MI6 Secret Agent Talks About the World's Darkest Secrets

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platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the Subscribe button and the notifications Bell so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live and boom on okay and today's guest we've got David Beckford David how are we thank you very much indeed for having me James very good thanks on you yeah really good thank you first and foremost thanks for coming on the show very interesting topics you worked with MI5 MI6 with the intelligence you've also a book offer very outspoken about certain things in the world that need speaking about but yeah it's good to have you on it gives people a different spin of it and a different understanding of the importance of what actually goes on kind of underground in the world and you've lived at firstand basically yeah no thanks very much for having me James yeah I was legal director for MI5 and six that was a fascinating job yes sure so just before we into everything I always go back to the start of my guest but I just want how can so did you get clearance to speak about certain things yes yeah yeah and because there's not many who do get clearance not at all so you must be trusted then with the information that you have to then yeah when I when I first joined uh the agencies um it was a time when they were going from the cold war and in into terrorism Cold War hadn't ended um but there was a different take on things and uh there had been some problems with the Peter Wright book that had been written illegally and they tried to stop it and couldn't and they decided that perhaps they needed um a proper legal department plus the ability for the agencies to talk to the Press so my first job there apart from being the lawyer was to be the liazal with the with the media so I was able to talk to the media got into this sort of habit of talking about the things I could talk about and about not about the things I couldn't and therefore I've been trusted since then to talk on the basis that I won't say things that I shouldn't you must be very well trusted then cuz normally people speak out of skill but again in that sort of environment i' imagine it to be cut thren I know it's a bit bit cringe for a man who's lived at but you see or James Bonds and stuff MI6 people fascinating for people that sort of obviously that's fiction but you know the MI5 MI6 it's always it's NE to Really Ever knows what's going on but again before we get into every for know I always like to go back to the start of my guest David get a bit understanding about you where you grew up how it all began yes right well I think it sort of started exciting because I was born between two Air Raids in the war my mother said the first bought me on and the second finished me off uh and my father was was abroad in in uh um Salon during the war he he operated against Japanese when he came back uh he set up an airline to South America with a friend of his um in the RAF and so my first trip to Brazil was when I was aged six I was put into boarding school obviously the parents lived abroad that was exciting converted bomber across the South Atlantic which in those days is quite a good trip uh and spent a lot of time summer holidays going out to see my parents there a boarding school in England which was um absolute Bliss because no parental Authority soone was totally independent and wild sort of set one up for MI5 and MI6 yeah so you had a pretty good upbringing then pretty adventurous yes indeed yeah it it was um tremendous and and also meeting um kids one own age out in South America Brazil Chile uh Argentina um it gave one a very early good scope on on other people in the world how they lived and it was an exciting it was a very exciting childhood I used to live with my grandparents they were out in a lone rectory out in the in in the countryside in in Huntington and there was some latan refugees there soone got to know them they were great F we used to roam the fields with a Afghan hand and a cat MH so yes very free very free childhood was Dad around a lot was he around a lot obvious I saw I saw him during summer holidays was that that he he's brilliant I mean both my parents are absolutely brilliant never never had any problems they were they were wonderful and they let me free which I think is very important as a child because obviously with not having the parents around there people's life can go totally different and I always speak about this but the majority of people who get involved in crime come from the broken home and it's not as if your parents abandoned you but they weren't there where you've got the fun kind of discipline from your father and the loving energy from your mother did it affect you in any way growing up or did you just feel free and Alive because you traveled the world had good grandparents yep we we a good kid then no no [Laughter] I was usually in trouble at school but we we had an interesting system um boarding school um boarding school I I was boarding school in in Huntington and then downside boarding school in in Somerset and uh the the heads of both those schools believed in a lot of sport and and right from the beginning at at um boarding at my first boarding school we were all put into boxing for the first term and uh that was very carefully managed because those kids who didn't like it weren't pushed to it the other kids who seem to get on with it were taken on and taught boxing and I think in a sense that teaches you two things first of all how to look after yourself and second if you've got an opponent that um one might be being beaten up oneself which happen quite frequently but if you're you're in a position where you're stronger than your opponent you also have to start thinking well do I really want to take this guy out there's no no point to it so it also teaches you a balance in life that I think that has stayed with me uh ever since yeah it's that's so important for any sort of combat for any young man on this planet whether it's boxing karate myay Thai whatever it is any sort of combat sport is so good for the mindset also cams you an individual because every mad man I know every guy who shouts and screams are the ones who can't fight I used to train in a place called the grip house in glasgo and do myay Tha all right and you would never think of these people in there were train Killers they're just so Placid skateboarders just getting on with our life not everybody but I'm just there were just good people they never screamed or shout but you go to the local pub everybody's loud everybody's daed it's just for me it shows a sense of weakness never realized that for many years later but we're living in a very sof in generation it's the gayest generation we've ever been in I think one and every five is gay by trans and I have no issues with any it but we becoming very soft and weakened for men and women's roles naturally on this planet we're kind of lost in a system where everybody's confused and it's a soft very soft and weakened generation that we're in yeah I I've got nine grandchildren ranging from a doctor down to a um a grandkid who want to go out and help penguins in Antarctica and I find in their own way they're very strong mentally um I I I agree I mean certainly for my generation the sort of wartime Generation Um we were all bought up to scrub a floor if things went wrong you know you couldn't sit down and and think about life too much you you were sent out to do things uh I think that has changed I'm not sure that it's changed for the worse I think we've got a certainly a generation that I look at Generations aging from 32 down to 10 that seem to me to have life pretty well under control Maybe I'm Wrong yeah I just feel as if it's becoming a weaker Society I don't know why um but more people more light T to addiction crime um a lot of people struggle mentally now suicide rates through the roof as well there's a lot of external things out there that people seem to be gravitating towards instead of I don't listen to systems a system but a lot of people are struggling mentally financially and I think some sort of more discipline of the old school mentality of toughen up a little bit push on P the big boy pants up and kick on but again everything's feelings and emotions and I understand that as well but I just feel for the men side of things I don't know if it's as strong as it was 50 years ago 70 years ago men were more respected they looked after themselves well but I just feel as things are changing a little more maybe I'm wrong as well but that's just for the people who are interviewing the things that I see I just and homelessness as well a lot of big numbers are through the roof and a lot of struggles yes that that that that's the struggle I think is is is harder I I I think that's certainly right I think in many ways I've been very lucky to work with um people who are able to look after themselves certainly in five and six I mean the women and men there are um incredible um and they they they look after themselves but they also um understand where the stresses and strains come from uh and they're able to handle them um and that Society is completely across the board I mean from University done people who who are not done but across to to people who've entered very young um and they all work together whether that's the whether that's partly because they've been chosen to have that particular mentality and ability I don't know I I don't despair of the younger generation put it that way yeah how long did you un boarding school for um from six till I left it when I was 17 so left at a very young age to kind of find find it for find out for yourself what life was about that was really good because um I came out at the time when national service had finished I was too young to do national service but a lot of people went to University and my Headmaster said David you're going to waste your time at University go straight in and um do an apprenticeship in the law which I did uh so I had 4 and a half years starting licking stamps on envelopes being given all the worst clients generally being kicked around did me an enormous amount of good uh again I think I was lucky because I was able to be independent and free one could sort of handle uh that did everybody else had that mindset though David at the boarding school where it was kind of get on with it and thing for yourself basically yes did everybody have that was it because it was more discipline or like you say it was a bit more freedom but it was a lot of discipline of this is your structure this is your plan this is your daily routine there was more routine to your life would it gave you more purpose yes do you think that's important I think that's very important what about national service do you think that should be come back I think it was very good when it was when it was there I there's a big debate about that at the moment um whether or not we need it in terms of setting up a a structure to protect ourselves against possible putinism um I don't know I leave that I leave that to the military uh again I I I I I get where you're coming from about discipline and I think it is incredibly important um but I think also my generation were used to a much sort of harder environment we we didn't see chocolate until until he was six you know as my grandkids keep groaning you know he's going to tell us all about the first banana he had you yeah yeah every every generation's different obviously my grandparents they fought in the wars and I love them bits and but when in Glasgow the bombing and Clay bank and try to bomb the ships like they were getting through it all the lights were Switched Off there was no electricity when you see people struggle today you think what is it you're actually struggling about like we've got it so good but I don't know again if technology plays a massive part of people's mindset where it's slowing it down and everything's reals and different videos and constant of trying to portray a fake life to try and fit in with people who don't really care about you anyway so even though it was more difficult probably to survive back then especially with food I just think now technology can damage mindsets as well where people can get stuck in a bubble so everything changes through time and obviously we guinea pigs for mobile phones and technology and radio and all the stuff that comes from it but it's just this is why it's important these podcasts is to get an understanding of your life and what you've went through and how you dealt with it and what you overcome so was there much discipline in the boarding school then for you to then yes purpose one used to get beaten frequently did you oh yes if what for what reason um if you didn't if if you failed to put in your homew work um that that would certainly get you can and uh I mean if if you were ever caught going down to the pub you know that would certainly be a very very good caning I remember once I I um bought my um I had a little 2 two air rifle that my grandfather had given me and I bought that to school to shoot the pigeons I was found out that eared me a caning as well so yeah uh it never did one any harm I I'd much prefer to be can or then than put in my room for the day it was only a quickly and you get on with life did anybody ever become more not Authority but against the system because they were getting Ked a lot people more people fragile towards it sure yeah I mean there were there were but then on the whole they were sensible and kept clear of of the problems that might earn them that that difficult yeah you never listened you were get back for more punishment what did you do after boting school David yes I I went in I I went into um apprenticeship as a law yes which I found really exciting my I I went in with my uncle and he he was the lawyer who defended Ruth Ellis who was the last person last woman to be hanged in England um that damaged him enormously uh but he was a very very good criminal lawyer he had no hope to to save Ruth Elis of course because she was caught pumping Six Bullets into someone was quite difficult to to precisely uh so he he taught me um criminal law and I was able after my my apprenticeship um to go into the courts which again was very exciting and uh kept one on one's toes so yes then I went into private practice um and uh after about 3 years I I looked looked at the partner the senior partner the consultant and the guy who had just been put in the ground I thought this isn't for me I need something more exciting and my wife Carrie uh bought me an advertisement which said they were looking for a legal advisor to the government of the Turks and Kos islands in the Caribbean and we looked at each other and said well let's go which was which was great so I wound up in the Turks and Kos Islands um now that that was was fascinating the uh time was the ministers there wanted to move away from what was fishing uh in into a tourism industry and also at that time they were setting up Finance centers what we call tax Havens and uh my job there was to draft the legislation to help that happen very exciting time why did you never go down the foot the kind of same footsteps as your father King the military uh I sight but also I was I wasn't really um keen on that and he he was he was in so he didn't force that upon you then no not at all because I know you said you were going to do the but someone gave you the guidance to do law instead you're going to go down that route but yeah I I I wanted to do the law I think largely because my uncle was defending Ruth Ellis at the time and it was very exciting and I thought that that would be a great career to have uh and that's what took me into the law my my father said you do what you want so supportive then yeah that's important so see the women who got hanged the last women to get hanged and the UK was what did she do shoot someone six she shot her lover yeah six times he he was a he he was a a bastard no doubt about that today of course she would have got away with man slaughter and been in for six months I mean he was so bad but in those days you didn't have a defense um of dominish responsibility so she she was hanged which was a ping I'm in a paing what year was this 40s 1957 it's mad that 53 yeah 53 only a few years ago that people used to get was it in the street or was it in court she got hanged how did it work back then oh she in in prison was it in prison to hang them yes I know people used to hang hung in the streets and yeah all that yes yes I don't know if that was 1800s and [ __ ] that was but it was pretty gruesome so you ended up in the Cayman Islands ended up in to Kos Islands which is near nearby the Cayman Islands the bottom end of the Bahamas chain and how was that experience that that was extraordinary I mean first of all the West Indians are wonderful so one had a absolutely bissal relationship with them which was which was great friendly um it was an open book to be able to um help create the legislation for a tourist industry and and and um a finance Center which was really interesting then of course there were the Americans there were two bases there um one base was for the Navy Seals the other base was for the RAF satellite station so we watched the moon landing there which was pretty amazing actually in their ciz station uh and um we had trouble with the Cubans uh and we also had a very strong uh chief of police there uh and um I mean there sort of thing that would happen in Turks was he came into my office and he said David he said you going to come with me so I went out with him we went up to the airport and there was the um guy who used to run the local Airline run Aztec to an engine Aztec he was an ex um bomber pilot low-level bomber pilot and we climbed on board and um Andy said as we were going out he said we're going out because we've got a Cuban fishing boat fishing in our Waters well at that time we were having a r with Cuba about who owned what as far as the the fishing uh um the fishing area was concerned anyway we went off and I said to to um Andy well you know what are we going to do because this guy won't have any number plate as it were we won't be able to land in the sea and do anything iing said watch B took us in very very low and Andy had two packets of yellow dye that he lent out of the window and dropped and he missed this boat there was yellow dye everywhere the boat was absolutely untouched anyway he told Barkley to go back and give a really low pass just to scare this guy and all he got was the finger as we went by from the captain of this fishing Pap so that was law enforcement in the turx and caos Island how long were you there for two years another another good experience then yeah very very good uh huge learning curve to learn well how to draft legislation for a start how to uh convert the um ministers wishes in in into law so that they got what they want um and also to try and write in protections that uh meant the tax Haven wasn't going to be used for criminal purposes that has never really been successful for any tax Haven because of course they are used for criminal purposes yeah it's still tax free isn't it C is yeah they're all tax free so who own who runs a c Islands Britain so they' still run by British still to this day so why is it allow then cuz there's always loot Poes everywhere and people find the loot Poes but that's always been the place for people to then take that money yes it it it's a very good point um the islands themselves aren't self-sufficient so they need tourism and they need to be a financial um offshore there's nothing wrong with being a financial offshore because that enables um corporations to deal with their or International corporations to deal with their um economy uh sensibly and and an uneven Keel um the problem is how do you stop uh money launderers um criminals organized criminals terrorists using these islands the um there are international agreements of course which uh govern the use o o of these islands but nevertheless it's almost impossible these days to ensure that you know exactly who is coming to deal in your Ireland or what money they're putting through the books there are various ideas that one has put on the plate I I spent oh four years after I left the agencies dealing with um tax Havens on the basis of creating legislation to avoid the problem of money laundering but uh I I can't see um any particular way of stopping it all together unless you just shut down tax Havens but is that not a good way then for like you say it's British it's British rule so is it a good way also for people who are putting big money in these offshore accounts to then get an understanding of who are they that's doing it that may be the case I wouldn't answer that question yeah because it's pretty then for me looking at the outside of having these offshore accounts if it loads them because it's the people who are C with the crop it's not your average guy here just try to Lo their money a few thousand you're talking hundreds of millions possibly billions um so it's like banking system here there's red flags if somebody gets more money than they should there's a phone from the bank says look where's that coming from or they'll froze your accounts which is understandable but there is it easy enough to set up or there's a lot of regulations that you have to go through rules and regulations you have to go through to then set things up yes yes you have to it's not just a case of easy going on a phone or an app going a bank no you can't do that you have to show you know who who exactly you are and where your money is coming from the the difficulty is with organized crime of course they they employ lawyers accountants Bankers uh anyone who's crooked in those fields to advise them on how to do it and how to get away with with uh bypassing the regulations and for for the organized criminals it it is not that difficult obviously so what what did you do when you come back yeah I was asked to go into the foreign office uh to be a lawyer there which um again that that that's another fascinating um life in the foreign office you're traveling all over the place you're meeting um people from all nationalities dealing with with different different aspects of international relations I mean for instance I was asked to um be the legal advisor for um the British space program that we were kicking off then that was way back in the days where satellites were just beginning and uh we had um I remember two two International agreements I was involved in one was the International Space Station the agreement that governs the running of the International Space Station now who would think there would be an agreement to govern it but yes there is and it was quite complex the other one was um uh for in Marat when we were setting up the first Earth stations governing how they were to be used how Communications were to come to the Earth station and how the satellites were to be used very very interesting stuff Cutting Edge then so yeah who have you got to work with then because obviously if they're putting sat anyone can put satellites up they got to be OB see you get China Russia UK America has everybody got to be in agreement to how many satellites they can put up or is it a free-for all that people can do what they want well no you you it it is pretty much a free-for all I mean you there thousands and thousands as yeah and what's really interesting about that is um one of my grandsons his dissertation for his last year at uh swans uni because he's studying aerospace engineering his dissertation is how do you capture space junk and dispose of it safely so it's sort of Full Circle we have a bit of a laugh because he looks at me and he thinks good grief he said you weren't really talking about that back then probably blame you for creating for yes so how how advanced was it back then though I always believe but I don't know I'm not in the know of being in that Society where where you're in and you're working with it but I believe the government whoever it is are always 50 years 100 years possibly more ahead of the stuff that we get now what was the advance like with that technology then was it because obviously you can get the satellites now that can come down and you can view people who've seen it now the proof is there but was it advanced in70s was it no not at all no I mean this wasn't long after Yuri kakar had made the first man space flight you know so it it was very unsophisticated I mean at the time of course it was the most sophisticated thing you could possibly think of watching the the moon landing in in 69 I think it was um Armstrong oh I mean that's just remarkable I this was way out of sight did you see this because there's a lot of people are skeptical that the moonlandings were fake oh I I was in the the US um tracking station on Turks and Kos which actually followed the moonlanding I was there and watched it so yes I can say it was real that's mad David that you've witnessed that people can make videos up now again I I'll stay open-minded to everything because I've never seen it with my own eyes so I'll always be skeptical like I say I can never discredit anybody or I could never be 100% proof because I've never seen those things but it's still intriguing I would love to think the moonlandings were real I'd love to think they were bouncing about in space in the late 60s and obviously with the technology now I think our mobile phones have more technology in it than the spacecrafts actually went to them in yeah um what were you thinking then when you seen someone on the moon I was thinking this is just unreal I mean it was it was sheer excitement I mean the excitement in that room you know in in the tracking station was immense I mean the Americans were just kcko was a huge achievement for them was very exciting yeah why have they never sent anybody back I really don't know I I think I I I I think that they found that very very difficult I mean it the cost is just immense uh and if one looks at the cost of what what went into that then I mean people would cill at that now because I know musk is trying to get people to ma do you think that's a possibility oh I've Carrie and I have booked our place to Mars because we re that if if Mars is populated they're going to need built-in grandparents you've got the technology and they know any how to make it last what about I know it's a bit of out there question but what about UFOs intelligence out there do you believe there's other species out there there may very well be I mean I I don't believe in UFOs um I I I I've never seen anything that's convinced me a bit like you I'd need to actually see it before I believed it whether or not there's life there may very well be there's no reason why there shouldn't be life puzzles me if I'm honest David the the anatomy the brain the central nervous system the creator of how we're sitting here and there's cameras and and how it happens at this time it just if I think about it too much my mind can go then sometimes I think as humans we can SE too much and forget to actually just live because life has a beautiful Journey it's also very destructive as well obviously we'll touch on that in interview but it puzzles me life it puzzles me how it's why we're here how we're here who created us yeah yes and I think that's goes back to what you were saying earlier that that the more you meet people the more you travel the more puzzled you get yeah yeah uh I I I I I was almost about to say it's easier but actually it isn't I it's a joy to meet other people and and travel and see how they live and how they all interact um but what what I think is the is how we manag to do it and in fact if you look at the way we live although we've got major troubles at the moment in fact on the whole we got on pretty well humans are decent people we are decent people like AB if it's a catastrophe whatever whatever people human beings first instinct is to go and help like we are good people we can get caught up in a society of listen you get beat up at school by the the teachers and stuff that could send you in a students imagine it would like I've been speaking about you had alcoholic father you had twins one became an alcoholic like his father another one couldn't even look at a drink cuz he didn't want to be like his father so it's everybody's get choices of you never know your circumstances of your upbringing either can really make you as a child and make break you but it just puzzles me life it pu genuinely because I speak to so many different people people and it puzzles me because you talk about meeting all these people you go into all these Tri everything's tribalism so you get into all these different tribes and cultures it's amazing how all these people people look different they speak different they dance different they're more welcoming they other people it's just how everybody's traits are different why do you ever think everybody can never just go on in life because we are all the same when you break it all down as humans yes I I I think genetics has obviously got a lot to do with with with how you how you act I'm I'm sure of that I mean I think I mean if you look back at boarding schools some people were able to to um take the slings and arrows much easier than others why it's got nothing to do with their upbringing I mean their upbringing was probably the same as anybody else's you know they didn't go through a hard time being brought up so I think I think there are genes that are in one um particularly things like alcoholism and things like that I think I think that is genetic uh and I think that um the idea that one can sort of train um train oneself to be one way or another yes of course you can but it's quite difficult yeah do you believe in genetics DNA things can get passed down of yes I do the same as the grandparents the uncles because you've got Instinct you have got Warriors out here you have got leaders you've got these guys and big white horses and the sword and they're leading people into battle you have got these leaders now not so much they're leading people into battle but they're winners you've got they're just ingrained they're born to win they're born to lead do you did you see that as well when you're upbringing the people you were surrounded if you just knew that someone had they were just born to lead yes do you see that feel that sure certainly you did and um I think that that that's certainly true of the agencies too uh I mean the the these these people are born to um go into dangerous situations to handle those situations come out even- minded balanced which is hugely important in the agencies keep their integrity which is equally important and yes and in a sense the agencies look out for those qualities or or attributes um specifically to make sure that when people are put into the agencies that those attributes come to the for see when you're in the Cayman Islands and you're working all this stuff and then you're seeing the moonlandings did you realize then okay this is what your life is about and that's what you wanted to do no I always wanted to be a lawyer um so yes I I I I think it was the excitement of it MH uh I I've I've been lucky in the sense of the laws um given me a a really really adventurous life I've done all sorts of jobs that have been exciting um I think it's exciting being a lawyer uh providing you keep a sense of balance how do you do that though you have to stand back and again I think if you are and I go back to this if if if you're lucky enough to sort of not be under parental influence all the time and to be slung into a boarding school where you have to look after yourself one of the things you absolutely need is a sense of balance because I know a lot I've had qc's on and lawyers and they never really seem to switch off the the one when they're working to go home with their work it's always nonstop and they just love the craft and the job and that sense of listen it's a sense of power as you've got someone's life in your hands did you feel that no no I never I never felt that because I think if if if one allows oneself to think that you become unbalanced mhm you either become too cautious because you're worried about the fact that you have got someone's life in your in in your hands or you become overconfident you know power what makes a good lawyer balance is that what it all comes down to you've got to be able to stand outside your client and look at them um coldly balance up the pros the cons and that was really important in the in in the agencies and and also in the foreign office what you're dealing with Russians and Americans I mean if if ever you go into a a meeting with with Russians or or Americans in terms of moving towards an agreement make absolutely sure that when everybody sits down and says oh we've reached that agreement you still have one more document in your briefcase to be able to hand back because the Americans and the Russians will always have one more point after everybody thinks the agreement's finished yeah that's why we probably get so much distruction now because nobody's coming to an agreement do you think what is that is that tactics or is it ego is it pride what is that tactics is that what it is yeah sure because OB I actually watched the put an interview did you did you watch it his interview you done last week you done an interview with Tucker and H he says he had an agreement in place it was Americans that pulled out last minute or something and says no yeah is that correct that could I don't know I mean I don't know that's what Putin says from his own mouth yeah I I um I don't know I don't trust a word of what he says so what happens then when you come back C in isand you wor for the what was it like working in the foreign office that that was very exciting as I say meeting meeting with with people dealing with issues that that were absolutely fascinating defense issues um at that time uh sort of did a lot of work with the Americans countering drugs which was where I first met met up with the FBI uh w w which was absolutely fascinating a lot of Human Rights work which is something that we talk about a lot now but back then human rights really wasn't um understood terribly well we we talked about balance of fairness but of course we it became far more sophisticated now you have a right to life um you have a right to freedom of speech but that right can be curtailed if it's leads to Crime um that sort of thing I think that uh the balance is now aren't aren't properly understood um I think the balance the rights also have equal responsibilities and I'm not quite sure that we have got the hang of the responsibilities that we need to balance up rights many cases how bad do a drug trade because cocaine if you go back to the the plant the cocaine the ca it was it plant called coca koca plant so you go back to the Koka plant it's been here for I think 3,000 4,000 years ago they used to use it in like ceremonies and they've had it in Coca-Cola and obviously now they've changed that I think it became bad in the' 70s but how big is the the drug trade obviously it's we'll touch on human trafficking which has probably overtook the drug trade but how big and is the trade in drugs all around the world how organized is it obviously you had Pablo Escobar and other guys from the South American side of things but obviously you've worked on it firsthand how big is this trade it is the interesting thing recently is uh because the the the program of eradication of drugs in Columbia and places like that the cocoa Leaf has was stopped there's now a sort of glass of cocaine on the market and and therefore more cocaine is is coming through the interesting thing I heard is that that certainly the younger generation aren't particularly keen on on drugs the the younger generation um the I I think the biggest uses are sort of um 20s to 30s you know for for social Recreation for for cocaine yeah um the price of uh cocaine has gone right down recently because of the Glad um interdictions of of of drugs have gone up because there's more more flying around the place I think again when one talks about the social use of cocaine uh I'm not really sure that the users quite understand what they're getting into apart from the fact that medically of course it doesn't do you much good but what they don't understand is when they hand over I don't know 50 60 quid um for cocaine uh that that 50 or 60 quid is going straight into the pockets of an organized crime organization and that money will help that organization continue to produce drugs at the same time as keeping people in order so what you're looking at is there is a almost direct correlation between the cash that goes into an organized crime organization via your street dealer goes to that organization goes to people who are being murdered killed tortured so when people take their line then not thinking about that they're not thinking oh my God actually this money is going into something that's absolutely appalling and keeping it going why not legalize it then you could Legalize It they've tried legalizing marijuana haven't they in the states W with pretty disastrous results they tried in Amsterdam uh I don't I don't see that legalizing it does much good I think that the the future will probably lie with with this new generation that's coming through the younger generation that are actually thinking it's just not cool yeah they want to keep their mind active and free I think that's what we need it needs to be taught is it's not cool it's damaging towards the brain it's damaging to the people around you you become a [ __ ] your person you become a [ __ ] your husband shut your father shut your brother shut your son like anything because I think was it Sigman Freud Freud which his a guy in the 1800s because the Coco plant he was getting benefits from it mentally but I think then people were taking mental breakdowns as well so everything grow from there you get the the heroin plant you've got heroin cocaine the poppy fields but it's how you manipulate it into what it does to the because I've spoke to drug lords I've been on the podcast they says we're putting tires on it um which causes cancer to the brain um cement rat poison cut yeah it's all cut so you're not even getting proper Cocaine by time it comes to the streets it's only like 10 20% of the [ __ ] that people are snotting but again it's a big business did what was it like then what with the FBI did you know what you were getting yourself involved with yes I was interest I mean the first the first case funnny enough I had was in Turks and Kos islands and and there was um a businessman there who who had built a huge house on the edge of the Sea gold plates in on the T apps and things like that you know we got interested in him uh we knew that if we tried to prosecute this particular person in the T and Kos silence he was so powerful there that probably wouldn't get a jury conviction so we asked the FBI to come in they sent in an agent that they used um countering narcotics in in Ecuador I think it was and that was the first time I saw an operation go radically wrong we sent him in with a war to meet up with this uh uh businessman on the pretext of introducing a new line of um Coca to come through the isands by air and uh he he was met on the doorstep of This Magnificent house and the businessman said well come on outside and we'll have a rum punch goes outside there is is on the Terrace overlooking the sea the wind had turned Northwest we couldn't hear a thing on couldn't hear a thing on the wire just of the sea coming in what you thinking then was this was this a drug lord this was a drug lord that we sent our or the FBI had sent their um informant into yeah yeah why did he not parties down for a wire why was he so confident that he weren't wired it it's extraordinary yeah and and that goes down to the um success of the Informer lulling the businessman into thinking that he really was a guy who wants to come in and sell a line to um to this guy to bring through the island is that what makes a good AG build in trust yes where you can walk in with a wire without any paranoia absolutely M it's mad how people can like because I've had so many undercover police officers on it blows my mind how cold he can be because the guy I had on his his podcast actually first he was an undercover gangster listen if I'm honest and I say to him I was always raised to hate the police because all my uncles they were all dodgy bastards you know what I mean so they're always we hate them because they were out to get them but you get grew up to hate them but then obviously you realize the job that they do is unbelievable the stuff that they see every day from the deaths and it's a negative job and they seen a lot of pain and I've nothing but respect for them for what they do now it took me many years to actually realize what these people do in their life and the sacrifices that they have to do to try and keep the the world in running order of course we need laws or else it be free-for-all out there cuz people are scatty but he went undercover as a gangster befriended this guy for two years and it was just about to pull the pull the plug on the guy and the guy asked him to be the Godfather his son yeah that's some dark [ __ ] to to pretend to it's like getting a bad wife who just [ __ ] you your money and it just pulled a wheel over your eyes for years and you believed all the [ __ ] but I feel as if for a man it would be harder to feel that you had a brother and then to find out it was all an act it must be difficult um because I remember watching the movie Don Brasco I don't know how how real it was but you've got to be some cold bastard as well to then do that life that's just because any sort of blown your cover you're dead you're not working with some two Bob [ __ ] who on the streets are working with the top the cream of the crop who kill for fun like were you were you nervous going into that job well I I was because being a lawyer yeah I wasn't actually I mean I went onto an operation in order to find out how are they operated in Northern Ireland once but it wasn't my job to go out on operations because there again you can get skewed you've got to stand back uh but obviously one as a lawyer in five and six one one one was involved in operations in order to um AE keep them legal which is Curious Thing to have to say but yes because the if if you operating against people it had to be necessary to do it and proportionate you know what you were doing was proportionate never ceased to impress me and one felt incredibly privileged working with these um agents men and women offic who who went up meeting um these um incredibly bad people winning them over winning their confidence getting the information that was necessary yeah yeah very impressive people indeed so see when you're the lawyer behind the scenes do have you got to brief them for what to say and where they've got to be because obviously there's a lot of red tape and certain areas they can be in certain areas they can gather information and evidence that you have to go through everything and where where they could travel where they could be like obviously if you're British you can't really go to America unless you've got clearance to then of stuff if you got to go through everything because if they go to court and there's one thing I miss they could get the court case throughout so if you got to be specific on certain things that they can do and be when they're on a job incredibly difficult too that there again one one was always impressed about how they worked under those conditions because one of the the problems um in in bringing um a case to court and that if if if one really wants to to get to the end game that's what it's all about trying to bring people to court I mean okay fine there are different different aspects these days in terms of trains and all the rest of it but the objective would be to get the the um criminals into court and prosecute them you're now dealing with intelligence which is secret and you're then having to translate that secret intelligence into open evidence in open court now that's quite a tricky business because uh what you have to do is to anticipate what evidence you can get into court that the defense a isn't going to challenge so it's got to be good evidence leading to a prosecution leading to a successful result second you have have to make sure that there's nothing that you're hiding that might help the defense so when you're planning an operation you have to plan it so not only do you get the information to convict but also you're not getting information that would be useful to the defense that could open up a whole line of inquiry to them that would help them in into another operation MH very very difficult very tricky and the um officers themselves who who who went into these operations were so good because they had to hold all that in their minds apart from the fact you're meeting with an agent in a dangerous situation or alternatively you're entering into a property planting a bug in an equally dangerous situation they had to come out write up reports not only about the intelligence aspect but also about the evidential aspect so that when you went into court you could show exactly what they'd been doing but hiding the secret stuff that didn't help the defense mhm so you're not just yeah but you're not just an average lawyer you're not someone who's going to the courts you're working all around the world it must have been some Buzz for you did you realize what you were involved in or was it just a normal day today thing for you yeah did you know it was it was day to day yeah yeah and were you buzzing from or you just taking it like any other job no you have take it cies yeah absolutely um it was fascinating I mean one felt privileged you know every day you went into the office you were privileged because you were working with people who were so incredibly good so that was a huge privilege you were privileged because you were working with the law in a way where you were creating situations um sting operations that sort of thing is that that's the elite the best of the best working kind in these environment see yeah if you're looking at people like MI5 MI6 I mean you you've met the SAS and they are the Elite C absolutely CIA because the guy from a CIA he was just a university guy well so he says list you've got to take everything with a pinch OFA same as cuz you are so in that life you can feed me whatever information you want you're obviously very good at it but I understand it as well how it works when you can feed people what they want but he was CIA I can only go what he was saying he was top his class in University he got pinched from his university because they were looking at everybody's School sheets and they were recruiting they weren't just some special forces guy some match man this was a ner from University Top's class he recruited he thought it was a joke he thought it was some sort of joke that's what he says but I'd imagine that works they're just getting the best of the best and seeing what they can get from them is that how it works with sort of intelligence here as well yeah I mean funnily enough one one of the reasons I've written about a female um agent in in in the books is what is this new book will plug it as well yeah no but I I I was actually going to say that that if if if if you if you look at it I know my my youngest granddaughter who who actually got me into writing these books because she asked me down to her school to talk about spies but she reminded me so much much o of um the officers in the agencies very very talented very bright but you wouldn't want to meet them on a hockey field you know it's that sort of dual dual Edge yeah what is your book David the Russian spy one know what is the where people can buy it oh yeah that's ca ca uh is the first book and that deals with a Russian um intelligence agent in in the first book she's the chief operations officer of organization called the G8 intelligence agency a guy called cartright who was um president Gaddafi's money launderer president Gaddafi was the Libyan president who was killed he was not a very nice guy and cartrite goes off with half a billion of Gaddafi's private personal Fortune uh catcher is her father was a KGB officer he was a real real swine he he forced her into the into the um intelligence World on the other hand her mother was a a ballet dancer who had a very glamorous life and catches completely conflicted on the one hand she's forced into the intelligence World which she rather enjoys but on the other she'd love the glamour of her her mother's life so she is then asked to go and find this half billion dollars G cartri is protected by Ahmed and a group of very very senior internet ational terrorists so she's got to go through them which is totally terrifying of course then she enters the world of moneya laundering which is wholly corrupt and depraved I mean really nasty people operate in that world they really do uh so she goes out to Panama to find to find out where the money's gone and then winds up in ambergris which is a tax Haven run by a series of corrupt ministers uh and of course she has a love affair there the question of course is you know does she go off with him or does she go off with the money like a treasure hunt like a treasure hunt where can people buy your book David they can buy it on Amazon water stones and uh hatchards I think bookstores we'll leave a link in the description so MI5 MI6 intelligence how does one get involved with MI5 and MI6 how does it come about David yeah I nowadays it's um you you can apply it's all on the website if you're interested in the agencies you you apply they advertise for for for officers um I I I was very lucky because I'd been involved in defense work in the foreign office and also I'd been involved in dealing with um The Americans on on counter you know Counter Narcotics and as I said earlier the there was a sea change in moving from the Cold War I um counterterrorism and they needed a a sort of different view from from the legal point of view it needed to be more legal rather than um illegal if you see what I mean uh because you cannot prosecute terrorists unless everything's as I said earlier everything is straight up and down you've got to be able to go to court and show that they are truly guilty and you're not hiding anything so uh I was asked to go in and help with the change which was very lucky it was a perfect time to go in another blank sheet of paper if you like what's the difference between MI5 and MI6 MI5 operates in within the jurisdiction MI6 operates outside the jurisdiction or outside the country but of course These Days International terrorism International organized crime it's all International so in a sense there's a a a cover over both and of course they have joint um organizations that that operate to to um bring together both agencies doing their work hopeful are they MI5 because obviously you've got your Russians you've got your Americans you've got your Chinese how are we up there with intellingence or is everybody kind of under the same umbrellas or one better than another no I think they're all under the same umbrella thanks well yeah I do think so yes so the the standard is is is as I said earlier is incredibly high so yes they they all operate together and that that doesn't exclude gchq either so what's it like them being in that environment what can you talk about like how does it operate your daily routine is it do you get a different job every day or you on one for months how does it work well it can be I mean some people are on them for months because you the these are long-term investigations so uh you have teams operating obviously and um from my perspective no day was the same because one was doing all sorts of different operations one was dealing with legislation uh one was dealing with with the human rights aspects so that was a very exciting life as a lawyer very interesting life because I've interviewed enough police officers now to understand the police know everything especially with informers especially with all the intelligence that they've got now MI5 is a whole different level like is the whole world kind of looked upon is everything kind of understood because obviously if you've got these criminal activities and terrorism as a lot of intelligence know what's really going on everywhere or can still people still fly under the radar because even though there's Terror terrorism everywhere there's not been many attacks and the UK is that because of how good the intelligence is or is it just because there's only been a few T attacks in the UK and there shouldn't be any of course but we lost lives is that because there's not happening all the time because of how good the intelligence is here it is that that that is quite simply the answer is that that yeah and if if there if there wasn't here sorry to interrupt but if there was no MI5 MI6 do you think there would be te attacks every day well I wouldn't say that but there would be a lot more yes of course without a doubt uh they are their tentacles stretch wide um and and they are very very good at job there's nothing worse there's no worse feeling in the office if a terrorist attack gets through I it it is you know that that really is a Downing time um people feel Dreadful that something's got through that perhaps they should have seen or could have seen um but if you look at it there's a finite amount of money to support MI5 and MI6 there's a budget and unlike James Bond there doesn't seem to be a budget at all uh you have to work within the budget and that literally means that you may be um studying a particular Target and uh it's been going on for a long time might be something out there might not be along comes another Target that might be more important you may have to give up the first Target and that's the Target that might come back and bite you CU you just don't have the money to do everything see I thought it there been a free-for-all as well where there was no money wouldn't be an issue course it is yeah that's mad it because especially with the intelligence that you could get to save potentially thousands of lives where there's not enough funding I know the funding police and stuff is terrible now they're dropping down numbers could that be could that have effect on crime in the future with not enough funding for people to protect and serve yeah I think I think what will happen is there will be I mean for instance we don't use um Telephone intercept as evidence every other jurisdiction in the world uses telephone intercept as evidence as listening inter phones well you can say well of course nobody talks on the phone these days because they all know they might be listened into but nevertheless they do it's just one of those Facts of Life the reason we can't use or we don't use intelligence um Telephone interceptors as evidence is or has been the cost because you have to bring together everything that is listen to and if you go to court that all has to go to court and be sifted through cost a load of cash I think what we may see in the future is AI will solve that problem because it will be able to deal with the huge amounts of of um of intelligence that that's secured by telephone intercept and translate in a way in which it can go to court in Far More cheaply than it can at the moment so I think AI is going to be incredibly useful in the future for intelligence work yes and and hopefully that that will solve part of the financial problem when did you find out about AI I have a friend who's working in the states very closely with um the hill on AI he's in uh Hopkins uh University uh so we've been talking about it for year or so yeah because I had a man called Mo on he worked for Google he created the ey he was one of the ones who created that really over 10 years ago fascinating and he said within the next 5 to 10 years AI is going to be 1 billion times smarter than any human yeah that's [ __ ] scary does that not scary David or no I think it's wonderful you think that's a good thing for like you say not cutting corners but getting to the the results and the answers faster than anyone could potenti because I said to him could they potentially then Rule the World um he says no he say it's not going to be like a Terminator where they're going to be in the streets and robots but he says it's so powerful that it's going to have a big S how the world is operated because it it doesn't want to it's just it's a machine I think we could be machines also we could be avatars or aliens like like I say I still don't know I don't have the answers maybe you do but I feel as if we're machines anyway well I think hasn't Elon Musk just planted implanted the chip brain mhm yeah and now you see people walking about with goggles different other metaverses and that there must be a true source to what we've come from maybe again this is another sort of metaverse maybe we we pass here we go back to the true source of what creat does genuinely again I don't know just from the people who I interview and try and get an understanding of life if I'm honest nobody really knows what the [ __ ] is going on no nobody's ever gave me a concrete answer no matter if it's CIA SC a school teacher a homeless man the billionaire nobody there's nobody really we're just kind of going through life trying to go through on a journey unscaved yes I think that's right I mean I I don't don't look at me for an answer I'm you have some secret ball the answers and some Einstein Bits of Paper down there that who create does I've got the answer absolutely someone must have the answers there must be in the archive somewhere where it's all started it's got to be you must have something Davey Boy tell the people what they want to know who's created us who is the UFOs is a it's just fascinating like even having you on it's just fascinating because you're very well spoken but it's clear you're a very well respected man to get to the level you've got if if you're building a team you want you in the team because you're very loyal to the cause and that's very rare to find these days well it's kind of you to say that I don't say it that way at all I just look at my life and think how incredibly lucky I've been you know I've been married for 60 years you know that is lucky isn't that amazing I think a lot people might think different DAV I can't even keep a get for 60 minutes I need to take a leaf out your book is a yeah but are you British R and through David yeah yes I am actually yes I mean not not that that matters I don't care you know what what I'd be actually I I don't see race at all um as I say you know going all the way back to those very early days walking a bar with Brazilian kids on the beach playing football you know do think that gives you a good understanding of humans though that we are actually all good because you've touched on a lot of different places and different people cultures and backgrounds because like you said British through and fr is just been we spoke about the Americans they're very patriotic like World War 3 stats you have the majority of them signing up because they love America I mean they sing their National Anem there's Pride with them Britain I'm not so sure I don't know I genuinely don't know if maybe I'm wrong I believe we're still a very strong Nation I don't think we like to profess ourselves to be British do we I mean we we we much prefer to to sort of hide all that and just get on with it you know I mean I I I do agree with you you I've worked closely with with Russians and and I mean Russians in in in particular and and uh got on with enormously well of course one part of your brain is saying yeah well okay fine I've got to be careful about this um but they're human beings just like us and if you don't talk to them you're not going to break through barriers I mean I I I look at the situation we have at the moment with Putin who's incredibly dangerous and we we have to do absolutely everything we can to keep him at Bay and to keep the ukrainians fighting and and give as much as we possibly can to the ukrainians um but there are Russians here that want to be here I think we can perfectly easily chat to them get with them there are Russians in Russia who don't want the life that they have and I think by any extent possible we should try and reach out to them incredibly difficult because of media shut down in in in in Russia but I think that uh rather than sort of caning each other and non platforming each other over here we might sort of start thinking about what we could do about talking to Russians and discuss what democracy might be to them as aart from us I mean I think they must look at us thinking here you talk about free speech and yet you don't allow people to come and speak their minds I mean I'm not talking about criminal it you know people being going off the deep end extremists uh they must find that really rather odd I think what happened with Ukraine and Russia what's how did it all start space because obviously crime both what about NATO as well was that going closer to Russia or was that an excuse to then Target Ukraine I I I don't think so I think Putin was in deep trouble economically um at home and he he wants to expand I mean there's no doubt about that and this is to the glory of Imperial Russia isn't it I mean he's gone back there when you talk about expan you're talking about Hitler trying kind of take over the world is that a possibility where World War I can start if how and how sorry two questions but how bigger is Russia Russia with China because that's two powerful forces as well can they be stopped if they come close together well again I mean I don't have any answers to that I one looks back at China Russia relations and they've always been up and down have they yeah I don't really know I'm just going for what I'm seeing they've always been up and down yeah um and and again I mean I think we can frighten ourselves to death I think I think we need to keep we need to keep in mind the fact that we need to be strong and that means money for our Armed Forces but that's got to be done um and for the intelligence agencies uh and on the other hand I think we need to remember that hearts and Minds is just as important as going to war you've got to reach out uh to to people yeah that interview was fascinating with Putin he did say that he wanted an agreement everybody sat down ready to sign it him and zinski and it was America who says no it so he says but again you I don't know I don't know I'm not intelligent enough to have the answers I can only listen to people and go well it makes sense but again Ukraine would have they had 50 billion 100 billion like when does it ever stop for peace do you think there would ever be peace because there's always was David from the patterns that I see in the books that I read there's always Wars there's always chaos there's always destruction and do you ever think there will be peace on Earth where people don't need to fight or do you think that's just part of human beings I think it's part of human beings I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier genes and DNA you know there will always be greedy people there'll always be people who want to be more powerful than others something we have to put up with do you think that's what it comes down to greeding power it's sad but it when human beings lose lives and like you've probably seen and heard and you've been under it where you've seen people things that the news don't put on or they they don't print but again is it all about peace and love I don't know but if you go back to the scriptures thousands of years it's always been destruction it's always been power it's always been people trying to take control what does that come down to is that ego is that Madness in the mind again we come back to the DNA thing where it's just a natural thing for people to try and Lead yes I think it comes down to thinking you are right I am right I think you know we're seeing that and I know I go back to this cancelling people out and non platforming that's done because people think I am right this person doesn't have a view well that's exactly what leads to war and and unhappiness what do you think of Israel and Palestine incredibly difficult I I mean if you look at the balance of Rights there uh the um Israel obviously has the right to self-defense must do and that's got to be looked at in the sense that um Hamas of the Crader of Hamas is the elimination of Israel and everybody in it so you you start from that aspect and then from your Hamas point of view you're looking at Israel that's creating difficulties in the West Bank you know trying to grab land and um their view going going all the way back to the beginning that Palestine should never have been split up I don't have any truck with terrorism because that's not a solution to anything um as far as Israel is concerned the Hamas have a right to life um but that right to life is is forfeit in C in in in circumstances where it's um necessary to defend yourself and your reaction on your actions against the terrorist are proportionate so that's the balance that that Israel have to look at the the the huge difficult question these days is that armaments and things are are are directed at specific targets but you do have this collateral damage which is a horrific thing to to look at I don't know the answer and I think the only people who would know or would be able to reach some answer are those people actually on the ground looking at what's going on from an independent perspective um UN in in in in particular Because unless you're on the ground and you know exactly what's going on you you can sit in an armchair and prosze and and talk about these issues but you won't reach proper you won't reach what I would consider a fair conclusion who's Britain's biggest threat Russia is it could they how have they got a lot of nuclear weapons Russia yes of course what happens if people just started is that a possibility or is it a lot more where people can't just press buttons and start firing missiles like could that happen or is that farfetched well I went through you know the era of uh of um the Cold War you know where where that threat existed uh I think I think the The View that I took then and I still take is who really wants to set off a nuclear war when you know you're going to be wiped out yourself so it's suicide basically is there intelligence for people to see missiles coming from a distance or can missiles fly under the radar with some special airplanes that can fly under the radar um but I don't know about m l say I genely don't know I don't know enough about that so see when you're working MI5 MI6 like is every day just a a New Day a different day yes yeah absolutely I mean you can be you you'd start off with a wash up with with the lawyers um working out what they're doing and um getting their advice as to what might happen or or talking through cases talking through legislation talking through the balance of Rights and you might be off to talk to um a team of officers about a particular operation how it might be working out and um trying to help them out uh then you might be going off to one of the Department's home office or foreign office to talk about working out how how to create legislation for some particular aspect for instance running informance which is very very tightly controlled uh then off to the director of public prosecutions to talk about a prosecution that might be going on on yes I mean it it it was very interesting see if there's no intelligence like MI5 MI6 CIA do you think the world would been more tmil than what it is yes yes is of course yeah how important is it to have intelligence around the world I think it's absolutely vital one one has to know as far as one possibly can what the bad people are doing do you get like a script of someone how does it work so see you've got some new te group that's starting to you just get wind of that and see if you're reading about someone and their plans to come like who my method of thinking how you could come to anywhere and hurt innocent children or hurt people and blows up and it it it does puzzle me that how brainwashed you can be like see when you're getting that intelligence of people want to do that and kill innocent people kill your own what what do you think then does that make sad to the world is it just a case of you're trying to be cold towards it like you says to find the balance of you're just doing a job because then you've got grandkids you've got kids yeah they be anybody that hurts my kids I know I would die for them I would kill for them it's it's not big man talk it's just natural but as a any father or any man should be a protector but see when you're Gathering that information of people want to hurt your own how how do you deal with that well the the first thing you have to do is if if you get wind of of somebody a Target which you call a Target uh then you you have to look into that particular snippet of information before you even make up your mind that this is a firm Target you have to get collateral information so that you can cross reference it to make sure that this person is actually somebody who who may very well be bad um so therefore it's going to be necessary to look into them then you have to work out well how bad are they what what's proportionate you know do we tap that telephone do we do this all that uh and the case is built and and it takes time so as everything precise where it takes time you don't make decisions straight away no it's very very precise very very well closely planned yes you don't go off half coock like James Bond rushing off into the blue with your Walter PPK knocking off the Buie that's what a little guy from the CIA says he says it's not like us [ __ ] drinking martinis and stand them with suits on they're dressed like little nerds and the standing places just gathering information for months at a time isolated away from everybody nobody knows nothing see when you're doing that job as well if you got to do you judge people do you get taught how to look at people's mannerisms the officers do it's all part of the training and training is massive uh I mean that constantly in training are you learning every day all the officers learning every day learning every day are these guys trained to CO as the SCS guys involved as well like people who get sent off secret missions people who are top of the tree well the the um I mean SAS is are sort of different different yeah yeah yeah I mean that their training is is obviously different they don't like have nothing but respect for what these guys up here is different the way they handle things the way that they've seen things and how cold they are like that's I know a lot of people can struggle with PTSD and but these guys are born different do you think a lot of people are born to be like that to be trained and giv orders to then go and do anything or do you believe you can be trained into being something like that no as like I say I I think it goes back to DNA you think so I I do um I I think yes they're special people that's why they call it special forces and it they when you do the tests and that and a lot of these boys it's not the big strong men who who finish first they tend to see they the ones that broken it do you think it's more in here oh yeah I mean you know I mean you look at the agencies and there are people with first class degrees you know they'll go out meeting agents you know is it see is it that MI6 B in there the Big Green yeah that's that's the MI6 is that where you you went in and worked yeah I I used to work but from both cuz CU Mi other side of the the temps what's it like walking in does it does you just love what you done when I first when I I just become the know what wear off when when MI5 set up their building across the temps cuz it was a new building we used to work in another building and I I went in for the first time time and they had the new uh security cubicles you walk in and the door closes behind you and won't open up until you're let through it wouldn't open up I said Why didn't it open up they said you're too heavy so they slightly recalibrated that because you what you about sex3 sex I was 63 yeah he shrunk real old day I sh is there a lot of stuff that we don't see on news and the newspapers that we don't hear that a lot of these people stop the intelligence that you never hear about of course you see absolutely minimum amount do you look at the average person guy like myself or people who just walk about the street who are oblivious and sometimes maybe envious because they don't actually know what's going on or would you do you just think okay that was just the job that you took on I think I'm un imaginative I didn't doesn't strike me like that at all no I mean I I one of the things 's privileged to work with the officers themselves I mean that that's huge I think one's lucky to be all have such an interesting job um but then hopefully you know I mean a lot of people are unlucky they don't have interesting jobs but you have a fascinating job I love my job I mean you mean yeah ab and you're incredibly good at it thank you I mean I have to think quite a lot when you ask these questions yeah because I don't want to ask I'm not going to ask silly questions I know I'm not going to get the answers for but I want to ask enough where people can get adjust of what goes on do you know what I mean I don't trick people up and ask stupid questions whe there's going to be Vital Information given away with some Russian spy watching this or whatever do you know I mean and you'll be on you'll be on at 1 million per anyway you would have read me at te and understood me anyway no you you yeah you've made a very good Agent Runner if I say [ __ ] and give me a few quid listen I'm all yours because police officers have said to me you'd be a [ __ ] great police officer you would absolutely that friendly environment just yeah in fact I might follow you after this and see if you go into the six building is H but it's just interesting how everybody's got different paths in life yes and like you say the people who just walk along the streets people can only gather information from what you see online on the news but it's not really real either because everything can manipulate things and we do know they tell lies now but a lot of people you've worked firsthand you've seen Terror attacks like you say you got Hur by it because partly the people in there will probably blame themselves because they'll feel as if they never done their job to 100% they've saved lives but they save lives every other day yeah they do you know what I'm saying but again how is so when you see a t attack like and it does happen when was it last when was it 77 M for the big one yeah and was Manchester Manchester oh yeah and they try to do Glasgow yeah [ __ ] try to do Glasgow Airport yes yes and you see the people affected not only the people who have been killed and injured but you know the families and as I said earlier that there's a pretty desperate feeling in the in the agencies at that time you know how was it feeling now cuz when I'm in London I was always a feeling of an ease here I don't know if that's just me but I always feel as if I always bordering something BR you come from glasow EXA I should be a walk that should be like sunshine and peace down here but I just it's just I don't know man it's always an uneasy kind of environment sometimes I used to love it down here but I just feel as if there's something Brewing um I get the same feeling in Bill fast as well B fast I the one good thing is that that um you know they they've got together again at storm on I think that's brilliant really brilliant and uh you know one just hopes they don't get hung up on on unification of course that's out there you know to be discussed and all Earth but really and truly you know there's a lot of work that needs to be done in schools and hospitals and all the rest of it in in Northern Ireland they're good people love I've Got Friends in both sides and I'm not that's not my field I'm a scotman but I just love because they it's m it just breaks your heart to see them fight against each other but both wanted to fight and that's ingrained in the Irish like they are tough bastards man they're lovely [ __ ] tough they all tough for the grandparents to the kids like they're just there's so like we talk about the DNA there's definitely something in our DNA they're just strong if you're going to war you would want Irish with you because you do yeah that I I I I do have gosh I love the Irish yes yeah I don't understand the [ __ ] what they say they probably saying the same about me but they're just something about some they're wild different yeah but they get on with life too you know I I I think they've got a massive future whether together or apart you know it's that's up to them yeah hopefully and hopefully everything stays peaceful there so so yes so see you're in that job then like I know we T we touch on human trafficking now how big is human trafficking people say now it's now took over the drug trade I don't know in terms of that statistic but it is huge of course and there's so much money to be made out of it and and you know underneath the human trafficking there's all the rest of it you know prostitution and child trafficking and all the rest of it is pretty horrific harvesting the the organs so how as a grand as a father yourself and grandfather how was it bad' 7s ' 80s because it just seems to be more popular now of how luxurious how luxurious the this business in trade actually is because there's millions of people going missing every year and like you say it's not just prostitution it's they're harvesting their their organs their heart their kidneys which is big on the black market so it's not just a case of selling a kilo of coke which you'll never see again with kids or and human trafficking it's a revolving door with the money that you can make yeah and I think that's interesting because one talks about countering uh narcotics and of course you Counter Narcotics and off they go into human trafficking you counter human trafficking and off they go into fraud I mean it's interesting what a couple of days ago they just set up the stop um lookout for fraud um initiative that's just come from from the government and the police and um the National Crime agency that now costs the UK people about 8 billion a year just fraud online so therefore we've had to move to counter that in a big way same with trafficking the the world uh because we no longer have barriers and we have these things called um boundaries or or or between States but you know really forget it everything is on the internet now your major crimes on the internet boundaries are are porous people can get through them quite easily uh and that is just great for Crime great for criminals and certainly since Eastern Europe was let loose you know the breakup of the Soviet Empire I think there's been a big increase in in crime from that what do you think of putting borders up where people can't come across the waters and just immigrating and you feel as if there should be more to protect your own without because there's so much D you don't you can't just Point pinpoint certain people who do certain crimes CU every color Every Nation everybody does crimes in every country but should there be more borders and more control of who's coming in and out no what we need is more cooperation I mean one of the problems in in five and six when when I was there was tracking um terrorists across borders and you'd find that uh the laws are all different I mean for instance you you you can't use telephone intercept here to prosecute a terrorist you'd go over to Belgium for instance and you might not be able to use an agent without disclosing their identity so all these laws are different and you are trying to deal with International crime and these organizations just take advantage of it we would actually have to pinpoint a jurisdiction where the law worked better for us to prosecute a terrorist and actually try and sort of maneuver them there than having them prosecuted in the UK so what should change then should the international cooperation so should be you think one law kind of one understanding of if you should you think they could use the British law if you went to another country and say we can use this law as we British like for instance the laws here is are different from everywhere else but if you know as an international criminal do you think there should be a green light to say let us charge them with the laws that we have in the UK or would that just be a freefor all for then I a freefor all yeah I I think it line though isn't it to then so why does not everybody work together then is it money or is it what is it is involved national pride is that what it is because listen Britain's invaded over 90% of the world is are we late anywhere have we got a rough understanding or do people always try and feel as if try to take from them well it it it's really curious I remember one of the things that that we used to um love doing was operating in France or Belgium or somewhere like that because overseeing this difficulty that I explained earlier about converting intelligence into evidence to use in court MH in France but say particularly France we used to go to um a guy called the examining judge and we could go to him and he would we would would give us give him all the evidence that we had all the intelligence we had and he would sift through it as we were going through the operation and he would tell us at that particular Point yes you can use this evidence to go to trial no you needn't use that evidence because it's not going to help the defense so instead of us guessing or trying to anticipate what the court would do this guy would actually tell us as we went along exactly how the trial would progress does that make sense yeah I thought everybody would be working together though H when I suggested this to uh an MP who I won't name he said you know he said if you suggested that we use the French system in the United Kingdom you'd hear the laughter from parliament in Paris that's the sort of attitude one has to fight against that's [ __ ] strange I thought everybody would be controlled by the same organized I thought it would be one person calling the shots from everywhere I thought the borders and all that [ __ ] was just all an exaggeration of oh yeah there's politics and people this but that actually happens there is and that's why you know I said earlier sorry I didn't mean to yeah know that's fine that's why I said earlier you know no it's not a question of borders it's a question of smashing them down so that's so there's a lot of things that there so much red tape for people to then make moves on certain things because of pride of no you're not getting in or your legal system isn't as good as our legal system you know it it it's all that see that's why I thought they had the secret meetings to say okay this and that so I thought everything would have been not a free-for-all but an understanding okay just go and get them so they can actually stop you from going in and working there as well well you I mean at the agency level and the police level there's cooperation it it it's at the legal level that one gets the problems mhm uh the law level legislation level see I thought it would have been some European courts or some system to say listen let them in there' have been people higher up just to let someone go on with it yeah wouldn't that be good I thought I genuinely again that just shows you the lack of intelligence and the lack of knowledge that's one can have to then understand what actually goes on in the system I think that was probably the hardest part of my job actually is that the most frustra part of the job well not distress but I think it it was hard trying to get people to understand you know in in in the Ministries if you like or the Departments of state that uh hanging on to the British common law in the face of a world which actually depends largely on on um the Civil codes that they that they have uh isn't necessarily in our best interests is Britain still a force oh yes yeah still a strong force yeah because obviously with the lack of funding and I don't know if we got many in the militaries we used to have as well I just know what why why are we a strong force then is that because the intelligence obviously the SCS are a strong force in their own right as well but obviously lack of numbers when you look at China and Russia and other countries but why are we a strong force well special forces are hugely respected wherever you go absolutely I mean they are top to I believe absolutely I've spoke to guys in the Navy Seals and and they listen I was always going to be everybody's thinks are B another but they're the SS are massively respected they're brilliant uh the intelligence agencies are recognized as you know the best I I I'd like to say that yeah you're going to say that anyway but yeah going to be biased because you're walk to yeah no I can't I've got to be balanced yeah but a balanced view yes I mean they're they're immensely impressive um I think also it it it's that you you you spoke earlier about you know are we proud to be British and and we were sort of talking about well actually we we we like to sort of get on with people on the whole um if anybody comes and pokes our I will react um but on the whole we like to get on with people and I think I think the world generally looks on us as being the balancers certainly in the EU when we were there and Dad talk to me about getting out that's so outrageous um we were the balancers between the various States and people look to us to do that and they still do in the International Community I me I was in the foreign office going out on multilateral conferences here you lots of States um the Brits we usually look to to sort of create some sort of balance mhm so a lot of people would think the opposite though because we have been so ruthless in the past and kind of like I say invading over 90% of the world but it's a strong it's a strong [ __ ] Nation it's very strong and it's it's mad to think because of the PO the population here it's not that big no no no no Ian we do punch well above our weight there's no doubt about that in the International Community so what again with bre what so you were against that oh yes I was mad to come out of the EU why that there I think people were misled they thought we could all go back to being this sort of yea nation state it just doesn't work in the International Community anymore do you think that's damaging towards the people in the UK with travel and money and yes of course cuz I know all this stuff now is getting it's more for people's businesses aren't the same as well because stocks not getting delivered on time and everything's kind of upside down yes I mean if you were in Europe would you really look to trade with us if with all the difficulties if you could trade somewhere else easier what makes the world better cooperation balance meeting up talking hearts and Minds trying to see the other person's point of view try and to match it to your own who do you think should be in a UK I don't go politics do you not no why a because you couldn't really do it if you're working in the foreign office you had to keep a completely open mind yeah you're you're advising whichever government is there at the day and you had to keep balanced I keep going back to that I'm sorry that's that's you're late them that to stay is that just to support anything that's happening in the UK just to stay just not get involved to give to give balance no it's really to give balance advice I think the other thing is uh as a lawyer one likes to work from Facts yeah where can you actually get the facts unless you're operating in in in the system itself um newspapers all have a a slant and you have to sort of try and work out what what and I prefer to stay out to stay out of politics and and um keep my thoughts to myself would you have done any job for any 5 M6 well I mean you certainly wouldn't do a job that was contrary you know that was illegal yeah of course but can did do you is a job for us just to do or can you reject it if you didn't like it yeah you could do you didn't know no I mean I think the beauty of working with them is the fact you're working with people who are um who are bright enough clever enough and and understand um that if you're going to do something illegal all you're doing is Wrecking it you're you're you're just wrecking your investigation I mean a because you'll never get it caught B because you'll be found out and that undermines the whole of the whole of the agency um I mean at the time when I joined uh we had betany who was a spy who went to the Russians and we had this idiot Peter who had written a stupid book that the government tried to stop this undermined the agency yeah what happened Peter right what was he wrote a book that came he had a bee in his Bonnet about um some I think it was Hollis who he thought was a a Russian spy and he wanted to write a book and he was told he couldn't so he went to Australia and wrote it from there and of course the British government tried to stop it but when you look at the Peter right book it was nothing more than gossip really you he was a strange person so again I'm surprised again the British never had P to stop anything I thought it know when people get cancelled or when they can do this and do that I thought there was so much power out there that anything could be got so it surprises me that it was allowed allowed to release the book in Australia where they've just let it happen without no ping a plug on it that's for me I just everybody Wasing together like when you talk about France and everybody laughing because they think [ __ ] me British like it's just puzzling when again that's how these podcasts are important for give people are understanding it not everybody's in agreement with each other no well it's was freedom of speech he he was I mean provided he wasn't actually damaging National Security and there was nothing in that book where you could say it damaged National Security again it was it was on the Cur of um everything was dreadfully secret during the Cold War nothing was ever talked about nobody talked about MI5 or MI6 in those days you know and if you did you you know you got into trouble um so the sea change was absolutely massive from from um we couldn't even prosecute terrorists in open court we couldn't prosecute terrorists back then before I joined the agency why because we couldn't convert intelligence into evidence they didn't have the the structure to do it they weren't legislated for how can you go you could go to a secret Court to prosecute spies with evidence um but you couldn't go into an open court and if you're dealing with terrorists it's a totally different animal to dealing with um spies you must have an open court if you're dealing with terrorism because otherwise you're feeding the terrorists everything's secret therefore the terrorists say if it's all secret then obviously they're lying but if you go to open court and prosecute a terrorist and the evidence is there for everybody to see you're you're much more plausible as an agency so we had to change all that what's it like like working with terrorist what's it like who's that feeling that that's done to the officers I mean that you you just feel here's someone who's doing something something wrong now we must try and bring that person to trial try and convict them and therefore from my perspective that was the objective one didn't feel anything other than this terrorist has rights therefore I have to respect them do you respect them yeah terrorists no no cuz I watched an interview and you said something about terrorists should have rights or something what was it he says terrorists terrorists do have rights yeah what sort of Rights they have a right to life uh unless um it can be taken away in terms of self-defense rather like Israel and and Hamas at the moment they have a right to a family life you can't go and um do things to their family uh to to get at them um they have a right to free speech so providing they're not privatizing terrorism they can say what they're like ex limitations everybody should have Free Speech but there's a fun line between free speech and hate speech of course absolutely they can't do that not at all they have a right not to be tortured uh and that's where the United States went so wrong with water boarding doesn't do anybody any good anyway operationally but um you know no terrorist should be waterboarded what was that uh when they put into water and half drowned in order to make them talk yeah I always thought the torture tactics was what it was all about if I was a terrorist I'm think [ __ ] him man torture him but it's a that's what I thought it was all about I don't know if that's because of the movies that we watch all through the years and we in our minds we believe that it's all what's real yeah but you actually break it all down we're so far from the truth nobody really knows what goes on over obviously you'll see enough but you'll have that much information that you'll die with which is a good thing again because people would be [ __ ] scared if they actually knew what was going on in in the real world do you think fear is a big part of control on this planet people can be controlled easily with Fe yes that's certainly I agree with that yes yes yes oh blackmail bribery extortion um yeah and just fear for for one's own safety yes MH how long did you work what the intelligence for uh about nine years do you miss it no why well I I I left um because I thought I'd done enough it was a time of massive change and I'd got to the point where the change that I'd done I suppose again that sounds slightly pompous but I'd achieved what I wanted to achieve there were one or two other things that I wanted to achieve but I saw that I could couldn't because I wasn't going to persuade people from within so I came out and persuaded them from outside with the knowledge that you have in the Le that you've LED what do you think life is David I think I think one one's just got to get on with it I I mean some people do have major problems o obviously um w w with the awful things that happened to them but I think my wife has a brilliant expression for it um she was at boarding school as well from seven years so you know we match you got an understanding of each other we have total understand yeah it's that sort of boarding school syndrome where you've got to get on or die it's like [ __ ] life man like you say you've just got to keep showing up you just got to keep going yes and in this environment I don't want to bring people down cuz I've battled mental health and I've had drink and drugs in the past would have escaped but I come a stage where I done [ __ ] this man I need to make changes you said you had escaped mhm my view of that is no you didn't Escape you got yourself together which takes a huge amount of Courage I find that impressive I really do it's the sort of Courage you see in the sort of agencies you know yeah don't don't say you escaped you didn't you did it yourself and that's hugely impressive yeah I appreciate that no true how how important is it David to have a good woman by your side huge absolutely huge because they keep you out of the ivory tar what I call the ivory tar you know oh I'm right how me I should change my name to [ __ ] I Tower that's me I think I've got ego I've got [ __ ] issues where I struggle I think to commit if I'm honest I think back in the days well I think you were married at 1718 and you were free flowing you worked at it when it was a struggle when the [ __ ] hit the fan you spoke it out he's maybe had a little argument in time to time but you spoke out you didn't leave everybody's walking away from each other now David everybody's soft where there's no communication that we spoke about earlier and that saddens me I don't again social media comes into play because there's so many options and we've got screens just for of women and bikinis and everybody's in contact with each other so again for your own perspective is for a good woman in life do you feel that gives you like you see balance yes absolutely yeah and and she's balanced I mean her her philosophy that was taught her by her her head Mistress of school was life is tough why should you think it might not be and if things are hard go and scrub a floor don't start wallowing in self-pity MH which I think is a I think those two really do help get one through life do you think we can feel sorry for ourselves too much yeah feel as if the word was against us mhm but you've actually been to these third world countries you've seen what real struggle is you think we've got it too easy no I I think there are a lot of people here who really do have a a hard life there's no doubt about that at all um the difficulty is trying to see how one can help them more you know and it's not just a question of trucking cash at it it's a question of more than that it's a question of going out and meeting them and and and trying to help them their problems not that I'm saying that I do that but I think that there are people who can do that or are really good at it I mean you yourself reach out to people and and get them to talk and you get some sort of understanding of what's going on I find that very impressive thank you yeah but I just it's an because um everybody's different yes it's an understanding of everybody's life whether it's a criminal whether it's the agent whether it's the SCS guy the homeless guy the billionaire everybody's different because they've got different levels of trauma but I've I've spoke to people with 100% worse trauma than me who are happier than me as well so everything's to do with how you perceive the world and how you want to make the changes to then be better at it nothing changes unless you do no and I'm glad you said that because I I do agree with that entirely I I think it is done to the individual and but going back to it some individuals have it a hell of a lot harder than others but they've created a better future than the ones who've not had it hard sure I I think that's right and as I say it all goes back to scrubber floor MH you know just get on with it get on with it do something yes that's the for me as well for anybody watching or listeners just show up just push forward whether it's walking or cutting the Garden or painting the house just do something to take your mind off of what you're struggling with but again A lot of people are DPP theel into [ __ ] drugs and drink and crazy [ __ ] there online and they're just becoming more lost to their true potential and everybody's got massive potential and that's the scary thing everybody's got greatness and everybody's got something special in them that they can dig deep and make changes and doesn't matter what age you there people in their 70s ' 80s 90s who are learning new instruments learning new languages [ __ ] doing new things where it's never over until it's over no no and and you're absolutely right everybody has an ability to do something and Achieve something whatever it is it doesn't matter matter how many books have you wrote David three and what are the what's the three books the latest ones coming out in in April yeah and that's uh catcher's first operation is that the followup to your first yes the followup to the first and you're going to do four of them is that correct yes that's right where can people buy your books at water stones and uh Amazon and uh hatchards in London and I think various other bookshops yeah where do you go forward for the future David well right next or in the starting the next book um which is the Stringer which is set in Siberia which we thought we'd go to a cold country since the last two books were in hot ones [ __ ] go to Scotland then that's very good for Scotland is a is that what you're finding your sort of piece in your new kind of driving life is been an offer yes I we we as I say we because uh um you know I found that you know my granddaughter invited me down to talk about spies you know I hadn't sort of thought about much about it and it was it was at that point you know she's she's a feisty kid and just reminded me so much of the uh uh women in in the agencies you know they are so good that sort of very talented on the one hand but as I said you do not want to meet them on a hockey pitch yeah on the other hand so yes and we spent sometime Carrie and I right together wife and uh we'd spent some time um after the first book which we published about 15 years ago we got caught into writing short films infomercials for corporations you know comedies or dramas and uh you know sort of thought well yes that's all great fun but why not write a book and that that the Catalyst was going down to talking to these kids at school and they were all fascinated yeah and you sort of thought oh yeah CA would be a great and she's Russian and you know Russians are nice people I like Russians yeah yeah like I see I've come across every culture and every basically near every country now and I've traveled all over the world and it's I I get on me people no I could sit anywhere I could genuinely sit anywhere and have a conversation and have a laugh and I'm surprised because my accent is so strong I think people may just be laughing laughing at the accent and thinking what the [ __ ] is this guy saying but whatever it is it's working and you have got a fascinating story and an interesting story with the people you've worked with the intelligence that you have of way the world operates and people are intrigued by it because there's not many people speak out against MI5 and MI6 and to get the clearance of it it shows you how well respected you are in that field to not say anything stupid or betray yourself because everything will be calculated with you you'll be a very good chess player where you're already m steps ahead everybody else because in that job they only want the best from you and they want the best of the best so you've lived it you've learned from it you've experienced yourself from it and you're a top guy from it as well which is why I say you'd be a very good Agent runner cuz you use flattery perfectly good on it it's brilliant yeah thank you but again that's why you're the best cuz you see through my [ __ ] you know what I mean if it was of you an MI5 an MI6 every time i' be a [ __ ] job is a for anybody that's watching David that's in a life struggle right now what advice would you have for them I'd have those just just keep going look for the best that you can possibly see and go for it and if it make if you have to make a change make it just just make it don't think too much about life David do you like to finish up on anything else no just to say thank you very it's been an absolute pleasure I think I've said far too much well it's been a pleasure thanks very much thanks for your time coming on I wish you nothing but the best for the future and good luck with the books David thanks very much indeed

Channel: Anything Goes With James English

Views: 79,199

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Id: SOG0GmKts_I

Length: 120min 8sec (7208 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 04 2024