My theory here... Oh, I don't want you guys to miss it, is at the moment I do something to Rich, it travels, it goes through your hand, all the way over. Notice how his lips kind of quiver a little bit. Do me a favor, David, wake up, open your eyes, open your eyes. What did you just feel? My chin.
What? I don't know why they're still touching fingers by the way, it's so weird. What I loved about magic, was the instant response, and that's what the rush is of performing live. Like some of the things on "America's Got Talent" that were live, 15 million people are watching, the producers know how I'm doing this. And they say to me, "Wait, what happens if it goes wrong, you only have four minutes, it's live TV, we can't extend, we've commercials." And I go, "That's the rush." People of the internet, here we are. How's it going? Good to have you, welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Oz Pearlman. Oz is a world class mentalist, which we're gonna get into, as well as a highly accomplished marathoner, and ultra runner. In 2015, Oz came out of nowhere, to capture hearts and minds on a little TV show you might have heard of called "America's Got Talent". Where week after week, he performed mind blowing, never before seen mentalism routines, finishing in third place, out of thousands and thousands of acts. He blows minds everywhere he goes, "The Today Show", "Ellen" "Jimmy Fallon", and today I can guarantee you, he's gonna blow yours. Unbelievable, I call bullshit, because I think you are magic. (laughs) I really don't wanna spoil this one any further, beyond simply imploring you to please, please stick around at the end, because this wizard performs the craziest sorcery imaginable. Oh my God!.
What? How?
It's not even a common name. It's just a reveal for the ages that left, not just me, but my entire team absolutely stunned, and breathless, how's that for a tease? Okay, so hit that Subscribe button, and please enjoy me going down the mentalism rabbit hole with Oz Pearlman. If you could sit down in interview with anyone today, that's ever lived, I'm sure there's a long list, but this is the person that popped in your head first, right? Correct.
That's it. I want you to look through and find a photo, make sure it's not on video, I don't want you to think I can see this for what he's doing, and find a photo, a photo's gonna be worth a thousand words on this one, of this person. Okay.
You got one? Mm-hmm.
You could keep the photo, I guess, but just don't show anyone else around you, close the screen, lock it, just make sure there's no way I can see it. All right.
I don't want anyone to see it, I don't want them to think, like, "No way." So before we started the podcast, first of all, thanks for coming here- Thanks for having me.
I'm really looking forward to getting into this with you. There's so many cool things to talk to you about, before we even started, you had me doing a whole bunch of stuff. I suspect that at some point, you wanna do some kind of reveal, or, you know, blow my mind with something, we can do that at the end, or at the beginning- That's the plan, no-
What do you wanna do? I like to end big.
Okay, we'll end big. Well, why don't you kick it off, by just explaining what mentalism is, so we're all clear, on kind of the playing field in which you operate? I think it gets sort of conflated with magic, and mind reading, and tarot card reading, and all kinds of other stuff. So, lay the groundwork on what it is that you do? So it's interesting, 'cause so I would never believed if you would've told me I was gonna be a mentalist, this is not like the career path I thought I was gonna be on, which is shocking to this day. It's kind of like magic of the mind. So everybody can visualize a magician, because you think, somebody picks a card, and they're gonna find it with fast hands, right? That's kind of the dynamic, slight of hand. So what I do is more analyzing how people think, reverse engineering their decision making, and some elements of body language reading, psychology, and honestly group dynamics, social dynamics. Knowing how people behave, and studying that for decades, and then knowing how to entertain people, that's the key word, it's entertainment. I'm not psychic, I don't pretend to know the future, I would've won the lottery by now Rich, between me and you. But it's reading people, and making it very entertaining, and doing it in such a way that it's not explainable, the key is, you watch magic, and you know somebody did something fast, my hands don't move fast, I just do stuff where I'm very good at guessing things. You're very much very much an expert at this though, I watched a whole ton of your videos, I watched all the "America's Got Talent" performances, and "Ellen", and "The Today Show", and all this (indistinct), you have an incredible like stage presence and command of what you're doing, and it's impossible for me as a layperson, to try to deconstruct what the cues are, this sort of foundation that you're laying. And you're so in this flow of what you're doing, but I have to imagine that you're paying, such close attention to, you know, what's coming out of the person's mouth, how you're kind of queuing them up, how you're leading them down a certain path, and if there's something not going your way, you have to kind of redirect it, and land that plane in the place where you wanna stick that landing, right? So it seems like you're kind of reverse engineering all of this, like, you know where you wanted it to end up, and you have to take this person on a journey, that's gonna land them there, without anybody being the wiser. Very well put, like exactly that. This is the best way to describe it. Think of a movie with a director's cut that you never saw, right? The director points the camera at what they want you to see, but there's other elements of the movie. So what I do, it's very funny, because it's not linear, not to be like too in the weeds. I don't usually just say, "Hey, think of this, and I'm gonna guess this." I kind of take you on a path where amazing things happen, and you don't really know exactly what's going to take place, and that's the advantage for me. That's why I'm not working for the FBI profiling people, or like at a casino, there's certain things I do, that give me a tactical advantage, in life if you will, but it's also done on the course of entertainment, where I can't just go into a casino, and rack up winnings. I can do certain things, but they know how to neutralize my advantage. But in essence, yeah, I know how to observe people, I generally know how you're gonna behave. And even in the moment where you think, "I'm gonna change my mind, I'm gonna do something different right now." I know you're gonna do that. Yeah, we're gonna get into how you know that, and I know you're gonna be cagey about what you're willing to reveal, but I'm gonna work on trying to get you to divulge a little bit. Right, spill the beans. But you have done some kind of financial predictions, and you know, the Super Bowl, and final four stuff, like you go on "Squawk Box" so that's a different animal, than like reading an individual. So that does get into predictions, and sorcery. So some of that stuff was straight up, like the way I describe it is when I'm doing a show, it's a combination, it's like routines, tricks, it's all the above, there's psychology. But I know that a lot of stuff's gonna work, the predictions that I've done for the most part, it's like I'm sailing without a safety net, like the Super Bowls, I got a bunch of 'em, right? And then I got one wrong, and it's like, what are you gonna do? And everyone's like, "Oh my God, you got it wrong." I go, "Hey, I'm not psychic." So what I did is kind of analyze the way anybody would handicap things. And the final four was amazing, I mean, I nailed the final four, so again, all of these things, that's why people started betting on it, and I had to put a disclaimer out there, being like, "Hey, bet at your own risk." 'Cause eventually this house of cards might crumble, and I couldn't get every single one right. But technically speaking, I got a lot more right than if you were flipping coins. Did you bet on it yourself? I definitely bet on stuff. You did?
Yeah. And how does that play into... We're gonna get into your background, but does that play into, you know, the stock market and investments, and things like that? I'd like to think I'm somewhat of a savvy investor, because my background is working on Wall Street, but I'm actually much more of a vanilla, boring type person when it comes to investments. I don't like taking big swings and risks, I've got kind of a thought on low cost index ETFs, growing your wealth slowly over time, consistently, but with some, you know, kind of what I would describe as asymmetrical bets. Like right now, cryptocurrencies, I think is a no-brainer for people to invest in, but you know, that's a topic that's a little controversial. Right, that's its own podcast. Yeah, for sure.
The one performance of yours that got me more than probably all the others, was the one on "America's Got Talent", where the panel had to guess the number of gumballs in the jar- Oh, nice, man.
And then all the numbers lined up to be this long number that you had predicted. And I can't even wrap my head around, like how you pulled that off. Oh man, thank you.
It's unbelievable. Yeah, Nick cannon reaches in, and there's gumballs, and they take out, and there's a receipt in there, and the receipt, the item number- For the purchase of the gumballs themselves. Exactly. So, man, it's one of those things, what I wanna do is a one, two, three punch. I wanna do something that you kind of think you figured out, you're like, "Man, I think I kind of know how you might have done that." Then the next one's like, "Oh wow, I don't know." And the third one is totally unexpected, just a kick to the brain, and you're just like, "I'm done." So that's why I kind of like to, all my setups on TV if you kind of watch them, are just like, boom, boom, boom, and the biggest one at the end. Yeah, I'll link up that video, as well as a bunch of other videos of yours in the show notes. But yeah, ostensibly, the number on the receipt for the gum balls, lined up perfectly with the series of numbers, that if you went down the panel in order, like the exact series of numbers. Right.
It was unbelievable. Thanks. Think of a number between one to 100. Mm-hmm.
You got it? Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna sneak over here. Okay, done. Does the number have some sort of significance, or just kind of popped in your head? Just popped in my-
All right, no, good. Okay, so, hear me out. When people do significant number numbers, there's like a reason, didn't feel. I felt like maybe he did a birthday, but then he seemed excited, probably higher. What would Dave do? Free spirit, probably an odd number. All right, go with this, grab the pen. I wrote 21, I wrote 21, I crossed it out, was it 21? I'm gonna be super pissed. Mm-mmm.
Blake, you think it was higher too? What did you go with? Tell me, tell Blake, tell Rich, tell us all. What are you thinking, what's that number? 65.
Did I tell you higher, tell him what I wrote? You saw, tell him what I wrote? I crossed out 21, I wrote down 65, I knew he'd go odd. (laughs) Whoa! I wanna work our way up to "America's Got Talent", so let's start at the beginning. You're from Israel, but you moved to Michigan as a young person? Yup, so I moved to the States when I was three. I was born during a war, and then my dad was an engineer, and he got a job here. Kind of, they do an exchange program, 'cause everyone in Israel goes to the military, at 18, everybody does. And so he was in the Navy, he was designing engines, and he did like an exchange program. We were supposed to come for two years, and then we ended up loving it, and staying in the States. Where in Michigan? So I moved a couple places before, but I ended up middle school, high school and college, I lived in Farmington Hills, Michigan, kinda outside Detroit. I was born in Grosse Pointe. We always do this, I don't know if they'll see this on the podcast, but we hold up our hand, and point where in Michigan, all the Michiganos will know, and that's how I describe where I was. Yeah, all my cousins, and extended family are Michigan people. My parents went to U of M.
Go blue. That whole thing.
Me too. So I'm the black sheep because I came out to California, but you know, amazing blue. Wait, what's wrong with you, you wanted beautiful weather, Rich? You wanted sunlight, some of the year, what's wrong with you Rich Roll?. Go blue, right?
Yup. My grandfather swam for University of Michigan, under Coach (indistinct), and the natatorium is called the (indistinct). Oh really?
At University of Michigan. Yeah.
They have a strong team, I think. Yeah, so he was a legend, yeah, they've built an incredible program there. I mean, you went to U of M, right? Yup, I went to Michigan. You probably were there when Phelps was there. I'm trying to think of the overlap. How old are you?
I'm to turning 40 this year. Yeah, you're probably a little older than him. Yeah, I'm older than him, 'cause yeah, he was in '08, man, I'll never forget that Olympics. I watched every even he was in, man, that was just like eight, eight, eight. I remember that opening ceremony, and I think that was the best Olympics ever, in my life, where he won every medal, and he out touched that guy. And like, I was screaming, I was in my house, or at people's homes, just like yelling, screaming, I think that was the best Olympics ever. And before you got into running, you were a swimmer? I was a swimmer, I was a competitive swimmer as a kid. I was never good, I started school when I was five, and then I skipped fourth grade, a little bit of nerd. So I was always two years younger than everybody I was friends with, and I was really little. So I think actually in hindsight, I'm still not big, like, you know, 5'7 and 3 1/4, I like to add that 3 1/4 in, very important, but I still don't think I would've been a good swimmer, but I got better as we increased, because I think at a certain age, like I was 16 when everyone was 18 around me, and if I had those extra years, I think I would've gotten better, and I got to be a decent freestyler. Right, that was your stroke. Freestyle, and I could do very strong at fly, but only for a quick period. Like if I was in the medley relay, I could crush a 50 fly. I was almost as quick at a 50 fly as I was 50 free, because I wouldn't breathe. We used to do those shooters, do you remember those shooters, where you go underwater to one side completely no breath, and then back, and then you have on an interval, and you have maybe five seconds to just get yourself to just absolute depletion. I would say swim workouts are probably the hardest ones I've ever had in my life, where at the end of a workout, I would be in the shower on the floor. Even though it's the high school bathroom floor, which is horrendously disgusting, because I couldn't stand up. Yeah, well, swimming teaches you how to suffer, right? So much.
And that definitely plays into, you know, being an ultra marathoner, you already have that background and familiarity with how to push yourself. And there's something about being in the pool, where you can push yourself really hard, but you're not gonna get injured like you would in running. Like if you went out and killed it every day in running, the way that people do in the pool, you'd end up with a problem pretty quickly. Yeah, you're absolutely right. So in running, it becomes more about holding back, and conservation and knowing when to choose your moments to go hard. And swimming had something to it, 'cause I did cross country for one season, and I hated it. I was the worst one on the team, not figuratively, literally, I was the worst person on the team. My coach later on, when I started like running and winning marathons, this guy was in shock. He goes, "Wait, Oz?" He thought it was impossible, he thought it was a practical joke or an April Fools, because I was the guy who not only was the worst, I brought the morale of the team down. Like, I and my friend, we would cheat. In Michigan, there's mile blocks, you know how 12 mile, 11 mile, like the movie "8 Mile"? We knew that during part of our workout, we would run by my buddy's house, so we would sneak into his house, we would play GoldenEye, we would watch out the window to see when the other guys came back, and we would quickly hyperventilate, throw water on our face, and run the last half mile with them full speed. So I was actually destroying part of the team ethic, because I would be like, "Let's go play GoldenEye at your house bro." And it was very funny. Undermining the whole thing. Well, when did he become aware? Just so people who are watching or listening know, you're a 2/23 marathoner, right? That's my PR, yeah.
Yeah. That's unbelievable. Is that what you just ran in New York? No, I wish, not bad, I ran 2/29. 2/29, okay, yeah. And 23 was a couple years ago? 2/23 Was about five years ago. It was right before I had my first kid, well, my wife had our first kid, but yeah. (indistinct) kids.
Kids, man. All goes out the window. Oh man did it go out the window for a little bit, I still managed to keep it somewhat together, but after our first kid, I just let training slip. And you know that feeling when you think you're still in shape, so you go after it, but you're not in the shape you were? Oh, I know that one. (Oz laughs) And you go out, and the first half marathon is just based on the fact that you have so much miles in your legs, that I just crushed the first half, and then a nice dose of humble pie on the second half. Yeah, yeah. All right, so you sucked it running, you had some background in swimming, you were a precocious kid, kind of advanced academically. Yeah.
Where does the mentalism, and the magic start to creep into your fascination? So my folks got divorced when I was 13, which was like, I know for some people a very traumatic type event. In my case, it set me on a path, where I needed something to fill the emotional void, is what I would describe it as, to not really deal with the family tumultuousness. And I had just seen a magician on a cruise ship, these things happen very close in time, and I was obsessed, and that's kind of my personality in general, is when I get into something it's full tilt, I never half ass it. I went to the library, I checked out every book, I read them cover to cover, I started just practicing card tricks, literally 18 hours a day. From the time I woke up until night, I had waterproof cards to practice in the shower. Wow!
Psychotic. Yeah, the nerdy magic kid, there's nothing worse than that guy. And I actually met a kid, there was a kid who transitioned from being like the magic guy from middle school, to becoming, he was more of what I describe the music guy, his name was Ryan Hertz, I'll never forget this, if he hears this, I'd love it. And I used to drive him crazy, 'cause when we got into high school, he didn't really wanna be as into magic, because he was known as a magician, and I would tirelessly like bother this kid, "Teach me a trick, teach me a trick." And with magic you kind of have to prove yourself, it's something where people don't give you the secrets, until they know that you're really serious. Do you know what I mean? You only teach other magicians tricks, and with mentalists, it's even more of a close knit network, where you don't really share things, unless you kind of know other people have, I don't know, the credentials or the experience, or they're, I don't know, know one of us, so to speak. And so over time, he started kind of sharing stuff with me, and he saw that I was doing this for real. And I just started doing it. My mom at some point was like, "Hey, I'm not buying all these tricks for you in books, you've gotta go do it." And that was kind of my inner hustle at 14, I went and got a job half a mile from my house, just walked into a restaurant, and booked it, and I started working at that restaurant, and then I started doing kids' shows, and I was doing this all the time to make money. Just right out of the gate- About a year in.
Like knew this is what you wanted to do, yeah. I never knew that I would do it as a living, 'cause I didn't know that, that was possible. All I saw was David Copperfield on TV, and it's kinda like watching movies, nobody... At least I don't think I could be a movie star, I don't know anyone who's that, so I don't think that's actually possible. Like my archetype is you gotta go be an engineer, or a lawyer, a doctor, you know? But you got that Mark Cuban hustle gene? I think so.
You're a bit of a salesman. For sure.
Yeah. I'm 100%, I almost don't think I'm a mentalist, I'm a salesperson who's damn good at selling this product, which is that I can read minds. Yeah, and where does that come from? Like is that a reflection of like your parents getting divorced, and a desire for attention, or is there some just inbred thing that you have that drives you to succeed? Because you have a big motor inside of you. It would be enough just to have this huge career as a mentalist, but then to layer on top of that, all the ultra marathoning, and all of that, and the level of obsession, and attention to detail that you bring to everything, I mean, that's your superpower, I think, that kind of underscores, and drives all of this. You know, I think that I liked standing out, even as a kid, I like being known for something, and at different stage of my life, I was always kind of known, my greatest fear was to be like, not known. Apathy is the worst thing. If somebody watches my show, and at the end, they go, "I know how you did this, I know how you did that." I don't mind that, that's engagement. Not even like social media, that's like live, I like that you leave there thinking about me, and I wanna be memorable. And so if somebody leaves the show, and it's like a movie that was a popcorn flick, that it went in one ear out the other, and a day later you're like, "Oh, I don't even remember seeing that." That is death to me, that kills me on the inside. If somebody's sitting there on their phone, not paying attention, I need to know what I'm doing that's wrong, that's not capturing their imagination and their attention. And so I think what I loved about magic, was the iterative approach. It's that every time you do it, you get an instant response, it's like stand up comedy. It's not like making a product, like this even, to me, I don't know what's gonna happen with this, people absorb it on their own, and they're gonna listen to it while they're working out, while they're sleeping, while doing a million things, I love the immediate appeal of seeing an audience's reaction, and seeing how I can improve upon it, and that's what the rush is of performing live. And the same with racing, I love the excitement of a race. Right, it's truth. It doesn't lie to you. Yeah.
Like running doesn't lie to you, and the response of the audience is gonna be honest. And I think when I think about what you do, and what I've observed in watching your stuff, that distinguishes you from other people of your ilk, is that you weave into the performance some reveals, you're like, "Here's kind of how I do-" You drip out a few things to let them know, like, "Hey, this is kind of how I do it." You're not gonna tell them anything too major, but you kind of cue them, and I think that creates an emotional connection, where they feel like, "Oh cool, now I'm really alert, 'cause I'm looking for those cues that he's talking about. How he goes from one place to the other, and creates this sort of tapestry, that lands in such a mind blowing place." You nailed it, man.
Yeah. That's what you gotta do, it's like- I mean, I don't see other people doing that though, that level of divulgence, did you come up with that yourself, or? I did it because I'm the biggest skeptic, so it's like funny, I'm the person who watches these things with the eye of a skepticism, and honestly, people that like mentalism, will go down a few paths. One, they'll just like watching it, right? It's kind of a cool thing. And I get a lot of my shows where people say to me, "I don't even like magic, but I love you." And I find that a great compliment, because I'm the same way. When I watch like Copperfield, or somebody do an amazing illusion, a lot of time, I don't know how it works, but it loses me, because I know there's a method. Does that make sense? I know that somehow, whether you created it, or bought it, or something, there's a trick there that you're doing, and I know it. And it's still amazing, and I respect it, and I love magic. But when I'm watching certain things with mentalism that hug the line, like things I've done, that I can tell you for a fact, have a real danger component. Like some of the things on "America's Got Talent" that we're live, 15 million people are watching, the producers know how I'm doing this. And they say to me, "But wait, it could go wrong, this way, this way, this way." Like they're sitting, looking at me, like, "Wait, but don't you understand?" I go, "I do know that." And they go, "Well, what happens if it goes wrong? You only have four minutes, it's live TV, we can't extend, we've commercials." And I go, "That's the rush." What you just said is it, because the fact that you know that, the audience feels that, and you can't fake real, not danger, 'cause I'm not gonna die, you know, I'm not actually getting physically hurt, but I could bob, and it could go absolutely wrong, and that makes me sharpen my focus, and that makes it all the more exciting for the person watching, and for me doing it. And you know that when you watch somebody who's excited, you feel that emotion, you mirror that response. Go through your mind and think of someone, you are very likely to talk to in the next couple weeks. Okay.
You got someone? Yeah, I got someone.
Is it an obvious choice? No, I don't think so. Okay, wanna go with it? Rich, hold onto this for me. Would any of them know this person? Yeah.
Okay. But not an obvious choice. Like if I asked everyone to guess right now, do you think they would know? Oh yeah, they wouldn't know. They wouldn't know? It's so funny, 'cause I'm normally in a jacket, I came right out of the airport, I don't where anything is. Need a pen?
Oh, I got it. Yeah, I had a marker, where'd I put it? We're in a really quiet room, normally if I'm doing an event, like people are boisterous, you can whisper, please don't whisper, I don't wanna hear. Just jot down the person's first name, show them. Okay.
Very important. Rich's got my wallet, make sure he doesn't steal my cash, next, make sure I can't see anything from over here. Let me see. Okay. Got it. All right.
Can I come back? Yeah, you're good.
Fold it again. Okay, fold it again. Just so it doesn't pop right open, whatever. Okay, okay.
You guys saw it? Mm-hmm.
Eat it. I'm totally kidding, he would've done it, this guy's intense. Next best thing, destroy, look, rip, shred, hard eye contact. Rich, make sure I'm (indistinct), hold out your hand. Okay.
He could have thought of a guy or a girl, are we in agreement? Are there any scraps left over? No.
Now you could guess this, because once you see it, you can kind of tell, could have picked a guy or a girl, but I said to him, "Is it somebody obvious?" And then he kind of reacted. And then next, look at the body language, super relaxed still, it's a guy, am I right? Yeah.
Of course, if it was a woman, you'd be a little more excited right now. Would've touched that beard too. Always, always the beard touch, classic, thinking to her, you're going, GQ. Are you going to see him? Which indicates to you that he lives close by, or something like that? Do you guys have plans? 'Cause when I said you're gonna probably talk to this person, or likely just gonna be like a text, what's the vibe on this, do you think you'll see the person? Yeah, I'll go for like-
Open the wallet, please? Open the wallet?
Yeah. We've never met, we've never spoken, 'cause there ain't way that I could have known you'd be here during this. If there's a photo of this guy in there, you're gonna flip out. Yeah.
He was about to get a restraining order. Okay, no I'm kidding. Let's get this (indistinct), Jason, you do it. Last thing you get to help, the zipper. Come on over, come on close, open up the little zipper please? And my business card, it says my name, my number, but I wrote something on the back, Blake, read it to him?
Say hello to (indistinct) for me. Oh my God.
What? How?
It's not even a common name. I know that's the thing, I'm like, there's no way he's gonna guess his name, how, what?
Let me see it. (laughs) That's crazy. So where does it first kind of creep in to your life in a professional way. I mean, you go through high school, you're at University of Michigan, I assume you're doing this at parties and stuff like that.
Totally. Yeah.
Picking up girls. This is like when you're 14, and suddenly you do a trick, and the girls like lights up, I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm sold." Right.
But I had this thing, where at 16 I finished high school, my mom moved back to Israel, my dad had like another woman, they split up, and just a lot of drama, let's just say, and I was on my own. When I say on my own, like I supported myself in college, so it became only a thing where I need to figure out who's paying for tuition, and all these things. And I that's when you say the hustle, some of it is born of necessity, when I gotta pay bills, and I was just turning 17 after freshman year. And so magic was one way that I could do very well, and earn money, and also it created my drive, where there is no playbook in entertainment. There's not like a, "Hey, read this, and now you'll be successful." You gotta make things happen. So I was a constant networker. I would be places, I would be doing stuff, handing out my business cards, and I kind of learned how to sell, ever since I was 14, how to approach a table of people that are eating food, that don't know you that are like, "Who is this kid? What does he want? Is he good?" I started to know how to deconstruct people's inner dialogues, monologues of like, what they're thinking, and just like a sales tactic, how do you neutralize their thoughts that are negative before they happen, so that by the time you leave, they want more of you. It is kind of, if you ever heard of pickup artistry, like the people that know how to... It's not for picking up, but like sales dynamics, negotiation skills, how to read a room, all of those things. I didn't really read books, I just kind of learned them over time, because I just did so many shows when I was a kid. and learned to deal with rejection very well. And most people are so fearful, and I learned that very soon, rejection's not a big deal. It's something to embrace and learn from, and then get better at, so I got really good at that. Right, so you're going into restaurants, and pitching to owners, let me do my thing.
Yup. And then, you know, get tips or whatever, or get hired by the restaurants to just come in, and do a show during dinner time? Oh, so what ended up happening is you target the right restaurants. I learned early on like at a young age, like I wanna be at restaurants for a variety of reasons, where people either have bigger budgets, or people that are gonna hire me for parties. And as that advanced in life, when I moved to New York city, I started realizing like, where are the corporate people at? Because it's better to try and negotiate with somebody who's not spending their own money, than their company's money, and I started learning those things. But at 14, I can give you a great example. I went up to a table, two women, that did not seem to want me there whatsoever. I did my stuff for them, and she asked me for my business card, which was weird, because I didn't think they liked me. And then she called me about three days later, and there was a National Tire and Battery, which is kinda like a pep boys type thing in Michigan. And they were having three grand openings, and they hired me. I'd never gotten a corporate gig in my life, no idea what charge, I don't even know if they know, like they're calling a 14 year old boy. At those events, at each single one of those, were Detroit Red Wing's players, that were there for the national openings along with me, and every one of those were future hall of famers. Like Steve (indistinct), Nick Lindstrom, Dino (indistinct), and these guys are huge, in Detroit, these are massive celebrities, this was like being with Michael Jordan. And so I'm at these parties, these events, I'm doing stuff with these guys, photos in the newspaper and suddenly just, you know, you gotta make your luck in a certain way, but once you get it, you have to embrace the momentum, and that's something I learned early on in life, and I've done that ever since. Where if you go to "America's Got Talent", a lot of people do that, and then that's kind of it. That was a stepping stone. Like every one of these things I try to use, and keep the momentum going, roll that snowball down a mountain. But it's interesting that with that level of success at such a young age, that it still didn't break the spell of, you know, pursuing it as a full-time thing. Not at all, I didn't think that it's possible. Like, do you know when you have like a switch in your brain, the only I could describe it, an on/off switch. And I've had a few moments in my life where people either intentionally or unintentionally, just gave you that confidence, or just made you aware that, "Oh my God, this is possible." And a lot of times you don't believe in yourself, 'cause you've just never seen anyone else do it. Well the only models are people that are out in Hollywood, or New York City, and they're big names. And there's no internet, and they're not doing podcasts telling you how they did it, so it's impossible to imagine that you could find that path for yourself, as just a kid living in Michigan. Right?
Yeah. And nowadays everything is at your fingertips. Like the world is in your hand, and it's just incredible what people can do. Yeah, all right. So you end up going from college to Wall Street, which is unbelievable. You get this job at Merrill Lynch, but you weren't like an analyst, you were in the IT department, or something like that? So my background, I went to school for engineering. I started with computer engineering, but I was so bad at programming that I was just like, "I can't do this." But I was very good at math. I was kind of like almost a math genius, when I was 12, I took calculus, math was always easy. I don't think I'm incredibly intelligent, it's almost like when you watch the movies, and you see like the guy who just knows how to solve all this stuff, from when I was a young kid, just math was like a language that I just understood, I can't explain it any other away. And so I was always very good at math, and electrical engineering was kinda like the same, it wasn't a passion, I didn't love it, but it was easy for me, 'cause I was good at math, so I just did that.
That's amazing. Do you think there's an overlap, between the skills that you've developed as a mentalist in that math ability? Yes.
Like, it's the same part of the brain? It's similar, because I can engineer things in a certain way., right? Imagine if you take a problem, and you try to break it apart in little pieces, like a Rube Goldberg Machine. You know those things where the mouse trap, and then the dominoes, and then this and that. So I see that when I watch a mentalism, like when I come up with stuff for mentalism, most of what I do is kind of stuff I've come up with. If you watch the TV appearances, you won't see anyone else doing it, because most cases I've invented it. So I just think, "What do I want to happen?" What do I want you at the end of this to be like, "Oh my God, he did this." One sentence, that you could tell a five year old, and they would understand. And then I go backwards, and reverse engineer that Rube Goldberg Machine, and that's kind of like a math problem, if you think about it. How in the hell could I fool somebody who's intelligent? I'm going to a corporate event tonight, with people that have, you know, incredibly successful careers, doctorates, how am I gonna fool them with in essence magic tricks? Yeah.
But that's my goal. But more than fooling them, it's entertaining. If they're just fooled, then it's kind of a challenge between our egos. I want you to have fun, I want you to leave laughing, enjoying yourself, and wanting to have a drink with me, not being scared of me. So yeah, I think the math stuff really helps me, because my memory's very good. Like in a show like that, I will know everything about the whole audience. Right, and you have this facility, and practice of trying to remember everyone's name, and kind of scoping everybody, and getting as familiar as you possibly can, with every individual that's gonna be attending the event, so that you have a shorthand, when it comes to spinning your yarns, and doing your thing. Yeah, do you know, in the "Bourne" movies, you know what I mean? "Jason Bourne" movies, I love- The hyper vigilance. I like the part with the situational awareness, when the first time, when he goes, he's in the bar, or he's in the restaurant, he's like, "How come I know that, that guy's doing this, that person's doing that, and right now I could run for-" Like he has this whole line, I love that monologue. I met Matt Damon once on "The Today Show", and I was like, "Dude, I love that scene." And that's kind of what you train yourself to be aware of. Not 24/7, it's not-
That's what I was gonna ask. I mean, can you turn it off? All the time?
Does it drive your wife crazy?
Other things of mine drive my wife crazy, we can have a long list if we interviewed her. But not that part. She would actually be like, "Why aren't you doing more stuff? Why did you forget the kids had to go to swimming at this time?" But no, that's something that it's like a focused, disciplined approach. It's kinda like when you step up to the start line for a race and you're like, focused, you visualize where you're gonna be, the same thing approaches when I'm at a show. You'll see me before the show, walking outside, if I'm doing a show at public, like a theater, and people watch me, and that's very unusual, because most times the performers are backstage, you don't see like the rock star, or the comedian before. And I'm walking around, I'm saying, hello, I'm just walking, and I am watching everybody, everything about them, mannerisms, things, and that's the time that my team knows, you never talk to me in the 15 minutes before a show, because imagine your brain just completely at 100% churning, like everything is going into my brain right then, that I'm absorbing and taking in, that I'm gonna use in the show, and that's it, that's the most focused I ever am, in my life. And what are you looking for specifically? A million things, like I can't explain, what round peg fits in a square. Like when I know what tricks I'm gonna do, and what routines, I can just sense... That's the art, the biggest art is not knowing how to do the things, it's knowing who to pick, to do the right thing with, does that make sense? Yeah.
_ So that's why I say it's the director's cut, it's you're not picking. If you brought me in a casino and said, "Right now, sit with him, do this poker thing with him." It's not how it works with me. You don't have the constraints, I get to make the choices. But when you walked into the studio today, were you doing that?
I do it automatically, yeah. For sure.
Will you tell me what you noticed, and kind of filed away, that might be useful? I'll tell you at the end, once you've seen what I'm gonna do. All right, that's a deal. Prophets walk among us, as a writer and podcaster for nearly 10 years, I've become more convinced than ever, that our world is populated by scores of beautiful and brilliant people, who have amazing stories to share. Those that we don't know who can teach us something new, and leave us all the better for the experience of their sharing. And so I've dedicated my career to tracking down the most compelling prophets on the planet, going deep with each of them on my podcast, to elucidate the best of what they have to offer, and to sharing the insights gleaned, for the benefit of all. But the podcast is not at the only medium by which to share their stories, which is why I'm proud to announce the release of my new book, "Voicing Change Volume II". More than mere words on paper, "Voicing Change", is a physical manifestation of the magic, inspiration, and timeless wisdom that transpires each week on the "Rich Roll Podcast". The first edition of "Voicing Change", was a beautifully rendered book, worthy of display on any coffee table, and volume two follows in that tradition, by showcasing even more of my favorite conversations, in an elegant publication, replete with interview excerpts, essays, and stunning photography, making for an exquisite companion to the first volume, or a satisfying standalone work. And every copy comes with a chance of winning our golden ticket sweep stakes. Six golden tickets will be hidden within a handful of books, and will unlock a treasure chest of cool gifts, donated by several of our sponsors. See official rules for details. Picking up this book allows you to revisit the wisdom of your favorite everyday prophets, and physically interact with the life changing ideas contained with it. "Voicing Change Volume II", available now while supplies last for a limited time. Order your copy today, only at richroll.com So there's a couple like interesting inflection points. The first one is this, sort of dinner party event at Merrill Lynch, that kind of changes your life in a pretty material way. Yeah, so I worked at Merrill Lynch, and it's important to know that my job was like, I'm this 21 year old kid who just gets hired, as like, you know, I was an intern and then they hired me, and this was right after 9/11, and in Wall Street, they did this thing called contingency and recovery, where you had to move all the operations, in case New York got attacked again, the servers wouldn't be gone, you know what I'm saying? That's all the financial data of the world. And so I was the guy who when they were buying all these servers, for hundreds and millions of dollars, I get on the phone with somebody, a million times smarter than me, and he goes, "I need $8 million to buy all these servers." And I go, "You can have $3 million." I was hated, I was a punching bag at the company. So what I ended up doing to soften the blow, was I'd got to happy hours with these engineers, that had to talk to me a 22 year old, 21 year old, and make the decisions through me, I was red tape. I would do magic for them, and they would be like, "This guy's not so bad afterall." They would end up loving me, even though they should hate me, does that make sense? Right, and then they bite the bullet, and take the- Right, because it was like internal, I kind of managed the servers for the company at the time, I was a project manager. So what I'm saying is words circulated throughout my company, up the rungs, up until about a year after I'm working there, I got hired to do a show for the CFO of the company. He has no idea that I work at this company, he thinks I'm like a professional magician, for some like small dinner party for a select crowd. And at the time I did a lot more slight of hand magic, and I did a trick where I take five, $1 bills, and I snap my fingers, and they just turn to hundreds. And he starts laughing, he's like, "Oh my God, obviously, we gotta get you working here." He's like Australia, "I gotta get you working here mate." If anybody can turn ones into hundreds- Exactly.
He should be working in my bank.
Yeah. And everyone laughs and I go, "I do work here." And he thought I was busting his balls, and he is like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Literally, I work in your global technology services department in 95 Green." And the guy couldn't believe it. And he just looks at me square in the eyes, and I can see it vividly, you know, if you recount a story enough? But also I still see that moment, this is like 16 years ago, and he goes, "What the hell you doing working here?" And it was like, literally, like I said, you flip a switch, inflection point, where I just said to myself, "What am I doing working here?" 'Cause I'd always thought like, my parents raised me, you gotta get a job, and this is a paycheck- And you didn't have that guy when you were 16 telling you that, you didn't have that mentor voice. Not even the mentor voice, the voice in your head's the most powerful, the one telling you, like, "You can't do that." Maybe that somebody does that, but that's not you you don't really believe you could be that person. And so at that moment, I went home, and there's a lot of other factors, like a lot of things is luck and timing in life, which is I wasn't married, I didn't have any kids, I didn't have any bills that if I, God forbid something bad, I couldn't turn it around... Also, it was before the market crashed, if this was in 2009, I probably would've held onto that job for dear life. Yeah.
So I said, you know what? Let's do this. I got savings, what's the worst that's gonna happen? I'll have to go find another job in a year, and I said, "I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna give myself a year." And the scariest part is... And I'd been working, keeping in mind I had restaurants, I was hustling, I never didn't hustle. So the side hustle was going on the whole time you were at Merrill Lynch, anyway? The side hustle got to be to the point, where I was working so much, that my girlfriend at the time was like, I'm always gone on weekends, I'm doing bar and bat mitzvahs, which are huge in the New York City tri-state area. People spend as much on bar mitzvahs, as they do on weddings in other places. And so I was doing all these shows, I was working. I'm either working at my day job, or I'm at night. And I just finally said, "I can't do this." You can't like jump in a pool just by dipping your toe in, you gotta go for it, and you've gotta be hungry. So I needed that push, to have that day one where I was on the couch, and I wake up and I don't have to like go to work, and no one's calling you or telling you, you have to do anything, you become your own boss. And that's when it dawns on you. And that first year, I didn't do nearly as well as I did when I was working on Wall Street, where you need to make things happen. And it's kinda like, you've gotta do it, or else no one's gonna do it for you. Right, and so that's 2002- 2005
2005, gotcha. So "American "America's Got Talent", doesn't happen until 2015- 10 years.
That's a full decade of doing and pushups and-
Takes a decade to be an overnight success. 10,000 hours, right?
Yup. Everything good takes 10 years. I honestly, I believe it.
In my experience, I've seen it so many times, I've experienced it myself, to develop a level of mastery and command, I really think it takes a decade. And yeah, there's always gonna be outliers, and people who seem to find a way to shortcut that, but for the most part. But you had tried to get on the show earlier on, it didn't work out?
So I wasn't a fan of the show, and then Howard Stern went on, and I have a bunch of friends that are Howard Stern fans. I loved Howard Stern. And when he went on, it kind of like changed it, where I started watching it religiously, and I really enjoyed the show. And I, again, didn't really believe that I could be on the show, it's one of those, I don't know, I'm confident in certain regards, but other regards, it just doesn't always seem like, I don't how you do that. And I luckily had another TV appearance, and so a TV producer from "America's Got Talent", they'll sometimes reach out, and they'll say, "Come on into audition." As opposed to, what's known as kind of like a cattle call, where you go in with thousands of people, usually into like a giant warehouse, and you just take a number and you wait, that's what you see on the show, when they show you. So the first time I went in, I did a producer's call, which is more of a red velvet rope, come on in, and you go right in, and it went terribly, like terribly. Not so much from my own perspective, but the way it was set up, I went into a room... Imagine right now, if we went into this room, and there was just a camera person, and they go, "Okay, do your thing." And I'm like, "I can't just do my thing, I'm a mind reader." You need-
I need someone whose mind to read.
Right. So it flopped badly, because it wasn't set up well. And quite honestly, it was a blessing in disguise. And you know, there's always a silver lining, people say that, but in this case there was, 'cause it's like you said, those pushups in those years, I didn't go back on for about three more years, and those three years I did a huge volume of shows, and I got better and better. The more you do it, the more you iterate, the more you see it works, and kind of my persona developed. And when I went back in, I went in not caring. I was gonna go in two years later, but it was so cold out, it was 15 degrees fahrenheit with like a wind chill, and I went out there to stand in line, and I stood in line for three hours, I was dying, and then I had a show. I thought I was gonna be done, and I had to go do a show, and I'm like, "Screw this." I told my wife, I'm like, "I'm done." And I skipped it. And then the next year I came back, thank God it wasn't that cold, and I waited for like seven hours, I did not care. I'm not lying to you, I did not care at all what happened, I went in there, like I owned the place, and I killed it. Because kinda like actors that do auditions, you hear about actresses that go in, they don't think they're getting the part, so they just are so loose, I was so loose, I walked in, and then I went in, and then I just cracked jokes, I go, "Guys, we don't even need to do this, you already found the guy who's gonna win a million bucks." And I was just like, completely just let it go, 'cause I really didn't think I was getting on, and they loved it, and that was it, and that was the season that I ended up getting third place. It is powerful when you don't care. It's the greatest power you have to say no. That ability to detach from expectations and results, just allows you to flourish in those high pressure moments. 1000%.
Yeah. I can't believe you got third? That's a good or bad?
No, I mean, I watched your performances, and I was like, "Who's better than this?" Oh, thanks man.
I don't watch the show that much, so I don't know who won and got second that year, but I mean, you had those people eating out of the palm of your hand. I mean, they were going insane. And I would imagine it's very difficult to thread this needle week in, week out, so you have to do six performances, right? It's crazy.
And you can't peak too early, you can't blow your best stuff- You nailed it.
... On the first or second one, but it has to get better, and it has to be good enough, so you're gonna make it to the next round, so that's a difficult kind of equation to square. The highs and the lows of that show, if you ask me the part of my life... You know, where you live something that's surreal, because you know you lived it, but it happened so quick, that it almost feels like it was a dream or a movie. The last stages of that show, when you're so in it. And obviously other people, some people watch the show, some people don't, but when it's your life, and you're like there, on a Tuesday, you'll perform live, and it was the number one show on TV, I don't know if it still is, but it's the number one TV show in the country, and to some defacto in the world, because it's watched on YouTube internationally. As soon as you get on that show, people call you from all over the world, I was called from six continents. And so you perform on Tuesday night live, which is its own beast, you can't screw anything up. There's nothing, it's not edited at all, if you screw anything up, you're done. The next day on Wednesday night, they tell you if you got through, so that Wednesday night, you're on like a high that you just can't believe. Your skin is like, tingling. And then you have maybe five minutes, before you walk backstage, and the producer goes, "Okay, great. Tomorrow morning, we gotta talk about what you're doing in six days, and we're doing a rehearsal in four days." And so it's like-
And how much do they need to know ahead of time? Everything.
I mean, you had mentioned earlier, that you had to walk them through it-
They know everything. So you have to actually explain to them, how you're doing it, so they're in on it?
100%. The one joy of that show, I call it, the emperor has no clothes, is when I do almost every other TV show, I've got two things working with me. I'm trying to fool the audience, and entertain the audience at home, while also not letting the producer and TV staff, know how in the world I'm doing this. Most TV shows you'll go to, they'll be like, "I have no idea how he just did that." Like I did "Ellen" a couple months ago, and I did a thing in the audience, if somebody wants to watch it, I don't wanna spoil, but I did almost like a mass suggestion of an entire audience, and at the end of the show, I wish you had a clip of "Ellen", five seconds after the camera's ended, where I go, "Ellen, this is your audience." She's done that show for 19 years, she understands that there's 250 people in the audience, and that I don't have a way to set anything up with them. Do you understand? She knows, I go, "This is your audience, you know." And she grabbed me, and she goes, "I know that." She understands that if you're watching at home, you're saying, "This is fake, this has to be set up, he must have told those people what to do, or like done something." She knows that those people get loaded in, in a room, she comes out, there's a warmup act, there is no way to know who's gonna be in that audience, do you understand what I'm saying? Sure, I mean, I saw the clip. Yeah, her reaction.
And I think I have a sense of how you led them to that place. I hope you try.
And everybody can watch it, or maybe we can cut it into this video, so people can see part of it. Oh my God, Oz, you're amazing. Thank you.
You're incredible. But there are Easter eggs? Oh, I want Easter eggs.
You watch these a bunch of times, you can see where, a little bit about how you're getting them to arrive in the place you want 'em to be. Exactly, and so that's the best part. Yeah, man, I don't know the "AGT" stuff. And I didn't plan ahead, so a lot of people that I've talked to, they'll plan ahead. I've consulted, I've like helped other people that are doing the show, 'cause once you have an insight track, you can be very helpful to them. And I've found, time and again, anyone who plans it, who's like, "I'm gonna do this in my first round, this is my second round." They don't make it through the first round. Like it's like a football player. If you are thinking about what you're gonna do after you catch the ball, how you're gonna run and get a touch down you end up dropping the ball. So I literally, swear on my life, I did not know what I was gonna do the next round, all I focused on, 100%, putting the best act together I could for this round. And I also did in the last three, all original material, which a lot of people don't, they do the stuff they know kills, that they've done hundreds of times. I said, "If I'm gonna be on this stage, I gotta do stuff that's like next level each time, and kind of raise the bar." So your coming up with new stuff, it wasn't like I have six of my best things. No.
I'll move them around in this way- No way.
... And that's how this is gonna play out? No, like two of them at the beginning, were my core act, the audition, 'cause you audition with something you've already done, it would be silly to do something you haven't. In fact, the producers, you show them your best thing, and they're like, "Do that on the first show." But the last round, for example, I did this thing with chairs, and it was kind of wild, where they all sat in chairs. I made that up five days before, and it was a whirlwind of insanity. I hate and love deadlines, because that's where I get creativity. Three days ago I had a show for a client, that's had me three times, and they need me to do something different. And I complained to my wife endlessly, I'm like, "This sucks." But I love it. Secretly inside, I love the fact that I'm gonna have to come up with practically a whole new show. The constraints are what pushes the outer boundaries of creative expression. I love it.
Yeah. But how do you come up with this stuff? I mean, do you get on the mentalist hotline, and call your mentalist bros? First of all, there are probably not that many of them, right? You guys talk to each other, or share trade secrets, or is it all proprietary and locked down? There's a network of people, it's primarily guys, I don't know why. There's a ton of Israeli guys too, it's so weird, I don't know, what's in the water. Really? Yeah, there's a guy called (indistinct)? (indistinct), who is a good friend of mine, there's so many Israelis for some reason, I don't know why. Also I know, like David Blaine is Jewish, David Copperfield is Jewish, I don't know what's in the water, but somehow, this religion has been drawn into this profession. I don't know how to explain. There's plenty that aren't too, but I'm just saying it's a weird, I don't know... (indistinct), is like one of the original mentalists, the guy who used to bend spoons, and got debunked on Johnny Carson? But there's a network of people I bounce ideas off of, and there's sounding boards. And there's some elements that I make up, a lot of the stuff myself. Some of it is kind of, you have a set of tools. Think of it as, I'm trying to think of the close thing, it's almost like an artist. You know, you have watercolors, I have this paint, I have this medium, and now how do I put those together? Some people use the tools to create the finished product, I start with the finished product in my head. Like when I did that "Ellen" appearance, I knew exactly what I wanted the end to be. That moment where an entire audience, all simultaneously does something unbelievable together, that's what I wanted to finish on. I backwards engineered the rest of it, to create layers, and to hopefully have something that's like a fully formed piece, where every piece connects, almost like a movie with callbacks, like a great comedy routine, has call backs to the beginning as well. Right, and every word that's coming outta your mouth, is completely well thought out, even though when I'm watching you, it looks like you're just spontaneously responding to what's going on.
It's both. So it's exactly that. It's scripted in a way that I know where I wanna end up, but at the same time, I'm juggling while on a motorcycle, I don't know what's gonna happen. It's the all ultimate rush, when you do those types of shows. Because if you watch on some of these shows, people throw freebees in the audience, I do everything in my power to make sure you know... like I've done shows at T-Mobile arena in Vegas, where we literally shoot t-shirts in the crowd, you do not know who will catch that. When they stand up and I'm gonna read their mind, because the first thought you think if you watch my show is this is set up, he went and talked to that person, and paid them or told them... That's what I would think if I'm watching. So if I say, "Ellen, you go pick anyone in your audience right now, stand them up, and I'm gonna tell them the name of their first kiss." "Wow." Right? Like that's a legit, like I didn't set that up, how could I? So I try to reduce every possible way you think I could do it, as soon as you've got one, I say, "You know what? I know what you're thinking right now, you did it by this way, so let's make sure I can't do it, and let's try it this way instead." There's an interesting relationship between this obsession that you have with this, and kind of the rush of doing this high wire act, because I'm sure there are certain people, like when someone's picked from a huge audience, that you know full well, "Oh, this person's gonna be putty for me." And other people, where you're like, "This guy's gonna be a fucking problem." Right.
Right? Yeah.
And that not knowing, has to be frightening, but it's almost like gambling, right? It's a weird, kind of exciting dynamic to live in. And the stakes are high for you, because it's your reputation, and this is what you do for a living, and people have an expectation, that you're gonna be able to pull this off. It's almost also like a therapist too, because when you say that, "When this person's gonna be difficult for me." Why are they difficult for me? So you think about dynamics. What dynamic am I creating between that person? Do they want attention? A lot of people, if they heckle, and they wanna figure you out, what is it that's the core need, that you're actually doing? Do they wanna be included? Do they wanna be a part of it? Do they wanna be shown to be dominant to me? If you're looking at kind of an alpha, if you walk in a room, how do you diffuse that tension? It's so nuanced, it's kind of dissecting what a person's core need is. And then a lot of it is changing people's memory. Like most of my job, I describe as making memorable moments, and people's memory is malleable. So what people think they saw, is very different than what they remember, and what they tell others. And I've been working on that for 20 years, is knowing how you will describe, what I do to somebody else. And that's something you think is, "Well, how could you affect that?" That's all I do. Every word, linguistics, timing, pausing, doing certain things, knowing exactly where your eyes will go, and what you'll do in a certain moment, when your moment, in your mind, if I ask you to think of something, that moment when I go, "Okay, have you got it?" And?" When I say, "And." Determines when you will change your mind, or if you'll stick with it or not. People don't believe, half the things I do if you knew how I do it, you'd be like, "I can't believe I fell for that." And the other half, you go, "That's not possible." It hugs the line of being absurdly easy, and absurdly difficult.
Right. So when you're asking somebody to think of a certain person, or what have you, you have already laid the groundwork, kind of leading them to a place where they're much more likely to pick the person that you want them to pick, because of all these verbal cues that you've kind of seated in that? I think, was it with Al Roker, where you kind of worked in a Taylor Swift song title, into whatever you were saying to him? Little things like that, that you're kind of consciously unaware of, but work on your unconscious mind, and lead you to make a decision, that you thought was random- Right.
Which is disturbing on some level. We could have a broader conversation about free will, the fact that people are so easily manipulated, and you're so capable at doing it is a little upsetting. Right.
Right. I use my powers only for good, can we put that out there gang? But you could be a character on that TV show, "The Boys", and weaponize- I haven't seen-
It's basically like bad superheroes doing bad things. Oh, got it.
They are full of ego, and greed and what have you, but you could weaponize this- You could. Well, I mean, it is weaponized-
I'm sure people do. Yeah, they do.
Right? I mean, I'm not gonna tell you what is and isn't possible, but I watch a lot of psychics, and people that do various types of readings, and talk to the dead, and I'm watching them, and I can't tell you for a fact, they're not doing what they say. I'm not gonna pop anyone's bubble about what's supernatural, but I watch people that are telling you things about loved ones that are gone, and things like that, that while I watch 'em, I go, "I could do everything they're doing, better than them right now." And I'm doing it through means that have nothing to do with supernatural. I don't have a skill that you couldn't possess, if you were willing to train for 20 years. So when you're doing this, you're paying attention to nonverbal communication, like physical ticks, you're trying to plant ideas in people's heads, making subtle suggestions, Talk to me a little bit, to the extent that you're comfortable divulging, the kind of human psychology piece here. What are you looking at specifically, like eye movements, and the way people move their hands, and whether they get flushed in their face, or look away or look at you. I know, just habitually, when I'm trying to think of what I wanna say next in a conversation like this, I kind of go, like my head tips up, and then I see, like, I watch, and I go, "Why are you doing that?" It's like, I'm not even consciously of the many, many things that I persistently do that are just habitual, that I'm sure are clues to you. You're looking at somebody you're like, "Okay, where is that person, and how can I move them in this direction?" What are the key things that you're looking for? So it sounds like it's so simple, that you can just have people do things, most of it is just reducing tension, and building rapport. Think of it this way. When somebody gets relaxed around you, and they're having fun and they're enjoy themselves, they let down their guard, and that's when you get a lot more out of them, just in a relaxed way. I think of that movie, "Talladega Nights", you remember "Ricky Bob's" like, "I don't know what to do with my hands right now." Like when people are uncomfortable, they don't know. So a lot of it is kind of, I get people that drop their guard relaxed, and then their, I don't wanna say they acquiesce, because you think I'm planting thoughts in their head throughout, a lot of it is reading kind of what people are doing. Like if you're getting a choice, I'm gonna guide you towards a choice, where I'll see what you'll pick, or I kind of work with you, in a way that seems impossible to know what you would've done in a situation. But I have to be relaxed, in order to be malleable for you, right? 'Cause I'm hyper conscious of what I'm doing right now, because I'm like, "This guy's looking at me, and he's trying-" So, I'm like, "What am I doing?"
Rich is flexing. For the people listening to the podcast, just flexing the whole time. I'm like, what am I doing my hands? But you have to get me to a place where I am not thinking about that anymore? Yeah, but-
And that becomes natural, and then those movements and patterns become like a window. You'll think it's happening at the wrong time. So the thing is that you'll think, "Okay, so right now he is trying to read me." And then when you relax and stuff, that's when we kind of do stuff. And so it's the same as... You know what? I would say that most people do it with their kids and their spouse in a certain way, and I know it, it's not a manipulation. It's you know when people are the most suggestible, and you know the ways to kind of influence them. Like my wife knows that the best way to get me to do something is a test of pride. If I need to go clean something, or build something outside, and she says, "Aah, I don't wanna do that." But she goes, "There's no way you can get that done in under an hour." It's kind of like the trick I use on my five year old, she knows that I am a five year old at my core, and I'll be like, "Yeah, I can!"
We still all have lizard brains.
I have a lizard brain, I don't think I've advanced beyond the age of like 14, I'm 14 going on 40. But at the core, there's still ways that she knows how to work me over, my family knows how to work me over. Whether it's guilt, or whether it's a sense of, can you achieve a record? And in my profession, I'm trying find ways when I'm performing with somebody, to either loosen them up, which isn't always the case. Like I did a show in (indistinct) Florida a week ago, and I guessed this guy's bank pin code. And he was the best reactions, the best, 'cause the guy was so tough, and didn't wanna do it. And everybody knows him from this company, it was awesome. And he didn't even react at the end, like that I got it right. He wouldn't give it up- No, no, no, it was the best. He just looked, and he had a mic, and he goes, "Screw you." And he just sat down, it's the best, it's the best. You're not always gonna get that, "Oh my God!" And things like that are great. And it was funny, because as I do it, I actually show people how I'm doing it, I go, "Look, you said this number, and so in your mind you thought-" 'Cause I made 'em lie. , I do a lot of stuff where I explain to people, how do you detect if someone's lying? Now it's not 100%, but how can you see things when someone's lying? And then how do you deconstruct the lie? So if I tell someone, "Think of a color, but tell me a different color." Generally, if they tell me a different color, I can actually tell them, or a number. If they lie, I can tell you what you actually thought of, based on how you lied. And so I showed the audience how to do it in a very simplistic way, something they could kind of try later, just in this context, not something we could do right this second, 'cause it was a financed like company. But I'm saying that guy did not wanna be in it, literally, I had somebody pick that didn't want to, but that doesn't matter in a certain way. It's not like I'm hypnotizing him to cluck like a chicken, there was nothing embarrassing, he had a ton of fun with it, he was the star of the night. But I was still able to read him, because he falls into patterns. It's kinda like knowing people's behaviors. Have you ever done those personality tests, that explain to you what your emotional language is? Sure.
Right? Am I a love language? Am I a... I don't remember them all, because they don't fit into my shows much, but you know what you need, to kind of get your own, I don't know, what's the word I'm looking for? Whatever satisfies your, is it ego, is it pride.
But especially you're looking for... There's certain number of archetypes, right? So you have the skeptic, I imagine like the skeptics, and then the people who are really ready to have a good time, those are the most gratifying. Yup.
And then there's some people probably that make it challenging for you. Honestly, I told you, the apathy, somebody who kind of looks at you, kinda like, "Oh, this is a clown." Or they're not interested, then I feel that I need to pull them in. And sometimes I don't want to win that battle, I will entice you, I hope that when you see a show like this it's entertaining, but I can't overwhelm somebody who's just kind of not into it. How much of this derives from an LP, like neurolinguistic programming? There's some, and it helps, but you can't do that with everybody, you know what I mean? Some of that stuff, something that works for 60 or 70% of the population in certain instances is not reliable. It's kind of one tool in an arsenal. There was this article that I came across in Forbes. The title of which was, Five Ways Your Body Language Gives You Away. And it's this article about what you do. And amongst this list of five things, there were some pretty interesting stuff. Like one of 'em was when your eye movements go up into the left, then you're accessing part of the brain that stores memories. Yup.
When it does the opposite up into the right, then you're accessing imagination, and the person is sort of constructing an idea, or a memory, right? You can tell someone's changing their mind- So those are the things that you would be trying to paying attention to? You can also tell how far back someone's thinking in time. So if somebody thinks of a memory, almost like watching a processor on a computer. If it takes longer, it's a big program that takes to open. You can tell certain things about like, "Oh, they just thought of something from 10 years ago, or 20 years ago." Or, "Oh, they just thought of one person, and they just changed to another person." And I can tell if you thought of a guy, and then you changed to a girl. There's certain things that once you see them, it's almost, if you just watched a TV show, and it showed you, these are the 10 ways this plays out, and they're gonna work 90% of the time, and you memorized them, and did them over and over and over, you could actually learn certain things that you go, "Well, wait, you're reading their minds." You're not, your face is telling you something that your brain is doing, because your body's connected. Right. I would love to have you sit down with Dr. Andrew Huberman, the neuroscientist, 'cause there's something interesting about the neuroscience of the way the brain works, and how the neurons are firing, that overlaps in the (indistinct) diagram of human behavior, and what you're paying attention to, that I think could be really fascinating. That would be cool.
Like the neuroscience of mentalism.
I would love that. Get some analysis, and do something crazy for him, and then kind of have him deconstruct? Right. I mean, what has it taught you, beyond what we've already talked about, about the nature of human behavior, and the malleability of it, and how personality works, and the like, you must understand so deeply about the kind of operating manual, the operating system of the human animal? Do you like to play Ping Pong? Kinda.
So the reason I ask, is 'cause I love Ping Pong, I like the meditative quality, I'm not great at it, but I'll play Ping Pong. And you know, sometimes you get into a... There's other things, like running is similar, but it's not as quick, running is kinda like you can zone out, and you get into that zone. Not a runner's high, but where you forget, have you ever just forgotten 10 miles of a run, 20 miles of a run?
Sure. You're just, "I don't even remember I just ran." Right. You realize you just said, "Forgot 20 miles of a run." Like most people are gonna get angry. Yeah, I know who I'm talking to here, fellow kind of insane guy. So during Ping Pong, I will have things where I don't know how I just landed that shot, I literally don't know what my brain did, where there's instinct, and so I think you operate on a level of instinct and muscle memory, the muscle in this case, being your mind, that I will do things in performances, that I will try afterwards to be like, "How did I know that?" Do you understand what I'm saying? I can't tell you the answer, and I don't believe I'm reading minds. I really wanna be clear. I don't have a superpower, this is nothing supernatural. But if you've done this, it's just like a tennis player. I've seen (indistinct) do shots, that I don't think are humanly possible, or (indistinct), or any of these people. And so the same thing applies in my world, where I'll have moments where I guess something, and I go, "You right now just did this." And they go, "Huh?" And I go, "I don't know how I did that." I won't know how I did that. And it's just because I've seen it before, and I went on my gut, and I went with the instinct, and here's the thing, people amplify things that are correct, they forget things that are wrong. So in my profession, I get credit when I hit things that are right. Like people go, "Oh my God." Like if you'll hear a story from somebody that might have seen me 10 years ago, and (indistinct), "You're not gonna believe, he did this and this and this." Some of that might not be true, because their memory's a little different, because I kind of changed things up in their mind, and how they remember it. But other times, I might have nailed something, that in 20 other instances I got wrong, but people remember the big hits. They remember that moment when they won the lottery, not the five years they picked numbers, and they were wrong. Have you had any colossal fails? Oh my God, yeah.
Yeah. So what was the worst, most disastrous failure? So I mean, the thing that- It's gotta be nerve-wracking. It's so nerve-wracking. So when you're on live TV, that's the biggest, there's no safety net, because live TV... This is the best way to explain it, if I'm wrong, I can unwind out of it sometimes, if I have more time, because I just need more time to get back to the bottom of what it is that happened. I just need more time to try and figure it out. And so on live TV, it's usually a hard stop. If you do "The Today Show", you know, I've been there like 20 times, there's a clock, and when that clock hits zero, there's a commercial. So if you're gonna screw things up, like that's it, you're done. So I don't have the time, so I'm so focused, like laser, and that's why you see me talking fast, cause I know I have to get to a certain end goal. And when I do a stage show, it's much more free flowing, because I have fun, I have time. Right, and you have strategies, if it's going sideways, to like course correct, and- I've already thought them through. Like if you watch that Ellen thing, at every single juncture, there's one of those diagrams, you know, yes, no, maybe, that like creates a pattern, I don't know what those are called exactly. But I have a chart in my mind of everything that could go wrong at this moment, how I will address it, what will happen next, and very few of them end in a, "You're screwed." Like I've always got a path out in my mind of how I'm gonna do this. Yeah.
On colossal failures, have generally been things that are outside of my control. Like for example, I did a show one time, God, this was in like South Carolina, or somewhere, where it's generally like a corporate event. They bring me on stage, they're gonna have a smoke machine, didn't know there was gonna be a smoke machine. There's gonna be a CEO, popping out of a life sized genie lamp, didn't know this was gonna happen. And just all these things went wrong. When the smoke machine didn't stop, there's smoke on stage, I can't see the person whose mind I'm trying to read, trick goes south. Just things where you just leave the stage... The worst thing that can ever happen is when a TV producer, or the client, comes up to you and they go, "Oh man, I'm so sorry about that." Like, they feel bad, 'cause they know you're better than this, and you're just crushed, because you tanked, and there's, I don't know, things like that. There's been failures on my part, but, yeah, I don't know, there's a few that I can think of, that were gut punches, where I left the stage, and I'm like, "(indistinct)." And generally people feel worse for you, they feel okay about... Do you understand? They feel bad for you, they're not mad at you, they're just like, "We know you're better than this." Yeah.
But yeah. Bombing in front of thousands of people. But you gotta bomb, it's like a standup comedian, you have to know where the edge is, right? You have to touch that line, or else you're not growing.
And the only way to know that is, if you cross it once in a while. I love standup. Standup comedy is my favorite thing to watch. You know how kind of like movie stars wanna be rock stars, rock stars wanna be movie stars, my dream is like, I always wished I was a standup comic, it's the most pure thing in the world. You must be approached by CEOs and businessmen who are like, "I need a little bit of that magic, when I go to my next negotiation, or where I have to go to this board meeting. How do I get people on my page?" Right?
Yeah. It's sort of tangential to your act, and what you do as a mentalist, but this skill of understanding people, and how to guide them towards this result is very powerful. And I think is something that a lot people would pay a lot of money to better understand, to be like a consultant. It's something that I would consider, as kind of like an act two, I love performing. it fills a void, and it's a rush for me. I'm in the corporate space, most of my clients are Fortune 500 companies, and that's most of what I do. You're always wearing a suit, it's all very family friendly, it's all about making whoever hired you look like a superstar, that's all very consciously plotted out. Fully. When I went on, "America's Got Talent", I saw it as a commercial. They've just given me a TV commercial, that if I'm lucky enough, will be over 45 minutes of me, maybe even an hour, if you add it all up, on primetime TV with millions, hundreds of millions of eyeballs, what do I want somebody to watch and think? 'Cause they don't know who I am. Right.
And so that show is so great at crafting a narrative. And for me it was like the Wall Street guy, the guy who left Wall Street, had a career that should have been very fruitful, left it to take a chance on a dream, and then that's it. Like I do appeal to do that crowd, because honestly I know their industry, I know most industries really well, I study. If I go in and do something for a company that does, you know, finance, or if they do some sort of multinational product, pharmaceutical, anything, I will know their product inside and out, to the point where they go, "You could work for us." That's my goal, is to be somebody on their team, not just performing with them... But like not for them, but with them. So yeah, that was very on purpose to do the suit and be corporate, just because I don't wanna be edgy. I'm not swearing in my shows, or putting people down. You're the Jim Gaffigan of mentalists. I've worked with Jim, many times, amazing guy, love Jim. Well back to "America's Got Talent", so you do your six performances, they all go well, you end up third, of all those judges though, who was the most difficult, like who was the biggest challenge among the panel? I mean, Howard called you like a dark wizard. (laughs) So I ran into Howard Stern this summer in Long Island, and it was funny because I was out running. And he's got a place near me in Southampton, and I'm running around, and I see him, and he's easy to spy, he's very tall. And he's notorious, kind of germophobic, and it's COVID, and I didn't wanna go near him, but I had to say something, and it's actually, we're on a track. And I just run by, and I say, "Howard, I gotta say, thank you, man, you changed my life." And he didn't instant recognize me, but then I go, "I was on "America's Got Talent", I was Oz." And he knew, he's like, right away he goes, "Oh my God, the mentalist." He remembered very vividly about it, and he was with his wife. And he was a few laps over, I walked a lap with them, just talking about how much it changed my life. Because that show is so different than being on any other show. If you go on like "Jimmy Fallon", or something that traditionally is like, you think that's making it, people aren't emotionally invested. When some of you watch the sport team, you have your team that you root for. So something about "America's Got Talent", the people that like it, a lot of people watch it with their family, there's not a lot of stuff on TV that transcends ages. You can have your six year old, and you know it's gonna be appropriate, and you could have your 86 year old grandma there. And so people decide who their money horse is. And early on, a lot of people, just got very emotionally invested in me, I don't know. And so I'll meet people to this day, who are like, "Yo, I voted for you." And it it's just wild how much people will root for you. And so I think of the judges, I had great rapport with everybody. I feel like ha Heidi and I had a great dynamic. Mel B was a little bit... Mel B's hard to crack, because certain people, when you say they're kind of a free spirit, and you don't know what will happen in the moment. And when you're on live TV like that, and you ask somebody to think of something, they're like, "Oh my God, I don't know." And she's changing her mind like eight times. And it's not that I mind that, 'cause I know she's gonna do that, I'm anticipating, it's that I'm on a clock. And so with people like that, I have to create a different dynamic, because I need them to stop changing their mind where I want them to, and she's going on her own tangent. And so you have to start creating... It's like a game of chess, it's just like chess, but I'm playing seven moves in advance with somebody that doesn't know I'm playing them. And so I'm playing a game of chess with somebody where I have to control it, and I have to like do something that jolt her brain in a way that she stops, and we go back to what I need. I'm, I don't wanna say it, 'cause it sounds like a manipulator, but I'm controlling what you will do inside your brain through a lot of different physical, verbal, and non-verbal communications, and she's very hard to do that with. Yeah, the one kind of standout thing that you did with her, was have her write down some place that she went on vacation with a certain individual, and it's gotta be tricky, because these are celebrities, and you can Google this stuff, right? So you have to tick something, or get them to engage in an experiment that's not gonna be anything that's on the internet, or discoverable online. Right. Like, think about this, just visualizing something in your brain, and where your brain will go... You've done Ultramans, right? Mm-hmm.
Have you done Ironmans as well?
No. Never an Ironman, it's so funny, jumped right to the big one. Yeah.
So what was your PR at the Ironman? Or the Ultraman, I apologize. Do you remember it?
The total time? It's consolidated, right? It's like 83 days, yeah, the total time, I don't know, was like 23, 24 hour, I can't remember, I don't know. Do this-
I mean, I remember some of the individual day times, or, but- Imagine this, I don't know if you're PR'ing, but this is just visualize, I want you to see this, this is the way your brain works. Visualize you crossing that finish line, and you've done that how many times? Twice.
Twice. So imagine a third time, and now this is in your brain, just play this out in your mind, I just want you to see how your brain would work on this, it's not a trick. You cross the finish line- You say not a trick?
No, it's not- Is there something tied to this? I don't trust.
I want you to imagine you crossed the finish line, and right at that moment, somebody takes a photo of you. Now, did you go fast, did you not? I don't know how the clock works, but tell me a very specific time, what would you have seen the time be above your head, when you crossed that finish line? Would it have been faster than the last one you did, or slower?
Faster. Right? 'Cause everybody wants fast, are you sure though? Are you sure?
Yeah. What would the time be, exactly, how many hours? You want me to just tell you? Yeah, I wanna know how you thought about it. So the time would be for the double marathon. No, not the double-
The time is displayed. Oh, okay, great.
Because the third day is a 52 mile run, so it just displays the time for that segment of their- Perfect, so what would you have seen it say above you? 7:28.
Seven hours, and 28 minutes?
Yeah. On the dot?
00, yeah. Seven hours, 28 minutes, on the dot, you crossed as it went to that? Mm-hmm.
So why did you do that? I'm curious.
Why did I say that number? Why did you just say that right now? Yeah.
Well, I remember in 2009, if memory serves me, I ran it in 7:51 or something like that, so I was thinking, "Well, if I was gonna do it faster." And then I just randomly picked that number. You think so, right?
Right. So the interesting part is you'll say to yourself throughout, "Could I have done that?" That's impossible, I just want everyone to know, 'cause I want you to know the way your brain works. Did you feel influenced in any way? I didn't feel influenced, I probably was influenced in some way. And then at the end, when I say, 'cause it's the best part, 'cause everybody knows it, when we cross those finish lines, how often do we hit the nail on the head? 'Cause it would me me off, if I was trying to get under a time. Like if I wanted to be under 2:30, and I went 2:30:00, I know people that, that's happened to them. Or like I know a guy who went three hours on the dot, and it eats at his soul. And you said, "7:28." And then I said to you, "Are you sure on the dot?" And you said, "Yes, 7:28:00."
Yes. I just want you to remember that you said that. Okay, some kind of crazy bullshit is coming my way I have a feeling. I would really like to be on the mentalist group chat. The mentalist group chat?
Yeah, yeah. Is there such a thing there? There are WhatsApp groups, how do you break into that one? I don't know.
The problem is that it's acronym heavy, so that you'd be looking at it, you'd be like, "I don't understand what any of this stuff is saying, that they're saying." So it'd be very funny to note it. What is your take on like the Hollywood treatment of mentalism. There was the TV show with Simon (indistinct) the mentalist. And then did you see, "Nightmare Alley"? I haven't seen it yet.
You haven't seen it yet? So, don't say anything.
How have you not seen this movie? I know it's about a mentalist, you're killing me. Yeah, Bradley Cooper is playing a mentalist. I know, I listened to a podcast interview- In like the rooted, early tradition of this. I'll make the only excuse, I have three young kids, and I travel so much that when I'm home, I'm like... It's just recent that like, I don't wanna call it post COVID, and jinx ourselves, but is it on (indistinct)? I didn't see it today.
I don't know. Well, I think it's streaming, you can download it- I've gotta do that, I haven't seen any movies in a while. It's not that I don't love media, but I end up getting enticed when my wife picks a show, and then if we have some hours together, by the end of the night, I'm like, "We're crashing." But you probably saw the TV show, "The Mentalist", right? Of course, yeah. I did a promo spot one time for it, as like the real life mentalist. I said, "I'm not nearly as handsome, not as good of hair, or Australian." But so that show, it's exactly as it's amplified, it's like anything (indistinct) do a doctor show- Sure, solving a crime every week. Right, it's not like "Baywatch", where every time somebody falls, you do CPR, and they come back to life. But they had little points in it that were true, and they had little things, they kind of overdid it, where there's little points where you watch him like tap someone on the shoulder right when he says something, and that kind of inserts, I don't really do a lot of hypnosis in my show, there's people that are really great at hypnosis, and that's amazing to see. But there are overlaps between hypnosis, auto hypnosis, which I think a lot of people don't realize they're doing to themselves. You have a voice in your head telling you things all the time, that's incredibly powerful. It's like the way you model things, why do I never think that I could do this professionally? 'Cause I never knew that you could. But if you're as a kid being told that you can do certain things over and over, then you don't even have that voice in your head telling you, you can't, you're like, "Of course, I could do this." It's like you said, now people can go on YouTube, and find someone that does what they do. So there's a lot of that going on in the show, where I kind of reframe what you're gonna do, you'll see. There's something funny about what you just said, where you'll realize later, "How did he get me to think that?" Have you ever been like approached by NYPD, to come in and help them solve a crime? No, not yet, I don't know if they want me on the crime scene. I've had one bad moment, where I had like kind of bad press, but it wasn't my name was in it, where there was a government agency that used me, but like in an event, and it was when they were like, they brought a mentalist and they never said my name. Not for anything, like not to solve any crimes, but they were like kind of told, because the optics of it don't look good, but I knew it was me, 'cause I knew the thing that they were talking about, and they're like, "I'm glad they didn't say my name." So many career trajectories for you Oz, if this stage thing doesn't work out. Right? I would love a sales training, or anything like that, coaching in the future, because I think that a lot of the skills I have, are soft social skills, they're used in the guise of entertainment, but what does everybody want in life in general, you wanna be remembered, right? You wanna walk into a room, and command attention, and stand out, because all of those things, no matter what you're doing, everybody is selling in essence. It doesn't matter what you're selling, you could be a teacher, you're selling an idea to your students, right? Everybody's selling something to other people. Even if you work alone, at some point... That's why when you asked me if I'm salesman, like I think so, yes, I think everybody's a salesperson in some regard. And it's just knowing how to connect with others in a certain way is always useful. So what are some of those things? If someone's listening to this, maybe they are a teacher, or they've gotta make a presentation to their boss, what are some simple things that you could impart to somebody, who can start to think about how to present themselves in a way that's gonna allow them to succeed? Some of the biggest ones are the simplest, and they're ideas that you just think that can't be right. But listening, and truly listening, is something that we don't do very often. We're so distracted nowadays, that you don't actually take things in I find. When people ask me, how do you memorize everyone's names? There's no numonic, I'm not doing a trick, I am just listening to every person, and then I have a few techniques to get it back to them, so I know it's kind of been like imprinted on my brain. But most people, when you meet them, think about it, as you're shaking their hand, or saying hello, or doing anything, you're thinking of something else in your brain. You're thinking what you're gonna say to them, or your mind is elsewhere. If your mind was 100% locked in... Imagine if you met, I don't know, somebody you would admire, respect, somebody that you've always wanted to meet, in that moment, every part of your brain would be hyper focused. Like I met Steven Spielberg, I remember everything. I remember what he was wearing, I remember how he smelled, I think 'cause it was such a incredible moment in my life. Imagine if every time you met somebody, it felt like that. So it's not going to, but you can create an awareness. And when you really listen to people, I think it opens them up. And part of my job is I just sit there, I deliver jokes, I do other things, but when it comes to listening, I listen to everything they say, 'cause most people give things away, they don't even realize. How do you practice that though? Like what is a technique for- The names?
Cultivating that level of presence and focus. So something easy, at a dinner party. Let's say you go to some dinner party coming up, and you just wanna test yourself. How am I gonna remember all these people's names? Oh my God, I met six new people, and it happens in quick succession. So what I do is every single time I meet somebody, I try create some sort of comment. So a compliment is the best. I'd be like, "Oh my God, Casey, how do you spell that, is that K-A?" And when they spell it, you spell it back to them. That helps tremendously. You're not gonna spell everybody's name if you meet them, it's a little weird, but sometimes a great compliment. Like, "Oh my God, I love those glasses. Rich, did you get those glass? I gotta get those two Rich." You say the name twice, and it makes you remember the name if you can. Honestly, just try the next time you do it, to clear your mind, don't think of anything, and as you hear their name, say it to yourself three times, you'll be shocked. Somebody who's forgetful as can be, will do this, and they'll try it, and the first day they do it, they'll remember three people's names very well. Now it's different if you wanna remember their name long term, because right now what you've done, is you've done a impression in the sand, when the ocean comes by, it's gonna wash it away. You need it for the next 30 minutes. I mean, I started doing that out of necessity, just because I meet so many people, and- It's awkward, if you go in there- Yeah, like signing books or whatever, and they say their name, and then I have to sign their name, and then I can't remember what they just said. It happens to everyone, it happens to me too. It's terrible.
It's such a bad feeling. So I was like, I can't allow that to happen. So just intuitively, I was like starting to do that, just so I could be in that head space. Yeah.
But it's tricky, 'cause if you start saying the name of the person too much, then it's not good.
It's awkward, yes. Then you really sound salesy. I think that listening is one of the big elements that can help people, just a very quick, easy one. It's a muscle, it's like anything else that you become a better listener, I think you become better as a parent, as a spouse, as a sibling. Like most people don't really practice it, because what you're doing is trying to wait for your turn to speak. Right?
Right. It's almost like the Dale Carnegie, "How To Win Friends and Influence People". I'll go back and read that book again, and it's from, I don't know, almost 100 years ago now, I don't know the publication date. But I find gems in there that are so obvious, over and over, as to, it's what you said earlier, benefits-oriented. It's better, in a podcast situation it's difficult, 'cause I'm here to talk about myself, but I try to deflect when people ask me about what I do all the time, and learn more about what they do, and see what what's intriguing about them. What's the topic that's most vital to them? Is it their family, is it their career? And the more I learn about them, the more they open up to me, and the more comfortable they are around me. And that's kind of like when I do the cocktail hour, when you said, when I'm at a theater and I'm walking around, I'm saying hello, I don't want someone to be starstruck. I go, "Oh my God, you saw that TV show, what did you think?" I go, "Tell me this, what would you do if you were on there? What did you think-" I'll just find some way to ask a question that deflects from talking about me, and to get a little more of them, and try to open them up because that's the best way to kind of cut the ice, cut the tension, and that's in a setting where I'm trying to read their mind later, I don't want them to be on guard, I wanna find things that are interesting to them. Like if I ask you about a memory of your own, like doing a race, that you dedicated your life for two years to get to that point, you'll get focused on yourself, you start forgetting that I'm trying to watch you, and look at what you're doing. That's it. You asked me earlier, how do I make you relax? Well, I found a way. Let's talk about running. Yeah.
So when does the running thing start to work its way into your life? So I have twin older sisters, they're about 7 1/2 years older. And there was always a little bit of... 'Cause I was a baby brother, I don't wanna say sibling rivalry, but I always wanted to kind of have some sort of one upsmanship on my older sisters. And in 2004, I'm working like a day job, I think a lot of people fall into this trap where really you start going out to happy hours, you're eating like crap, you don't feel good. Like, I didn't really feel as good, I was letting myself go in away, and just unhealthy lifestyle choices. And I was missing a goal. Listen, this is a very comfortable thing to say, but I found life boring in a way, because it became very repetitive. And listen, these are very first world problems, there's people that don't have food, that don't know how to pay their next bill, I didn't have that issue, but I wanted a challenge, and I think a lot of people are drawn towards endurance sports, because there is no challenge, it's something is lacking. I want that illusion of danger, whatever you wanna call it, challenging myself, seeing what my medal is. So my sister signed up for a marathon, I thought this was insane, because in 2004, it wasn't mainstream, not everyone was doing marathons. So I on a whim signed up for a marathon. Somebody tells me, "You should do the Boston marathon." I go, "Okay, how do I do that?" And they're like, "Well, you have to qualify." I'm like, "Well, okay, how do I-" "So you have to run one really fast." So I reverse engineered. I found out what the Boston Marathon time is, and I go, "I'm gonna run that." Not knowing that you have to kind of be fast to do that. So then I started running on a treadmill, didn't read any books about how should you train. And I did a calculator. I probably did in my head. I'm like, this is how many miles per hour, so I just set the treadmill- I'm just gonna run that pace- All the time.
Every run. Yeah, and so that didn't work well, 'cause that was a little too fast. And later on, I learned what heart rate training was, and what have you. So I do the first marathon, I have some fitness in me, I end up running that pace for about 17 miles, I did the Philadelphia Marathon, and then I just fall apart, like traditional- It's the classic story. 17 miles, 17, 18.
Dude, (hand slaps). You hear that noise? That's me hitting the wall. I was like crying pretty much at mile 21. And at one point, I'm just walking, and I'm so broken. And I see these two guys walking in front of me, everyone else is running, 'cause I was going pretty fast, so at that point, you know, it's like "The Walking Dead" where I am. Little did I know that once you start doing ultras, that's the real "Walking dead". But I see these two guys walking, that are about 200, 300 yards ahead of me, really far. And so I get enough energy to be like, I'm gonna run to them, and I'll walk the rest of the run with them, I'll walk. So misery loves company. So I run for like 30 seconds, and I'm getting within the point where I can hear them, and I see these two guys, I don't know who they are to this day, but I hate them and I love them. They looked at each other, they nodded, and they started running, and I literally screamed on, "F you!" 'Cause I was so mad, why did you start running? And I got this adrenaline, that I kept running from that point on. And I actually ran the rest of the race, slow mind you. If somebody could fact check it, I don't know, I ran like 320 something, 325, 320 something, but I was hooked. My sister did one marathon, was like never a again, I did that one, and I was like, "I'm gonna read how to train, I love this." And then I started getting into it, and I started chopping time, and getting faster and faster and faster. I did Ironmans.
Yeah. Because, again, I feel like you have some nut case friend who's into this, I had a buddy at the time, Michael Arnstein- I know Michael.
The fruitarian. Yeah, I've had him on the show, early, early days.
Early days. So I saw Michael- Back in his office in New York. Yeah, I know that office well, I had my 30th birthday party there. And so I met him, we both read books, Dean (indistinct) was like huge inspiration, (indistinct), like Scott (indistinct). I started reading these books, and it was like a gateway drug where, we did a marathon, we each signed up for a 50 miler together. We were supposed to do the 50 mile together the first time, and at mile three he dropped me and ran ahead, I was like, "Judas!" I end up passing him later. Then you read about Western States, so I'm like, I gotta do Western States, and then Leadville, and then I end up doing Badwater, and just all of these... It's a whirlwind. Every single time before I did a lot of these races, I met somebody who did Badwater, I thought they were insane. But then suddenly you meet them, and you're like, "I guess it's not that insane, that person did it, I could probably do it." And so everything became possible at a certain point, because you realize it isn't impossible, other people have done it. And I guess that was the challenge. Yeah, that's wild. So you've done Badwater, Western States, Spartathlon- Spartathlon was amazing. If anybody hears this, and is into running, and wants something, man, Spartathlon is just epic. Did you do that with Arnstein? We did it twice, it's on YouTube, the videos are incredible, yeah. How's Michael doing?
I think he's doing well. Is he doing good?
Yeah. I know that he... I mean, I haven't talked to him in many years, but I know that he would run.. He lived like in the suburbs- Yeah, he'd run 15 miles to and from his office. Yeah, he'd run to and from his office, which was like in Midtown. It was 30 miles a day.
And he would just eat fruit, off the fruit cars fruitarian, right? Did he get you on the fruitarian diet? I was doing fruitarian for a while. I was never full fruitarian, but what I would do is I'd eat fruit, it's almost like a Jesse Itzler thing. I'd eat fruit till 5:00 PM, and my body got adjusted to that really well, and then I'd eat pretty health at night, and I still do a very similar thing when I cut weight for marathons, I'm not heavy by any stretch, but like for New York City, I cut about 12 pounds. Because when you're trying to run fast, like ultras are one thing, but when you're trying to run fast, you gotta be lean. Yeah.
Like my wife does not like it, she calls it manorexic, but I will be pounding bananas all morning. I'll be mangoes, I mean, I can eat yellow til I'm yellow in the face. That's not necessarily the best strategy with ultras though- No, then keep in mind, I eat other things at night to fill out, and like lean proteins, I love rice, literally rice is my favorite food. I could give up anything, but I just love rice, and spicy hot sauce, which is kind of gross, it sounds like, but just- And so I will lose weight, and I can lose like a pound a week, and it feels amazing when you're running fast. What's your favorite race, or the hardest race that you've done? I think Spartathlon, because it's so epic- (indistinct).
Yeah, it's so epic. I've never been at a race where every... It feels like the Olympics for the modern man. Ironman, Hawaii is cool, but it has less of a soul, it feels like a corporate thing, I'm not trying to knock it. It's amazing, the history of it, and I'm around just, everybody's a badass. Like when you go to Hawaii, I just see somebody and I'm like, "Oh, I meet this woman who looks like she's 32, she's 62, and she's gonna to completely crush me at the race too." You know what I mean? Like everybody there, is the top of the top at everything too. They're all people that are so accomplished in life, you meet them, and like you run a business, and you're a mother of four, and you're like the best... I was blown away by the people I met. But Spartathlon, I met people that are... Like, when I did it the first time at mile 76, I DNF'd, I was not mentally prepared for running 153 miles in a row, I just didn't know what that was. I thought I did, but I didn't. And I got passed by these two guys, that are in their 50s that are German, and I'll never forget this image. I'm on the floor, I'm done. Like turn me over, I'm cooked. I'm waiting to write my DNF speech. Keep in mind I've been throwing up for eight hours, that's a different story you can find on YouTube, it's hilarious, but still, excuses, I should have finished. These guys are running, in the middle of the night, in Greece, drinking beers, these two German guys, drinking beers, I'm not joking, they have beers, they look like they're out for a jog at mile two. Their mental toughness is they will die before they don't finish this race. And I came home, and I was so embarrassed, do you understand you? I watched the people at the finish line, I was crying, I was so emotional, and you could see in this video. 'Cause I'm seeing people that are way less fit than I am in every objective measure. I'm like a 2/25 marathoner at the time, I'm seeing a woman in her 60s, who can't run a 4 1/2 marathon to save her life, who finished this race when I gave up. And it's so inspiring, its so humbling, that when I came back the next year, it was like, my mindset was, there is no way I'm not finishing. Right.
And when we finished, I like broke down, I'm on my knees. And it's also epic because the Greek community- Explain the idea behind the race, for people that don't know. So if anyone saw the movie "300", that Gerald Butler flick, they have a scene in it, where they say, the way they frame it is that, the Persians were gonna invade Greece, and that in Athens, they sent (indistinct) from, how am I blanking? The Acropolis. They sent this guy running, and they retraced the steps 153 miles, they said it was in 36 hours, this guy's in flip flops. He ran there and delivered a message to king Leonidus, of the Spartans, and 300 Spartans at... Forgive me if I forget the place- Thermopylae?
Thermopylae, yeah. Right there, near Corinth that they saved, they held off the Persians thousands, tens of thousand of them, and that gave enough time for the Greeks to assemble an army, and it eventually saved civilization. Like they frame it as we would not have democracy here and now, if they hadn't done this, and if this one runner hadn't done this epic run. And so when you get there, everybody's honking their horns, everybody knows, everyone's behind it. When you get in town, they have like a parade with thousands of people from the city, they put a crown on your head of olive branches that are wrapped together, and you drink water that people give you in (indistinct). When you get within a mile, all these kids in bikes are there, everyone's honking, the whole city knows what you're doing. It's not like a Boston Marathon, it's not anything, this is in their soul. These people are so proud, I can't even tell you, you bow before this statue, and deliver a message, and you like hand it. And it's like a religious spiritual experience. There's only like, I don't know, 60 finishers or something like that? Every year is like 20%.
Right? And the year that we finished, up until that time, was the lowest finisher rate ever, 'cause it was 95 degrees, there's no ice. It's like Europe, you know where there's no ice? There's no ice. There's a funny story with Scott Jurich, have you ever had him on? No, but I know him.
I believe he's vegan. He couldn't get ice in his race report anywhere, the only place I think his girlfriend or wife at the time could get ice, I don't wanna spoil this story, or like, massacre it, I remember is at a butcher shop, and he had to put ice all over him that was filled with blood, and this guy's a vegan, with animal blood all over his body. I hadn't heard that story. Great story, so-
Didn't Dean run it in the sandals? Yeah, Dean ran it in sandals, I can't remember how he did, I love Dean so much, man, the greatest. Dean got me into ultra running, I have his book, he autographed it, and then we became friends since, but I have things like highlighted, and I made him initial the line where he ran from Napa, to San Francisco for 100 miles overnight, to then run the marathon, I'm like, "Dude, you are just-" I love Dean, man. So what is the overlap? Like how do these two worlds kind of- Sorry, I'm geeking out too much on ultras. No, and it's like, I love it, but like I'm interested in the overlap between what you do professionally, and how your running, kind of informs that. Like, how does it enhance your creativity? What is the practice around that? What are the kind of mindset tools that you develop, that are applicable in both of these disciplines? I've tried to figure out, and it's hard to articulate some of it, because everybody knows that if they find something that's a practice, like you just called it, whether it's yoga, whether it's, you know, meditation, whether it's running, is your brain gets into a zone, that I think we don't have enough of nowadays, which is you tune out, which is you're not thinking of all the parts of your life that you have to do, and you're not on your phone, or electronics, or things that suck you in, and that's when my biggest creative bursts happen. They happen when I have to do something like you just said, necessity is the mother of invention, constraints, you have to have those. And also I'm running, that's when I zone out. There's something about moving, and it's different for all different people. It's funny because I don't think of running as something I would enjoy, when I see someone running, it doesn't look fun to me. And when I was a runner in high school, and I hated it so much, I still am that person, but something about it now just evens me out. The way my mind goes into that zone, it's made me a better mentalist, because I go into that same thing where I can hyper focus in a way. And it's kind of like visualizing a race, before I'm ever at a race, I've already run that race 100 times in my head. I've already thought through where it's going, and that same kind of methodical, deciphering all the little angles of it, while also just letting yourself go, it's a little bit of both. Like, mentalism, what I do, it's an art and a science, and running I think is the same way. Yeah, I mean, the way I think about it is you're basically flexing this muscle of being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like you're acclimating yourself to a certain kind of discipline, that just inures you to this idea that you always have to be like iterating, and creating, and pushing forward because the running, you know, is always like holding you to a account, right? So if you carry that level of discipline into your professional life, like these two things can feed each other. But I do think there's something you kind of just briefly mentioned, about not getting ahead of yourself. In ultra running, you have to be present with that pain and suffering. If you have such a long distance to go, and you're having a hard time, and you start thinking about that, you're toast, right?
Oh you're toast. You have to be rooted in the moment. And I would imagine not being a mentalist, but thinking like for you to do what you do on stage, like you have to be so in it, in the moment of what you're doing, in order to be able to execute. Yeah, I never thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. If I lose track of it, it's kinda like, same thing we were saying, if you're thinking about what you're gonna do after you catch the ball, you don't catch the ball. And a lot of my mess up, have been that I'm thinking too far ahead, and I really have to focus on what's happening at that moment. And running is, I don't know, it's a great escape, it's so fun to not know what's gonna happen. And with the ultras, the big challenge of it is just knowing that you're going to suffer, and seeing how you're gonna do in the suffering. Yeah, and the longer it is, the more of a mental thing it is. Yeah, it's all mental.
And the mental is what you do?
Right. The mental is all I do. Right.
They go hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm planning to do a long run this summer, I've been wanting to do it for years, is I'm gonna run... Because I'm out in Long Island, some of the summer from (indistinct) to Manhattan, which is around the length of a Spartathlon, 140 to 150, depending-
Oh, its that far, wow. Well, it depends, as the Crow flies, it's a little less, but, do you know what I mean? You gotta kind of weave a little bit, it can't be on the highway. And so I would love to do that, and potentially for a few charities, give some money to some great causes, get some sponsorship deals and people on board, and I'm hoping to do that this summer. I wanted to do it last summer, then a race got in the way, and then before that was COVID, so it was a little tricky to get it underway, but I think this summer it'll happen. Yeah, but how many gigs are you doing right now? Ton, a ton.
You're a maniac. Maniac.
And are they huge gigs, small gigs, what does it look like now? It really varies, I mean, I would say, I did an event in somebody's living room recently, that was for like 15 people, and then I have a show coming up that's for 15,000 people at arena, so it runs the gamut. I would say the majority of the events that I do, tend to fall in the neighborhood of 150 to 1,000 people. I don't wanna say it's a sweet spot, but that's probably the most. And then sometimes am doing things that are public ticketed, like fundraisers for various organizations, that bring me in at galas, and fundraisers all across the country. And those I promote, like I put on my site. But like you said, the suit and tie, I'm big in the corporate circuit. Yeah.
So I don't have any touring theater shows, I had a residency in New York for a while, and then COVID hit, so that kind of got shut down, but it's just, companies, kinda like the speaker circuit, where somebody sees me at one, I don't advertise, and then they like what they saw, and they want me for this one, and this one, and this one, and word of mouth has been good to me. I could see you doing like a Vegas residency type of thing. Isn't that where all the magicians ultimately go? I don't know if the wife will come with me to Vegas. we've had the talk, and she's like, "Oh, you're going to Vegas-"
That would be a lifestyle shift. She's like a New Yorker at this point, she really loves the city. I think at one point I might do that, I also love running in Vegas, it's just one of those places, where I have such good runs. You never have to stop in Vegas, I can always weave, it kind of reminds me of Michigan. If you go outside the city, I mean, Alex (indistinct) lives in Vegas, and he loves it, because he has access to all of these climbs, and all this natural beauty, that's just outside of town. I did like a 40 mile training once, right before a gig. That's like, my go-to is, is if land at 10:00 AM, just drop my stuff at the hotel, and then my wife knows, she's can track me on there, like, "Get back for the gig." But I will just go as long as I can, if I can fit in- So you can literally run 40 miles before a gig? I mean, two or three days ago, it's all time constraint. So I got into Florida, I had to do a couple things, I had some client calls I had to do, and then I ran 30 miles, right at that point, it was four hours. I was hitting 7:31s, I posted it online, I just ran two hours out, two hours back. And then I got in, and then I'm an expert at it, I have my like, suit laid out, I'm nothing if not methodical, shower, 25 minutes later, suit and tie, ready, sound check. Yeah.
I actually think it makes my show better. You should FedEx your suit, or whatever ahead of time, and just wear your sweats on the plane, and get off the plane and run from the airport to the venue, I'm sure there's a shower at the venue, you could change, do your thing. I'm too nervous about my stuff not arriving, that's like my nightmare. Even though the thing about mentalism, magic, you have props, mentalism, there's no props, you are the show. That's why a lot of magicians eventually, like some magicians end up going towards mentalism, or they add it in their show, 'cause it packs small, it plays big, that's the way to describe it. And a lot of people, you don't need all the big props. I gotta bring cases and this, and then I need boxes and I need tricks, that's the one sweet spot of it, I can show up. And if you lose all my luggage, you could send me to Staples, I'll get, look what I bring here, I brought literally a notepad and a Sharpie. Like that's what I need, because a lot of times I have to construct my thoughts, and I write stuff down before, 'cause it doesn't happen in real time, I have to think of what you're gonna do, and kind of show you in advance, but I can do a show, and I've challenged my myself with nothing. Get like 50 bucks, go to Staple's, and I'm ready to perform for 1000 people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It might not be quite as smooth, I might not have quite the (indistinct), but I can easily do it. Where's the big television special? I'm knocking on wood here. So I had one show on NBC, that was a special, I got very lucky, we got nominated for an Emmy, and I won. And so I got that one, and if anybody's listening right now at NBC or ABC, we've pitched a bunch, you know me, I'm determined. So I think it's on the trajectory, even though honestly, you know what's funny? Is, being on TV, I'm not saying I wouldn't wanna do it, but every single day, being on TV becomes almost less relevant, because the people are on streaming, now I have a global reach. Yeah.
So you can kind of create your own thing. There's people on YouTube that are getting a thousand times the eyeballs of anybody on network television, it keeps just evolving and changing. And I have an idea that I've been trying to make for a while, that's just a very unique special, that's never been done before, that's a mentalism, that's just like, I've always loved David Blaine, and how he pushed the envelope, and he did it in endurance with his body, as well as amazing magic. And there's a gentleman named Darren Brown, who's based in the U.K, that's a household name throughout Europe, he's incredible. Who's been in the States, he's just not quite as famous here, who created these incredible specials, where you know what the mind is capable of in hypnosis. So I've got something, I don't wanna spoil it yet, 'cause it hasn't happened, but it will happen in the next couple years, and you'll hear about, it's gonna be incredible. Yeah, that's cool. It is amazing what David Blaine has done. Had you had him on here?
No, I haven't. You gotta get him on.
I'd love to meet him. Yeah.
What he does is remarkable, but it's very different, so much of it is putting himself in grave danger, and these easy endurance challenges that he's done. But the hot air balloon thing that he did most recently was with YouTube. Yeah, with YouTube.
So it wasn't even on television, and that's really the one that I watched. Right.
And I would imagine, I would love to see the numbers on that, to see how many people watched the YouTube, versus like his other specials. It was pretty remarkable how they documented that whole thing. Yeah, it was so cool. And they had all the angles during, and you could kind of live stream it, and the cool part was the engagement. You could be chatting with other people about it during, so you're getting all the snarky remarks. I don't know if you're ever on Reddit, but like some of the people in YouTube, the comments almost-
I try to stay away from Reddit.
No, but the comments, almost better than the content, 'cause they're so funny. There's people that are just, best jokes ever at the right moment. But yet they're all about, I think YouTube is very much looking for that live content. Something that you have to watch in the moment to be there, kind of like the same way sports. Where if you watch it the next day, you know, nobody wants to watch the super bowl, recorded on your DVR the next day, you wanna be part of the zeitgeist in the conversation. That's why I'm trying to create something that's just like that, that's in the moment, you have to watch it, that something big is on the line. Right. All right, man, are you gonna fuck with my head, or what's going on? Oh, we gotta do this. So wait, we gotta tee it up. But before we do this, I wanna ask you one thing here. I'm just gonna write this down, which is, I want them to know our history, you and I, 'cause it's really important, because if I'm listening to this, I'm the guy who's like, "Well wait, what happened before?" So we got connected through Adam (indistinct), is that right?
Correct, yeah. Who we have connections, 'cause I've known David Goggins for a while, and Adam knows David, and then Adam attended a Zoom show. So during the pandemic, like my whole career ended, I thought in April of 2020, I'm like, "I'm a free man, I'm retired, I gotta find a new gig." And I started doing these shows over Zoom, and reinvent, how can I do this? How can I read people's minds, when they're not even in the room? Adam saw it, he told you, you guys were in New York City Marathon, and you sent me an email, and it was like, when I was trying to connect, and I saw the way you sign off, which I laughed, right?. Peace plus plants, right?
Aha. You articulate those two, kind of a brand messaging. I want you right now, and everybody should know, this is right now happening, you don't know what's about to happen. Do you guys have a Sharpie or something? Let me-
Yeah, we can get a Sharpie. I think I got a Sharpie. Here, I'm gonna write this down, and I want you to see it, peace. And if you're just listening to this, just narrate for them, I'm writing down peace plus plants, is that what just happened? Yes.
Okay. And I want you to see it visually. How did you come up with that? I mean, I'm assuming, because two things, obviously plant power, vegan and peace. Like what made you think of that as what you were going to use as, what do you wanna call it, tagline. It happened organically, it wasn't any kind conscious decision, I think I just said it at the end of a podcast one day, and I thought that was cool, and it just kind of became a thing organically. And words have power, right? You've had 600, almost 700 of these things, you've changed people's lives all around the world. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to jump down, and think of another word. Okay, not peace, not plants, and don't let me influence you. Whatever words you want, and it doesn't have to start with a P either, it could, but it doesn't have to. And I want you right now to randomly think of a word, the only thing I ask don't think of somebody's name, 'cause if you think of your wife's name, your kid's names, that's a very obvious approach. Think of a word, could be a noun, an adjective, a descriptor, a verb, whatever you want, think of a word right now, you got it?
Got it. Now you know what I do, and the problem is if I came into this fresh, if we did this fresh right now, and you didn't know me, I would say stick with that. But what I want you to do is jump from that to another word. Now hear me out, let's say you thought of the word green, you might think of grass, or you might think of Michigan State, Spartans, you might think of anything else that's connected to it, whatever word you just thought of, I wanna make this impossible, that you don't say, "Oh my God, he made me think of this word." So I want you to leapfrog, like a game of telephone, from that word, pick another word, that for some reason, connected that word to this word. Can you think of another word, just because that jumped into your head. That word made you think of a new word. Mm-hmm,
So now we have two levels of separation, right? This is like, we're getting all the way to Kevin Bacon. You got another word in mind right now? Yes.
One more time, jump from that word, to a new word. Hmm. Okay.
You got it? Okay. Can you tell everybody else, there is no way that I could have known what you would've picked, because honest to goodness, you didn't even know what you were gonna pick. Is that true?
True. Okay.
So tell us all, what is that word? I wanna know, I'm not guessing it. Enlightenment.
Enlightenment. And you jumped from two other ones, we couldn't know what those are? Yes.
Now can you tell everybody, we're doing this on audio or video, can you tell everybody what happened? I don't wanna be involved in it, I don't wanna touch it, nothing. So when we were scheduling this podcast, and we found a date, and we were just locking in all the details, you emailed me, or you texted me and said, "I'm sending you this FedEx, I just want you to keep an eye out for it. And when it arrives, I want you to not open it, but I want you to sign your name on it and date it." Exactly.
Write the date that you received it. Do you have it?
Yes. Can you grab it?
Its like right over there. Jason, bring that over. And I'm gonna hand that, I don't wanna touch it.
Yeah. And I wanna ask you a question about this specifically, okay? Peace plus plants, did you sign that yourself? Yes.
You did? Where has it been since that moment? That's the next thing I wanna know. It hasn't left this studio. Hasn't left this studio, and I wanna see if I have this, rip it open, please? I should have brought something here. Is there any conceivable way that somebody working with you, could have switched the contents, or inserted something, or might've taken something out? No, 'cause this is my name, and I dated it, and this has not been open. And as soon as it came in, I did this. Perfect, so now-
Inside of it, is another sealed envelope, and on it, it says, "Sealed on February 28th, 2022, at 11:19 AM." And then you signed your name. So now there's too fast to this, 'cause I wanted to make sure for my reputation, that nobody switched what's in there, because then I'm on the line. And then on the other side, I said, "Please don't open it, until-" Can you turn it around? "Please don't open it, until we are on the podcast." Right.
Now that one's still, if you look, there are sides to it, tear it open as well, please? Okay.
Now Rich, if you've learned anything about me from this point, it's I'm nothing, if not methodical, so now we got one more layer, done. Dude, okay.
Now I know, now I know you guys didn't mess with my stuff. So this is a Manila envelope, with my name and my logo on.
Bam, we got the logo baby- And there's so much tape on this, this is like-
We taped it like crazy, and that is why I brought a safety (indistinct), what did you take outta your pocket? I'm not gonna be able to open this without that. Slice it open, Rich.
How do you use this? I like how Rich doesn't open his own mail. No, don't go through there, there's a little hole at the top. Oh, like this, I see.
And do a nice little smooth... Along the top, you're gonna cut yourself. Be careful, here, do this, flip it over. Oh, I got it, I've never used one of these before. Now, there is a safety seal, can I show them this? Yeah.
I don't know, do you wanna do this with the camera, are you gonna do this for like a behind the scenes, or no? Yeah, let's make sure we see what's going. Can you guys see if it's sealed, the safety seal on here? And Rich, this thing, this knife. Hold on, grab this knife, I don't want you (indistinct) the next thing. Sorry. We got business cards in here. Unrelated.
Okay. It's cutting my pocket. Okay, so take this thing, and can you firm the seal is intact? So, can you see what I'm talking about? Do you see it? Grab it, this thing, the seal, take it out please, safety seal. This thing?
Yeah. It should be attached to the staples, grab it out, please? All the way. All the way. All right. Okay, so it didn't rip- Safety seal, intact and secure, it was stapled. It was attached to the staples, so grab it out yourself, I don't wanna touch that one. Rich Roll, yet again. It's another-
Stapled everywhere. All right, another light blue envelope, stapled all the way around 360 degrees, now with my name-
You could either cut it with that, you know what? Screw it, you might be able to do it with the tape, just rip that bad boy open, tear. Tear it like crazy, can you get in or now? Yeah, okay. And then pull this out? It's some note in here-
It's been sitting there waiting for you, February 28th. All right.
Stop! Stop! Before we do this, put it against your body, you haven't read it yet, have you? I've not read it, no. You're sitting across from me, how many podcasts have you done? We've published 666.
As of this moment, it might change. Yeah.
I want you to close your eyes. Close your eyes for me for just a second, you're holding this in your hands, it's not gonna change, it's been in there since February 28th. Close your eyes, and imagine sitting across from you, I like to call it the ultimate interview, because you're a person who explores, you wanna get in depth, you wanna hear those moments. And I say to you, if you could ask people this question all the time, if you could have dinner, or in your case, interview somebody famous we've all heard of, dead or alive, male or female. And the reason I have you close your eyes, is 'cause like it'd be like Googling this person, a picture is worth a thousand words. See that person's face in your mind right now. Can you see that person's face, like they're in the room with you? Mm-hmm.
As if he or she is sitting across from me? Say their name.
Abraham Lincoln. Read what's in your hand? Open it up please?
The whole letter? Please.
Hey Rich, I'm very excited to meet you, and be a guest on your podcast. What I love about a great conversation, is you never quite know where it will take you, athletic achievements, past and present, seeing yourself cross a finish line in 7:28, (laughs) or winning a race, maybe discussing our favorite books, I lean towards fiction, but could see you diving deep into a biography of Abraham Lincoln. Only- (laughs) Dude! Only time will tell, and hope it is very memorable for you, and your listeners. Peace and plants, and enlightenment, Oz. That is unbelievable. 7:28, Abraham Lincoln, and enlightenment, three for three. That is crazy. So for people who are watching or or listening, it didn't quite get fully explained. But before the podcast started, we did an exercise, where you asked me to go on my phone, and go into Google image search, and think of somebody dead or alive, who would be a great podcast guest. Yeah.
And I just thought that I randomly selected Abraham Lincoln, and I have it down on... You didn't look at my phone. I'm over here.
Yeah, you didn't look at my phone. It doesn't really matter if I did- And here is the picture that I pulled up on my phone, a couple hours ago, before the podcast even started. That's crazy, man. That is unbelievable. I thought I had you, I thought I was immune from your wiles. Rich is like, "I got this down, I got this." That's why I always- 'Cause my thing going in, was like, I'm gonna pick something so obscure and crazy, that there's no way that this guy would be able to predict, but you know, I fell right into your web somehow. Yeah, of course, you didn't go for somebody obvious. And now we got a new tagline, we're putting out shirts, peace, plus plants, plus enlightenment, you heard it here first. Now I'm gonna go back like a forensic expert, and re-watch this whole thing, and try to figure out where the cues were dropped, or how you led me in a certain direction, to have me say those things. That's what I want our listeners, just up those download, keep downloading this, until we get it all the way to the top of iTunes, I like that, let's keep going- Is it all there?
It all there all the time. It's taking a puzzle and putting all the pieces together, it's a little difficult for most people to do, 'cause that's my job. That's unbelievable, man. And I'm gonna watch "Nightmare Alley", now that you said it, but- You gotta watch "Nightmare Alley"- I hope I left you guys with a crazy moment, and we're gonna definitely do some stuff when we kill the podcast for all the team in here, who puts in some really hard work, incredible operation you've got. Yeah, thank you. Well, that was mind blowing. Thanks man.
Wow, unbelievable, man. Really a pleasure to talk to you. You too.
What you do is, not only super fun, it is a gift, and it is beautiful, I watch a lot of your videos, and just to see how excited everybody gets, and how much enjoyment, and joy that you bring to people's lives, and now you get to go and do it in person again, after we've kind of weathered, these last two difficult years, so it's gotta be really gratifying to be able to do live events, and be with people. Nothing compares. Like the Zoom stuff is fun, and I'm really not complaining, because it put food on the table during this whole thing, and it was actually wild, because at a certain point you didn't realize, you could actually do more events, because you can just go into a studio, I don't have to fly across the country like I today. Zoom stuff all day.
Back to back to back, I'm doing one in Singapore, then I'm doing one for, you know, Europe, and I'm doing one for San Jose, like every time zone. I'd be up at 5:00 AM, one at midnight, like I could do multiple every day, and I'm wearing, you know, the old joke goes, I'm wearing shorts and flip flops, running across the street wearing a suit and tie up top, 'cause I have a studio that I rented, and we decked it out, you know? And it was incredible, but it doesn't hold a candle. What I do is just the enjoyment of seeing people, feeling them, there's nothing like it, I mean with, I think almost every forum. Even this, interviewing somebody on Zoom is just not the same feeling. Yeah, you don't have to tell me. Yeah.
I know the thing, man. Well, I'll be looking out for that special. Thanks.
If there's anything I can do to help you, this was an absolute joy. I know you gotta run, and you're going to you this event tonight, but next time you come to L.A-
In the same resort, you were at the same resort. You're talking about mentalism- I know, I was speaking at this resort yesterday, and you come in, and you're like, "I have to go to this place." I was like, "I was there yesterday." And neither of us have ever been there before, how weird is that? And we've probably both been all over, if you like drop the pin at all the place I've been around L.A that they do events. So it's just, you know, confluence, a lot of stuff is like that. Where in my show I'll get lucky, and I'll take advantage of the luck. I have stuff where I literally get lucky, I'll just look at somebody and say, "Is it this?" And they go, "Yeah." And I'm like, "I swear to you, that wasn't mentalism. I just swear to you, it was a guess that landed." And I get lucky with guesses, people don't believe me when I say, I'm a very good guesser. That you are, for sure. Thanks Rich.
Cool man. Well, next time we go running, and- We are definitely going running, I'm holding you to that, 'cause this was not enough today, I wanna get out there, get some miles on the trails with you. Cool. So for people that wanna dig deeper into Oz, Oz Pearlman is your website, ozpearlman.com Oz The Mentalist, on all the social media sites. And it looks like Oz, you gotta blame my parents, weird (indistinct) like O-Z, like Oz the mentalist, but I don't know, we say it Oz. Right,
Yup. Oz it is, anything else you wanna cue people up on? No, if I end up doing this charity event, which I'm like 99% sure at this point, this charity run, I'll pop it up on my social, and it's gonna be for some great cause, a couple charities I support all the time. And if you're in Long Island, come find me out there running. I'm gonna do some mind reading, and running at the same time. I'll pick like a Thursday or Friday this summer, and just do 135 mile run, just go suffer a little bit. Yeah, keep me posted on that- I will, for sure.
Maybe I'll pop in for a segment. Yeah, I told your partner in crime, Adam, about it, and he like thought, he's like, "Yeah, we should do it." I know, I wish Adam could have come today. He's out in the desert.
I heard. So next time.
I'll be there in a week. Cool man. So that's it, talk to you again soon. Peace, plants and-
Enlightenment. There you go.
Love it Rich. Thanks man. (upbeat music)
First tell them that you're going to fool them. Then fool them.
That makes you one of the most honest people ever!
I know Oz personally, and he is a person with a very strong moral compass. Everything he does on and off stage is to an absolutely mind boggling standard. We need more magicians, mentalists, and people like him. He's a great person.
As magicians, we lie all the time. We false shuffle, false transfer, etc. I have yet to see a mentalist who is so good that they need a disclaimer, myself included. Believers will believe, doubters will doubt, no matter what you say.
To claim that mentalists need "disclaimers" and magicians do not is to elevate mentalism above regular magic and to insult the intelligence of the audience as being too gullible and stupid to discern truth from illusion.
I think we need to seperate our own person from our stage character. Maybe woth a disclaimer