Mike Rowe: College's Worthlessness & Multi-Millionaire Plumbers | Ep. 264

speaking of that kind of show I know that I've watched a ton of returning the favour' in prep for this and my wife watched Dirty Jobs driving to and from Los Angeles and San Francisco with a cat and the passenger seat and in a laptop let me just let me just ruminate on that image for a minute you got got a cat laptop wife Dirty Jobs contained space yeah fantastic at some points paying attention to the road hopefully while watching every episode of dirty jobs on DVD yeah which I'm sure is still somewhere in the house but when I was doing prep for the show watching Dirty Jobs or or something along those lines you had your hand down the business end of a sheep and I was I figured you probably weren't at that time thinking one day I'm gonna be a 1 Union doing voiceover work but in the meantime know I was actually coming from one Union to do I mean I've been coming here to this space for 21 years really yeah oh I didn't know that yeah I moved up to San Francisco well I guess it's not quite 21 years because I came up here right after 9/11 and and so that was 2001 and that was before Dirty Jobs but I was i've been impersonating a voiceover guy you know for 35 years so that so the business end of the sheep cervix came sometime between I don't even know what was in there yeah it's I mean once you're marking your days you know by various kinds of animal husbandry violations right you know like they're no more holidays left than my calendar is like oh yeah yeah October that's the time we castrated lambs with sheep I remember that that's funny that's literally the next thing I've got which is one of the most memorable episodes had to be when you're castrating sheep and the guy who's you know it's easier if you just bite it off that moment actually became a TEDTalk accidentally I gave a TED talk in 2008 and I went down there because I thought the the network asked me to go to say a few words at this conference that they were sponsoring so I was like well okay I can say a few words but I walked into a full-blown TED talk my picture was on the wall hanging there with something like lessons from the dirt written on it and then some you know a 20 minute rumination on the changing face of the modern-day proletariat visa vie the digital divide with Wow Micro right so it's like yeah that so I had three hours to put some kind of story together for for Ted I didn't I wasn't sure what Ted was to be honest but yeah that moment when after I had called I'd called the Humane Society to make sure I was doing it right because I that show man to make sure you were properly biting off oh no I didn't know I'd be biting them off I didn't know I mean in those days dirty jobs we there was a file this thick on one of my bosses desks filled with letters of complaints from what I called the the army of angry acronyms so everybody could was somebody else you know it could be could be OSHA could be PETA could be HSUS could be what see us Humane Society yeah right so I'm just a think about TV you know everybody watches it through their own lens and if you are in an organization then you have an agenda and your agenda becomes the most important thing right so everything you see everything around you either comports or fails to comport with your own version of morals and Dogma and the show like Dirty Jobs it was like like before the army of correctors really reared their collective heads which of course is where we're living today yeah good luck doing dirty jobs today well that's what that's why I podcast is called the way I heard it that's why my book is called the way I heard cappuccino that's why the cappuccino was involved the way I this is actually Thank You Ryan this is really the single best thing about doing voiceover yeah getting coffee brought to you you know you sit in a clean well-lighted place the temperature is controlled you sound more credible than you are and every so often people bring you a beverage yeah it's nice I mean you had sparkling water here I mean I probably shouldn't say that I mean your your image right now you're this blue-collar hero and it's like there's Perrier here at a cappuccino on the end of the table look it's not like I made either one of them that's as what was here and and my image to the extent that I have one I hope is rooted in the fact that I will accept with grace whatever beverage is brought to me by whomever at whatever time yeah didn't mean to throw the Holmes know what I mean I was gonna say that's not doing me any favors with all that I'm from Michigan so like you got it we talk in a certain way yeah Perrier is not in the vocabulary and cappuccino is also not in the butt but don't you think that that kind of cognitive dissonance is exactly what the country needs right now right right rather than rather than people completely embracing their own trope right you know I mean we're we seem so anxious as a country to put everybody into their own category so if you see a guy in a flannel shirt who you recently saw castrating lambs and crawling through sewers having a cappuccino well say wait a second something must be wrong here mmm he must be a fraud frankly because I mean nobody would crawl through a sewer and have a cappuccino right the cappuccino drinking is just CGI the rest of its real actually this is all CGI I'm not really here I've been gone for some time that explains why it was easy to book this yeah he's not really gonna be there speaking of which we we did this what like two years ago have more oh it's probably three or four years ago yeah and we did it here right it was here not in this room no in the one that burned down so you we had a fire here at one Union but it's better but better than ever back I'm just saying that if I if I start telling you a story that I told you before and if I remember it I will say something or you're surely your viewers will will hear about it that we'll get letters from acronyms yeah this is the department I don't even know what the acronym would be the Department of people who have already heard this effing story before yeah which one you know P H B yeah they're out there they're out there it's it so you've seen it too right like this giant sort of spasm of Correction where everybody all of the time now is armed with this thing and access like 99% of all the information in the world except that all the information in the world contradicts itself too so we are just completely obsessed with voicing an opinion offering proof that our opinion is correct offering backup from sources that may or may not be real real no one knows anything it's it's it's amazing and to my earlier point that was just starting to happen when Dirty Jobs exploded we were constantly finding ourselves answering questions from experts in every imaginable field every imaginable vocation you know all that business on the crab-boat was kind of interesting but technically what you're supposed to do and it's on the one hand it's interesting and it's good to be right on the other hand it's amazing it's just amazing the the absolute heft the tide the tide of correct corrective 'no Sal ittle scary because now we don't really know there's almost no wait well first of all there's no way to be right which is fine you don't know I don't have to be right but it's a little dangerous because I have to think now do I want to express this opinion because I might hear a lot from a lot of people that that it's unpopular and of course they would say well if you're hearing a lot then maybe you should change your thinking and maybe there's maybe there's something to that you know if I say I in fact I said a long time ago oh that's that's [ __ ] and someone goes hey this is me and my mentally disabled sister and like you know that it's not really nice and you should be more woke but I still like you and I like your show that's okay I can take that kind of correction but when I another time I said this guy was just having a complete spasm on the show and somebody wrote in and went how dare you there are people that can't help but have those and here's having spasms on purpose I mean that's a good point nobody schedules in you know a spasm in the midst of an otherwise hectic day I got a leave time right you know somewhere between 2:00 and 3:00 I like to have a good twitch yeah and get those warm up those letters people he said twitch copy written I know you do a lot of the these shows in one take I was just listening to you work doing the way I heard it coincidentally the the title of your new book are no coincidences not yet not coincidental it the title of your new book the way I heard it and I was like oh she's gonna do it all in one take and there was a couple little hey let me rerecord this let me record that but are you rehearsing what you've written before you get here no no no I write the stories on planes usually three or four months prior and really just to pass the time that's how the podcast started I was just looking for a way to compress time and and do something on planes aside from read the same books I keep rereading you know and so I just started writing and then we started throwing stories out there and people dug him and so I started writing more and then it became a thing but but no to answer your question I'm familiar with the stories because I wrote them but I don't it's it's the problem with rehearsing anything is that the the minute you do it a second time it's a performance and that's great if you're making a movie or we're selling a performance and to some degree you know the books are intentional things podcasts are deliberate things you don't want to completely Forrest Gump your way through it but but I think the thing that's excuse me how dare you that man is mentally uh you know what any twitched several times poor Forrest did this was my magic shoes it's a great moment I'm so the business I look at it like this if if authenticity is really the thing that's for sale mm-hmm then the question becomes what things do we do to get in the way of an authentic moment with our audience and typically in production its production itself that gets in the way it's the placement of the camera it's the placement of the mic it's plane flies over the tape gets busted it's makeup you know when I see newscasters slathering on the makeup and then sitting down to pretend that they're not reading a prompter when they clearly are all of those things make me trust you less and so interesting yeah it's it's I mean it's it's unintentional but I think I think we've just been fed such a colossal heaping helping of bullcrap that the the reptilian part of our brain is looking for for signs of truth and signs of artifice which is why the cognitive dissonance with a cappuccino Dirty Jobs guys kind of jarring because it makes you go well which one of those things is real is he a guy that drinks Perry an cappuccino and narrates stuff or is he a guy who actually goes out there and truly seems to believe that his foundation exists for a genuine purpose etc etc but I think it's the difference between skepticism and cynicism we ought to be skeptical of things that make us look twice we should always look twice but we've just become utterly cynical now with everything yeah I can't disagree with that at all mostly because I don't want to get a letter but also because you're right I mean there there's I'd like to think of myself as skeptical and I look at things and I investigate things and I want to get the truth and I want to examine how our brain tricks us but at the same time it seems like every time I have a guest on the show someone will say oh well you know if you think that schmuck had something to say you've got to find somebody else or you you know you should fact check this and have you looked into his charity and how much of his money is he's skimming off the top and it's like I don't know I can't you can't move you can't do anything and that's why I think right now it's it makes your work even more interesting because you do have like a feel-good show with returning the favor where you're giving money away to people that theoretically really deserve it and doing a lot of that i zoom in one take oh yeah yeah look I mean that's a that's very important and it was a it was a dirty jobs lesson I think there may be the second season of dirty jobs I was done it was it was so hard and it was so dangerous but mostly making it was such a pain in the ass because we were still the production company and the people involved were all still bringing with them the inertia of their last gig and you know all most TV production is the same very very deliberate placed careful rehearsed I didn't want that I wanted I wanted a single I didn't want to do second takes for one thing and and I also wanted to chronicle the making of the show and that's that that's a warts-and-all thing and that's that's hard for a network or a production company to agree to happily we kind of compromised the first season the numbers were good enough so that I was able to say if we don't bring in a documentary camera to essentially you know chronicle the making of the show and if we don't cut that in to the next season so we can see the crew and see the business of doing it and I don't want to do it anymore and and so they said okay and that that's become you know I mean obviously breaking the fourth wall is something everybody talks about but we never broke the fourth wall we just ignored it and that's what we're doing returning the favor - and that's why I'm able to do such an a sickening ly sweet saccharine show about bloody do-gooders right on the one hand I really do admire these people and I'm glad they're out there better than me making the world in this place but but I don't I'm not really comfortable building statues to them and turning them into heroes and venerating them you know so but at the same time I want you to know that the people I meet on this show we look at very very carefully and answer a really simple question are they better or nicer than me it's not a very high bar but the people we met by and large are so the trick that becomes how do you interact with these people how do you give them money ha how can you how can you make it less precious and the answer is to not rehearse let the production company do what they do but then I come in let the producers bring me up to speed on camera let me meet the people for real the first time capture all that on camera and and cut cut the warts and all reality of making the show into the finished product that to me really was the promise of reality TV now we totally screwed up now it's all scripted it's it's it's as scripted it is as scripted as an episode of friends and if somebody tells you differently they're lying that makes sense yeah and you can tell that Dirty Jobs returning the favor those can't be scripted I mean one one thing who's gonna go hey refill the dump truck full of tilapia poop and dump it out again and make sure it splashes on us yeah not gonna happen or there was one episode where this sewer rat the size of like a dog runs across your foot which was I thought was really funny because you actually uh and I'm like you're you're in a sewer two episodes prior you're in a tilapia I don't know hole full of poo and this little well maybe this dog sized rat runs across your foot and that's what causes you to lose the veneer of micro cool well that actually just opened a Pandora's box of insanity on all kinds of levels when that the rat ran across my foot after it jumped off my shoulder landed in my crotch okay sent me leaping into the air hitting my head on the roof of the sewer and then driving me face-first into a river of crap and when I pushed myself up and spit something out of my mouth that never should have been there my my exact words were holy crap now the censors standards and practices at the network we're like you can't say crap like guys it's actually crap I'm covered in [ __ ] surely you know but the problem was I got all kinds of letters from people who thought I said holy [ __ ] ya know because they bleeped crap so suddenly I'm in my boss's office having this existential argument over the right thing to say when you fall face-first into a river of [ __ ] and I actually had they had a list of words you're allowed to say you know it's effluvium feces I'm gonna yell holy feces that's why you talk like that right right like that not talk like that well in the end effluvium I started calling it poo and they were like well that's just absurd I'm like well of course it's absurd but I want I want the world to know I'm calling feces poo because if I call it crap you'll bleep it and then I get angry letters from viewers who think I'm using bad language my kid watches the show so you know so it's it's it's all it's all so odd and fragile and precious and and and brands today are in the fight of their life and and producers are in the fight of their life and promotional people and marketers they're in the fight of their life they're all out there it's incredibly noisy and they all want something authentic but so often they get in their own way yeah and basically doom they they doom their own quest it's it's it's a heck of a thing I guess next time you fall face-first in crap you should just who's got lamb gonads I got to watch this taste out of my mouth the world that story is to stay out of the sewer and go and you make a point and you know yeah then come and narrate something yes exactly it's easier yeah does anybody have a crap proof facemask that I can wear for this this next gig the few good shows are pretty rare these days though like returning the favor stands out pretty uniquely in that no one's competing for the money there it's not Shark Tank or something like that they don't have to impress you necessarily that it just sort of happens it's got to be hard to get all these small-town people usually together and it's like keep a secret from the nicest person one of the nicest people in your town everybody else get in on it and make sure nobody texts or puts it in a thread when she wonders where everyone is lie to them I don't know how do you I mean who orchestrates all that it happens in a couple different ways the first thing that happens is a small crew goes in under the auspices of making a digital documentary course or some modest thing and you know most of the people we feature on the show are involved in you know some kind of altruistic effort so they they want the press and so they'll sit down and they'll talk to these people while that's happening other things are going on regarding the reveal or the surprise I haven't shown up yet I don't show up until I I literally spend six hours with these people the advanced crew is gone and they've set up some kind of surprise I go in and I play it exactly as it lies if they know me that's that's fine most of them do at this point some of them think I'm my own dirty jobs' a my own somebody's got to do it and some people have have just figured it out they're like oh my god is this returning the favor and this is really funny you know a few years ago yes but we're not returning one to you sorry well I mean a couple of years ago we would mean it would be a disaster and production would stop and everyone would huddle around and they'd try to figure out what to do today I just say yeah yeah as a matter of fact it's good for you you figured it out now what are we gonna do because we still have to shoot the show and script and so and so that gets cut into the show and and it's really not a disaster at all it simply means that if you really surprise somebody really get him totally out of the blue it's because they didn't know it was Christmas morning but if they know it's Christmas morning it simply means they don't know what's under the tree and they won't until you give it to them and so it's still you know we're not really there to document Christmas morning we're there because the people we're introducing you to our people that we think you should know the people who are doing something cool in their neighborhood and because it's on Facebook you you don't have the same weight of network oversight and and fear frankly you know Extreme Home Makeover was a 60 minute show and that thing man it had to run in a very specific way there were hundreds of people on that crew jeez I'm not even I mean there were hundreds I was up in Maine one time fishing for uh slime eels it's a great episode of dirty jobs and we've been out for a couple of days and we came back in on the boats and coincidentally in this same little small town Extreme Home Makeover was there like building a house and they were all like oh god come over and have lunch with us say hello ins can I bring the crew and they're like yeah well how many are there I'm like six like six of course bring them they had close to 300 oh my head so like you said about contractors people working on a house you're talking about you know multiple live vans cuz they shoot it like it's live to tape and you know an episode of that thing probably pick it cost millions to shoot oh that's crazy in an episode of dirty jobs six dudes four with cameras out in the world not doing a second take how much did that cost are you allowed to say do you know sure I mean at the time an hour of Dirty Jobs would probably cost about 350 to 400 thousand dollar house every yeah right so that's amazing so it's like a factor of 10 or something like right and then the shows were equally rated yeah and wonder they likes you so much well it's just you know I mean I got a little expensive there toward the end but you're gonna have to call it someone's got to do it I'm sorry but no it's it's a what happens with shows you know they start small they're doomed to fail they find an audience everybody swoops in to make them bigger and better and then they get so expensive and top-heavy that they collapse under their own weight well was it was it kind of a thing where you go I kind of want to keep doing this but not really that much and they're like we'll give you this much this and then eventually you just go if I'm gonna come in for another talapia dump truck poop show you got to pay me this much and they go you know what we're on the line well I mean things go off the rails for a lot of different reasons in my case it really wasn't about the money the money was involved he we went for eight seasons and and and there's a it's like an ad campaign you know even ad campaigns that work advertising agencies getting nervous or they don't change it because if there's no need to change a thing then why do you exist what are you doing right and so I had I had 10 executive producers on Dirty Jobs over eight seasons that's hell yeah that's how much churn there is it's more than one per season for those that's right in the math and every time somebody comes in they kind of want to put their you know their stamp on yeah and and there was nothing to stamp on dirty jobs it wasn't a show it was it was the chronicling of a day on a farm you know in a tilapia pond on a bridge right it wasn't there was no casting there was no pre-production there's certainly no script and there was no second take so it's very little you can do as an executive except what finally happened at the end when they they just wanted to ramp it up really ramp it up and I didn't want to ramp it up Dirty Jobs was a show that featured people you'd never heard of doing things you didn't know people did in towns you can't find on a map and so I didn't want to do a very special episode in the sewer with John Stamos or Paris Hilton I just I just didn't that was real that was a real pigeons weren't they it was all real I mean we want you like cleaning up in New York City after New Year's I'm like look everybody knows what that looks like it's just it's New York City you know would it be more interested that conversation was going on and you know and we settled on international like let's just see what it looks like overseas so I went to Australia for a month and those episodes were terrific but again I Dirty Jobs was supposed to be and it was at its best a celebration of American workers doing what Americans do without artifice or pretense you know and and I'm really proud of it that it started as a tribute to my pop and it finished looking a lot like it did when it started we went all 50 states we did 300 jobs and it felt like a good time to say okay maybe yeah there was no like jump the shark like oh that episode where Tom Arnold and micro are cleaning out garbage trucks or cement trucks is really that was no my fame you know what I did I literally jumped a shark during Shark Week on dirty jobs we we were doing net cropsey's in autopsies on sharks basically and we had a nine-foot grey shark down at a taxidermy place down in South Florida somewhere and we were you know we were trying to the way it works is you you catch a shark and this place makes a big fiberglass mold of it and then when you catch the same basic shark you can throw it back that's good right and so it's it was actually a really big idea and I wanted to profile it because it was like you know Shark Week yeah we wanted to do something that was a great dirty job but at the same time something that had some decent environmental right you know heft to a shark week we're killing a bunch of sharks and putting them on the wall it's just about getting a letter from PETA talk about cognitive dissonance but you do have to kill one in order to make the mold and when you make the mold you have to get you have to get the shark out of the mold and that involves tearing it in half and their chains involved in tractors and I mean it's just an ungodly mess and what was left of a shark was at my feet and I looked at the crew and we all kind of looked at each other we're like you know something this is just not gonna it's not gonna really play in the heartland and I just backed up and did the only thing I could which was get a good running start and jump over the shark which we filmed in high speed and cut into the promo they looked pretty terrific so yeah I'm proud to say I did I did jump a shark at a time when I felt like there was simply nothing else to do yeah jump in sharks with John Stamos and Mike Rowe it's a very special episode stay with us it's gonna be great your your book the way I heard it your parents the some of the stories in there about your parents genius-level reframing techniques I need to learn this stuff you met my son in there Jaden the neighbors came to show off hundreds of photos from Yosemite you're you're just like when are we going and your parents are like isn't that sad what are they doing here what's the psychology here we didn't have a lot of money that much at all my dad taught public school my mom wasn't working at that point she was raising three kids what we had was access to about 80 acres we didn't own it we had a couple acres on a small farm on a hill in Baltimore County living next to my my grandfather and and so we were isolated you know I mean obviously I was in contact with kids at school I certainly didn't feel poor and the reason I didn't feel poor is because my parents figured out a way to make me feel sorry for people with money Envy the rich you know is is not you know we we pitied the rich because I'm the story I tell starts with me watching an Orioles game I'm like eight or nine and a commercial comes on for Ocean City Maryland the boardwalk you know all these amusement rides and then all these kids my age and they're boys and girls are holding hands and eating cotton candy and the brides I'm there I'd never seen rides before there was a roller coaster called the wild mouse and everybody on the wild mouse looked like they were having such a great time and my parents are sitting behind me watching the same ad during the Orioles game and they see me watching the ad and so they would start these conversations just loud enough for me to hear but not directed to me converse that would have been too obvious oh yeah and they were very very sly about it but it was like gosh John look at those look at those kids on that roller coaster isn't it isn't it sad that kids have to stand in line to be entertained like that like dad would be like oh they look look like gonna puke on each other Peggy look at that poor kid and I'm listening to them and I'm looking at the ad and I'm like okay I guess it is I guess I don't know it looks kind of fun but then they would just keep going with you know you know the course they don't have a big woods behind to go back and and be entertained it was the same thing with our neighbors right they they come back from Yosemite with pictures as they're driving off gosh isn't it it isn't sad that people have to fly all over the country you know to have fun I mean just to go for a walk in the forest we have one right there I never I never had any new clothes I had two cousins who were both bigger than me you know so every time there's like a fashion conversation or you know his talk of the mall it's like isn't it isn't it sad these kids have to walk around in these jeans that aren't broken in you know tonight to not have nice worn comfortable yeah you know it's pretty bad it's pretty bad so yeah that that that went on for years yeah and at what point were you like I don't really pity the people that are wearing the latest fashions in school maybe it's me who's the sucker here yeah like 40 years old yeah it's it recently like last Thursday it became clear there are still times in my life where I'm like wait a minute that that's not even true and I'll call my mom and she's like oh you you believed that even then they told me that carryout food you know was for families whose mothers couldn't cook yeah and and that movies were for people you know for kids who couldn't read it's really it was it was ingenious and and it it not only worked in the short term it it it inspired in me a level of superiority I'm sure arrogance though is completely unfounded but but it but it allowed me to be in on the joke yeah you know which I still to this day is a is a metaphor I use I'm not sure what it means entirely but but it just allows you to be comfortable mhm you know with your own circumstances whatever they are and and they were great at that it was actually my brothers to answer your question who who ratted them out oh yeah that makes because I was on the front line of it but they they saw more you know they were like dude we've we've been to movies they're amazing yeah you're gonna want to see one Mike if you seen Batman no Timmy read and one day I'll teach you I just don't have time right now and besides costumes are for girls yeah so right now as of December 2018 there's about 7 million job openings in the u.s. 7.3 7.3 if we're counting which we are not enough qualified workers to fill to fill these up and I got a haircut a long time ago as you can tell and the hair stylist her husband's a roofer and I said oh how's business it's really hot outside and she's like actually that's part of the problem she works pretty slowly and it's really hot out and you know he really needs help and I said well there's there's a lot of people who don't have jobs and she's like nobody will take this job nobody wants to stand on the roof and in the hot Sun he goes through a new person once a month he'll hire someone that lasts about four days they don't show up on Friday he's got to finish the job himself that's like the story this guy's life and on the other side college is super expensive now people are having trouble getting jobs after they graduate I was one of those people I went to go get a job at Best Buy and they were like you can sell CDs with Norman he's 15 his mom just dropped him off he's freshman in high school I was like I got a four year degree income in Econ from Michigan I'm I am above this kind of work and they went great what do you want to start on Monday and you know next to Britney Spears it's fine you know that that was that was graduation so I'm wondering where do you what do you think about free tuition for everybody you know that's kind of the solution that people are posing now I've got my own opinion on it but I think I can probably guess what yours is but I'm curious I look of all the four-letter words that start with an F that free has got to be the most alarming mm-hmm because I've never I've never found anything that is yeah I just I mean it gets political fast yeah everything does these days because everything is binary but but part of what frustrates me in a very general way with the way a lot of people think who are coming out of school right now is that they're really and truly is such a thing as fill in the blank free blank you know they what's the old expressing as a free lunch and there's certainly no such thing as a free education and if anybody were to seriously want to talk about it then my first comment would be okay just so we understand the professors have waived their salaries the administrative staff has waived their salaries the football coach has waived their salaries the custodians all the people who take care of the institution none of these people are being paid because they are working for free therefore I can attend and not pay them since nobody anywhere is paying anybody that's what free is if you mean a version of free that involves somebody else paying instead of you that's not free mm-hmm so you know the first thing that I would try to do if I were really getting sucked into a political diatribe on what to do about the rising cost of tuition is I would say set the table properly and let's not use words that mean something other than what they truly mean or it let's let's at least agree to some shared definitions otherwise we're just gonna talk past each other mm-hmm yeah I think first something like stem or some job that's really in demand but even then you got to pay it back like I'll happily send you to plumbing school if I'm gonna get a return then it's an investment right it's not a donation to your English degree or your anthropology degree well you also have to look at why College got as expensive as it is and you have to and and this this shouldn't be political but if you go back to 1980 82 when I graduated from a community college it took a year or two off and I went back to a university but in 1982 let me say it this way the cost of two years at a community college and two years at a university for me was just under eleven thousand dollars the exact same degrees today an A and a BS from the exact same places are just under 90 so Wow I'll say like this nothing since 1982 has increased in cost faster than the cost of a four-year degree health care not real-estate not food not energy nothing that's saying a lot nothing so you can't just look at that as some do and say well that just proves how important it is and and how critical and investment it is because that's what we've been sold right we ran sold yeah it's not an education it's not a commodity it's an investment okay so why did the investment increase exponentially and I'm not an economist by any stretch but I think the biggest reason is because we embarked as a society on a concerted effort to tell a generation that the best path for the most people was a four-year degree which is also the most expensive path and then we started showing them pictures of people who didn't get a four-year degree who were laboring in all kinds of other vocations that looked like some kind of consolation prize yeah the old work smart not hard that thing was welding or something yeah no that that literally was one of the first posters in a PR campaign for the big push for college it was in my guidance counselor's office in 1979 you know work smart not hard is what it said a picture of a graduate standing next to a guy holding a wrench looking like he won the booby prize so the the tropes bromides and platitudes fueled the belief that if you didn't get a four-year degree you were screwed so it's very different you know college higher education did need a PR campaign and it got one unfortunately it came at the expense of all other forms of education and so we turned all of these other pursuits into cautionary tales then we freed up a limitless supply of money and then we put an incredible amount of pressure on kids to borrow whatever it took get the magical paper that would ensure their happiness so when people say Mike why did college get so expensive so fast I say that for a lot of reasons but the big thing behind it was this societal push that gave college permission to charge whatever they wanted and so they have and because it's couched as an investment we just keep borrowing more and more and more and it's amazing what comes back to me when I make this argument you know people will sum it up and basically conclude that I'm anti for education or anti college and I'm not but I am anti this is so important that we can charge whatever we want that's just bull crap and that's what we've done and look it's one thing not to be able to find a job it's one thing not to be sure what you want to do with the rest of your life but to be unsure and untrained and in debt it's five or six figures very very very difficult for people to crawl out of that hole it's especially because it's really not a function of there not being any jobs it's a function of not having enough qualified people to fill jobs that already exists right so the the roofer who doesn't want to hire somebody who's off the books and can't find somebody who'll do the job we're building a house pretty soon and there's a my wife's brother built a house and he was saying the drywall guy can't even find somebody who's gonna hold up the drywall he's offering like 50 bucks plus an hour I think yeah and he just can't find anybody to do it you don't need that much special training it's just that there's a perception issue where people go well I'm I went to college I'm not gonna put up drywall I'm waiting I'm waiting yeah where's my magic job right no I paid my dues they punched my ticket now I'm ready to you know people just they seem to have stopped looking at jobs as rungs on a ladder and started looking at all of the rungs as a destination and concluded that well just because one rung is down here and the other wrong is up there doesn't mean there should be a difference in pay of course there should you know your buddy who has a roofing company didn't always have a roofing company he started roofing he started working in the Sun and then he got good at it and then he moved up you know this idea of of working in a workforce where there's no mobility it's just not true but it also informs a lot of the misperception I think that that makes people look at jobs in this way this this just happened I don't know if you saw this article it's amazing it's an article in last month's Atlantic and it's called welding won't make you rich and that's one of the examples I have that's definitely not true well yeah I mean well hundreds of people came to my Facebook page and said Mike are you gonna are you gonna comment on this and I'm not I mean it's a big article it's almost 3,000 words long but I read it I read it a couple of times and it's it's fascinating and so I not only commented on it I I wrote 3,000 words going paragraph by paragraph explaining as politely as I could why the author may have gotten his head up his ass and and it was amazing right Facebook it's a 6,000 word post nobody's gonna read this right I mean you know on Facebook if he puts up with you three or four in two words that people it's not going to long didn't read this thing was shared over 10,000 times and reached 3,000 people not because I'm such a swell writer or so engaging but because people are desperate to have this conversation and and they want a rational back-and-forth because a couple of years ago articles began to appear saying meet the hundred and fifty thousand dollar welder and people started realizing that you could actually make a lot of money welding well the guy that wrote this article basically said wait a minute the people who make that kind of money are at the top of the profession you're you're not gonna make that kind of money I'm like what is what in the world is the point of your argument there are lots of actors who don't make what Brad Pitt makes you know there lots of writers who don't make what James Patterson makes including the guy who wrote this article but the country is not suffering from a belief that everybody who welds make six figures they're suffering from a misperception that nobody is prospering and that there's only one kind of welding and people Google welder salary and see forty one thousand five hundred dollars okay so that's it but that's so fundamentally wrong and mistaken you know we were just talking about writing books ninety-five percent of the books and Barnes & Noble sell less than five thousand copy yeah the entire industry is propped up by the bestsellers the podcast industry exists because of about twenty podcasts that are pulling the Train mm-hmm you're as among them I'm sure yeah I hope so so you know so in this binary world where everything is black or white or this or that blue collar white collar good bad right wrong smart stupid in comes a guy that says nope welding won't make you rich and you know he goes to a to a town to meet a kid who tried to weld and it didn't work out for him now he was also a kid who was divorced at twenty-one trying to raise two kids and living in his mother's basement now could those circumstances have had anything at all to do with you know the proximate cause of his inevitable failure I I don't know but it's never as simple as anybody makes it out to be including me what about the idea and I think I touched on this the last time we talked but this is something that I hate this this trope this bromide follow your passion it's the worst advice I've ever heard it gets people now it's just a rampant industry like hey you don't like your job sign up from my master mighdal it's you had a flip house sign from a master man I'll teach you how to be an online influencer this micro guys making tons of money writing phase writer posts that people probably only read the headline is charities make hand over fist this guy's take my master class that's right master yeah you don't have one of those yet nope no well I mean I'm giving it right now this is it everybody welcome to my mess where do you have to get in your life when you can look well you can seriously look earnestly into the and say it the time has come for me to disgorge all of the information in my enormous brain I am it's gonna take a while because I'm very smart but you bought a ticket so sit down and relax what are you kidding me how do you how do people do that I don't know they get a big check and they're like alright I gotta make this look good look so that that might have sounded a little holier than now make no mistake I get accused of selling out every every month and and I I have no defense of course I sold out wood I sold out in 1989 when I took my first job at QVC I was literally selling things in the middle of the night I sold out before I had anything to do bargain yeah you know it's it's just amazing you know we we give so much more credence to the struggling or starving artists than we do somebody who has actually succeeded in some financial way we're so suspicious I'd have more credibility as a podcaster if I was broke I thinks I think so well you know what the only sensible thing for you to do with your brand-new family is to give all your money away and and watch those numbers go through the roof the roof looks so easy the roof that you're trying to get fixed yes the roof that I don't have because I'm broke now yeah yeah I think you say take your passion with you but I think a lot of people go yeah that sounds really good and then they they don't do that they don't know what that means no it's kind of like you know stay the course persistence you know yeah it's great staying the course is terrific advice if you're going in the right direction following your passion is terrific advice if the passion is taking you to a place where opportunity and your own set of skills will be able to coexist but follow your passion as a bromide is precisely what 98% of the people do who audition for American Idol they follow their passion and then at 20 22 years of age they realized for the very first time in their life that they can't sing at all not even a little you know and and they learn this on national television and they're lined up thousands of people who have been told throughout the totality of their short lives that if you believe something deeply enough and if you want something bad enough and if you truly embrace the essence of persistence and your passion let your passion lead you I mean Beyonce said that very thing as she received a Grammy just stick with it well I mean how can you give that kind of advice to someone you've never known how can you even talk that way to somebody until you at least have an understanding of who they think they are and what they think they want that's a good point yeah stick with it I mean not you you're you're never gonna make it you have no talent but you you should stick with it because I see something as long as it well maybe but I'm not sure but wait wait where just give me the grand it's insane that's tonight I'm very busy and I have to get to my master class so follow your passion and we'll check back look it's but again in a binary world people watch your podcast they hear Mike say don't follow your passion and they go you know what would it kill joy what a schmuck who is he you know well easy for him to say he's the Dirty Jobs guy right everybody wants that job yeah yeah well help yourself but look I don't say don't follow your passion I say never follow your passion but always bring it with you because passion isn't the enemy it's just not the thing you want pulling the Train passion is something that most all of the dirty-jobbers that I met possessed in spades now they just weren't doing anything that looked aspirational so it was confusing it's back to the cognitive dissonance of a guy in a plaid shirt sipping a cappuccino that doesn't make sense well guess what neither does a septic tank cleaner worth a million dollars who has multiple trucks that guy had a million dollar business surprise me actually there were I actually counted him up once I could be wrong by a couple but I put over 40 people that we featured on Dirty Jobs as multimillionaires we never talked about it because the show wasn't really about money it was about work and good humor and skill but when you find somebody who's prosperous who doesn't look prosperous you know it didn't used to be a disconnect but today it is we need everything to line up in order for our brains to believe it and even then mm-hmm even then we're cynical right so you know the first great lesson from Dirty Jobs was these people are passionate but they don't look like they should be so what do they know that we don't and the first in enduring lesson to come out of that was well you don't you don't have to follow your passion in order to be passionate it's it's kind of like I think of it in terms of a dream job that's still a trope that people have to know yeah that it goes back to college what do you have to do to get your dream job what do you have to do to have real job satisfaction if that's the question a lot of kids today will say well the first thing I have to do is identify the thing that's gonna make me happy at age 17 or whatever you go do whatever whatever I have to identify the proximate cause of my happiness then I have to get the paper that will allow me to pursue that thing first I need to get the money that will allow me to pay for the paper and then I need to go through X years here X years here blah blah blah and so forth and so on it's exactly backwards right what we're really seeing our people going through a process where their passion leads them and they're their hopes lead them to the dream job and when they get their dream job now they have permission to be happy it's really not so different than the idea of a soulmate you know the idea that there's one person on the planet and if you can find him or her then then you'll be happy now how do you how do you do that well here's the plan you go on tinder you got you swipe left you swipe right you got the snapchat you got I don't even know what they've got anymore but you know you do whatever you have to do how do you meet people you I mean I you have a significant other at this point huh yeah how did you meet Don tender oh the old-fashioned way yeah you know it was inappropriate business relationship yeah yeah well I had to avoid this lawsuit so what we're dating now essentially held up now it's I mean look maybe it's a clunky analogy maybe maybe romance is different than vocational satisfaction however if you if you confuse the cause with the symptom as I believe we've managed to do in a thousand different ways then we are going to be led by something other than practicality opportunity and common sense we're going to be led by hopes dreams desire and passion and those things are too important to be without but too fickle to follow around that's for damn sure yeah I think most people meet their soulmate I don't know within a few miles of their house what are the odds of that well most people meet their soulmate and initially determine them to be a pain in the ass you know it's not like people are walking around with a soulmate sign you know oh good point and it's the the movies will tell us that you know the popular tropes will tell us that but look it's kind of a fact that that arranged marriages are more successful than unarranged marriages that that is a weird sort of inconvenient truth for a lot of people who are believed strongly in love being the only thing that matters or whatever well take the religion out of it take take all of it out of it if you're simply charged with being happy you know you want to be happy but here the cards we're giving you you know this is the job you're going to have this is the mate you're going to have now I'm not advocating for this the sounds dystopian and and and super creamy but if the goal is to be happy a lot of people are gonna figure out how to be happy with the job they have and the person they have and they're gonna play the cards they got it's you know the cards you get don't determine the outcome of the game the player does yeah my wife's doing a good job being being happy with what she's stuck with now you know she seems happy there she is out there on the other side of the glass taking care of Jaden that's right your young son man you've got it figured out you really you bring your wife and your infant to work day yeah that's right yeah it's a whole he's got to learn the business cattle in the family business you got any pets we have cat no hair I can't believe you didn't bring your hairless cat I know he just he likes to run around is it like mr. bigglesworth it yeah like a gray version of mr. bigglesworth oh yeah he feels like a shorn scrotum listen man it's so funny you bring that up can I tell you a story yeah yeah listen any story that starts in a free associative way inspired with the word shorn and scrotum yeah there's going to end badly yeah yeah let's do it no let's not do oh you don't want it okay no no I mean you know what if we weren't recording this on camera next time I'd show you something I'd show you something that would inspire a permanent facial tic how do how do we I know you give work ethic scholarships right because we uh we reward athletic talent we reward academic we reward need you reward work ethic which seems like it's probably a pretty good idea how do you develop work ethic in people though how do you you can't do it you can't do it all you you can talk about it I mean you have to talk about it you have to try and test for it you know and what I found is just simply simply putting it into the mix is fascinating some people really appreciate it other people man it just it just really pisses them off did we talk about this last time the sweat pledge I don't think so part of our work ethic scholarship requires people to sign a sweat pledge a sweat pledge is a thing I wrote eight years ago after some beer twelve points that basically I believe would help any we do well on the job and also I believe any employer would absolutely love to have it was just it was just like a statement of purpose right it stands for skills and work ethic aren't taboo I sweat you know it's like number one I believe I've won the greatest lottery of all time I'm alive I walk the earth I live in America above all things I'm grateful mm-hmm it's very very very very difficult to really feel sorry for yourself and feel grateful at the same time you know and so hey I have a brief explanation as to why I wrote all these and I did it mostly to amuse myself but ultimately I just thought well among the other things I ask people to do who apply for the scholarship is I want you to sign the thing I signed it I want you to sign it and if you don't agree with everything on here that's totally cool don't sign it and don't apply for a work ethic scholarship go get a Scholastic scholarship part of the reason I don't look at grades is because I'm I'm more interested in a kids attendance record that I'm interesting I wanted you know I asked for references III asked I asked for a video it doesn't have to be you know just use your phone but hold up the video and make a case for yourself you know I want an essay I don't care about your spelling or your syntax but I I want to hear what you think about the nature of showing up early and staying late and learning a skill that's in demand those are the things my scholarship tries to reward or at least encourage so no you can't look into the eyes of an applicant and and see their soul or weigh and measure their their work ethic but you can you can call your scholarship a work ethic scholarship and you can ask people to do things that other scholarship funds don't do what's interesting about this is it happens every year the parents will write me and say you know how can you ask my son to sign this number six makes people crazy I believe that my say he is my responsibility I understand that being in compliance does not necessarily mean I'm out of danger they're like my kids not signing that like why not well because because his safety can't be his responsibility his Safety's the responsibility of the person who hires him and I mean look it's a it's a fascinating conversation and I have it every month with somebody who's disgruntled but what's funny really is that the ultimate answer to any complaint arising from any of our attempts to reward work ethics to simply say look man it is entirely possible this particular pile of free money is not for you maybe free yeah wait well and in this case it's pretty close to it what do you have to do to apply for one of these scholarships you got to make a case for yourself you got to sign a sweat pledge you have to jump through some hoops so in that sense it's not free but look it's the only thing I mean my objective with the scholarship fund is not to simply help people who who prove they're worthy of assistance it's to help people who prove they're worthy of assistance who then allow me to tell their story because that's the only thing that really gets people so that nobody listens to me anymore I mean I can make a bunch of noise and I can hang it you know like I can tell stories and whatnot but I was gonna say the podcast is a huge hit well thanks you've got this book the way I heard it the podcast yeah well you know it's it's all of the piece you know I I didn't think about this till the other day but a lot of the stories that I wrote in the book and a lot of the stories that are on the podcast actually come out of the sweat pledge their stories about people who who lived in a way that I often admire some sometimes it's the exact opposite but but in general you know I'm trying to take a lesson both in the book and the podcast from the late great Paul Harvey who did a radio show called the rest of the story and this is the same model it's different it's in my you know it's me Paul you know told shorter biographical mysteries these are more biographical historical ruminations you know but but it's the same basic idea tell stories of people who are interesting and and try and tell them in an interesting way do you I lost my I feel that way all the time yeah it's like you skip around in the notes you're like yeah we kind of covered that there's a great Steven Wright comment he says you ever you ever lean back too far on your chair just a little bit too far and you're going back and then you catch yourself and then that feeling I feel like that all the time it's a great it's gotta be it it's not a good way to live it's not exhausting there's was there ever a dirty job or anything that you wanted to do the the producers were like no way this is you're just gonna get ground up into little pieces or you know it's no these businesses are crooked or something like that no I mean it was it was really the other way they were they were uh Mike you know are you sure you need a parachute to jump out of a plane I mean maybe maybe maybe you don't what if you just jumped out of a plane and like landed in a net or something you know like no maybe not fellows I always wanted to go into a rendering operation what is that a rendering operation is a factory of sorts where you would turn say a dead cow into chicken feed if they don't call those slaughterhouses anymore no slaughterhouses and killing floors are places where the dead cow where the cow is made dead and then turned into food rendering operations are they'll show up at the farm to pick up the dead animal and then take the dead animal back and then turn it into something very much like a milkshake and then like freeze dry it and then sell it as various kinds of food as a cow it could literally be a milkshake it's just not one you'd want to know it's it's it's the worst it's the most disappointing milkshake in the world yeah you know you you literally stick a hose an incision under the skin and inflate it so the skin separates from the meat Wow and then you skin it and then you winch it up on a giant thing and that's dropped into a hopper with these giant spinning blades and the milkshake that comes out is ultimately dried and that's how you get a lot of chicken food very difficult to get into a rendering factory because a lot of them are mobbed up there were at least knob so owned by like the Mafia you know there's if you follow many of them back that's a gross generalization my apologies to those in your audience who come from a long generation of renderers who are not who have taken Amish you can send a letter of complaint directly to me over my Facebook page but um no we it took five or six seasons before somebody reached out and invited us to come in and so that's something that I wanted to do and the network saw the footage and they were just horrified just just beside themselves but it was really important for me to do it because I'm up to my neck and farming issues and I think it's really important that people understand where their food comes from and where it goes and how you know hakuna matata cycle of life and all of that rendering is a big a big big part of that it's hard to watch and you you need a Gallo's sense of humor to do it but it's a it's terrific did you did that change the way you eat it all over he's kind of like yep this is how it's made nothing has ever changed the way I eat long-term everything changed the way I hate short term no more tilapia next month you know what I I was off to Latvia for a while but I order it now all the time and I feel bad because apparently that episode didn't do any favours to that particular industry man but I worked on a slime line in Alaska for a while and what's that slime line is just you know it's a it's a fish processing operation so I was on a I was on a processor which is a giant ship working about five stories down shoulder-to-shoulder with people who separate haddock from cod and skinned them and they just go by on a conveyor belt and the work is is very difficult it's gotta be hot down there it's hot and the the knives are razor sharp and you're in a boat that's moving around in big water and it's dangerous and every way dangers can be and when I got off that thing prior to that I admit eating sushi twice a week and for nearly a month I seen cappuccino and Perrier oh look I'm all back I'm back on the program for sure but yeah the same thing happens after a slaughterhouse it's like you know what I think I'll have fish tonight and maybe for a couple of weeks but I always go back to you know I'm back into meat now in a big way to be honest I was offered four in fact the last time I saw you I was uh exactly forty pounds heavier than I am today yeah I get well you look good man I was I'm not fishing for compliments well you weren't City early no last time so I did I was sick I was sick and fat which is no way to go through life now no wonder JD emailed me and was like let's make a deal you don't use that tape and we'll let Mike come back on your show at some point in the future and I said you got a deal cuz nobody wants that you know I don't want to have that tapes not out there no she was like you cannot really are you kidding me yeah she would not let me do it she's looking out for you she was right to do it that is unbelievable I bet if we looked at that now you'd be like thank God that is not on YouTube you know what I don't get I'll tell you what last thing I want to do is get in trouble with my office manager so if you guys made a deal stick by it I will but let's do a split screen put up a picture of me two years ago I was a fat fat I just come to the point in my life where I just I just had to stop eating for a while and yeah yeah I lost I lost 40 pounds since I saw you last that's amazing good for you I think I've lost around 30 pounds too well I got married it you don't want to be the guy in the wedding photos that I don't know you know no you look terrific thank you now that we're both fishing for compliments oh now that we're both are sharing our respective scrotums that's right that's right I want to end with this because you know a lot of people ask me always micro cool you know you you had them on the show who's the guy that's that's really disappointed you the most and it's day it's not you yeah it wasn't sure where that was going but how come with all the like the fame and the fortune attained through TV now podcasting which we all know is very glamorous mmm you haven't turned into like a you know an insufferable Hollywood dingleberry well look opinions vary I mean there's a pretty pretty compelling case to be made that I was an insufferable a Hollywood dingleberry you know before I had any reason to be yeah during the QVC days um actually you know what I write about this in my book yeah but yeah QVC I learned I learned everything I needed to know about this industry selling things in the middle of the night in 1990 I really did it was humbling it was informing it was funny it was tragic you know to sit there for three hours and free-associate with an endless variety of products that you had never seen before that looked like they it looked like they've been well these were the products that nobody bought in primetime mmm the stuff that looks like you know it was sourced by one of the claws in the carnival midway the machine that grabs that you know just endless nonsense and it I would sell those things and and I learned a lot about myself and I learned a lot about this industry and the big lesson was I just learned I learned if you don't know what you're doing you can either fake it or you can admit it now if you fake it you better be really really good at it and if you admit it you better bring some level of charm to the confession that you otherwise might not find and so when I was handed the health team infrared pain reliever in 1990 and asked to talk about it for eight minutes on my first shift I just looked in the camera and said hey so I'm Mike I'm the new guy and this is the health team infrared pain reliever and I don't know what it does I'm not even sure it's real it says here on the blue card it relieves arthritic pain with infrared light that's blasted into your joints it if this is true someone call me tell me about it the numbers on the screen ask for Marty he's the producer he'll put you through and we got overrun with calls people asking to talk to me to tell me what it was these weren't testimonials these were tutorials these were people calling me telling me how to do the job and we just kept it going for three hours in the middle of the night for three hours people called to tell me what the thing was that I was supposed to be selling and you know in nature documentaries we called it the submissive posture right when a small wolf runs into a big wolf the small wolf lies down and says hey look you could kill me I hope you don't but I I don't I don't even want to fight you know I get it that's what I did for a year rolling over and showing your belly on tea that's all I did that's all I did I you know and and so and I did well as a result and if you look at dirty jobs what's the difference I'm a guy saying this is an expert this is a sewer inspector he does this for a living I don't I'm right I'm down here for the first day I'm gonna tag along and we're gonna learn some stuff together me and you from the sewer inspector so I again I'm not saying I didn't turn into a pretentious insufferable douchebag I'm just saying that if I if I am one I've always been one and if you don't think I'm one it probably has something to do with the fact that at the core of everything I try to do in front of other people it always starts with a confession I always try to manage expectations you know I think that's important some people would say it's fake modesty and maybe it is to some degree but at least acknowledging it sure has has given me a certain amount of permission to get away with all kinds of things I like that I'm I have to take a page out of that book which speaking of the book tell us what's in the book the way I heard it that's maybe not in the podcast oh of the same name well it's really you know I said to you before we started rolling everybody should write a book you know everybody should write a book and wait tables you'll learn things about yourself you know this was supposed to be a simple collection of 50 of my favorite podcast stories with a little bit of connective tissue what happened was I started picking the stories and then I started to essentially write about why I wrote the story I wrote in a kind of a memoir way like what in my own life rhymed with this this this biography I just shared with you what on an autobiographical level you know motivated me to write it and so it was it was a fun writing exercise and a pretty good question and what would came out after doing four or five in a row was a kind of back and forth so the podcasts are mysteries the and and what I would call tiles if you look at the book as a mosaic the podcast stories are tiles the grout is the connective tissue and and collectively the grout turned into a memoir so the book is an accidental memoir interrupted periodically by true --is-- stories that are told in a biographical mystery format about people I've always been interested in but who have never met so it's a hot mess of biography autobiography mystery and memoir it's the feel-good hit of the fall feel-good hit of the fall available now on audible hopefully it's on audible I sat right here with Isaac our engineer just a couple of like a month ago and recorded the thing but yeah it's wherever people buy books anymore yeah yeah that that's I was gonna say I don't even know where people buy books but of course they buy mono you you don't have to buy one I'm going right here you want to sign it yeah sharpie who do you want me to sign it like like I'd like Brad Pitt yeah I mean you can sign it as whoever you want but probably as yourself and you can sign it to Jaden jyd en this monkey your son yeah okay you don't have to write anything relevant to him I mean he sure agreed years from now yeah this is gonna be worth literally dozens of dollars how old is he now he's two months old he's two months old so the only sensible thing there right just keep it dirty yeah he's got a dirty diaper right now taking your advice over I don't good thankfully my scrotum has been shorn anytime we should do this again in a couple years I'm gonna drop another 40 that's right drop another 40 pounds sure yeah no I'm not I probably won't do that normally I'm like a tick for this are you kidding me I'm going right out now and hitting the Krispy Kremes you

Channel: THE JORDAN HARBINGER SHOW

Views: 25,442

Rating: 4.9006209 out of 5

Keywords: jordan harbinger, jason defillippo, the jordan harbinger show, tjhs, jhs, entrepreneur, self help, motivation, relationships, lifestyle, advice, podcast, self improvement, personal improvement, mike rowe, the way i heard it, dirty jobs, somebody's gotta do it, skills gap

Id: 3fE-9B3uSq0

Length: 76min 13sec (4573 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 15 2019