Michael McGregor, Veterans Oral History Project, Vietnam War

veterans history project that mr. McGregor can you begin with a little bit of basic background on yourself thought to start with where and when were you born I was born in South Bend Indiana February 5th 1943 alright and was your father in the service at that time yes yes he was he was my dad was a career soldier he was he was killing us at World War but he was when he died he was in the army about 19 and a half years mm-hmm he was it was in the old horse cavalry he was in the cavalry when they gave up their horses for mechanization and then then he transferred it he was with this forming second cab division which he left he had a problem with apparently he had a problem with one of his commanding officers or something so then he he was too old for a combat command so he was given a task of forming an amphibious tractor company and he did deployed the Europe and was killed on d-day on in Normandy so all right did another actually using amphibious tractors in d-day well their trucks okay okay all the doc it's not a doctor because there were actual enthusiast trackers I'm use the Pacific and later in Italy though right yeah so I think he got in there anyway all right now so your mother was living in South Bend then was that where her family was yes yes it was yeah in fact they met it's kind of crazy he was an enlisted man for until the sometime in the mid 30s and they get commissioned but he it was in the seventh cave and he in one way or another he ended up that Culver Military Academy as a ROTC instructor I came back then I guess kids when I got out of it they went there like it was a high school but I think I commissioned at the another high school right and he was he was a polo coach taught horsemanship and in military tactics and then he bought also bought horses for the their black horse troop and they met at a Halloween party he came with his you know and his uniform and didn't had that my mother commented on what a clever costume it was nice is not a custom and as how they met and they got married and then they they lived in Culver until the all the problem before our involvement a second world war they would start I guess expanding the art they were building up the other he went to he was at Fort Hayes and Columbus Ohio for a while that's where my brother was born in and 41 and then he went out to Fort Riley for the the second cab and then when he went to Fort Riley my mother moved back home with her parents and then lived there until and then they passed then it was killed we then just stayed there okay and so then you grew up in South Bend yes okay and then did you finish high school there yes I graduated South Bend Central High and then I went to we didn't have much money but I found out I got VA assistance and going to college I got war orphans education I act so we went to college we went to two years at the Indiana University Extension Center in South Bend and at that time you can only take 60 hours there and then I finished up my last two years at IU Bloomington alright and then what did you major in I majored in history okay and what were you planning on doing with that I didn't know I liked history I thought I'd like to teach so I used some of my electus and took some education classes and then when I student taught I didn't really decide that I didn't want to teach and when I graduate I had no idea what I wanted to do I took a job with the public health service as a syphilis epidemiologist good background for history of course what did they they actually have you do for that well you would interview people who were diagnosed with syphilis back then anybody that was diagnosed with syphilis at divet was reported to the County Health Department and we worked for the US Public Health Service on loan to the I worked in Ohio to this state Ohio Department of Health who then in turn lent us to various various county health departments we would interview people who had to diagnosis and try to trace the source and spread of the disease and then you know contact the people that they may have been infected and right get them tested and prophylactically treated and how long did you do this kind of work just by here how did you get drafted while you do well no they the draft is kind of an interesting thing when I got out of school I was in college I had a student deferment mm-hmm I got out and and I graduated in 1965 and Kennedy had issued an executive order exempting married men from the draft right so then when Kennedy was no longer understand so that was beyond I was gonna get married in August August 21st where he got scheduled to get married and then my buddy LBJ came out and said hey if you had to be married before the 14th of August to not be drafted so the invitations were printed so we had to scratch out the 21st right into 7th and moving up our wedding day and so okay now I thought I'm clear and some time after I got married that was they he rescinded that that part of the thing is so the only way you can get out now is if you were a father and a child or a pregnant wife so it looked like today and I couldn't get a deferment an Occupational deferment on with the public health service so we moved back to South Bend and one just in case I got drafted my bad loans my wife could be close to family and then I took a job in South Bend with Bendix aerospace and we made fuel controls for the what became that b1 the f-111 mmm economic all the tf-x for whatever reason that was I figured gee now I'm making the tools of war I worked on production control that I could get deferred no sorry kid you can sew and I got my draft notice in September of 66 and I reported I reported and that November 15th or something okay and where did you report to well I had to we went down to the local reserve National Guard center always Ermita does always this stuff it hit in the early morning hours it's dark and bid farewell and boarded buses and then we went to the Chicago induction Center and were processed there for no part of a day and then put on a train and sent down to Fort Campbell Kentucky all right and what kind of facility was Fort Campbell or what was it did it have a particular area that trained for well Fort Campbell it was it was a training center I guess in a first world war in the Second World War the training center was just reactivated I think the summer of 66 there and but it was home for the hundred first Airborne Division they were there so we had basically world World War two barracks you know just a common two-story clapboard site at old barracks right yeah Kentucky in November is not necessarily all that warm now what did the basic training consist of at that time well yeah basic training was an eight-week program which you the purpose was to you know it you're not in the army to wipe your enemies ass or their does yeah to transform a normal complacent citizen into a soldier started out with the basics we did a lot of close order drill manual of arms then progressed to spend a lot of time on bayonet fighting hand-to-hand combat marksmanship a lot of always physical training in there he did see how much emphasis was there in discipline following orders well you did that I mean it was it was communicated to you very clearly that you know you you're here you'll you'll do what we're told to do when you're told to do it and we never were that assaulted physically but verbally we were and and usually the the people that were disciplinary problems were they were volunteered for you know hand-to-hand combat demonstrations and bennet fighting demonstrations and and they'll go under the okay now you can go under the building where they have the tear gas without your gas mask against there with your gas mask just see what it feels like and those kinds of things but it was but again it was my training there were probably I would say 80% of the people in my basic training company were reservists and National Guard's guys you know so they had something to do theirs we didn't have any disciplinary problem there's a few guys thought they could get out by you know pea under bed or whatever so just gave rubber sheets and a few guys got two guys didn't follow any hygiene rules but not PM the recruits took care of them placed yourself okay now the fellows who were guard and reservists were they sort of a little bit older like you were no they're just the same same age at you know you tried to you know the the garden reserves had a very long waiting list to get in at that time is you know you beat the draft that way and so you know a lot of these kids would get on the list when they're 16 or 17 and you know then they get see we're still kind of an old man than among the trainees yeah I was just a few months short I've been 23 years old when I got drafted yeah there were a few of the draft fellows that were draft that were about my age but most were most weren't okay now after eight weeks and basic what do you do next well well it's it's really actually I have a backtrack a little bit because I was when he get drafted you go down there then you're in a reception center for about a week your process and they do an extensive physicals and various testing aptitude testing preference testing and that kind of thing and then they you with an MLS so I was they slotted me with an MOS where I was supposed to be a personnel specialist but there's a problem because I got drafted and my pay was $90 a month of which they took 50 out at it 45 to it which sent my wife my wife got a lot out of $95 oh yeah $65 a month car payment no it was kind of tough aye-aye-aye one of the tests we took was the OCS preference test so I I took that and it was it was really a crazy test I mean you could you could just see what they were looking for it was like like a hundred forced-choice questions you know I would rather a go to the app or play football mm-hmm you know I would rather you know read a good book or go shooting with my friends yes I just answered all the macho answers from Genco so I felt so old man that they thought I was gonna be General Grant you know so I was OCS qualified and then they told me that AG you have you're paid as an e5 while you're in Hollister yes which was a lot of money and I knew your wife it's a housing allowance and all this so I didn't have a physical profile so I opted for OCS and I had I had to pick a combat arm so my first choice I think was armored armored infantry and artillery in that order during basic training during my time there and communicating with my wife and that my life lets me know that she's pregnant and she was about a whole month pregnant when I got drafted home and I reported so if we would have known that and you know I would have beat it and she said she was able to get by we you know just do your two years and get out so I thought I'd dropped OCS and basic training well come to find out I didn't the paperwork didn't get through so I got I got orders to go to priyo si si I T advanced individual training and field artillery at Fort Sill so I said well I don't want to go to Asit well too bad you can't you can't drop it here you got to drop it over there so I went to Fort Sill make a long story short I dropped it that's fine okay you don't do your training here just go crash straight into your training I don't want to have the personnel specialists too bad I know you were in the affiliation now I'm in the field artillery yeah all right now what sort of condition was Fort Sill and is that the two was an old face and the big artillery Center from World War two mm-hmm what did that look like Oh beautiful well they had some old barracks but we were in our training area with brand-new barracks had squad Bay's instead of you know just the open things of bunks I think there were four of us and a little squad bay and just you know night I think his air condition it was really nice nice night night nice barracks and it wasn't as physically demanding as basic training was we ran every day did the daily dozen but you know that was about it all right and then what did the training program itself consistent well I was the MOS they gave me was 13 echo 20 I think it was feel their Tillery operations and intelligence and basically it had it did two things it trained you to basically be a forward observer to identify targets and call target I'll call firing on targets and it trained you too take the targeting data that the f that the Ford observer calls in and calculate a quadrant and deflection you know which way the gun barrel will be you know horizontally and vertically and what charged so you can shoot and hit the target and so it was more of the cerebral part of field artillery I didn't have mostly classroom work and I had kind of an edge because during during high school and my first two years of college I had an uncle who was a he was a civil engineer for the local power company and then he had a business on the side or he would survey houses for the mortgage closing process so you know I new direction I could read maps I could estimate distances I always said I you know I I always did I may not have known where I was but I knew where I wasn't you know and so it was in and you know with like some science courses I had in college I had a geology class that you know we really got into you know contours of the earth and got or maps and stuff like that so it was never that hot on math but it was I had a I think I had a leg up on a lot of people I can read a compass I could hook back as most I can you know I could take to two places and figure out where I'm at and so you were actually being given an assignment that actually made sense I guess yeah I think that's about a 50% batting average on that as far as I can tell over the careers but they were giving you something that you actually had some aptitude for yeah well you know a lot of people didn't though but it was a I'm not sure how they slot people in those you know obviously there's pre the computers that we know they say hey we need X number of people this and this and if you have of this kind of score that's where you go and because I had a rise in basic training this one going kid I was in with his he claimed his grandfather was a former governor of Puerto Rico and we and he's a nice kid nice young kid and he he got his orders to an AIT in laundry dyeing and pigmentation at Fort Lee Virginia someplace and so he would be dyeing cloaks away so I'm not sure how they slotted people where they did but I know when later I got the Viet Nam most of the people later than FDC and they fo parties were just like all mccannon cockers guys that just worked on the guns they didn't look for bright guys and they would train I'm because there's just an ad the people okay now how long did the training process Fort Sill take too much okay and then what happens to you after that well again I the stars weren't in alignment for me I had orders to go to Germany but because I didn't have the rank they the army wouldn't move my wife's I wanted to stay stateside until she had the baby I wanted to see the baby because I wouldn't have saw him for you know the rest of my tour so I put in they said no problem just give us a letter from the doctor estimating delivery date done we take care of it okay fine so I did that so I guess my orders to Germany I hope they were just being held in advance but they weren't and so then they put me in a holding battery and basically our day laborers around the around the post I did that and then we'd go out and twice a twice a week we go out and ambush people you know like the be going up road marching for bivouac or something under we would set up an ambush and they'd have to practice or anti ambush stuff you know just shoot planes and that did that for a couple couple three weeks and then I then I got a permanent job there I was guarding a laundromat they had the salon dermat nice beautiful grove of trees and we had I think it was four hour shifts or six hour shifts but you would rotate I get one day ahead the morning then he had to have known than the evening and as all he had to do was right across the street from base library so now you did just sit in or near the laundromat make sure nobody beat on the machines or tried to rip the change machine on the wall and and that kind of thing so I would I had the best of I had the best best gig in town I just go to the post library got a book sit in the shade and read a book before I shift that was it so I said gee I could I could do my army career this way this is great yeah then my wife had the baby I went home and because I hadn't a other than a little Christmas leave I hadn't had any leave since I've been in the Army now like my son was born in July July 20th so I went home for I think ten days I came back and as a First Sergeant wants to see you okay I want to see him anyway because I had to do some paperwork to get some more money for my wife not as she added to we had a extra dependent he said guess what you're on a levee to go to Vietnam I said okay Thank You sergeant yeah at this point what did you know about the anomaly was going on we we know it was there but it was you know we knew the war was there and in basic training we had every but he just couldn't connect to reality I mean if something's happened if I'm not gonna go over there it's not gonna happen you know you don't want to accept the reality of it but in basic training we had one of our one of our drill sergeants was a it was profile he was and he I think it was in he said sergeant first class but his profile he was in the hundred and 176 I have under 73rd Airborne Brigade on anyway he got he got he got shot pretty bad and Vietnam and he was on a profile so I guess all he could do is train troops uh and we had this big black di who would he'd lead PT every day and they'd have this raised platform they didn't on this platform had a hit have a stock had a big stump on there and he had the biggest biggest sword to ever saw in your life that he'd begin it every day hiddenness get the sword missed hitman to the stump and then he had yell out you know what that is no drill sergeant what is that that's Charlie cutting your nuts off why is Charlie cutting your nuts off because we're weak what makes you strong PT we love pt other than just that kind of stuff it was there in my AIT class I think we had to two or three guys they got and we had I don't know there were probably 50 of us we had two or three guys that got orders that ones went to Vietnam but they volunteered to go they wanted to go so it was just just didn't think about it you know did you follow the news or pay much attention what was going on at all I didn't have the didn't have the leading hit newspapers and the holding battery we had they had a day room so we could go under the day room but they're the only big deal was that everybody was riveted I think was that summer 67 the arab-israeli war yeah had war everybody was talking about that and all but but it was you know you knew Vietnam was there but yeah you know it's not gonna happen to me well a lot of the official reporting at that point was still the things were going well and we were winning and and so forth and the popular media had not gotten as negative as it was going to get after the Tet Offensive - so it's a lot of the really strong anti-war movement stuff of the stuff that the tractor the most attention tended to come a little bit later so maybe been a little bit easier not to pay that much attention to but at that time because that's actually fairly common a lot of the guys at that stage or didn't know that much no yeah I knew it was there and in fact when I was in college I think there was a senior had this one kid who was there one guy he had been in a service and they went back to school and you know hey you guys are gonna end up there you start seeing all the the thing and it was I think right around the time of no it was in always it was it was before bigger involvement before it was before they drank and that was the first bit so you got diem assassinated in 63 and then more and more stuff happening after that and but you know again it was you know I always say I was probably the end of one generation because as a little older everybody in my immediate family had served in the Second World War or Korea of course my dad there and it was and I get I lived in a Polish neighborhood my mother is polish and went to parochial school for eight years and a Polish parochial school and you know he always prayed for Poland to be free and there you know it was assumed we were gonna fight Russia you know it had you boys had to prepare for this and then we had the stupid thing of ducking under your desk every two Thursday when the siren went off and don't look at the flesh and you know that kind of stuff but you know it was you know we we trusted our government you know the government said this government was a friend and you know it's you know I didn't want to go but you know I wasn't gonna go to Canada I wasn't gonna go to Sweden that says you know I don't want to go I don't wanna leave my wife and family and this kind of thing but if I have to you know so be it right and so I had that service and yeah I guess after us and sometimes I question the the anti-war protestors real motive I think most of them are just afraid of going into the service period they had a you know but just my opinion what's the process by which then that they get you about to you've gone back to your base they say okay you're going to Vietnam how long is it before you actually leave well we had had to go through what they called our VN training training for for Vietnam was like classical some classroom stuff on you know the history culture of Vietnam the political structure their army ranks you know because they had to afford you know their people the military courtesy just like you know ours had to prepare well that was kind of neat we had uh never forgives they had a doctor talk to us about genital wounds oh and you know it's most graphic slides in the world but hey regardless of what happens you can still get it up and don't don't worry about that yeah okay then we had to then we kind of evolved out the field we had qualified with m16 because when I was in basic training we we still used the m14 had to qualify with that did a lot of Ambo anti ambush on training how the brother you know what what to do when you get ambushed at uh and then we had in the middle of the Oklahoma Prairie they had a Vietnamese village with tunnels and that that we have to we had to secure the village search it and you know just kind of a low preparatory stuff so that lasted about two weeks and then I went home on leave and went home and came back and just about a month which I learned later that it was a non chargeable leave so it was a free leave that they gave to me so it was nice and went home and and you know you just tried not to think about where you were going and then you went to then I had to report rumors on us Saturday I had to report that the Oakland California replacement Depot and then from there how did they get you to Vietnam well there they had a in this where I've encountered some protesters because they they told us that they don't worry if there's people you know yelling at you or this kind of thing just you know just ignore them but it's okay to use it's okay to use physical means if you feel threatened you know so basically saying if you feel threatening a weapon yeah but and I bought least they were kind of up the block a couple times we had to cross the street there's a little bar across the street we went to bar but you had I think was four formations a day four or five formations a day that you had to go out the parade round and they call off the names of the guys who were shipping and then you got your stuff and went on a bus and went to Travis Air Force Base and got on an airplane and went to Vietnam now that they fought you straight to Vietnam or what route ah I left we left Travis I think I was at the Oakland two or three days and we left Travis about ten o'clock at night and the pilot or somebody had a sick sense of humor because if he took off and was kind of banking you can see the Bay Bridge in the Oakland bridge all that loud then he played Tony Bennett's I left my heart in San Francisco so we went from there to we landed in Hawaii in Honolulu mid early morning I'm gonna say two three o'clock the reporters basically closed just walked around and refueled the plane then we want to we flew to Japan and every field in Japan and yet they left off the plane there had the Air Force Base near for about an hour and then we flew into Cam Ranh Bay and landed and what was your first impression of Vietnam when you got off the plane it was his open got out that door to heating him that it ate it oh boy we how they took your breath away it was well you didn't know what to expect you know and well I I gotta say I got very very scared because in Travis waiting to get on the airplane I didn't have anything to read and I somebody left the book or as I grabbed this book and took it and it was I don't know if you remember the book is and Johnny got his gun that was about written by a pacifist and the thirties about a guy in the first world war that essentially he was just a brain and he didn't have any limbs didn't have any senses and you know the story is his one his thinking back about his life and to trying to communicate or you know make some sense of where he's at I just scared I got you know I read what did I pick up here you know my god and say you got there I didn't know what to expect you know I just kind of looked out and said jeez yeah we gotta be under fire you manned and you don't know what to expect but you know I look at while they're not gonna land a big big 707 jet and somebody shooting at him I don't think and so he got out the heat hit us bad and it was just like any other any other army base you know it was just the buildings were more fragile looking and almost of most a lot of them are just roofs and you know some screen sides and that they took us to a replacement area where we traveled on our khakis had take our khakis off and put on jungle fatigues and then they just had us filling sandbags to I guess acclimate to the climate did that for that day and they did that the next day and then the day after then I had a warder say I thought I I really thought I'd kind of lucked out because I had orders for to the the first Air Cavalry divisions fifteenth administrative company so I thought hey I got it made and somebody told replacements go to this and they let you out to your unit okay G so and while I was there well I was waiting then I am a Charlie poor who I he was in the holding battery with me that he shows up there he got where same place no oh yeah that's cool at least I know somebody now and it was you know you're scared but you know nobody had what carrying weapons you didn't see any warlike thing I did some fire fighter bombers or something at the airport they'd be taken off and that kind of stuff but they're just like a like we're sitting here I know and so then we I'm not sure how we process but I can't read matter I don't wait it two or three days and then they called our names off and Charlie and I and I think we were the only two going to the cab we went to the airport we got on a c-123 and they flew us down K which is the camp Radcliffe was the base camp of the first cave they weren't yeah that was just the rear area there no maneuver units were there so it was they had a new troop desk get the airport an airport was just like a Quonset hut without sides front or back I just kind of open and okay fine and yeah this is where you're going on the truck will be buyer jumping this truck and don't take you where you're going so they took us to our they took us to the admin company and we had do some paperwork and then they they got a hold of our battalion rear and they cannot pick this up and took this to the rear air there's only like two or three guys in a battalion roof they had a supply sergeant a couple clerks so he got acclimated we drew some more equipment from there drew our rifles we zeroed the rifles in and then he told us we would have to go to Charm School so every everybody joining the division had to go through a jungle school and so we we've hung around the battalion area for I don't couple three days and then okay report down to this place oh we went down there and it was uh there's probably again about bernier three thirty or thirty-five of us a very good comprehensive program is led by two very senior NCOs of course they didn't wear any rank but these guys were good field soldiers and we zeroed our m16s and again they gave us some practical hints like you know never put full twenty in the magazine because it tends to you know too much pressure on the spring it might double feed you know John Wayne you don't clip fragmentation grenades you keep them in their can because they can go so they gave us a lot of that stuff they had booby trap courses that we'd have to go through and nail practice and and then we would do active active patrolling around and then at night we'd have to secure the perimeter or a part part of the perimeter and a that's where head up my first very funny incident you're in a bunker and I'm not sure can I use foul language here ok did you ever hear the you lizard no it's like a little gecko and it's has it noise like you yeah just just like that so here my first night in a bunker my bunker mate and I we got m60 machine gun sitting there and you sleep and I got the first tour and I hear this hear this noise I hear it again and I'm thinking about the old war movies I saw as a kid where the Japs are yelling you know we're gonna get you and I gots I got petrified I've gotten out there to Kirk oh come and get me so I start blazing what what hey I'm shooting a good time burst y'all do come on go crazy like that and all of a sudden oh my god Smee and one of these NC hoes came and grabbed me what the hell's wrong cease fire you know and everybody else there shoot what the hell's happened and I said they're the bad guys are out there they're going don't they're saying you okay it's just what he said that's a lizard I said I was so geeked that's so high on adrenaline my bunker mate and I couldn't sleep so we just spent the night speculating on how we could import these things to the US but we make a million bucks on college campuses so then the next day the next morning we had a lecture on the font of campus but you know it was a frightening FF was my first night on a perimeter you know you're gonna Wars owners you know where the tripping fleurs are your claim wars are set up about there Jesus so then then we repelled off a tower a few times and then repelled out of Hughie's and out of a Chinook I think nug came down on a Jacob's Ladder and that John the Charm School was about I don't know week maybe maybe 10 days and that they at that time they called it the first team Academy because that was a nickname of the keV the first team but army likes acronym so it's FTA and later they changed the name because FTA came to mean something else you know the army and so that was there so then we left there the Charm School came back to our battalion headquarters and a rear area I should say and the guy supply sergeant most of the battalion was up north romvong song and Indiana little River Valley and he said we've been joining a battery first the 21st which was down an operation burden Phan Thiet extreme south south eastern corner with two Corps so the next day we took a I'm not sure what the I think was a c5 or c7 caribou anyways very small twin-engine a cargo plane there was there's Charlie poor and I going to the same place and they had had Howard's around there they had they and the first of the 21st was the first 1st battalion to get the new howitzers they before it most howitzers had split trails and then you know two so then to change it I'm not sure how much they could shoot before they had to actually pick up the trail to move them and this was it's secured by a baseplate and I could they could fire 360 degrees I think was the m102 a three years something like that what it was it was I never seen it's a lower profile gun so we we kept that company and looked at that you land it Phan Thiet LZ betty was will let us call those just outside of Phan Thiet and big airport or airfield and apparently and that was the rear area for a lot of the units that were on the operation that he had the second of seventh cave was there and I could just explain the process that the CAV didn't have a heavy weapons company I never battalion had rifle companies and later they added a fifth company a recon company so they had a battery of artillery six guns assigned to each battalion and they always operate it within their fans so although so they they had LZ Betty there weren't there weren't any howitzers based at Betty and then he had two outs two outlying LZ they had LZ Judi and I had LZ Bert went up in the up in the hills and of the battalion one one company was always at at and around Betty one was at her around Judy and burl and one was always out in the field doing something that I move one day word that these L Z's they would they would patrol during the day set up by ambushes stuff like that and kind of a little stand down but but not quite and then then they the other one would be other company would be out of the field so then we went to we were just there at Betty for a couple hours and then we being in the Air Cav it had its advantages because they had a division had a lot of air assets had a lot of helicopters and usually there were three scheduled logistics and runs to each maneuver element every day morning noon and night so we took the log run out Bartlett and that's where the batteries command strim sure was that and we got there and they tested us to see if we knew up what we're supposed to know and when I'm just got into routine each the batteries supplied a fo party to each each maneuver company which theoretically was had an officer recon sergeant and a radio telephone operator and that I don't ever recall where there was always three in the party they want her to you know at the most and and in FDC when we were the fire direction control center would supply or the battery would supply the people there and a lot of times we would if you weren't full-time in a in an fo party you basically were in the fo party when that company was that you're at your base the things so you would so they'd always have it so between the grunt infantry grunts and the cannon conquers most of the most of the guys on the battery spent some time with you know with the infantry companies and they were they developed a good rapport and a good relationship real good now how quickly did they start sending you out into the field or did you stay in the fire direction well I stayed an FDC till I stayed an FDC for I don't know it made babe out ten days and then see that then they'd have what we called hip chutes and raids and these would be a that both started out the same a raid only lasted a day and what they call the hip chute lasted longer that basically you would we would air assault in somewhere with outside the range of the howitzer so the the 105 had dated about 11,000 meter range so he'd be maybe twelve fourteen clicks maybe farther away we'd aerosol din they dropped guns and then we just shoot the heck out of everything and patrol and if he didn't have if you didn't find anything and it just came back if business was good and if you well then you stayed for a while and you dig in and start that then you would you do that so it was nice I was there about 10 days and then we went on a on a hip shoot yeah we went out to L who set up a place called LZ catfish out way out in the woods and once I got shot at the first time scared me and the second time but we and basically what would happen as we would aerosol then with the infantry would aerosol then we would be and Minh the infantry load or maybe the next wave it just depend homemade birds they had and we would usually have the black hat with us which was a which was airborne Pathfinder that basically operated as a air traffic controller for the for the place above black hat would be with us usually one of the very senior one of our senior NCOs we call him chief a smoke would be with us and and maybe an officer maybe not we'd go in and they did basically chief of smoke would you know you know if it wasn't a hot LZ it was very very easy he would just you know designate where were their guns were gonna be set up and infantry was set the perimeter and then you would you would go and come and you dig in and then you start patrolling that did the L Z's have what sort of preparation was I mean it was an artillery bombardment or just someone go in and knock down trees well usually they they you usually like catfish they look for open areas to go in there since you're out of the since you were out of the Rangers you didn't have that typically you would have a artillery preparation much like a several water shooting at the beach before the guys land and it was a it was a good ballet because but like when catfish they didn't have it because we were outside the range so so what happened you had ara aerial rocket artillery would work over the area and at that time these were just Huey's with big boxes on each skid they had I think each box had like twenty four Rockets in it and they would they would go in and work the area over and every be a couple gunships right behind him again Huey's with you know real fast my rig machine guns on on the on the skids they would work it over to as the relief birds would come and they would be shooting I guess in the perimeter and and everything if you had artillery prep they would they would shoot what they call the zone on the thing and then usually a minute before touchdown and it is this was choreographed I mean better than any ballet and I mean it was just a thing of beauty to watch I mean if it wasn't so frightening that that the last round fired would be a white Philosopher's round so they'd see the white and the arrays would come in and and then the gunships and then birds right behind of it and it's it's not like you see on on TV where you know the helicopter sells down I'm guys jump off yeah he's swooping out I might hover for two seconds and you're jumping out you could be three to six eight feet off the deck and you jump out and run like hell and but and and then you know everything just just precision and other things coming in and I mean it's just remarkable to just you know there's just the coordination involved in the thing was I was I was fascinated by that all right and it was catfish hot LZ or was it no it wasn't hot it was it was it was kind of a area in Indo thick woods all around but it's kind of an open area some grass not even elephant grass Patel grass Maiden may have foot foot and a half high and we set up there and then that night I had to have every a guy by name or a and I were gonna be on radio watch starting like at midnight so I was exhausted I didn't sleep much the day before because I'm going in there I didn't know what to expect and they're scared and had some crazy feelings we had the name dug our holes dug the position get everything set up I just collapsed I was I was I was exhausted so I fell asleep and I was still sleeping and then ray woke me up and he just motioned for me to be called real quiet just luck and I couldn't help but notice go we were almost on the perimeter and somebody Tripoli had some trip flares out there and somebody's somebody tripped one of them yeah and like a rookie I look right at it there goes my night vision you know so and and then it sounded almost like an m1 guy somebody lit off a bunch of rounds coming in and it sounded like heavier caliber than you know and that was real eerie just going right over my head and then but right yeah ready on and nobody fired and Ray just said it's you know Charlie just wants to see where you know see where automatic weapons are and mm-hmm all that kind of stuff don't do anything he's just scoping us out there you're okay and then one of the hot would start shooting sometime fuse in the woods over our head and that was that was the end of that so never did find anybody but I guess they were they know we were there and I guess they just wanted to tell us they were there now what was this operation burger that they're doing what was that supposed to be doing well I think it started well you're gonna go way back the the second or seventh cave was almost decimated and they I drank Valley and all the the the day after the big battle right you know when they marched out in line you know to get extracted so they really got beat up pretty bad they were reek I think they I think that's why they got selected for so they they they Reis temp and got guys in there and then there was this in the fan theater Ali was kind of a not in the fancy head area was kind of a rice-growing area and then he had hills and and it's kind of a self-contained and clave it was highway 1 went through there and a railroad went through but neither was open and it basically as I understand the Vietcong pretty much controlled the whole area so they started operation bird to go down I guess because it wasn't I'm not sure the I don't think there aren't too many hardcore VC there I'm not I don't know if there's main force battalion there or not but anyway they say they run down there to basically break the siege open it up guard the rice harvest and that's what they did I just started in Phan Thiet and just kind of worked out and and basically pushed you know pushed Charlie back up into the mountains and and then that just secures I think that was and I think they brought it I think they let the second 1/7 go there to kind of just licked her wounds and because it was phenomenal they had I think they were there 16 months 17 months and they said we had like you know everybody you know body count they're just like I think they're just like 34 us guys killed down there and they killed like almost a thousand you know the VC okay well what they said with me see so so you're actually in the same area for an extended period of time but sometimes it was kind of an unusual for units in Vietnam to be in that place that long for you know that size did you where there wasn't much by way of civilian population around when you said you're protecting rice harvested yeah yeah the city of Phan Thiet was pretty big and that in fact Phan Thiet was the I pray pronounce it wrong the ducklings capital of Vietnam and the fish sauce that they use like we use ketchup and town smelled like mmm smelled like fish sauce yeah they're there and there's a little Hamlet's and things out it's on the hills is all free fire zone but it was what does that mean to be you're allowed to shoot if you want to or at all anybody you see is sounder Hostelling okay you take him out it was you know and that's I'm not you know I was a lot of times you wonder if you ain't buddy told the people live there that you know it but yeah it was yeah that was it so yeah oh the the civilian population was in fact it was nice because we could get as as I was there you can get a pass going to town you know I mean it would be a good soldier he'd get the morning log bird go back and just so you're back out in the field that ya know five o'clock or whenever he came back out so what was there to do in town drink guys I was married I wasn't interested in it but a lot of guys one want some female companionship and drink and hang around and it's kind of kind of interesting because there was a bar it's called Rita's and I had this sort of hamburgers made out of water buffalo you know there but they had and it was it's really kind of sad in a way because I parently was a big watering hole for the French because the French had the the the story want that they had a mobile group or something based there and it wasn't too far from the Lee Hong Kong forest which was kind of up the coast and inland and that mobile group was no more you know they got pretty much got got wiped out and in fact and Rita's it's so funny because in Rita's this bar the Buddhists use a lot of symbols and one of the symbols is swastika so this one fella and I are and they're having a couple beers and got middle-aged guy white guy walks in drunk you see this thing you start going how Hitler and all this stuff and he's gone crazy and a few of the other guys in there I didn't know them know all but a few of them I've been in Germany so they start giving him a hard time in German I'm telling him his mother wears combat boots in German or her harness Isles they kind of got an argument a guy left but the Vietnamese lady Rita I guess that was her name said that he was he was in the Foreign Legion and he was supposed to be in that group that got wiped out and but he had malaria or something that could go so I guess he just stayed there when is the time time in the army was up and he just lived there so but it got me to think I said gee oh there's people doing basically the same thing we've been doing for how long I know that was this was 60 67 yeah and when that was maybe 15 20 years before you know it was incredible but so I would just do that walk around town get a haircut Magby had a it looked like a your typical courthouse in small-town America they had a big big stone building that they had a little px you could buy box of cigars or something and not once but no you go and get a haircut shave you know he'd get a shave and a haircut for like fifty piasters or something and this was and this was the place where you've gotten you you actually bought yourself just a notebook or something to write in right yeah came over when I came over I had a little little notebook that I I was a history major in college so I said I'm gonna keep me a diary and it's gonna be and I had a friend who was in he was a graduate student when I was I think a Joan minimize a junior at IU he got a master's in English and then he had joined a Peace Corps and he was in Iran and then his tour was up and then he took a job with them stayed there and you know we correspondent and he'd you know all used to tell me hey this is historic times you'll make sure you don't forget anything and you know done you know if your right letters haven't people save them and and you know so then I in one of the markets I my one notebook was full so I went and bought another one a little rice paper one that could fit in a well we carried print 25 radios so they had to change the battery everyday and a battery came in a nice plastic bags I'd take the top off and I make it nice and waterproof you know carry it around yeah so I was able to get into phan thiet we were there for him well maybe first of October till mid January maybe and maybe getting a town four times five times something like thank me listen wasn't was nice now were the people generally friendly or they not pay attention to you or they're hustling they wanted money they'd pay attention to you and I I would do a little currency speculation you know you weren't supposed to have greenbacks which I didn't have at that time but you know we used MPC multi payment certificate look like monopoly money and they never did change it but they always saying well hey the color changes and your money's no good a certain period of time to change so the people were using that and the local economy and the people didn't say I found out early that you could and on LZ Betty they had a I don't know what a bottle with banker you can go in and say hey I got MPC and I want P Estes so it was like a hundred and eighteen P Estes to a dollar so to give you a like a hundred P note hmm so you'd go out and you trade somebody a hundred P note for a dollar does it make eighteen percent on your money y'all good I didn't have that much money but you did a little bit of it and so I do that sometimes we take what we got in the field we got what they call supplemental rations SP packs say a lot of soap in there you could receive a cell bar soap in town for a dollar you know dollar MPC so only take some soap and some Hammel plastic maybe and you know whatever you can put in your pocket and I wasn't supposed to do it but I'm gonna do that buy a bottle of wine or something during this time when you're in that area was there really very much going on in terms of fighting over there just mostly you don't get out of these places and we got that there were two there were really two rough incidents we'd get harassed a lot and you know probed a lot but there were there were two two times where you can say it was a pretty mad wouldn't not a major engagement not not in terms of the number of people involved but the you know the ferocity of the thing there was one was run Thanksgiving Day Delta Company aerosol dedenne and they it was it was kind of crazy it was a hill real hilly and I just got a little plateau and then the hill a massive one up and they could only put I think one shopper at a time yeah and there it's only the only thing so they came and they put first one down guys got off second one came down guys got off took some fire it went away third one came down to took a lot of fire and wouldn't go anyplace so that was their shot because the people there they can get off the plateau I had complete defilade from the they had some bunkers on on the hill that complete definitely from there but and in fact that's the only time I think with it that was the only time we ever solve it at night because we were I was I went with the relief force we went to the base of the hill worked up but during the during a situation somebody called on napalm strike supposedly on the helicopter but they wanted to toast it but of course they they had hit the guys they had out in the flank and I was over there a few guys killed from friendly fire but all they all the other guys the VC and their bunkers they were they were they were toast too so that was one bad time and about I was gonna say probably to two or three weeks later basically the same kind of thing happen again but that it was it was relatively all the heavy stuff I I really lucked out because all the heavy stuff was over by the time I got there I mean other than we just got harassed we'd be in like LZ I liked LZ Judi a lot that was you had a lot of more freedom and it was on the flat land and that was we never had that many guys there but now we'd have three others there they'd have four dusters you know what duster is the small helicopter isn't no no that duster would be the it was a Korean War anti-aircraft kind of thing was a tank chassis with 20 40 millimeters okay cannon zone at four dusters and a quad 50 there with a big berm around the perimeter I mean it was you think duster with dust off which is a different term I was I really gonna yeah yeah but I would we call idea of what we call doesn't have no idea what you know what what they would be there so yeah we were pretty secure they would you know we crazy things that happened we would get a I know one day we found four or five eighty two rounds and send within the perimeter but they even pulled the arming panel mortar rounds that I need to monitor yeah it's an NVA or VC did that so they you know they wanted to shoot but they don't want to hurt anybody they didn't pull the pull the arming pin out and we found those buried and you know I kind of say what's that ultinice you know and then they drop a few rounds in on us every now and then but a lot of sniper fire but more more harassment so it was really kind of winding down we did a lot of operations out in the woods and you know I found what the cab as we can kind of get into one when the cab would first hit someplace there were there would be some intense stuff but after that you know after the initial thing it was you know a we don't we don't want to mess with these guys you know they they move them go away fight another day or or something because and you know we we can kind of keep them off balance because you know we go we literally went wherever we wanted to whenever we wanted to you know it was you know I mean it's it's a thing of I don't want get the cart before the horse but like when we went into on operation Pegasus when we were really a case on it was you know even the Marines there's no look there month later just flabbergasted that you know we put down you know two brigades they're like three hours right you know into five different L Z's and just yeah just and you know the brigades each Brigade had their direct support 105 battery with it had their you know whatever other you know associated you understand every gate is a pretty big maneuver unit Nam we'd often battalion-sized operation yeah yep brigade was well that going into Pegasus was a division right we had to hold the vision yeah Brigade about three three three maneuver battalions all right so you're in uses our operation converter server that goes on into a very early 68 a little bit before the Tet Offensive started right now did they move you out of there before test yeah we that the operation was winding down in fact while we were there the well the hundred and first had a presence there on and off for a while and then we were in fact we we gave up some of our L Z's and we were way out the field that they came back they came down there but up I guess they just decided that they wanted to have the whole division together and so it first part of yeah it was the first first part of January that we we moved out and we went up to phu SI 120 c-130s up to english LZ english around bong song and then my particular unit we went out to a place that was called LZ mustang which was onna was in the on low river valley and it was as cold cold and wet and we were there again it was old like i guess it was an old french place cuz they even had you know concrete pillboxes like you see in the movies and that's kind of stuff there there was a old steel bridge over the river but that was you know it wasn't wasn't passable i was all blowing up so we were operating around there and had kind of an unnerving time there was I gonna say I the closest I came to sheer panic was was going to the bathroom and but the at this place it was when the we heard about that we heard that North Koreans captured a ship or something to blow yet the Pueblo says you know what that was about so there's about a week after that happened our area supply guys come out and they're measuring everybody for winter uniforms so what says well well we may have to go to Korea because of native North growin Oh ain't going to Korea I signed up for Vietnam I wanted to go someplace else you know it was that was really crazy but we were there and it was we get probed every night and it was it was something like almost like you know we want you to know that we're still here but don't bother us and we won't bother you came almost because we'd find you know what they were trying to do in retrospect I thank God we were out there in the middle of no place as opposed to by a by a city right because that's where you know all of the Tet stuff started I know we had a I know I went out a chopper a log bird coming and saw about 200 guys know it and they thought they were Arvin's but there were no Arvin's their owner and sale and it told it so we went out they sent a platoon out there so I went with the platoon and they found a mamasan out there so no no as VC VC no we made record time getting back but they didn't you know we didn't have any any major contact that way we get a lot of guys and one night one day we had 12 15 of them came in a Chu hi you know they cite war people a drop the leaflets you to bring this and it's your safe conduct pass and also most of our Sicard dogs you know it malaria or you're basically getting them who they were they coming into attributed Kong or they ignore theater needs uniforms oh these were North Vietnamese hockey guys and getting probed one one night I know I had I had to urinate I went to the I left my weapon and I got up and what we had what if you're ever someplace long enough to have what they all piss too mmm you know so I'm taking a leak and all of a sudden there's three real rapid explosions not too far from me holy what is uh so rather than go back to where I came from I go up by the perimeter and jump in a hole of a guy there and what it was was we had three strands a wire around this place they had one out about a hundred meters and I had one like thirty meters and one about fifteen meters away from the fighting position or whatever you call it and fella got and they those things went off they triggered a couple claymores and then they fired some illumination but what it was a fella came in and got the last strand of wire and just threw three hand grenades right no wrong I mean you know incredible and so he was kind of laying on the wire or what was left of them and they shot him a couple times just to make sure and it's in the next day we went out we got the guy and he had black pajamas but under that he had his khakis he was a few of the soldier mm-hmm he was NVA guy I felt bad for that guy he was talk about bravery you know incredible I mean I didn't you know the guy knew he was gonna die yeah and he did it well I was never the sappers I mean that what that was what they did and it he knew he was gonna die and he did it and then you know he didn't have anything of military value on him so obviously he knew he wouldn't come back you know I didn't a picture of whatever and we we dug a hole and put him in there and I was kind of sad about that guy that you know here here an incredibly brave guy there's an unmarked grave someplace and you know never never never got to hold his wife again or and he knows mm-hmm but you know it was just incredible just just just incredible the bravery I never never forgot about that guy it was you know and somebody they might you do that no way and no oh they were willing to do that that's why they have last of us in the war at least in part alright you are out there for because again is early 68 so you were out there in the field with the Tet Offensive yeah Ted started the cities were going crazy we get orders to be prepared to move on like 45 minutes notice and we go up to yeah I don't we price that they're about a week into Tet maybe not quite a week and then we went up to back to English and then we we redeployed whole brigade 3rd Brigade went up to Crane tree we blew the crane tree that's very far northern end to South Vietnam right that's not too far from the DMZ yeah and the North Vietnamese had come down across there and taken climb tree and gone into way and the start of the Tet Offensive so you part of the counter-attack at that point yeah we were we were we went up there I guess they did just send on everybody and his uncle up there and we we were screening we went to Quang tree and and then it's the first time I rode marched then we went down by truck from highway 1 down to we took over a camp Evans which was a Marine regimental baseman headquarters or whatever we made that we took that over and then began secure in the area there other maneuver units like I think it was more the second brigade they went down and away or that kind of thing closest we got there was we went down again another road march it's really really crazy because you know coming down from crane tree I say hey that almost looked like a World War two newsreel you know all the people wave and they're thrown c-rations out and stuff and but then you see the bits and pieces of other vehicles and from blown up and energy so we went we had to go and block block to the north of way we went down Highway one to the a river crossing there's a bridge I don't know maybe two three kilometers outside away on the north side and we had to secure that bridge and on the side though it was an old must have been an old French fort or something because it was built like in a horseshoe and a river here to open end was to the river and but you know they had a lot of again cement pill boxes with firing apertures and you know French obscenities about the army scratched into the walls yeah it was it was crazy so our job was to we had to secure that bridge and then do you know fire support for whatever whatever else was happening there and we and we did that for a couple of weeks I think and looking all the heavy fighting in a way we missed missed this ad although we had enough we we every night we'd see guys on the other side of the river you know with starlight scope you see squads of guys here and there a way to wait some guys we capture mm-hmm captured a few guys they I don't know if they were they weren't NVA they I don't know if they were VC or if they were just some poor guy that the VC guts because they don't have any weapons with their total ammunition you know so he'll be a porter or something right also we have we get some of those guys but then we secured that bridge and did a got hit and we'd shoot at us we do we get a lot of recoilless rifle fire into us from other side of the rivers groves of trees and other kind of buildings and they set up none of the way we'd fire back and we went one go order to look at what it was yeah it was there for and I don't know if these were remnants of the guys in way or just trying to get away or a lot but them and but it was really kind of funny because we had a you know we'd heard that they they brought in from our strategic reserve they brought guys in I said 82nd airborne was coming in and of course the road the bridge would closed a bridge down at night you know so you couldn't cross at night cuz it road was closed so you know all you guys got stuck here so some of these guys aren't stateside fatigues yeah I go on hearing them I felt sorry for these poor guys but then you know we we get I know and never forget one guy it's a truck driver hey bridge is closed you know I'm a crash with you guys huh and I got crash for those you're gonna we go hole there you gonna do four hours on the perimeter you know oh no no I joined the army just drive a truck I don't wanna okay you stay in her truck that I don't care Oh something came with us in the hole but it was a that was fine so we'd see a lot of different people come through a lot of our vans come through they wanted hey well I'm that I was always suspicious of people but you know they want to they'd want something shot up and mm-hmm and only were we wouldn't do it but oh my to be see there okay that's fine I'll go go again I'm doing mmm do it LBJ wants you aegeon boys don't know what you should be doing you know that's uh so we were there for a couple weeks and we went back up to uh getting there was kind of fun because I shouldn't say fun and in retrospect it was frightening at the time because we convoy now we're gonna convoy down a truck and most helicopters as uncomfortable and we we pull on a road and then we picked up on a radio that there was a CB convoy just ahead of us that was taken some fire so you know the nobody had a bugle but now honor to Kathy goes speeding up and by the time we got there it was everybody everything was over so okay we're gonna keep going so our truck has a flat tire so everybody else leaves and now here we are all he's smog huh that driver I said you better hurry up change that tire man what's so well done nothing happened but now was a lot of anxiety for a while and then we just took off and what went down that was I think we called that LZ Noah went down there and then well that was over then we came back to around Camp Evans and not too long after that operation Pegasus started and again I I kind of missed some good stuff because we're getting ready to go Pegasus and an end country R&R came down and I put in for it I had about six months in but this time and I got it so I got to go to the name why they were deploying so I missed the initial deployment but I missed it by a day as it turned out because we went the whole division went up and they want to they start up what they called LZ stud I think it was and and it I I think the I don't think the North Vietnamese were expecting Air Cavalry because I it almost seems like they had highway 9 kind of went from like quaint treat and allows and then they had this whole Road little to track that went off and uh and a caisson so it seems like the the North Vietnamese knew that we were gonna do a relief thing at some point so they fortified a bunch of hilltops around there on the assumption that we were going to use the road as an axis of advance and but they didn't count on our coming in on top of them and it was it was I we went to they I'm not sure where they were I went to stud ne'er solve it in someplace else then they went into what they called LZ Thor which was about five kilometers maybe from Khe Sanh I mean Kate kind of at the top of a ridge and Khe Sanh was like over there around that way and and I joined them I think well I think they went in in the morning I got I got I got there in the afternoon I'm like yeah yeah that's what a good friend of mine was killed there in fact a guy yeah I always felt bad about it a fellow who was doing what I would have been doing I think he was covering for me even he got shot by a sniper but anyway took over LZ Thor that LZ Thor and then we you know this inner service stuff okay just cool your jets hold the place let the Marines come through so then a bunch of Marines come up the road and they that's the next day they went in and oh I think they probably didn't get maybe 500 750 meters away from us or whatever and they they really hit the hit the stuff so they can come back and they ain't kept going they don't where they want so that Delta Company was Delta Company 2nd 7th was on that on Thor with us so a company commander puts together an ad hoc group he's all let's take a stroll down the road and let's go to gaze on oh yeah anybody game ok so so there was a citizen we put a sign there you know case on open courtesy of this Delta Company second as they walk we walked into there and again nothing happened came back but yeah that was interesting because that was the first time I I was under artillery fire from the other guys mm-hmm I'm you know it'd be I'd be calling it 105 fire on somebody and my counterpart is calling on 130 fire on us no but they were I I'm not sure if they wanted to I'm not sure if it was all that observed or what because they they could they could have really hit us by with high-angle fire she or not but they did but of course they know if they did high angle then we could really the target detection guys could really figure out where they were in and nail them so they were either long or short you know over us and but that was a first couple three days they're shooting I guess they were I don't know if they were in the dams ear and loud and well they had their guns in Laos they had guns in the mountains of a long way ocean border they had a lot of stuff in positions where we couldn't hit him very well but did so did you actually walk indicates on then all right and and what was their what did it look like when you got there just any other LZ you know that's just a forward place is not nothing pretty a lot of bunkers a lot of sandbags a lot of wire a lot of craters around there yeah well just just because there had been pretty intense fighting there for quite some time a lot of bombardment and so forth yeah they were doing getting all of incoming for a lot of times but it's just you know I'm just like Dannielynn lace yeah but some of the some of the land is really pretty but you know if it wasn't for a ward B it'd be nice but it was we just went in and then scoot it right back out and I'm just uh because then even wanted the Marines to come in and the Marines came back up the next day or two days later they can't come back down a road they had guys in short pants a couple Australians with them that's that's what they want that's what they did but it was a it was interesting we went we did that and then we went to we pulled back after the Marines came through we pulled back that we went back to LZ stud all the cab was disengaging and then we got we got selected to be the rear guard at LZ stud which means we didn't really have to do anything till everybody left and we didn't really want to eat sea rations so we so we had a couple guys that were good improvisers so they they they took off and they come back with that it's kind of a funny story they come back with a refrigerated truck I hate you they hijacked the third Brigade command stead quarters company third Brigade they hijack their mess truck so we improvised some grills with ammo rods and we're eatin steak 24 hours a day and that was it was a good time and we then everybody left and then we had to police up the place and you know what what couldn't be backhaul there wasn't worth a backhaul on would be destroyed and burnt or whatever and and the engineers would do some stuff you know as they like in ammo boxes they would the Vietnamese would use the nails they could use them for different stuff so a lot of times where we had a fire they buried some some stuff with long delay fuses on it's all on there picking through this stuff it go off and yeah yeah well yeah that was really kind of crazy because you know we would a 105 round is a semi fix that looks like a big bullet and I have a brass case and that you can take the projectile off and the powder charge well if you got on these things they wouldn't want to back all the rounds they'd back all the brass so you just look for things to shoot at I I got it we're gonna get rid of 300 rounds what do you got anything I show you that well okay I heard a chicken over on that hill why don't you start firing yeah yeah that's so anyway whatever couldn't be back all there wasn't worth it then would you destroy it right police have we found all kinds of stuff I mean it was just surprising because I think they were only there for probably two weeks three weeks with the most and all kinds of stuff so we went back to Camp Evans and they were already planning what what they called Operation Delaware then was it going into a Shaw belly and that was that was that was a hairy time we have I guess we hadn't been in the A Shau Valley for but one thing I heard about Vietnam even before I got drafted was it got some bad press here that there was a L camp a Special Forces camp or something was getting overrun and they they sent in a helicopter or more than one helicopter that bring the Americans out and all these local Vietnamese people or Hmong tribesmen or whoever they were all on the skids and they went in there having to beat him off so the helicopter could take off I remembered I got a lot of bad press and turns out that was in the A Shau Valley oh it was so we went there it was uh it was it was a Oh only one we went in it was tough because there it was I mean that was the valleys not that wide but it was really heavy thick country I mean really you know I I have a lot of empathy for these guys that were humping that their whole time you know and we we Aris we came in a little later they had understand the cab lost they somebody told me like thirty some helicopters going in there and I'm sure a lot of them auto-rotate it and oh no it was killed on them and they had like thirty seven millimeter anti-aircraft guns all around was like the enviers rear area supply place for way Danang though they had a lot of fortified caves and things like that in that area that whole that whole kind of thing but but it was fortunate because you know that the people we encounter were their rear area guys they weren't combat it didn't seem to be combat troops you know but we went in we went in a little late and because the weather weather was terrible and I had to fly high I mean you know I I thought my head was gonna explode I must have had a sinus infection or something but it felt like going up there they were up so high that it felt like somebody put balloons in my sinus cavities and just pumped up the words gonna you know pop but we were going into what we called LZ pepper we're gonna start that up and they had a one I think oh one bird landing you know I get one bird in her thick stuff all over and we're coming in and yes before we're gonna get out they get fired at and I'm not sure what happened I don't look the guy because it is angle of attack was gonna be coming in and then hover and I think he kinda had to back out a little bit and go onto their trees over here and he'll slope of a hill and I I don't know if he he pushed when he should have shut up what what happened but it took a little fire he went a little more forward as rotor he had a tree and you know account kind of went this way we all spilled I'm a movie where he went more than five six feet off the deck we all you know the door Gunners and there were like three four of us four of us in it but so we spilled out that and then the crew got out that the pilot and the copilot got out and you kind of window but it closed the LZ so I were stuck there and we had to had to make a pad a little bigger and finally they extract the helicopter in that but it was a little as haireolas it was thick stuff and I'm not sure if they really knew what the heck they were getting into also what they wanted to do was secure the hills on both sides and then and then we could support sweep the thing and that kind of thing but it was yeah yeah it was it was grossly grossly thick and we had a trees that look like telephone poles and you know but I know a couple hundred feet high and it you hit one with a machete and a mache just bounced back at you you know this harder you know all hardwood or something just murdered a neck and so it's just see for and det cord and and we just kept doing that doing that and I had a and then we kept getting people coming in we got a lot of y NBA guys would come and they wouldn't even know we're there why and it's what I say I think I think the rear area we we surprised them and they were trying to get back to wherever go back to Laos or something what happens when they show up well you shoot him right or or whatever and you know but new name is ones and twos and that in fact that was I was taking a dump and some real high grass it was kind of a probably I don't know maybe an area 50 60 square feet it wasn't much but the trees all around and so I was I was taking a dump in this grass and grasses but mambas high as me about six foot high and wind was blowing and the grass was brown and I'm looking at a grass is moving a different way from the from the thing and here here to NVA guys and their khaki uniforms like seven or eight feet from me they look at me I look at a loss I'm dead yeah today you know thank guys swinging us swinging his rifle over and all of a sudden they're gone the black hat who knew where I was and and he just he took him out but he hoped that he said geez I sure hope we were still squadron oh I was that that was the closest I came to I think really losing it but I mean they had no idea I was there obviously I didn't have a idea they were there and at the week we that was kind of indicative of the of the thing the people you know I didn't just be walking around and trying to get the louse you know because lawless was just over there we were firing like hell and allows us to so you know it figured of if the guy is you know there's a line on them on the map that said well shouldn't they have figured out at some point that you guys were there I mean if you bring in helicopters and things like that and they've got positions around there well I don't know how long did this keep going on it was just for a day zone it was probably a week a week ten days we're getting these stragglers coming through or by their you know and if they probably figured that they probably figured there's more in the on the valley floor that's where most of the stuff was happening and so hey we're gonna go up in the hills and and then walk the hills to you know where we're going because you know like we couldn't even have a cohesive we just threw branches and brush and all the stuff that we cleared out just make a brush pile so nobody could come through it now about how many guys were you actually with at this point was it a company no there'd be a we only had we had three howitzers there yeah because they lost one coming and two were up on Signal Mountain so we had we had three howitzers there that they have that might be twenty four guys and had maybe two or three squads of infantry with us maybe a squad of engineers that was that so not not a really big post by any means no oh no no no most of the but when I talk about L Z's and that kind of thing other than stud and I Camp Evans nothing was over a company size you know it was always a smaller unit you know because you're spread out all over heck you know you it you know it wasn't unusual that a battalion could have their area of operation could possibly be you know ninety one hundred square miles you know office a a lot of a lot of ground right but in the meantime of the enemy does not seem to had a very clear idea of where all of you were what you were doing I mean there are other operations where they seemed to have a much better idea and they know what they're doing but in this case at least when your division came in and may have hit them when they weren't really expecting it exactly I've taken a certain amount of time to figure out what was going on well how long did you stay in that area then a couple weeks a couple every weeks and then we went to an area east of Camp Evans on the between highway one and the South China Sea and I call it the beach it was you know pretty much like ground like around Lake Michigan you know real sandy a lot of little creeks that break off into the you know eventually end of the some inlets into the then into the South China Sea and that kind of stuff a lot of graveyards the streak without joy that Bernard fall called it right now so we were then they spent the rest of my time there and so what were you doing there just screen in the area yes security areas screening it operating uh you know just search no company-sized operations going around a lot of a lot of NBA activity and there were probably five kilometers south of this LZ was a huge huge Vietnamese cemetery graveyard probably covered five or six square kilometers and there was at least one NVA regiment in there they were fooling around well if they were there I mean that wasn't the bear allowed to stay but that was that's the question we always ask they were you know maybe maybe ten klicks away from a Marine regimental base and I we find these guys there you know and but they blend in they you know they do their thing and what did they have some tunnels or things in that cell yeah yeah and uh each one of their great their graves were like mounds you know big mounds and you know a lot of more bunkers and their tunnels and we found uh they found the hospital underground Hospital there and all kinds of stuff now were you regularly patrolling trying to find them or flush them out as that as part of what you were doing in them and get to an area and it was kind of crazy because it would have been the fifth mechanised infantry division or part of the fifth kick him into that area I don't know if they deployed from the States or what but they came I don't know they had a beach they had a place further north and I mean it was a perfect area for mechanized us I had no idea where they had their mobile people there you know it was it was great to run around with a you know track or tanker or something but and they came they came down a couple times by us and anyone but it was a just hold and secure and but how long do you stay there till I came home okay which would have been September okay so sort of several months then the same yeah we go after after the issue of Ellie we went basically to the beach and like I call it the beach and we stayed there I stayed there the whole time now over the course of that time they did you ever actually get hurt yourself or wounded in any way yeah I got one or that LZ Noah again going to the bathroom I was up in a recoilless rifle or round or an RPG or something hit not too far away in a concussion threw me into barbed wire cut up my hands pretty bad nothing I could shut up and get but ten million units of by sillens none you know hopefully you don't get an infection and and that was there but you had that and one other time I got old piece of sh retinol my finger but other than that or nothing to do things not serious well nothing that required hospitalization or anything else over the course of the time these men in Vietnam how much contact did you have with home well my wife would try to write me every day and my mom I live with my mother my mom lived with a widowed sister so and I grew up with them something I always told people and today it has a different context I said I didn't have a mom and dad I just had two moms you know and all that people say oh oh really it's one of those things like Oh wasn't but they would write they write periodically and I get mail was usually pretty good but you know sometimes especially if you moved or redeploying someplace it took maybe a week or two to catch up with you but you know and I I'd try to write home you know as often as I could you know sometimes it was I could write every day sometimes maybe once every 10 days now just would they try to follow you and keep track of where you were I don't think so I'm not sure I'd make my brother may have but he was the old he was a former Marine he what he didn't serve in Vietnam but he got out before before Vietnam started up but I don't I'm not sure I really don't know I never talked to halt on it did you have any sense that they were they were worried about you or they follow the news and be afraid of what you might be happening to you or anything like that yeah yeah I I think you know the the I think in a lot of ways it was a lot worse on my wife and the people back here because they really didn't know what was happening you know and they would you know I just saw it on TV all the time and by the nose and they'd have the score box you know look the score count and all that so it was I think it was a lot tougher on them and I did see my when I was there I did see my wife once she I took my I was in country about nine months I got my R&R and I went to Hawaii and then she came over and that me met me there so saw her for about a week what was it like to be in Hawaii at that point and see her after it's my months in Vietnam it was great yeah with Italy it was good it was it was you know that you know the old stereotype of geez I was more comfortable sleeping on the floor than in the bed and you know on and I liked the bed yeah but it was like it took somebody out of a primitive condition and yeah we basically let him feel you know alt I didn't even have our own clothes you know every once a week they bring a mail bag out and they pull a top and bottom put him on and throw the old ones out somebody would maybe that guy I was in basic with that Porto Rican guy maybe he was doing the laundry him no no they would get that done and we would do it so it was you know getting caught up when I was a little paranoid about traffic and people and you know that kind of thing but in a great time in the people in Hawaii were just tremendously gracious trim that I didn't wear a uniform but yes they knew where I was you know and you know hotels gave us discounts restaurants gave us discounts free drinks just know it just you know it was a wonderful experience how hard was it to go back terribly hard terribly hurt because yeah it's kind of funny because I don't know if other people had this same thing but you know that you know you have a life you know there's something else there but the longer you're away from it the more abstract that becomes and your present reality is it was is and always will be you know that kind of thing and then so you know you kind of just compartmentalize your homesickness and your stuff you know you have it you read a letter and and that kind of stuff but it's it's like that that emotional connection isn't it becomes weaker and weaker as time goes by and then now boy now you have it again and aunties you don't want to leave and that's why you know I have tremendous admiration for these guys today they're in Afghanistan or Iraq because I don't see how they do it they go out on a patrol we're in a firefight and then that night they're talking real time with their wife and the kids telling them about their little league ball game I mean I would just lose it I would be you know I I just can't imagine that you know because it's it took you know it it took you a little time to become a good field soldier to begin with you getting the routine and yeah you know you have it and sometimes when I was there they start sending tape recordings and I don't want to guys I had bought a little battery tape recorder and I know that first time I heard my wife sent me a tape I must have written to her say hey got tapes or they found out or something I don't remember how that happened but you know boy I really bummed me out hearing the voice here - googoo gah-gah a little son and and and that's a holy smokes there is there is something in life without you know leeches and bugs and and snakes and bad guys and primitive living and you know all that kind of stuff it's you know so it's it it was very very hard coming back and i i i know i came back and i talked to first sergeant we got a new free surrogate just before i love well when we're up okay so i'm gonna do first sergeant and I come back to link i'm not gonna do anything dumb anymore i'm just gonna play it safe he's understand mac i understand exactly where you're coming from I won't give you a hard time so I'm okay thanks you know so Anthony it took me a while to get out of that then it was kind of interesting at how quick that other identity that other reality then absorbs you again do you know you had about three months left right yeah I came back from Hawaii probably mid-june and then I got out in September okay now did you spend the full time that you had been drafted to serve or did you get out I got uh when I went to Vietnam they had what they call the 90-day drop if you had less than 90 days to do in a service you would get out when he came home I and I I would have had I had a total of 22 months when I got out why I was there they changed it to I think six months five or six months because they were getting sick you know it and so you're drafted guy you got you know after your basic AIT your home leave your Vietnam training he probably gets maybe six months seven months at the most in and he'd go to the country hain't come back what kind of soldier you gonna be no you got send me to Vietnam forget it I might under sign my shoes no I'm not gonna do this stuff it's a so I I think they probably did that on a kind of a self defensive method to get out no I got out right away I was landed in the United States at Fort Lewis Washington at button ten o'clock nine ten o'clock in the morning and I signed out of the army at 10:30 that night had anybody made any effort to suggest that you read up or anything like that oh yeah yeah well when I got when I first got to the unit I know that I said we they tested us okay I mean just gave us a situation what would you do how would you do this stuff so and I'm not sure what all they had in terms of records on me but I know the company commander or battery commander when I got there when after the test he he took me to the side said well you know boy you can go to OCS because it's still open for you if you want you'd be back in Oklahoma in a week well thank you sir but and I just not not interested mhm and then the executive officer what work he would normally not pull radio watch but he he pulled for about a week and a half he pulled radio watch with me and he was trying to talk me and I said you know I said you know no disrespect but the only way I'd take a commission is with the proviso that I could resign it the next day and leave the army yeah that's because you know my dad was he he had a regular army commission and he was killed and if my brother and I if we met that the academic criteria we could have got an appointment any of the service gap he didn't want to go to but it that was off my radar I wasn't interested in it and then when we that's one of the things when we were out processing in Fort Lewis we had two real sharp looking Army recruiters who come in and they had to talk to you give you the read up really tough and and they they phrased it well it was hey we know you know hey we're the reenlistment guys and all the booze and cat calls and all that oh yeah I don't know how you feel but once you get out in that real world and you know it's if it's not what you think it is think about the army and we have you know you guys you did your time there you can pick schools you can you know da-da-da-da-da-da and you know you don't have to you don't have to be a grunt you don't have to run a tank you don't have to a cannon now there's a lot of other things you can do and we love to have you in the army so you know if it looks if yeah we are I for those of us coming back in 68 we had this little ditty we'd say that the golden gate 668 to bread line and 69 you know and yeah we always do that so I'm sure I'm sure there was a few guys here and we had guys that re-upped weather and Vietnam mhm hurry up there extended for another tour because they're so desperate to get a leave home or something you know and they they did that but it was uh I don't know of anybody that that Rhianna lists that family now in in the Vietnam era one of the things military tried to do to maintain his combat effectiveness was they would rotate men in and out of units individually so you join your unit as a replacement and it's still out there doing what it's doing when you leave it now did that work fairly well for you in the sense of rejoining people who knew what they were doing or they could show you work but as I said it was it was basically a unit of strangers yeah because the the unit would deploy over there you know they let's say they I think the calf first one over there probably September August is September whenever 65 or whatever so that year anniversary every August or September they're churning people you get a new cast of characters but then you get your replacing your casualties a lot of the cab guys when he originally came over they didn't have a full year some may had six months to go some may had three months I may add nine months so they were they were churning we would you joined the unit and and we even had guys that we would get guys we're on the beach and we got three or four guys from the 4th Infantry Division that they had like six months left in the six or eight months left so they switched you know they came they came to us and he gave him somebody that had maybe a year I don't know how but it was it was a constant it was a constant kind of rotation yeah yeah it was the most of the new guys would just learn by watching and his some head like I was fortunate to have I had a couple tremendous mentors I Dre this this one guy I was with on catfish eat he taught me a lot and then I had a senior NCO sergeant shankle hood that it's a good soldier and he they took me under their wings and and that most of the guys you you know you only associated with the guys that you you were directly involved in your immediate unit ur and ones who were assigned to you and I thought quite frank I think that that rotation policy way in a higher level see it got ridiculous I mean I like battalion command structures they would totally change every six months because people wanted to their ticket punched right and oh they wanted to combat command and and I know when I was there I was not a beach there made just before the beach we got a totally new command structure they come see oxo all the S one two three all these guys and attack from unit in Germany mm-hmm it's right there and then D then they don't crazy stuff like now they have promotion boards mmm give me a break you know you you go there and you know them the guys known as job out in the field but he has to go to a board and answer some stupid question about you know how many cans of shoe polish he has to use this vagina shoe you know this is just stupid stuff and I think you know hindsight's always 20/20 but I think that policy cost a lot of guys their lives because I mean no nobody nobody learned by their mistakes they're making the same mistakes over again and and expecting people to do stuff that it might not be able to do but and and like well command and control I've never other than on a couple L Z's we had some a couple visitors once we had the we had Abrams come by when we were on the beach Abrams and Tolson who was a cab commander he'd come out see the boys or half an hour and a two they they leave but you know on active command kind of thing I never saw anybody over above the rank of captain mmm-hmm and most most of these guys were you know at prime my age ROTC kids you know graduating college 21 22 second lieutenant for maybe eight months first lieutenant then they want them they want another bar okay I'll take a now they finished her mm-hmm their basic course and off they or what you know whatever so it was and I can understand part of it because we all hate it with Charlie Charlie you know I'm talking about when I say Charlie I command and control Helen member mm-hmm I mean you era they're always over you know you have this big area of operation so the battalion command structures up there going around or flying around that is getting able I don't think they wanted to see how many oak leaf clusters they could get under Air Medal or something and you know but then at night now hot showers nice bed grilled steaks some some good scotch maybe a nice bottle of wine with their meal and oh geez I'm roughing it on the combat then the next day they're back out again and here the poor guy it no idea what but it's like out there you know and a lot of units or areas that the divide seems to have in between kind of captain and major you're the captain you're out there in the field with a line units then you know what it's like to be there but if you're the guy in the helicopter or back at headquarters you don't well I am part of it I think is because the nature they were so spread out but you know it's but you know yeah you really didn't have much contact other than when you went back to a rear area for you know for some reason and I've had that dental problem or on in and out on R&R or stuff like that but you know it there was a lot of a lot of resentment I mean everybody over there got the same one $65 a month combat pay and all that you know and somebody is you know I give you a little story about it my first year back my wife's mother was one of 13 children and they have a huge Christmas party and then in fact they just have to rent a hall so one of one of my wife's cousins married this guy was graduated from Notre Dame was an engineer some guy engineer and he was in ROTC and it was in Vietnam and at this Christmas party she was bemoaning the fact that he hadn't called home in a week you know they have these Mars calls and so I said gee what's he doing and he's he's keeping busy he's keeping busy he's like on to softball teams and he's in a tennis league and you know this kind of stuff and my wife just about lost it you know what are you worried about that kind of thing so there was just the NA I I guess maybe I I felt it more than most guys I'm not sure but I thought there was a tremendous inequity a tremendous inequity like with you know here in Air Cav we were in the air more than paratroopers or but bird troopers got John jumpy you know to me they should have taken the combat pay the $65 and and if you were an infantryman you should have got probably $500 a month you know and if you were countable someplace you you know maybe she got $15 or or something that way because and it was it was just two different worlds it was you know one world was the army you know this is the typical stateside kind of thing and your badges of rank and and this kind of thing I tell you interesting a lowly story about that I think it was when I was coming back from an R&R I'm not sure if of in country or whatever but anyway I teamed up with this in unque this black kid is medic when an eighth calf and we transportations all screwed up and we couldn't get from on k up north so they routed us through camera on base oh you're probably a better better deal to getting a flight there now you know here in a field unit you don't have your own clothes you just get pick out a pair of pants from the mailbag on a shirt and no name no badges of rank anything all the things we had is a were soft hat and had take the big yellow cab patch stitches right on the top of it so we're in Cameron Bay and obviously we stick out like a sore thumb because we're would have no the jungle boots black and the Greenwood well boots were white because all the the color was bleached off we have low priority to fly so we're just there are no seats so we sit sit with our back to a wall and just take a nap work by the gates they told the NCO gate agent that hey give us a call when something opens up you know so I'm napping and here's somebody's kicking my foot and I open my eyes and this guy started yelling and screaming at us we again come was a sergeant major had a steel pot on had a flak jacket on broke start spit shine boots and all this stuff and just yelling at us that we're a disgrace to the cab and the uniform and what's our name and serial numbers he's gonna burn us so bad that you know Lucifer's we were gonna thank you was air-conditioned because he's gonna bring so much heat on us into the yelling and yelling and yell and I was just uh just so these two guys walking by pilots they get through flight suits on and this kind of stuff and they stop and they were watching us for a while so one guy one guy was at first lieutenant he goes over to sergeant majors as sergeant major like talk to you much they get some often all the time and they have kind of an animated hushed conversation I can't hear what's being said and the sergeant major goes storming off he goes walking nyah and the guys come by and he says soldiers don't don't worry I won't give you more problems I want to thank you sir I very appreciate it now I said this item people use does not throw them in jail I think that'd be better before I'm going in and we kind of laughed I said whoa what what did you do get this guy off of us he said well to make a long story short I told him that where you guys come from you kill pricks like you okay he said you guys were you going I told him and said you guys want a beer yeah he took us out but us a couple beers and told told the gate agent to you know put us on the next manifest or whatever and were nice guys she only flew and it turned out they flew there flew fighter-bomber down what kind but and they were interested and they found out what I did and they say I'd call done a few airstrikes and they they wanted to know how we viewed you know how it was viewed underground and I said I can say is this is like the day you saved their ass again you know that's a yes they're so so they're just two different realities you know and and a lot of resentment about the you know the guys that you know in the rear and if people are making money hand over fist I'm doing different kinds of things you know just like that perfectly legal 18 percent deal I had going and yeah you know and but it was you know it was it was like people couldn't understand it you know the glaring inequity was it bothered me I'm not now I'm not sure if it bothers deeply a lot of other people but it really did bother me I just felt it was a but a certain part of us were being taken advantage of now what wasn't like to actually go home then you finally you get yourself discharged you go on back home what happens next was when I got home well I got home I walked up that plane as I said I this back before they had these you know the plane just pulled up to events and you get off it put a little stairway now and you get off and there's my wife holding holding my baby boy who was a lot bigger than I thought it was going to be he's a year old and they're all over a year old there's my brother my mother my aunt and I said I said first step I took on that platform was the first step for the rest of my life and it was great I got home took off my uniform shave my tie I started after R&R I started rowing a short-timers mustache so I shaved a mustache and I don't like facial hair so I did that and always just visited for a couple three days and my wife and I on baby we just took off and took a little vacation just drove around and saw I had a friend actually he was my best man when I got married but he my best man by default because we had to push our wedding up as I told you and my brother was out of the Marines going to school and he was in summer school I couldn't get out of an exam so yeah I'm Catholic so back then your best man and maid of honor had to be had to be Catholic so everybody else in my wedding party wasn't but a friend of my brothers was coming in for the wedding who was I made him he was my best man he'd sent me he would send out to the field the care packages mama wouldn't send you know but see he had a buddy that was on a vice squad he live in Rochester New York so he would bust when they busted a porno shop or something he'd take some of the magazines and put him in a box and some a lot of airline little bottles of whiskey and stuff and send it to us everything you know about once a month we'd get something from them you know everybody always look forward of my guardian EADS care packages but I just took a took a trip just poked around went up into Canada for a little while and did that and start looking for a job and then what kind of work did you go into well I I got into what's called what today would be considered called Human Resources I it was kind of funny I I had veterans return rights to Bendix aerospace company but I didn't really like what I was doing there so I was just looking around and there was this big plant that was this company was really expanding and they they had six unions under one roof and they the Industrial Relations Manager wanted somebody to handle discipline so he looked at me and so I hear about six four just back from the war I think you're perfect he fired me so I had stayed in that kind of work right rest of my life there West rest of my working life all right did you wind up in Michigan well I had worked for this guy well the fella that hired me he got promoted out and they brought in a guy to replace him and then I left I wanted to run my own show so to speak and I left and then the fellow and but I became very friendly with the guy who the my original bonus replacement we became very very friendly very and he moved up here he took a job as a senior VP at Wolverine worldwide and he had an opening and he called me up said oh no he didn't call me up cuz we met we met for dinner because we were back we're living an aisle and we could we were back and having dinner with he and his wife and si - ha woo how would you guys like come back to Michigan I'm always said when that's all we had it up theirs they hired me came up there so but I did I did get I think I got one thing accomplished for veterans because I came back and I was a little upset because I couldn't take advantage of the GI Bill because I had four years of veterans funded education so my father-in-law was kind of a minor politician in Indiana and they would have these smokers its political smokers and this everybody goes down and kick in a few bucks for the guy's campaign fund and he'd drink and he'd have a good time so at that time our congressman he was the Democratic whip in Congress and he was running while he was he was working a crowd and I k2 graduate at the high school I want to and I saw my father-in-law said hey Jim how's it going this - that my my father-in-law had a couple too many and he says you know it ain't fair I said well that's not fair he said hey this young man here in my son along and then she goes mate said he'd just come back from the war in Vietnam and he can't get the GI Bill why well he his dad was killed in the war so several were so he went to school under war fans education and VA says you can only have four to eight months he said but you know they did it what his dad would do is Deadwood paid his way through school if he wasn't killed so I don't know he should get some for his service no Bradham I said you know I I agree with you I think right and about a year and a half later they passed a writer and I could get to do people like maybe get 12 more months I like to say that you know obviously the legislation wasn't named for me but I'd like to say that maybe I influence that but tonight if you look back in the whole thing now why do you think your your time in the service model affecting you well you know it's just like one of those diseases you can never get rid of that you had some it had some I'd be a fool to say it but there was some wonderful times and there are some terrible times met a lot of good people that were and and I think that's probably my biggest regret you know we talked about the replacement mmm you know people coming in and out and you know I know people by the radio call signs maybe they're you know like like I can tell you my company commander name on was name was he's always - six mm-hmm so you know a nickname and this and that and I wish I would have gotten in a way I wish I would have gotten more contact information because when I came home I didn't want anything to do with any any of that I'm just gonna get on with my life and build my life but but later is you reflect and just say I'd like them yeah it'd be fun just sit around drink a few beers and they don't spit scratch and tell lies and you know that kind of thing and but then on the other hand with some of these guys you know you don't know if their names on the wall in Washington or not so it could be kind of bittersweet I did have contact with one other person and he was he's an officer he was enough all he often wondered what happened to him because we're about this physically we're about the same weight tall and back then tall and skinny you know now just tall and he was Airborne Ranger you know a really gung-ho guy but just ROTC and his dad and his uncle were they were with some big prestigious law firm in LA and he was gonna always go to law school I'm gonna come home he had a little more time to do any army but I mean I like six months or so and I'm gonna do my six months or eight months or whatever it was and then go to law school on you know got it got something nailed there and I'd be good I knew his last name and well we have alumni so the first cab has a pretty active Division Association I call it my Alumni Association so I get this call oh geez must be three four years ago around Thanksgiving with his the Monday of Thanksgiving week and it's this guy he said hey I'm gonna be in Lansing won't you come on up I'm gonna say hi sure I'll be up I go up there well he tells me where to go make long story short he was uh he never did become a never did go to law school figure out if I was any arm way he was stateside he said you know I always wanted to learn how to fly so here's the GI Bill we go to flight school maybe I'm an airline pilot I had to retire at 60 so then I became a corporate pilot and he was he was he was senator Kerry's wife's pilot for a better chief of air to the Heinz fortune was her pilot for a while three or four years but now he's his Magic Johnson's pilot and he was coming to bring magic over to Lansing to celebrate you know Thanksgiving with his his family so I didn't know this you know it he did tells me this I I go over there the waiting on the terminal and magic comes out and it's his family's there wait for me he sees me there and he comes up oh you're waiting line by Pilate aren't you old war buddies right yeah introduced had beautiful conversation with the guy even Clark came down originally he was gonna come over to the house and and stay but magic said well you know him the copilot just take the plane back to LA and come back and pick me up yeah also which which was nice because it he'll have their costume along it cost a lot of money to do that so but so I met hammer so every I I couldn't he was in Benton Harbor a couple weeks ago he gave me a call but I couldn't make it to Benton Harbor that day but so it's the one guy I had contact with and it was so strange but there's a lot of these a lot of these fellas I would you know they I guess you didn't realize how much of a part of you they are you know and then and you know they just yeah you know what you know like Elmer's booked We Were Soldiers Once and young you know I'm sorry I guess we're always soldiers but like we don't stay on this is one last question I got here gonna thank God yeah when you got back now you're in a time a lot of public opinion is turning against the war more dramatically there's more than negative news content coverage protests as what I've got stuff going on did you say much attention to any of that that register at all with you just go about your business Network yeah well I I never had I never had anybody you know spit on me or throw it because if they would have I would have taken him out you know it's just but III never was exposed to that I and I'm not really sure how intense that was course MIT the Midwest is something a little different I did follow the war on on the news was really especially when they went into Cambodia I know the cab was going there but but you know III did follow that I I personally felt that I didn't know why we were fighting I thought I come to the conclusion that it was a colossal waste and we should have just said hey you know we're out of there and or or do something else and you know because I you know I I wonder if things would have been different if we would have just taken over the country and put in like a MacArthur - bizarre like they did in Japan after the Second World War and give them people some and because the V&H people they're great people industrious they're brave people and yeah these guys were just fighting for their country you know and I always thought it was it was a must and every question why we well I I grew up under the domino theory that you know geez if we don't stop them they're we're gonna be fighting them in Cedar Springs you know and and and you know we viewed communism as this you know that there's this monolith that was going to be you know it's one size fits everybody and their godless and we're gonna be the this kind of thing and that wasn't the case and yeah it's just some little farmer shooting at you every now and then and they're doing something that takes incredible courage to do that when he knows what you're gonna do back to them and and as I just felt that it was that our policy was wrong and although on the other hand I didn't like the anti-war protests because they were vilifying the soldiers one that guys were just doing it yeah what they had to do any choice about it they were they were reluctant soldiers and you know we were reluctant soldiers so I didn't like that part of it and I thought for a large number of them their motives were you know that there were no geopolitical concerns in their motive they were just scared that they'd have to go in and and and do something and you know it was I think the wrong war in our own place at the wrong time but it was there and I feel sorry for the people that didn't make it back because it's you know when you when you do something like that I mean you know you can read all the books in the world and all of this and all of that and it's you know there's no glory in fighting a war you know yeah there's you know there's just the base reality that that's terrifying and you know it's just all I don't answer the question or not I I think it was the ultimately our way we want as best we can do before what was the experience like and what do the people who were there think of it sometimes people find out about the project in what I'm doing there the first assumption is probably kind of like a lot of the team at work over there into something they don't really know anything figure hope you drop to glorify the war no you're not watching YouTube you sorry well you know although I'll tell you is that if you want to glorify something it's the there was a III I don't know about other people that you interviewed but we had an inordinate amount of pride in our unit and the first kept an inordinate amount I mean Eve you see that that patch on somebody's right shoulder and oh they were in combat and now they're your brother forever yeah I mean it depends what war it was i man had a National Guard guy saved my bacon and post 9/11 Atlanta Airport we had a cat that John and I had a problem of the security guy and it's when they ever you guys were there what rifles and he come by and he took care of that force get hey so here we go but you know just so that way there's there's a lot of I took a lot of pride in my you know I still do to this day I'm a mom I think I think the best compliment somebody can give me as a hey you're sky trooper and that's what I was and that's what I am but but you know war as such is you know you don't want to glorify it but I have to say for the record I'm not sure about anybody else is experienced but we never were chased off the field of battle by any of these guys maybe we should have been but we never were so if we lost that we lost that you know I don't even like the term we lost the war we just chose not to continue with it anymore because you know I mean we had we I mean it was incredible but what we could have done and did but ultimately there's a limit to what the military can actually do in some of these situations and if the root problem was was political it almost didn't matter mMmmm had not even what you were in what did General Grant say he said I I I'm probably quoting I'm right but he said I can't think of any any problem between people that would have to be resolved by violence or with violence something like that and I think it is right hmm all right anyway that makes a pretty good point to conclude on it yeah so thanks for taking the time oh you're welcome I appreciate it I hope that works out and I wish every success in your endeavor and I'm one of these days when you get my little the thing I gave you just to take a look at it if there could be a book in the works people all right thank you yeah I'll autograph them for you

Channel: Veterans Oral History Project

Views: 9,479

Rating: 4.5339804 out of 5

Keywords: War History, Vietnam War, Oral Histories, Oral History, Veterans History Project, Vietnam Conflict, Veterans, Conflict, War, Army, US Army, Veterans Oral History Project, Veterans Oral History

Id: NLXMHMuW9FY

Length: 143min 26sec (8606 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 25 2020