Facilitator (Bala): Two years ago we were in
a conversation with Sadhguru, and I asked him, "We all know that anesthesia works but we
really don't know how it works and can you shed some light on it?" And he talked to me
briefly and then he said a statement which is, "Anesthesia…" – correct me if I'm wrong
Sadhguru, because sometimes I may be wrong, if I'm quoting you specifically – "Anesthesia
cannot touch consciousness, it can only take away memory." I was blown away by that answer because
that's not the way we think consciousness of, and maybe I thought… several days I've
had sleepless nights thinking about, maybe it's time for us to redefine the term
consciousness itself. And having gone through several programs with him, I think I'd
some glimpses here and there to know that there is much more than what we know
of. That's how this started, and so Emery, you are the one who's been doing a lot of work in
this area, so you can probably start off telling me what we know now of how anesthesia
actually causes loss of consciousness. Emery N. Brown: Okay, so I'll start. And
so again it's a… it's a pleasure to share the stage with Sadhguru and with Nichol. So,
you know how does anesthesia work… Actually how many people here had anesthesia
(Participants gesture) (Laughter)? Sadhguru: Oh! Emery N. Brown: Great topic
right, yeah, right, right. Sadhguru: Lot of clients out there (Laughs). Emery N. Brown: Exactly, right, all
right, all right, fantastic (Laughs)! So, what happened to you? You know, some people
say we turn the brain off or we… you know, we make you unconscious, we put you in a coma,
but I think though… So, we've tried to really understand what's happened, and we've done
this by doing a number of studies in humans as well as in animals. So, I'll just give you the
quick back-of-the-envelope way to think about it. When you take the anesthesia drugs, or when
they're given to you by the anesthesiologists, the brain isn't turned off. You know, it's
not like all of a sudden the switch flips. If you look at what happens to the
brain, it's actually on a highly, highly dynamic state. The actual circuits in the
brain are oscillating, they're creating waves, and to give you some sense of this, if you look
at my hands like this (Gestures) and they're oscillating now, this is the way your brain is in
a normal state of – forgive me – consciousness, right (Laughter), all right? As I understand in
my little, limited way, all right, all right? But then what happens is, the drugs take over
the circuits (Gestures) and now the circuits oscillate like this and as long as you keep the
drugs, they are there doing that (Gestures). Now what does that mean (Gestures)? It means
that if this brain area was communicating with that brain area so that you could be conscious,
it can no longer do that. When you turn the drugs off (Gestures), the brain returns… as long as you
keep the drugs on it, it does this (Gestures), it creates these oscillations. It's very much
like this YouTube video, which I'm sure some of you've seen, where you have a bridge in Tacoma,
Washington – I don't know if you've seen this, the bridge in Tacoma, Washington, and all of a
sudden it starts to oscillate in a perfect sine wave (Gestures) just like this (Gestures) and
no traffic can go across the bridge. It's the same thing that happens under anesthesia. And what
happens is that these oscillations, because they are so strong, they take over the brain, they're
not natural. And you know one… one of the things that Bala mentioned was that after anesthesia
our brains often don't work the way they did beforehand. So, now you can see if you've been
in a state like this (Gestures) for four hours, six hours, eight hours and… you know, look, I
got my ARP card about twelve years ago myself, so, I'm in that category too, right (Laughter)?
You know, you can understand why your brain may not work, all right? So, and basically that's it,
and what's good about that, what's good about what I'm telling you is that we as anesthesiologists
can see this state. We can see it on the EEG of patients in the operating room, and we can
use it to change the way we deliver our drugs, that's the practical… the practical implication
of this. And then the other practical implication of it is that, as we take anesthesia seriously –
in other words, don't say, "Oh, we just give you drugs and you go away and you come back" – as we
take it seriously and study it, then we can start interacting with our neurology colleagues and make
links between problems that they're working on. We can actually begin to have conversations
with, you know, distinguished individuals like… like Sadhguru who can help us understand what
is it we're actually doing on a deeper level. But we haven't taken what we do seriously, in
terms of how… what's happening in the brain, we're not in that position, and that's why I'd
like to think that we're trying to move the you know, the research now to… in other words, use
anesthesia… the study of anesthesia to help us connect with some of these deeper ideas about
the brain, the mind and also the consciousness. Facilitator (Bala): Emery, do
you have any thoughts on that? Emery N. Brown: What we work on as neurologists or
what I work on is very related and very connected, in that we're trying to understand how
patients who lose consciousness because they've had a structural brain injury or a
cardiac arrest or some other kind of problem, can re-establish the process of a conscious
state in a brain that's been injured, and what are the rules of the recovery,
and what are the ways in which it can happen and what are the limitations, and
how do people get stuck along the way, and could we help them. And it turns out
that there is a lot of, you know, variation. Facilitator (Bala): Sadhguru. Sadhguru: Oh. Namaskaram. Dr. Brown and Dr.
Schiff, highly accomplished doctors in their areas of proficiency, but I'm completely unschooled
(Laughs). So… because for me, the only way I know anything I know is from my own experience. So, my
language and my expression could be a bit abrasive or if it seems abrasive, please pardon me, because
I'm nearly illiterate, okay (Laughs)? So this… first of all, the nature of the language that
we are speaking – I'm talking about the English language – this language is very good for
describing and defining external things, but is very limited when it comes to internal
dimensions of many aspects of who we are. So, if we have to use yogic terminology for this,
what you are referring to as consciousness is considered as jagruti – that means wakefulness.
We do not consider wakefulness as consciousness. Wakefulness is the state of the body. Wakefulness
is the state of the mind. Wakefulness is the state of the bio-energies within us, but that's not
consciousness. What you are seeing as physical body… Well, one thing I would like to clarify
is – we do not look as (at?) brain as a very significant aspect, because we see intelligence
is right across the system. Generally, in most people's understanding I believe, a combination
of memory and intelligence is considered as mind. Am I right on this? If you take this as a
definition, it is a fact that every cell in our body carries millions-of-fold much more memory
than the entire brain can carry. Because these cells in the body remember even what happened
a million years ago. It remembers the skin tone of your forefathers from a million years,
nothing has changed. It never gets confused. So what you can carry in the brain as conscious
memory compared to what every cell or every DNA is carrying is phenomenally more, and the
chemical dimension of what is being conducted in every cell is far more complex than you
could ever figure with your entire brain. So, both in terms of intelligence and memory, the
spread is much more. I think this entire focus on brain has come mainly because somewhere,
probably pre-renaissance time we broke into this because that region ja… largely we're
talking about Europe, where it was hugely dominated by very dogmatic belief systems. When
people broke through that, nobody was supposed to think for themselves – everything was already
said and done. When people broke through that and started thinking for themselves, thinking little
freely looked like absolute liberation for those people. And I think that hangover still lasts in
our education systems, in our medical sciences, in the very way we are approaching even
fundamental sciences, that hangover, that thought is everything, is very profoundly influencing
our social structure and our way of exploration. In (Laughs)… In the yogic sciences, we don't
attach any significance to your thought. Whatever you are thinking, it's of no consequence
to me. This is why I… whatever somebody is saying, we don't listen to them (Laughter/Applause),
we… we just feel them. We just feel them – what is their chemistry, what is their…
how they are right now. I don't care what they are saying. This is how (Laughs)…
maybe it's an evolutionary problem with me, because I've been in jungles by myself and I have
seen, most creatures judge you just like this. I've (Laughs)… You know, I think they showed
a picture of me handling a king cobra, I've been very closely involved with all kinds of
creatures, particularly cobras and things – their sense of our chemistry is so keen. You can just go
in the wild and just pick up a cobra. As you saw, I'm not holding him by his head. He is not a pet
cobra, he is a king cobra (Few laugh). If he bites you, he won't give you more than twenty to forty
minutes before you are done. But I'm just picking him up like this (Gestures), he will do nothing,
because he is feeling my chemistry. If I show little agitation, he'll go for me (Laughter).
If… If I am just okay, he's fine with me. So we don't attach any significance to thought,
because thought is recycling of the data that we have already gathered. No thought can come
which is absolutely fresh – permutations and combinations of the data that we already
have. Right now, lot of people coming up to me, very fearfully and saying, "Sadhguru, this
artificial intelligence is coming. If they come, they will take over the world." I said, "If
they take over and run the damn thing, you're on a holiday, isn't it?" (Laughter/Applause).
But it is a fact that everything that we can gather as information, analyze and express
and use it in many ways, all these things, machines will be doing it better than us
in the next ten to fifteen years' time. Everything that is data-based processing,
machines will do way better than us. So there is this fear. I think it's a very
good time, this is the time we need to explore an intelligence beyond intellect. Because we
have become so intellectual, we have become so brain-oriented in our approach to everything. As
you rightly said, nothing is really turned off, we've just broken the communication. After all,
the purpose is to go through something which is generally extremely painful without pain – that
is how the entire anesthetic science has come up. So, you're just breaking the communication
and that's not happening. It serves that purpose. So being wakeful and being
conscious are two different things. If we… (Talks Aside: Is it okay if I take a
few minutes?). This is described like this. For wakefulness, we have a word called
jagruti. Jagruti means you are awake. If ten people – let's say we take sample of ten
people – they all fell asleep – don't do it, okay (Few laugh) – they all fell asleep
and they came awake. When they come awake, all of them will not be equally awake.
One person may be instantly awake, another person may two… took…. take two minutes
– as you have noticed with anesthesia also. Emery N. Brown: For sure. Sadhguru: Another person will take an hour to
wake up. Another person needs a strong coffee, otherwise she won't wake up (Laughter). Am I
right (Laughter)? Like this. Different levels of wakefulness is also there. Professors
must have noticed (Gestures) (Laughter). Emery N. Brown: Yes (Laughter). Nicholas D. Schiff: In fact the first
few minutes of the day can be like that. Sadhguru: Different levels of wake… wakefulness
in a classroom (Laughs). So this is jagruti. So we are calling wakefulness as consciousness
– no. The next dimension of consciousness is called swapna. This means a dream state. A
dream state is far more vivid than wakeful state for most human beings. It's like
going to a cinema. If you go to a cinema, the key factor of the impact of the cinema on you,
is turning off the lights. This is something most people don't understand (Laughs). If you don't
turn off the lights, cinema will be no good. It doesn't matter how well it's made. Turn on the
lights and watch the cinema, you will see a great cinema becomes nothing. So turning off the lights
is important. So turning off the lights in our experience is the eyelids. You down the shutters,
the world is off. Now you start your own world. So, dream state is like a cinema. It's far more
impactful. People love their cinema stars more than the people that they have lived with for
twenty-five years (Laughter). But they have not even seen them. All they saw was play of light
and sound. But that is far more impactful simply because lights are off. So, eyelid is that, if
you roll it down, lights should be off, world should be closed. But right now, the problem is,
this mental faculty has not been taken charge of, so it's running wild all the time with eyes
closed. So this dream state is considered a more powerful state than jagruti. Jagruti or
wakefulness is important for performing action in the world. But for human consciousness,
in terms of profoundness of experience, dream is always more profound than walking on the
street. Yes? Most of you have experienced this. The next state is called as Sushupti.
Sushupti means it is a dreamless state, but there are dimensions of consciousness
that you are aware of. It's a totally dreamless sleep state, but you are
aware. There is no picturization, there is no video running in your mind,
there are no pictures, there are no people, there are no words, but you are conscious
in your sleep. This is a very powerful state if you really want to manifest something in
your life, this is something to be explored. And the next one is called as Turya. This is
consciousness, where there is no memory involved of any kind. Essentially in the yogic sciences,
we are looking at consciousness as an intelligence beyond memory. If there is memory, memory is
considered a boundary, in the sense – this is one person, this is another person, simply because
this embodies one kind of memory and that embodies another kind of memory. This has become one
kind of person, this has become… become another kind of person. Essentially, it is in the memory.
Memory does not mean just what I remember and you remember. Genetic memory is there, evolutionary
memory is there, elemental memory is there, atomic memory is there, karmic memory is there,
inarticulate and articulate memories are there. But generally we are thinking, memory means
consciously what we can remember. But today, if we eat dog food, we'll not become dogs.
Something within us remembers, no matter what you eat, this has to be only transformed into
a human being. It doesn't matter what you eat. If you and a cow everyday eat a mango, no merger
will happen. Perfect memory is established, evolutionary memory is absolute. So these
different dimensions of memory are playing on a daily basis. People are thinking their thoughts
are free (Laughs). It's a joke (Laughter). Because your memory is determining everything. So,
largely in one single word, we call this karma. Karma means the residual impact of all the memory
that you have. How it is impacting every thought, every emotion, every action, the very way
you sit and stand. See, if you… if you see somebody walking far away, let's say
half a mile away you see someone walking, if he is your friend, just the way they are
moving their body you say, "Oh, that's him." There are seven billion plus people. But
this particular man walks in a unique way (Laughs). All right? Just two-leg walking,
everybody walks, but still it is so unique. So, this is what we are referring to as karma,
that the residual impact of memory, varieties of memory, we rec… recognize memory as eight basic
forms of memory which are determining how you are right now. The very way you sit, stand, breathe,
understand, perceive life is determined by this memory. But there is an intelligence beyond
memory which we call as turya or chitta. This is consciousness. Now, every one of us is conscious.
The question is only of degree. Even a rock is conscious, a dog is conscious, a pig is conscious.
The question is only of degree, how conscious? Even among us, how conscious is different from
person to person. So this degree of consciousness determines everything. Now, if we have to give an
analogy, what is memory is like – I am sure every one of us at some stage in our life, I don't know
if you are still doing it, we blew soap bubbles, did you? Hello? Come on! Everybody raised their
hand for anesthesia (Laughter). Did you do soap bubbles? So when you blow a soap bubble, the soap
part of it which is very little, just a tiny drop, the large part of it is air that it captures.
So, how big a bubble? When you were children, who can blow the biggest bubble was a big
deal. And it's a certain amount of technique… Emery N. Brown: Yes. Sadhguru: …how you do it (Laughs).
Somebody blew this (Gestures) big bubble, somebody got only this (Gestures) much. So
how big a bubble – this bubble is like this, the kind of soap and how it gathers is
your memory. It forms a… It gives it a form. But when the memory bursts, there
is no such thing as your air and my air. There is no such thing as your consciousness
and my consciousness. There is something called as your body and my body. There is something
called as your memory and my memory. There is something called as your intellect and my
intellect. But there is nothing called as your consciousness and my consciousness. How
much of it did you capture, how big is your bubble will determine the scale of your life.
The scale and possibilities of your life are determined by how big a bubble did you blow.
Emery N. Brown: Okay (Laughter/Applause).
