Mk 262 Cloning - pt 3 - Sierra vs Nosler with CFE223

alright guys time to resume our mark 262 cloning series this is the third video the first video we deconstructed some rounds of these the Black Hills focus there it is the Black Hills 77 grain otm 556 also used by the military and designated the mark 262 mod 1 we're trying to clone this guy these are expensive so we want to do it cheaper without sacrificing any accuracy or any velocity when compared to this guy so that's that's the quest we're on in video 1 we talked over a whole bunch of stuff but that's where we chose our first few powders that we wanted to test the last video we tested accurate 25 20 it performed awesome we came up with a really good potential clone load with accurate 25 22 day I want to move on to Hodgdon CFE 223 so that's today's powder now the biggest development since our last video is I got some of the nozzle errs this is the 77 grain custom competition with the Candler now in the first video when we were analyzing the bullet and comparing it to our 77 grain sierra matchking with a candle or they didn't quite match up exactly and the thought was that it was actually a nozzle bullet in our box of factory ammo they've used both bullets in the past right we thought it was going to be Sierra but we thought you know but it was looking like it might be Nasser well I've got them in hand now and I've been able to have a look and yeah I don't think these are it either just looking at the candle or design it's much different it's much more shallow and less significant which blows my mind because if you go out there looking for information about this there's this story that the Sierra Cana lure that they added to this bullet at Black Hills request or the military's request at somebody's request was a shallow half-hearted insignificant attempt at an actual candle or while Nosler gave a real candle or if you look at look at this picture that's completely opposite right the Sierra looks more substantial unless I mean you know I'm not an expert on anything if you haven't figured it out by now so I'm gonna expert on kala lures maybe there's some quality in that Nosler can lure that the Sierra lacks and I'm just not spotting it due to ignorance alright so I looked at the weight of the bullets I looked at the length of the bullets and I looked at the length of the bullet base to the ogive of each bullet and here are kind of some updated numbers that show our new Nosler there are a couple tenths heavier they're a little bit shorter and the bullet base to ogive length is substantially shorter almost 25 thousands of difference between bullet base to ogive between the Naza and the Black Hills bullet and almost 40 from our sierra so it's just looking like this you know or the Black Hills bullet is indeed a Sierra we're going to go ahead and go forward with this series and shoot both of them we're going to shoot to Sierra and the nozzles are Nosler performed pretty poorly in the last video but we did not have the one with the candle or so yeah we're kind of starting from scratch here this is our first time with this exact design so for charge weights back in video 1 where we talked about some of the information I'll look looked up in quick load very poorly by the way right quick load can be as accurate as you make it you know it can only give you results when you really feed it all of the details and I didn't so this was a very generic quick load run but it showed a max charge with CF v 223 of 24.9 if we go on the Hodgdon website they have data for the 77 grain sierra matchking and they show a max charge of twenty four point three now so that is 223 pressures so we know it would be a little bit high for fire higher 4 5 5 6 pressure anyway so I think quick load is pretty close at twenty four point nine so what I want to do is I want to round it up and I want to shoot all the way up to 25 point zero and then I want to step back from that in three tenths of a grain increments so that puts us starting out at twenty three point eight and working our way up to twenty five point zero another thing about the Hodgson data it was done at an overall length of two point two six zero we're a little shorter than that we're going to shoot two point two four six which is what matched our our box of factory ammo from Black Hills for primers we're going to continue to use the CCI number 41 here for a while until I finally get a hold of some Remington seven and a half's because we're pretty sure we're aiming Tintin and a half is what was in our Black Hills and four brass we are using the exact same batch of Lake City brass from the last video now in the last video these were once fired these were virgin once fired range pickups really they had been fired in all sorts of different guns probably and you know who knows where the heck they came from so in that video I had resized it with my reading small based sizing die you know I resized them all with my reading small based resizing die and we just started from there this time however they had all been through my gun I used my Hornady comparator you know cartridge comparator kit to measure the cartridge base to the shoulder and as I was setting up my resizing die I set it up to where I only bumped the shoulder a few thousands so I did not you know crank my resizing diet died down as far as I could and resize them as much as possible trying to do it as little as possible we want good function still of course but we want to work this brass as little as possible and my small bass died just you know it goes a little bit too far I'm learning and I pulled out this Lymon ammo checker was a good way to demonstrate it like in my ammo box in my in my box here I've still got quite a few pieces that I had resized last time with that die setting so here's a picture of a case that's been resized too much and you can see that case head is just a little bit below flush right but if we look at one that I did today where I only bump the shoulder a few thousandths you can see it's actually just slightly above flush so this block is supposed to be you know a semi minimum chamber essentially so we're not quite down there as far as our headspace goes which is good because hopefully this is enough for my gun but if we do happen to run into some function issues today or something this will be our most likely source to blame it on because we've had no function issues with the bullets or the you know any of that so and CFE 223 is gonna be a good good functioning powder in this application anyway so we won't be blaming it will be blaming my resizing job so we'll just see how that goes as you might have seen I have already primed this brass yep I put it in the wet tumbler just for a little while after the last video resized it and I checked all of these and they really did not grow much I have trimmed to about 1.75 5 in the last video and I didn't find any that were over 1.75 7 so I guess maybe that minimal resizing job helped a little bit maybe they didn't stretch as much as they might have otherwise so I'm ready for powder so I'm almost done seeding and crimping the sierras they have gone pretty well nothing weird going on at all now what I did do now that I have the final Nosler bullets we're going to use I finally pulled out my gun and used a split neck case if I can find it it's somewhere around here whatever have you guys seen me test maximum overall length with a split case before well that's that's what I'm talking about I don't know I've got freaking garbage 223 black brass laying everywhere right now where did that go now it's gonna bug me there it is yeah one of these just a sized case that I put a split down the neck I'll put a bullet in it and then chamber it in the gun and let the rifling finish seeding the bullet and then take an overall length it's painted about to do there's easier tools to do that but that's the way I did it I was really surprised by the results or absolute maximum overall length with the Sierra would be about 2.3 inches so that puts us about 54 thousands off the lands now with the Nosler I found it to be 90 thousands longer 2.39 zero was our max overall length with the Nosler that is crazy so that's pretty drastic ogive shape differences there no doubt about that now in a recent video someone had brought up that they were using the Hornady bullet comparator kit you know this little guy that you screw on your calipers and it goes down on the bullet and you meet measure overall length to the ogive and what they had thought and what I think a lot of people mistakenly assume is that once you determine how far off the lands you are with a round like let's say we somehow figured out this is perfectly kissing the lands of the rifling it's right at maximum so then we take an overall length with our bullet comparator and the next time we pick a bullet you know whenever we switch to the next style of bullet if we set it to that same length with with our Hornady bullet comparator then we'll be the same distance off the lands right no that is not the case this Hornady comparator does not measure the ogive at the same spot that actually touches the lands of your rifling so different Oh Drive shapes will have different readings with this tool now out of curiosity so we know so our our borer is what 224 and I was looking around it looks like in a 22 barrel the rifling is about two and a half thousands tall which is a total of five thousandths so if we've got a 224 bore and we subtract five from that that's about the distance between the land in the bore about 219 is about what I came up with so if we measure inside of this Hornady bullet comparator it's coming out to 211 or yeah there it's 212 it's kind of hard to measure that but it's a long way from 219 so that's why this is measuring a tighter you know a smaller diameter then you're then you're rifling so it's farther up the bullet than the spot that actually first touches the rifling just wanted to to bring that up and clarify it because I see comments sometimes where I think people are maybe assuming that incorrectly so all right so our bullets eating diet is set for the Sierras the way all these measurements are coming out I'll bet if I seat this Nosler it should be a little bit long I hope yep looks like it is actually maybe not that's two point two four eight two point two four six is our target I'm gonna go ahead and seat this whole first row and get a number and see whether we need to make any adjustment we've got a four nine a four eight and a four six so we are just a couple thousands long so I'm just gonna give this guy a little tweak let's try that setting but this is a whole lot closer than I expected no doubt about it two point two four six two point two four two so that one's a little on the short side guys two point two four three now let me throw on the Hornady bullet comparator and we'll compare our sierra versus Naza rounds all right one point eight seven seven is what i'm seeing with the with the sierra bullets at this two point two four six inch overall length so let's have a look yeah one point eight six three is the number I'm getting with the nozzles at this same overall length so is that 14 thousand s difference measuring by this so that's not bad I'm even go ahead and seat these last two in this row and then we'll switch over to the crimp I've been leaving the crimp dyed still set the same as it was in our last Mark 262 video and it's also the same setting we've been using on the Bob's bullets video pretty light but it's they're like these these case mouths are getting collapsed into the candle or just a touch so last mark 262 video we measured it and it was two or three thousandths different measurement right there at the case mouth than the little lower on the neck so that's yeah we're we're doing the same thing we did in last video and Arcana lure alignment looks good with the Nosler looks very nice so that's it I've got 20 more to seat and then we are ready for the range okay so in the last video we kicked things off by shooting a group with the mark 262 factory ammo to warm things up and do a baseline for that day I want to skip that this time and the reason is that in the last video several people in the comments section mentioned that they would like to see concentricity readings for that factory ammo I decided to take a little bit of our patreon money and buy a concentricity tester so that is on the way so I want to keep all of the you know mark 262 factory ammo we've got held back so that we can test it for that so our target is 100 yards this gun here has got an 18 inch wide okar moment barrel all of the other details about the gun will be down in the description we're going with pink dots today that I put a little Sharpie dot in the middle of and then outlined it's looking a little dusty I understand that I'm working on it I need a smaller aiming point than the one-inch dots I've been using provides so I don't know getting these guys centered has been an issue so I'm thinking maybe if I could find small squares and then put them on the target you know sideways for a diamond pattern that might be good I don't know let's get to shooting what we found recently here with this barrel is that the first couple groups with the cold gun are generally the best whether that has to do with me and my fatigue or the gun I think we're still trying to figure that out for certain but up today we're not going to shoot any warm-up shots at all gun is completely cold and I want to start with the Nosler bullet so 23.8 grains of CFE 223 with the Nosler is gonna be our first group so let's get going okay decent we'll start there with the Nosler man 2479 yeah okay 23.8 with the Sierra okay that looks like another good group but I'm having a hard time spotting our shot since I were shooting up in there the writing so let's go down yeah let's go down a minute and a half yeah that should be a little bit easier to spot okay back to the nozzle this is twenty four point one grains [Music] all right so I think I'm a big fat idiot and with the wrong way on my scope adjustment so now we're a foot high lovely that's just lovely we'll clean it up after this group screwed it up a little bit with that last shot but by god these nozzles are grouping pretty darn well I like it alright this time let's go down I don't know there's three minutes what did we go before a minute and a half bad on huh 24.1 with the Sierra all right we got some decent groups going next up twenty four point four grains with the Nosler hopefully the velocity ferry comes to visit this time Sierra are they all in there am i missing one if not by god that ought to break the half-inch barrier you know I would probably be upset about these low velocities if these groups weren't so freakin awesome you know I keep telling myself this is the way it was supposed to be like back in video one this is what we talked about was probably needing at least two videos per powder the first one just you know exploratory find out what sort of velocities we're gonna get and then maybe another one to push it a little bit farther so yeah I don't know back to Nasser 24.7 grains I'll tell you what the circle the circle I've got around the dots the black line around the dots is helping a lot the dot I put in the center is useless but the one around this around the edges I'm able to you know line up my four crosshairs and then get the four segments of the dot lined up well yeah basically I feel like I'm holding better with this dot pattern he needs a little bit more refinement but we're getting better all right 24.7 grains with the Sierra you know this would be a whole lot easier with about a half pound trigger in this guy do they make those for ARS you know three and a half pound this is a three and a half pound CMC trigger and it's an excellent trigger I've got three of them than they've done a pretty good job for me but when you get down to shooting groups like man sometimes they feel like ten pounds okay back over to the Nosler and what's our charge yep twenty five point zero grains okay so 2652 we're going to fall about a hundred feet per second short of our goal right that's what we've been seeing with the with the factory ammo is about twenty seven fifty twenty seven sixty I think something like that but I like how those standard deviation numbers are shrinking that six point one on the last group pleases me definitely so one last group to go here is twenty five point zero grains with the Sierra yeah I got to be honest with you those last couple groups my form wasn't exactly on point starting to get a little bit fatigued but they still weren't bad 26 89 feet per second with a nineteen point nine feet per second standard deviation there was one shot that was 27 21 and all of the others were down in the 2680 range so yeah I think we had one weird shot there on the on our last group with with the Sierras alright let's get back to the bench of measure out some of these groups I think we've got some good ones alright let's start out with a quick look at the brass and it will be very quick because there is nothing at all to show you look at our max charges those are really nice nice round primers no ejector swipes or anything at all that I could find nothing weird going on on the body of the cases so everything looks outstanding okay folks this is the best group this is the best target we've ever shot on this channel ever and it's not even close we've shot our fair share a half inch groups and we've shot a couple in the floors but we just get past the threes and went straight to the twos here brother by far my best group and then followed it up right next door with a 370 freaking beautiful just beautiful like I mentioned I think that guy was probably mean both of these last two groups could have been a touch tighter but I was starting to feel it cuz man when the groups are small and the concentration gets going and it's exhausting it really is trying to keep that hold and make sure that you're not screwing up the groups definitely takes concentration so velocities we missed the mark right we only got up to 26 89 with our Sierra and 26:52 with our Nosler I'm okay with that so we need another video with CF e 223 and what I probably need to do is take the velocity of every single shot we've got put it on a chart we can extrapolate out and see just how far we're probably going to need to go to hit our target and stuff like that that's problem that's how we'll open the next video yeah we'll push that crap to the next video we'll pick a couple more charged weights and shoot them and hopefully get to our velocity target with CF v 223 because I don't see any pressure signs that make me nervous about going farther hopefully our accuracy trend continues on up it was outstanding and and hopefully our standard deviation continues to tighten yeah this is the one I mentioned there was one shot in here that kind of screwed this one up but overall it seemed to be trending towards a tightening standard deviation and it definitely was down here alright thirties twenties teens and then BAM right there 6.1 that's a good number so hopefully that trend continues with both bullets I'll tell you what we'll do here's what we'll do we need to go hotter with CFE 223 and accurate 25 20 from video number two that's shot pretty well we didn't get a chance to try the Nosler bullet with it so maybe that's what we need to do we need to do kind of a clean up video where we shoot a little bit more 25 20 to verify our previous results and we go a little bit hotter with CFE 223 yeah I like that plan I'll tell you what while I was sitting here putting this video together you know doing the editing the number I came up with for the maximum overall length how I was saying it was 90,000 s different that doesn't sit right with me I want to test that again in the next video that seems crazy like these bullets are too similar to have that much difference you'd think that would be you know visually obvious but I don't know so I'll redo that in the next video and also so are you our sizing went fine you know just booked the shoulder a couple thousands and we still fed just fine no worries about function with a minimum sizing so I will continue to do that so I think that's where we'll leave this one tomorrow is going to be a Bob's bullets video it's actually going to be Bob's bullets versus Hornady little 55 grain Full Metal Jacket boat tail shootout with IMR 3031 so that'll be tomorrow so if you want to help support the channel come check me out at patreon.com slash reloading and i'll see you guys tomorrow

Channel: Johnny's Reloading Bench

Views: 38,537

Rating: 4.9446368 out of 5

Keywords: guns, shooting, reloading, 5.56x45mm NATO, .223 Remington

Id: ckj6_U-StX8

Length: 26min 42sec (1602 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 04 2017