUDIENCE TO KEEP SENDING YOUR QUESTIONS. I DID MENTION, I SAID MATHEMATICS IS ONE OF OUR UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE IS UNDERSTOOD AROUND THE WORLD. THEN IT DAWNED ON ME, HERE IN THE U.S. WE STILL USE, ENGLISH WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD OR MOST OF THE WORLD USES THE METRIC SYSTEM. THERE IS ONE EXAMPLE IN YOUR BOOK IF YOU WANT TO SUMMARIZE HOW IT ALMOST BECAME DISASTROUS I SHOULD SAY BY THE WEIGHING OF POUNDS AND KILOS WHEN IT CAME TO A JET. >>MATT: UP UNTIL THEN I THOUGHT THIS COULD BE SEVERAL STORIES IN THE BOOK. BUT THERE WAS AN AIRCRAFT, IT WAS AIR CANADA 173I THINK, IT WAS IN THE 80s IN CANADA. AND CANADA HAD JUST SWITCHED FROM IMPERIAL ENGLISH LIKE TRADITIONAL UNITS TO THE METRICS SYSTEM. AND AIRCRAFT FUEL IS NOT MEASURED IN THE VOLUME, IT IS INJURED IN MASS AND THAT IS BECAUSE IF THE TEMPERATURE CHANGES THE VOLUME CHANGES SO YOU HAVE NOT GOT MORE OR LESS FUEL IT JUST TAKES LESS SPACE. THE MASK PHASE THE SAME. THIS FLIGHT, THEY CALCULATED THE MASS FUEL REQUIRED TO FLY FROM EDMONTON TO MONTRÉAL. A REASONABLE DISTANCE. HOWEVER, WHEN THEY WERE FUELING IT, INSTEAD OF FUELING IT IN KILOGRAMS THEY FUELED IT IN POUNDS. IT IS A CONVERSION OF TO POINT TO. THEY ACTIVELY PUT IN HALF AS MUCH FUEL AS THE FLIGHT WOULD REQUIRE, AND THE LONG VERSION OF THE STORY IS JUST INSANE. ALL OF THE THINGS, NUMBER ONE ALL OF THE THINGS THAT COULD GO WRONG THERE WERE MULTIPLE MATHEMATICS AND TECHNOLOGY MISTAKES TO HAVE THE PLANE TAKE OFF, AND EVERYTHING -- NO ONE DIED. TO RECAP, -- AND WHAT THEY DID TO SURVIVE, EVERYONE WAS FINE BUT IT WAS IN A GREAT STORY. SO WHEN STUDENTS SAY WHY DO WE HAVE TO WRITE UNITS WHY DO TEACHERS TALK ABOUT WHAT UNIT IT ISN'T, THIS IS WHY. YOU CERTAINLY WHEN THEY MAY HAVE -- YOU HAVE 818. IN THE FEEL. >>ROSWELL: YOU DID YOUR HOMEWORK WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH EACH CASE STUDY. HOW MUCH TIME DID THAT TAKE, AND HOW MUCH WORK DID YOU HAVE TO DIG THROUGH TO FIND THE REAL ANSWERS OF WHAT HAPPENED? >>MATT: I ALSO WORK DOING VIDEOS ON YOUTUBE, I DO SHOWS AND PERFORMANCES AND I DO WORK IN SCHOOLS WITH YOUNG PEOPLE. I WAS DIPPING IN-AND-OUT OF WRITING THIS BOOK OVER THE COURSE OF YEARS. GIVE OR TAKE. I RECKON, IT'S GOOD BECAUSE DOING THE RESEARCH JUST TAKES TIME. TO SOME OF IT I SAY I HAVE TO FIND THAT REPORT. THE REPORT IS ONLY IN CERTAIN LIBRARIES. IT HAS NOT BEEN DIGITIZED. I HAVE TO SCAN IT. A LOT OF IT IS I WILL GET THE BALL ROLLING EARLIER AND I CAN DIP IN-AND-OUT AND KEEP THE RESEARCH BEING BUMPED A LONG. DEFINITELY NOT FULL-TIME BUT THREE YEARS FROM BEGINNING THE RESEARCH AND PULLING THE THREADS TO SEE WHERE THEY LEAD TO THE FINISHED RESEARCH ON THE MANUSCRIPT. THEN HANDING IT OVER TO A VERY RELIEVED EDITOR. >>ROSWELL: I WAS IMPRESSED. MATT PARKER'S BOOK IS HUMBLE PI: WHEN MATH GOES WRONG IN THE REAL WORLD, FOR EVERYONE WATCHING WE WANT YOU TO KNOW THERE'S A GREAT RESOURCE FOR TEACHERS AND STUDENTS ON THE WEBSITE. THE LINK IS ON THE SCREEN. LET'S GET TO SOME QUESTIONS HERE. I THINK WE HAVE A QUESTION FROM NEIL NIELSEN. THAT IS A GREAT NAME. 'S QUESTION IS, SINCE WE ALL RELY ON CALCULATORS AND COMPUTERS TO DO THE MATH, HOW CAN WE LEARN TO DETECT WHEN THE ANSWER IS WRONG? >>MATT: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. NEIL SQUARED. IT'S TRUE, PEOPLE CAN GET TO RELIANT ON CALCULATORS AND THEY DO NOT DO A SENSE CHECK. THERE ARE DIFFERENT DEGREES OF SINCE CHECK. SOMEONE USING A CALCULATOR IS AN EXAMPLE IN THE BOOK MADE A SIMPLE ERROR. IT GAVE THE WRONG DOSE OF A MEDICATION TO A PATIENT. THERE WERE HUGE REPERCUSSIONS JUST BECAUSE THEY DID NOT STOP AND THINK DOES THIS ANSWER MAKES SENSE. TEACHERS GO ON ABOUT THIS. DO A SENSE CHECK. ONE THING YOU CAN DO, BUT TECHNICAL THINGS LIKE AND ORDER OF MAGNITUDE HOW BIG ARE THE NUMBERS ON MULTIPLYING AND DIVIDING AND HOW BIG SHOULD THE ANSWER BE. EVEN MADE TO MAKE YOU STOP AND THINK. TODAY HAD TO DO A CALCULATION WHERE IT WAS A RIDICULOUS CALCULATION. SOMEONE SENT IN A QUESTION ASKING, I DO A PODCAST WHERE I ANSWER QUESTIONS. SOMEONE SAID HOW LONG WOULD A ROLLUP TOILET PAPER BE IF IT WAS ONE MOLECULE. THIS IS NOT IMPORTANT WHATSOEVER. IF I GET THIS WRONG, I WOULD JUST BE EMBARRASSED IF SOMEONE POINTED OUT. I DIDN'T AND I WENT BACK AND SAID WHAT SHOULD IT BE, AND I THOUGHT ROUGHLY WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE, I DID AS SINCE CHECK JUST TO DOUBLE CHECK, THE EXTREME VERSION IS ENGINEERS WILL DO DIMENSIONAL ANALYSIS WHERE YOU REDO THE CALCULATION BUT A SET OF NUMBERS YOU PUT UNITS AND ALL OF THE EQUATIONS WORK JUST AS WELL WITH UNITS AS THEY DO WITH NUMBERS. IF YOU DO THIS AS A PARALLEL CALCULATION YOU MAKE SURE YOU GET THE RIGHT UNITS, IT IS ONE MORE WAY OF CHECKING THAT THE CALCULATOR WAS CORRECT. GOOD QUESTION. >>ROSWELL: WE HAVE A QUESTION HEAR FROM SARAH. SHE IS ASKING IF YOU COULD DISPEL ONE COMMONLY IS UNDERSTOOD THINK ABOUT MAP, -- MATHEMATICS, WHAT WOULD IT BE? >>MATT: I HAVE WENT ON ABOUT HOW WE ARE BAD AT MATH, IGNORE THAT AND MATHEMATICS IS JUST ABOUT NUMBERS AND PEOPLE EQUATE THAT WITH ARITHMETIC YES ARITHMETIC IS PART OF MATHEMATICS BUT IT IS SAYING ALL MUSIC IS PLAYING THE PIANO. THAT IS ONE PART OF IT BUT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER WAYS TO MAKE MUSIC THAN PLAYING THE PIANO. PLAYING THE PIANO WAS WONDERFUL BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS. THAT IS HOW I FEEL WHEN PEOPLE EQUATE MATHEMATICS TO NUMBERS. MATHEMATICS IS THE STUDY, IT IS DISCOVERING, ENJOYING AND EXPLOITING PATTERNS. THAT IS MATHEMATICS. I FEEL LIKE IT IS THE REAL SHAME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT MATHEMATICS IS THIS JUST ADDING TOGETHER BIG NUMBERS. >>ROSWELL: WE HAVE A QUESTION FROM BOB. HE IS ASKING, STRUCTURED PROGRAMMING HAS BEEN AROUND FOR 50 YEARS FOR DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, WHY HAVE MAJOR SOFTWARE PROJECTS BEEN SO FAULT DRIVEN? >>MATT: GREAT QUESTION, BOB. IT IS A GOOD POINT. IT IS BECAUSE SOFTWARE IS WRITTEN BY HUMANS. YOU ARE RIGHT, MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE, SOFTWARE, WHAT BOB IS SAYING, YOU HAVE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES YOU CAN WRITE COMMUNICABLE -- COMPUTER CODED JUST LIKE A NOVEL OR A POINT. THEY ALL HAVE THEIR PROS AND CONS. THE ONES HERE LIKE, THESE TWO ARE SOLID LIKE ROBUST, AND IN SOME LANGUAGE IT IS OBVIOUS THERE IS A MISTAKE OR SOMETHING IS WENT WRONG. I LIKE PYTHON. PYTHON IS SO MANY WAYS THINGS CAN GO WRONG BUT IT IS USER-FRIENDLY. THE TWO PRONGS TO WHY WE HAVE SO MANY PROBLEMS, SOFTWARE IS JUST INSANELY COMPLEX. SO, SECONDLY IT IS WRITTEN BY HUMANS AND CONSTANTLY ADAPTED. THE EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY THEY HAD AN AIRCRAFT, THERE WAS A MISTAKE IN THE COLD WHICH CAUSED THE LAUNCH TO VEER OFF. THERE WERE NO HUMANS, THERE WERE NO HUMANS ON BOARD. IT WAS ACTUALLY A BUNCH OF SPACECRAFT INCLUDING MY WIFE IS A SPACE SCIENTIST AND SOME OF HER COLLEAGUES HAD A SATELLITE ON THEIR. THEY SPENT DECADES WORKING ON THIS AND THEN IT WILL APPEAR THEY WERE SO SAD. IT WAS A FAILURE OF REUSING CODE WITHOUT TESTING IT PROPERLY. THAT WAS IT. IT WAS PARTLY HUMAN NATURE AND PARTLY VERY DIFFICULT TO TEST. SO THEY USE THE CODE FROM THE PREVIOUS ROCKET AND DID NOT CHECK THE SIZE AND VALUE GOING. SO IT EXPLODED AND THEY SENT BACK, THE CRUMPLED BITS OF METAL, SO IN THE COFFEE ROOM, AND THE SPACE SCIENCE LAB WHERE MY WIFE WORKS, THEY HAD THESE CHARRED BITS OF SPACECRAFT TO REMIND THEM ONE LINE OF CODE, IN ALL OF YOUR HARD WORK, CAN END UP ON FIRE IN A SWAMP. >>ROSWELL: WE ONLY HAVE A FEW MORE MINUTES SO I WILL COMBINE TWO QUESTIONS THAT ARE VERY SIMILAR. ONE IS FROM MARY SHE IS ASKING HOW CAN WE HELP MAKE MATHEMATICS MORE RELEVANT TO ORDINARY LIFE AND ROBERTS ASKING SOMETHING SIMILAR LIKE MANY LEARNERS AVOID MATHEMATICS BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT AND WRONG WITH NO ROOM FOR ERROR , WITH MUCH RED INK DISCOURAGEMENT. HOW DO WE INCREASE THE ENJOYMENT OF MATHEMATICS. HOW DO WE MAKE IT RELEVANT TO OUR DAILY LIVES AND ENJOY IT MORE? >>MATT: THE ANSWER TO BOTH IS TO NOT BE SCARED OF IT. I KNOW WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT A BUNCH OF TERRIFYING, IF MAP GOES WRONG EVERYONE DIES, THERE IS A DISTINCTION BETWEEN MATH WE ARE DOING SOMETHING IMPORTANT WHEN YOU ARE MESSING AROUND. IN TERMS OF EVERYDAY LIFE, PEOPLE HAVING, I HAVE CALLED IT MATHEMATICAL CONFIDENCE, IF YOU ARE HIRING A CAR AND THEY OFFER YOU INSURANCE AND YOU SAY DO I TAKE IT OR NOT, DON'T FREAK OUT BECAUSE ALL OF THESE NUMBERS ARE COMING AT YOU JUST HAVE THE CONFIDENCE TO SAY I CAN'T WORK THIS OUT JUST RELAX. I DO THAT. I GET MY PHONE OUT. WE HAVE CALCULATORS ON THEM. I GET UP INK PEN, AND I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS RIGHT AWAY, I CAN'T DO THE MATH IN HEAD BUT I DO THE MATH AND GIVE IT A GO. THERE ARE SO MANY FANTASTIC MATH PUZZLES AND INTERESTING INVESTIGATIONS AND THINGS YOU CAN DO. I WORK A LOT AS A RECREATIONAL MATHEMATICIAN AND THAT MEANS I'M DOING IT FOR THE SAKE OF IT I'M HAVING FUN. I ANTICIPATE MAKING A LOT OF MISTAKES. MATH IS MORE GETTING IT WRONG THAN RIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE LEARNING THINGS AND YOU ARE TRYING TO DISCOVER THINGS THAT ARE NEW TO YOU. >>ROSWELL: I THINK THE ANSWER IS, WHEN WE ASKED HOW DO WE MAKE OUR KIDS READ OR ANYTHING THE USUAL ANSWER IS MAKE IT FUN. DO IT WHEN YOU ARE ON A ROAD TRIP. TRIED TO MAKE IT MORE FUN AND LESS TEXTBOOK AND LESS INTIMIDATING. WE DO HAVE TIME FOR ONE MORE QUESTION, I FEEL LIKE THIS IS THE ONE QUESTION EVERYONE IS DYING TO ASK YOU. WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE SHAPE, AND WHEN WILL WE BE GETTING ANYMORE CODE VIDEOS AND WHAT IS UP WITH THE CHRISTMAS TREE BEHIND YOU? >>MATT: FAVORITE SHAPE IS THE RUBRIC. BEHIND ME THIS IS MIKE IS A. IN HINDSIGHT I SHOULD HAVE MOVED IT OUT OF THE BACKGROUND. I PROGRAMMED IT THIS LAST CHRISTMAS IT HAS 500 LIGHTS. I HAVE 3D EFFECTS GOING ACROSS IT. THE USER SUBMIT A COLD BECAUSE PEOPLE SENT IN CODE THAT I RAN ON MY CHRISTMAS TREE, I WANTED TO SEE HOW IT WORKS. PEOPLE SENT IN CODE. THIS IS WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THE INTERNET, I PUT A VIDEO OUT OF JUST MEET RUNNING OTHER USER SUBMITTED : MY TREE IT HAS HAD OR .9 MILLION VIEWS. I LOVE THE FACT THAT EVERYONE SAID THAT MATH AND PROGRAMMING AND TECHNOLOGY IS BORING AND A CHORE BUT WE DO STUFF FOR FUN. 5 MILLION PEOPLE LOVE THE FACT THAT, IF YOU TOLD PEOPLE BEFORE YOUTUBE, 5 MILLION PEOPLE WOULD WATCH ME DEBUG CODE ON MY MATHEMATICAL CHRISTMAS TREE, THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE YOU. BUT YET HERE WE ARE. >>ROSWELL: MATT PARKER THE AUTHOR OF HUMBLE PI: WHEN MATH GOES WRONG IN THE REAL WORLD, WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT. YOU REALLY DO MAKE MATH FUN. AS YOU MENTIONED 5 MILLION VIEWERS AND COUNTING AND YOU ARE DOING YOUR PART TO MAKE MATH FUN. WE WANT TO THANK EVERYONE FOR PARTICIPATING AND WATCHING ON THIS SUNDAY AFTERNOON. WE GREATLY APPRECIATE IT. THIS IS DAY THREE OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. IF YOU WANT TO CREATE YOUR OWN BOOK FESTIVAL EXPERIENCE JUST GO TO OUR WEBSITE, AND ENJOY THE VIDEOS. AGAIN THANK YOU MATT AND TAKE CARE EVERYONE. >>MATT: THANK YOU SO MUCH. [END OF SESSION] >>DAVID: HELLO I AM DAVID RUBENSTEIN AND I HAVE THE HONOR OF INTERVIEWING JOSEPH J. ELLIS ABOUT HIS LATEST BOOK THE COUSE: THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION AND ITS DISCONTENTS, 1773-1783 WELCOME TO OUR SHOW JOSEPH J. ELLIS. >>JOSEPH: IT IS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE. >>DAVID: FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW JOSEPH J. ELLIS HE IS ONE OF THE LEADING SCHOLARS IN THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR ERA. HAS WRITTEN 13 BOOKS ON THIS SUBJECT. HE IS A GRADUATE OF THE COLLEGE OF WILLIAM AND MARY GOT HIS PHD AT YALE HE IS A WINNER OF THE PULITZER PRIZE AND HIS LATEST BOOK IS AN EXPLANATION OF WHY WE WENT TO WAR WITH THE BRITISH AND WHITE THE BRITISH ULTIMATELY ENDED THE WAR FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW. I WOULD SAP READ ALL OF HIS BOOKS I HAVE ENJOYED THIS ONE THE MOST. I FOUND THAT I HAVE LEARNED MORE FROM THIS BOOK THAN ANY OF THE OTHERS. THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS BOOK. >>JOSEPH: I'M GLAD TO HEAR THAT. AS THE AUTHOR, THAT IS THE MOST MYOPIC PERSON IN TERMS OF HOW IT WILL BE RECEIVED. I AM HAPPY WITH IT AND I HOPE OTHERS WILL AGREE WITH YOU. IF YOU LIKE THE BOOK FOUNDING BROTHERS I THINK YOU WILL LIKE THIS ONE ABOUT THE 1770s. I DID NOT KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING 35 YEARS AGO WHEN I WROTE ABOUT THE LATE 18th CENTURY BUT IT TURNS OUT I WAS TRYING TO WRITE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN FOUNDING AND IT TURNS OUT I WAS DOING IT BACKWARDS. THIS BOOK SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRST BUT I DON'T THINK I COULD'VE WRITTEN IT 35 YEARS AGO I'VE LEARNED SOMETHING SINCE THEN. LIKE A NEW CHILD YOU HOPE IT WILL DO WELL YOU SEND IT OUT INTO THE WORLD. >>DAVID: WHAT ATTRACTED YOU AS A YOUNG MAN TO DEVOID YOUR -- DEVOTE YOUR CAREER TO THIS? >>JOSEPH: I DID NOT EVEN MAJOR IN HISTORY IN COLLEGE I MAJORED IN PHILOSOPHY. I NEVER WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL BECAUSE I COULD NOT AFFORD TO GO TO LAW SCHOOL. THEN I GOT A SCHOLARSHIP. NOBODY UNDERSTOOD HOW I GOT INTO YALE, AND THEN AT YALE CAME UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF EDWARD MORGAN AND HE WAS GOING TO SET ME ON MY COURSE. ANOTHER MIGHT MENTORS WOODWARD, I WORKED WITH HIM AND I ASKED HIM IF I COULD WRITE MY DISSERTATION ON THOMAS JEFFERSON AND HE SAID, NO, YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO WRITE A BIOGRAPHY, YOU HAVE TO LIVE LIFE A LITTLE MORE. SO I DIDN'T TRY TO DO THAT. THAT IS WHERE I CAUGHT IT AND I GUESS I MUST'VE HAD SOME SORT OF INFLUENCE MY GOT OUT. I'M STUCK WITH THE LATE 18th CENTURY. BECAUSE I HAVE WRITTEN BIOGRAPHIES I SOMETIMES GET IDENTIFIED AS A PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN. I DON'T THINK OF MYSELF LIKE THAT I AM A HISTORY OF OF THE 31st PRESIDENTS. AT ANY RATE, ED MORGAN LET ME WRITE THE WAY I WANTED TO AND I THINK TEACHING AT A LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGE ALLOWED ME TO WORK ON MY STUDY IN A WAY THAT AIMED AT A GENERAL AUDIENCE RATHER THAN THE OTHERS. THAT IS A LONG ANSWER. BUT THERE YOU GO. >>DAVID: LETS GO THROUGH SOME OF THE KEY POINTS. I WANT TO REMIND EVERYONE WHO'S ASKING QUESTIONS, THEN WE WILL HAVE 20 -- 10 MINUTES WHERE YOU CAN HAVE YOUR QUESTIONS SUBMITTED. SUBMIT YOUR QUESTIONS I WILL READ THEM WHEN WE GET TO THAT SECTION. WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE CAUSE, WHY DO YOU CALL YOUR BOOK THE CALLS, WHERE DID THAT PHRASE COME FROM? >>JOSEPH: A GOOD QUESTION. IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE WAR FOR AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE, NO ONE CALLED IT THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION. THE BRITISH CALLED IT THE AMERICAN REBELLION. THE COLONISTS STARTING IN 1774- 75 TALKED ABOUT THE COMMON CAUSE, WHICH AT THE TIME MEANT THE COLONIES RESPONSE TO THE BRITISH OCCUPATION OF MASSACHUSETTS AND ESPECIALLY BOSTON AND THE RATTLING OF THE COLONISTS TO SUPPORT THEM IN RESPONSE TO THE ACTS. AND COMMON CAUSE THEN WAS REDUCED TO THE CAUSE. IT BECAME A CONVENIENT LABEL A CONVENIENT CANOPY IN WHICH THE PEOPLE IN COLONIES WITH DIFFERENT POLITICAL AGENDAS COULD COME TOGETHER. THEY MIGHT NOT AGREE ON WHAT THEY WERE FOR BUT THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE AGAINST. THEY WERE AGAINST BRITISH POLICY AND THE ATTEMPT AS THEY PUT IT, SO THE CAUSE BECOMES A COVERALL TERM, IT STAYS IN PLACE UNTIL THE END OF THE WAR. IT IS A CONVENIENT WAY FOR PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT THEY ALL AGREE. >>DAVID: THE CONVENTIONAL VIEW THAT I'VE LEARNED IN SCHOOL WAS THE BRITISH WANTED TO PAY FOR THE EFFECTS OF HAVING SOLDIERS HERE FOLLOWING THE FRENCH AND INDIAN WAR, SO THEY IMPOSE A LOT OF TAXES AND THE TAXES WERE NOT POPULAR. BUT FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW WASN'T THE REVENUE SO MUCH THEY WANTED THEY WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR THEY WERE IN CONTROL OF THE COLONIES, IS THAT CORRECT? >>JOSEPH: THAT'S CORRECT. STARTING IN THE WAKE OF THE END OF THE TREATY OF PARIS IN 1763 GREAT BRITAIN GETS A THIRD OF BOOK AREA INCLUDING CANADA, AND THEY DECIDE THEY HAVE TO ACTUALLY GOVERN IT AND UP UNTIL NOW, THE PHRASE BENIGN NEGLECT, NOW THAT THEY HAVE REACHED THIS LEVEL OF WORLD POWER THEY HAVE TO ACT LIKE IT. SO THEY BEGAN TO IMPOSE TAXES, WHY I THINK IT WASN'T A MONEY ISSUE BUT A POWER ISSUE, THE ACTUAL COST OF ENFORCING THE LEGISLATION, PUTTING TROOPS THERE, HAVING PEOPLE COLLECT REVENUE, WAS GREATER THAN THE REVENUE RAISED BY THE TAXES. SO THE BRITAIN HAD 140,000 POUNDS DEBT AND THEY WANTED TO REDUCE IT BUT THEY WERE MOSTLY HOPING TO ASSUME CONTROL OVER THE COLONIES. THE COLONIES PERCEIVED THAT CONTROL AS THEY PUT IT, A BIT PARANOID AS THEY SAW IT AS AN ATTEMPT FOR A PLOT TO ENSLAVE THEM. THERE WAS SOME TRUTH TO THAT. NOT THAT THE BRITISH INTENDED TO ENSLAVE BUT ONCE YOU SURRENDERED CONTROL TO PARLIAMENT, YOU COULDN'T BE SURE HOW FAR THEY WOULD GO. EACH MOVE THE BRITISH MAKE SEEMS TO CONFIRM THE DIAGNOSIS THAT THERE IS A PLOT TO ENSLAVE THEM. BY THE TIME YOU GET TO 7075-76, THE AMERICANS BELIEVED 32,000 TROOPS TO INVADE THEM, GREAT BRITAIN IS TRYING TO ENSLAVE THEM. IN FACT WHAT THE BRITISH MINISTRY WITH SALE WE WANT TO DO IS MAKE YOU INTO COLONISTS. SECOND-CLASS BRITISH CITIZENS BUT NOT SLAVES. THAT MISUNDERSTANDING PERSISTS AND THE BRITISH DECISION TO MILITARIZE THIS CONFLICT IN 1774-5 MAY STAND AS THE GREATEST BLUNDER. IF YOU WANT, I THINK AMERICAN READERS MAY BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE BRITISH THINKING AND DILEMMA IN THE WAR, PERHAPS FOR THE FIRST TIME. PUT IT THIS WAY, NEWLY ARRIVED WORLD POWER WITH CONFIDENCE, CERTAIN OF ITS INVINCIBILITY ECONOMICALLY AND MILITARILY, STEPS INTO A QUAGMIRE AND UNNECESSARY WAR. THAT SOUNDS PRETTY FAMILIAR TO ME. >>DAVID: SOLD THE COLONIES FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW, THEY DID NOT WANT TO BE INDEPENDENT UP UNTIL THE ROMAN OF DECLARATION WHAT THEY WANTED WAS TO HAVE THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND BASICALLY EACH COLONY WOULD HAVE ITS OWN RELATIONSHIP. THEY WERE NOT DYING TO HAVE A UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, IS THAT CORRECT? >>JOSEPH: YOU ARE RIGHT. THE REASON I AM SAYING IT IS A BLUNDER IS, ONCE THE WAR STARTS GOING BADLY FOR THE BRITISH, THE BRIDGE SAKE OKAY, WE WILL GIVE YOU EVERYTHING YOU WANTED. WE WON'T TAX YOU. WE WILL EVEN LET YOU HAVE A CONFERENCE. IF THEY HAD SAID THAT IN 77 FOG WE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD A REVOLUTION BUT BY THEN IT IS TOO LATE. TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED. TOO MANY TOWNS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED. TOO MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN RAPED. THEY HAVE MISSED THE OPPORTUNITY. >>DAVID: YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR BOOK THAT TODAY AMERICANS PROBABLY THINK THE AMERICAN COLONIES WERE SO VALUABLE ECONOMICALLY, BUT IN THOSE DAYS IT WAS NOT THE AMERICAN DOMINANCE BUT THE BRITISH. IS THAT A FAIR UNDERSTANDING, THE BRITISH WERE MORE WORRIED ABOUT MONEY TO BE MADE FROM THEIR CARIBBEAN COLONIES THEN MONEY FROM THE AMERICAN COLONIES, IS THAT A FAIR DESCRIPTION? >>JOSEPH: THAT IS TRUE. ESPECIALLY JAMAICA. JAMAICA IS MORE POWERFUL THAN ALL OF THE COLONIES PUT TOGETHER. WHEN THE FRENCH CAME TO WIN THE WAR IN 1778, THE BRITISH THE BULK OF THEIR MILITARY AND RESOURCES TO PROTECTING THEIR HOLDING IN THE CARIBBEAN. THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE MOST AFRAID OF LOSING. AGAIN, ANOTHER CONTEMPORARY TERM, YOU EVER HEAR OF THE DOMINO EFFECT. THEY ARE AFRAID IF THEY LET THE AMERICANS GO THEN CANADA WILL GROWTH IN THE CARIBBEAN WILL GO. THEIR FIXATION ON SUPPRESSING THE AMERICAN REBELLION IS BASED ON THE BELIEF IF THEY HAD LET THAT HAPPEN, THEIR ENTIRE EMPIRE MAY COLLAPSE. >>DAVID: IN YOUR BOOK YOU POINT OUT, THE COLONIAL LEADERS ARE SENDING IN LEADERS THINKING IS SURELY A NICE PERSON, IF ONLY HE KNEW HOW BAD THE PARLIAMENT WAS, HE WOULD HANDLE THE PROBLEMS APPROPRIATELY. BUT HE POINTS OUT HE WAS WORSE THAN THE COLONIES, IS THAT RIGHT? >>DAVID: >>JOSEPH: THERE IS A CONSENSUS THAT IT IS A TYRANNICAL BODY IMPOSING THEIR WILL ON THEM. THEY DEVELOP THE ARGUMENT THAT GEORGE THE THIRD DOES NOT KNOW WHAT PARLIAMENT IS DOING. JOHN DICKINSON, ONE OF THE EARLY REVOLUTIONARIES DEVELOPED THIS ARGUMENT. THAT IF ONLY THEY KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON HE WOULD STOP IT ALL. OVER TIME, THEY COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT BANKING ON GEORGE THE THIRD IS A HOPELESS CAUSE BECAUSE NO ONE IS MORE COMMITTED TO IMPOSING POWER ON THE COLONIES THAT GEORGE THE THIRD PERIOD WHEN THE WARS OVER AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SCAPEGOATS, THE FIRST THINK YOU DO IS YOU LOOK FOR SCAPEGOATS. THEY SHOULD HAVE FASTENS ON GEORGE THE THIRD BUT THEY DID IT ON THE GENERALS, AND GEORGE THE EQUIVALENT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE. BECAUSE IF YOU FASTEN ON GEORGE THE THIRD YOU FASTEN ON THE WHOLE EMPIRE. AT ANY RATE, BEFORE HE BEGINS TO LOSE HIS MIND, BEFORE HE BECOMES MENTALLY DEPRAVED, GEORGE THE THIRD EXERCISE THE GREATEST IMPERIAL POWER OF ANY KING SINCE THE GLORIOUS REVOLUTION. HE IS THE REAL SCAPEGOAT. >>DAVID: WAS GEORGE WASHINGTON A MILITARY GENIUS TO WIN THE WAR WITH SO FEW TROOPS, AT THE TIME THEY WERE NOT -- THEY HAD FEW ARMOR OR HE JUST LUCKY THAT THE BRITISH BUBBLED THEIR EFFORTS TO WIN. WITH THE GENIUS OR DID THE BRITISH FUMBLE WAS IT A COMBINATION OF BOTH? >>JOSEPH: SOME WOULD SAY HE WOULD PARTLY LUCKILY -- SOME SAY HE WAS LUCKY. IT WAS A MIRACLE. GOD PROVIDENCE HE CALLED IT WAS ON HIS SIDE. THE WAY I PUT IT, AS A GENERAL, WASHINGTON WAS NOT THAT EFFECTIVE. HE LOST MORE BATTLES THAN HE WON. IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT COME UP MOST OF THE GREAT GENERALS IN WORLD HISTORY STARTING WITH HANNIBAL AND NAPOLEON AND ROBERT E. LEE, THEY END UP LOSERS. WASHINGTON WAS NOT A GREAT GENERAL BUT HE ENDED UP A WINNER AT SOME POINT HE UNDERSTOOD A STRATEGIC REALITY THAT BECAME CRUCIAL. HE DID NOT HAVE TO WIN THE WAR. THE BRITISH HAD TO WIN THE WAR. IT IS A BLOCK EASIER NOT TO LOSE. AS LONG AS HE KEPT THE CONTINENTAL ARMY INTACT, AND AS LONG AS THE COLONIES STAYED UNITED BEHIND HIM. THE BRITISH CAUSE, AND HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT THAT. BUT THERE IS A RESILIENCE TO THAT. AND TO THE ORDINARY TROOPS WHO ARE MY REAL HEROES. 10-15% WERE AFRICAN-AMERICANS. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO DESERVE THE REAL CREDIT. IT IS 87 AND A HALF YEAR LONG MARATHON, AND IT IS A WAR THAT IS MORE VICIOUS AND BARBARIC THAT WE IMAGINE. IF WE HAD MATTHEW BRADY PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE WAR AS WE DID OF THE CIVIL WAR WE WOULD THINK OF IT DIFFERENTLY. WE HAD WAYS OF THINKING OF IT DIFFERENTLY. MORE AMERICANS DIED IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION PER CAPITA THAN ANY WAR EXCEPT THE CIVIL WAR. IT'S REALLY BARBARIC. >>DAVID: THE FINAL BATTLE OF THE WAR, THE MOST IMPORTANT BATTLE AT THE END IS IN YORKTOWN WHERE GEORGE WASHINGTON IN EFFECT GETS WALLACE TO SURRENDER BUT THE FRENCH WERE INDISPENSABLE PROVIDING THAT MAY BE. WHY WERE THEY SO INTERESTED IN HELPING THE AMERICANS, DID THEY HAVE ULTERIOR MOTIVE OR DID THEY HATE THE BRITISH MORE THAN THEY LIKE BEST. >>JOSEPH: MOSTLY THE LATTER. IT WAS PAYBACK FOR HAVING LOST BOTH FRENCH AND INDIAN WAR. THE AMERICANS OPPOSING THE BRITISH, WERE OPPOSING AN ENEMY. IT TURNS OUT BY THE WAY, THE FRENCH SPENT SO MUCH MONEY HELPING US THAT THEY BEGAN TO GO BANKRUPT. IT IS FOR THAT REASON THEY HAD TO CALL THE STATES GENERAL AND THAT IS WHAT STARTED THE FRENCH REVOLUTION. BUT, WITHOUT THE FRENCH, BOTH IN THE WAR AND ESPECIALLY THE LAST BATTLE OF THE WAR IN YORKTOWN, WE COULD NOT HAVE WON THE WAR AT THAT MOMENT. I DON'T THINK WE WOULD HAVE LOST, BUT YORKTOWN IS MOSTLY A FRENCH OPERATION. THE FRENCH NAVY ARRIVES IN THE RIGHT TIME. THE FRENCH ARE MASTERS OF TRENCH WARFARE AND MOVING. THERE IS ONLY ONE AMERICAN MILITARY ACTIVITY DURING THAT BATTLE THAT IS AN ATTACK AND IT IS LED BY THE RHODE ISLAND REGIMEN WHICH IS ENTIRELY AFRICAN-AMERICAN SOLDIERS, 750. IT BECOMES THE LEADING COMBAT UNIT IN THE ARMY AND IT'S MOSTLY BLACK. THE REST IS FRENCH VICTORY IN OPERATION. WHEN THE AMERICAN FORCES ARRIVED IN FRANCE IN 1917 TO HELP THE FRENCH, ONE SAID, TELL LAFAYETTE WE HAVE ARRIVED HERE IT IS OUR TURN TO PAY YOU BACK. THE BATTLE OF YORKTOWN OCCURS IN 1781. CORNWALL IS TOO EMBARRASSED TO SHOW HIS FACE AT THE TIME OF THE SURRENDER SO HE DOES NOT DO THAT BUT THE BRITISH SURRENDER. WHY DID IT TAKE TWO YEARS TO NEGOTIATE THE TREATY OF PARIS AND WHAT WAS GOING ON? IT DOES TAKE 2-3 YEARS AND THERE ARE SCRIMMAGES THAT GO ON AND PEOPLE ARE CONTINUING TO DIE. INCLUDING ONE WHO BECAME A PROMINENT FIGURE. AND HE WAS RESPONSIBLE TO FOR THE EMANCIPATION OF BLACK SPIRIT THE AMERICANS HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER TO SIGN A SEPARATE TREATY WITH GREAT BRITAIN BECAUSE THE FRENCH ARE BEING DRAGGED OUT BY THEIR OBLIGATION TO SPAIN AND ET CETERA. BECAUSE IT IS DRAGGED OUT THE CONTINENTAL ARMY'S NORTH OF WEST POINT IN NEWBURGH, AS I THINK YOU KNOW FROM THE BOOK, THE NEWBURGH, WHAT DO THEY CALL IT, IT IS AN INSURRECTION BY THE ARMY ASKING WASHINGTON TO LEAD THEM BECAUSE THEY HAD NOT BEEN PAID FOR OVER A YEAR. THEY ARE STARVING. THEY THINK WHEN THE WAR ENDS, THEY WILL LOSE LEVERAGE TO GET THEIR PENSIONS AND THEY ARE PROBABLY RIGHT ABOUT THAT. THEREFORE THEY THREATEN TO EXERCISE A -- AND WASHINGTON GIVES AN IMPORTANT SPEECH TO THEM, EFFECTIVELY SAYING WE CANNOT REPEAT THE VALUES WE ARE FIGHTING FOR WOULD NOT LEAD YOU IN THIS AND I ASK YOU AND I TELL YOU, YOU MUST NOT DO THIS. THEY FOLLOW IT AT THAT MOMENT. IT IS ONE OF THE FIRST WASHINGTON -- MIKE WINDT LATER TOLD THAT GEORGE WATCHED HIM BEAT REFUSES TO BECOME A DICTATOR GEORGE THE THIRD SAID IF HE DOES THAT HE'LL BE THE GREATEST MAN IN THE WORLD, IN EFFECT HE WAS. THAT'S NOT WHAT CAESARS DID. THAT IS NOT WHAT NAPOLEON WILL DO. THAT IS NOT WHAT CASTRO WILL DO. DICTATORS TEND TO BELIEVE THEY ARE THE REVOLUTION AND HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME SEPARATING THEMSELVES FROM IT. >>DAVID: WE DO HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FROM THOSE REVIEWING THIS. HERE IS ONE FROM ANNA. WHAT SET YOU ON THE PATH TO BECOME A HISTORIAN? >>JOSEPH: I THINK READING BIOGRAPHY. I CAME TO HISTORY THROUGH BIOGRAPHY. I LOVE BIOGRAPHY BECAUSE THERE WAS ALWAYS A CENTER FOR THIS TOPIC. I SORT OF THOUGHT, WE ALL COME INTO THIS WORLD THE SAME WAY AND WE LEAVE THE SAME WAY. WHAT CAN WE LEARN BY LEARNING FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE HERE BEFORE US. SOME 1,000 YEARS. THAT IS PERHAPS AN ADOLESCENT WAY TO COME TO HISTORY BUT LIKE I SAID I DID NOT MAJOR IN HISTORY HAVE MAJORED IN PHILOSOPHY. I DECIDED TO GO FORWARD IN HISTORY BECAUSE OF THE MANY REASONS. I COULDN'T PAPER LOSS A LITTLE. -- LAW SCHOOL -- I COULD NOT PAY FOR LAW SCHOOL. I THOUGHT THAT, I WAS AN INTELLECTUAL HISTORIAN, WHATEVER THAT MEANT. IT IS A STRANGE PATH, BUT IT WORKED OUT FOR ME. >>DAVID: FROM MARK WE HAVE A QUESTION. WHAT ROLE DID FREE AFRICAN-AMERICANS PLAY IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION? FREE AFRICAN-AMERICANS. >>JOSEPH: WELL, THE FREEST, ESPECIALLY IN NEW ENGLAND WHICH HAD THE GREATEST NUMBER OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS THAT WERE FREE SERVED IN THE NEW ENGLAND MILITIA AND IN THE CONTINENTAL ARMY. ABOUT 10,000. ROUGHLY THE SAME NUMBER OF FREE BLACKS, WHO ESCAPED TO THE BRITISH ARMY, SERVED IN THE BRITISH ARMY. IN THE BRITISH ARMY THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SERVE IN COMBAT UNITS. THE AMERICAN ARMY THEY WERE. THE SERVICE OF AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THE CONTINENTAL ARMY WAS THE LAST TIME WE HAD A GENERALLY INTEGRATED MILITARY FORCE UNTIL THE KOREAN WAR. I FEATURED BILLY LEE IN THE BOOK AS A PROFILE. BILLY IS GEORGE WASHINGTON'S MANSERVANT AND WITH HIM THE WHOLE WAR. WASHINGTON FREES HIM IN HIS WILL. ON THE OTHER SIDE THERE IS A MAN NAMED HARRY WASHINGTON WHO ESCAPES FROM MOUNT VERNON AND SERVES WITH THE BRITISH AND ENDS UP BEING EVACUATED OUT OF NEW YORK AT THE END OF THE WAR GOING TO NOVA SCOTIA. ONE BLACK MAN, SERVES THE CAUSE WITH THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF AND THE OTHER, BOTH IN PURSUES HIS OWN FREEDOM WITH THE BRITISH AND EVENTUALLY ACHIEVES A. WHEN HE GETS THERE HE HELPS TO LEAD A MOVEMENT OR RESISTANCE TO BRITISH RULE CLAIMING THERE BEING TAX WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT. IT IS TWO DIFFERENT BLACK MEN, CHOOSING TWO DIFFERENT COURSES FOR THE SAME REASON, LIBERTY. >>DAVID: BY THE WAY, SUPPOSE WE HAD LOST THE WAR, THE AMERICANS LOST THE WAR, HOW WOULD BE -- HOW WOULD HISTORY BE DIFFERENT WHEN WE HAVE BECOME FREE OR IS IT TOO HARD TO PREDICT? >>JOSEPH: IT DEPENDS ON HOW WE LOST IT. IF WE LOST IT IN A REAL MILITARY WAY AND WE COULD HAVE LOST AT THE BATTLE OF NEW YORK AND LONG ISLAND. THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TAKEN ON THE AMERICAN LEADERS INCLUDING WASHINGTON, JEFFERSON AND CARRIED THEM OVER TO ENGLAND, GIVEN THEM A TRIAL, HUNG THEM AND PUT THEIR SEVERED HEADS ON SPIKES ON WESTMINSTER. IF THEY LOST THE WAR TOWARDS THE END AND THE AMERICAN ARMY DISINTEGRATED, AND YORKTOWN DID NOT HAPPEN, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MORE PEACEFUL NEGOTIATION, AND WE WOULD HAVE BEGUN TO SEE, 50 YEARS EARLIER THE BRITISH COMMONWEALTH. WE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO BE FOLLOWED BY KEVIN NEW ZEALAND TO REMAIN IN THE EMPIRE AND HAVE OUR OWN POLITICAL DEFENSE. >>DAVID: HERE IS A QUESTION. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE WORKING ON NOW AND WHAT ARE YOU CURRENTLY READING? >>JOSEPH: WHAT AM I WORKING ON NOW. WHEN YOU FINISH A BOOK, AND WHEN YOU ARE HAVE FINISHED THE PUBLISHER WANT YOU TO ADVERTISE. I AM WORKING AND THINKING ABOUT THE NEXT BOOK. I MENTIONED EARLIER NYQUIL SHARE WITH THE AUDIENCE, A BOOK THAT ASKED WHY THE FOUNDERS FAILED, THIS WAS A TRAGEDY THAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED DIFFERENTLY, WHILE I DO THINK THEY WERE THE GREATEST LEADERS IN AMERICAN HISTORY IN POLITICAL TERMS AND CREATIVE TERMS I THINK THEY FAILED THE IMPORTANT ISSUE AND I WANT TO KNOW WHY. THEIR REASONS, THAT I THINK WE HAVE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT BEFORE. WHAT AM I READING NOW, I'M READING A BOOK ABOUT THE RED SOX AND THE GLORY YEARS OF THEIR LAST WINNING SEASON OUT THEY DO THAT AGAIN THIS YEAR. >>DAVID: WHEN YOU THINK WAS JOHN ADAMS MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTION WHY WAS HE THE FIRST AMERICAN VICE PRESIDENT? >>JOSEPH: HIS MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTION WAS MADE EARLY IN THE GAME IN THE 1760s. YOU CAN SEE THIS IN THE FILM AND THE PLAY 70 SERVANTS -- 7076. HE RECOGNIZED THE AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE IS INEVITABLE. AMERICA AS HE PUT IT WAS LOOKING FOR A MESSIAH THAT WOULD NEVER COME. LATER ON, HE BECOMES VICE PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE GETS THE SECOND NUMBER OF VOTES UNDER WASHINGTON IN THE ELECTION 1789. HE HATES THE VICE PRESIDENCY BECAUSE HE THOUGHT IT WAS THE MOST RIDICULOUS IDEA. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT LISTENERS MAY BE SURPRISED BY, THE FIRST FOUR PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES, WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, AND MADISON, DID NOT REGARD THE PRESIDENCY AS THE CAPSTONE OF THEIR CAREERS. IT WAS AN EPILOGUE. ADAMS THOUGHT HIS GREATEST CONTRIBUTION CAME IN THE RUN-UP TO THE REVOLUTION. WASHINGTON THOUGHT HIS WAS MADE DURING THE WAR AND WINNING THE WAR. JEFFERSON BELIEVES IT WAS LITTLE RECOLLECTION OF THE DEPENDENCE. MEDICINE BELIEVES HIS CONTRIBUTION WAS LEADING UP TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION. WE OVERVALUE THE PRESIDENCY THEN. I ALSO MAKE THE CASE THAT NONE OF THE EARLY AMERICAN PRESIDENTS WHATEVER RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN THE POLITICAL CONDITIONS REQUIRED NOW. IT WAS AN ACT OF PROSTITUTION. >>DAVID: HERE'S ANOTHER QUESTION. HOW AWARE WAS THE AVERAGE OF AMERICAN ABOUT THE WAR AS IT WAS GIVEN THOUGHT AS THE BATTLES WERE SMALL AND IN THEIR GEOGRAPHY. >>JOSEPH: I WANT TO BE BRIEF BECAUSE OVERTIME IS TO PICK UP THE LOCAL LEVEL COMMITTEES OF SAFETY AND INSPECTION ARE CREATED THAT MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR SOMEONE LIVING ANYWHERE IN AMERICA KNOW MATTER HOW FAR AWAY, FROM REMAINING NEUTRAL DURING THE WAR. THAT PROBABLY WOULD BE THE BIGGEST GROUP, 40-50%. THEY JUST WANT TO GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES BUT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO MAKE A COMMITMENT AND IF YOU DO NOT MAKE A COMMITMENT TO THE CAUSE, YOUR NEIGHBORS WILL SHUN YOU, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY BE BANISHED. YOU WON'T BE KILLED, BUT YOU WILL BE FORCED TO FACE THE FACT THAT YOU WILL BE CAST OUT OF THE CONGREGATION. IT IS BECAUSE OF THAT THE BRITISH CAN NEVER WIN THE WAR. THEY CAN WIN EVERY BATTLE AND AS SOON AS THEY LEAVE, THE OTHER SIDE TAKES OVER. THEY WILL BE PUNISHED. SO IT IS THE WAR AT THE GROUND LEVEL ON THE COUNTRYSIDE THAT MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE BRITISH TO WIN THE WAR AND ORDINARY AMERICANS ARE FORCED TO TAKE TO TAKE A CLEAR POSITION IN A WAY MANY WOULD PREFER NOT TO. >>DAVID: WE HAVE 30 SECONDS. WHAT IS THE MAIN MESSAGE OF THIS BOOK THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TAKEN AWAY IN 30 SECONDS? >>JOSEPH: WE ARE FORTUNATE TO HAVE HAD A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE BEGINNING WHO REGARDED TWO PUBLIC INTERESTS RATHER THAN THE POPULAR INTEREST IN CHARGE. IS A REPUBLIC OUT OF DEMOCRACY. AND, HOW MUCH WE HOLD THE ORDINARY IN THE CONTINENTAL ARMY, OUR DISTRICT MEMORY SHOULD GO BACK TO THEM. CAPACITY FOR IRONY AND PARADOX, THIS IS WHAT THE SUBTITLE IS DISCONTENT SPIRIT WHEN WE END THE WAR, WE ARE ON CAPABLE OF DEALING WITH THE NATIVE AMERICAN ISSUE EFFECTIVELY AND THE SLAVERY ISSUE BECAUSE, THE GOVERNMENT IS THE CONFEDERATION OF SOVEREIGN STATES, UNITED STATES IS PLURAL NOT A SINGULAR NOUN AND THAT LEADS US TO TRAGEDY. >>DAVID: OKAY WE HAVE BEEN IN CONVERSATION WITH JOSEPH J. ELLIS ONE OF THE COUNTRIES LEADING HISTORIANS DURING THE COLONIAL PERIOD OF TIME ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK THE CAUSE: THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION AND ITS DISCONTENTS, 1773-1783. THANK YOU FOR THIS CONVERSATION. >>JOSEPH: THINK YOU DAVID. -- THANK YOU DAVID. [END OF SESSION] >>JOEL: WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL I AM JOEL ACHENBACH I AM A SCIENCE REPORTER WITH THE WASHINGTON POST WHO ARE THE SPONSORS OF THE FESTIVAL. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. WE WILL TALK ABOUT SOME AMAZING BOOKS ABOUT BIRDS. ONE IS ABOUT THE BIRD WAY, THE BIRD WAY: A NEW LOOK AT HOW BIRDS TALK, WORK, PLAY, PARENT AND THINK BY JENNIFER ACKERMAN. THE OTHER IS BY DAVID ALLEN SIBLEY, WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A BIRD FROM FLYING TO NESTING TO EATING TO SINGING, WHAT BIRDS ARE DOING AND WHY. WE WILL CHAT FOR A BIT WITH THE AUTHORS AND THE LAST 10 MINUTES, IT WILL BE VERY SHORT, ONLY 30 MINUTES, THE LAST 10 MINUTES WE WILL TAKE QUESTIONS. START PUTTING YOUR QUESTIONS IN THE QUEUE NOW. WHERE ARE THE AUTHORS. THEIR THEY ARE. HELLO JENNIFER, HELLO DAVID. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. SO, BIRDS ARE AMAZING. THESE ARE SCIENCE BOOKS ABOUT EVOLUTION OUT THE BIRDS INTERACT WITH THEIR ENVIRONMENT. AS I WAS READING I WAS THINKING, I CANNOT BELIEVE EVOLUTION DID THAT. I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS VERSE -- BIRD EXISTS AND FLIES AROUND. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE. HERE IS AN EASY QUESTION FOR YOU TO START WITH. WHAT IS THE MOST INCREDIBLE THING THAT YOU HAVE LEARNED ABOUT BIRDS OR THE THING THAT STRIKES YOU? WHAT IS THE CRAZIEST THING YOU HAVE DISCOVERED ABOUT BIRDS. LET'S START WITH JENNIFER. >>JENNIFER: I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR ME WAS THE LEVEL OF INTELLIGENCE IN BIRDS AND THE VARIETY OF INTELLIGENCE THAT THEY HAVE. SPATIAL INTELLIGENCE. TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE. THE ABILITY TO MAKE AND USE TOOLS, IT IS REALLY A REMARKABLE RANGE OF INTELLIGENCE. SOMETIMES WE OURSELVES DON'T POSSESS A. THEY HAVE A REMARKABLE SPATIAL MEMORY AND THE ABILITY TO NAVIGATE TO FIND THEIR WAY TO PLACES THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN BEFORE. I THINK IT IS A RANGE OF INTELLIGENCE AND THAT WAS THE MOST REMARKABLE THING FOR ME. I HAVE SOME CRAZY AND FUN BIRD STORIES THAT I WILL GET TO IN A MINUTE. >>JOEL: THE BIRD BRAIN, WE DON'T USE THAT TERM ANYMORE BECAUSE THEY ARE SO SMART. DAVID. >>DAVID: YES, THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS. I LEARNED AND WORKED ON THIS LATEST BOOK AND SO MANY THINGS THAT THE BIRDS DO, AND THE ADAPTATIONS THAT THEY HAVE EVOLVED ARE SO INCREDIBLE. I HAVE TO SAY ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE, IMPRESSIVE TO ME AMONGST THE WHOLE LIST IS, THEIR RESPIRATORY SYSTEM WHICH I HAVE ALREADY HEARD ABOUT BUT NEVER REALLY UNDERSTOOD UNTIL I HAD TO ILLUSTRATE AND DESCRIBE IT IN A SIMPLIFIED WAY FOR MY BOOK. THEIR RESPIRATORY SYSTEM IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM OUR SPIRITS THERE LONG STONE INFLATE OR DEFLATE THEY ARE FIX LIKE A CAR RADIATOR AND AIR FLOWS THROUGH IN ONE DIRECTION AT ALL TIMES. THEY HAVE A SYSTEM OF AIR SAXO THE AIR WILL INHALE AND EXHALE. FRESH AIR IS FLOWING THROUGH THE LUNGS SO THEY ARE CONSTANTLY GETTING A SUPPLY OF FRESH AIR FLOWING THROUGH THIS FIXED LONG, AND SINCE THE LONG IS NOT EXPANDING OR EXTRACTING, THE TRANSFER OF GASES EFFICIENT. YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN A BIRD OUT OF BREATH. THEY DO NOT GET OUT OF BREATH. >>JOEL: LET'S TALK ABOUT BIRD INTELLIGENCE. ONE THING YOU MENTIONED DAVID IN THE BEGINNING OF YOUR BOOK, YOU WERE SURPRISED AT HOW THOUGHTFUL AND IMPROVISATIONAL AND THE RICHNESS OF A BIRDS LIFE OR WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A BIRD. THEY ARE NOT JUST ZOMBIELIKE, FOLLOWING THEIR GENETIC CODE THEIR LIFE IS MORE COMPLICATED. JENNIFER, IN YOUR BOOK WHICH WAS RICH WITH EXAMPLES, THE IMPROVISATIONAL CREATIVE NATURE OF BIRDS, AS I WAS READING THIS I THOUGHT IF THEY GOT RID OF THE HUMAN BEINGS AND THE PRIMATES, THE BIRDS WOULD BUILD SPACESHIPS. BUT JENNIFER, WILL YOU TALK ABOUT THAT AND DAVID TALK ABOUT THE BIRD INTELLIGENCE. >>JENNIFER: THERE ARE SO MANY AS I MENTIONED. SO MANY KINDS OF INTELLIGENCE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT FLOORED ME IN RESEARCHING BOTH OF MY BOOKS THE GENIUS AND THE BIRD WEIGHED THE COURTSHIP DISPLAYS. THEY ARE UNBELIEVABLE. OUR HUMAN RITUALS ARE BOXES OF CHOCOLATES AND FLOWERS, THEY DO NOT HOLD A CANDLE TO THE WEIRD AND WONDERFUL AND INTELLIGENT COURTSHIP DISPLAYS THAT BIRDS HAVE. THE BIRDS OF PARADISE THEY DO THESE REALLY AMAZING DANCERS AND FURTHER DISPLAYS. THE TROPICAL MANIKINS PAID TO FUL - MANIKINS THEY BUILD THESE ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS CREATIONS MADE UP OF HUNDREDS OF STICKS. THEY COLLECT SHINY OBJECTS AND THEY LAID THEM OUT TO IMPRESS THE FEMALES. IT IS AN AND TO STIC ARTISTIC W. THE STRANGE COURTSHIP ON THE INTELLIGENCE THEY HAVE IS THE MALE COCKATOO, IT IS THIS BIG GRAY PARENT WITH A HUGE BILL AND IT LIVES IN THE RAIN FORESTS AND IT GETS EXCITED WHEN IT IS READY TO DRAW A MATE, IT RAISES A FLASHY HEADREST AND THEN HE MAKES A DRUMSTICK OF HIS OWN AND HE STARTS TO DRUM AGAINST A TREE TRUNK AND A SPECIAL RHYTHM THAT IS UNIQUELY HIS. MAKING A DRUMSTICK IN IT SO IS A WONDER BECAUSE TOOLMAKING OF ANY KIND IS RARE IN THE NATURAL WORLD. AND ALMOST ALWAYS OCCUR ONE WAY AND THE COCKATOO IS THE ONLY ONE TO MAKE A FOR MUSICAL PURPOSES. THEY ALL HAVE THEIR OWN SIGNATURE STYLE OF DRUMMING. THE BIRDS RIGHTFULLY KNOW THEY ARE THE RINGEL STAR OF THE BIRD WORLD. >>JOEL: DAVID DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE RICHNESS OF A BIRDS LIKE? >>DAVID: THE THING THAT STRUCK ME THROUGHOUT MY RESEARCH, AS I WORKED ON THIS BOOK WAS HOW MUCH WAS GOING ON IN A BIRDS LIFE. THERE'S EXAMPLES OF STUDIES AND YOU FIND THINGS LIKE, SPARROWS WHEN THEY KNOW THAT A HAWK IS AROUND OR THEY HAVE EVIDENCE THAT A HAWK MAY BE AROUND THE WILL STAY IN HIDING AND DELAY FEEDING UNTIL THE END OF THE DAY. THEY HAVE TO GAIN WEIGHT EACH DAY SURVIVE THROUGH THE NIGHT SO THEY WILL DELAY THEIR FEEDING, SO THEY ARE LIGHT AND AGILE AND QUICK TO AVOID A HAWK. AT THE LAST POSSIBLE MINUTE THEY WILL NEED. THERE ARE SO MANY DECISIONS THEY HAVE TO MAKE AN THERE IS EXAMPLES THAT THE BIRDS DO ALL OF THE TIME. IT MADE ME THINK, MY IMPRESSION, THE SIMPLISTIC IDEA OF INSTINCT, IS A GENETIC CODE, A COMPUTER CODE THAT DIRECTS THE BIRDS TO DO WHAT THEY DO AS ROBOTS, IS WRONG. THERE IS MUCH MORE SUBTLE DECISION-MAKING GOING ON AND INSTINCT MAY PROVIDE A GUIDANCE BUT, THE BIRDS MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT TO DO. AND THAT LED THINK OUR OWN FEELINGS, HOW DOES INSTINCT MOTIVATE THE BIRD TO DO WHAT IT NEEDS TO DO. FEELINGS WOULD BE AT GOOD WAY TO DO THAT. A FEELING OF SATISFACTION OR ANXIETY WOULD DIRECT THE BIRD OR US TO DO THINGS THAT OUR INSTINCTS ARE TELLING US TO DO. IT JUST MADE ME THINK MORE ABOUT WHAT INSTINCT REALLY IS AND HOW IT WORKS. MAY BE IN THAT WAY AND THE BIRDS ARE NOT THAT MUCH DIFFERENT, THE FEELING OF SATISFACTION WE GET FROM MOWING THE LAWN OR PAINTING A NEW ROOM, A FEELING OF SATISFACTION, TALK ABOUT IT AS NESTING, THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY AND, IT MAY BE SIMILAR TO WHAT BIRDS ARE DOING AND MOTIVATED THE SAME WAY. >>JOEL: A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT IS REMARKABLE BOTH OF YOUR BOOKS CAME OUT RIGHT WHEN THE PANDEMIC WAS HITTING. THEY WERE BOOKS THAT PEOPLE GRAVITATED TOWARDS. THE TRAFFIC STOPPED, AND PEOPLE WERE LIKE WHAT IS UP WITH ALL OF THE BIRDS. PEOPLE DISCOVERED BIRDS. IT MAKES ME WONDER IF, A VAGUE QUESTION BUT, HOW ARE BIRDS DOING. WE HAVE A PLANET IMPACTED BY HUMAN BEINGS AS FAR AS HABITAT DESTRUCTION, CLIMATE CHANGE, AND SO ON, MAYBE YOU BOTH CAN'T ADDRESS THE QUESTION OF, WHICH BIRDS ARE MOST THREATENED NOW AND WHICH ONES WILL BE FINE WITH CLIMATE CHANGE BECAUSE THEY WILL FIGURE OUT A WAY TO ADAPT AND WHAT SHOULD WE COLLECTIVELY BE AWARE OF IN TERMS OF HOW WE CAN HELP THE BIRDS WHO ARE MOST VULNERABLE TO HUMAN IMPACTS. >>JENNIFER: HUMAN ACTIVITY HAS CAUSED THE EXTINCTION OF 1,000 BIRD SPECIES WITHIN THE LAST FIVE DECADES IN NORTH AMERICA ALONE WE HAVE LOST 3 BILLION BIRDS. 30% OF THE BIRD POPULATION. SO MANY SPECIES ARE AT RISK BECAUSE THEY CANNOT ADAPT TO THE RAPID PACE OF HUMAN -INDUCED CHANGE IN THE PLANET. I THINK ALL BIRDS ARE PROBABLY AFFECTED BY CLIMATE CHANGE AND HABITAT LOSS BUT I THINK POSSIBLY THE HARDEST HIT WILL BE THE BIRDS THAT ARE SPECIAL, THAT NEED A PARTICULAR NICHE TO SURVIVE. TROPICAL SPECIES ARE AT RISK BECAUSE THEIR RANGES ARE OFTEN SMALL AND SPECIALIZED IN A SPECIAL ZONE ON THE MOUNTAIN OR A PARTICULAR RAIN FOREST. THOSE HABITATS ARE CHANGING. SOMETIMES THEY ARE BEING DEGRADED. ALSO I THINK MIGRATORY SPECIES ARE REALLY THREATENED BY CLIMATE CHANGE. THOSE MIGRATORY BIRDS THAT TRAVEL FOR VERY LONG DISTANCES. THOSE LONG DISTANCE JOURNEYS ARE DELICATELY TIME FOR FOOD BUILDING THAT OCCURS ALONG THE WAY, TO THE BREEDING GROUNDS. AS THE EARTH WARMS, THE TWO CRITICAL TIMING SIGNALS FOR THE BIRDS AND THEIR PREY, THAT IS THE LENGTH OF DAY AND TEMPERATURES, THOSE UNCOUPLED. WHAT HAPPENS IS THE MIGRATING BIRDS MAY ARRIVE AT THEIR FEEDING GROUNDS AND THEY ARE EITHER TOO EARLY OR TOO LATE, OR TOO LATE FOR THE BLOOM OF THEIR PREY. THAT IS A BIGGER THREAT. YOU KNOW, I DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE DO, -- I THINK WE ARE ALL FEELING OVERWHELMED BY THIS. I READ A TERRIFIC OPINION PIECE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES CALLED THE DISASTER WE MUST THINK ABOUT EVERY DAY. IN IT SHE SAYS, PICK A THING, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THE THING THAT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING BUT PICK A THING. THAT WAS HELPFUL TO ME. MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD FOR BIRDS IN SOME WAY. VOTE FOR ENVIRONMENTALLY MINDED CANDIDATES. SUPPORT ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS LIKE ENDANGERED SPECIES AND THE BIRD ACT. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO CULTIVATE A HEALTHY ENVIRONMENT WHEREVER YOU LIVE. I WOULD SAY DITCH YOUR LAWN AND INSTEAD PLANT NATIVE SPECIES THAT WILL ATTACK AND SUPPORT -- ATTRACT AND SUPPORT SPECIES. IF YOU HAVE CATS, KEEP THEM INDOORS BECAUSE PREDATION BY DOMESTIC CATS IS THE NUMBER ONE HUMAN CAUSED THREAT TO BIRDS IN NORTH AMERICA. IN THE U.S. ALONE AFTER LOOKING THE CATSKILL MILLIONS OF BIRDS EVERY YEAR. THAT SOMETHING GOOD YOU CAN DO. >>JOEL: DAVID YOU WANT TO ADDRESS THAT? WHAT CAN WE DO FOR BIRDS? >>DAVID: JENNIFER DID A GREAT JOB EXPLAINING THE WHOLE THING. WITH SOME EXAMPLES OF THINGS TO DO, I AGREE WITH ALL OF IT. I THINK, FOR MY WHOLE LIFE, WE HAVE BEEN REALLY FOCUSING ON HABITAT, PESTICIDES, THOSE ARE THE BIG RISK TO BIRDS. BUT NOW CLIMATE CHANGE, I THINK IS THE BIGGEST, MOST OVERWHELMING THREAT TO BIRDS. AS JENNIFER SAID, THE MOST AT RISK SPECIES FOR THAT IS THE SPECIALIST. ESPECIALLY SPECIES IN LIMITED CLIMATE ZONES LIKE MOUNTAINTOPS OR A CERTAIN ELEVATION RANGE IN THE MOUNTAINS. ALSO THE COASTAL SPECIES. THEY ARE LIVING WITHIN A FEW INCHES OF HORIZONTAL SPACE, JUST ABOVE THE HIGH TIDE LINE. IT IS ALREADY CHANGING. AS THE SEA LEVEL RISES MORE RAPIDLY, THEY WILL HAVE A HARD TIME FINDING ANYPLACE TO EXIST. THE SPECIES THAT NEST ON BEACHES AND SANDBARS, SIMILARLY THOSE PLACES, THEY ARE MORE LIKELY, A HIGH TIDE IN JUNE WILL FLOOD THE NEST. THAT IS IT FOR THE BIRDS THAT YEAR. IT DOES NOT HAVE TO DISAPPEAR UNDER THE WATER COMPLETELY, JUST FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS FOR ONE HIGH TIDE, AND THAT HAPPENS MORE OFTEN. CLIMATE CHANGE I THINK IS THE BIGGEST SINGLE THING TO ADDRESS, AND THAT HAS TO BE A BIG POLITICAL SOLUTION. THERE ARE LOT -- A LOT OF THINGS INDIVIDUALS CAN DO. TO FOCUS ON SOMETHING MORE CONCRETE, MAKING YOUR OWN YARD AND NEIGHBORHOOD MORE HOSPITABLE FOR BIRDS, IS A GREAT THING. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THINGS OUT THERE ABOUT NATIVE PLANTINGS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF NATIVE PLANTS FOR BIRDS. THE NATIVE PLANTS HAVE EVOLVED WITH THE NATIVE INSECTS AND OTHER INVERTEBRATES SO THERE IS A HUGE COMMUNITY OF BIRD FOOD THAT LIVES ON NATIVE PLANTS. SPECIES GROW REALLY WELL BECAUSE THERE ARE ANY INSECTS THAT ATTACK THEM. PLANNING OAKS, NATIVE MAPLES SHRUBS LIKE SERVICE BARRY, LOTS AND OF THE FAST-TRACK LOTS OF INFORMATION OUT THERE ABOUT WHAT TO GROW WHERE YOU LIVE IN THAT WILL PROVIDE FOOD FOR THE BIRDS. AS FOR THE BIRDS RIGHT NOW THEY ARE MAKING THESE MIGRATIONS. THEY ARE HEADING SOUTH FROM CANADA TO THE NORTHERN U.S., CENTRAL U.S., GOING SOUTH TO THE CARIBBEAN, SOUTH AMERICA, AND THEY NEED FOOD ALONG THE WAY. THEY ARE FLYING ALL NIGHT AND SPENDING A FEW DAYS ON THE GROUND. THEY ACTED UP TO MAKE ANOTHERFAE ENERGY TO FLY ALL NIGHT. >>JOEL: AUDIENCE YOU CAN PUT QUESTIONS IN THE QUEUE. I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH, WE WERE CHATTING IN THE GREEN ROOM, YOU BOTH HAVE REMARKABLE LIVES YOU CAN TAKE SOMETHING AS A PASSION, WHICH IS BIRDING AND TURN IT INTO IMPORTANT BEAUTIFUL WORK. REALLY QUICKLY, JENNIFER, HOW DID YOU PICK THE BIRD WAY A YOUS YOUR NEXT TOPIC. MAYBE YOU CAN SURMISE, YOU WANTED TO DO A BOOK FOR KIDS, AND THIS NEW BOOK EVOLVED FROM THAT. >>JENNIFER: AFTER I FINISHED THE GENIUS OF BIRDS, WHICH WAS ABOUT BIRD INTELLIGENCE AND WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED ABOUT THE BIRDBRAIN, A REAL MIRACLE, IT IS SUPER EFFICIENT, IT HAS THESE CAPABILITIES WE NEVER DREAMED OF. I GOT INTERESTED IN THE IDEA, HOW ARE BIRDS USING THEIR INTELLIGENCE IN THEIR DAILY LIVES. HOW DID THEY DO IT AS THEY GO ABOUT THEIR COMMUNICATION, RAISING OF THEIR YOUNG. IT REALLY GREW OUT OF THAT IDEA. LOOKING AT THE EXTRAORDINARY BEHAVIOR OF BIRDS AND HOW THEY REVEAL INTELLIGENCE. ONE OF THE EXAMPLES THAT REALLY STAND OUT FOR ME, IT IS THE KINDS OF COMMUNICATION THAT BIRDS ARE CAPABLE OF. THE SOPHISTICATED COMMUNICATION THAT SOME OF THEIR ALARM CALLS ARE PACKED WITH INFORMATION. THE BIRD WAY: A NEW LOOK AT HOW BIRDS TALK, WORK, PLAY, PARENT AND THINK LOOKS AT WHAT ARE BIRDS ACTUALLY COMMUNICATING, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SUBTLETIES OF THEIR MESSAGE. ARE OTHER SPECIES OF BIRDS UNDERSTANDING WHAT THEY SAY. AND IT TURNS OUT, YES, YES THEY DO. IN A WAY BIRDS CAN UNDERSTAND FOREIGN LANGUAGES. THAT FOR ME, WAS REALLY EXCITING TO JUST EXPLORE HOW BIRDS APPLY THEIR SOPHISTICATED INTELLIGENCE IN THEIR DAILY LIVES. >>JOEL: BECAUSE WE ARE RUNNING SHORT ON TIME I WANT TO GO TO QUESTIONS FROM THE QUEUE RIGHT HERE. THERE'S A A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ASKING ABOUT EMOTIONS. DO YOU BELIEVE ALL BIRDS HAVE THE CAPACITY TO EMOTIONALLY RELATE OR LOVE A MATE, THAT IS FROM ONE PERSON IN THE AUDIENCE. THERE IS A SIMILAR ONE, ARE BIRDS AWARE OF EACH OTHER'S EMOTIONS. WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE A BIRD EMOTIONALLY, DAVID? >>DAVID: THAT IS A TRICKY QUESTION AND ONE THAT I DIDN'T ADDRESS AND I DON'T KNOW OF ANY RESEARCH THAT ADDRESSES THAT. IT HAS BEEN A SUBJECT THAT HAS BEEN TABOO IN SCIENCE FOR DECADES. WHEN I SAY, THAT I THINK THE FEELINGS THAT WE HAVE COULD BE THE STIRRINGS OF INSTINCT AND SIMILAR TO THE WAY INSTINCT WORKS IN BIRDS, I'M NOT DIRECTLY TRYING TO SAY THAT BIRDS FEEL SATISFACTION OR ANXIETY OR LOVE, OR OTHER FEELINGS LIKE THAT, ONLY THAT INSTINCT IS MOTIVATING THEM IN SOME WAY WITH SOME SENSATION LIKE THAT. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT BIRDS FEEL OR WHAT THEIR EXPERIENCE IS IN THAT WAY, I DON'T THINK ANYONE CAN. ONE OF THE THINGS I COULD TALK ABOUT IS THEIR EXPERIENCE AND JENNIFER MENTIONED IT, WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A BIRD IS DIFFERENT FROM BEING A HUMAN. THEIR SENSES AND BRAINS ARE DIFFERENT. IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE. I HAVE A SENSE THAT THEY HAVE SOME FEELINGS, AND THAT IS HOW INSTINCT MOTIVATES THEM, BUT I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE FEELINGS WOULD BE AND IF WE WOULD CALL THEM EMOTIONS. >>JOEL: JENNIFER, DO YOU WANT TO TAKE A SHOT AT THAT QUESTION, AND THERE IS A'S QUESTION SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU AFTER THAT. WE ONLY HAVE A LITTLE TIME LEFT BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT BIRDS AND THEIR FEELINGS? >>JENNIFER: I WILL TRY TO BE QUICK. THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE THAT BIRDS HAVE THE FOUNDATIONS OF EMPATHY. THERE IS A RESEARCHER WHO WORKS WITH THE RAVENS AND HE HAS DETERMINED THAT RAVENS ARE VERY SOCIAL BIRDS, AND THEY HAVE VERY CLOSE ALLIES, AND MATES. IF A MATE OR AN ALLY IS INJURED OR IN SOME WAY IN A FIGHT, THE BIRD THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT MATE OR ALLY, WILL ACTUALLY COME OVER TO THE BIRD, PREEN IT, BUILD WITH IT, THE BIRD EQUIVALENT OF KISSING, CLEARLY THERE IS SOME EFFORT TO CONSOLE AND SOME UNDERSTANDING THERE HAS BEEN INJURY OR HARM. WHETHER WE CALL THAT EMPATHY OR NOT IS A QUESTION BUT, IT LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING SIMILAR TO THAT. I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT THE BIRDS FORM ATTACHMENTS TO THEIR MATE. AND SOME OF THEM VERY DEEP ATTACHMENTS. THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THE BIRDS CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON IN ANOTHER BIRDS MIND. SOME OF THE MADE TO MATE FEEDING RITUALS IMPLIED THAT. I THINK WE ARE AT THE CUSP OF FIGURING OUT HOW TO STUDY THE QUESTIONS AND THEY ARE FASCINATING. >>JOEL: JENNIFER THERE IS A QUESTION THAT SOMEONE ASKED YOU TO ANSWER. CAN YOU COMMENT ON THIS YEAR'S MYSTERIOUS BIRD PLAGUE IN THE MID ATLANTIC LENT -- THAT IS LINKED TO BIRDFEEDERS. >>JENNIFER: I THINK THERE IS CONTROVERSY TO THAT AND DAVID MAY BE ABLE TO JUMP IN HERE TOO. WE HAD TO TAKE OUR OWN FEEDERS DOWN HERE IN CENTRAL VIRGINIA BECAUSE OF THIS VERY STRANGE DISEASE AFFECTING BIRDS EYES AND THEIR BEHAVIOR AND IT WAS LETHAL. THERE WAS SOME THOUGHT IT MAY BE TIED TO THE CICADAS. I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHETHER THEY SETTLE THE MYSTERY, DAVID DO YOU KNOW? >>DAVID: I KNOW WHAT I HAVE READ AND PRESS RELEASES AND WRITE UPS. IT IS STILL A MYSTERY. IT WAS NEVER LINKED TO BIRDFEEDERS AS FAR AS I KNOW. THERE WAS THE SUGGESTION TO TAKE OUT BIRDFEEDERS AS A PRECAUTION TO HELP THE BIRDS SOCIALLY DISTANCE SO THEY WOULD NOT GATHER IN ONE PLACE. IT WAS NOT LINKED TO BIRDFEEDERS, TAKING THEM BIRDFEEDERS WAS JUST THE PRECAUTION TO SLOW THE SPREAD. AS FAR AS I KNOW THERE IS NO EXPLANATION FOR IT. NO DIAGNOSES. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT WAS A DISEASE. IT COULD HAVE BEEN 2-3 DIFFERENT THINGS COINCIDENTALLY HAPPENING AROUND THE SAME TIME. IT IS STILL A MYSTERY. THANKFULLY, IT IS FADING A WAY. PEOPLE ARE STILL WORKING ON IT. THERE MAY BE SOME ANSWERS SOMEDAY. BUT IT IS STILL MYSTERIOUS. >>JOEL: WE ARE RUNNING SHORT ON TIME. HERE'S A QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED, WHY ARE PIGEONS SO WIDELY MISUNDERSTOOD AND HATED, I WILL SAY I DON'T HATE PIGEONS. I DON'T HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING OF THEM AT ALL. IT MAKES ME THINK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE, IS IT VULTURES WHO ARE WIDELY REGARDED AS BIRDS BUT THEY ARE GOOD BUT IF YOU GET RID OF THE VULTURES, COMPLICATIONS WILL ENSUE THAT ARE NOT FAVORABLE. DO YOU WANT TO COMMENT ON PIGEONS OR MY QUESTION, VULTURES? >>JENNIFER: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT PIGEONS BECAUSE THEY ARE MALIGN. THEY ARE FANTASTIC NAVIGATORS. THERE IS A REASON WE HAVE HOMING PIGEONS. THEY HAVE VERY SOPHISTICATED WAYS. THEY HAVE A MENTAL TOOLKIT THAT IS THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR GPS OR OUR COMPASSES OR SATELLITES. THEY HAVE THIS IN THEIR HEADS. ALSO, PIGEONS ARE REALLY GIFTED AT MAKING VISUAL DISTINCTIONS. THEY CAN TELL THE DIFFERENT LETTERS OF THE ALPHABET AND HUMAN FACES. THEY HAVE EVEN BEEN TRAINED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN DIFFERENT KINDS OF TISSUE IN MAMMOGRAMS. HEALTHY TISSUE VERSUS CANCEROUS TISSUE. THEY CAN DO IT BETTER THAN A TECHNICIAN. PIGEONS HAVE A LOT OF TRICKS UP THEIR SLEEVES. I THINK PEOPLE JUST DO NOT LIKE THEM BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF THEM, AND THEY TEND TO BE IN THE CITY ENVIRONMENT BUT I THINK THEY ARE VASTLY UNDERESTIMATED. >>DAVID: I WILL JUMP IN ON PIGEONS AS WELL. I THINK IT IS THE CLASSIC FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT. PIGEONS, THERE IS A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD WHO LOVE PIGEONS. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF DIFFERENT BREEDS OF PIGEONS THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED BY THE BREEDERS, AND PIGEON RACING IS STILL POPULAR. THERE IS A PRETTY BIG NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY LOVE PIGEONS. >>JOEL: OKAY, I WORK TIME IS UP. I WANT TO SAY TO THE PEOPLE THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. WATCHING. JENNIFER AND DAVID THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT YOUR BOOKS. CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOKS, THEY ARE WONDERFUL. THEY ARE FULL OF MARBLES OF NATURE. THAT WILL WRAP IT UP FOR US. THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. >>JENNIFER: THANK YOU. PRETEND THANK >>DAVID: THANK YOU. [END OF SESSION] >> SPONSORED BY THE JAMES MADISON CONSTITUTE. AND THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT OF THE HUMANITIES. >>MARIA S.: HELLO EVERYONE WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS BOOK FESTIVAL MY NAME IS MARIA SALINAS. I AM YOUR MODERATOR. I AM EXCITED TO BE HERE AND LOOKING FORWARD TO AN AMAZING CONVERSATION WITH TWO VERY PROMINENT LATINO AUTHORS. I WILL REMIND YOU YOU WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO ASK QUESTIONS AT THE END OF THE CONVERSATION. LET ME INTRODUCE THEM, NOE ALVAREZ ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT JOURNALISTS IN THE COUNTRY HOST AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF AWARD-WINNING LATINO USA, CALLS OF THE PODCASTS IN THE THICK FOUNDER AND CEO OF MORE. AND AUTHOR OF LOVE AND HATE. NOE ALVAREZ HAILS FROM A CLASS OF WORKING-CLASS IMMIGRANTS AND A MEMOIR SPIRIT RUN: A6000 MILE MARATHON THROUGH NORTH AMERICA'S STOLEN LAND CHRONICLES HIS UPBRINGING AND HIS EXPERIENCE OF THE PEACE AND DIGNITY OF THE JOURNEY THAT UNITES INDIGENOUS RUNNERS. WELCOME NOE ALVAREZ. >>NOE: IT IS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE. >>MARIA S.: WELCOME EVERYONE. MARIA YOU WERE BORN IN MEXICO, NOE YOU WERE BORN IN AMERICA. GIVEN THAT THIS BOOK COINCIDES WITH HISTORIC HERITAGE MONTH WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? DO YOU WANT TO START? >>MARIA H.: IT IS SO GREAT TO BE HERE WITH YOU AND TO BE WITH NOE. I NEED TO GET BACK TO RUNNING. I THINK FOR ME, THIS BOOK IS ME COMING TO TERMS WITH THIS COUNTRY, MY ADOPTED COUNTRY BECAUSE I WAS BORN IN MEXICO. FOR MY IDENTITY, IT IS OWNING MY FULL SELF AND THAT, AS A MEXICAN WOMAN WHO IDENTIFIES ALSO AS NORTH AMERICAN AS PART OF THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE I AM AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, THIS BOOK IS MY OPPORTUNITY TO HOLD THIS COUNTRY ACCOUNTABLE WHILE ALSO, ON THE OTHER SIDE, THERE IS THE INSTRUMENT OF BEING A LATINO AND BEING THE 1st AND ALL OF THE NEWSROOMS WHERE I WORK, AND IN THAT SENSE IT IS ABOUT CREATING A COMMUNITY SO OTHER YOUNG WOMEN AND MEN WHO WANT TO BE JOURNALISTS OR IMMIGRANTS LIKE ME, THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THEMSELVES IN THIS BOOK. >>MARIA S.: NOE, WHAT DOES THIS BOOK MEAN FOR YOUR CULTURAL IDENTITY? >>NOE: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION IT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS. IT IS ONGOING BATTLE. WE LIVE IN THIS MIDDLE SPACE OF, YOUR PARENTS REALITY TRYING TO ESTABLISH HERSELF. I THINK FOR ME IT IS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF BEING LEFT OUT AND TRYING TO FIND A PLACE, ON A LAMP THAT DID NOT ALWAYS WANT YOU THERE. THAT DID NOT TELL YOU YOU, BELONG THERE. FOR ME IT IS FINDING YOUR SPACE AND FINDING HEALING AND THE STORIES THAT YOUR PEOPLE BRING TO YOU. >>MARIA S.: YOU FELT THAT WAY EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES? >>NOE: YES. MY UPBRINGING, IT WAS A MIXED UPBRINGING. I GREW UP WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE FIELDS AND I WOULD HELP MY PARENTS AND THEIR MESSAGE WAS ALWAYS GET OUT AND DO BETTER. I DID NOT KNOW WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE. I DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS AVAILABLE TO ME. I HAD TO FIND MY SPACE AND TO HONOR MY PARENTS MIGRATION BY ENACTING IN A SIMILAR JOURNEY AND FINDING THE MEDICINE AND OTHERS STORIES. SO, YES, I STRONGLY CONNECTED TO THE AUDIENCE. WE HAVE A STRONG CONNECTION. I WAS ALWAYS AWARE THAT I WAS NOT FROM THERE. I WAS CONTEMPLATING WITH THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT WE ARE DISPLACED IN OUR STORIES AND OUR BODIES, ON THE LAND AND HOW WE ARE FORCED TO WORK ON THE LAND IN A WAY THAT, SEVERE'S OUR SPIRITUAL CONNECTION SO I WANTED TO RECONNECT MYSELF TO THE LAND AND THE STORIES THAT MADE ME FEEL BETTER ABOUT WHO I WAS. IT WAS NOT ALWAYS SOMETHING I WAS PROUD OF. WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE A FIELD WORKER, MY DAD SAID JUST GET OUT. THAT WAS A HANG UP FOR ME AND THAT IS BEEN MY JOURNEY. IT CIRCLES BACK TO WHAT IT MEANS TO BE FROM A CERTAIN COMMUNITY, WHAT IT MEANS TO BE LATIN, INDIGENOUS AND WORKING-CLASS. >>MARIA S.: MARIA, YOUR BOOK HIGHLIGHTS WHAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY LIVED THROUGH. IT IS ALSO VERY PERSONAL. YOU REVEALED INTIMATE THINGS YOU WENT THROUGH. WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT TO SHARE THAT? >>MARIA H.: I WAS NOT EXPECTING TO SHARE ALL OF THOSE THINGS. WHEN YOU ARE WRITING A MEMOIR LIKE THIS, IT IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE THERAPY, I HAVE A LOT OF COMMUNICATION WITH MY DAD, AS I WAS WRITING, MAY HE REST IN PEACE, AND MORE TALKING ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES AND IN THE PROCESS OF LOSING MY BEST FRIEND, MY DAD AND MY COUSIN, MY MARRIAGE AT THE BRINK. ALL OF THAT WAS HAPPENING JUST BEFORE I STARTED WRITING THE BOOK. WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, I WAS WRITING THE STORY OF MY LIFE AND IT WAS IMPORTANT. THANK GOD I HAD ALREADY STARTED PROCESSING THAT I WAS A SURVIVOR OF RAPE. I HAD ALREADY STARTED DOING THE WORK. I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE, YOU AND I HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO FEEL COMFORTABLE IN OUR VOICES BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR A WHILE. I WANTED OTHER WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS, AND THE MEN TOO, IN A SENSE THAT ANYONE CAN BE A VICTIM OF RAPE. I WANTED PEOPLE TO FEEL, LIKE THEY WERE SEEN. I WANTED THEM TO FEEL LIKE THEY WERE HEARD. I WANTED THEM TO KNOW, IF YOU ACTUALLY DEAL WITH THE SITUATION, AND THIS GOES TO THAT. I ALSO WROTE ABOUT IMPOSTER SYNDROME. A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY, YOU ARE SO SUCCESSFUL, WHAT WOULD YOU WANT TO REVEAL YOU BATTLED INSECURITY THROUGHOUT YOUR ENTIRE CAREER. I DON'T WANT OTHERS TO GO THROUGH THIS. IT IS WASTED ENERGY. >>MARIA S.: A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IMPOSTER SYNDROME IS A THING, IT IS REAL. NOE I WANTED TO TALK TO ABOUT WHAT DROVE YOU TO DO THIS. WHY DID YOU TAKE A BREAK FROM COLLEGE AND ENJOYING THIS JOURNEY. AT THIS POINT YOU ALREADY IN COLLEGE? WAS THERE A BREAKING POINT? IS THIS SOMETHING YOU WERE CONTEMPLATING FOR A WHILE? >>NOE: I THINK MY WHOLE JOURNEY HAD BEEN GETTING INTO COLLEGE. THEN WHEN I GOT IN, I WAS NOT READY. I DID NOT KNOW WHAT THAT MEANT. I HAD SHAME IN ABANDONING MY FAMILY. MY WHOLE REASON FOR GETTING INTO COLLEGE WAS TO SAY TO THE FAMILY AND THE PRESSURE TO TRY TO HELP MY FAMILY OUT OF THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES REALLY CRUSHED ME. I WAS 19-YEARS-OLD. I WAS GOING HOME BUT IT WASN'T AN OPTION FOR ME. I DID NOT WANT TO BE A FAILURE IN MY FAMILY'S EYES. SO AT THIS MOMENT WHEN I WAS 19 IT COINCIDED WITH THE MOVEMENT OF PEACE AND DIGNITY. I SAID THIS IS THE EDUCATION THAT I NEED. IT'S NOT IN THE BOOKS, BUT TRAVELING TO DIFFERENT LANDS AMONGST THE ELDERS AND SITTING WITH PEOPLE WHO TELL YOU THEIR STORIES ABOUT WHERE THEY ARE FROM, I WAS LACKING THAT. SO MUCH HAD GOTTEN LOST ON THE JOURNEY MY PARENTS TOOK. SOMETHING TO BE LEFT BEHIND. MIGHT PARENTS WERE PROTECTED BY THE STORIES THEY TOLD ME AT THE STORIES THEY DIDN'T TELL ME. I THOUGHT IT WAS MY OBLIGATION TO RECOUP THE FRAGMENTS THAT GET LOST BY ENGAGING IN THE MOVEMENT THEY RAN NORTH AND I ENJOYED THE MOVEMENT DIRECTLY SOUTH BACK TO THE ORIGIN BECAUSE WITHOUT IT, I COULD NOT -- I WOULD BE LOST IN THE WORLD. I NEEDED TO FIND THE FRAMEWORK OF THE CORE OF WHO I WAS BEFORE I COULD DO ANYTHING. COLLEGE WAS A MOMENT FOR ME, WHERE I ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS. WHEN SOMEONE SAID YOU CAN RUN ACROSS NORTH AMERICA IN THE WILD I THOUGHT THIS WAS CRAZY. >>MARIA S.: THAT IS CRAZY. I CANNOT DO MORE THAN 3 MILES. I CAN'T IMAGINE 6,000 MILES BEING EASY. WHAT WAS IT LIKE? WHAT DID YOU CONFRONT THAT WAS UNEXPECTED? >>NOE: EVERY DAY WAS DIFFERENT. THERE IS A SAYING, RUNNING WAS THE EASY PART. IT WAS THE DIFFICULTY OF CONTENDING WITH YOUR OWN SELF AND REALITIES. EVERY DAY WAS A DIFFERENT REASON TO RUN. EVERY DAY YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT EMOTION. ONE DAY YOU WOULD THINK ABOUT YOUR MOM AND THE NEXT DAY YOU WOULD THINK ABOUT YOUR DAD. WE WERE RUNNING FOR STORIES. WE WANTED TO RECUPERATE THE STORIES. WE ARE LAND BASED PEOPLE. OUR RELIGION IS LAND-BASED. YOU CAN MOVE A MOUNTAIN IF YOU DO THIS. WE WERE REFUSING TO LET GO, IT WAS HARD. BUT IT WAS ALSO DIFFICULT CONTENDING TO HOLD A STRONG SPIRITED FOR THE SAKE OF OTHER PEOPLE. WE WERE MESSENGERS CARRYING STORIES THAT REPRESENTED COUNTLESS STORIES OF THE STRUGGLES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, DRUG ADDITION, LOSS LANGUAGE, ALL OF THE THINGS IN THE STATS THAT WE CARRY. VISUAL REMINDERS OF THE RESPONSIBILITIES WE HAVE TO OUR PEOPLE. IT WAS A LOT OF WEIGHT. THERE WAS A JOURNEY THAT I NEEDED TO BE ON. IT CHANGED MY LIFE. >>MARIA S.: MARIA GOING BACK TO YOU YOU SAID YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WENT -- WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH WHEN YOU ARRIVED IN THE U.S. BUT ALSO YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THE IMMIGRATION ISSUES FOR DECADES. HAS ANYTHING CHANGED? AS WE -- CAP WE EVOLVED AS A COUNTRY? I WAS WATCHING THE NEWS OF HUMANS AGO, WATCHING HOW THERE ARE TENS AND THOUSANDS OF HAITIANS AT THE BORDER AND THEY ARE NOW BEING FLOWN BACK TO THEIR COUNTRY, THAT IS JUST TODAY. IF WE LOOK AT THE LAST FOR YEARS, IT HAS BEEN MOSTLY CENTRAL AMERICANS. HAS ANYTHING CHANGED FROM YOUR EXPERIENCES WHEN YOU ARRIVED? >>MARIA H.: IT HAS GOTTEN WORSE. OFTEN I AM ASKED THE QUESTION HOW DO YOU DO WHAT YOU DO BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING THE FRONT LINE REPORTING AND YOU ARE WITH TRAUMA ALL OF THE TIME. PART OF THE THING I DO IS GO AWAY AND I SPEND THE WEEKEND IN NATURE. I TRY TO DISCONNECT. WHEN I DO CHECK-IN I AM HORRIFIED. MY FELLOW JOURNALISTS ARE PUTTING THESE PHOTOGRAPHS AND VIDEOS OF DESPERATE PEOPLE. PART OF WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW WHEN WE SEE THE IMAGES IS PRECISELY WHEN YOU ASK WHAT HAS CHANGED IT IS THE LEVEL OF DEHUMANIZATION HAS DECREASED. SO WHAT NOE DID AND I'M HONORED TO BE HERE ON THIS PANEL WITH YOU NOE, AS A LATINO, LATINA, SOMEONE CONNECTED TO THE EARTH AND SOMEONE WHO LIVES ON STORIES, I AM HAPPY TO BE HERE WITH YOU BECAUSE, THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT IS, I WILL USE THE TERM GAS LIGHTING. I JUST WROTE AN ESSAY FOR MY BULLETIN WHICH IS A WEEKLY NEWSLETTER, I WAS TALKING PRECISELY ABOUT HOW THE IMAGES ARE INCORRECT. TODAY, THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO GOT OUT BECAUSE THERE WAS AN EARTHQUAKE BECAUSE THERE WAS CLIMATE CHANGE AND YOU CAN REPLACE HAITI WITH THE HONDURAS OR GUATEMALA, AND PEOPLE WILL STILL COME AND MY QUESTION IS, AND I KNOW YOU HAVE THE SAME QUESTION, IS THERE REALLY NOT ROOM? AS FAR AS WE KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THIS COUNTRY, HALF OF THE POPULATION GROWTH, AND TOTAL POPULATION GROWTH IN THE UNITED STATES, OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS WAS BECAUSE OF LATINA AND LATINO BIRDS IN THE UNITED STATES, NOT THROUGH MIGRATION. AND WE ARE OKAY. IMAGINE NOW, THAT THIS -- THE HAITIAN PEOPLE COMING, ACTUALLY THEY ARE AN ESSENTIAL PART OF LIFTING UP THE AMERICAN ECONOMY. THAT WOULD BE A CHANGE. TO SAY, WE HAVE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT NARRATIVE AROUND IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES, WE UNDERSTAND THEY ARE AN ESSENTIAL PART OF THE COUNTRY AND IF THEY COME FROM AFGHANISTAN WE WILL LOVE THEM. AND IF THEY ARE COMING FROM THE HUNTERS WE WILL WELCOME THEM. THAT IS WHAT THE STATUE OF LIBERTY SAYS AND SHE IS JUST A STONES THROW AWAY FROM ME AND HARLEM CITY. I AM SORRY I GET SO REVVED UP, I AM DESPERATE. THE SITUATION IS GETTING WORSE. THIS IS NOT THE PAST ADMINISTRATION. CRUELTY MAY NOT BE THE POINT, BUT CRUELTY IS STILL OCCURRING. THAT IS BECAUSE OF BAD CHOICES AROUND IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEES. FRANKLY, I AM SORRY TO SAY THIS, TRIGGER WARNING, I AM SORRY, I REALLY AM BUT I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE, THIS COMES DOWN FROM WHITE SUPREMACY. IT IS A SENSE THAT THIS COUNTRY IS FOR US OR NOT YOU. ACTUALLY THIS COUNTRY WAS AN INDIGENOUS COUNTRY FIRST. THEN PEOPLE WHO SPOKE SPANISH ARRIVED. YOU DON'T READ ABOUT THAT. THEN THE PILGRIMS ARRIVED. SO, THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE FOR ALL OF US. >>MARIA S.: HAVE A COUNTRY -- QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU. AS THE LATINO COMMUNITY GROWS WE ARE THE LARGEST MINORITY IN THE COUNTRY, THE SECOND LARGEST VOTING BLOC, LATINO VOICES BECOME MORE IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT, WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THOSE PERSPECTIVES. NOE, LET'S START WITH YOU. >>NOE: I THINK, THIS IS A SPIRITED RUNT THAT I WRITE ABOUT. THAT MEANS WE ARE ON A LISTENING JOURNEY. I THINK THAT IS THE PART OF IT. THE WORLD IS FRAGMENTED BUT I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT THERE IS INCREDIBLE ENERGY IN THE FRAGMENT. THE WAY WE CHANNEL THAT THROUGH OUR WORDS, IT IS IMPORTANT TO CAPTURE THE VOICE OF THE LATINO, INDIGENOUS OR WORKING-CLASS COMMUNITY. WE ARE DOING IT IN DIFFERENT FORMS. WE NEED TO BRING HEALING THROUGH OUR PAIN AND TRAUMA. I THINK, BUT TIME IS RIGHT. WE ARE TIRED OF BEING DISPLACED IN LITERATURE. WE NEED TO SPEAK OUR TRUTH AND GET IT OUT THERE. WE ALSO NEED TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT INCREASES OUR WORK NARRATIVE. OUR STORY IS BEAUTIFUL. WE HAVE MANY LAYERS. WHAT IT MEANS TO BE FROM THE U.S. THINGS ARE SO COMPLICATED NOW. THAT IS BEAUTIFUL. I AM TIRED -- I'M TRYING TO CAPTURE EVERYTHING. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO CAPTURE AS MANY VOICES AS WE CAN. I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE ARE ON THIS LISTENING JOURNEY BECAUSE I DON'T THINK WE HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THE DIVERSITY THAT IS OUT THERE. THE NEIGHBORS WHO CAN TEACH US AND PASS THAT MEDICINE ONTO US. >>MARIA S.: THAT'S WONDERFUL, MARIA WHAT ABOUT YOU. I KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT. >>MARIA H.: I WAS SO TAKEN BY WHAT NOE WAS SAYING I FORGOT THE QUESTION. >>MARIA S.: I WAS ASKING HOW IMPORTANT ARE LATINO VOICES. WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW ABOUT THE PERSPECTIVE OF LATINO VOICES? >>MARIA H.: IN THIS CASE WITH JOURNALISTS, FOR EXAMPLE WE ARE IN MANY WAYS WE FEEL INVISIBLE. IF LATINOS ARE THE SECOND LARGEST GROUP IN THE UNITED STATES, ETHNIC/RACIAL BECAUSE WE ARE NOT A RACE, WE ARE RACIALLY MIXED. I DON'T USE THE TERM MINORITY BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THAT TERM. BUT YES, FOR LACK OF ANY OF THE TERM ARE THE SECOND LARGEST COHORT. PERFECT. COHORT. WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LATINOS AND THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY. SO, IF LATINOS AND LATINAS ARE NOT BEING HEARD, IF WE ARE NOT BEING ENGAGED ABOUT OUR FEELINGS ON EVERYTHING FROM THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN TO THE ECONOMY TO ENTREPRENEURSHIP TO THE TECH WORLD TO EDUCATION, TO BUSINESS, TO IMMIGRATION, THEN THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG. WE NOW ARE ESSENTIAL TO KEEPING THIS SOCIETY NOT ONLY THRIVING, BUT ACTUALLY, WITH THE VALUES OF DEMOCRACY. I WAS WRITING ABOUT THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW THIS, IN FACT ON ONE HAND IT IS A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD, THERE'S THE BEAUTY OF LATINOS AND LATINOS WANTING TO BE THERE FOREVER. SAID TO GIVE BACK AND MAKE THEM PROUD, IT CAN BE ALSO A WEIGHT AS YOU FELT, NOE. IT WAS TOO MUCH. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS AN INCREDIBLE VALUE IN THAT PERSPECTIVE OF, CARING FOR OTHERS, PUTTING YOUR FAMILY BEFORE YOURSELF. WHAT LATINOS AND LATINAS, HOW WE THINK ABOUT QUOTE UNQUOTE FAMILY VALUES IS WHAT FAMILY VALUES WILL LOOK LIKE IN THE FUTURE. LATINOS ARE THE MOST POWERFUL CONSUMER GROUP IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, WHY, BECAUSE WE OVER INDEX IN TERMS OF WHITE WOMEN IN BLACK WOMEN, WE ARE THE ONES WHO DECIDE WHAT IS CONSUMED IN OUR HOMES. WE ARE ENGAGED IN DEMOCRACY. BUT IT IS DEEPER AND IN THIS CASE, WE NEED PEOPLE TO SEE US. AS YOU KNOW, I GOT FRUSTRATED. I SAID I WILL CREATE MY OWN MEDIA COMPANY. I WILL TELL MY OWN STORIES. BUT WE WANT THE MAINSTREAM TO CSP OR NOT BECAUSE IT MAKES US FEEL GOOD, BUT BECAUSE IT IS FOR THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY, DID NOT -- ECONOMICS, THE DEMOCRACY, THE EDUCATION, ONE OUT OF EVERY FOUR KINDERGARTNERS ARE LATIN. FAMILY OF THE OTHER SIDE, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN FED IS A NARRATIVE OF FEAR, THAT IMMIGRANTS AND LATINOS ARE TAKERS. LISTEN TO TEN, HIS PARENTS WERE WORKING IN THE FIELD AT 4:00 A.M. TO MAKE SURE WE HAD ASPARAGUS AND APPLES. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING? THE THING IS, WE ARE NOT GIVING UP AND OUR STORIES CONTINUE TO BE TOLD. IT IS A LITTLE ABOUT WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT VISIBILITY. IT IS FRUSTRATING. >>MARIA S.: YOU ARE RIGHT. I WANT TO JUMP TO THE QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE. ALL OF THEM ARE OUT THERE. A QUESTION IS ASKING, CONSIDERING EVERYTHING DOES THE SCHOOL SYSTEM DO ENOUGH TO RAISE AWARENESS OF HISPANICS CONTRIBUTION TO THE U.S.? THE QUESTION IS CONSIDERING THE NEW CENSUS DATA, OUR SCHOOLS DOING ENOUGH TO RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT HISPANIC CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE U.S.? >>NOE: I THINK WE CAN ALWAYS DO MORE FOR SURE. YOU HAVE TO GIVE IT TO THE TEACHERS, THEY ARE OVERWORKED, THEY HAVE LITTLE RESOURCES, I THINK THAT IS WHEN CLASSROOMS NEED TO GET CREATIVE ABOUT TEACHING YOUTH ON HOW TO THINK ABOUT WHAT TO THINK. I THINK, YOU PUT ALL YOU CAN INTO FUNDING THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS AND NOT LEAVING KIDS BEHIND, THAT IS ALL WE CAN ASK. WHAT I THINK EDUCATION STARTS IN THE HOME AND OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL. I'VE LEARNED IT ON THE LAND. I LEARNED IT WITH MY ELDERS. WHATEVER WE CAN DO TO DIVERSIFY EDUCATION BEYOND THE CLASSROOM I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT. I HAVE A HIGH ADMIRATION FOR THE TEACHERS FOR ALL THEY HAVE TO DO. >>MARIA S.: THAT NEXT QUESTION IS FROM ROBERT MCCOY. HE SAYS I LOVE HEARING ABOUT EACH OF YOUR STORIES, YOU ARE BOTH INCREDIBLE, MY QUESTION IS WHAT STORIES AS A CHILD INSPIRED YOU TO EMBRACE YOUR CULTURAL AND HERITAGE, MARIA? >>MARIA H.: THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT. I AM SO THANKFUL TO MY PARENTS BEING RAISED IN PEACE, THEY AUTHENTICALLY KNEW WHAT TO DO, SO IT WASN'T BADGERING US OVER THE HEAD AND SAYING YOU ARE A MEXICAN AND YOU SHOULD BE PROUD AND YOU HAVE TO SPEAK SPANISH. WE SPOKE SPANISH IN THE HOME. WE WERE ALL BORN IN MEXICO BUT MY PARENTS WOULD TAKE US, EVERY YEAR TO MEXICO. WE WOULD DRIVE FROM CHICAGO TO MEXICO EVERY YEAR ALL SIX OF US IN THE CAR. THAT WOULD SOLIDIFY MY ROOTS WITH MY LATINO IDENTITY. PARTICULARLY MY MEXICAN IDENTITY WHICH I WAS THEN, WAIT A SECOND, THEY ARE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WHO ARE ALIVE AND THEY BUILT AREAS AND I WAS LIKE WOW, I AM A DESCENDENT OF THIS TOO. IT ALLOWED ME TOO REALLY CENTER MYSELF. ALL OF THAT GAVE ME A BASIS. I ACTUALLY WANTED TO JUMP ON SOMETHING THAT MUTANTS HAD ABOUT EDUCATION. I ACTUALLY LOVE WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT APPRECIATING THE TEACHERS BUT AT THE SAME TIME, NOE THIS COUNTRY IS NOT TEACHING AT ALL ABOUT THE HISTORY AND PRESENCE OF LATINOS. APART FROM INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE TO ARRIVE HERE WERE NOT THE PILGRIMS IN JAMESTOWN. THEY WERE FROM SPAIN, SPEAKING SPANISH AND THEY ARRIVED TO SOUTHERN FLORIDA, SAINT AUGUSTINE. THE SECOND PLACE, OF SETTLEMENT, BEYOND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WAS IN SANTA FE, NEW MEXICO. THAT MEANS SPANISH WAS SPOKEN HERE BEFORE ENGLISH. WE DO NOT LEARNED THAT BUT IMAGINE, IF I KNEW THAT. THEY WERE HERE BEFORE THE SETTLERS. IMAGINE IF THAT WAS THE HEADLINE. WE WILL TEACH WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT THAT WOULD DO TO THE PRIDE OF PEOPLE WHO SPEAK SPANISH. SAID IT IS STILL TAKE SPANISH, ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. >>MARIA S.: THIS QUESTION IS FROM ANNA. WHAT HAS YOUR NEW BOOK MEANT TO YOUR COMMUNITY AND YOUR FAMILY? I WANT YOU TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION BECAUSE IT WAS YOUR FAMILY THAT BEGAN OR PUSHED YOU TOWARDS THIS JOURNEY. NOT THAT THEY PUSHED YOU BUT BECAUSE OF YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THEM, BECAUSE OF THEM AND FOR THEM. >>NOE: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. I'M A PRODUCT OF MY ENVIRONMENT. THOSE EXPERIENCES HAVE BORNE ME AND I THANK THEM. I JUST WANTED TO PAINT A PICTURE OF, CEREMONIOUSLY, WHAT WE DO AS PEOPLE WE COME AROUND THE FIRE AND WE HAVE CONVERSATIONS. I WANTED TO INTRODUCE A CONVERSATION SO PEOPLE COULD SEE THEMSELVES AND A LOT OF RUNNERS IN THE STORY. I THINK IT WAS IMPACTFUL AND ODD ATTENTION TO THE STORIES THAT PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT. PEOPLE DID RONNIE ABOUT THE WAREHOUSE CONDITIONS AND THE BARN LABOR. IT WAS MY OBLIGATION TO PUT THAT OUT THERE IN AS MUCH DETAIL AS I COULD. THIS WAS SO PEOPLE WOULD NOT THINK WE ARE STUCK. I JUST WANTED TO SHOW PEOPLE, THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS OF RESTORING YOUR FIRE AND FINDING YOUR MEDICINE. IT HAS BEEN RECEIVED VERY WELL WITHIN THE COMMUNITY. I'VE BATTLED WITH OUTING MY FAMILY AND MY STORY AND AT THE END OF THE DAY IT WAS MY DUTY TO TELL OUR STORY. WE CANNOT BE QUIET ANYMORE. WE HAVE TO INSPIRE THE YOUTH TO COME FORWARD AND TELL THEIR OWN STORY. >>MARIA S.: WE HAVE TO WRAP IT UP. I WILL ASK A QUESTION AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN ANSWER IT IN ONE MINUTE. WE KNOW THE THEME OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL THIS YEAR'S OPEN A BOOK, OPEN THE WORLD. HOW HAVE YOUR BOOKS OPEN THE WORLD FOR YOU, MARIA? >>MARIA H.: THE BOOKS THAT I HAVE WRITTEN OR THE BOOKS I HAVE READ? 'S -- I HAVE TO SAY, THE TRUTH IS, MOM AND DAD SPOKE SPANISH. ALL OF MY BOOKS WERE SPANISH WERE SPANISH. I DID NOT HAVE TOM SAWYER AND HUCKLEBERRY FINN, THAT WAS NOT MY EXPERIENCE. IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO FEEL LIKE I COULD ENJOYED READING A BOOK OR I SHOULD READ A BOOK. I WAS ASKED RECENTLY WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST BOOKS WHEN I SAID STUART LITTLE, THE OUTSIDERS, DICK AND JANE, IT WAS NOT UNTIL I READ HEMINGWAY THAT I FELT MAYBE I COULD IN FACT, MAYBE BE A WRITER OR JUST RIGHT, AND SO FOR ME BOOKS HAVE BEEN A CONSTANT COMPANION. WE ARE ALWAYS READING FOR WORK BECAUSE I'M GETTING READY TO INTERVIEW SOMEONE WHO HAS WRITTEN A BOOK OR READING SOMEONE'S WORK. FOR ME, I DON'T KNOW, I LOVE IT IN MY HANDS. I LOVE THE BOOK IN MY HANDS. I AGREE, I THINK THIS NOTION OF OPEN A BOOK, OPEN A WORLD, YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE. THIS HAS BEEN A BEAUTIFUL CONVERSATION. THANK YOU TO ALL OF THE VIEWERS. >>MARIA S.: CAN YOU TELL US IN 30 SECONDS, NOE. >>NOE: I DID NOT GROW UP WITH BOOKS. BUT I THINK, IT'S INTRODUCING ME TOO OTHER WORLDS. IT GIVES ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO REIMAGINE THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF MY WORLD. TO TELL MY STORY AND I CAN'T BE ME WITHOUT MY WRITING. I WOULD ENCOURAGE ANYONE WHO HAS SOMETHING TO SAY TO OPEN YOUR BOOKS, EXPOSE YOURSELF TO OTHER OPPORTUNITIES AND YOU WILL FIND HEALING. >>MARIA S.: THANK YOU SO MUCH. THANK YOU IT WAS A PLEASURE SPEAKING TO YOU AND THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FOR HOLDING THIS POSSIBLE AND INVITING ME TOO MODERATE THIS PANEL. IT WAS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO THESE WONDERFUL AUTHORS, I'M SO GLAD IT IS NOT JUST ME TOO KNOW YOU BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW YOU AND THEY KNOW HOW MAGNIFICENT YOU BOTH ARE AND HOW MUCH YOU CONTRIBUTED. HAPPY DISPARATE -- HAPPY HISPANIC HERITAGE MONTH. [END OF SESSION] >> SPONSORED BY THE JAMES MADISON COUNSEL. >>DAVID: MY NAME IS DAVID I'M INTERVIEWING TWO PEOPLE ARE WRITTEN A VERY INTERESTING NOVEL THEY ARE ELLIOT ACKERMAN AND JAMES STAVRIDIS. I WOULD SAY THEIR BOOK, BOOK: 2034: A NOVEL OF THE NEXT WORLD WAR IS AN EXCELLENT DESCRIPTION OF WHAT COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN DOWN THE ROAD BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA AND OTHER COUNTRIES TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK. IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME DO INTERVIEWS OUR FOCUS ON NONFICTION. I'M NOT A BIG FICTION READER BUT I READ THIS AND I ENJOYED IT SO MUCH I DECIDE TO READ MORE FICTION BECAUSE IT IS INTERESTING AND I RECOMMEND IT TO EVERYONE. LET ME INTRODUCE ELLIOT ACKERMAN FIRST. HE IS A JOURNALIST AND A NOVEL IS. HE IS A GRADUATE OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY SOME, LOTTIE HE SERVED SEVEN YEARS IN THE MARINES WERE HE SERVED IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND SOUTHEAST ASIA, I WOULD SAY IT WAS AFGHANISTAN. HE WAS AWARDED THE SILVER STAR AND THE PURPLE HEART. HE IS NOW WRITING A NUMBER OF BOOKS AND RIGHTS FOR A NUMBER OF PUBLICATIONS. HE HAS A PERSON WHO LIVES IN WASHINGTON D.C. AND SOMEONE I HAVE COME TO KNOW. I'VE KNOWN HIS FATHER AND I'M PLEASED THAT EPIC -- ELLIOTT COMBINED WITH JAMES STAVRIDIS. HE ALSO MANAGED TO GET A MASTERS AND PHD FROM THE SCHOOL OF DIPLOMACY WHERE HE SERVED AS A DEAN. AFTER HE LEFT HIS NAVY POSITION HE WAS HEAD OF THE SOUTHERN COMMAND, AND ALSO SERVED AS THE SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER IN EUROPE. HE IS DEEPLY INVOLVED IN WRITING. THIS IS HIS TENTH BOOK. HE IS ALSO INVOLVED IN PHILANTHROPIC MATTERS. HE'S THE CHAIR OF THE BOARD OF THE ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IS THE VICE CHAIR FOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS AT THE GROUP WHERE A FIRM HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH FROM THE BEGINNING. THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING ABOUT THE BOOK. FIRST, LET ME ASK EITHER OR BOTH OF YOU, HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO COME TOGETHER TO WRITE A BOOK AND WAS IT HARD TO WRITE THE BOOK AND WHO WROTE WHAT AND HOW DID YOU FIGURE OUT, HOW TO MAKE THIS WORK. >> LET ME TRY THE FIRST PART. I PUT TOGETHER AN IDEA, LOOKING AT COLD WAR LITERATURE WHICH WE ARE OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER. >>ADM. JAMES: ON THE BEACH, AND I THOUGHT, THERE IS NO COMPARATIVE BODY OF LITERATURE FOR UNFORTUNATELY THE COLD WAR THAT I THINK WE ARE WALKING INTO WITH CHINA. SO I PITCHED BACK TO MY EDITOR, AND HE TOSSED THE IDEA OVER TO ELLIOTT FOR THE TWO OF US TO WRITE TOGETHER. >>ELLIOT: I WOULD ONLY ADD THAT I THINK OUR EDITOR DID NOT REALIZE WE HAD KNOWN EACH OTHER FOR THE BETTER PART OF TEN YEARS. WHEN JIM WAS 13 AT THE SCHOOL HE HAD ME THERE AND ONE OF MY DUTIES, WHEN I ASKED HIM WHAT DOES IT ENTAIL TO GIVE A RESIDENCY IT WAS TO TALK ABOUT BOOKS WHEN HE FEEL LIKES IT. WE HAD A SHARED SENSIBILITY. ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAD, WAS A SHARED VISION OF WHAT IT WOULD BE, AT THAT WOULD BE A CAUTIONARY TALE, AND ONE VERY MUCH CHARACTER DRIVEN. IN 2034, YOU ENTER THE WORLD THROUGH THE EYES OF FIVE DIVERSE CHARACTERS. >>DAVID: JIMMY CARTER TRIED TO WRITE A BOOK WITH HIS WIFE AND HE SAID THAT IS THE CLOSEST THEY CAME TO GETTING DIVORCED. WAS IT EASY TO WRITE WITH SOMEONE ELSE WHEN YOU'RE NOT USED TO DOING THAT OR DO YOU STILL TALK TO EACH OTHER YOU ARE HAPPY WITH EACH OTHER? >>ADM. JAMES: THE BEST WAY I CAN SAY IT IS WE HAVE SIGNED A CONTRACT TO WRITE NOT ONE BUT TWO SEQUELS, 2054 AND 2074 TO FOLLOW THE STORYLINES DEEP INTO THE 21st CENTURY. I WOULD LET ELLIOTT ANSWER BOOK FOR ME WAS A JOY TO WORK WITH SOMEONE I CONSIDER A REAL NOVELIST WHO HAS PUBLISHED SIX NOVELS AND A FINALISTS. I CONSIDER MYSELF, A LUCKY PART OF THE COUPLE IN WRITING THE BOOK. >>ELLIOT: I WOULD AD, THE FACT THAT WE HAD A SHARED VISION OF WHAT THIS BOOK WOULD BE, IT WAS A JOY. I LIKE TO TELL PEOPLE FOR A BOOK THAT IS ABOUT A GRIM SUBJECT, WE CERTAINLY HAD FUN WRITING IT. >>DAVID: THE BASIC PREMISE OF THE BOOK IS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA GO TO WAR, AND NUCLEAR BOMBS ARE SET OFF IN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA. IN SOME CASES, YOU COULD SAY WITH A LOT OF FORETHOUGHT AND IN SOME THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO NOT HAVE THEM GO OFF BUT THEY COULD NOT BE PREVENTED. YOU HAVE CITIES WHERE THEY WENT OFF WAS IT HARD TO PICK WHICH CITY YOU WANTED TO DESIGNATE? >>ADM. JAMES: IT WAS A JOINT DECISION AND WE TRIED TO SPREAD THE WEALTH. TWO BIG CITIES IN THE UNITED STATES TO BIG CITIES AND CHINA INCLUDING ONE THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT. I THINK UNFORTUNATELY THAT IS THE REALITY OF A WAR. YOU ARE NOT PICKING WHICH CITY ENDS UP UNDER A MUSHROOM CLOUD, YOUR OPPONENT IS. IN THE NOVEL WE WERE ACCURATE ABOUT THE CITIES THAT THE CHINA WITH. AND UNITED STATES. THE GOOD NEWS, THE BOOK IS NOT APOCALYPTIC, THE WORLD DOES NOT IN. IT IS A CAUTIONARY TALE. BOTH NATIONS WALK UP TO THE EDGE OF THE STRATEGIC MOMENT, BOTH STEP BACK. BUT STILL, AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF DESTRUCTION AND LOSS. >>DAVID: THE THEORY BEHIND NUCLEAR WEAPON STREAK SINCE THE FIRST TWO BOMBS WERE DROPPED ON HIROSHIMA, SOMEONE ELSE YOU DROP ONE ON, THEY WILL DROP ONE ON YOU AND THAT WILL CAUSE DESTRUCTION. THAT HAPPENED HERE. UNITED STATES IN YOUR NOVEL HAD A NUCLEAR BOMB LAUNCHED ON CHINA AND CHINA RETALIATED AND THEN WE RETALIATE AGAIN DO YOU THINK THE DOCTRINE OF MUTUAL DESTRUCTION HAS CAP NUCLEAR BOMBS FROM BEING LAUNCHED SINCE NAGASAKI AND HIROSHIMA? >>ADM. JAMES: I THINK IT HAS. THE KEY IS, IN THE NOVEL THESE ARE TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS. NO ONE GOES STRATEGIC AS IN DESTROYING THE OTHER SOCIETY ENTIRELY. BUT THE CAUTIONARY TALE THAT ELLIOTT MENTIONED IS SIMPLE. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CONTROL THE ESCALATION THAT THIS STARTS IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, FROM SHIPS GETS LOCKED AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE GOING BACK-AND-FORTH. IT'S HARD TO WALK AWAY FROM THAT THAT IS THE CAUTIONARY TALE. >>DAVID: THE NOVEL FOCUSES ON TWO ISSUES THAT ARE DISPUTES BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA. ONE IS TAIWAN AND ONE IS IS THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. DO YOU BELIEVE THOSE ISSUES WILL BE WITH US THROUGH 2034 AND NOT BE RESOLVED? DO YOU THINK THOSE ISSUES CAN BE RESOLVED IN THE REAL WORLD? >>ELLIOT: I THINK THAT SINCE THE BOOK HAS COME OUT. CRITICISM THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED WHICH HAS BEEN WELL TAKEN IS THAT, LOVE THE BOOK, I THINK THE SCENARIO IS PLAUSIBLE, BUT YOU HAVE THE DATE WRONG. THE DATE IS ACTUALLY CLOSER TO US THAN 2034. I DO NOT WANT TO SPEAK FOR -- BUT I THINK THESE ISSUES ARE VERY MUCH IN PLAY. >>DAVID: FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT EXPERTS WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A STRATEGIC AND TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPON ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE THE TARGET OF ONE OF THOSE? >>ADM. JAMES: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF THE ACTUAL WEAPON LANDING ON YOUR CITY. THE DIFFERENCES A STRATEGIC NUCLEAR STRIKE IS ONE THAT GOES AFTER THE CAPITAL. THE CHIEF FINANCIAL CENTER. ALL OF THE MILITARY TARGETS. ALL OF THE MAJOR SOCIOLOGICAL CENTERS OF YORK AREA. ANY CITY WITH A POPULATION LARGER THAN 1 MILLION PEOPLE OR IN THE CASE OF CHINA, A TACTICAL NUCLEAR STRIKE IS ONE THAT USES A SMALLER WEAPON THAT GOES AFTER A MORE DISCREET TARGET. PERHAPS A SHIPYARD. PERHAPS A SINGLE CITY. PERHAPS ONE OIL REFINERY. IT IS A DIFFERENCE IN SCALE, NOT SO MUCH IN TARGETING. >>DAVID: YOU MAY COMMENT ON THIS BUT IT IS NOT IN YOUR NOVEL, HOW DOES THE PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES ACTUALLY DECIDE TO LAUNCH A NUCLEAR WEAPON, CAN HE DO IT BY HIMSELF AND IF HE SAID JUST, HOW DOES SOMEONE SAY THAT IS A MISTAKE, AND DO YOU HAVE CODES AND COULD SOMEONE LOSE THE CODES, ARE YOU SURE THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKS? >>ADM. JAMES: I'M SURE THE SYSTEM WORKS. WE WILL NOT LOSE THE CODES. IN MY VIEW THE PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES CAN'T WAKE UP ON A TUESDAY MORNING AND LAUNCH A NUCLEAR WEAPON. THAT IS THE REALITY OF THE SYSTEM. IT IS THERE BECAUSE OF OUR CONCERN THAT IF RUSSIA, IN PARTICULAR LAUNCHED A MASSIVE STRIKE WE WOULD WANT TO RETALIATE MASSIVELY BEFORE RUSSIAN MISSILES COULD TAKE OUT OUR STRATEGIC NUCLEAR SYSTEM. I THINK THAT AS WE ARE COMING OFF OF RECENT EVENTS, THERE IS A LEGITIMATE REEVALUATION OF WHETHER WE OUGHT TO LET THE PRESIDENT DO THAT OR NOT I WILL CLOSE BY FAN A LOT OF CONTROVERSY ABOUT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEF. HIS ROLE IS NOT TO SAY YES OR NO ON A STRIKE BUT HIS ROLE IS VERY MUCH BEING INVOLVED IN THE CONFERENCE CALL WHERE SUCH DECISIONS ARE MADE TO PROVIDE HIS MILITARY ADVICE. I THINK BY ALL REPORTS, WHAT HE HAS PURPORTED TO DO TO ENSURE HE WAS PART OF ADVISING THE PRESIDENT MAKES SENSE TO ME. BUT I THINK THE LARGER QUESTION DAVID IS, WHETHER WE REALLY WANT A SINGLE PERSON TO HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF OUR NUCLEAR ARSENAL. THAT IS THE SITUATION WE ARE IN TODAY. >>DAVID: IN YOUR BOOK YOU MADE INDIA A VERY BIG POWER. INDIA HAS ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF POWER TO CONTROL OUR OWN COMMUNICATIONS AT SOME POINT. IS IT YOUR PERSONAL VIEW, BOTH OF YOU THAT INDIA WILL BE THE NEXT GREAT MILITARY POWER AS WELL AS THE NEXT ECONOMIC POWER? >>ELLIOT: I THINK INDIA FULFILLS A GREAT ROLE. IF WE LOOK AT THE LAST 100 YEARS, THEY HAVE BEEN AN AMERICAN CENTURY. IF THEY ARE AN AMERICAN CENTURY IT WAS BERT OUT OF EUROPEAN VIBRATIONS. THE 1st AND 2nd WORLD WAR. THOSE WERE TWO WARS THAT THE UNITED STATES DID NOT START BUT WE CERTAINLY FINISH. IN THE RECENT YEARS THE UNITED STATES HAVE GOTTEN VERY ADEPT AT STARTING WARS BUT NOT FINISHING THEM. THE QUESTION BECOMES A STORY AND PREMISED ON THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA STARTING A WAR, WHO FINISHES THE WAR. OFTEN TIMES THE NATIONS ARE THE TRUE BENEFICIARIES OF WARTS MAY NOT BE THE ONES WHO STARTED IT. I HOPE I AM NOT GIVING TOO MUCH AWAY BUT INDIA DOES PLAY A BIG ROLE IN THE ENDGAME OF THIS WAR. IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE INDIA. BUT IT ASK THE QUESTION JUST BECAUSE YOU START A WAR IT DOESN'T MEAN ONE OR THE OTHER WILL BE THE BENEFICIARY. >>ADM. JAMES: LET ME HAVE ANOTHER POINT, DO WE THINK INDIA, BY 2034 WILL HAVE THE CAPABILITIES WE PUT IN THE NOVEL, I THINK REALISTICALLY THE ANSWER IS NO BLOOD BY 2054, 2074, 2074, 2094, AT THE END OF THE DAY, 300 YEARS FROM NOW WHEN THE HISTORY IS WRITTEN, A HISTORIAN WILL LOOK BACK AND IT WILL BE ABOUT THE RIGHTS IN CHINA IT WILL BE ABOUT THE RISE OF INDIA. THAT IS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM. BY 2034, PERHAPS NOT, BUT THE CHARACTERISTICS ARE MARKERS FOR WHERE WE BOTH THINK INDIA COULD HEAD. >>DAVID: LET ME ASK YOU, WHEN YOU WRITE A NOVEL DO YOU KNOW ON DAY ONE HOW IT WILL END OR DO YOU FIGURE IT OUT AS YOU GO ALONG? >>DAVID: -- >>ELLIOT: YOU CERTAINLY FIGURE IT OUT AS YOU GO ALONG. WHEN A BOOK BEGINS, YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS ABOUT. BUT CERTAINLY FOR THIS BOOK, NEITHER OF US KNEW HOW IT WOULD IN BUT ONE OF THE JOYS OF WRITING A NOVEL, AS YOU BECOME MORE ENGAGED WITH THE CHARACTERS OF THE STORY, THE STORY REVEALS ITSELF SO THEN THE END IS REVEALED TO YOU. IN OUR CASE WE WERE ABLE TO PUT IT ON THE PAGE. >>DAVID: YOU IDENTIFIED THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AS A WOMAN. YOU NEVER SAY HER NAME OR GIVE ANY CHARACTER DESCRIPTIONS. SHE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE THAT DEEPLY INVOLVED IN THE DAY-TO-DAY DECISIONS ABOUT LAUNCHING WEAPONS. WHY DID YOU IDENTIFY HER, WHY DIDN'T YOU IDENTIFIED IDENTIFY THE LEADERS OF CHINA OR RUSSIA EITHER. WHY DID YOU DO IT THAT WAY? >>DAVID: TWO ANSWERS THE FIRST ONE IS STYLISTIC, AS YOU KNOW DAVID WHENEVER THE PRINCIPAL WALKS INTO THE ROOM IT SUCKS THE OXYGEN OUT OF THE ROOM. WE WANTED TO TELL THE STORY AT THE LEVEL OF THE OPERATORS. THE PEOPLE BEHIND-THE-SCENES MAKING THINGS HAPPEN. I THINK ALSO, IN THESE TIMES, THIS GIVES MORE ROOM FOR THE CHARACTERS. BUT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, IS A WOMAN AND THAT IS REMARKABLE. I THINK WE WOULD BE SHOCKED IF WE DIDN'T HAVE A FEMALE PRESIDENT BY THEN. SHE'S NEITHER A REPUBLICAN NOR A DEMOCRAT. BY THIS POINT THE POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE BECOME SO DYSFUNCTIONAL SHE IS ELECTED AS THE FIRST INDEPENDENT PRESIDENT WHILE SHE SERVES SINCE GEORGE WASHINGTON. >>ADM. JAMES: I WOULD AVENUE AND DAVID YOU ARE THE HISTORIAN AND YOU HAVE A BOOK COMING OUT ABOUT HISTORY. YOU KNOW, WE DID NOT START AS REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS. NEWSFLASH, IT IS NOT IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL. ARTICLE XX THERE SHALL BE TWO POLITICAL PARTIES, WE HAVE HAD FEDERALIST, NATIONALIST, PROGRESSIVES, THE ORIGINAL NAME OF TEDDY ROOSEVELT'S PARTY. WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF POLITICAL PARTIES. MY GUESS IS, WE ARE RIPE FOR A NEW POLITICAL PARTY OVER THE COMING DECADES. >>DAVID: YOU DIDN'T DESCRIBE THE HORROR OF THE DEATHS BY RADIATION. YOU DIDN'T GO INTO THAT. I ASSUME THERE'S A REASON. BUT WHAT WAS THE REASON? >>ELLIOT: LK. >>ADM. JAMES: ANY NOVEL YOU WANT TO CREATE A FRAME. OUR FRAME WAS THIS COLLECTION OF INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERS. NONE OF THEM WERE INVOLVED IN THAT DESTRUCTION. NONE WHERE THAT CITY. THEY HAD CONNECTIONS OF COURSE LIKE ANYONE WOULD BUT THE IDEA OF THE BOOK FROM MY PERSPECTIVE WAS TO ATTRACT THESE CHARACTERS WHO WERE STALKING AND TELL THE STORY THROUGH THEIR EYES. BIG DOORS SWING ON SMALL HINGES. DO YOU THINK ADMIRAL OR ELLIOT THAT CYBER WARFARE WILL BE IMPORTANT. YOU DO DESCRIBED THE ABILITY OF SOME COUNTRIES IN THIS BOOK TO WIPE OUT THE COMMUNICATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, HOW REALISTIC IS THAT TO HAPPEN? THIS IS FROM SPACE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN. CYBER AND CYBER SECURITY NUMBER THREE, SPECIAL FORCES, DELETE PERFORMANCE HUMAN BEINGS, THOSE THREE THINGS TOGETHER IN THE SYNERGIES IS WHERE WAR IS GOING. WE TRY TO LAY THAT OUT IN THE NOVEL. >>DAVID: ADMIRAL, YOU ARE A NAVY MAN AND ELLIOTT YOU ARE A MARINE WHICH IS PART OF THE NAVY I GUESS YOU WOULD SAY, WHY IS IT THE SENIOR PEOPLE ARE ADMIRALS IN YOUR BOOK, WHY DO NOT HAVE GENERALS, CAN THEY DO ANYTHING GOOD? >>ELLIOT: DAVID I WOULD BEG TO DIFFER ON ONE POINT. WE HAVE ONE RETIRED ARMY OFFICER IN THE BOOK. HE PLAYS AN ADVISORY AND HE IS ONE OF THE ARCH VILLAINS. I WOULD ALLOW JIM TO SPEAK MORE. >>ADM. JAMES: HE IS ALSO A WEST POINT GRADUATE. I THINK THAT ANSWERS THE QUESTION, DAVID. WE NEED MORE ADMIRALS AND THE GENERALS WILL GET ALONG BETTER. >>DAVID: AS WE GO FORWARD, WILL THIS BOOK BECOME A MOVIE, 2034, OR YOU CAN'T SAY? >>ELLIOT: THERE HAS BEEN A NUMBER OF PEOPLE INTERESTED AND WE ARE WORKING WITH ONE TEAM RIGHT NOW. WE HOPE THAT IT WILL COME TO THE SCREEN. WE THINK THERE HAS BEEN IN THE PAST, A RICH HISTORY OF WHEN I SAY LITERATURE I WILL INCLUDE FILM, I REMEMBER WATCHING WHEN WE WERE YOUNGER, FILMS LIKE DR. STRANGELOVE OR OR READ DON OR WARGAMES, I THINK THE COLD WAR WAS SO RICHLY IMAGINE THAT ONE THING THAT PREVENTED IT THAT THE SOVIETS COULD AGREE ON A FEW THINGS BUT NOT TOO MANY AND IT WAS WANT TO AVOID. AS HENRY KISSINGER SAID, THE FOOTHILLS OF THE COLD WAR WITH CHINA I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO IMAGINE THE EVENT SO WE CAN AVOID THEM IN BOOKS AND ON THE SCREEN. >>DAVID: WHEN YOU THINK IS THE MAIN MESSAGE OF THE BOOK, IF YOU WERE TO ENCAPSULATE IT INTO A PARAGRAPH OR SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO READ THE BOOK OR TAKING SHOULD THEY READ THE BOOK OR BY THE BOOK WHAT IS THE MAIN MESSAGE? >>ADM. JAMES: THE MESSAGE I TRIED TO CONVEY AND I LOVE ELLIOTT'S ANSWER BECAUSE I THINK IT FITS TOGETHER. LINE IS IF YOU DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE WAY IN WHICH NATIONS ARE WORKING -- WALKING TO CONFLICT THE CHANCES ARE HIGHER. IT IS NOT A BOOK THAT ECHOES IN THE IN THE COLD WAR WITH THE SOVIET UNION IT ECHOLS WORLD WAR I, 1914, AND THE WAY ALL OF THESE NATIONS OF EUROPE COMPLETELY INTERTWINED ECONOMIES LIKE OURS AND CHINA AND MANAGED TO STUMBLE INTO A WAR THAT DESTROYED EUROPE AND ENDED THE HUNGARIAN EMPIRE. THE KAISER'S GERMANY. THE SIMPLE MESSAGES, PAY ATTENTION, AND I HOPE THAT INDIVIDUALS WHO READ THE BOOK AND THINK ABOUT HOW WE AVOID SLEEPWALKING INTO A WAR. ELLIOTT. >>ELLIOT: I WOULD ONLY ADD, SOMETHING THAT RESONATED WITH ME, IF YOU DO PICK UP THE BOOK, WE INVITE YOU TO COME INTO THIS WORLD OF 2034. WE HOPE THAT AS YOU SHUT THE LAST PAGE, LOOK OUT OF YOUR WINDOW, LOOK AT YOUR KIDS OR GRANDKIDS OR WALK DOWN THE STREET AND SEE YOUR NEIGHBORS OR FRIENDS, SMELL THE AIR. THIS WORLD IS PRETTY GOOD. WE SHOULD TRY TO AVOID CONFLICTS LIKE THIS AT ALL COSTS. WHAT WE HAVE IS CERTAINLY WORTH PRESERVING. >>DAVID: HERE IS A QUESTION FROM ANNA. DID YOU BOTH HAVE AN INTEREST IN HISTORICAL FICTION BEFORE WRITING 2034, WHAT BOOKS INSPIRED YOU? >>ADM. JAMES: YES, ENORMOUSLY. I LOVE HISTORICAL FICTION. ONE THAT IS ALWAYS ON MY MIND, IT IS CATES OF FIRE BY STEPHEN P THE SPARTANS ON GREEK AMERICANS. I AM REQUIRED TO GET A GREEK REFERENCE INTO EVERY PRESENTATION. HISTORICAL FICTION OPENS YOUR MIND TO DISASTERS AND SUCCESSES OF THE PAST. ANOTHER THAT COMES IMMEDIATELY TO MIND IS WENTZ OF WAR. WE DID NOT WANT TO WRITE A HUGE DOOR STOPPER WITH 100 MAJOR CHARACTERS BUT THE IDEA ILLUMINATING THE PAST, AND IN THIS CASE THINKING INTO THE FUTURE, MADE A LOT OF SENSE. ELLIOTT. >>ELLIOT: I HAVE BEEN A LOVER OF HISTORICAL FICTION. I TRIED TO READ, THE BATTLE OF GETTYSBURG HAD A LEAN CAST OF CHARACTERS. IS A BOOK I'VE ALWAYS LOVED. SHAKESPEARE'S HENRY THE FIFTH IS A BOOK THAT I LOVE ABOUT -- A PLAY THAT I LOVE, THAT WAS THE BOOK I WAS THINKING ABOUT WHEN WE WROTE THIS. IT'S ALSO MORE LIKE SCIENCE FICTION. I ALSO HAD A CLASSIC THAT I RETURNED TO MANY TIMES. >>ADM. JAMES: I WANT TO ADD ONE, THE BOOK DOOMED ABOUT, ESSENTIALLY AN ARROW LIKE WORLD IN THE FUTURE AND A BATTLE FOR LIBERTY AND FREEDOM. LITERATURE AND FICTION, DAVID, I AM NOW GLAD YOU ARE PLEDGING TO READ 20 NOVELS PER YEAR. >>DAVID: I WILL CERTAINLY READ ALL OF YOURS. HEAR SOMETHING FROM BOB. I WORK 56 REPORT NAVY SHIP IS GONE, STAFFING SHORTAGES, LOW MORALE, IS ANY OF THIS COVERED IN YOUR BOOK WHEN YOU DISCUSSED THE NAVY? >>ADM. JAMES: IT IS COVERED IN THE SENSE AS THE NOVEL OPENS THE NAVY IS OVERMATCHED BY CHINA. THAT IS REALISTIC LOOKING AT THE TRENDLINES WE ARE DEALING WITH TODAY. TODAY'S NAVY IS ACTUALLY AROUND 270 SHIP. CHINA'S COMPARATIVE IS 350. CHINA IS OVERTAKING US. IF WE DO NOT STEP UP AND BUILD THE NAVY AND OUR MARINE CORPS TO OPERATE ALONGSIDE WE WILL BE AT A DISADVANTAGE. WE NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF THIS NOT BECAUSE WE WANT TO INVADE OR ATTACK CHINA NOT BECAUSE WE WANT A LAND WAR IN ASIA BUT WE WANT TO DETER CHINA. I THINK THE GENESIS OF THE QUESTION IS CORRECT. >>DAVID: ALBO QUESTION. CAN YOU EXPLAIN ADMIRAL, THE DISPUTE GOING ON NOW BETWEEN AUSTRALIA, THE UNITED STATES AND FRANCE. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SUBMARINES THAT ARE NOW GOING TO BE BUILT AND WHAT KIND WERE GOING TO BE BILLED BY THE FRENCH AND WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SUBMARINES? >>ADM. JAMES: THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DIESEL SUBMARINE WHICH IS WHAT FRANCE WAS GOING TO BUILD FOR AUSTRALIA AND A NUCLEAR POWERED SUBMARINE IS ENORMOUS. A DIESEL SUBMARINE, THINK OF IT LIKE A HYBRID CAR. IT HAS A BATTERY THAT OPERATES A LOT OF THE TIME BUT IT HAS AN ENGINE THAT KICKS IN WHEN HE NEEDS TO GO FASTER. OVER HERE THAT NUCLEAR POWERED SUBMARINE IS SILENT. IT DOES NOT NEED FUEL, EVER. IT CAN GO ENDLESS DISTANCES. IT NEVER HAS TO SURFACE. IT IS VASTLY SUPERIOR TO THE DIESEL SUBMARINE. SO THE AUSTRALIANS IN MY VIEW CORRECTLY SAID, THREE THINGS, NUMBER ONE, WE WANT THAT TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE THE PACIFIC IS VAST, NUMBER TWO, WE WANT TO BE MORE ALIGNED WITH THE UNITED STATES WHICH IS A PACIFIC POWER IN THE WAY FRANCE HAS NOT BEEN A PACIFIC POWER SINCE THE 1600S. THIRDLY THE AUSTRALIAN SAID, WE WANT TO BE PART OF FACING CHINA AND TO DO THAT WE NEED A NUCLEAR POWERED SUBMARINE. BOTTOM LINE A SMART MOVE BY THE AUSTRALIANS. IT HAS SHAFT BOOK FRENCH UNDERSTANDABLY I THINK THE U.S. FRENCH AND THE AUSTRALIAN FRENCH RELAY STATION -- RELATIONSHIPS ARE BIGGER THAN THIS THERE WILL BE A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT. I THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT MOVE FOR AUSTRALIA. >>DAVID: ELLIOTT, YOU GRADUATED FROM TALKED UNIVERSITY; LOTTIE AND YOU HAVE A VERY DISTINGUISHED SET OF PARENTS I KNOW THEM BOTH VERY WELL, WHAT WAS THEIR REACTION WHEN YOU SAID YOU WILL JOIN THE MARINES AND GO INTO COMBAT AND I WILL BE RISKING MY LIFE. WHAT WAS THEIR REACTION? >>ELLIOT: I ACTUALLY JOINED THE MARINES IN 1998 SO WAS BEFORE 911 AS WE PASS THE ANNIVERSARY IT IS REMARKABLE TO THINK HOW MUCH THE WORLD HAS CHANGED. THE MARINE CORPS I ENTERED WAS A PEACETIME INCORPORATE I WAS AN ROTC STUDENT AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY. LATE IN MY JUNIOR YEAR OF SCHOOL, EARLY IN MY SENIOR YEAR, WAS 911. ENTIRE PARADIGM OF THE WORLD SHIFTED AND I WAS COMMISSIONED AS BRAND-NEW AND THE SECOND LIEUTENANT IN 2,003. THEY WERE SUPPORTIVE, BUT I THINK EVERY PERSON SERVES BUT EVERY FAMILY THAT SERVES, RELATE TAKES A JOURNEY INTO UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE NATURE OF THAT SERVICE MEANS. AS MUCH AS WE HAVE MANY AMERICANS WHO SERVE IN THESE WARS WE HAVE MANY FAMILIES WHO HAVE ALSO DONE THEIR OWN SERVICE AND IN MANY WAYS THEIR SERVICES MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE THEY DON'T NECESSARILY EXERCISE THE SAME AGENCY THAT THERE FAMILY MEMBERS OR SPOUSES HAVE OVERSEAS. WHEN YOU ARE IN A WAR ZONE YOU KNOW WHEN YOU ARE BACK ON THE BASE OR WHEN YOU ARE OUT TAKING RISK OUTSIDE OF THE WIRE. YOUR FAMILY DOESN'T NECESSARILY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE AND THEY ARE JUST WAITING AT HOME WITH ANXIETY ABOUT YOUR WELL-BEING. EVERY FAMILY TAKES THAT JOURNEY IN MIND DID TOO. >>DAVID: ADMIRAL, CAN A ROGUE NAVY COMMANDER WHO COMMANDS A NUCLEAR ARMED SUBMARINE LAUNCHED ONE WITHOUT ORDERS FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, IS THAT POSSIBLE? >>ADM. JAMES: IT IS NOT. THAT IS A SIMPLE QUESTION. ABSOLUTELY NOT. BELIEVE ME, THAT IS THE WAY WE WANT IT. THE QUESTION IS, DO WE WANT THE PRESIDENT, EVEN THOUGH HE OR SHE IS THE ELECTED OFFICIAL, TO HAVE THAT INCREDIBLE POWER TO SIMPLY LAUNCH A NUCLEAR STRIKE. THIS IS A CONVERSATION WE NEED TO HAVE BEEN A NATIONAL LEVEL. I WOULD SAY IT IS TIME TO STEP AWAY FROM THAT LONE MAN OR WOMAN AND CREATE A SYSTEM THAT HAS A FEW MORE CHECKS AND BALANCES BEFORE WE VOTE TO IN THE WORLD. >>DAVID: SO ADMIRAL FOR THE LAST 25 SECONDS, YOU HAVE ONE OF THE GREATEST TITLES IN THE WORLD SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER WITH THAT WHAT DID YOUR WIFE CALL YOU OR YOUR CHILDREN CALL YOU WHEN YOU ARE THE SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER? >>ADM. JAMES: THAT'S EASY THEY CALL ME SUPREME OLD. WE CONTINUED THAT TODAY. NO, THEY CALLED ME DAD, JIM. IT IS ALL GOOD. BUT THANK YOU FOR THAT. ABOVE ALL THANK YOU FOR HAVING ELLIOTT AND I ON TODAY. YOU HAVE DONE YOUR AND CREED WILL -- YOU HAVE DONE A GREAT JOB. >>DAVID: THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS BOOK AND I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT. I WANT TO THANK THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL FOR MAKING THIS POSSIBLE. THANK YOU. >>ELLIOT: THANK YOU. >>ADM. JAMES: THANK YOU. [EVENT CONCLUDED]

Channel: Library of Congress

Views: 1,936

Rating: 4.9603958 out of 5

Keywords: Library of Congress

Id: hcobEAZHSEU

Length: 410min 35sec (24635 seconds)

Published: Sun Sep 19 2021