Narcissist vs Bipolar

who's going to win who's going to have the power and then it's very easy to sort of label the other with narcissism or by polar or any other label but what it's really about is that power Dynamic that the fight to who has the power in the relationship this is like the new version of Men Are from Mars Women Are from Venus it's like men are narcissistic and women are bipolar welcome to the me and US podcast a conversation between two relationship therapists who talk about real life issues based on what they learn in a clinical setting working with clients and from their own experiences of motherhood marriage and parenting hello good morning hi Elsa hi Olivia here we are meeting virtually again yes and welcome to the me and US podcast and today we are going to be talking about this idea men are narcissists and women are bipolar what do you think of that Elsa that is something that I have heard um very recurringly in my clinical sessions and I have noticed it and I have been surprised at how often these two words bipolar and narcissist come up in um relational Dynamics so I'm very excited to discuss this because I've been thinking about how Loosely we use those terms and how present they are um and you know I I was kind of thinking about how often we find ourselves putting labels to people and to things and um I kind of wanted to approach this session with um a book next to me and it's a dsm5 the diagnostic and statistical Manual of mental disorders and you know this very well Olivia we study this and it's basically a book that includes specific criteria to come up with a diagnosis much like a doctor would you know to to say if someone is diabetic or to really diagnose with any other um physical illness and so um I'm keeping this next to me throughout today's podcast in in case we need to reference it but what do you think have you noticed this come up for you yes so I mean I think that's how we sort of started talking about this I've seen this for years now in my practice because I work with a lot of couples and and it would make me you know smile because it was sort of used in humor sometimes you know and I've definitely noticed you know women would come in and say my partner's a narcissist and they would just go into this whole explanation and then I've heard men say you know she's bipolar she's all over the place so emotional up and down and so I thought I thought it was really interesting but I've noticed um that it's really become sort of a cultural phenomenon and it's really used outside of the therapy room and I'm sure you've seen it you know In Articles sort of how to deal with a narcissist or you know how to get away from a narcissist so it's really become much more of a thing and it's really it's fascinating and it's I I love the perspective that you know that you observed it in humor sometimes in experience I have observed it as a weapon as a weapon in fights you know like I I love you and I tolerate you until you become too much this way and then I'll bring out the big guns and the big guns often is that label um and what I've noticed is an incredible amount of anxiety and doubt and fear in relationships where people are saying am I this like they actually start to question it and what I've really noticed is that people feel unable to answer their questions so once somebody puts a label on you or once you fear that your partner has that label um sometimes people are very unsure as to how to figure this out I think that's also probably where gaslighting came from right people are being just thrown at these labels and are probably don't even know the clinical definition of them and start believing it right or question am I this am I not this everybody says I am or my partner says I am so to me it's also you know I was thinking about just sort of what does this say about um where we are as a society and just how high anxiety is generally for us to be using these labels in the way that we are we throw that in the narcissist the bipolar and what's the in between what there's no conversation anymore right it's it's sort of like where we are anxiety is so high and politics and labels have more and more um become important to people right to attach a label to yourself but also to others and how much of that is really about the other or about the self H that's so interesting so you're thinking that the label allows us to so so it has a function on a personal level and towards the other like if there is a certain behavior that I don't like in my partner and they are labeled a certain way then I'll either feel more comfortable or I'll either be able to understand better right or calmer right it's it's sort of it's there's a calming effect of being able to label something and sort of put it in a box and say this is what it is right and I think that that is for oneself but also for others right because how many clients do you have come in at least I do who who um think about the attachment Theory you know I am I am avoidant um I am what's the term um anxiously attached anxiously attached anxiously avoidant all of those things and they feel better when they can when they can do that for themsel but I think it's also goes to the other you know especially if it's a Behavior we don't like that is a threat to us then it's very easy to sort of throw okay you're a narcissist you're bad you're toxic I can't be around you right and it and it creates sort of that polarization where it's like there's just too much um there's too much difference where you can't there's no connection then left you can't even have a so after the label you are disconnected that's what you're saying to some degree to some agree what do you think yeah no I would agree and you know I what I think is interesting is what happens after the label how do you relate to this person in your life after you've labeled them such what changes because you know I can I can say oh you you're bipolar okay great that you know I I conceptualize that to mean a challenge or now I understand you better or I can temporarily calm myself and then what MH what is that going to mean for you and this person do you know what you're going to do afterwards does that mean you end the relationship does that mean that you stay in it but now you find different tools does that mean you need to accept or does that mean that then you ignore right so to me regardless of the label itself it's like if there's this Behavior or this pattern that doesn't work in your relationship what are you going to do about it and it's almost you know I think we were talking about how it's also like a power Dynamic you know let's say a woman I mean it can be it can be any but it's a power Dynamic for who's going to win who's going to have the power and then it's very easy to sort of label the other um with narcissism or bipolar or any other label but what it's really about is that power Dynamic that the fight to who has the power in the relationship and who do you think has the power the person who labels or the one who gets labeled it depends I mean sometimes both label each other right I I feel like now it's more and more becoming you know I mean I think it depends on the relationship and the person um somebody can feel I mean like like we said you can feel almost like you start to believe am I this or you question yourself and I think it does you know it depends on sort of how much self you have as a person too right to sort of fall into that or um or not yes that's a really great question because sometimes we would think of the powerful person as a one who does not have the mental health disorder or the challenge if you will the one who labeled like I'm coming from a position of I'm better and that's why I get to tell you that you have this but also on the flipside of that think about the power that the person who is you know demonstrating these behaviors whatever they may be has on this other person you and your behavior impacts me so much that I'm in a position of having to label you to understand you yeah so you know I think and where does the conversation go there is no conversation it ends one thing when I was thinking of humor and this is sometimes where I really have to smile about this when I hear clients Sometimes using it and sometimes more in a in a humorous way um to think about what is this also sort of a biological um is there something biological to it that where um men are maybe painted more as narcissists and women more bipolar right and my thought was what can women for example learn about men you know to maybe take some of that what they call narcissistic and use it for themsel for their benefit right and vice versa for men to use you know how how often do women say men are um you know not emotionally available or right they don't share their emotions they don't they're not emotional and yes you know what can they learn from somebody a woman who diagnos as I love that you bring this perspective because the whole time I've been thinking you know this is like the new version of Men Are from Mars and Venus are from and women are from Venus it's like men are narcissistic and women are bipolar right but you know what is really interesting well I love that you bring the biology and just the the gender differences narcissist is mostly prevalent in men like 50 to 75% of cases are for men interestingly enough that's not the case for bipolar bipolar is pretty much 5050 men and women right in terms of like actual numbers of diagnosis um so I thought that was really interesting but I do you know I do definitely think that we use this these labels to mean a couple of things I think in my opinion narcissist is used as a synonym for like being mean or somewhat of an pardon my French and I think bipolar is used as a synonym for being emotional definitely emotionally unstable and and narciss I would say selfish too you know self-absorbed entitled um those kinds of yeah those kinds of words I think are automatically Now sort of associated with oh you're narciss you're a narcissist or you must be bipolar you're you're all over the place you know um you have too many highs too many lows and so it's a little bit of the misuse of the term um and and you know how we associate it to traits that are more often seen in each of the genders because you know I I kind of wanted to bring back my little dsm5 here and go for example narcissistic personality disorder has a lot to do with grandiosity with needing admiration and with a lack of empathy again um we're not going to get into the details of the dsm5 but there's a specific number of criteria that needs to be present at the same time in order to meet this so you know there is a chance that your partner or someone in your life demonstrates some of these traits don't we all don't we all sometimes I mean well I can see I can see moments where I can be selfish or I can act into you know I mean I think we all do I think nobody's perfect here and the same being bipolar right I think yeah I think we can all um probably you know we're all a little bit of every re label probably yes and and you know and I was surprised I actually looked at the at the prevalence of um of these disorders if you will and um for narcissistic it's actually zero to 6.2% of the population which if you think about it is quite low in comparison to how often it comes up in my client population but that's why I think it's just it's it's become sort of a um you know word of the the street if you can say that it's not like it is just it's like slang it's it's just used as um it's almost cool to use it right I mean we can almost go there it's it's so this this makes me think about my role as a therapist you know is now then part of our work to help people get educated to understand that the label does not actually necessarily apply because where where I you know I think there's an element of of Education of saying like let's look into this let's look into responsibility as a clinici you know to to sort of dissect that and really make people think about what does that actually mean what what are you saying you know what what is the clinical definition but also what does it mean to you right and and to me furthermore once the dynamic is established well again what do you do about it you know what do you do that's with anything that can be the same with you know saying you know anxiety is another one that is so overused right I have anxiety and so this is an excuse for for how I act or this is why I do this because I have anxiety or I'm depressed and I think we can talk about many other labels in a similar way where it becomes sort of a in in a way a clutch right it's but it's um but it still doesn't answer the question what do you do with it right asides from taking medication going to therapy if that's what you choose to do right because a lot of people are medicated for these diagnosis but again at the end of the day you still have to do something with it right both if you're the one that has it or is labeled with it and if you are the one who isn't in the relationship both of these people would have certain responsibilities to then determine what happens after this label it's and and what you do in relation to it right because it's all about how do you deal with another person um that you're struggling with who who is either who you're labeling that or or who is labeling you as also I was thinking about how the the label has an element of like temporarily calming you down maybe if if it helps you understand but I was also thinking about the helplessness that comes with the label if this person really is does that mean I lose hope that things change is this going to be a long-term forever struggle but what's interesting is that I actually think that's an interesting question for everyone to ask themselves about the struggles in any relationship you know the these things that I don't like the things that impact me negatively are they something I'm willing to put up with or not regardless of whether they're named narcissist or bipolar is this something that that I have some power towards in other words like can I have boundaries can I have can I Implement consequences can I um step back from this or do I have to take it and so these questions I think sometimes the label kind of just cements how much of a struggle it will be and those are the questions I'm sure you um as well as I address in therapy right those are the things of like sort of yeah finding giving it color right and sort of finding to it I think is super important because I think the helplessness piece is huge and I think when when people feel helpless it's a it's a real struggle what is is it that allows us to feel free to diagnose people with mental illnesses or disorders and not physical you know if if you had a concern about a physical condition you'd go to the doctor but I just noticed that we culturally just feel comfortable kind of putting this on on other people without understanding that there's a whole process it's a good question I don't even know the answer myself I I don't know I think maybe the the mind is complex right there is we we don't understand a lot of it still and maybe maybe that's part of it and I also think about how personal someone's mental state how much of an impact that has on us maybe more than someone's physical state maybe I don't know maybe although I can think of physical disabilities being equally as challenging right for some um and for others but I think it is a really interesting distinction and how we treat it and sort of manage it differently in society I was thinking that not that it wouldn't impact but that it would maybe feel more personal like not that it wouldn't be a challenge but I wonder and again I don't know that this is fact but I wonder if there is something that feels more personal more of like a a personal attack or vulnerability that that you have to someone else's mental state if there's like a a behavioral aspect to it or you thinking there's shame around it no but more like your physical diagnosis can impact me and be a great challenge for me to manage and it can make me fearful or I have to put time into caring for you and all those things can be true but maybe it doesn't feel like a personal attack to Mees what I think is that when bipolar or narcissistic comes up people are feeling attacked it it's feeling like a personal well it's a threat it is on their on their personality on their character right and that I think that is a pretty big threat and people get very anxious and um when that happens and we sort of resort to sort of the automatic Behavior which is fight flight or freeze right and I think that really really is um is true to what happens in a lot of cases so we have to get to our questions and sort of a takeaway for today yes and um what are we going to leave our audience with Elsa do you have a few questions and then I'll have a few things to think about and sort of reflect on yes so the first one I was thinking about is an invitation really for each one of you to think what are you calling by and narcissist in other words if you close your eyes and you think of what these labels look like what do you immediately associate with it because I think that the possibility of changing the misuse of these labels comes from first understanding what we're attaching to them on a personal level so maybe you realize that you don't really know and hopefully that's an invitation for you to look more into it another question would be if you attach this label to a person of importance to you how does that help you and how may it not help you right and I think I think it may be both um but I think it is important to think about um how does this serve me and how may it not serve me to use it that's a great one because just the clarity that would come from that would be useful to have well and I I just want to add maybe to think about you know when you are struggling with another person and you are really having a hard time with them communicating with them relating to them connecting with them then I think it is always helpful to remember that on the other side the person that you are dealing with is equally having a hard time with you and I think that sometimes takes you out of yourself and puts you in the other person's shoes where you can relate because that is true it's a two-way street and as as much as you think somebody is you know um difficult toxic they are also having a difficult time relating to you I love that the reciprocity it to some degree relates to the next question which is how does the relational Dynamic change once these labels are used and really what options do you have or what changes are you willing to implement so you know in in other words bringing back the power to each person individually what are you willing to do about this and how do you kind of prepare yourself to manage whether it's considering ending the relationship or just you know maybe setting boundaries and consequences being clear about what you're tolerating the role you play Etc there's a million you know thoughts that can come from this but really what happens after the label is used I like that it's almost like reclaiming you know yourself reclaiming Independence and and um having responsibility right to yourself too and what do you then do with it um another question would be when we are in a relationship Dynamic and jump to diagnosis and label others is it really about the other or is it more about calming your own anxiety Elsa did you you hear that should I say that again I heard you okay you just St me thinking it was such a good question that I I went into silent mode to reflect on that but I think that is um I think that's an important one you know about how often we can sort of put people in a corner or in a sort of in a box and is it really about them or is it really about this is what calms me in the moment and this is what I need you know in order to to um function and deal with this yeah it's definitely a tool and it can either be helpful or not that's a great question do you think you would answer that from the perspective of like a percentage how much is it because I I I would feel that if you're using that label most people would say well it's definitely about what the other person is doing or not doing well I think it's if you start observing yourself better I think you can know notice it like when you when you label someone and you feel comfortable with that and you know you can sort of take it out and put it on somebody else that is it calms you it it brings down your anxiety at least in the moment yeah you know of sort of like okay you are this this is you are separate from me um you are the problem you are the problem that's I think the most important part of that and I need to remove myself um from you and this makes me feel calmer right and if you have somebody join you in that like let's think about a triangle you know or you you have somebody um agree with you that is even better that calms you down even more right that allation right of like yes it's not only me who thinks that that person is you know bipolar they're you know or they're a narcissist or they're whatever it is and I think yes I think it does sort of help us deal with our anxiety and if you can understand that that label is a function of your coping mechanism then what changes and how useful is it you know in the long term yeah in in dealing with your relationships is it does it make you simply cut off from people and you know that's how you move on is that does that become a pattern in your life or is there an alternative I love that a lot to think about ladies and gentlemen absolutely oh I wish we had this is something we could talk about probably for for much longer but we have to end today's episode it was a pleasure with you Elsa pleasure as always yes Jinx and um if you like what you're hearing stay tuned for for the next one yes and feel free to reach us on our Instagram or through our website to let us know if there are any topics that you want us to cover and talk about great okay bye

Channel: The Me In Us Podcast

Views: 11

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Id: 8kNGyTWpXbY

Length: 27min 27sec (1647 seconds)

Published: Wed May 08 2024