Mormon Stories #965: Jeanne and Jason Booth on Losing Your Faith as Bishop and Bishop's Wife Pt. 2

hello everyone and welcome back to more of the stories cast part two of our interview with Jeannie and Jason booth my name is John Dolan this interview is part of our series on how and why Mormon bishops are losing their faith as bishops and this is at least the second interview of that sort there may be more but we have more to come but in part one of this interview with Jeannie and Jason booth who live in Syracuse we talked about their their lives as true-blue Mormons being raised in the church serving missions both of them getting married in the temple having four children within five years and serving in callings all the way up through the point of where Jason gets called as a bishop and now in part two we're going to talk about what happened how in the world how does that go wrong from the church's perspective and what happened how you guys feeling yeah what do you think what he got called his bishop um oh gosh that was that was scary right were you hoping for that was there part of you that like would feel validated if your husband would be called as a bishop that that would mean you guys were doing a right you had those insecurities growing up as a teen and guilt and shame yeah well one thing when we were married the officiator the guy who married us didn't know us from Adam but he had a lot to say about our futures and he predicted that Jason would become a bishop and so that was really validating for a lot of my faithful family members who were like we knew that it was prophesied the temple right but for me the way I I I was nervous about it i Jason's dad had died how many years before four and that kind of threw him a little bit and she wasn't praying like he used to let's talk about that let's go back just a little bit you had mentioned that you were in a bishopric before and you had some little mini mini blips to your to your faith so let's go back okay so in about 2006 2007 my dad got diagnosed with cancer and and it kind of threw us all you know yeah just changed our lives did you pray for it to go away talk about that lots of prayers lots of blessings and and you know my dad was so faithful you know I just I just thought had he been a bishop or he had been in a bishopric before clerk a few times been in young man's a Scout leader oh yeah he'd loved teaching the gospel loved being the gospel doctrine teacher it's just the best yeah wonderful example of of somebody living their religion loving take the zoo of clothes you see each other alive um we did we didn't know what we lived after we graduated with the first home we bought was only a couple miles from my parents so we were in the same steak he was in the high council previous to me being in a bishopric or anything he was like council and other state callings just a faithful devoted man and and I kind of and maybe I was a little naive but in my in my part of this my view of the gospel was if you live this way God blessings come right that was just what I thought and as far as I know my dad you know never violated the word of wisdom he didn't swear ever I mean he just it was like just lived his religion and I kind of thought you know what I was I'm a realist so I am engineering logically think things and so I I knew how serious this cancer was and I was afraid for my dad and and it was kind of later it was staged I don't know if it was stage three or four the time when we found out but it was serious and so I was what type of cancer kidney could become a bladder cancer but it was kidney and he had his kidney removed and then I was up and down hopeful that things would be better and that things would be okay and then it's sometimes quite concerned and as things progressed as as it got more serious I'm eventually moved to his lung and he had some chemo and radiation and and it was really rough on him and his battle with cancer was about three years long and and in the last year year and a half I kind of lost hope that he was gonna get better I kind of knew how serious it was and and I didn't tell anybody about that I just I just kind of I don't know I just I didn't have hope so doesn't be okay and my dad did as far as I know I maybe he was putting on a good show for the kids I don't know I don't really know how he and I felt but he was pretty hopeful a lot of the time and at one point towards the end when he was wound was really quite sick the Secretary to the twelve came and spoke in our state conference Watson I can't remember Michael Watson might have been this would have been in about 2004 2000 years old made out a bit and I don't remember if it was first press I can't remember who he was but he he had some Syracuse ties because he knew people in our stake and and commented on some of the older people on the state conference and and lots of times when a visiting general authority comes to a state conference right before the conference they go around and visit some people and talk to the state president about who they should go see in and sorry they want to go see my dad and I wasn't there for the visit but um I remember going later and talking to my dad out and behind his house in the backyard --n and he got a blessing from this gentleman and and he just testified to me how if he was to be healed because of the power of the priesthood I mean he he just this blessing seemed to mean a lot to him and at that time i i i just didn't have hope then it was gonna be okay still anyway we didn't seem to say because you say it that way if he isn't healed he wasn't faithful so he kind of gets the blame but if he is fail if he is healed then all the credit goes to the priests and right know it's kind of a win-win for the church absolutely it is absolutely because if something doesn't work out that was God's will right I mean God needed him or whatever and if it does you're committed more to the church because the church it's it kind of Prime's you absolutely to maintain your loyalty and I don't know if I wasn't um if I just wasn't getting my hopes up you know that if the realist in me was tempering my emotions so I wouldn't get to you know I said I don't wanna be disappointed I don't know but uh we went to the adult session of State Conference at night and my dad was too sick to go and we went and this gentleman spoke and Oh III don't wanna speak ill of so he he see me he got up to speak and he said I never prepare to talk I just go by the spirit and in my experiences when I did it did that it didn't go well because I just figured I wasn't a spirits enough person fly off the cuff I start repeating myself and rambling and and this guy did the same thing he just rambled on about weird subjects and he would call on people randomly out of the audience to come up and speak or play the piano insane yeah the next day so he just called on people so-and-so come up and talk about tithing for it just seemed like he was rambling and then when he ran out of stuff to say he would pick on someone else come talking he'd sit down and think about when to say next and get up and it was so and he went forever he went over by a half an hour just rambled and I remember thinking this is the guy that just blessed my dad and my dad was it was I just it just kind of crushed me like I I was disappointed I just thought this guy's fooling himself and it didn't affect how I felt about church or imagined I just I don't know I just hurt my feelings I guess it may be a little dose of reality and and we it was always kind of a point of contention in our marriage that we would go to stay camera I grew up State Conference was kind of a break day arguments in our marriage that was it it was over state conference I I didn't want to go we should go and so we had gone to this one and then by the end I looked at Jamie and she said we're not coming tomorrow yeah yeah so the next day I guess it was pretty much the same he he picked on some women out of the stands and said well you guys do a musical number they didn't know each other they crying in the hall before hands is they gonna sing in front of the steak you know and I I don't know anyway so my dad Memorial Day of 2010 passes away yeah crushed me hope for sure even though I knew kind of that it was coming you know I was not prepared for that and and it really affected me I think I was mad at God I I couldn't pray for a while I just couldn't do it I would know that Helen and I just know I couldn't do it and that so I was in the spring of 2010 and I got called to be in the bishopric in September of that year and then and I went to the stake president meet with him and we went together and I had a beard and I still active I was still serving in my elders quorum president C but I was struggling for sure and he he tells me that my dad's gonna be proud of me for what's coming is he excited about what's coming and asked me to be the second cals from the bishopric and I tell him hey I am NOT the guy I'm not spiritual enough sorry um but to him that's you know he says that's the right answer right you're not supposed to you're not supposed to seek after colleagues you're not supposed we serve in these callings because God wants us to not because we think we should and and and God wants you to serve in this calling I don't think you I hope you said that exactly but that's the that's the message I got right that and I still believe that callings came from God and um so I accepted and in reality the calling really was great for me um I loved being a counselor bishopric the the gentleman I served with were wonderful people and they loved me and I loved them and it was just great you know I kind of forgot about my my life and my problems and I served and President Hinckley had talked in conference about when he was struggling up as a missionary and writing home to his dad and his dad wrote back and just said forget yourself and go to work and that became my motto you know if I put my trust in God and I serve everything else to be okay and I did I am I tried my hardest at the calling you know I was nervous about speaking in front of people and conducting sacraments all stuff but that all goes away you get used to it you make plenty of mistakes in front of you know and people love you that our word was wonderful like just we had lived there for about eight years at that time so I knew everybody and I loved him I loved my ward and so it was easy to be the counselor bishopric I loved it it was announcer to my prayer yes I was what were you feeling Jeanie well I I noticed that you didn't pray anymore and I was really worried and I think you told me you're mad yeah it was it was I just it didn't seem to fit that this wonderful faithful and was taken from me from the world too soon and and I say that too soon and I in you know perspective he was 63 and you know in pioneer days people died do you know I mean I see I feel selfish almost saying my dad was taken from me to stew in 63 and over the course of human history that's pretty wonderful right but it was too soon but it was too soon and I felt like I don't know I don't know where my expectations of him should be able to beat this because because because of who he was so the serving the bishop it kind of healed me a little bit I through service and got back to studying the scriptures and and then I was forced to because I you know I have to give a bishopric message all the time and speaking all the time and it got me back into the gospel and and I remember telling a guy at work like a couple years in he asked about something about the bishopric and I said oh I it saved me I probably would be inactive if I wasn't the bishopric and he was shocked I can what happened did did somebody say some things if I offend you and I said no I just I don't know I was on a path and and this saved me and I felt like I felt like you know I it was a tender mercy it was a yeah it was really really great there were reports of oh there were very difficult obviously you know but it was good and she said you're worried about him oh yeah yeah yeah when he stopped praying yeah I'm I'm kind of a worst case scenario kind of person as it is and so my anxiety totally kicked in and I was I was worried that he was gonna lose his faith and that was that was a big deal that would have been a big deal right that was a big deal um so I was praying for him and I felt like this calling I remember telling a friend that this is really going to help Jason this is gonna be good and it was and yeah I was really grateful for that I felt like the Lord heard my prayer Wow okay so you serve how many years in that bishopric three three and a half okay so it wasn't a new bishop there's some changes that happened in our ward and so the second counselor that moves the first counselor I think and then I became the second counselor or yeah I think that's how it worked and yeah so three three nine years actually about three yeah and his were up and it was for a new bishop and everyone was wondering who would be you know and and I went so when the sealer prophesied that I would be Bishop when we got married my current bishop was in the room in this we invited him to the ceremony he was there too and when we moved to Syracuse he was in the state presidency and you know the practical part of my brain was like oh you know that he has some say on who won't be a bishop and he thinks you know so when I when my business current bishops time came up you know I was a little nervous about it and sure enough we we got a called and and same state president they called me to be the bishopric called and we went to see him and I again I told him I'm not the guy you know I went when you're in the bishopric for me I still had this bishop here who I really respected and who I felt was receiving inspiration from heaven you know for what we should do in certain circumstances and so I could rely on him like well I don't know what to do here but Bishop Bishop is gonna know and and I supported his decisions and yeah and we you know we we had the handbook handbook number one that was the gospel to us and we just followed that and but I didn't still feel like I was spiritual enough to be the guy and so the mistake president told me I was and and when you're called to be a bishop they've already sent your name to Salt Lake and they get back in approval signed by the First Presidency and he showed me that letter and I hear here it is you know stunned by the Prophet and approving me to be the bishop and you just you know you don't say no do that that's just a stamp of approval kind of a thing and and so I accepted it and I just happened so quickly they you know you set apart and that's that's your training right your said apart and and they left and there's somebody waiting outside the Bishop's office talked to me and in comes my first appointment and I was terrified terrified about all the things that the bishop handled that I didn't as a counselor right all the any kind of confession things or welfare things or the hard parts of the ward the bishop handled and I I was removed from that and all of a sudden I'm the guy and and and problems are coming and and it was difficult and and I was I was terrified but he was so good thank you and you know after a while it turns out the parts that I was terrified about were the parts I could do really well that you know I feel like I'm a compassionate person and loving and so yeah you know I I just heard the you know I cried with people and helped bear their burdens and loved them and sometimes didn't have any idea what to say but you know just you just talk and talk through things and sent him out to counseling just you know I don't know he's the coach and I tried my first got made the bishop I tried to improve my life a little better to try and increase my spirituality I stopped I love I love hard rock music I love it I cut off you know no more three favorite bands Metallica Motley Crue fan all that all the glam hair metal stuff ladies you know poison rat yeah love it I play the guitar and imagine I'm you know I like all kinds of music I love classic cologne it's more mellow stuff too but I so I I weeded out the hard rock music anything that I thought would take away from the spirit I removed it I tried to just tried to up my spiritual game a little bit to be in tune so I can hear that's what I could know what God wanted me to do am i calling the whole family did remember telling the kids and Jack how old is he 14 at that time yeah yeah it's like uh I got to be a better kid if you're gonna be a bishop like I gotta be I gotta step up my game and I'm like you're a good kid but he felt you know inspired to be better yeah yeah and it's it's a it's a great experience and serving the church doesn't miss a bishop because especially I mean I feel like most of the ward knows it's a difficult calling and they're there to support you they love you and kids love you you know I didn't know there's no you're the bishop you're a special guy and they they treat you differently and and there are definitely great parts to being Bishop and serving and being in the primary and showing messages with the kids and just feeling their love and and hanging out with youth and going on that Timmy's with them and there's just lots of great great parts of it that I really I really loved really loved it so you were called as bishop in what year the fall of 2013 okay I think it was September 2013 so that would be five years account of five years ago yep okay yeah and so what happened so how does a bishop start to question I was reading a Tribune article about a new essay on race in the priesthood that the church had released and so to 13 2014 someone yeah yeah by end of 2013 maybe December or so and I went to the church's website and navigating my way and found and found the essay and read it and and there's a part in there that just just really hit me in the essay they they disavow that dark skin is a sign of this divine distorter stand and I agree that is the case except I remember as a missionary sitting in my chair doing my personal study reading the Book of Mormon and in second if I think it's chapter 5 when the Nephites and Lamanites split off into two groups and the Lord curses the Lamanites with dark skin and it's very clear that that's what he does and it said it's it's I think it's Nephi speaking in first person for the Lord and he he says he cursed with the skin of blackness and so that they would be not appealing to the Nephites and I remember reading that as a missionary in New Zealand with with the lots of Polynesian people or you know where I'm serving and thinking ah that's horrible but it was from God like I completely accepted that this was from God and I and my feeling wasn't that that it was horrible like that I did this my feeling was how would it feel to be a person of color and read this and I was terrified that someone may ask me about in New Zealand but and it never came up and I and I just remember feeling that way and and when I read that essay and I read that paragraph that memory came back to me immediately and I thought well this these two things contradict each other here's the church saying we disavow that dark skin is a sign of a curse and here is either Jesus or Nephi or Mormon or Joseph Smith those only for people that could have written that that verse and they're saying in the first person it's a curse and I just shook something loose in me because I trusted my church leaders and prophets I just had faith in prophets that I that that if you follow the teachings of the prophets your life will work out well and and all of a sudden it just shook my confidence in in the scripture it's a little bit like well it never had occurred to me that prophets can be wrong and not just like a little wrong but in ways that can affect people's lives and for a little while that is just shook me it just bothered me and then then I found the other essays that they had released about I can't remember at this time which ones came out when there was about thirteen or fourteen of them and I think over the next eight months they released them kind of gradually and I read all of them as they came out and some of them bothered me a lot I read that I tried to be as fair as I could I read I read the footnotes I read everything I could read about about the essays to try and make sense of what's going on about what does it mean if a prophet if someone in this angel Scripture that I have that I believe is from God gives me bad advice what it what does that mean how can i how can I know which ones are which what's good and what's not and because I never felt like I was a super spiritual person I had to rely on these prophets or leaders because I didn't feel like I never I never received revelation or answers in a direct enough way to know this is how something should be or something like that so that that caused me some problems but again you know I I went back to my tried-and-true well that's an issue I'm gonna sort that out and I'm and I think about things a lot and I don't do anything fast I I think about things i I'd like to I'd like to hear both sides of arguments I like to give people the benefit out so that bothered me and I just kind of left it there and then you know I'm so busy as a bishop I did it I got stuff to do and I just kind of went back to my calling and and tried to do bishop stuff and then shortly after that or a question about absolutely so did you find out about the essays from the church sort of like hey bishops these essays are coming out here's where you find them here's what they're for here's what you need to learn about them nope nope so if you're serving as bishop when the essays come out yes and you know nothing about them zero how do you explain that mmm not I I think it's a shocking um that you're learning from the Trib yeah about these resources that are supposed to and and I assume that and I and I you know looking back a little bit of hindsight now kudos to the church for for putting out this essay and and saying hey this is a maybe a problem area in our past and something and we want to make it a little better but I don't know why it was just on a page and I'm and it was another front page of the website you know it was I think there was a link in the article that got me to it or because it wasn't Church strolls out essays or it was in zine no no the bishops didn't know I don't have a good explanation I don't know why they they didn't roll that out but it and maybe it's because it was shocking to people because it was shocking to me but I know I know lots of other people read them and have no problems with them so I don't want to well we know that that because because you know elder snow and others have admitted it that the church wanted to put these out sort of so that they couldn't be accused of lying or withholding information from the members but that they intentionally did want did not want them broadly read or known about because it would cause it could cause people to doubt a question right so they wanted him to be there only is the last resort emergency or only as evidence of against them being accused of of hiding or deceiving people yeah but my guess is they didn't want you reading I'm right and it sounds like there was a good reason for that right yeah yeah and this this kind of there were a couple series of events that that kind of eroded my belief in profits so this the essays happened and I camera if this was before after the state president that had called me had served ten years and time to get released and so I get a letter saying next week on Saturday the couple of general Tories will be here to interview people for the potential stake presidency opening and so it's it's got us you know my appointments at 11 o'clock they interview all the bishops all the high councilmen and a few other people that I think probably the state president recommends may be good candidates and the letter has on it questions about me my occupation my previous church callings and then it has a spot for me to fill out the names of three people who I think would be good state presence and come to the meeting with with this and and that kind of bothered me because I am a practical guy I get it that you know these guys are coming here and they don't know me they don't know anybody in the steak and they're they're tasked with choosing a steak president's gonna run the steak for ten years and it's a big big deal but I was a little disappointed like what what about revelation like if our colleagues come from God it shouldn't shouldn't he tell you who it would be you know at some point I figured higher up in the church there would be someone who's getting revelation in a different way than I do or different way than normal people were you just pray about something and feel okay about it and that's revelation right but I I hoped that there was somewhere there who was actually getting I know how it's supposed to work but where they would clearly know this gentleman is supposed to be the stake president right so that weekend comes and two members of the seventy are there and and they go in my interview on and wonderful nice loving people kind people Thank You elder Evans was the senior seventy there and and just I really impressed with him very kind and and they asked about me and my life and things and then they asked about who should be the stake president not in those words but like you know who I recommended and I told him I only had I think two names on there cuz I I didn't know and they asked why I thought these guys would be and I just gave my answers and in it I have no doubt that they prayed about it a lot and you know made the decision thinking they received revelation on who it should be and they picked a wonderful man to be the day president but that was a little bit of a just a I I just started to worry what if what if everyone is like me would have these men like the previous bishop was doing the best he could and just decided something and we supported it and we thought it was revelation but he just was doing the best he could and what if these guys are doing the same thing and what if it's like that all the way up and and that thought just kind of stuck in me in my brain and then they chose a new gentleman to be a state president who a wonderful person and the week before that as Bishop I got a call from someone mistake saying we need to release sister so-and-so from cameras primarily Society because she was being called into the state primary presidency so I talked to her and released orange and she knew she was being called and we released her and then state conference comes and they announced the new state president and they don't they don't announce a new state primary prison and and and she looks at me and I'm like I don't know what's going on and it turns out the wife of the new state president had been called by the previous state president to be the state primary president and then the General Authorities came and called her husband to be the state presence so they couldn't do both do balls so they didn't call her to be the state primary prison because he was called mistake and I and I found this out later talking to the new state president and and that bothered me a little bit like well maybe that stake president is just like me to the previous one he he obviously felt inspired to call this person basic primary president and then someone else was inspired to call the husband to be the stake president and maybe there's another reason that the she needed to think she was going to say president for that week who knows but it seemed to be a little normal ordinary not special and so I have to ask did they call a stake president someone you recommended no okay no so I wasn't you know and so what you're saying is you were starting to question the the inspiration process yes yep as you understood it yes yes and I wonder if it was just ordinary people just making it up yes versus really being led by God yes and and that in conjunction with that and then reading the other essays just made it worse the I just if if if me if I could be wrong about something and if reading the other essays there are issues with Joseph Smith with Book of Abraham and polygamy and all sorts of things and I thought if he's wrong about things too how are we supposed to know when they're right and when they're wrong and and is it not a reliable process is it not a straightforward way and maybe I viewed revelation 2 simply when I was younger and maybe I'm naive about how it works but I from all those stories I read in all the scriptures it's pretty straightforward God talks to the prophet and he tells us what God wants and that started that was shaken for me severely and later I'm gonna mess all this order up probably but the the the essays bothered me very much and then I don't know if we want to talk about at one point so oh maybe three or four months I don't want to talk about how it affected us yeah absolutely um several months into this as that's really affecting me I I talked Jeannie and I are pretty open we are you sure we talked about everything except for when I was Bishop I didn't you know I took I took my responsibility for privacy serious and I didn't share things that shouldn't be shared with anybody and my previous bishop set that example my state presents just always emphasized we keep confidences we do not share things that shouldn't be shared with anyone not your wife nobody so I take that very serious but my own struggles my personal things that you know we talk about things and and at one point I I can't remember how we initiated this but I remember we're sitting on our bed and and I mentioned the essays to Jeannie and and I told her how much they were bothering me and and that my cotton and my confidence and profits were shaken and that how can we know this and and and I remember her being quite terrified it went pretty well but but she was scared and and I am the only thing that stands out to me from the conversation was towards the end of it she says to me well the church is still true though right and and I I said maybe and and she is like I had slapped her and then she says well there's still a god right and I said probably and and then she just like laid down like her my it was horrible just incredibly scary you know just just fear just this man I love and trust and um trusted to this day in the gospel was questioning and I prayed and prayed and prayed that was my go-to to have him have a change of heart and to see the truth because there was an answer you know and yeah yeah it was difficult it was really difficult but it seems like it wasn't very long before I would I read what you had read what would you write I think it'll well was it why I went to I went out of town for work first no I was to mess about that yeah because what were you gonna read there no it was scary yeah yeah so so I had to leave I had to go out of town for a month for work and around what year this would have been to 2014 okay so spring of 2014 I think most of the essays were out at this time and I'd read all of them and they bothered me but I didn't talk to anybody about them except for Jeannie and and I didn't go to anyone I know who could I talk to you yeah I just didn't nobody and I went out of town for work and I happened to go to Texas and one of my best friends from New Zealand like I didn't serve with him as a companion in his missionary but he were there at the same time and we just got along great and he lived there and I I went to see him and I spent a weekend with him and his family and went to church with them and and on one of the days somehow Church the essays came up or I can't remember how it came up but it came up and and we started to talk about him and he was familiar with everything and for the first time I had somebody I could talk to about how I really I mean I talked to Jeannie but I was reserved because I didn't want to scare and I hadn't made decisions or anything I just was talking through my pain or my thoughts and and it was it was like wonderful to be able to talk to him about all of this and he was familiar with these things and and still was active in the church but but didn't really believe anymore but still completely in currently the word clerk and you know just very active in his word and a wonderful he's a wonderful person but talking through all this was so therapeutic for me to be able to just express my concerns and what if this and what if it means this and this and this and this you know all these things that I'm stable talked and I remember talking to Jeanne on the phone later about how I said we'll talk to him and he didn't really believe and you know and she is terrified here the terror in her voice that I'm well this was terrifying for ya are you worried about Jeanne I was worried about um gosh if you if you leave the church I mean what else will you do this is what keeps us on the straight and narrow you leave the church how can you still be a good person if you leave the church our celestial right marriage our eternity is affected but also he's Bishop right yeah there's that too but I guess I was kind of selfish I'm like this is not what I had in store yeah and there was that that you were Bishop and ie and at that time I didn't have any thought of leaving the church or not being bishop anymore I still was just grappling with okay the church maybe isn't completely what I thought it was but I still love it it's it's doing good in people's lives I hadn't decided on anything I guess I just was still struggling with the idea and so I was still committed to everything which of the other essays did you know impacted you besides the race and the priesthood The Book of Abraham si what about it and I the so the fact that the scrolls the the Joseph translated to become the Book of Abraham we're not it didn't have anything to do with Abraham they were just normal funerary texts that had been translated off so those who translate the Book of Abraham before the rosette have been discovered and people know how to read Egyptian and then later we learned how to read Egyptian and and found those scrolls and they did not contain anything to do with the book of a ram and they're you know they're the sa gives suggestions on other ways to look at it right that Joseph thought they were or it doesn't matter that they didn't match he's still receiving a revelation and gave us this wonderful book of Abraham and that has all these great truths in it and so it doesn't really matter but but it did matter to me because it was another another spot where maybe this revelation from God isn't as straightforward as I thought it was maybe it's maybe it's not clear and and so how much of this is being influenced by Joseph the man rather than by God or by it just was another weight of my revelation may not be what I think it is bucket and and then somewhere around this time I found Mormon stories I'm sorry I I needed more information about something I can't remember what I I just wanted to know I wanted to solve this problem those ahead of me okay there must be a better explanation for some of this stuff and you start searching and something very long that one of your Google results is John delay then I like Google John delenn and I get a good and evil spoken of this person and and I find out about more stories and I can't remember what episodes I listen to or start off but but um I start learning more about all of these things and I one of one of the early episodes into assignments other Tain's it was a bishop in Australia who was a is a geneticist in plant biology and the essay there's an essay about Book of Mormon and DNA study na studies a little cumin and basically DNA studies have been done of thousands of current American Indians North and South America Central America and none of their DNA points to Israeli or Israel ancestry you know they came from East Asia across the land bridge and that bothered me a lot because I read the book a moment as a literal history of American Indian people and I know as with all of these issues right there are more than one way to look at them and there are ways to look at it as well there were people here before and there's all these theories and the limited geography theories of well it was just this small group it wasn't the whole lands but when I read it I read it as it was everywhere these were the only people that came god saved this country for these people he did it twice once for the Jared Knights they blew it did again fairly high and the middle kites and and they mostly blue also and there weren't other people here that's how I read it and and maybe I'm wrong about that but well that's what Joe from Joseph Smith until present day that's what we had all been taught and that's what they all the prophets and apostles had believed yeah so for for them to come up for apologist to come up with a counter-narrative now is really damage control yes it means that prophets and apostles were wrong in their interpretations for yeah a century and a half and what is that what does that speak to their prophetic authority if if they didn't even know who the book was talking about and they would travel to the Pacific Islands and the central South America telling everyone they were Lamanites for generations and generations yeah and now the sudden we have no idea not only who's Elena Knight but who the book was written for if the Book of Mormon was written for the Lamanites and now now the Lamanites we don't know who they are or you know that's a problem yep yep and and and that really is the core issue for me that that the prophets misunderstood this just as much as I did so they so that it was another notch of hey these guys are just like me and the the as I dug into the race and the priesthood essay more and I looked into that issue more - I came across the correspondence of letters between Laura Nelson in the First Presidency Laura Nelson was a professor at Utah State University and he had been in Columbia I believe Colombia Brazil South America and so the church was looking at expanding to that area and the general authority wrote to Lowery and said hey we're looking at going here how any I specifically asked them how much interracial mixing is going on how much Negro blood do you think there is in this area and Lowery writes back saying well I kind of didn't think that was a real doctrinal thing that that that this Negro blood thing was doctrine that that was just kind of our how we're doing things but I didn't think it was real and gets a letter back from the first presidency and and I'm messing this up you go read the English interchange will include those in the show yeah so Laurie Nelson correspondence with the chorus plan is coming back from the he gets a response back from the first president he that is brutal that tells him look you're wrong this is doctrine it's always been doctor and they use the word doctor and this is the way it is and and my interpretation of reading it was basically we don't need well-intentioned intellectuals telling us the servants of God what the doctrine is and what isn't this is what it is and he writes back again saying that's very disappointing and I think he publishes a letter in dialogue or yeah in something that he comes out he gives them a heads up saying hey I'm writing this and I'm gonna get another response back saying we're disappointed in you and you should know better and it was crushing to me that these are the men these are the prophets that should be able to sort this out and they were wrong a hundred percent wrong on this issue and and the church today disavows what they were saying and that's not the only example there's another what's his name a boy scout other other examples of people who were ahead of the church on race issues and wrote and said hey we get a full pinion or Eugene England or the guy who was a not the Boy Scout leader that one and then Stewart Udall communicated mister u.s. senator Secretary of Interior yes there were several Romney MIT Romney but but yes to read all what happened so he he writes saying look he writes to the First Presidency and says this issue is a is a problem for the church this is becoming an issue I'm getting letters of people saying you belonged to this church which teaches this horrible thing and so he sees writing to the First Presidency we need to change this because it's harming our reputation in this country and he gets responses from Delbert's Tapley and another apostle that are just very in line with the Larnell response horrible and and again they reaffirm previous doctrines that this is the way it is people don't tell god what to do God tells us and we tell you because as I remember in the 50s the First Presidency issues a statement saying the Negro policy is doctrine that's my understanding and so they were kind of I don't remember the timeframe but yeah both of these letters was the first presidency didn't have that to the shownotes - there's a First Presidency statement declaring the black black band as doctrine not just a policy yep and and and and if it is like right if if there's a God who decides that is the way it is and says that how is that that stinks but he's God and if it is that way right I expect the Prophet to do what they did and stand up for this is doctrine we've talked to God and he said this and this is it and and kudos for them for standing up for what they thought was right and what they thought was God's will that's what their job is but in hindsight now it turns out they weren't right the church now disavows those theories and doctrines and so if they weren't right how can we trust them that's my issue is how can I know that if if the Prophet is telling me something that I don't think is right and I'm not getting direct communication with God what are my options my options are to look into the Scriptures on my own read everything I can and decide for myself and if I don't trust that the Prophet is telling me something if I can't trust it that they're right I got to just go off what I think and that and that's it and so that's what I do know right so though that that issue for me just just kind of eating at me that I lost confidence in my leaders that they really knew the will of God and that's it I I kept doing my calling I love my colleagues still I what's it like to be Bishop when you no longer have confidence in your leaders how do you do that it's difficult well so I still had confidence in I say president you know he was a good guy as far as confidence as in I know that he is trying to do what's best for the people of his area he loves people and so and I loved my ward and I wanted people to be happy and well and so that part was oh no change right the problem came when I had a I had a member come to me and say hey I'm worried about someone so my ward my friends and they're in my ward he's struggling with his testimony and I'm worried about him so I asked the brother to come in and we had a talk and he is struggling with the exact same things I was talking about it was when I bring it up I we talked just chat chit chat I don't I don't know make an appointment I just see him and say hey do you have a second and I talked to him before we did this interview to make sure it was okay that I shared some of this and and he was our Scoutmaster best scout master in the world I mean amazing took the boys everywhere awesome I brought him in asked him and he'd be a Scoutmaster for a while and I asked how how's it going with his calmness and he said great I I love it it's going well and then I said how are you doing and how you know and and and I since I knew he was struggling I kind of tried to take the conversation there and he said well I'm kind of going through a faith transition he said I I I'm struggling with I've read these essays about race and the priesthood and I can't really that when he said that I am like I first felt I get it but then I'm like I'm the guy this picture was all these concerns and I agree with you 100% and and I just we talked a little bit and I just said we love you being our Scoutmaster and he still he didn't really believe in the church anymore at that point I just asked him what do you like to continue to be Scoutmaster we would love her to have him and he said yes and I said great just do what you need to do and and it was great and then I had kind of a follow-up meeting with the brother who was concerned about him and I said well he's got some pretty legitimate concerns about this race and the priesthood and he said well I've read it he told me about it and I read it and I read the footnotes and that wasn't doctoring in and I start not arguing but pushing back a little bit and then my and then I'm like wait a minute I'm the bishop I'm not supposed to be I'm supposed to be on his side and so I just stopped and said yeah I don't know what to do I was torn so I I didn't I felt it felt inappropriate for me to be it pushing a non faithful perspective so I stopped and and then testifying with issues as you have to get up and conduct and yeah yeah you know you usually bear testimony of the things we bear testimony of Joseph Smith Book of Mormon but his were very creative well I couldn't say I couldn't say something I didn't believe and so I it got to the point where I could not testify about the Book of Mormon Joseph anymore I was a bishop and so I focused on the Savior and and God loving us and and service I focused on service that became mine because I still believe when we serve other people it puts our own problems in perspective and there's something there you connect with people serving and it makes your life better and their life better and so I still believe that with all my heart and so that was my testimony that but our job is to love people and serve people and so Jeannie how are things going for you during this time where he's concluded the churches and what it claims to be and he's kind of stopped believing in the church's truth claims and I'm not sure I knew that you had stopped believing at that point right and I'm serving as young women's president so I was busy and I've got four kids so I'm praying for you and I'm I think I got released pretty soon after his vision right oh yeah no I was in primary you're right yeah but I was consumed with serving and being a mama and worrying about you but knowing that you'd figure it out you know trusting that you'd figured it he would figure it out too but yeah and how did this is pray we're a little fuzzy on how well I was listening to a lot of podcasts and I love NPR I love John not I just got a John delicious dad for breezy it was my other favorite and he had us yes yes and he had on Johanna Brooks and her book Book of Mormon girl and I just fell in love with her a little bit you know she's just fun and and brought up a couple of issues you know about growing up in the church and I got her book and read it and I think from that podcast also know I can't remember exactly but I learned about Lindsey Hanson Parks year polygamy and that was kind of something I started listening to and I got in sacred loneliness we remember previously you had read a book about Ms Smith years before yes and it wasn't that I've read that sense it was called Emma and I and it highlighted a few up polygamy and polyandry as years before this was this was our kids were young and I didn't even finish the book I I closed it dark feeling this is my turn to be worried about her I remember I don't remember he specifics but I remember polygamy came up and and she was fired up yeah just like well it wasn't what I had been taught that I had and I taught on my mission that polygamy was to take care of the widows whose husbands died on the way over and Brigham Young had a lot of wives he was taking care of people and that was that was my idea of polygamy and when I found out that that wasn't what it was and that this this man that I tracked it into on my mission actually knew more about Joseph Smith and his polygamy and marrying other people's wives I just had to know everything I had to know everything about it the earlier book though you got a little bit got a bad feeling got fired up and then the book went away and right that was it right years years and years until until you started questioning things and that's when I started I think the as well there are a couple essays on polygamy in the church and I think the later one about polygamy and Kirtland in Nauvoo I can't remember we had been the earlier essay that came out when she started to look at polygamy yeah yeah and then phone books podcasts know where your polygamy do for you oh I just went through it I listened to every week she came out with the new one and and she was trying to figure it out she I remember in early on she says don't worry we're gonna get this figured out it really bothers me - but we're gonna figure it out and I thought yes let's find out about these women and and they have these stories that you don't hear and their lifes were very much affected by this and it and it just wasn't what I thought it would it was and what I taught what it was and it wasn't okay it wasn't okay that Joseph Smith married teenagers girls who worked in this home behind enemas back I mean I the purchase sisters I read about that in in sacred loneliness and and and then after secretly marrying them he's working on Emma to accept polygamy and she has to accept it if she wants salvation and so she does and she says you can marry these two girls The Partridge sisters which he had already married two months before so they put on a sham marriage for Emma sake so and I think of legacy and I think of all the movies that I watched where Joseph and Emma are burying their children and they have such a love story and it was all not true it wasn't true wasn't the whole story yeah yeah and I and I felt like I didn't know what I believed anymore it like Jason said his was kind of a slow simmer for years really yeah I felt like my testimony came crashing down in two weeks I had to go out of town again at this point back to Texas for a couple weeks again listen this is months after I've gone the first time and I remember talking to Jeannie on my way home from work to my hotel and having the reverse experience of the first time when I was when I was talking to her and she was really concerned about me I'm talking to her and she's telling me about polygamy and all these things and she is fired up and now I'm like whoa I'm worried about her like hey slow down we'll get we'll figure this out and and I'm concerned about now her bail and being out and and looking back at this it makes me chuckle yeah yeah yeah so take us to the point of kind of your your crash and then we'll we'll start up the next episode about how you handled well yeah like I said it was really quick and I had a lot to do with polygamy and also the Book of Abraham was kind of the clincher when I realized that Joseph Smith didn't translate that papyrus that it wasn't you know I have on on in my kitchen now the facsimile there - number two - remind me when it when it's really hard because it's hard to leave everything to leave the church and to leave our friends and and to have our family not respect us anymore you know or feel like we've lost definitely lost respect I look at that and I think about that that's why it's because it isn't what I thought it was and it wasn't what he said it was just I started reading rough stone rolling and and a lot of people read that and know and and work it out that it was okay and that Joseph's search for treasure with a peep stone and but for me I for years and years before all of this I would be on my treadmill and I loved church history and I had an institute manual of history of Nabu I can't I can't remember it was green and it was history in the fullness of times yeah that was part of my journey too I read that and I read it I loved the history and so when I'm finding these things out it was really if I felt betrayed I felt I felt betrayed I don't know how else to say it but I thought I knew what I believed in and I and this wasn't it and I wasn't okay the god I I knew didn't devalue women we were we were all the same and polygamy devalues women there's no way else to look at it that way and I have little girls I did I just I remember sitting in churches you were still bishop you know with talks going on and every time Joseph Smith was mentioned I'm just you know the dissidents was was rough there for a little while yeah so what's it like to lose your faith while your husband's bishops and to contemplate the implications of that what was that like for you it was it was what went through your mind no I was worried about what everyone would think for sure convinced that they would think that we just were lazy skipping out of callings or well that's not true because that we we thought after we left we'd continue going to church because we loved it I loved it I loved the songs or used to and singing together in the community I was just really sad I was just really really sad to think that things were changing and it wasn't going to be like it used to be ever ever again and I was worried for my children and I mean how were we to raise them if if not in the in the church although and we can talk about this later it's been a really good thing for some of my kiddos um we'll talk about that okay but you were scared and disappointed inside yeah yeah yeah very afraid right the word I use I it crushed me yeah all right well this concludes part two of our interview with Jeannie and Jason booth where we find out how Mormon Bishop and a Bishop's wife in 2014-2015 get called as inspired by God and within a few years have lost their faith so thank you both for being willing to share so much of your story so far it's really powerful and what we're gonna cover next is kind of what do you do what do you do with your bishop or bishops wife the whole Ward looks up to you as leaders and as the strong ones and you realize that you don't believe it anymore do you stay in it and just keep serving and and lie and stay silent or try and be a progressive bishop or is that not tenable is that not sustainable so that will be what we cover next in part three of our interview with Jeanne and Jason booth so don't go away come right back and join us for part three of our interview thanks guys you

Channel: Mormon Stories Podcast

Views: 27,357

Rating: 4.7252746 out of 5

Keywords: lds, mormon, faith, doubt, transitions, bishop, crisis, book of mormon, joseph smith

Id: jB_MA8KVt9M

Length: 72min 48sec (4368 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 17 2018