We're officially off the rails so this is ending now.
Oh gosh. And now I'm a movie star. I'm always gonna be like singing on this thing, you know what I mean? (Caroline laughs) And it's so heavy that you can like really dance within. (gentle upbeat music) Hey everybody, welcome to another Coaches' Corner edition of the podcast. Today's esteemed panel includes not just one, not just two but three Olympians, swimmer sub nine hour Ironman, endurance legend and Coaches' Corner OG, Chris Hauth. Of course also NCAA swimmer of the year, Caroline Burckle, who made her Coaches' Corner debut in April of 2021, and running superstar, "Bravey" author, and feature filmmaker, Alexi Pappas, who fans will fondly recall from her wildly popular appearance in episode 579 back in 2021. So this episode is not your average kick in the pants new year, new you narrative, because today we're going to go beyond the tired goal-setting tropes to actually attempt to get at the heart of how to actually evolve and how to actually grow into the better more self-actualized you within. It's a bit esoteric at times, but I think it's really instructive and helpful. I think they're gonna enjoy it. So please hit that subscribe button, strap in take notes and enjoy. Are we holding hands? (all laugh) You shouldn't have introduced us. A mistake. I like how we do this big- You shouldn't have introduced us, but you did. Listen, I know, I knew you guys would be besties here you are. The Coaches' Corner is metastasizing. It used to just be Chris and I, we introduced Caroline, now we have Alexi, and who knows what's gonna happen next time. It's gonna be like 10 people here. But we're all here. I feel- (Rich laughs) I'm laughing because we did a Zoom call to kind of wrap our heads around what we wanted to share and talk about, and create kind of an outline out of that. And then I'm the only one who's got the outline in front of him right now. We're winging it. Yeah. (all laugh) So much for that. But anyway, great to see you guys. It's been since April, I think that we've done a Coaches' Corner. So it's high time we convene and it's that time of year, again, that time of year where everybody's wrapping their heads around their goals, the whole like new you new year thing. And I think part of the intention for today is to help people get their minds, bodies, spirits prepared for the new year and help people get on the right track to achieve those goals, at the same time to sidestep or kind of upend that well-trodden, but misguided path that we've all heard around how you achieve goals and the way in which you set goals and to instead have a little bit more of a nuanced discussion that's much more about intention, planning, execution. In the context of not just setting and achieving goals, but really self-actualizing based on things like values. How about that. So where do you think we should begin. But also with all the start and stop of the last two years, like even last year, new years, we came out of it here in California where it's like, all right, shut down again. So all your intentions maybe for gonna the gym, which you couldn't, well a certain workout routine, you were sort of limited in the next shutdown. So we've had a lot of stop and go and this whole back and forth and how do we deal with that as well? Like who coming out of this or are we not coming out of this? Well, if studying poetry taught me one thing, it was like creativity within bounds. And I feel like all of us had to like realize that there were so many constraints, but there were still a lot that we could do within that if we chose to. And what's interesting about this Coaches' Corner besides the fact that I'm here, is that- (all laugh) You're very interesting. No, this is like the first, it feels like a new year where maybe the constraints will loosen, but also maybe we're still in it. Like we don't, you know. Which means we all have to be a little bit more resilient and I think getting clarity on those values and what's important to us is much more important so that we're robust in the face of external things that don't go our way. If you're not convicted or you're not entirely clear on what it is you're trying to do and the gym shuts down and you're like, well, so much for that. You just abandon it. Then that's a pretty flimsy relationship with the thing that you're trying to manifest. I like that, because I think there's a lot, like we've been talking about the stop and start, and that is all a part of what our body's also experienced through this too. I think a lot of people are just dysregulated and not sure which direction to go and have a direction, but then like you said, they go that direction and something else happens and pivoting can be difficult. So I think that, the recalibration we talked about, I wonder if you can recall.
The recalibration. Well, it just sets the theme that I keep bringing up and that is really coming to a point where you understand or think about, or go through a process of who you want to be, and what is being, and what is that next version of you that you're looking to become for yourself. I mean, Alexi, you said choice, you said we choose and that we chose. Choice is a big word in there because it's who we choose we want to be versus who we are currently. And what that might be was that healthier is that fitter, is that growth from a different perspective, but who we wanna be sets that all up. Of course that's the never-ending deep hole of personal inquiry, but certainly the most important question in all of this, because I feel like this is the time of year where you hear a lot about, okay, you're gonna set a goal and here's how you achieve it. You put it on the calendar, you work backwards, you create accountability, you establish a plan, you break it down into chunks that are digestible every single day, and you have a community of people who keep you honest and you celebrate the small wins. Like this is not an information problem, information is readily available. So today I wanna go beyond that because it really is about that question of who are you becoming or who do you wanna be? And to answer that, I think is both simple but difficult and it requires a level of self honesty and reflection that maybe new to a lot of people. Like how do you even begin that process and why is that important to create the foundation for figuring out what you wanna do this year? How do you answer that question? Oh my God. Everybody's looking at me. What's interesting, but before we dive into that, what you said about like, we know how to go from point a to point B to point C leading to a tangible destination. That seems to be like how goal setting a new year's resolutions have worked in the past and that's the kind that everybody knows, but what I'm hearing from both of you this morning, this afternoon, and this night, nobody knows what time it is right now, it's the middle of the night, is that you're talking more about like values and the way you wanna feel and the kind of person you wanna be, it's almost like intangible. So you're not driving towards a specific goal that you could see on paper. And I think that's almost important to talk about first because as athletes we're really, really trained to have a tangible goal. And those aren't bad. Like we had standards we needed to hit, we have races or specific things, but I feel like we're a lot of us have evolved is knowing that that's not the only kind of goal to have. And before we dive into how do we do this? I think, the type, who are we is what you said, what does that mean? And I think it can mean more than just a tangible result. Yeah. Just to piggyback on that. I mean, you need tangible goals, but those goals need to be a reflection of that self inquiry so that they're aligned. And I think a lot of people sort of spontaneously or reactively set goals without a lot of reflection around why that might be important or not important to them. And then invest a ton of time only to find out they're chasing the wrong goal because they didn't engage in that initial process. And Chris, I'm sure you've trained a lot of people who aren't clear on why they've decided that this is the thing that they're chasing after. And a lot of people are chasing towards goals but ultimately running away from maybe the most important thing that they need to be looking at, because it's easier to distract yourself with a goal and convince yourself that that's important because to really unpack whatever it is that that truly needs to get addressed inside of yourself is too scary or too intimidating. And a big, hairy, audacious, scary goal looks great on paper, it looks great to tell other people about, it fills and checks all the boxes that make you feel really invigorated let's say at this time of year in January, where you're looking ahead, and this is who I wanna become, sort of playing with the words that I just said. But the challenge around that is if, like you said, if it's not aligned with your values and your principles, you're creating a shadow self of yours, that can't be actualized and integrated in who you actually are. If you're a different person as a parent, as a working professional and all your other self care interest things and then all of a sudden you create this alter ego of an athlete. Sure there's some aspects of that that can help you become better in your other versions, but that can't be completely differently aligned with your own personal values and what you stand for. And I find oftentimes that does come up because it looks great on paper or you see the website for a crazy ultra run in the mountains where you're just on the edge of a cliff. And you're like, that looks like an amazing adventure. I wanna do that, and then you realize, well, A, I don't have the hours to train for this. I have to give up all the values of being a family man and being there for my kid's soccer games on the weekends. But also, I work for a living and life keeps getting in the way and now I'm completely sidetracked. And so it becomes a self exploration, also an understanding what you can give, who you want to be, what I've talked about with regards to an athlete mission statements. So you realize who do I wanna be as I'm this athlete as I'm going on this journey? Am I going, what am I goin to sacrifice? What am I not goin to sacrifice? What kind of boundaries am I gonna create for myself so that I can actually fulfill this promise to myself, this goal to myself. And I don't really like goals because it sets up this black and white thing, we talked about this last time. And so in order to achieve that desired outcome. And once you start narrowing that down and understanding yourself better, like you just said, do you have a higher likelihood of success of not only achieving the desired outcome, but also learning a ton about yourself along the way? Yeah, you can almost layer a little bit of 12 step program over this. So you begin the way I'm understanding your thinking Chris is, you begin with getting clear on what your values are. So maybe you write them out. My values are, I wanna be, or it's important to me to be a present parents and a good partner and a provider or, and fit and healthy and somebody who- But why? So understanding why that's important to you. So going behind that to understand why that's important, of course. But once you're kind of clear on that, then you can do an inventory on your actions and your behavior today to see how much it aligns with those values and we'll all identify places where we're not measuring up. So in that conversation around becoming, it's like, okay, my goals should be oriented around, moving me towards greater alignment between the values that I aspire to inhabit and where I'm currently falling short. And to the extent that a race or something fitness or endurance oriented, kind of meets up with that, then that would be evidence that maybe that is a good goal to pursue. Or a stretch or something from a growth perspective. A little bit beyond your capabilities in the moment. I think the, and just going off of all of this, one of the questions I was asked, literally right after our Zoom call the other day from a good friend, was how do you set a goal for the future while remaining in the present moment? Like kind of what both of you are saying, how can you take what you're doing right now and understand the steps to get there? So that's like the general question I think that we can all ask ourselves is, okay, you wanna go do this epic race, or you wanna, I don't know, go to grad school or whatever it is that you wanna do, but then how can I do that right now? I think that's a point of, I don't know if contention is the right word, but it can be confusing for people. And that's why the resistance comes out. Do I have the skills right now? Exactly. Like, do I have the skills, like, can I do that? Do I think about this future point now or am I supposed to set a goal for where I'm at right now today? I think, to answer that part of it is there seems to be a fear with your friend that this goal is either like unachievable because of who they see themselves as right now, or that they might change enough so that that wasn't the appropriate goal when they get to that point of a combination. And I think, look Rich said at the beginning, this Coaches' Corner didn't happen since last April. And I think that's really appropriate because I think that there are periods of time when we set goals and then a period of time where we're just- Executing.
Executing, suspending our disbelief and being in the incubator of it and putting in the work. And I think for your friend, like the important thing is, there's probably a million other responses to this, but what I'm seeing is like give yourself a reasonable period of time to chase a goal but don't plan too far in advance. I think for those listeners, I don't wanna decide who I am in five years from now because I will probably limit myself from who I really could be. And so I think I've always tried to plan like a year in advance at the most because I know that I'm gonna outgrow my shoes and I can't even see the possibilities. So when we're talking here about goals, I think it's important that people have a balance of setting goals and also being open to what the universe is gonna bring them. And that means that this value conversation is even more important. Because when opportunities come our way, we know how that factors in with our values that we have set for ourselves as opposed to the goal. I think important there though is also to understand and what we talked about this, is that goals are not the outcome. They're not their north star, they're not the end point, they're objectives along the way to continue to go follow your inspiration, your curiosity, to continue to grow. And you set a goal along the way to validate that you're heading in the right direction, down your path, whatever your path is. And part of that has to be a curiosity that comes with that. So if you're getting a curiosity for grad school, that's pulled away from athletic for a moment, and you just always have this sort of this whisper within you, like I should go to grad school. I'm really curious to learn more. I really wanna specialize in this field and so forth. If that keeps coming up, that curiosity tied with your interest, you could even call it passion, that's gonna create a lot of energy into that direction. And yet in your day-to-day life, there's many things you can do to further yourself. Maybe not this tangible action that we see, let's say in training, because I worked out today, I'm a step closer to that goal. Maybe it's I got a good night's sleep. Maybe if I read about that race, maybe, I'm cleaning up my nutrition. Maybe it's spending time with my family so that when the weekend comes around, I have an extra hour to train. Little things like that. You continue to grow towards, again, that north star, that purpose you're heading towards with goals along the way. Do you think people don't relish enough in those little steps? Like what what's going on with this? What's going on? I think the awareness isn't, it's the awareness piece where you're aware of the things that make you curious, you're aware of what you are doing. Like some sometimes, I mean, I'll go a week without counting one thing I've done to get to where I want, quote/unquote, to be, you just go and you do it. And you forget to actually relish in the moment, become aware of what's going on in your present moment that you are doing well or that you can do better. I think that awareness piece is huge when it comes to goal setting and striving for what you want. So yes, I think at least for me, I know personally, I forget all the time to take a second, pause, sit back and be like, okay, this is today, maybe it didn't go the way I wanted it to with work or life or whatever, but here are the things that I did do so that I can get closer to living in my values of the place that I want to be. And that can change every week. I feel like it's going to pivot, it's going to change.
It's a muscle. It's a muscle you can train. Awareness of, I'm just gonna take a pause for a second and reflect on that. Everything worth paying attention to, emanates from your curiosity and your imagination, but we're in a culture that doesn't really prioritize or value the exploration of your curiosity as anything meaningful. So I think a lot of people, we all have these curious moments, but I think very few people take those seriously. We just dismiss them, or we say, well, that's crazy. Or I don't have time, or this is not who I am, or they scare us so we kind of push them down and move on. And to your point, Alexi, the idea of like valuing those and saying, how can I breathe just a tiny bit of energy into that. If it's grad school, I can go on the internet and look at a couple of schools and just find out what the admissions requirements are. Like a tiny little action that nobody would say, wow, that's a big step in the right direction, but you're like fertilizing your little plot of land with energy and then it's easier the next day to say, maybe I should find out how much this costs or when is the application due and what am I gonna have to do in order to submit it, all of those things, each day that passes where you do a little task like that, it becomes a little bit more and more real and also more believable like, oh, I'm already doing this. So maybe I am somebody who could do this thing. It's almost like the little tasks that we complete on the way should be more like the three point shots and the other things to get like two points. It should be like a bigger deal to us, but we are gonna have to assign a different value to those little tasks that you talked about. And I don't know why, but what you kept saying about like, curiosity makes me think about like curiosity, following your curiosity just feels like following your instincts. Like those are siblings, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I think of them is a little bit different, but go ahead. You think they're-
Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that they're more related than curiosity is related to like discipline and like making decisions ahead of time. And I think, this is might seem abstract, but when we talk about chasing a goal, often the association is like discipline, discipline, discipline and I think we're a little overwrought with like the furrowed brownness that that comes with. But when you talk about setting your values and then being able to follow your curiosity is like this, it feels more closely related to following your instincts. And so often the things standing in our way, I think from like really achieving a goal for the right reasons is doing it for the wrong reasons, which might be closer related to discipline. I'm just gonna root it in something specific. I chased my Olympic dream, I think, strongly because I wanted to run away from a really challenging experience with my mom and her mental health and taking her own life. And I wanted to be successful and happy 'cause it's what I thought she was not. And what I found when I got there was that achieving an Olympic dream was amazing and wonderful, but it never solved that internal problem. However, in my recent race in New York City, that felt like as big of a deal to me as the Olympics, because I had come off a huge surgery in my hamstring and I was really nervous and I knew I couldn't race. I knew I could run. And I ran the thing like a Broadway star dancing through the streets and I entirely followed my instincts. And if I had followed like my discipline of what I should do as an athlete, I wouldn't have run well, 'cause I wasn't ready to and I also wouldn't have had that experience. That was so euphoric for me as a person and I actually outgrew my fear of becoming my mother because I did my most instinctual thing, and sorry to just share this. I think it's a great example. It's a great example.
Perfect example. So like I always associated, anytime I was eccentric or a little bit strange as her territory, which felt very dangerous to me. And my whole life, I feel I've been constructing a path for myself goals that take me away from her world 'cause I don't wanna want to die. And in that moment I just decided to lean into my most curious instincts and that was the best iteration of my race that day. And it also allowed me to show myself that I could be as close to her as probably I've ever been in my life. And it didn't fail me. And so I don't know where that leaves us here, but I just wanted to share that. Yeah. I mean, I think that's beautiful. I think there's a finer point about instincts though, because it would be equally instinctual for you to have not done that because of your fear around becoming like your mother. So I think having-
I think that's gut. It's coming from her gut. But what's the difference between gut and instinct. I think gut is the whisper is your path that subconsciously knows which way to go. And developing who you are independent of your mother. Distinguishing those two is a fine art though, because a lot of people will say my instinct or my gut is to do this thing thinking that's a trustworthy impulse when in fact they're unaware that they're reacting to some past trauma or they're using it to hide for, it's a pattern. And they're like, I'm just gonna repeat the pattern and that's what my gut is telling me to do. That's not really the higher self trying to emerge and whisper to you that like you could be more. So I think part of this question or exercise in asking yourself, who do you wanna be is about that journey towards wholeness, or self-actualization such that you can get to the place where you have cultivated sufficient awareness, where you can trust those instincts or that gut, as opposed to being concerned that that instinct is actually some old pattern, trying to get you to do the thing that you always do. So in sobriety, like that's the whole thing, like when you're a newly sober, it's like you need to run all your decisions by somebody else because your instinct is the thing that got you into this problem and you can't really trust your instincts right now. You need a bunch of people to help you make better decisions until you've grown enough to where that becomes a trustworthy relationship. When did you trust your instincts again, then? I mean, it's like, it's a sliding scale. It's a slow thing. And there's still decisions that I run by lots of people because I'm like, my guts telling me I should do this. And then if 10 people who I really trust are like, no, that's a bad idea, then I need to look at myself and try to figure out like why my instinct is telling me to do this thing and everybody says I shouldn't. And sometimes my instinct's right and I shouldn't listen to those people. And other times they're 100% right and they saved me from doing something I shouldn't be doing. There's a thing in nature that is exactly what you're doing. Which is that I was taught that, I used to feel really bad when I asked for reassurance from people 'cause I thought it meant that I was self-conscious or I couldn't do it myself. And your seems to be coming from like a background of awareness and what you overcame. But I was told that the wolves in the wild that are very deadly to each other, they travel in these packs, they are constantly rubbing each other's noses and nudging each other to say like, hey, it's okay, you're safe. And therefore, we humans are meant to do that with each other even if we didn't have like the experience you had with addiction. We're supposed to like reassure each other and have our Wolf packs. And I feel like it's important to say here, because so often on these new year's resolutions, you feel like, I go alone and I won't do my task and everybody will do theirs in their lane. Or I will come out of this spring a new me and nobody will recognize. Yeah.
Yeah. And really we need each other. So it's important to say that. That is a beautiful point, for sure. And I think failing along that path of understanding your instinct and your gut is part of the process. And I think to your point about your Olympic journey and going through that, I'm sure you failed more times trying to trust your gut than you can remember. I know I did when I completed my career, it's like one thing after the next, trying to prove, prove, prove, and failing to an extent to where I could understand that this is a reaction to the past, and this is not what I'm going for in the future. So I think again, it's just stepping back and pausing and taking a second to take inventory of what is my gut telling me? Is that the past? Is it the present? Is it the future? I do this little, this is very cheesy, but with our athletes that we work with, we have these little stick figures, past, present, future. And part of the check-in at the actual session or what our mentors do with the athletes is saying, where's the head. And the athlete will draw the head on the stick figure of where they are that day, whether it's living in the past, living in the present. And I like get so emotional talking about it because it's so cute, 'cause it's so simple yet we don't pause enough to sometimes recognize where are we actually. It's where's our attention.
Where's our attention. And that's very important here to think about not just what we're doing on paper. 'Cause you could be a chef in the kitchen delivering all the things you're delivering, but your mind is on fashion. I don't know why I'm always like the chef really wants to be a fashion designer, but- I need to go to CVS and get those beads that you're wearing. He's acknowledging for everyone my beautiful beads. But so that's really what you're saying with the heads is part of setting all these goals or stepping into the future is really being honest with ourselves about where our attention truly is, versus where do we want it to be and then how do we create an environment where we can shift our attention if it needs to shift. Yes, and like that was a total tangent I just went on but that's exactly my point. That's why we're a good team. Yeah. So great, good team work. But that's, that's exactly. I mean, to your point, too, of trying to follow this path of how do I get to a goal? It's like, again, are we pausing? Where are we? What spaces is our head in? Are we actually present? Is our head and our body actually in the same location? But that can be overwhelming. Very overwhelming. Like what rich said before, it's like, all right, once we've aligned everything and we've done this and we've checked our gut and we're now we're doing this. People might go forget it, I'm out. That's a lot to check. I just wanna run a marathon, like leave me alone. So, again it's defining who you want to be. I know I keep coming back to that, but if it's just like, you know what, this doesn't have to go that deep, I just wanna run my first marathon. What do I need to do to do that successfully? And you know, I work 60 hours a week, so how am I gonna run a marathon? And it's like, all right, well, I can go through these steps that you were describing or I could just start running and training and figuring it out. And the important thing is not take myself so seriously, not put these sub three hours, sub four hour Boston qualifying goals on it and just see who I become along the process, who I become along the journey, because then you're going to get back to values and identifying and awareness. You're gonna notice these shifts where it's like, huh, I really liked that part of the training. I really liked the strength work. I really liked the long runs and you start defining, there's the curiosity to maybe follow. That goes back to this idea of becoming and the tension between that and what I think is more typical, which is the sense that you have to have it all figured out when you set the goal and this is how it's gonna go and this is how it's gonna feel when I get there. And that need to overly define everything, creates paralysis in people because they're like, well, until I figure out the ultimate running shoe, I'm not gonna start my training. And so there'll be online for days reading customer reviews of running shoes and it just becomes an excuse because there's a fear block there and whatever that thing is inside of you, that needs to like understand everything before you can begin actually is not only paralyzing you, but really handicapping you from being open to the beautiful mystery of what gets unveiled, how you are becoming just by dent of engaging with the process. Like you're not supposed to know at all. Like it's not meant to be that way. You're supposed to learn as you go. That's half the fun. And maintaining openness is key to that and that's why curiosity is so important. Because if you are truly curious about this, the more you do it, that will create more curiosity, which will lead you to different types of opportunities, and all of these things kind of percolate to the surface because you're in the doing, not in the knowing business. Yes, I was gonna go down that path, sorry. I was gonna go down to doing the doing and just being in that experience. And I don't know if that's like ruffling too many or taking us off, off topic here, but we're in this conversation of everyone's thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, how do I do this? How do I do this? Do I sit down with a notebook? Do I write these things down? And then like my supposed to know tomorrow, am I supposed to have this figured out? How do we actually not do that? And that's the conversation of like, where do we start within ourselves and within our bodies and being present, from all of your all's thoughts, where does that happen? Does that makes sense?
It does. So, I think it's like rooted in a very fact that, and this is my belief, I think it's true that actions change first, then thoughts, then feelings in that order only. Actions, then thoughts, then feelings. And so what we're all talking about is being in our heads, being super intellectualizing everything and being cerebral and needing to chase perfection before we even take a step, and I think what we all have to accept going into this new year is that, the actions will be the leader to all of those things. And maybe you start by thinking about what is the feeling I would like to have, and maybe that is related to your values, but ultimately the only thing that's gonna get you to those feelings are your actions and then your thoughts and then your feelings. That's what I believe.
I agree. Therefore, there's no reason, I'm pretty like insensitive here about like there's no writer's block. Just take the steps. And so can we just all commit to like, there's no more just like spinning around like that, like take the steps. The only way to change a story is by taking action. You can't change your narrative, you can't change the story, your story, if you don't start moving forward with action. Words are just part of a story, you're back into story, but action breaks the chain, that you're actually creating a new story, a new version of yourself tomorrow. The story is broken because the narrative has changed. You've shifted. And that there's only one way to go about that. And that is action. Sorry to interrupt the flow, we'll be right back with more awesome. But first I do wanna snag a quick moment to talk about something I care a lot about, which is the importance of nutrition. And the thing is most people I know actually aspire to eat better, to incorporate more whole plants, fruits, vegetables, seeds, beans, and legumes into their daily regimen. Sadly, however, without the proper tools and support very few end up sticking with it. And so, because adopting a plant-based diet transformed my life so profoundly, and because I want everyone to experience some version of what I've experienced, we decided to tackle and solve this very common problem. And the solution we've devised, I'm proud to say is The PlantPower Meal Planner. Our affordable all-in-one digital platform that sets you up for nutrition excellence by providing access to thousands of customizable, super delicious, easy to prepare plant-based recipes. Everything integrates with automatic grocery delivery. You get access to our team of amazing nutrition coaches, seven days a week, and many, many other amazing features. To kickstart your health intentions this new year, we're offering you $20 off a one-year membership with the code power20 throughout the entire month of January. Again, that's promo code power20 for $20 off at meals.richroll.com. All right, back to the pod. One of the things Chris that you've talked about and written about is this idea of defining potential. So if you're in a situation where you feel like you're clear on your values and you've sufficiently answered the question of like, who do you wanna be, the process of doing that defines potential and potential puts you in a situation to build momentum, energy, more curiosity, and excitement around whatever it is you're pursuing. So maybe elaborate on that a little bit. Well you guys just brought it up with regards to potential. There's an energy behind that that we wanna capture. That creates a little bit of a momentum slash dopamine hit slash effort to start the process, the start action. And I think the fun part about potential. Once you sort of get a good idea of what you wanna do, 'cause I believe values are always shifting and changing and we're never, we don't wanna wait. Okay. These are my values. Finally found them, now I can move forward. It can only different in a few weeks. That's so real though. It is a very real experience. What's an example of a value? But then keep talking. In case we're confused. Like for me, like when I reflect on, if I lived in alignment with my values today or yesterday, 'cause I journal in the morning, it's more like, did I follow through on what I said I would do today? Did I check in with my loved ones in a present way? Those things are important to me back to what I said to Rich, why? Because I've overlooked those things in the past and I wanna make them a priority now and I know those left me empty if I didn't. And so now I've been able to identify over years that that's a critical value for me. Following through on what I say, not being disciplined, but following through what I say and as well as not being so rough on the edges with regards to, well, this is what I said I do everything else is blocked out. I mean, that's our DNA for us sitting here. And so being flexible and that's a big part of it. So identifying that in every day knowing did you do that? Did you check in with that? Did you live in a lie, and whenever something comes up where I have to make a decision or I have to look at something challenging, whether it's with my kids or for myself, it's more of is this in alignment with my values? What do my values tell me? And if I don't have the answer, that's fine, there's not always gonna be black and white, but at least I asked myself that question. Do you have trouble sleeping at night before bed or like, I didn't try my best today with my values or? Those days have sort of gotten away. (all laugh) But they were definitely somewhere there in the past. (all laugh) Yeah, for sure. But that's also tied to a sense of what you were bringing up before that lack of fulfillment that I didn't apply this thinking back when I was an athlete and I wasted a lot of potential. And so, because I didn't do it with this mindset that I didn't follow through with the best of my abilities on that day, I feel like I left a lot of potential on it. And so I went chasing that for many years and I'm on a path of ultra endurance and triathlon. So yeah, it used to wake me up at night. Chris's arc is very interesting because he is a lifelong athlete who was an Olympic swimmer and then a professional triathlete and then won some Ironmans started coaching in a very Germanic way, like a very regimented here's your training plan. I'm gonna get you to Kona or what have you. And over many years of just life and experience, you're now in this very expanded capacity in how you mentor and coach people. It's really much more of a life coaching than it is about like regimens for getting you across a certain finish line. And it's been really cool to watch that evolution and see all of the personal growth in you and how that trickles down or translates into how you interact with all of your athletes that you work with. But it ties into what we were saying just earlier. I use endurance athletics, endurance experiences, endurance adventures as a vehicle to bring out that growth in people it's not just physical, physical is the excuse for having the conversation about their spiritual and mental growth too. That's just my avenue. There's other ways in meditation or psychedelics or therapy but I believe over the years that endurance in athletics has given many people the time and the space, they've created space for themselves out there immersed in nature to spend that time with themselves and ask themselves these questions. And so that's where the work is, the fact that you have this outlet, this time, well, if I'm gonna be out here on a five-hour run or a six hour bike ride or a four-hour swim just in your head, I might as well use that time and prompts and thoughts with athletes around that. That's really beautiful because it also suggests that the sport, if it's sport, or if it's these other, you called it an outlet, the vehicles that they're only there to service our personal growth and that you see humans as changing things, that that's what life is really. And I think for everybody trying to set these goals, let's just say it's a sport that you've been doing. I think we have to let go of any hope that it will be the same as it once was. And we're never trying to put back together what we were because we are growth mindset people and it will evolve with us and I think sport is a tough one because we are always trying to stay forever preserved or something in a snow globe of ourselves and sports are meant to grow with us. And I think that's important to accept as we go into our goals, whatever those are athletic or otherwise, and know that we will evolve and the sport or whatever our pursuit is, should evolve with us. We're always evolving exactly what you're saying and that old version of us. And again, athletics and sport allows us to do that. What were just saying about shedding the past story and narrative, athletics is one way to see it, tangibly see, I am no longer that person from six months ago, who could barely run a 10K. Now I can run a 20K comfortably. I'm a new normal, I'm a new person. I'm a different person from who I was back then, as well as the things I shed with that, in order to be something, do something you've never done before, whether that's an endurance adventure, or go to grad school, you have to do things different than you've ever done them. So maybe a new year's resolution, isn't just like putting on a new goal cape, but it's also like taking off the skin that we were before. Like we have to visualize that it's both, it's not just like another coat and then another jacket on top. And then cause you then can't carry anything at all. You're just full of jackets. It's true. But that's how we (indistinct) the pandemic in 2021, that thing should die, goodbye. Goodbye, right? And we're emerging out of that, we're evolving out of that and who do we wanna emerge as. We had this discussion going into the pandemic, what do you wanna be on the other side of this? We just dropped on the other side of this too. Who you wanna be? What did you guys say? You ave to tell us. Well, we were talking more from a Coaches' Corner athletes, self, and being prepared for when events open back up, this was like two years ago. We were like-
But what did you say? I mean Boston will happen in November and like you ready to go at any time? And it did. But we talked a lot about that being prepared and what's important to you in your training so that even when no one's looking, even when there are no events, you are looking, you're looking at yourself and you're following through on your own growth because that serves you. And you following through on your training and what you said you would do serves your community because you're a leader and you sort of are that beacon of health and consistency and fitness for your community. And you're also growing from a standpoint of the craft itself. I'm doing this when nobody's looking. And so all those things combined again, that can be value, no matter what time it is, whether it's new year or coming in and out of a pandemic, these things, you do them because you care. You add meaning and a personal aspect and a purpose to it so that you're just working on improving just you, your craft, what you decide to be your craft and nobody has to be looking. And again, it always goes back to the becoming because the pursuit of that craft, the anonymous things that you do every day to improve yourself when nobody's looking is the crucible that allows you to grow and expand and evolve. So it's not about the time standard, it's about the person that you become because of the daily practice of the doing the thing. I'm sure there's many different avenues and vehicles for this kind of exploration, but I do think there's something unique and special about endurance sports, because it requires that you spend a lot of time alone. Preferably in nature in an elevated heart rate state, but not too elevated. So it almost creates this calming of the mind and a active meditation state that allows you to perform a little self inquiry, get present with yourself and ruminate on all of these bigger questions that we don't permit ourselves to indulge in our busy lives or we just don't ever have a quiet bandwidth to do so. So it kind of forces you into that. And you know, I just know for myself, that's the greatest gift of trying to achieve a goal in this sport because it takes you on this journey and there's countless stories of people. They crossed the finish line, they achieved their goal or they don't achieve their goal, but they are changed in the process of doing it and they are never the same. And when I looked Alexi, you talked about running the New York city marathon, like you're capable of running a marathon in X amount of time. You threw that out the window, you started with the elite women, they ran off and you just had a good time. And that might be the most meaningful race that you've ever done. Like people loved it and you got to connect with so many people. And I'm sure when you cross that finish line, that you were changed in a certain type of way because of the choices you made and the attitude that you brought to having a different kind of experience. But you have to be ready to have her story, because if you're not ready for it, you get crushed when the elite women run away from you. You're holding onto the old narrative of who I was. The snow globe. Why am I not-
Why am I not up there? And you start self, you beat yourself up about it. And you're like, ugh I've been injured and I know I'm capable of that. And this whole rights thing starts perpetuating, but you are in a place where you're ready to say I'm okay. But I had to set it up. Like, look, I hired a makeup designer. (all laugh) No, no, no, this is true.
The glitter bomb. I had this adorable Greek makeup designer come to my room the night before and paint a star on my face and glitter because I knew that if I was going to fall back from a pack, people know me and I didn't want them to think this person's injured or, and I wanted to remind myself that it was meant to be fun. And so I do think what you're saying is, we need to try to be mindful before we enter the battle of chasing our goal for what our values really are, because had I not put any thought into it, I would have honestly tried to race and I would have done things that would have not been aligned with what my values were that day. So we do have to create the environment where we're most likely to be able to pursue those values. I think that-
And not beat ourselves up about it because like I had a conversation with an athlete yesterday and he's struggling with some things and he knows he, I asked him, well, what was hardest for you last week? And he's like, well, this one morning, I just didn't wanna get out of bed. I'm like, great, let's dive into that. So we spoke about that a little bit, but it's similar in that I bring it up in that, you prepared yourself that if the narrative comes up you have a response to it. You had already thought ahead that when those elite women move away from you, I have an answer to those doubts, to that negative voice on my shoulder and I've created this fun action that I'm gonna have today and this intention for today that I'm not gonna let it get me down. I'm gonna actually embrace it and enjoy it. It's setting up a picnic for your future self. Like you set the picnic up and you're like, and maybe this answers your question about your friend of like, what's my future self it's like, imagine you're setting up a nice, beautiful picnic for you and your future self, and you're gonna set the table and you're gonna bring all the goodies and you hope that they'll love it. And probably they will.
But what if it rains. Then you're there with them. (all laugh) At least you have an answer. And that's what I would say (indistinct) with the athlete. I was like, all right you know this resistance is coming in the morning, to get up for swimming. But now why don't you write out an index card the night before of what happens if it rains at my picnic. So that when it comes up, when that alarm goes off, you already know that index card is lying right there and I already wrote out what my response is going to be to my future self, picnic self, because it's raining. But I'm still gonna have the picnic because there's other things to be enjoyed in that moment, friends, like you said, for him, get out the door, get the workout done. 'Cause you know, after you always feel great. But you had that first impetus. So that's huge that you prepare yourself, again you're aware what we said within the first 90 seconds of talking. Awareness of seeing what's happening to you and working with that. You don't have to have an answer to it. You don't have to be better than it, but that you're just aware of what's happening and you can sort of work with it, dance with that devil with that resistance, whatever we wanna call it, I like "Resistance". I love that book. I think behind that also is, it's important to try to figure out a way to connect with joy. So in the context of like Alexi's race, it's like, okay, well, how can I make this fun? Like how can I make this an uplifting experience for me and maybe other people as well. And I just know, as I get older and I find myself indulging in that snow globe comparison thing, like I used to be able to do this, why can't I do it now? Or what would I have to do in my life to get back to that place? Whereas the healthier responses, how can I make this a joyful experience? And that doesn't mean that there isn't a grind involved in a pain outlet of it later, kind of relationship to having to do things you don't necessarily wanna do in that moment, but in the grander scheme, it's a joyful pursuit. And I think for me, that means detaching from metrics and results and things like that. And just looking at it as this journey of personal growth and evolution and community and nature and all of these things that got me into it in the first place. So joy, I think is a cousin to curiosity, when you feel those moments of curiosity, percolating up, usually if you indulge them, there's a little bit of joy that happens with that. Like how can you figure out how to channel that joy and make sure that whatever goals that you're setting or ambitions that you're harboring for yourself, have that joy piece in there, because if it's joyful or there is at least a bedrock of joy to it, you're more likely to stay with it and it will get you through the tougher moments. So what happens though, when people struggle accessing joy or have the guilt around doing something for a joyful reason. Like it has to be hard. It has to be intense and painful. And I'm speaking from my past self in many ways. I get that. That's why joy is hard for me. 'Cause it's like, if I'm not suffering, I'm not working hard enough. It's so hard for me too.
It should be better. I could be better, unless it's super hard. Joy is really-
Chris is laughing. Joy is so confusing.
It's so true. But Joy is contagious. People love seeing joy. It rubs off on people. So I think we have to accept that our joy is not exclusive to us. Our joy is like a bubble around us that people can get a little bit of. But how do you, I guess- But I understand you're saying it from like, if you're a competitive athlete and your brow isn't furrowed, are you doing it hard enough? I think it's the number one conversation I've had in the past year, actually with my closest friends. And I don't know if the pandemic brought this up or what, but it's like, I don't like, things should be hard. Like I should struggle through this for it to be rewarding. You and I've had this conversation and it can be a difficult thing to access that joy. Like what does it feel like? Like what does it feel like to be joyful? What does it feel like to want this amazing quote/unquote goal that has joy along with it? Am I supposed to struggle along the way? Like how do I find that joy along the way? I think it's a broad conversation, but it's something that I think we can all- Relate to.
Yeah, relate to and talk about. Because it's an important one, especially when there is a lot of suffering in the world and people think, oh, I shouldn't be having a joyful goal to go, summit X peaks and how, what a nice life I have. Like I shouldn't, I mean, these are conversation I hear all the time. And it's a real conversation. In our family tree of words that are cousins and siblings, I feel like we are putting a challenge and pain and grit and all those things that you're talking about, hard, really, really close to the word integrity. Because you're basically saying that if you don't have all those things, then you're not like trying your best and you don't have integrity. And maybe we should talk about integrity if maybe that's not even the right word should be closer to joy and can joy be closer related to integrity. Does that feel like the judgment, the note beneath the note, like what's the judgment on a person who's not gritting like that? Is it that that they're a bad person. I think it goes back to what you were saying at the beginning too, what do they believe to be true about themselves to begin with? 'Cause I think that's why people don't access joy. 'Cause you're saying what does being joyful and chasing joy say about me. Yeah. Like I don't work hard enough. It shouldn't come easily to me. You're a trivial person 'cause you're not exerting enough grit. And if you're perhaps not that joyful, but not working that hard, then you're a weak person. And I'm not saying don't, I'm all for joy over here. I think it's an important thing. And it's just a conversation I've heard more often than I would have expected over the past year, which begs many different questions. What you're saying is, what you're hearing is that it would be indulgent of me to pursue something that brings me joy in this moment of difficulty for everybody and I don't feel deserving of that. Or what does that even feel like? I think that's different though, that's a different avenue of that than the I'm not working hard enough if I'm not suffering. Yeah, those are different things. I think that those are two different things. I think the first one does tie into the values again, and what's important to me, and it's okay that I go further myself despite these times, because guess what, when I come back from that call to adventure, as Joseph Campbell says with the elixir and I can contribute more energy and love and joy to my community and bring that wisdom and that growth with me and try in my best way to to disseminate that. I think that's a bigger contribution overall than worrying in the moment what others might think of me. That's a bigger question that we're running into right now with regards to mental health. Like I need to take care of myself and if that is something that I wanna follow through on and brings me joy, or even just that I feel drawn to, or there's a curiosity pulling me towards that, that is a nugget that we should pursue. I almost feel like crying because in the last couple of weeks, I feel like I've aligned myself with more brands. I'm still a sponsored athlete and I have aligned myself with brands that have actually embraced me as a whole person and it's made me realize how much before that I felt like I had to be what you said, this like furrowed brow person. And I would segment off all the parts of my life from each other so that I appeared to be doing what everybody wanted me to do in those worlds. And it was a really hard, I felt like an octopus ride, like eight legs and they were all in different directions and they couldn't touch each other. And last week I finally I saw you Rich in Texas, but I finally got to spend time with a team mate just joined that, it actually really does embrace me for the whole thing and that joy was okay. And I feel so embarrassed to like, say that it took me a really long time to feel like that was okay. And now I feel like after New York, I got so many messages of people who were like, I'm gonna run a race and smile. And I was like, almost cried because why couldn't they do that before? And why did they have to see me do that in order for them to feel like they could enjoy a race or like dance or something. And so I just feel like my whole life is changing now and I wanna be more joyful and that I'm not hurting anybody by being joyful. And I think all we want is to not hurt people or disappoint them. Like I even told you Rich that I felt I didn't wanna disappoint you because I drank. And that was a really hard thing to tell you. I don't know why I'm feeling this here like this. It's real though. What you're saying is extremely real. I think maybe our experience as a woman can be different trying to please and have that feeling as an athlete. Like I have to make, make sure everybody approves of me. I don't know, I'm not in y'all shoes so I don't know. I mean, certainly that burden is heavier- It's heavy.
If you're a female athlete. I think it can be heavy in maybe a different way. I'm only speaking for myself, I can't speak for everybody else, but I think that does tie into everything we're talking about. Because when we sit here and have this feeling of, I need to do these things. It's like, for who? Again, who are you becoming? For who, what are we doing this? I think it's beautiful what you said, Alexi. But that also ties into what we were saying earlier. Like if you're other parts of you, your eight legs aren't integrated towards the values and principles of you, truly, you, then it feels like that. And when it all comes together, it doesn't have to be in perfect alignment, but they're all sort of working towards the same north star, your energy and love and joy and passion and what you exude is 10 times more powerful. And people feel that, they feel that. You have let go, your lighter and you exude an energy and a joy because you are getting more and more in alignment towards that higher self of you and the energy that you were scattering amongst those eight legs. Before it was still amazing energy but now it's all coming together into one energy packet and that's gonna, it took me 25 years to figure this out. The fact that you're figuring it out now. And I think it goes in ebbs and flows too. I know there's been times in my life where I wouldn't have ever questioned joy. And then other times where I'm like, wait, no, I can't possibly have fun. Or like, I can't possibly do this and enjoy, I need to like stay here and focus and do the, and it robs the joy like ironically, everything is taken from that experience. And I don't even have the same experience and then I end up not even doing the thing that I wanted to do because there was no joy attached to any of it. Being overly regimented. And it's right there. That's immersing verses attending because when we showed up with that furrowed brow because we had to. Because we told ourselves with a past story, well, this is just who we are, what we need to do now. Someone told us that, or our society or whomever, whatever. And that's what we are told. Whereas you don't tell a writer or an artist or a musician to just show up, they show up with this energy and this passion and this depth that if I'm going to do it, I'm gonna show up with all myself. And they bring this totally different energy to it and it's immersing versus attending, what I say. You're immersing yourself in the moment versus just attending. I love, I'm gonna write on the whiteboard. It's also allowing versus forcing. Like if you contrast that athlete mentality of like willfulness and I'm gonna make it happen and I'm holding on so tightly versus a more creative pursuit, like if you watch the Beatles documentary, like they're hanging out, and a lot of it is fucking around and that's because you need that in order to create the space for the little spark to arise. You have to hold it loosely in order for the magic to occur. And you can't be like strict on your timetable or your agenda. And I think there's something to be said for approaching your athletic pursuits or other pursuits in your life with that sensibility. And I think endurance provides you with those quiet moments. Like, 'cause you're out, you can't be multitasking when you're out by yourself on a trail or whatever, like you're just left with yourself. So it's built in to that practice. But if you're trying to get into grad school or whatever it is that you're pursuing, like understanding that the best ideas come in the most unlikely moments, they don't come when you're sitting down and like forcing them to happen. Holding on to tight. I'm reading this book right now and I circled a couple paragraphs, but it was all about how you have to look out the window for at least 20 minutes a day with zero agenda. Just look out the window. It's like window gazing. But the whole point of that is to do something mindless and joyful that isn't productive for you to be able to then be productive. And I know it's it's we hear it all the time. Like just do something, not productive to them be productive, but it's the same thing with sports. My best race is my best performances were when I was laughing behind the blocks and enjoying myself and with my peers and on a relay or doing, almost missing my race as a 15 year old because I'm having so much fun in the moment in that joyous state. And I think that, yes, I don't need to be missing races and doing whatever. But the point is is that you can lose yourself in that experience to really then be able to catapult yourself for the goal that you want. Well, it goes back, sorry, you were gonna say something? No, I can speak after you. I always wanna hear what you have to say. It goes back to the alter ego thing. You're having fun and cracking up and you have your best race because you're being who you really are in that moment. And I think we have this idea of like when I'm training, I'm the Ironman guy. And then I go to work and I'm the work guy and I go home and I'm the dad and the partner. And you're toggling between all these different identities where you're kind of calibrating how you behave and act and conduct yourself based upon the environment or the circumstance and this idea of who do you wanna be, or who are you or who are you becoming if you're driving that inquiry in the right direction, it's about integrating all of these things so that you're authentically who you are, no matter the context. That you don't have to develop alter egos or kind of toggle who you are based upon who you're interacting with. And you can definitely use those other versions that can spill over. Don't get me wrong, there's a big benefit in being able to craft your athlete's self early on and sort of see who you want to become and then see those things and see how you can apply some of those things in the other versions of yourself, but they can't be completely separate. Like Superman is in Clark Kent and Clark Kent is in Superman. Although he goes into the phone booth. And that's the whole, like the deeper part of it or like Batman. That's the whole point of that entire series is that you can't escape the shadow that lives within you. And like you have to integrate those two. Those are two human beings that live within you. And same thing for us as athletes or as amazing professionals, you work to 80 hours a week. Well, you can't shut that off when you're with your family, it's part of who you are. So you have to figure out how to sort of integrate those and again, awareness that who do I wanna be when I'm with my kids or when I'm with my wife or with one with my friends or when I'm with myself. And eliminating any of the shoulds. I think we can all just try and get that word out of our vocabulary now, because it's not that helpful 'cause it implies that there's an imposition from the world. And I think we could eliminate the shoulds and then rather just see the world as an abundant place where we belong and we are accepted and assume that that will be the case. And probably, unfortunately we'll have some surprises that will hurt us, but that's just a lovely part of life. And I think that when we have those people or things that make it feel hard to continue the course, I've tried to like amuse in those moments as best I can and understand that not everybody is on our same page or something or, I don't know how you deal with it when you feel like you're doing the right thing towards your goals or your being your valued self and it's not accepted. It could instead of should.
Ah, okay. It's who can I be not who should I be. And again, it's always falling forward. Potential has this amazing energy in it that you can see optimism at all times. It's potential to change, it's potential to grow. It's a potential to achieve. And whatever it is, it could be a minuscule little goal or objective. But you have the potential and therefore the energy to achieve it. And that's the beauty of this sort of energy of potential. It allows you, we are the only creatures that can set a future thing, a potential and then change to become it. But what if someone doesn't believe in themselves? 'Cause you're saying basically that you should just assume you have the potential and what if someone is like, I don't think I have it, but I want this thing. Well, then you look backward and see where you've come from. Because you've come from something, you've grown from something, you fallen forward from somewhere. Or you find someone who's done it in, in challenging circumstances and you just decide if they, like if we can't look up to ourselves, maybe we maybe that's why we're on this planet together to look to each other for those permissions. And having those conversations with each other back to the, you know, if you don't believe in yourself, what do you believe about yourself? And usually the opposite of that is the answer. That's really a good one.
So it's like, I can't do X, Y, Z, then you flip it and that's the, and it's a practical way to do it. And it's not like sit down, write it down. But it also is like, I, at least I do, every year, regardless of what month it is usually not January 'cause I just try not to do the whole January thing personally. But if it's like June or something, I write down my limitations. Like I believe these things about myself. I'm not creative enough. I don't have enough time to make art. I don't have the skills to do X. Like all of the things that I believe negatively about myself, which is honestly very hard to do and it's extremely, what's the word I'm looking for? It's daunting 'cause you don't wanna look at yourself in that way. You don't wanna admit it, but these are all of the little voices and the gremlins that just continue to tell you these things throughout the year and they build up and then you flip it and then you're able to see, I can believe in myself, it's not easy to get to these places, but what can I do now to put myself? I think that's part of the path that you described when you talk about goal setting, it's like taking the layers off so that you can then add them back on. But that's at least helpful for me when I don't believe in myself. 'Cause I think it's gonna happen. It'll happen forever and never, never, even though deep down innately, I know that I can, those are still thoughts. Those are still experiences. I think to some extent, we're all victims of allowing past to limit our potential. And we tend to gravitate towards past narratives and allow them to dictate outcomes. Well, that happened to me and things don't work out. We create stories around certain events or traumas that have occurred in the past and we assign them deeper meaning than they deserve to have. And that creates a future reality for ourselves. So I think that practice that you described is super important. One thing that I would add to that, like if you, if you write out, here are all the kind of negative things that I believe about myself and you list them out, then I think a powerful exercise is to disprove those by reaching into your memory and searching for occurrences or things that you've done or things that have happened that put that to the lie. I believe that I can't achieve a hard goal and then like list all the things that you actually have achieved or things that disprove that. And I think that creates a really tactile way of crafting a new narrative that allows you to kind of believe in a different story for yourself. 'Cause you're grounding it. 'Cause a lot of what we feel about ourselves are just like clouds in the sky and we're trying to like grab them, but they're just like feeling clowns. But what you're saying is like let's pin them down on the ground and like actually look at them and see that they're like a lot less powerful down there. Or just plain, not true. Right, they're just absolutely false. And to everyone's point about community and to what you just said about finding someone to talk to about it. I mean, you do it all the time. You talk to athletes about these kinds of things all the time. It's powerful when someone can remind you and help you see a different angle of the situation. It's like, okay, you wanna do this? What do you believe? Now, let me remind you about the things that are opposite of those things. We all need a little bit of help sometimes. A wolf pack.
It's helpful. And some who need more than ever. The wolf pack, it comes back. I mean, some of us are surrounded by people who tell us we're awesome all the time and that we can do whatever we set our mind to. And a lot of people are surrounded by people that are tearing them down constantly or telling them they can't do these things and how dare they dream big for themselves or who are they to believe that they could go and do this thing? Like get back to work, be the person that I need you to be or expect you to be. Or I want you to be. Or I want you to be.
'Cause you're sacring me with you coming somebody. Because it's very-
and that's just not comfortable for me. And that comes in a wide spectrum. It can be very subtle. It can be very overt. It can be abusive. But it's nonetheless pernicious anyway, you slice it. So for somebody who is in that situation where they feel trapped because of their social circumstances or family or whatever, it becomes a lot harder to do that, it requires a lot more-
Imagination. Great point there.
It requires your imagination because then you can, and we talked about the word imagination and how that's gonna play in via secret weapon this year. Because if you don't have the people immediately around you boosting you up, I think you still have to figure out how to get that and stay on your own team and you can adopt like satellite mentors. You can listen to audio books and podcasts and watch things that make you feel the things you wanna feel. And then pretend that those people are talking directly to you. Because in this journey to our goals, we have to do what's useful. And the thing I remember, and I have no idea if I told you this, but like when I was really, when I had the postal limbic depression, I had these awful days, like horrible days, no one could make me feel better, but I had the best dreams. Like I've never had good dreams. I always have crazy bad dreams. I had the most like euphoric dreams and I told my psychologist, I was like, I don't know what to do, my days are the worst and my dreams are the best. I never wanna wake up. And he was like, all right, well then just pretend your dreams are real. 'Cause like you made those dreams anyway and just pretend they're real. And so he basically was like, you have to use your imagination here. And I think for those of us who don't have the support in the traditional way or in the ways we'd like, there's still no excuse to finding the support that we need, even if it takes imagination. So just stay, we have to stay on our own team. And then a really practical thing that I do, is if I'm having a bad day, I've shared this, but my college friend, Becca told me that if you're having a bad day, so when I'm having a bad day, I put on my pajamas, get back in bed. Or if I'm somewhere else, I just pretend and just lay and close my eyes for one minute and then jump out of bed and yell new day and now I'm allowed to have a new day. I love it.
That's a great one. I know, that's brilliant. Especially all of us working from home. And you could do this at like 10:00 a.m. or at 5:00 p.m. And like you're allowed to imagine that this is a new day. Like what's so arbitrary, the sky is out. You know what I mean? The moon isn't the right place. Just imagine it's a new day. Like we have to use our imagination here and not see everything as a reason why we're not gonna get to our goals. But as a reason why we are anyway. And it's back to the fund aspect that Rich was bringing up. Enjoy. This is supposed to be fun. Which a lot of people struggle with. Especially the kick out of the new year and they have this expectation for themselves and they quickly lose that fun. And then it becomes a vicious cycle of just beating yourself up and it's almost worse 'cause then you feel like, well, I tried and I couldn't do it. And I'm proving that story that I knew deep down was true that I suck and I can't do hard things. It's like, you always wanna prove yourself but maybe this year we shall prove ourselves wrong. Yeah, you have to prove that you're year- Because you're basically saying, we are inherently hard on ourselves and our default setting is to be like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not capable or this and that. So maybe instead of our heart, 'cause the heart always wants to be right. So you always wanna be like, see, I will get rejected or see, I will fail. And maybe like, we can allow ourselves to be wrong. And that is really hard for high achieving athletes because we wanna be perfect. And part of being perfect is having the thing we feel in our heart, which might be an adequacy be true. And I feel like something that I'm trying to do is understand that I'm wrong a lot of the times, like I mess up and just last week I got in a fight with my friend. I feel so bad 'cause I'm so much older than someone who's got a fight with a friend. And I was like, felt so bad. And I apologized and I feel like I said, sorry, and all this stuff. And I wasn't very good at that growing up because we're so stubborn and we just wanna be right. And I was like, I was wrong. And it freed me because he accepted my apology and we're totally fine. And it proved to me that I could be wrong and still survive. And I think, I don't know why I got to this point, but like, we're wrong a lot of the time so we shouldn't think that the thing we fear most inside is true. I think that's right. And I think a lot of it is there's a lot to be learned from trying to return to a more childlike state in all of this. Because as kids, we're naturally curious, we wanna have adventures, we're not afraid. We're not hard on ourselves. Yeah, we're not hard on ourselves, like fear, insecurity, defeatism all of these things are learned behaviors that wear us down over time and distance ourselves from like that kind of pure, beautiful nature that still is within us, but needs a little tarnishing. And I think the more that we can connect with that, whatever goal you set for yourself, it allows you to kind of pursue it with more of that, like joy and curiosity and imagination. Like wild flowers.
It's interesting you say that because you know, a lot of athletes at this time of year, you're going into the new year already at your lowest mood. It's dark, it's hard time of year the holidays, but also there's no races. I know a lot of my athletes, they struggle at this time of year with motivation. And so then you're supposed to create this new thing just cause the day changes. The days aren't so-
Be all excited about it. And be all excited. So you're already coming in the low energy and you're sort of trying to pump yourself up. And I think that ties into why a lot of people struggle with following through 'cause you already came in with like, ugh, the holiday holidays are wearing me down, I'm stressed out, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, it's dark, there's no sun. All the things I like to do or I'm not able to do. And there's been no events so I don't have that high from, training for something and so you come into it. So it's a hard time of year already and it turns into this like laborious exercise of like, all right, who do I wanna be? On top of all the exhaustion. Exactly. And that takes the fun and the imagination and the childlike state out of any of it. It's so far removed. So it's figuring out like how do I emerge into spring with maybe some energy to do the things that I wanna do in the early summer or summer and I'm not starting from scratch. Like even just little steps like that saying, okay, how do I wanna come out of hibernation? Forgive myself for now. I don't wanna train right now. I don't wanna work out right now. I don't wanna do a lot of stuff. I'm just low energy that's okay. But let's take a longer term approach. Like who do I wanna be on April ones? So what can I do today gently that'll help me prepare for April one, maybe not January one or February one, because it just puts this pressure on it of like, well, I have to train, I have to do this 'cause it's January. Who do I wanna be early summer? I wanna run 100K let's say on trails in the early summer. Okay, let's just figure out then today, maybe this week I'll run 30 minutes three times, It's a start. It's a start of something. And I can at least build some momentum around that. Because I think we often overlook that we enter a new year already pretty low. It's not like you flip a switch and everything is great.
The sun's out, it's 85 degrees, you feel amazing.
You're on an island tanning. You're back to your basement- ridding the trainer. And how do you differentiate between kind of indulging in that self care of like, oh, I'm tired and I'm just gonna take a break and that's okay, I'm not gonna beat myself up versus okay dude, come on, you can get out there, don't be too soft on this. I mean, you wanna set hard dates for that stuff. Like if I'm going to take two weeks off and let go or three weeks, well then I will let go and I will build up the energy. See, and I I'll finish this thought, I keep running into athletes that don't wanna fully stop so that when they need to restart again, they don't have that hunger, that energy that bent up like, okay, finally, I can get straight again. I'm like, stop, stop everything. I want you to feel terrible. Then kick out and go, okay, finally, I can get back into my routine. Finally, I feel good and healthy again, because let's say not six months, but like, let's say two, three, four weeks even where you say that to yourself and you go, all right, I have to reset completely in order to appreciate, to find the joy again, that when I I'm like, oh, I missed this so much. That is the hardest thing for athletes though, to really completely pause. And I'm horrible at it. Like that's why probably after the Olympics, even if I took a week or two off training kind of did, my mind was on the next thing and it was on it yesterday. And I think sometimes we have to be completely knocked off our feet in order to do that and that's such a shame because at that point like I only paused really when I had this surgery. Like if I'm being really honest, that's the only time I've truly paused completely as an athlete and let myself reset. And that was because I literally could not move off my couch and that's a problem. And so I think there's two parts to this. Like one embracing that, we should probably build in like some vocabulary where there's a chapter after a big peak or before a big buildup, that is a part of chasing that dream and it's completely necessary. I guess I think there's more vocabulary now when someone, when a woman gives birth, that there's the next trimester after is like a more normalized thing. So we should probably build into our vocabulary that that's actually like normal and safe. And it's not an indulgence it's like necessary. And then also I think about the butterfly thing. Like I think about how when I was, look because I still have trouble pausing myself, I was kind of forced to pause at one point because like a nerve in my back was irritated because I didn't pause when I needed to. And I felt like I was completely reduced to like nothing. And my mentor told me that when caterpillar's become butterflies, they go into their Chrysalis and they become liquid glop, like complete liquid and then they grow into a butterfly. They're not just a caterpillar, that sprouts wings. And what was so beautiful about that, is I think as athletes and as high-achieving people, whatever we are, when we are reduced to like that pause state, whether you're injured or whether you choose to take a pause, we assume that it's bad and we assume that we would like to put back together whatever we were and we'll get back to it. And what he was basically saying, 'cause I kept calling myself a hot mess and he was like, "No, you're not a hot mess. You are glop and you're becoming a butterfly." And so I recontextualized it in my mind as that pause, which I wish I had imposed upon myself instead of mother nature reigning this pain on my back, was a natural and good thing. And then I started marching around my house and I was like, I'm glop, I'm glop and I'm gonna become a butterfly. And he was like the difference between humans and caterpillar's is that humans have to feel the pain of glophood. So the pain of pausing, that could be really painful for people or the pain of the actual pain you're in. And caterpillars or humans could choose to try to go back to the caterpillar state and just be what they were. And I may be like, leaping on what you say and assuming that the people you're talking to have a lot of trouble being in the Chrysalis and the cocoon, and they don't believe in it and they wanna get out of it. And they don't think it's helping them. They think it is a pause and a hurdle rather than a process of moving forward. It's hard to see yourself in the mirror when you're moving, but when you stop, you see yourself in the mirror and you might have to confront somethings. Terrifying. But when you're moving you're always charging and moving forward. You're all a moving target.
Exactly. You said the word safe and that's so real. 'Cause you're always safe when you're moving forward. Which is interesting because-
And it validates you too. It's the opposite of what you think. Moving forward or back to everything we were saying. So we inherently feel unsafe. Active denial.
Yeah. Active denial. I know I had the same exact situation with my heel. I mean, I didn't see a single thing until I stopped and then reminded me again and I stopped again. And so I think it's important to address why we feel unsafe when we are pausing. I remember like back in the '80s with swimming, if you were to take two weeks off, it was like, oh my God, two weeks. Like if somebody took a season off, it would be like, well, they'll, they'll never come back. There's no way they could ever come back. But it's changing so much. This past year specifically, because mental health is such a topic on everybody's minds, but in the athlete context, what we've seen with Simone Biles and all these other very high profile athletes who are taking a stand for mental health, I think it's changing that conversation. I think what you said is true Alexi like this idea of looking at, not only building in rest periods, as fundamental as Chris was talking about, but looking at them as part of the growth, as opposed to an obstacle to the goal. And relishing in that, that glop state, that's what I call it. I want a shirt that says it. Glop state.
Just glop. I'm in the glop state.
Relish your glop state. But here's the thing though, with Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka's situation, what was so challenging to watch was that they expressed like a feeling or a sensation or a fear of a sensation, like a fear of pain to come and they wanted to protect themselves from that. And some people responded really positively, but some people said where's the MRI. Like where's the proof. And that is really, really dangerous because there's not always gonna be proof on an MRI for a mental health or physical health injury and what I've seen over and over again and experienced myself is that we need to, when there's not proof of that pain, simply that we said it needs to be enough. Like the word needs to have value in and of itself. And I think it's lost its value, at least in my observations of the world. And I hope that this year, people take that word without the MRI and accept it as real, because otherwise we're gonna hurt ourselves and we're gonna do that active denial endorsed by society. And throw into that how long it took that athlete, those ladies to even accept themselves sayingit . So first you have to accept yourself saying it before the waterfall of resistance comes at you by others with their expectations for you, but your own expectations and you feeling like you're letting yourself down, like what we were saying, like brow furrowed and focused like, and letting go. I mean, that's the world of, again, holding on so tight and then all of a sudden recognizing you've gone way past the point and you should've stopped back there. And I think what you're saying, Alexi, is also our ability to remain with listening to our gut. What you call instinct. it's like, we know it, we know it's there and just trusting and believing in it because it always works out for the better. Every time I've trusted my gut in my life, as well as when nature comes raining down and does this thing afterwards months, years after I look back and I say, that was the best thing that could have happened to me. But what if you're like a college girl trying to tell your coach, you're fighting for a spot on the cross country team and you're trying to tell them my gut feels like this is not great for me or I need a pause, I think we need to equip people with vocabulary that will translate to audiences that might not be ready to hear it. And so I think part of what we're saying here needs to come with like some guidance on like what words will possibly resonate with the people that need to hear it who don't understand it yet. I know that you're saying that we need to understand it ourselves, but I just think about like a scared 20 year old girl who thinks running this race might not be a good idea, but doesn't know how to advocate. Or if she raises her hand and says that, that she'll just get cut.
Exactly. I think it just goes back to coaches and whomever looking within themselves and actually understanding what it means for themselves. And I'm just speaking from a perspective of, I think there's resistance maybe to hearing that an athlete isn't okay. It's like, what do you mean you're not okay. No, no, you have to be okay. Like you have to perform. And so maybe it's just sitting as a coach or as a mentor, as a guide or whomever. And to your point earlier, as well, looking within yourself and saying, what have I been through that I can then pass on to my athletes. So I think it takes everybody doing the introspection, everybody becoming aware of their own internal experience to then accept what someone's telling you. What an athlete is telling you. But I don't know that those coaches are listening to what our conversation right now. I don't know that people, I'm just being honest that I don't know if the people who really need to hear it are actually listening to this conversation. And I think what I would say to this young girl who is our fictitious person in front of us now, is that like you returned to the common goal 'cause I think all the people hearing it and need to know is that we all want the same thing. Like we all want to win the cross country championships. You know what I mean? We all want that and I think the best thing to get there is to take this race off or whatever. And I think part of this conversation is when we're trying to rally people onto our new year's goals, 'cause you don't wanna do it despite everybody, it's nice to have people on your same page. I think it's important to include them as if every decision you're making for yourself is also best for the team or whatever that team is, a family, a coach. And the only reason I'm saying this is 'cause I feel like a lot of what I hear is like, yes, I want all that for myself But there's so many barriers in my way. And trying to help people do it despite the barriers, which might be coaches or something else. I mean, I have two thoughts on that one, and too often it's about the coaches and they think it's about me versus the athlete. And it's the accolades the coaches are getting, which then goes up to athletic director, which then goes up to the (indistinct), right. So, and it's never about them, it's about the athlete. And so that's a whole culture that I don't think we're gonna solve right now. But whenever I see that, I'm always like, it's a coach making it about themselves because they look good in that arena or at that race or in that national championship when they're winning. If you're not listening to your athletes, so that's the one side. But it's also what you were just saying with new years, it's also back to who you want to be and when I close my eyes and I visualize who I want to be, that means at that finish line, my family's there and they're supporting me and they don't think I'm a jerk because of the last 12 weeks or 16 weeks of training. They're actually like, you know what? He did all training and he still was present for us. And he was still, I still was an effective person at work and all those things too often. Again, when we create these alter or split personalities, we push the others away and we don't realize how they're being affected by us, on our self care, growth, fitness movement. And we need to think about that prior, especially if it's a curious goal that hasn't been part of our repertoire in the past where it's like, guess what? I wanna try this thing. It's gonna take a lot of training hours and it's gonna be running in the mountains for 30 hours, and what do you guys think? And they're gonna be like, what? How many weeks? But it's okay, I'm thinking about that. And this is what I wanna do next summer. And how can we include this? And how can we all work on this together, and these are the values, again, the boundaries I'm gonna create myself for myself, the lane I'm gonna stay in and I'm not gonna compromise and cross over when push comes to shove. 'Cause I talked to you guys here on January 6th or January 20th and I said, all right, I come, I'm not gonna miss a soccer game. I'm not gonna turn down those projects to work just because I wanna do, I'm gonna do it despite that and it's back to maximizing the limited training time we have, staying with who we want to be and that's the challenge. We come from a professional athlete background. But for all those people who have a job who have a family, a soccer game, who have church, who have community, it's like, well, come on, Chris, how am I gonna fit this in? Well, that's what makes you special. That's what makes this endeavor so amazing, is that despite at all, you found those 45 minutes a day. And you might say 40 minutes a day, that's not enough to do this stuff. Well guess what? 45 minutes a day for many months, it'll get you pretty close to doing what you can. It might not be to the best of your potential. You might think you can run Boston in 345 or 245, and you might only do 415. But guess what? You didn't compromise your values along the way, your family's there cheering on supporting you. And they actually like that was amazing. Let's do it again and try for 345 versus, that 345 attempt was awful. So maybe potential then is not an isolated thing that has only to do with your actual body and genes, potential is seeing yourself as a whole person and seeing where you can go given all that you have chosen in your life, or that has been put on you in your life, like your circumstances that you can't choose and that you might not have chosen. And so maybe when we think about potential, let me get back to what if you don't believe in yourself, it's like, well, there's no problem with believing in yourself if you understand who you are and where you come from and what your values are and that you chasing that time goal comes with a lot of choices that you've made. And that's probably the more appropriate way to look at potential then, right. Instead of just like a human creek. Yeah, it is an energy. It is all those things that you just said combined with curiosity and joy and just, it's a life force because it constantly keeps us going forward in belief. I wanna switch gears a little bit. Chris, you mentioned earlier the idea of athletes being frustrated during that period of time off and really wanting to get back into their routine. So let's talk a little bit about routine versus ritual. I love this one.
Yeah? Well, it's just, again, it's adding that human element to what you're doing. Routine means something that you have to do it, you're supposed to do it. You said you would do it. But adding a human element of meaning and purpose and emotion to it, turns it into what I would call a ritual. Adding that human element to it so that it means something to you so that you're not just showing up, you're showing up with intention and with care again, like an artist, doesn't just show up, They do things out of ritual because they have an emotion and a human aspect attached to it. Yeah. The idea of routine kind of implies showing up without intention. Like, well, this is my thing, I just do this thing without really thinking about it. I'm checking the box. And ritual, there's like something sacred about that. Like there's something just beautiful and like reverential about it. Like your relationship to the thing has meaning. And there's a depth to it. And I love how, like, kind of like, just outside of this is that whole idea like I know you have a whole thing about showing up. Like this time here, everyone's like, it's all about showing up. Just like, just keep showing up. Just keep showing up. Chris's like shaking his head over there. This makes my head exploded. Why is he so upset? Because it just, to me showing up is disrespecting everything. How?
It's disrespecting yourself because you're putting your limited training time to this by just showing up, it adds all the other stressors to it that you, usually, when you show up, you also are thinking, well, I should probably be at my work right now, or I probably should be doing this right now. But you know what-
Like it's the bear minimum. Here I am, the bare minimum, there's no value in the bare minimum. And so this showing up, you have an opportunity, again, it's a choice. We choose to go there. And so instead of just showing up, the choice process says to me, let me then do it with intention. Let me have an outcome I want to achieve. Versus getting there and figuring it out. I believe motivation runs out very quickly when you just do things by showing up, because there's only so many times you can show up at the track or on a bike or swimming, or in the gym and go, what should I do today? That's showing up. Hey, I went to the gym. What'd you do? I did a little StairMaster. I did a little this, or whatever that escalator is that keeps going forever. I got a sweat going. Well in four weeks from now, you're still gonna be saying, oh, I don't know if I'm getting better. Whereas intention and clarity on why you're showing up and how it means something to you with some depth and character. It means I'm putting myself out there, and I wanna know how much I improved by this time. And how am I gonna improve by this time, I'm going to take these steps. Commitment.
Yeah. And well, first of all, the word ritual, it sounds like Rich Roll.
Yeah I know. It's like, what we really want is Rich Roll. We don't want routine-
Routine verses Rich Roll. We want Rich Roll. 'Cause I feel like people are like, well, how do you make it from a routine to a ritual, to a ritual, and I keep thinking about like rock climbing, which I don't do often and I really wanna try more of like indoor rock climbing. There are different rocks that you grab and they all look different and you have to assess the rock you're about to grab in a different way than the one that you're leaving from before. And I feel like rather than thinking about ourselves as like climbing up a ladder where it's like, you can kind of do that with your eyes closed. You just like get to the next ladder rung, the rock climbing requires a little bit of a shift between activities. And so perhaps in our lives, we can turn it into a ritual if we take a moment between activities and think about what we want out of the next one. And I try to do that, like when I'm going from practice to home life, for example, 'cause what if practice didn't go great. I don't wanna bring that home and just be whatever in my home. But why not? You're capturing. So ritual and-
Am I messing up? No, no, you're not messing up. This is a good, it's because you care and you coming home to your home life and showing that I care, you know what I didn't do well today, I had an awful day at work. I got yelled at, or I totally messed up this project or I had a terrible workout today. It shows your family, your loved ones, your friends, that you care that you're not going through the motions routine, but that you care. There's emotion, there's depth along with that. If I pass a teepee and there's a ceremony going on in there and it doesn't mean anything to me, it's just a teepee with some smoke coming out of it. But knowing that there's a ritual going on there, that's something I'm curious about this there's emotion and there's people transforming, growth and there's love and care and all that in their ,that's depth. And so I want you to show that care to others and show people that yeah, you know what, it's my endeavor, but it means something to me. And that's why I show up with intention , because I care, it means something to me. Even just your ability. Once again, I keep talking about maximizing the limit limited training time, because most of us don't have time. Well, we went pro in something other than what we're endeavoring. And so even just the mental framing of how you wanna go through this workout. It allows you to learn so much quicker, so much faster because you have an image on how you wanna execute this workout, what you wanna achieve. And then when you're in the motions of doing it and you're not achieving it, your learning speeds up dramatically while you're doing it because you're not meeting your own avatar on how you thought it will go. What am I missing? What are my blind spots? What do I need to adjust? Swimming, your stroke, you're making subtle adjustments and so forth, running same thing, stride, body posture. And how am I landing? Because again, you framed it with an outcome and how I wanna feel and what this means to me. It all is so deep where that all is coming from. I wanna throw the chips on the table and make it myself vulnerable and saying, yeah I have this outcome I wanna achieve, it means something to me. Why it means something to you, different story could be whether it's validation, whether it's a part of your deeper purpose, whether it's bad, doesn't matter. But I care, I want everybody to know I care. What if you encounter people who have different values than you? Can you still be friends with them? (Chris laughs) You're laughing at me but sometimes it's really hard. 'Cause you could spend time with someone, I have friends who, I can't not be around them 'cause I never know what they're gonna say or do and their values are completely different than mine. And we often butt heads because what I would choose for us to do is totally different than what they would choose. And often we'll be at odds with what we should be doing. And I love this person, these people as friends. And I'm just trying to figure all that out because our values are really different. And I don't wanna not spend time with this people. But that's the beauty of life right there. You just defined what living in our society is. If we're all the same, it would be pretty boring. But the fact that people different values and different narrative and different stories and different backgrounds, that's what makes them them and makes us recognize the nuances of the beauty of human interaction. If I'm only around people that agree with me and all think the same, that would be boring. Everybody has different values than you. There's only one you and your value system might match up significantly with a bunch of people But it's not exactly the same. So if you just look at it, like nobody's values are exactly like mine, everybody's are different. And we learn about our own values from the differences in someone else's values too. So you can get clear on your own, which probably has happened, maybe. Yeah, it does, And you get so clear just by not. But it often feels like there's like a right or wrong or something. And I think part of this is like unlearning or teaching myself and everybody knowing that there's not like a right or wrong value, I guess, as long as you're not hurting anybody. And they're just different. Like for example, I think maybe I, I don't know if I told you this Rich, but one of my close friends is German and we went to college together and she said that, this was an Oregon, she was like an NCAA champion, like excellent athlete, excellent. And she was the only German person in our whole community. And she had eccentricities to her choices in the way she did things. And she said she felt completely free because everybody just assumed it was because she was German. They're like, it must be a German thing. She puts this with peanut butter, 'cause she's German, it must be German. And she said, she was basically free to have whatever values she wanted because they were like, it must be a German thing. And she said that that's actually unique all across Europe because there's so many countries that are touching each other and they interact way more than like an American might interact, like direct. There's just a lot more fluidity there. And she said there's a lot more openness there because people just assume if someone's different, it might be cultural. And here she said, what she experienced was that besides her in the United States, there was a lot of judgment on most people based on their values because they couldn't be like, they're just German. And I don't know why I brought that up in this goal setting conversation, but it felt like interesting to say. I don't know, I'm just saying we need, I'm trying to learn how to be around people with different values because I've been in these training groups for so long where everybody has same values. I think that's what it is. And now I moved to LA and everybody is a complete different person and I love it here, and I love running here and I love running with people with different values, but it has been an adjustment. Yeah. I mean, we come out of bubbles. We lived in such a compartmentalized bubble for so long. It's so wild to think about actually. I mean, for me, it's a lot further removed than you guys. But it feels so real. But I remember I can, what do you mean you don't think like that? My head- It's like that group thing too. At Florida, it's such a pack. It's like, everyone's the same and- It's so safe.
Yes, it's so safe. And then when you move on out into the world and you have this new permission or freedom to think how I wanna think and do what I wanna do, it's like you're grasping onto these routines or these things that you did all the time that were so familiar to you. And so it's like carving a new meaning into everything that you do all over again. At least that was my experience. Which is the flip side of the athlete's self that we're talking about. Like the alter ego, we live that and then all of a sudden we had to allow all these other versions of ourselves to start coming up.
And it can be overwhelming. And for all our life, we're like defined as an athlete. I'm defined as this. And now-
And those other areas are generally under developed.
Exactly. So I was listening to a podcast, I don't remember which one it was and I just posted about this too, but Lenny Kravitz said, every avenue plays into one another and it was so simple, but maybe it was the way he said it, and it was like super swanky and whatever. But I was like-
And it's Lenny Kravitz. Yeah, it's Lenny I mean, come on. But he was talking about his home that he has built. That is just beautiful and whatever. And it was so eye opening to me that everything can be connected to one like our identities can all have this meaning that can be connected to one another and they can all come together and they can all serve a purpose. Yes, you can compartmentalize them for the job that needs to get done or whatever you need to do. But we really are, like you were saying this whole person, this whole experience that all converges together, that actually, if you really pause again and look at it, the values all play into every part of your life. And they can all come into alignment. It is possible. You don't have to be so strict with that bubble and not have anything else that could possibly be joyful or that you could experience or have. I could go on about that. My kids are so tired of me saying watching that movie "Inside Out" because I love that depiction of all those little characters that play out a role. And my kids were like, no, we're not watching it again. I'm like well actually that can help us in this situation you're struggling with. (all laugh) But that's so true.
I can see it now. And they come online, but all our lives, we've been keeping those other characters, like not needed right now, not needed. You're offline, got to sleep. Just athlete and a few others that help along are online right now. But the rest of that. But yeah, they're all there at all times. And it doesn't mean you're a hot mess or anything like that. 'Cause I've had the same feelings like, oh, but I wanna do this and I wanna do this. And I have all these things it's like, but they can all work together. You can use your values for all of them at the specific time you wanna use them. Whether it's being an artist or running a business or swimming or going, doing this. It's like they can all work. And I think we we're so quick to trap ourselves when we goal set or when we wanna create some sort of exciting thing in our life to be like, well, it has to just be this one thing and I have to be so zoned in and there's nothing else that I can possibly do. And that tops us.
Have we answered anything with regards to-
No, I know that's the thing, I don't know where we're headed. I do wanna say, to kinda bring it back to the showing up thing. I think there are moments where just showing up is a fine thing. Like it sits on a spectrum. Obviously you wanna show up with all of your intentionality and to indulge that ritual with the highest level of attention and all of that. But some days if faced with the choice of like not going at all, or just showing up, like showing up, you show up, you show up you're there. Maybe it's rough and you don't wanna be there. But then within the first 15 minutes, you're warming up and then you can set that intention and you can create something productive out of it. So I think it has its place, but it's like the floor and not the ceiling. It shouldn't be the thing that we're putting all of our attention. I couldn't agree more because like, when you're, if you like are having a mental health struggle and you need to just be doing the actions that will eventually lead to the thoughts and then do the feelings, all you can expect of yourself is to show up and do the actions and suspend the thoughtfulness because your thoughts are not on your side sometimes. And I think sometimes we have to ignore our thoughts or see them as kind of a crying child in the grocery store. Like this is just the visual life always had of, you have to sometimes I think mindlessly show up to the task, but of course, like Rich, you said that the north star would be to be able to be mindful and have everything aligned, that is the north star. But if somebody is unable to really be in that euphoric, that ritual state, I think routine can be the way to ritual as well. And sometimes it has to be, we have to just start putting that foot in front of the other. I mean, infrastructure is different to me because, I call that more infrastructure, like, okay, I know on Tuesdays I have a swim. And I might not show up with the intention and all that higher purpose that I usually do, but today I just showed up. But even that back to awareness, even that moment of saying, okay, let me just reset. What do I wanna get out of this, I'm here. That already, you just gave yourself an opportunity to improve so much more and not even improve versus in a comparison aspect, but you're gonna feel better about yourself and about your growth and about your potential, because you recognize that moment, and you said, you know what, I'm here. Okay. Without looking at all the equipment, or I'll thinking about who's at the workout today, or who's at the pool and I'm gonna have to swim against it's about all right, what do I wanna get out of today? And then going all right. And that joy, that dopamine hit of completely successfully having done that is so powerful because it opens up the mind and creativity for the rest of the workout for you to overachieve on what you had shown up with in the first place and that creates the momentum into the new year. You're basically just asking yourself to try your best, not be the best.
Correct. Sometimes all we can do is just show up and try our best. And maybe it's giving 100% of like a not completely present person, but you're still trying your best. But I also tie that into, and I agree with you, but I also tie that into, and I don't know if we talked about this last time, that there's times when you just can't even make it to the pool or the gym or so forth, that you forgive yourself and say, okay, now I'm stuck at work, but you know what? I'm not just gonna stand here and go through the motions. I'm stuck here at where I'm gonna give it, do my best here because if I can't go swim or if I can't go run, or if I can go to the gym, I might as well make this work. So that I'm fully present in this intentionality of executing what I'm currently doing present in the moment. So that again, I get that satisfaction of, okay, I didn't get to do what I wanted to do, but I made it count instead. That's an important one. I know that I find myself, like if I'm in a work thing and I'm I should be working out, or if I'm working out, I'm like, I should be at work right now. Wherever I am and I'm thinking about- How was your swim today. Thinking about like the other place that I'm judging myself against, not measuring up in some other bucket while I'm doing, rather than being fully present for the thing that I'm doing. Totally. I think that begins to dissolve when we do see ourselves as like, not the octopus, but as like, everything is in the same value direction. Where like, at that moment, even if your value is to like stay fit and you're at work, you know that you had committed prior to being someone who works and tries to work out. And right now you're working more than you anticipated, but it's like, it is still you doing it. And I think to your question earlier about like, how do you negotiate the future self at the present self? I think we should always, or should, out of my vocabulary, we might always consider doing something now that our later self will know why this all happened. So if we have an injury and we can't go to a particular competition, or if we are at work and we can't work out, to make the most of that situation, like you said, and therefore our later self will know why that whole hurdle happened in the first place. Basically, our mindset is that we will always win. Or that's how I think about, it is like, I will always win this. And I know that's maybe not the right word to use, but always figure out a way why this happened. I call it forgiving. For me, that's what-
I'm like winning and you're like forgiving. Because forgiving takes the judgment out of it and to me, judgment is ego and ego is just self-interest, It's like this annoying voice. It's one of the people in the "Inside Out" movie that just wants to bicker and throw in like this ego component with judgment. And it's like, there's no reason for it. It's fine, life gets in the way. That's why working out or training or a beautiful long run, you have like these all inspiring moments where all this positive energy flowing through you. Why? Because you know what it could be like when you missed it. And if you didn't miss it, it would just be routine again, running every day. But because you have those highs and lows, because there's days, you're a one or not a one hopefully, but like a two or three and then there's other days you're a seven or eight or even a nine, that fluctuation that's where it's like, okay, this is fun because they understand what a two is. And maybe then we need to think about these unexpected life getting in the way things like the weather. You wouldn't get mad, like really deeply personally, if it just started snowing and you couldn't do your workout or whatever. So maybe we need to think about them less personally and a little bit more like natural. But we feel like we have some level of control over those things. And so when we don't exercise that control effectively, then it leads to that self judgment. But I think that the, you said something a minute ago, Alexi, that I think is really great, which is this idea of the present self being in a negotiation with the future self. And that's really all this is. If you think of it, we're constantly negotiating with our future self. So it's not about like, am I moving towards my goal? It's well, what does the negotiation look like today? Like maybe my future self has a little bit of a stronger position today and on other days things tip towards the present self being in a place of manipulating the future self. I think that's a really cool way of looking at it. And that tension of back and forth it's potential. Because that present self knows it can get in some way, like you say, deep down inside, it knows in some way it can get to the future self. It's just that that path might be bumpy. Do you think that that's why we take so many pictures, because we want like our future self to be like, see like it, this is why we did it. Is that why we take pictures.
It is in many way.
Is that why we keep taking many pictures? I mean hey that's what they do. They negotiate you're thinking about the future. But that also brings up a good point- I think so.
That we talk about for new years is that it's also important in that exercise to look back, to see where you came from this year and how you grew, because it does give you, when you sort of have a fixed mindset, sort of more like, you know what? I did accomplish a lot this last year. And although it is a pandemic, and although all these things and all the no's I didn't, or I can't, once again, you go through that as your sort of working through, well, what will next year bring? We don't have control over that or answers to that, but we can sort of see, well, all those things happened last year. Well, let me dream, let me hope. Let me potential forward. And when we do look back, we have to know that that person who made those decisions at that time was trying their best. Acceptance like that. We have to adore our past selves, not resent our past selves because I think we are all try harders. If we're sitting here at this table are listening, we're probably people want to try our best, I think. And so when we look back, I think we had to have the kindness to know that that person is different than me and she or he are who they are trying their best and that's important. Same as you want your future self to forgive you for, or be gentle with you r to that present self. That present self was once your future self for your past self. I mean, it's all. (Rich imitates a bomb explosion) Mind blown. All right. Well, we gotta, we gotta land this plane, but let's, let's bring it back to, a way of like really crystallizing this process. I mean, Chris, you talk about starting with the north star, which is this idea of the why, and built into that is this inquiry around your values in this person that you wanna become, that with clarity there, then you attune to the plan. Like what is the process like the tactics and the strategies and the day to day or not the day-to-day. Like just the overall structure of the whole thing. And then you show up in the moment with intention when you approach those daily actions. Yeah. I see purpose and deeper why, and you know that north star as far out there, and you're looking over landscape and terrain, on how to get there. That's the clarity, that's the plan. That's sort of the map to get you to polygraphy and that sort of has the workouts, all the things along the way, whether it's in a career path or it's in a athletic path or in a personal path, sort of how to get there, it's not a rigid line. It can't be a rigid line because then there's failures along the way, which is why I don't use goals. Because if you miss them, it's not black and white. It's a, like you're heading in the right direction. And then the baby steps in that direction, our intentions on how I show up every day. And ever so gently, I am moving towards that way off north star. Now the big important, so part of what I say with that, is that once you set your purpose and deeper why and north star that energy that you feel, like I have, I'm capable of that because that's why I wrote it down. That's why I went through the process. That's why I have this excitement around it. That's potential. That is that energy of potential. And that creates that path for you because now you're excited to figure out, hopefully excited to figure out how to get there. Start heading down that path towards that north star. And then it trickles into daily intentions. Beautiful, man. Caroline broke out the whiteboard so I don't know what's happening with her. It's gonna be so wild. What'd you got going over there? This has potential. She's got that good teacher handwriting that you can barely read, you know what I mean? Before the star. Those are goals and objectives along the way to validate that you're on the path towards your north star. And that's the important thing too, to not overlook that you can't shift the goalposts on those objectives and goals. I'm not a good visual.
Could you translate all the words though. She's holding it up to the camera. So what's this one. That's the why. (indistinct) And potential is the intentions as you're heading towards those goals. Because the potential-
And then the north star. Returns back in the plan. The north stars in the- The north stars in the Southeast corner. (all laugh) Like we do things back around here. Yeah, it's great. But a lot of people shift the goalposts once they're on a path and that's the other thing too that brings in that judgment piece where it's like, well, now that I'm going that well, now I wanna achieve this. You have to celebrate the wins along the way in order to see how you're actualizing that sort of clear path. Because I find this all the time, that once athletes, once people start moving along the path towards your goals, they're like, whoa, well, now that I'm doing this, I should be able to achieve this. They're shifting the goalposts. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, wait, let's first that one really effectively let's get that win. And then let's take that downtime after, breathe, exhale, recalibrate, look at our values because my values sure have changed over the last few years, over the last decades. And then look at the next goalpost that you were considering, but is that still there posts win, post insights, post learning and value of life. So instead of rest and relaxation, which is also important, we have relishing and recovering in between these big peaks and the relishing sounds like something in your experience and I think in all of ours that you have to build in as like a conscious thing.
Or sure. We're not just gonna give ourselves those little joys. I think that's part of also not being reactive in your goal setting. I know Chris doesn't like that word, but in whatever intentions you're setting for yourself, because with the accomplishment or progress or growth that has occurred, that's gonna affect your values, it's gonna affect where you wanna invest that energy. And I think you need to pause to really ponder that and figure out how to then use that elevated self in the best way. So an example would be my goal was to qualify for the Kona Ironman. So you, you do that, you're there and you have a good race. And if you don't pause and reflect upon how perhaps you have grown and changed as a result of that journey, you might just set the goal of like, well, I'm gonna come back next year and be five minutes faster and five minutes faster. And you'll spend the next 10 years just getting incrementally faster that triathlon when maybe this new person who sees potential differently and has a sense of agency that maybe they didn't have before could invest that in something else in their life that needs development or might excite them, that has nothing to do with the goal that they have just achieved. Well, and with endurance athletes, there's a compulsion to like sign up for the next race, like before we've even run one. Or raced one or whatever type of endurance you're doing. And I think that was something that I had to stop myself because when I knew I wasn't race racing, New York hard, I was like, sign me up for Boston. I need a narrative for myself in the world about what's happening next. And that has been my emo for so many years 'cause we're so used to these, just putting it out there. And I think what you're saying is, before you sign up for the next goal, recalibrate or check in on these values to see is that the appropriate goal, which brings us full circle to what you said in the beginning, that if we don't do that, we might chase the wrong goal. And also, I mean, important areas, what you were saying, check in, but that's where I would also like, and I always encourage my athletes well check in with your family. How'd you do? How was that journey with them? Because you need them and their support to continue this endurance endeavor big time. It just doesn't work without them being a part of it, or at least being heard or knowing that, you know what, I didn't burn any bridges. signing up for the next event without checking in with them. It turns it into, why is a dad doing 10 hours of yard work? He must've signed up another race. And so those are things that are important with that. Like how did I do on my let's say athlete mission statement up until now, did I stick to the values and the things that were important to me? Did I compromise anything? And how can I do this better next time while still enjoying myself and achieving these amazing outcomes that I was looking for. All right, guys. To the new year. Cheers. Final thoughts wrap up. I think this is an important conversation 'cause I personally think a lot of people don't know where to start with it. So hopefully we can have addressed some questions if any, and there's no perfect way, I think is what I took from this. There no one size fits all everyone has a different way of setting goals. I had like a little epiphany recently about goal chasing that I will share, 'cause I think it would've been nice to know 10 years ago or something, which is that I feel like we can fixate, look, we've been through this. You could fixate on the goal itself and it's hard to be told, enjoy the journey. Those platitudes never spoke to me. Like if anyone said anything that I felt was a platitude, I was like, eh, whatever. But I was recently I'll admit it. I auditioned for SNL and I in the process, it was a goal of mine ever since I was young because I loved that stuff. And I had the most fun I've ever had in my life putting together my audition. You know I did that. And I would go to bed every night, really so happy and then so sad because I wanted it to last forever. Like I wanted to get it so that I could do that forever. And I was sad that I might not be able to do something that made me so happy forever. And I had this epiphany then where I was like, wait a minute, whether I get the goal or not, the goal that it was not up to me, it's not up to me. Sometimes these goals are not up to us. The steps that I'm taking along the way are the same. Like I was pursuing it with integrity. I was trying my best. I was in it as if the same, if get it or not. And I realized that when we're chasing a dream, if we are pursuing it fully committed or ritualizing it, all the words, you are in the dream while you are chasing it. And I think so often we think that we are only getting the dream once we actually get it. But most of the time is that lead up and we should allow ourselves to really enjoy the process. And again, if someone said enjoy the journey, I would have been like, it means nothing to me. But once I realized that every day I was showing up to put that audition together and I didn't get it, I might keep trying some people don't get it the first time, but it doesn't matter because I was so happy in that process of fully committing and doing it. And I wanna pursue my goals moving forward like that instead of the person who's obsessing over only the result. And so I hope that helps anyone who like, felt similarly skeptical about that thing. There's that quote of, it's not a question of the outcome of the goal, it's who you become in the process of giving it all you have in order to get the goal. So that's sort of a way of saying it's about the journey, which you also sort of said. Yeah, you're definitely saying that. Yeah, no, I am saying it, but I'm saying if you don't resonate with one platitude, like some people, if it doesn't resonate with you, it might never resonate in those words, like maybe you heard it from the wrong person, like your second grade teacher and you didn't like that person. But if you try and find other ways into, these platitudes are real and they have meaning, but sometimes those words are a blur 'cause you've heard them from the wrong people. You've heard them too many times, you've seen them on Instagram. There's always another way to look at a platitude that hopefully makes it true for you. So it's okay if one doesn't resonate with you, we can find another way in. So yeah, I get it. I believe in it enjoy the journey, but I needed to like learn it in a different way I think. Or just visualize it too. No words needed. At least that's my, I mean, I agree different ways. You know, for me, it's what I've been saying. It's who do you wanna be and I think it's a daily exercise, it's a monthly exercise. It's a yearly exercise that you can go short-term long-term because it's just a constant reminder of what my actions are in this current moment. Who do I want to be? Who do I wanna be when I walk out that door today? Who do I wanna be when I show up at this workout today? Who do I wanna be in April when spring happens? Who do I wanna be this summer for these events I signed up for? Who do I wanna be in for my kids? Who do I wan to be? And be with a capital BE which you guys saw me write you guys about. Because being is acting, it's an action, being. And so that's sort of, you're constantly thinking, this is what I believe in and I do and I try to every day, is who do I wanna be? Who did I wanna be coming to talk to you today? And although it's constantly that awareness of reflecting for a moment of what do I wanna do now? And I believe that so many things can be answered for anybody If they take a moment and ask, who do I wanna be when I do this presentation, when I take this action, when I come home from work tonight, when I go to the gym today. I now understand the difference between asking yourself, who am I and who do I wanna be? And I didn't get it until just now. Which is the who do I wanna be gives yourself the generosity of believing there is potential there, whereas who am I can be a really hard question. It's a dense one. That's nice. That's really nice. And it's stagnant. It's stagnant but it's also a, and I've said this many times before, it's an illusion in its stagnancy because the truth is we're always moving closer or further away from that person we aspire to be, every action that we take is a function of, moving us along that spectrum. So when you think of it in those terms, instead of this is who I am and I'm stuck here and I'll always be this person, understand that you're always in flux. And so I think that helps like liberate you into this idea of freewill around these things and allows a little bit of space for that notion of potential to creep in. Cocoon to boom. Butterfly. So for all the people that tuned in thinking we're gonna say, here's how you set your goal and here's how you put it on- We're sorry. Make sure you sign up for a race the day I finished that race. (all laugh) Sorry to all you people but there are plenty of other podcasts out there that will explain all of that, which you probably already all know already and that doesn't need to be affirmed. So hopefully we had albeit a very esoteric conversation. One that will maybe help you think a little bit more deeply about these things that we all tend to ruminate on at the beginning of the year. Yeah.
I love it. All right you guys, how do you feel? This was fun. You feel like you're gonna sign up for a race? No. (Chris and Rich laughing) No, actually.
That's the thing, right? (all laugh) No, I decided literally-
I'm actually just great as I am right now. I'm not signing up for one, like a major, major one until I'm ready to run. Like I'm doing like the speed project, but that doesn't feel like a major marathon, but I'm gonna wait till things come to me. I'm on the self curated adventures path. I like that a lot. The rim, the rim.
Oh you're doing those ones? Yeah.
I wanna do that stuff. When is that? It's whenever.
But I mean, are you doing it on the spring? We're probably gonna do it in the winter in February. 'Cause it's cold. Oh dang. Wait who is we? My better half and I. You're gonna do it together, with support? No.
Oh, wow. You didn't want us to come? I was just gonna say let's do it together. Second honeymoon.
We're going fully zen. We'll do our own.
We'll do our own, it's fine. We'll see you out there. Do you think that you'll do any- Wave at you from- I'm working on an idea or two. Okay.
Yeah, we'll see. Well, we're always done- You gotta be careful on this podcasts. When you say something. I've heard enough. Well, to be continued, this edition of Coaches' Corner. Wait you we're still recording. Yeah we're recording, we're still going. Keep that part. (all laugh) Oh no, I love it. Why doesn't everybody sign off with where they want people to, if people wanna find out more about you, where should they go? My Instagram is Alexi Pappas, A-L-E-X-I P-A-P-P-A-S like potatoes in Spanish with an extra P. Oh wow.
There you go. That's a good one. I don't have as exciting of a description, but Caro Burckle. C-A-R-O B-U-R-C-K-L-E is my Instagram. Do I use Instagram, I do You do. People should go to your website. I'm sure there's a bunch of people here are gonna want you to coach them A-I-M-P coaching.com, which stands for, I don't know. I just do a post- (indistinct) It was Advanced Ironman Preparation or something like that. Can you redefine it now, you need to change it. You need to rename it.
I did, I did. It's Advancing Mindset and Performance. Advancing the Integration of Mindset on Performance. Let's go.
There you go. So you didn't even have to change the acronym or anything. You guys caught me off guard 'cause I was just thinking, as I was saying, you're staring at, because I said, I don't do Instagram. And it's like these eyes. I'm like, well, what is my Instagram? I think it's like AIMP Coach. Do you tweet?
No I don't tweet. We're officially off the rails so this is ending now. And now I'm a movie star. I'm always gonna be like singing on this thing. You know what I mean? (gentle upbeat music)
