Movement Makes Us Human: Kelly McGonigal, PhD | Rich Roll Podcast

[Music] well it's interesting before we even get into like your amazing work first of all I'm very excited that you're here thank you for coming yeah we're dealing with potential fires in the area so that induces a little bit of stress which we could move yeah I'm good but so far I think we're in the clear and I think we'll be alright for the next couple hours but we're keeping a watch on it your relationship with your sister is super interesting and when I think of the work that you do and that and the work that your sister does it sort of feels like the Whiskey sisters wait tell me what that is oh you don't know so these three women who are all like super accomplished I went to school at Stanford with Janet and she's a she's a doctor at UCSF who specializes in telomeres like super accomplished and the CEO of YouTube and the CEO of 23andme are the other two and they have this amazing mother ester they went to Palo Alto High School and she's become like a guru of education because like how did you raise these three incredible daughters I get that question a lot yeah so how do you feel that or how do you think on that I always tell people so I think the way you end up with daughters like me and my sister the the best thing they did is they encouraged us with anything we had any interest or aptitude at in often very unusual ways so like my sister and I had very creative interests and instead of just doing it in like a small way they'd find a way to let us do it in a big way so I remember my sister got really interested in this TV show when we were in middle school and was just when prodigy was coming out like you could connect to the Internet and somehow my parents encouraged her to develop a newsletter for the entire country based on the show home front and so she was like producing a newsletter and finding other fans on prodigy and sending it out and we were always doing that sort of thing it was like oh you're interested in this well like don't just sit and watch the TV show like what's the craziest version that you could engage with this even as a kid so we were always doing these creative projects and I often feel like even when her interests were not super consistent with my parents values because they were both teachers like I was really interested in fashion design for a while and I think that made my mom like double roll her eyes but she still let me take classes at a Fashion Design Institute when I was in high school so I think like that's because you know we could have probably turned out to be fairly successful at whatever we did but we're both doing really weird things with our lives like non-traditional paths yeah it's almost like a homeschool technique where you look at what the person the young person is interested in and you just kind of leverage that or like put a lot of investment into trying to channel that interest into learning experiences are a little bit more broader actually that's like my mother's great gift as an educator so she was a classroom educator she taught everything from kindergarten to late middle school and her secret the reason parents loved her is she would find out what kids were obsessed with or what their talents were and find ways like really bring it out of them even students that other teachers thought were problem students and so I feel like we just we got 18 years of that yeah we need more of that do you do that with your students um I it's gotta be harder you're lecturing so it's different right my approach to teaching because I do a lot of teaching and I do mentoring a non-academic kind of mentoring I am always looking for the good in that person that you can tell they want it to be true of them but maybe it's not fully developed yet and it try to be a mirror for it so if I see that seed to make it the first thing I provide feedback on so that they know that that is part of who they are and it's in them and find ways to amplify that good and I feel like that's sort of the same yeah it's empowering and the person must feel like I'm okay they're being seen right and there's nothing more encouraging than having that sensation or that feeling yeah very cool all right well you've done all this amazing work in the fields of everything from compassion to willpower to stress which we can talk about all of that but it I feel like you're now synergizing everything that you've learned in those other fields and channeling into this this world of movement it seems like an obvious next step but how did how did like your interest in exercise and movement come about yeah it's actually the opposite of like the synthesis or the next step this is who I really am and I think all of the work that people know me for is sort of like it's a it's a part of who I am that I'm really interested in it's like a class that I taught the science of willpower or the science of stress but I have been in love with movement and exercise since I was a little girl and I've been teaching group fitness for 20 years so it's more like finally now that I've like solve some other problems for people got that willpower under control we're getting good at stress now I get to convince people to dance or run or swim or to really bring their whole body into the pursuit of happiness and connection how come it wasn't the first book that I don't think well so okay so my approach to publishing has always been I wait for someone to ask me what book I should write Nexo my first book was yoga for pain relief and it was because a publisher literally sent me a letter in the mail that said we've seen the work you're doing on yoga at various conferences and in research um do you want to write a book about it no it's like okay and then I was teaching this class called the science of willpower that was getting a lot of notoriety because it was so popular and then agents started saying you should write a book about this so I said okay and then I gave that TED talk you should write a book about that okay and so this was the first book where I said this is the book that I really like nobody was asked in the book that I probably wanted to write my whole life and finally now maybe having some sort of platform where people will be interested in finding out why yeah exercise is so critical to mental health yeah well there's an expectation with any book of this ilk that it's gonna be this step-by-step how-to and and you said or you've written that that was your expectation going into this and then it became another thing altogether so explain that a little bit yeah I thought what it happened for two reasons one is I thought I was going to write this sort of self-help book that was like you think you don't like to move you think you don't enjoy it I believe that there's a form of movement meant for everyone and no matter what body you're in or no matter what your past experience is there's probably a way that moving your body will give you access to something that you want whether it's social connection or hope a different sense of yourself and so I thought well I'll just write the book that helps people figure out what that is and when I wrote the proposal my editor really didn't like it she's not really a self-help kind of person so the one reason that it's not that is because she actually encouraged me like what's the what's the big idea here and for me the equivalent of what's the big idea is really what's the feeling here and so I feel like she gave me permission to think not just you know here's how to make your work out more meaningful and enjoyable but to really think about like what is the feeling that I have when I Marvel about how the body is so is almost designed to help us find happiness and meaning through movement what's that feeling that sense of wonder and on what does it tell us about being human and when I had permission to think in that way I feel like it opened me up to a different type of story as well from and I feel like that was the other piece of how it turned out not to be necessarily a step-by-step self-help book is when I started talking to people about movement one of things I realized is when you talk to people who have found meaning and movement that they become this version of themselves when they're telling you their story that is this amazing mixture of both incredible vulnerability and strength that somehow they both emerge and you can see like this full human in this tremendous glory and beauty and I felt like I need to do that justice when people were telling me their stories and like they were crying and I was crying I was like I don't think this is this is gonna be some sort of cheesy self-help book that I needed to write a book that somehow honored the versions of themselves they were sharing with me you know were talking about how does you know right growing change your life yeah yeah yeah no I get it I mean you're at listen you're speaking my language you don't have to tell me like I don't you know it's funny cuz when I read the book I'm thinking I'm not really the audience for this because I'm already sold like you're selling me about a package of goods that I bought a long time ago but I learned a lot about a lot of stuff that I didn't know about and I think what what you're uniquely qualified to do is take these ideas which can very quickly you know descend into the world of woowoo like if I was gonna write this book it would be crazy woowoo but you can take this version well I mean you could first of all thank you for putting me in the book it was a woowoo we quote you know I look at it as as you know movement is is part and parcel of what it means to be human it's also a journey that we can embark upon that will that will you know kind of catalyze this trajectory towards wholeness spiritually emotionally mentally of course physically so you sound like the one of the reverence that I talk to that's like almost exactly what she said about movement - yeah and it's a beautiful thing and I think it is important that that every human being discover their version of movement that is compatible with who they are but it's a very powerful kind of Archimedes lever for personal growth across the board but to get back to my point you're you're able to because of your pedigree you can inject it with the science the anthropology the psychology and all of these interesting anecdotes that come from you know a wide spectrum of different types of people from athletes themselves to the you know the researchers and you know diving into the research itself yes and and I think that makes it emotionally engaging for the reader and you're always changing gears but yeah it's about it's about self-discovery as much as anything else but it's also about it's about community and cooperation and all these other ideas how is you kind of bring into it I think that was the biggest surprise for me because if you look at the thread of my past work I I keep coming back to this idea that like nothing is a do-it-yourself project like every problem that I've tried to solve I'm always pointing people in the direction of make it social do it in community get support you know let social connection be your primary response to stress but somehow like even though I'd live and I have experienced so much of a sense of community and belonging through movement and teaching movement I somehow didn't think that was going to be the primary lens for this book you know sinking oh you know endorphin rush and how it changes the brain and I didn't understand how fully the joy of movement is the joy of connection and how fully integrated in our brains and our bodies the biology of movement is with the biology of social connection that was a huge surprise for me and I was like I was so happy that that emerged as a theme yeah how do you square that with the kind of experience that that like like that's certainly true but there's also that you talk about like I forget what you call it like green exercise or green where you're connecting with nature like a big part of just speaking from my own experience like a big part of this for me is time spent alone like out in nature and actually don't do very much training with other people like I find that stressful sometimes I have to be at this certain place with these people and it's organized and like I just want to go out the door and like it's my quiet time and it's my you know it's an active meditation I decompress I breathe the air I pay attention to my breath and things like that that that aren't really you know that that don't really line up with cooperation and kind of group participation aspect of it so in that chapter one of the things I wrote about that really intrigued me is this idea that to become great as a species human beings needed to learn these social skills cooperation and thinking about other people and we have this sort of default state that allows us to constantly be thinking about ourselves in relationship with other people and that we also needed to develop these skills that allow us to be in nature and to connect with nature and to experience self transcendence in nature that is so different internally from that version of us as humans that are always thinking about other people on how do we get along and belong and one of the things that I realized in talking to people who really find moving in nature healing therapeutic inspiring is that the sort of the the relief from suffering that they need is more that aspect of being human that is so much like what many people experience when they meditate or they go on solo treks and journeys there's a version of being by yourself that is also at the same time connected to something bigger than yourself but you're free from those social roles and and all of that angst or that just the the pressure the busyness that comes from being a social creature and I was so fascinated by that and I talked to so many people who have that experience and it's in contrast to me I think like my my essential nature is to be alone and withdraw and the the thing that I need is something to pull me out yeah of that like great comfort that I have just being in here and by myself and almost like I could be on retreat all the time and so the thing that I need that's therapeutic is no you need to be in a room with other people and you need to connect and you need to like really touch that aspect of your human nature yeah and so I think that you know people are probably with movement it's always about finding the thing that's that's your medicine and you know movement helps us access so many different parts of our human nature that are useful or that are meaningful and the nature is one of those yeah I mean I can relate to that you're a self-avowed introvert I certainly consider myself the same and so and and you know building on that I'm also you know a long time in recovery and there's this very alcoholic tendency to want to isolate you know and I can and I can mask that tendency with endurance sports you know when I know like I probably should I am better and happier and more fulfilled when I'm in groups of people but I have to really compel myself to do that but I can say well you know I trail run by myself or whatever but I do know that when I do participate in those group endeavors that it is like incredibly fulfilling but I really have to marshal a lot of energy to do that and thinking of you know your career your with students all the time you're teaching all the time and you're teaching these group these group classes I would imagine that you would also you know the counterpoint to that would be that you would need some solace that involve some kind of movement yeah and I do um I do move on my own I mean there was a lot of things that I do that are you know it's sort of my own personal practice teaching academic classes is very different energetically for me than teaching movement classes I am I get more energy from teaching movement classes whereas I find giving talks or teaching academic classes training definitely draining I often feel like I've been run over by a bus there's a sense of the energy flow is much more from me outward and and really just working hard to try to create an experience of value for others when I'm teaching like a dance class I don't know the music gives me so much energy and to see other people moving in to be it feels more like I'm co-creating an experience so I didn't bring that into the classroom somehow sometimes but even I mean in so many different forms of teaching I do you know whether I'm leading like a meditation retreat or giving a lecture there's no other form of teaching and I think it's again it's just part of how I'm wired that there's something about moving to music and using my body and not talking right talking is a totally different form of being with a group than mirroring and and sort of leading through the body that I find that that the teaching the movement is is part of that right so when this goes up it will be a brand spankin new year so the idea of new year's resolutions and kind of creating a trajectory for for you know new year new you is on everybody's minds and I have a fan I know some people are very cynical yeah I'm like why not it's the beginning of a new year well let's like unpack that a little bit because I think it also brings in the work that you've done in these other areas right like people are thinking about willpower do I have the willpower to you know set this goal and actually follow through this time even though I you know the past five years I keep failing and you know perhaps somebody's you know resolution is to reduce the stress in their lives like how do we how do we think about new year's resolutions in a healthy way and create a strategy that's actually effective rather than self-defeating you know two or three weeks in when we abandon hope so I'm a big fan of doing some serious reflection like not just picking a behavior like drink more water because you saw it somewhere as like a healthy habit and I often will encourage people to ask themselves some set of questions like if you were to project yourself to next New Year's Day a year from now and you were going to look back and be really grateful that you made one change what can you imagine you could do in the next year that that future you is gonna be so grateful like it's going to have improved your vitality your health your relationships moved you forward in some way that is consistent with the vision you have for your life maybe that question or you know is there a kind of suffering in your life right now that you're just ready to be free from and what might that look like or is there for movement I would particularly ask people is there a type of joy that you are seeking in your life right now forget if you even think it's connected to movement but something like social connection or hope or mastery progress adventure playfulness creativity because there's some kind of joy that you're missing that you just know if you had more of it in your life that would be a greater change to ask that sort of question and then when you have that kind of vision of what you want then to get concrete and say can I think of some choice or behavior that feels like it's really consistent with that even if I'm not entirely sure you know what it's gonna look like a year from now but I think that the New Year's resolve I often will choose a word for myself that's like how I want to approach the year or what I want more of in that year but if you set that kind of framework then it allows you to both experiment with behaviors like is this getting me closer to that type of joy or is this actually reducing my suffering or just increasing the suffering and to change your approach as you go through the year while you keep Mike yeah I mean essentially what you're saying is is getting clarity on what your y is right you talk about like the big y like what is the why behind this rather than the behavior that you're trying to modify like what's behind that is how do you know what the behavior is if you don't know what your want is and in the willpower instinct I talk about it is want power but this is actually a strength many people need to develop the ability to know what matters most to you the roles the relationships the values yeah values what are your values and if you're clear on that it gets so much easier to figure out what behaviors to try to change and to pay attention to the actual consequences of whatever this thing is you're trying to control I feel like way too often people think about self-control as like the key thing that they target on like what do I feel out of control with that I'm going to force myself to control but that's not always the thing that's gonna have the biggest impact on your well-being you know you may have a bad habit in one area that's really not destroying your life in any meaningful way but it's something that you are you're always judgmental about and I feel like people often go in that direction they're like what can I control now as opposed to what I really care about yeah and that's that's not a sustainable energy source right ultimately you can sustain the process of it as it you can sustain the process of like self blame and hate and value change and you'll start having an unhealthy amount of chronic stress I would imagine yeah yeah but but kind of flipping that to look through a different prism like the aspirational prism of like the person you want to become so if you take like weight loss for example big one obviously rather than thinking like I got to lose weight the Y would be like I want to feel good in my body or I want to be healthy or I want to look in the mirror and feel good about my appearance or whatever that whatever what is the value that's attached to that and then I'm gathering what you're what you're really saying is then identifying the behaviors that you can do like the Wills that you can implement that lead you in that direction as opposed to focusing on the we'll not like the things that you're gonna avoid and also the things you can't control like you mean wait we think it's something that you can choose but you can't actually choose to wake up you know in a month and weigh less or weigh more it's a lot easier to choose things that will reliably give you more energy improve your health and weight may or may not be a consequence of that I think a lot of it is defining the the thing that actually you're pretty clear you can choose and get that consequence whether it's having more energy being healthier feeling better about yourself that you can actually work directly with that rather than setting these goals you know you if it were something with money for example rather than say I want to have this amount of money in the bank maybe what you want is a feeling of financial freedom more security and that there are choices you can make every day that move you in that direction even if you can't guarantee at the end of the year I'm gonna have this amount of money in my bank account or how to reduce my debt this much so it's it's not only choosing things that you can say yes to but that things that you're not setting yourself up to have like a success that you can check off or not that almost it pulls our attention away from the daily benefits we get when we're actually engaging in behaviors that are good for us I think the problem with a lot of this is that those tiny imperceptible actions that you take every day that move you in that direction just aren't sexy you know you're not getting the likes on Instagram for them they don't seem necessarily to be moving you forward in a tangible you know from an external point of view I think they're super important and they create momentum and there's an internal I think shift that occurs with them but I think a lot of people struggle with that because they're so focused on the end goal that they don't learn how to fall in love with the process or the journey of getting there I think this is where mindfulness comes in because again if you've chosen something that really has the power to transform your well-being in some way you will notice it as it's happening if you're paying attention and that becomes a much more motivating reward than the initial reward that's a lot easier to track like I did this today I didn't do this today or you know some change some number that you're tracking but you do have to learn to pay attention it's almost a process of self trust that you you know you say at the end of the day how do I feel about what I did maybe there's a sense of pride a sense of celebration for whatever steps you took but pretty quickly over time you should notice the direct benefits of what you're doing and again this can be like a reality check it's almost like an integrity check it is much easier to choose something where you can define it and check it off and keep track and like get on some you know streak of good behavior but if that's not the right behavior for you and what you need at this time in your life all you're doing is is sort of giving yourself something else to be distracted by these sort of like the short-term wins and feel good so you know mindfulness is a big part of that because I feel like a lot of my behaviors change for the better when I got very serious about yoga practice because it became so much easier to notice the effects of my choices in everyday life I started to find it really hard to do things that were inconsistent with my values like to be dishonest or to eat food that made me feel hungover afterward huh I just couldn't do it because it was so clear I just I could just see the consequence as it was unfolding and I I think a lot of that has to do with the quality of attention you train in practices like yoga or meditation yeah I think that level of self-awareness is super important and I feel like people a common mistake that a lot of people make is they want to skip that part and they want to go right to the goal and I see a lot of people who I'm not convinced are setting the right goal for themselves they're doing because they feel like that's what they should be doing but there isn't enough introspection into whether that really aligns with the the values you know that they're that they aspire to you know embody in their lives and short of mindfulness practices or yoga or movement as you talked about in the book you know these are all vehicles for unlocking that you know or deepening that level of self connection I think you're just you're a ping-pong ball you're reacting to your environment or to social expectations of you know what you think you are supposed to be yeah yeah so what are what are some of the common pitfalls that derail people when it comes to you know these New Year's resolutions that you're such a fan of yeah well one thing is choosing something that is something you the idea that you have to finish resolutions you made in the past because they're unresolved and so often all you know I used to do a lot of press around willpower at New Year's and almost every time people I'd be interviewing I say what's your new year's resolution and they'd say something that was what they had failed at the last few years and they were gonna try again and I'd ask okay well what benefit is this gonna bring to your life and they'd be like I don't know and then I'd be like well what would really like what would bring you more joy in your life and I still remember this one interview where she's like oh I wish I had time to play the piano again it's like she lit up and it was a whole different person like why is that not your New Year's resolution so that that first pitfall which we've talked about um another pitfall is probably the relationship that you have with yourself as you're changing you know we need to if again if it's a really good change and it's not something that's easy like as soon as you decide you're going to do it you do it we know that the trajectory is going to include setbacks and obstacles and mistakes and I think people have the sense that once you've made the vow it should be done and there's never going to be the day where you slide back and there's never going to be the day where you're the worst version of yourself and you're so exhausted you do the opposite of everything you value wouldn't do and so we need some kind of vision about what the process of change looks like and to understand that any really meaningful change is going to include that day where you feel like giving art yeah be people people don't recognize the fact that every success comes with a lot of failures and I think we set ourselves up such that if we meet that obstacle and fall short that we're not good enough or you know that we abandon hope rather than just recognizing that's part of the process one of the things I often encourage people to do who feel like they don't know what to do when they hit that kind of setback is to imagine okay imagine this is the end of the story and we actually the outcome that you have accomplished this goal or made this change some point in the future and you're telling the story of how it happened I want you to look back at today and what was the turning point how was this a turning point what was the next thing you did that moved you in that story toward change then just do that right so basically forecasting your idealized self yeah and understanding that that what you are stuck in the middle of now is a part of that journey uh-huh that it doesn't it doesn't reveal that you are unable to continue on this path yeah in my experience momentum police such a key role in all of this I mean we've all had that experience where we're doing really well at something and then some intervening unexpected life event occurs that throws us off our schedule and then it becomes so difficult to kind of get back on the horse whether it's going to the gym or whatever it is I'm wondering if there's any science behind the power of momentum and how that you know kind of operates on our psyche yeah I actually can work in both ways so some people are derailed by momentum because they feel so good about their progress they're like hey I can like take a break right so some people fall into that trap or if you're a self-sabotage er yeah now's a good time to blow everything up I think you know one reason why I often talk about the importance of celebrating successes or appreciating effort because it changes in part the way you feel about yourself as someone who is engaged in this difficult task so I think momentum works because then you can tell a story about yourself that is really empowering and gives you the positive energy to keep going it's like fuel and I think that that as soon as we experienced a setback often one of the reasons it's so dear ailing is we start to tell a story about ourselves rather than a story about today like we don't have that ability to be compassionate and say okay you just went through a health crisis or you just had to deal with this other thing in your life of course your energy went there and there was less energy available for this other project you've been working on instead we start to tell story about ourselves or our lives that feels fixed this is never gonna happen or I'm not capable of this it's sort of like when values compete for your attention and resources right like it's not just that we have one value that we're aspiring to embody there's multiple values right and sometimes they come into conflict and that's okay it can change your priorities moment to moment and particularly when you do it with the sense of agency and autonomy like you know what I said I was going to be dedicated this year to improving my health and then I had to step into this caregiver role and right now I'm fulfilling that role and it's meaningful and it's stressful it's difficult and I've slid back a little bit on this other thing like I think we should feel free to fully endorse that kind of shift and and really honor any any connection between what we're doing and what we care about yeah I tend to beat myself up yeah you're not alone well a lot of people's new year's resolutions pivot around movement right and that's what you're writing about in this new book so let's talk about movement I'm super interested in hearing your thoughts that you explore in this book about what's happening with us psychologically and biochemically when we move our bodies well let's start with the biochemical if some of this is so fascinating can I explain the whole molecule thing yeah I was trust me I wrote that down like these whole these these hormones are recent the Myo kinds super interesting um I know when I found so I came across this paper I think it was maybe 2016 paper where the scientist talked about this research and they just sort of throw out the term hope molecules and I remember circling it I think I like said to my husband oh my gosh you're not gonna believe this term it encapsulates so much about why movement is amazing and I feel like nobody else is using this term it's just in this one paper I'm gonna ensure the scientist I've used it again but let me explain what it is so this is the idea that our muscles are like an endocrine organ and that when you contract your muscles in any type of movement they are secreting chemicals into your bloodstream that are really good for every system of your body I mean they're great for your heart health and your immune function and some of them can kill cancer cells you know all the stuff we know exercise is good for without a big part of these these proteins are chemicals that are being released by your muscles which are called my oak ions they have profound effects on the brain so you go for a walk or a run or you lift weights and your muscles contract and they secrete these proteins into your bloodstream they travel to your brain they cross the blood-brain barrier and in your brain they can act as an anti depressant like Ireson can they can make your brain more resilient to stress they increase motivation they help you learn from experience and the only way you get these chemicals is by using your muscles it's like this is part of how we become our best selves is we have to use our muscles and then the scientists call them hope molecules because in this one study they found that exercise could protect rodents from experiencing depression and post-traumatic stress disorder if you severely traumatized them so this idea that that these molecules are giving you hope even in vertical times so it's not innately human that's right it's not innately humans it is and other mammals it's in well it's so I don't know how many species this has been studied in it's like in in this field you tend to go from mice and rats to humans I think not a lot in the middle but it should be pointed out that rodents are very social species and that's one of the reasons why they're they can be really great models for human behavior because they look a lot like us and some of the very basic social and psychological ways so extrapolating on that idea like what do you like what do you make of that like what does that mean well first of all a very practical level it means when I go for a walk or I exercise I will literally say to myself you were giving yourself an intravenous dose of hope like I think this is how we should frame movement that that it's something you can choose to do to really powerfully influenced your mental health and your resilience and every time you move you're doing that I think to know that to like look at your own muscles and be able to say thank you legs you're tired now that was hard work but like legs your you are a pharmacy that of antidepressants and resilience and hope then sort of thinking like in a more philosophical way again one of the things that I feel like the anthropology and the science is pointing to is that movement is how your brain knows you are alive and engaged in life and when you move on a regular basis your brain basically says I guess we have to be the best version of ourselves because we're in this thing called life and so you know you mentioned some other things too like when you exercise you see increased levels of neurotransmitters that tend to increase our willingness to cooperate and the pleasure we get from connecting with others that give us hope and courage I mean even that lactic acid that that metabolic byproduct of exercise that lactic acid seems to have an anti-anxiety and antidepressant effect right this is a crazy stuff it's not just an endorphin rush it's like at every level of our biology when we move our brain is like I guess we have to do this thing called life and so you know for people like me who've struggled with anxiety or depression this idea that you can convince your brain to want to fully engage with life in a brave way or in a hopeful way through movement is so phenomenal how does that measure up against what we think about anecdotally as the runner's high yeah just kind of how you open the book I opened it was funny because I'm not a runner but my husband is a runner and my sisters he's a serious runner you did a triathlon though didn't you me yeah you said you were in the book you said you were think you and your husband were thinking about doing a trial my husband oh I was thinking about saying yes go for it the only thing I've ever participated in was a Dance Marathon okay um yeah so I'm not a runner and so part of my interest in exploring the science was um like to really understand why people I love love this thing that's not my movement and so I started to dig into that like what is the runner's high and I came across this research that in part the runner's high is fueled by endocannabinoids not only endorphins and then endocannabinoids as a neurotransmitter system is really about reducing anxiety and making us sort of more bold and more courageous as well as more social and that we we get more of that warm glow from any kind of social interaction and the anthropologists who think about the runner's high there's this idea that the reason we have the runner's high is so that you know you know back hundreds of thousands of years ago that we could sustain hunting and gathering but that also hunting and gathering was part of being a social species and being a tribe and so that this sort of runner's high not only allowed early humans to go out and do the hard work of gathering food but maybe was even helping them be the version of themselves that wouldn't be like I caught this big animal it's mine good luck to the rest of you I hope you don't starve that the runner's high was actually making it easier to be a cooperative species that's super interest it is and then you know one thing I didn't put in the book cuz I am Not sure the research is fully there but a lot of people I talk to think oxytocin is also part of this and there's the research just is not as robust right now but oxytocin you know as a neuro hormone that helps us bond with others and also that makes us remember events more positively than maybe they were when they actually transpired some some researchers think this is why people will run ultra marathons more than once yeah isn't that there's so much oxytocin release that somehow at a distance it seems better than maybe it actually was at the worst moment so that that great his coloring your memory but it was just like oxytocin and orphans endocannabinoids that the biochemistry of a runner's high is priming us to not only feel good while you're moving which is I think how we often think about it like it's a gimmick to trick you into exercising but that what it might actually be is your your brain being like okay now we have to be this version of ourselves who can persist and can cooperate with others and that changes who we are after a workout we can be a different version of ourselves well we have so we have this soup of all these you know feel-good chemical swirling around in our bodies as a result of this kind of movement which brings up something that I have to field all the time which which is this idea that because I'm a recovering alcoholic that I'm just I've channeled all my addictive tendencies into endurance exercise and this is just an extension of you know rich role the addict and I'm pursuing this runner's high in a very unhealthy way and that's why you see so many people in recovery in the endurance and ultra endurance communities that they're just basically perpetuating this unhealthy behavior pattern yeah so I mean you can tell from my book that's not my take on it but I know yes well I think you would rot you addressed it really beautifully you know I have my friend Mishka who's been on the podcast a bunch of times he he just dismisses it with like this quippy thing that he says which is putting you know taking the dirt the drink of the drug was always the easy choice and the way out putting on the running shoes is hard you know it's like it's a vehicle for self-improvement it's it's it's a difficult thing that you grapple with that that leads to greater self-efficacy and all these you know fantastic things so he you know it and I see it similarly like I first of all I acknowledge that I'm like yeah there probably is a part of me that that is doing this for that reason like I think it would be profound to rated for me to say no that's not the case at all but is it making my life better or is it making it worse you know and it's clearly making my life better it can be out of balance I've seen that with a lot of people who get obsessed with their training and then they're you know their marriage is dissolved and you know all kinds of terrible things happen so I have to be aware of that and balance it appropriately but when I do do that everything in my life has actually improved as a result yeah I think that's basically my take on it too and I was really fascinated by the research on the neuroscience of addiction and exercise and how they're really similar in some ways but really different in ways that matter and that like exercise almost by hijack some of the mechanisms of addiction make you really want it and like it and crave it but that it's changing your brain in the exact opposite ways as most substances of abuse that people get addicted to so that you're more open to other pleasures that you're better able to connect with other people and I think that like that's one of the most important distinctions that that most people who have dealt with some other type of addiction will we'll talk about when they talk about the difference that they might feel addicted to movement and sometimes people a lot of people feel dependent on it I'm totally dependent on it but you know what diabetics are dependent on insulin I'm very happy to be dependent on dependent to and sleeping exactly but that most people will will point out that when you become dependent on movement it often enhances your ability to also pursue other goals and to be a version of yourself in relationships that you actually are proud to be that version of yourself and that's that's pretty different from other addictions yeah part of your exploration is trying to determine the genetic markers for people that are you know I know that's dependent and one of the things you do is you you do the 23andme thing and you get all this data back and you're trying to figure out like where do I where where where can I identify my proclivity for being an exercise freak yeah so I just say a couple things about this first of all I think it's a really bad idea to do it yourself why not three and me guy going in the raw data so my husband who's a scientist was helping me try to figure out what you know all these different ways to work with the raw data so I don't necessarily recommend this and the the science itself is super fledgling so it could all be bunk basically but I was interested in doing this because um my twin sister and I are both totally hooked on movement we both feel dependent on it and this emerged very early in life like I mean I got my first taste of aerobics when I was seven or eight and I was like hooked instantly I can even remember not wanting to go to a friend's birthday party in fifth grade because I was gonna miss the exercise hour that was on like PBS that I wanted to do and be like oh they're trying to way which one was more important I guess maybe the sign of addiction but so I was hooked immediately and to see how important is for both me and my sister I thought like this must be genetic because we're identical twins and there are certain things I mean I very much believe are genetically determined because we are so similar in so many ways and I thought this must be one of them and when I actually looked at some of the the markers genetic markers that have been linked to exercise behavior and how much you enjoy exercise we didn't necessarily have all of those but there are some some bits of DNA that have been linked to really benefiting psychologically from movement that is you are at both increased risk of things like depression or anxiety disorders or suicidal thinking but if you exercise those risks are dramatically reduced or in other studies you respond better to a exercise intervention like you have better psychological outcomes than people who don't have those genetic markers and when I looked at those studies my sister and I had every single one of them Wow and I just feel like you know cuz when we were growing up nobody was in therapy I don't I mean this was you know decades ago there was nobody helping me manage my mind when I was a kid yeah and the idea that both of us found this thing that helped us deal with genetic susceptibilities to anxiety and depression I'm very grateful it's interesting how the human animal can root out that thing that will be curative you know whether it's a you know it's like they say everybody finds the drug that they need to quell whatever it is that they're trying to deal with somehow that happens and exercise certainly you know could be considered you know a healthier version of that I have no doubt but if I hadn't found exercise I would have doing something less fun right exactly and I've done both but I probably have those same genetic markers because I wake up every day and left to my own devices like going out of moving my body is what I choose to do I look forward to it I can't wait to do it the only thing that gets in the way is when I have other obligations I have another value that competes with that value but I think there's a lot of people out there who who can read the book or listen to what you're saying and they you know they can intellectually grasp that all the finer points of why this is a good idea but they lack that impetus like they look at it as burdensome or or intimidating or something that they they just don't connect with it so a couple things about this first of all I should say in in my experience talking to people there are a lot of late to life movers who just needed to find the right form of movement and I don't think we get exposed to enough diversity of movement like women or personnel who got in a boat at a row and had their whole life thought they had the wrong body type that they were in athletes but suddenly they got in a boat with other women and were rowing and they were like yes my body was born for this that you know there's so many forms of movement that changed the way you feel about yourself because they they just create a different narrative about who you are I talked to so many women who discovered things like power lifting or CrossFit or axe throwing we're suddenly the day we're doing these amazing things with their bodies and they felt powerful and it was a side of themselves they'd never experienced before and if you were to only like listen till the way that the media usually talks about exercise it's all about burning calories right it's all about what you look like and you can get pulled into places where instead of being told like this is what it feels like to stand in your own strength you're told now you're burning more calories so you won't look as hideous as you looked walking in today I mean like that is a very different experience and too often people's movement experiences have been defined by this obsession with burning calories and improving your appearance and making yourself more acceptable to either yourself or the judgment of society and it gets very confusing very quickly and so I'm always encouraging people like what's the form of movement if someone were to send you a YouTube video what's the video you would watch and be like wow that's amazing and what's the version of that that would fit into your life who's doing that in a way that's appropriate for the body you have right now or the you know who you want to become that it's not about like getting a tracker that's going to tell you if you've done enough yet right there's so much that gets in the way of finding the movement that will make you happy that can make it feel like a chore like a punishment we have such a limited perspective on what those options are we just think about the gym and the Stairmaster machine and the little LED readout that tells you calories and time and while you're watching you know the news and it's just it's okay to distract yourself while you're exercising if that works for you but there are a lot of forms of movement where the more attention you pay to what you're doing actually the more pleasurable it is but often I think the advice we get is just get on the treadmill and watch new Netflix so that you're not really there and you can get through it but I bet there's some form of movement where if you were really there you would have an amazing experience a sense of yourself or a connection with others what is the science and research tell us about intensity like do we have to suffer and you know just kill ourselves or okay well you know like weird you know what do we have to do to avail ourselves of these benefits like how you know how much how often how intense so there are two ways to think about this one is minimum dose so that we're not scaring people off and then also acknowledging that many of the benefits are probably enhanced by greater intensity so if you're looking to simply feel better to have a mental health benefit to have a mood boost and energy boosts or even physical health benefits there is almost no minimum of what you need to do and how non intensity to be you know there's something in the literature called the feel better effect which is if you are sedentary you have not moved in a while and you do a couple of minutes of any type of movement you will feel better you'll have more energy you'll be more hopeful if that's all you ever did and you did it a couple times a day that would be so much better than doing nothing you know we talked about Myo kinds as long as you're contracting your muscles you are producing a healthier set of my own kinds and if remove so for if anyone is thinking the barrier is I don't want to do something insanely intense so I'm gonna do nothing instead we should take that off the table at the same time many of the joys of movement are enhanced by intensity so for example there's something called collective joy which is this feeling of transcendence and connection to others a kind of euphoria that we feel when we move in synchrony with other people particularly we're moving to music and the research shows that the higher your heart rate gets when you're doing that the more intense the euphoria and the stronger the social bonds research also suggests that more intense movement more endurance is going to produce extremely high levels of Myo kinds that are probably very protective for your mental health and your brain when it comes to your sense of self you know if you do something you never thought you could do and in order to get there you had to have really tough workouts and you had to like try to lift something heavy and fail 20 times before you succeeded that's a certain type of intensity how you're gonna feel the day that you finally do it it's probably be more powerful than if you set a very small goal for yourself that you could succeed at the first time you try so there's so many different ways that intensity I think amplifies the joys of mastery and connection and mental health but people shouldn't think of that as like you said suffering and killing yourself it's it's more like I always tell people what's the most intense form of movement you can do and still take joy meaning in it and again if it's the right form of movement for you probably part of the workout you'll be like oh my gosh this is so uncomfortable why did I say I wanted to do this and then two minutes later you're gonna be like I feel amazing right I mean joy can take different forms I mean it's like you know if you want to change your life like sign up for an ultramarathon you know you will meet yourself in a way you never have before and there will be a tremendous amount of suffering but there is a joyous aspect to that because it's a journey of self-discovery that you really can't replicate in any other way in your life and we're so afraid of that level of discomfort but I think our own thing I mean it's not you have like I was so delighted that you I mean you basically have like an entire chapter on the world of ultra under I was so that chapter took the longest for me to write I was revising that like a year after the manuscript was submitted because it's so different from my like my own core forms of movement or yoga and dance and it it's just I knew it was very different than the ultra world and I had to keep talking to people and watching videos of events and reading memoirs to feel like I could actually understand it in a way that was deeper than my initial impressions of it and I learned so much about that that's sport in that world and I was so I found it very moving to to try to pay attention to that world in a way that really goes against like many people who aren't ultra athletes probably had the same initial response I had like oh my god why do you need to practice suffering I'm already suffering enough like I don't I don't really need to do it in in that form but then I will yes no go ahead so I want to interrupt you but I was the the thing that made the biggest shift for me was when I started watching videos and I saw how I saw on people's faces sort of who they were when they were struggling and it was so beautiful to watch people confront their desire to finish with their bodies reluctance and it was it was beautiful and then to watch how so often one of the ways they did it was people showed up to help them and it was when I first started talking to ultra athletes people were not talking about interdependence it was like later conversations that was the thing that I found so beautiful is because from the outside it looks like something that people are doing only to prove that they're tough and I can do it by myself and of course you are doing it yourself but most people aren't doing it by themselves and that was so beautiful when I realized okay this is this is like the most beautiful display of human inner strength and interdependence at the same time yeah I mean that that that's a very astute observation because it is a very individualistic pursuit on paper it's also this beautiful soul journey you know there's a there's a there's a soulful aspect to the ultra-endurance community that's that's really beautiful and I think unique because people they're not getting into it because there's prize money and they're gonna become a professional and make money like there there's something that is calling them towards this because there's something inside themselves that needs reconciliation or there's some answer that they're trying to find for themselves and in that way it's almost like in ascetic spiritual practice right like flogging yourself or something you're like Oh marathon monks yeah exactly exactly what you talked about in the book as well where we're you know by virtue of tackling this challenge and seeing it through you will have some form of transcendent experience and will be changed as a result but as you point out it is a very collective experience and there is a level of cooperation that you don't see in other you know quote-unquote individual team individual sports the athletes you know all want to do their best and there is a competitive aspect to it of course but everybody's helping each other and you know a lot of people don't realize that most of these races you have to bring your own crew and these you're very dependent and reliant upon these people in order to finish and the crews will also help other athletes when they're in need and the athletes will help each other when they're in need like when I did all traumatic broke my pedal I got a brand new pedal from a crew member of a competing at like this goes on all the time you know and that I think just makes it this beautiful kind of collective celebration where a group of people have gotten together and created this social contract that they're gonna do this really hard thing together and they're gonna be mutually supportive in the doing of it yeah and so you know I believe that that's one of the things that real stress can bring out in us as humans that was one of the core ideas and my his work and so that was when I saw that that was playing out in the ultra world that I was you know that was wonderful to see but I also believe like that's part of who we are and it brings it out of us because that's part of our human nature yeah and it's that perfect kind of stressful situation where people really have resources and when you're in a very stressful situation and you know you there's something you can do that's sort of what humans do we rise up and me we live one yeah and there's nothing more elevating than real I realizing that you have more potential and capacity than you originally realize that's incredibly empowering and on the an idea of your previous work and stress the core idea is basically please correct me if I'm wrong that that you know look stress is bad but it's our relationship with stress that's most critical and how it impacts us and when we think about stress in a healthier way it doesn't have the deleterious impact that it would have otherwise and you know movement sports ultra-endurance whatever we're inviting a certain level of stress into our lives to challenge ourselves and as a result of grappling with that we create you know what Susan David would call emotional resilience right so I you know like how does your thoughts on stress and your work in that field kind of intersect with her ideas on similar terrain yeah I think one of the things that she points out too is the importance of welcoming and embracing often the emotions that we think we don't want and stress is just part of that of those you know I really think about the way that I think about stress is it's what arises in your mind in your body when something that you care about is at stake and it also it can push every button in our human nature so stress can bring out the worst in US and it can bring out the best in us and that's true for everybody because we have all these different competing instincts and so you know what I'm encouraging people to do is think how do I build a stress response repertoire that's really consistent with my values and the stress in my life so that the instincts that get triggered by stress are to become aggressive and hostile if that's not appropriate or you know my default might be become paralyzed and withdrawal very human instincts but what happens when we acknowledge that stress can also activate the instinct to ask for help can activate the instinct to make meaning out of things that feel out of our control or meaningless that it can activate the instinct to learn and grow to rise to the challenge and it's about coming to terms with a reality so that you can make a more conscious choice about how you engage with that reality there's a real sense of I think like practicality and being strategic and too often I think when we talk about stress we're looking for a way to change our inner experience because we're afraid of the inner experience or we have been told that the inner experience is always toxic so if you're having a stressful state it must be killing your brain cells and destroying your immune system and giving you a heart attack and so we look for the thing that will change the inner experience the fastest rather than think well maybe I'm feeling stressed because I care and maybe it would be good for my happiness and my health to engage with what I care about rather than look for the quickest way to shut off this signal mm-hmm have any of your thoughts on stress or willpower changed as a result of this deep dive into movement or they just confirm or affirm what you've always been talking about some of my my thinking has changed over the years I'm trying to think if if writing this book led to any changes I think the thing that I mean so the the fundamental paradox that all my work tries to grapple with is that human beings have nature for good and for bad and you know for helping and destruction I think that's fundamentally true and the science is always pointing in that direction and so my work has always been okay so you need to get to know the destructive impulses in order to strengthen the positive impulses and I feel like this was the first book I wrote where by far what I was being confronted with was the good in human nature and all my past work I feel like there was at least sort of an even balance the destructive nature and the the you know pro-social and positive nature and that to me it gave me a lot of hope I feel like I needed it at that time I just I feel like everywhere I looked I was seeing the good in human nature and that movement somehow allows us to access that I don't know that it changed my thinking but it changed my perspective yeah I felt like this this book and the science pushes me to be more optimistic about human nature than my that's a tendency yeah yeah how does competition play into this because we you know if we talk about movement a subset of movement is sports sports being inherently competitive there has to be healthy aspects yeah to this but also unhealthy aspects yes and I think so competition is a major human Drive and there's a lot of psychological benefits to it so when people tell me that they love competition like my sister is more like this and these like one of our fundamental differences she loves to compete she loves to improve she loves mastery and I just sort of I don't know that doesn't motivate me like at all so I think the the really healthy positive size of competition one is if you're competing as a team or with a group and the tremendous bonds and what you learn from cooperating in order to compete that that that seems like that has tremendous benefits and that even if you look at like children who or teenagers who are engaged in different types of sports uh-huh it looks like there are more psychological benefits to being involved in team sports than individual competitive sports because there can often be so much pressure on the individual with you know to be the best without some of those other social forces that come into play when you're working with others mm-hmm and I think the other thing that's so helpful and healthy about competition is when it's really more about mastery that that you have a sense of setting goals and moving or them and that they are personally meaningful and you sent yourself as somebody who can set goals that are difficult and work toward them and meet them I thought a whole chapter about overcoming obstacles and the very definition of hope is to have a goal that's meaningful to believe you have the resources to meet it and there are steps you can take and I think there are forms of competitive movement that will really allow you to access that that whole experience of hope right yeah I think that that's definitely the case and you know I found my relationship to competition like evolving like now I you know used to be very competitive I'm less competitive now and now it really is more about the purity of the movement that brings me joy and less about how that measures up against other people but the barometer is really internal it's like how am i measuring up to the standard that I set for myself and the person that I want to be yeah yeah that's that's what I feel like my inner metric is too often I'm feeling like this either has impact or it doesn't and that there's less of a comparison like I'm not really comparing my present self to my past self like I don't have to get better and I'm definitely not comparing myself as much to other people like I have to be better then but I'm very closely attuned to did this thing I did did it have any positive impact and there's you know can be real sense of failure around that but if that's less competition then this kind of drilling into performance that's consistent with your values with everything that you know about psychiatry and psychology and human behavior what do you make of you know this kind of cultural trend where kids you know don't keep score at the soccer games and everybody's a winner and everybody gets a medal like you know we've kind of recalibrated our relationship to movement with young people in a way that has stripped it away of like any kind of peril or threat I suppose yeah so you know how kids now we're saying okay boomer when yeah I know yeah I was just reading your ties those great Taylor the Reds right so I will tell you one of the one of the gifts of teaching at a university uh-huh is you see cultural changes so one of the things the goals that I've set for myself is to be as open minded as I can when I see cultural change is happening that my instinct is to criticize them or to think well that's not gonna have the consequences you think it's going to have so you know that's one of those things where initiatives like Oh participation trophy you can you can see how things can go wrong and one of the things I'm trying very hard to do is to trust in the evolution of culture and that if particularly if young people are telling me something is good and meaningful that I actually I'm gonna trust that they are probably more right about it than I am so I I kind of I don't have a lot of mixed thoughts about that I'm not sure that there's a ton of science I don't want to stand on either way so I'm gonna default to a kind of open-minded willingness to tolerate changes in our culture that kind of go against how I was raised okay boomer yes well that's what I don't want them to say to me we should explain for people that are listening you don't know what that means it's kind of a a retort to you know older people's opinions about exactly but it's got to be interesting to you know be amongst so many young people all the time it forces you to change all the time that's the other great gift is like you know you got to stay with the program or you're gonna get passed by and so so many things you have to wonder you need a challenge by like relationship to technology or like what do you see on the daily that doesn't not so he triggers you but you're like wow look at that that's so different having to be really mindful about things like so when I first started making PowerPoint not even PowerPoint so back in the day what are those things called transparencies when we would give like public science talks right you'd have to win out your transparency over heads yes nobody was thinking if you're gonna use an image of a human being to go along with you like it says anger and you're gonna show an angry face nobody thought doesn't matter who you pick like in terms of stereotypes out who's allowed to be angry and who's not or or who's a more fully human and now like that's such a part of my work is thinking what images I might choose and what language am i choosing that that these choices that early on in my academic career people treated like they had no consequence because the people making those choices weren't really aware of the consequences so I feel like that's one of the things I'm always trying to deepen and learn from is that there's probably consequences to everything that I'm doing and to make more conscious choices about things that will improve my students learning experience or that will not create unnecessary harm just because I don't know that what I'm doing matters right is there anything though where you're just really struggling to get on board with tik-tok hey I'm finally on Instagram is the one that I have not signed up for it but you know I feel like I would probably love it if I could understand it yeah yeah never seen is very dance and movement or you know I think with the book tour you know about to unfold here you're gonna have to get on board I will yeah cool well what what was what was the most surprising thing you know I feel like you have this robust you know lifelong history and love affair with movement so you had to have gone into this with a certain sense of what to expect as you dope into the research so what it was there anything that surprised you or defied your intuition I was surprised by how easy it was to find people who had never been given permission to talk about why they loved movement and how happy it made people to be able to say I love my sneakers or swimming is so important to me that I kind of thought like I was a freak for loving movement as much as I did and then I've never had such a positive response to anything I've ever asked the public or on social media or friends and family give people a chance and they will tell you these amazing stories so maybe that I don't know if that's the most interesting answer but that's the mode - answer like the when I ask people about there's this idea called the pleasure gloss where when you do something that's really enjoyable you start to associate all of the sensations of that that experience they become they become insanely pleasurable even if at first they didn't mean anything to you like smells and sounds and when I ask people do you have a pleasure gloss like is that a real thing and people were like oh my gosh I love the smell of my yoga mat or oh the sound of my petals my putting my cycling shoe right-clicking it into the pedal is like dopamine rush like nothing else and and when I ask people is there a movement you've done that was meaningful to you like you never thought you could do it you have like a movement story it was flooded with stories like the woman who learned how to swim when she was close to 50 and she passed her swim test or you know the woman the first time that she could do a real push-up and there's the person who learned how to hula-hoop in a non dominant direction and this was like a milestone moment in her life I was shocked by how many people I knew I knew personally and I didn't know any of their movement stories and that it was like there that people had them it's cool we're we're in the midst of kind of an amazing moment culturally with respect to the explosion of interest in movement you know it wasn't that long ago that that you know jogging was seen as a weird thing and now there's you know bazillion people run marathons every year and and that's not enough so the ultra endurance community is blowing up and we have these tough mudders and the Spartan races and all these very unique challenges that are compelling us to you know go out venture outside the cubicle and and test ourselves in a very tactile way so how do you - what do you attribute that like why why nallett why are so many people like who wants to go get electrocuted and crawl in the mud and you know be freezing cold I don't why are we appreciated yeah why are so many people drawn to that now you know I don't as a part of me wants to pull back from the premise almost like is that really the case I don't ask no if you look sort of anthropologically or you go to you know societies in the near past that don't look like our modern society people are living very embodied lives celebration food production competition with with other communities everything is so fully embodied you know I thought is I don't know that the desire for this is so different but maybe we've lost a lot of opportunities to feel fully embodied in our roles and our relationships and our work that it's about restoring a sense of our full humanity that if you aren't using your body to do things that are difficult and to celebrate life and to connect with other people you're not fully alive and maybe people are recognizing that I don't know yeah I mean I think that affirms the premise in the sense that our lives have become insulated and hermetically sealed we're in our homes and in our cars and we're riding elevators and we're in offices with fluorescent lighting and we barely even go outside let alone connect with nature or our neighbors in any kind of meaningful way anymore and that innate human desire has been repressed to such an extent that it it's you know it's it's finally like needs a it needs an outlet right so this is what we're seeing people going out of their way to bring this kind of movement and stress into their lives because it speaks so profoundly to what it is to be human or to have a human experience you know and that it reminds me of something that a woman I spoke to when I was asking her why she loved rowing and she said that it brings out the best in humanity and I think that that a lot of the people I spoke to they said something like that as well that the form of movement they were drawn to they felt like it was not only bringing out the best in them but it was allowing them to see the best and others too I think that there's a lot of interest right now in these collective training experiences or elective movement experiences and I think that like I certainly know that for me it is very healing to see the best than others and there's a lot in our society now that Prime's us to see the worse than others so that may also be an antidote that right yeah that's super interesting that's super in yeah because media is all funneled towards trying to you know basically create these chasms between us and and even if you were to watch like feel-good media it's different when you when you see like the feel-good news clip while you're scrolling through whatever social media versus being in an actual room with people or you know where you can smell them like there's something about the the co-present embodied experience that's different than the little psychological uplift you might get yeah I mean if I do yoga in my house that's a very different experience than going to a yoga class where were even if we're not necessarily talking to each other there is this consensual activity that we're all engaging in together and there's something that creates like a unity or a congealing effect with the group that you can't really put your finger on or or articulate what that is but it's very very real you know yeah it's very real or even if I'm running with a group of people that I don't know like there is truth to that for sure and I'm wondering you talked a little bit about this in the book whether like this cooperative kind of byproduct of movement or the community building that it engenders if that works in a visual reality setting as well because we've got peloton and we have these kind of virtual communities around me did you go bot I thought John go bot that the drone that that follows you while you run after those hysterical so is there a know that people loved it they were like yes I want a drone that watches the target on my chest and runs with me so I mean we're so things like really want connection yeah so I don't know I have tried I mean your sister must have thoughts on this oh yeah I think she would say probably know also I mean even so four people don't know you know she she has designed a number of games and an alternate reality experiences and one of the strengths of most of her games and interactive experiences is they take place in the real world and they force you to interact with other people including the people in your life so my guess is that she would not be like totally in love with technology that allows you to simulate social connection rather than experience it right but what about like peloton is a great example like you're it's it's simulated but it's also real it's just displaced yeah in terms of I think so I've had so many people ask me about peloton I think they have a great model and that it's probably primarily not for people who like the medicine they need is the group experience and a lot of what they're doing is based on music and how it feels to do something hard and to be witnessed in a certain way that doesn't have to be like a closed focus you know you're having a collective experience in which there's a sense that that it's almost like a mirror like you see yourself as having done something really hard and the soundtrack helps and the teacher helps in the fact that it's often a live shared experience helps but I think that particular medicine is more about how you feel about yourself and how you feel about other people and again with finding the joy of movement it's about finding the medicine you need rather than thinking you have to do it all right get everything well music is a big deal I learned a lot you I mean again this is you have like almost an entire chapter devoted to the impact of music and movement yes an entire chapter I could have written a whole book yes I mean music Tommy's a little bit yeah it's I like when I go out I either use nothing because I just want to treat it like a mindfulness practice or I'll listen to audiobooks or podcasts because it's almost like that's that's a way of bringing a virtual community or something to engage me a little actually well I'm going and I'll only use music for like the end or whatever but I can't listen to music like for extended periods of time like I need bursts of it when I'm feeling like my motivation is waning or I want to finish strong or something like that that's funny that's exactly what when I talk to someone who leads work songs in a farming community that was exactly what he said that you use music when you really need it when you're exhausted when you're bored you need that extra verse of motivation so it makes me think that part of how humans have always used music is not like this constant soundtrack but that music brings an extra kind of energy and motivation to support us when we're reaching a moment where it's more difficult and actually the music sports psychologists I spoke to said something very similar to that like you you don't need an amazing playlist for every aspect of your physical training it's these you figure out what the right moments are and the song that will put you in the right mindset or help you do something even even more difficult more powerful but um so the way I think about music is that's actually not how I think about music because so human beings our brains seem to be wired to hear music as an invitation to move that's almost everybody so when you hear music particularly music with a strong beat that you like it activates the whole motor loop of the brain it Prime's you to move and when you move to music you get this a little bit of an endorphin rush and a dopamine rush that feels good and what I've observed in myself is that there's this other side part of it which is where the lyrics and the the key that the music is in all these different qualities of music also make you feel a certain way they bring out an emotion or an aspect of your identity mm-hmm and for me when those two merged it's like nothing else to get the endorphin rush of moving to the beat of music while the lyrics are making me feel a certain way about life and myself there isn't like no greater high that I get from from like anything and I think not everyone is as I've talked about genetic tendencies I mean that's deep in me that is like a defining part of my nature is nothing lights me up like moving to music and so that's like how I Center all the classes that I teach but for other people it may just be that you have the the normal human brain which will experience music as a ergogenic it will help you work harder it will reduce pain it will help you connect with others and you use it strategically but um you know there's this other aspect that that really is uh it's a trip yeah it's also very sense memory evocative right like you can hear a song you haven't heard in a long time and you can it'll just spring to mind like something very vivid you know I don't know what it I guess it's similar to like I like the smell of my yoga mat like there's a I don't know it's something that that happens biochemically or neurologically that can root you in a past experience or trigger a memory that can empower you in a certain way and there's certain songs that you just will go to time and time again for that purpose yeah and I think that because we listen to music with our whole bodies that those memories feel more embodied that that somehow we have access to it in a way that feels more visceral as you say why is it I don't know if you know anything about this but why is it that the music that we tend to go back to time and time again throughout our lives is music that was imprinted on our on our brains like at a certain age like you know I know that like like you know like REM will always be my favorite band doesn't matter you know lesson yeah because when I was 16 or whatever I discovered it and I fell in love with it and I still will go back and listen to those albums time and time again no matter what is happening in terms of music outside of that I mean there is research on this that because we tend to have more emotionally like peak experiences or intense experiences and also we're busy trying to define ourselves young people tend to use music as a way of building identity so what you listen to at that time you're gonna have more like rich emotions that get linked or often young people regulate their emotions with music so they're feeling you know more like chaos and they listen to a song and so you're just building a different intensity of memory and also because that's such a period of time where you're trying to figure out who you are that that music will remind you of both the intensity of that process and also how you feel about yourself and who you are I will say that one of the things that I work very well I don't really have to work hard at it but I'm very committed to is staying in love with popular music it's like a gift to myself uh-huh so that I have now 42 years of musical memories that are distinct and I feel like like I'm gonna try to stay with that as long as I can to keep building these musical memories so that it's like it's your chest expanding your repertoire for nostalgia and sense of self and joy and you could state you stay current with it yeah and I say curtain you know so I was saying to um some other women who teach group fitness who some of the women that I teach are on the young end in their 60s and then significantly older and are saying to these other women who are my age that right now their favorite song is a lizzo track and they didn't believe me and I was like of course you you just have to share it with them and give them an embodied experience of it who's not gonna fall in love with Liz oh so I always thought that I would always be hip to like whatever was happening in the music culture I have a 16 year old daughter right now and she's into like the most intense rap and hip-hop and I strike I have such a hard time trying to connect with it it's like super gnarly and it confuses me that she's so into it because it kind of doesn't exactly measure up with her sensibility but it's definitely doing something for her and I want to be on board because I want to have that shared experience with her but I found that's why she want to have it as a shared expression oh she cares but she gets in the car and she doesn't ask like who's playing the music she just turns it on and cranks it way up and I'm like just imagine you know 20 30 years from now how that's gonna be a cherished memory yeah like that song come on and you'll have this embodied memory and I'm and I have that awareness and I'm still like I just have you tried moving to it maybe what you need to do is is get down into the groove I'm gonna try I'm gonna think about you next time we're having that experience well no it's about it's it's a broadening your empathy I mean we didn't even talk at all about my work in compassion but well let's talk about it we can yeah but I think that that choosing to open yourself up to different forms of music is it is an act of broad empathy yeah probably does allow us to connect more broadly with with other people yeah and I think compassion particularly self compassion is a big part of movement right like movement is an act of self compassion that actually broadens your aperture to be compassionate towards other human beings yeah and vice versa I mean it's one big circle so I'm not somebody who believes you have to love yourself before you can love others I think you can love others and not love yourself and that either way if you strengthen sort of either side it is possible to get to the other if you sort of make a conscious effort and I think movement is great because it can allow you to do both you know I in the book I talked about you know communities where everyone has goals and they're cheering one another on and they're helping one another overcome obstacles and then they also get cheered on and they get supported by others I think that one of the ways movement helps with self compassion is it again it's not a do-it-yourself project it's not like you're alone you know taking care of yourself by exercising part of what makes it an act of self compassion is put yourself in environments where people are going to be happy to see you put yourself in environments where someone will help you out when you when you need help that you start to practice also opening to the compassion that's available to you in ways that may seem very small but actually are meaningful to allow yourself to be open in that way and and again to also you know at every level to think about gratitude to your body for what it can do and there are many ways that it can can bring out yeah receiving the compassion sometimes that's hard it is I think that is the you know self compassion is a very trendy topic right now mm-hmm and the one thing I think people are missing is that self compassion means you believe that you yourself are deserving of compassion and sometimes the source is you and you can say nice things to yourself and you can practice self-care but a big part of self compassion is okay who else cares about you and can you believe that other people care about you and can you be transparent about your suffering so that they can help you that is less discussed as a critical self compassionate skill yeah and we sometimes turn self compassion into this project like go into your compassion closet don't be a burden on anyone else you should be able to deal with your own pain and suffering by being self compassionate yeah but when it comes to receiving that from other people I mean you know the instinct that I have is that that's indulgent or it's burdensome to other people right like why should I have to involve them in my like you know project of self efficacy yeah and that sort of inner voice is not really any different than the inner voice that might say you know the voice of self criticism like you are so dumb why did you do that you'll never change that these are all voices we have that are barriers to compassion they aren't correct but they are pervasive and I think that when you know I mentioned that compassion is a big circle and so to unlock self compassion we often need to put ourselves in the presence of compassion that is not generated by ourselves like we need to see other people helping other people maybe we just need to be a witness to compassion in the world mm-hmm we need to feel that we ourselves are capable of helping others or caring for others so that we sense ourselves as having something of value that we and we notice how good it feels so that we can imagine if we let a friend or family member help us maybe that feels good for them too it's not a burden because we've experienced that it's not a burden when we care for someone we love and don't want to suffer so there's there's um it's almost like we don't want to get too myopic about the one part of compassion that is most critical and to put ourselves in this big system of compassion that is big than ourselves but it leads ourselves I got the super important it's something that's been very difficult for me to learn I know the way that I was raised and maybe it's a generational thing or just my personal experience but you know it's sort of like you know check yourself like don't bother other people with your problems like solve it on your own if you need to seek help fine but don't go around you know like trying to enlist all these other people and whatever it is that you're trying to work out within yourself yeah I mean that was how I was raised - is considered a virtue to not be a burden and to just take care of it yourself and I think that if there's a way to honor some part of that impulse towards agency and you know and autonomy while at the same time recognizing how how interdependent fundamentally independent we are that that's just not how we work as human beings you can't do it all yourself and it would make other people miserable can you imagine if nobody ever dependent like nobody want to listen to this podcast nobody cared if you got up in the morning and we don't want that existence either well it's it's an illusion anyway we're all interdependent and I think that we walk around you know what you're talking about stories we tell ourselves like we tell ourselves that these other people that we mythologize or look up to have done it all on their own and that if we want to measure up we have to do the same and it's just it's a lie you know it's a lie and I think it requires you have to marshal courage in order to be vulnerable but ultimately when you do that you realize that that that that's actually a strength and not a weakness and you have to I think you have to do it in order to realize or to overcome that counter-programming and to recognize that they aren't inconsistent I mean when we were talking about the ultra world and what I learned from observing it was that there was no there was no like ceiling effect the inner strength was just up up up up up and the interdependence was up up up a mom and that's how people do incredible things right it's not like if you accept help you are weaker and not still calling on the same inner resource it's just but you didn't see that until you dove into it deeply because on the scooter I was too busy like looks like these people are doing it on their own yeah I didn't mean I didn't know anything about it except you know the occasional horror story that I might like to see you know was it I didn't even write about this in the book but I did this whole interview process asking people about their DNFs and I heard so many incredible stories and I kind of regret I didn't find a way to put that in the book somewhere but these amazing experiences people had of failing at ultra-endurance events and what they learned from it and why I was meaningful and that was a fascinating part of the psychology too because I feel like that it also is it's such a perfect analogy for life in what way and in other words how they how they grappled with you know quote-unquote failure and used it yes fuel better performances later or what else no no no that it was a it felt like a tremendous act of self compassion you know one woman was talking about the the moment of having to acknowledge that the injury she had reactivated but she literally couldn't finish and she was going to accept that and still honor everything she had done and and have a sense of this as a meaningful journey and you know another person talked about choosing not to finish to help another participant who was sick and couldn't finish and that felt like the the best decision she could make that she was now a part of this other person's journey right where that person wasn't alone in it I know there's just there were lots of interesting stories where you see how people make meaning and find compassion and self compassion even in a moment that looks like objective failure and it was again it I think it's part of if you think the only thing you can like if you think you have to keep getting better I mean this is one of the I think mistakes people make about movement is because when we're younger we think it's about mastery and always getting better buts but you know in the book I talk about the people with Parkinson's disease we're taking dance classes at Juilliard yeah they are not taking dance classes at Juilliard to perform at Lincoln Center that they are there because that movement allows them to access some some joy and part of themselves and I feel like the DNF somehow it was also reflecting that part of movement that you don't always have to get better you don't if you could be getting increasingly worse until like the people in hospice care who are serving well how do you define victory and success like we can define these more broadly like it's a huge victory for somebody to sublimate their ego stop on the trail help another person like that's a moment of beautiful self-discovery that certainly shouldn't be discounted and you tell the story in the book of the Olympic track and field athlete who pulls the hamstring and his dad you know the famous this dad goes down there and helps them across the finish line and that becomes a story that transcends whoever won that race that day right and I think you know the ultra world is you know there's tons of those kinds of stories there all right well let bring the focus back on to new year's resolutions and I think one thing that happens with a lot of people is they're faced with this decision of like I have this goal I want to do this thing do I just go whole hog all-in overnight or do I take little bites out of this and and do it slowly in a way that doesn't completely you know upend my entire life I'm mystified by people who believe there's an answer to that question of course it's hen you must get that question every day and the thing is is you start where you are and you do what you can do and you do it in the way that feels like the right way to do it for you and whichever path you choose you don't tell yourself that's it or I failed like you know there there's some people who will take the baby steps they get that goal down to the tiny thing they can do tomorrow and feel successful and then they find that they don't actually feel successful because they don't see the benefit of it or it doesn't have a deep meaning to them so you should give yourself permission okay you need to go harder on this what's the version of this that when you finally get to do it you're gonna feel like that's a triumph and then you give yourself as much time because you need to to get to that point if you feel like you want to go all-in and then you find out a month later this is not working the way you had intended that it was a learning experience I think people shouldn't believe that there are these tricks to behavior change that are beyond what your intuition can lead you to if you are clear about what you care about and you're willing to experiment and not give up the first time it doesn't go as planned right I think that's super wise I think that these things are all about getting caught up in some kind of future tripping or tripping over you know stories that we tell ourselves about the past right and the truth is all we have is what we're doing right now and I kind of love the way 12-step does it it's just like you don't have to like you don't have to worry about whether you're gonna stay sober for ten years like what are you doing right now are you gonna drink your pill is your head gonna hit the pillow tonight are you gonna drink before you go to sleep tonight like that's all you got to worry about right like those tiny imperceptible things that in the grand scheme of things seem small but actually are the levers that move everything yeah I think you know one example I often think about so one of the most difficult things to do is to quit smoking there are some people who can do it cold turkey and I've talked to people who they made that decision and they just did it and for whatever reason it worked for them it was an aha moment but there's research showing that if you can delay the first cigarette of the day by five or ten minutes that that increases your chance of quitting so like that seems that seems totally possible delay the first cigarette by five minutes mm-hmm and that's something you could choose to do tomorrow and to know that both of those are pathways to the same place and you don't always know at first which one's gonna work for you but that and there's a million paths in the middle that look like something else yeah do you know dr. Judd brewer yes oh I also I saw the interview that you did oh you did yeah yeah he's not amazing he's great and he talks about being curious rather than like hard on you're hard on yourself or making judgment calls about these things like can you be curious about that craving can you lean into it and try learn about yourself by virtue of it and kind of suspend your judgments around it that idea of surfing the urge is something that when I talk to people about what has been most useful that has come out of this integration of science and contemplative traditions of all the ideas because that's a lot of the ideas I talk about they sort of are merging of both worlds and that idea gets mentioned all the time this idea that you can have an inner impulse that is telling you you have to do this thing because that what you're feeling right now is isn't you cannot tolerate it you need to give in or you need to say this thing that you're thinking or you need to buy that whatever it is that there's a process by which you can pay attention to it trust that it will not overwhelm you that you can ride it out and that you can broaden your attention to your values or your goals I mean that it works for everything it's not just you know actually how it was studied for things like cravings yeah pay attention it's mindfulness really all right so we got to round this up here in a minute but I want to leave people with some insights or perhaps a little bit of a cheat sheet as they begin to kind of map out their 2020 and I'm thinking about the person who is sitting there saying I hear everything you're saying but I just like when I think about movement I just can't get my head around it I've never moved my body before every every instinct is telling me that I can't do it or that it's not agreeable with me so how do we could y'all that individual into kind of rejiggering how they they're thinking about this so one approach is to think about the forms of movement that most reliably make people feel better and one is to go outdoors would go for a walk if you can walk or whatever that version is for your body that is very likely to have a positive effect and moving to music is another one or to do something that feels like play whether it's with kids or an animal or you know in a sport and or to do something with your body that feels useful like gardening or some sort of like labor that feels product in the book I write about this one community that that pairs exercise with community service projects which is by the way the only form of exercise that my mother will do writes for some people the movement has to have a purpose like planting trees or something yeah we're cleaning or helping people yeah so I feel like you know there are certain things where just try like are you so convinced that this will be miserable I haven't have you tried going out for a walk someplace that you can have some fresh air have you tried putting on a song you love when nobody's watching and just see what movement comes out of you that there are these little experiments you can do where because you're a human being even if you have what looks like a barrier even if you live with chronic pain or you have a disability or you're struggling with depression even in all those contacts most people benefit from simple forms of movement um the other thing I would say which is that's like the delay your cigarette you know by ten minutes approach but I often will tell people I got like what's the movement that inspires you what's the thing you said I could never do that that if you rethought it and said well maybe I could to to set that kind of that that possibility of a new version of you that you haven't expressed yet but you you sense might be in you and to do that thing because I feel like that's where often it's taking that bolder step of like I've never been a runner but I've always admired runners or I danced when I was younger and haven't danced in three decades but but what would that feel like to be free in that way again to to go to the thing that feels like you just want to be that person in movement uh-huh yeah it's beautifully put I think another big part of it and you talk about this in the book is is engendering the community aspect of it like enlist a friend or a buddy or create accountability and and community around this so that you're not doing it alone and there and you have to report to somebody like in a good way in a bad way like if you don't show up they're gonna give you but you know if you do show up they're gonna be there and you're gonna be with your friend yeah and to know that when you move with other people you build community like that's the other part of it too sometimes I'll tell people if you show up somewhere and you kind of like how it feels but nobody smiled at you that first time or like there wasn't you didn't feel like you immediately belonged and you have all these amazing connections that when you show up over time one of the most consistent things that happens is you form communities so if there's a place that you want to belong where movement is available if you if you're looking to build connections with particular individuals so know that movement is one of the best ways to do that and so you can keep showing up and that you actually will develop a network of support around movement right in the same way that your muscles change I mean those weights it just it happens so with this robust career and experience in human behavior evidence-based human you know science fact you know human behavior what is the thing that keeps tripping you up like what's the frontier for you that you're challenged by or that you're trying to work through well so the thing that is not new but the thing that is the most ingrained in me that I grapple with daily is um I just have a nervous system and a temperament that is overwhelmed by like life like you know anxiety is my default state and that has been true since I came out of the womb apparently so I feel like it's not a new frontier but certainly the things that I've been drawn to are things that make me feel braver about life that that interfere with my instincts to withdrawal and shut down the other thing that I've been working with a lot lately so a few years back I was in this period my life I was living in both New York and Palo Alto California and when you live in two cities you really don't live in any city and I felt the I felt the consequences of not having daily like neighborhood driven community and since now I'm located only in Palo Alto the frontier that I've been working on is trying to just honor and rebuild those daily neighborhood based connections that turned out to be much more important for my mental health than I realized so that's the that's like the frontier and then if I were going to try to give other people advice I'm just because I've been yeah we haven't talked about the one other passion in my life which is animal rescue and adoption and if other people are thinking about something to do and they don't want to exercise please adopt something I feel like I really want to write a book about the psychological and social benefits of of having a relationship with animals that's beautiful you should write a book about that coming up next I teach a course about your problems my books are all based on courses I got to figure out how to I don't know if the business school at Stanford is gonna want you to teach that class but who knows right what are the classes that you're teaching right now right now so the next class I'm gonna teach at the Business School is on communication and it is for for researchers who want to learn how to communicate their work both to the public and then and also just in any kind of setting mm-hmm super important coming from the person who has 21 million views on their - is it up to that now yeah it's really morning Wow crazy yeah I do got to be one of the most watched TED talks at this point it is and I did not honestly didn't think people were gonna see it why is that I don't know I said we said the main Ted stage sure wise but you know I gave that talk in 2013 and right I don't know that I really I just it felt lower stakes to me than it turned out to be because um well I just I didn't think that as many people were gonna see it as did I didn't do that whole process that most people do like the intense preparation or like hiring a coach and a stylist I just treated it like it was based on a lecture that I gave to my introduction to psychology class at Stanford it was like an excerpt from my psych one lecture and I just sort of treated it like that Wow well maybe that's why it worked yeah I don't know are you gonna do another one I don't think so no that was it unless they let me lead a movement experience well that would be a cool follow-up but you've got to be on the road quite a bit doing talk I'm that kind of thing yeah since it one of the things I'm trying to do is less of that to make the choice to not have to sub one of my movement classes in order to be on the road speaking to a crowd of thousands of people I've decided right now that that is values inconsistent for me and to make the choice to stay local right and where is your curiosity taking you now I am reading something about the answer that question for me is the the science that I'm reading a lot of and I am reading two types of science more like when I get the Google Alerts I'm more likely to click on all the abstracts then I get Google Alerts for so many different topics because you're just on PubMed like all day yeah okay one is the default mode I'm still fascinated by that how the human brain operates by default when left to its own devices I've been fascinated by that for years and the research on that I just I feel like it's one of those areas where every day there's something else fascinating like now well the default mode network is sort of like the new microbiome what's talking about it they weren't talking about even a couple of years ago but now it keeps coming up a lot so I think that's the other is compassion because I'm still so interested in how do we deepen and broaden our compassion and there's just a lot of research right now a lot of it is practical and applied so people who engage in helping and around a lot of suffering how do they sustain strong compassion that is not draining and traumatizing there's a lot of research right now whether it's in in health care rescue workers or Social Work well it's a big deal in animal rescue oh yes yeah I mean I've talked to gene Baur about this quite a bit like how can you can't you can't sustain that kind of work if you're overly emotionally attached to the results of it because you could never rescue as many animals as neat rescue right just do what you can that but I'm so the organization that I volunteer with the most their motto is save them all right and so there's always that paradox like you have the ultimate aspiration that's that's you oft I know it's right it's a huge challenge and so I feel like many people who are driven by compassion have that motto even if they don't know it but I'm here to save them all and then on that that you know day to day basis you are confronted by what Parker Palmer calls the tragic gap there's your aspiration and there's where you actually are and you're staring into this chasm of the tragic gap between reality and your aspirations and so part of sustainable compassion is figuring out how do you find a sense of compassion satisfaction in the middle of that tragic gap that would be a very interesting book yeah you know I think because there's a lot of you know people who are activists or feel strongly about certain things in certain ways who've devoted their lives to causes and there is a lot there's a there's a huge you know sort of psychological downstream you know kind of damage that comes with that yeah cool well I love the book the joy of movement you did an amazing job I think is gonna help like a lot of people so congratulations on this the full title is the joy of movement how exercise helps us find happiness hope connection and courage and if you want to hear the full story behind the subtitle you break it all down on your website and you have pictures and it's very fun and you're easy to find on the Internet as well just Kelly McGonigal calm and act Kelly McGonigal on all the problems to them yeah all that stuff and I assume you're gonna do a big full blown book tour extravaganza I don't know cuz I also want to stay local but I do have my first book event planned in New York City where we are going to have a little conversation and then a movement experience and then a dance party and I'm hoping that any place I travel to we're gonna find a way to connect people to communities of movement where they are so that's my goal cool exciting so you'll put that up on your website like your schedule and all that kind of stuff all right cool well thank you so much Kelly appreciate talking to you awesome come back and talk to me again I feel like there's a lot more stuff we can talk about so cool all right peace [Music]

Channel: Rich Roll

Views: 96,367

Rating: 4.8860273 out of 5

Keywords: rich roll, rich roll podcast, self-improvement podcasts, education podcasts, health podcasts, wellness podcasts, fitness podcasts, spirituality podcasts, mindfulness podcasts, mindset podcast, vegan podcasts, plant-based nutrition, HEALTH PSYCHOLOGY, psychology podcasts, kelly mcgonigal stress, kelly mcgonigal movement, kelly mcgonigal joy of movement, kelly mcgonigal rich roll, stanford psychology professor, stanford psychology phd, joy of movement, joy of movement book

Id: ifw03u4IrS8

Length: 112min 54sec (6774 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 09 2020

Reddit Comments

[u/F1RST-1MPR35510N]

This talk is blowing my mind.