the gospel of the Roman Catholic religion is under Divine anathema we cannot Unite with that but because of the influence of these highly visible people 640,000 evangelicals have now signed The Manhattan Declaration and if I gave you some of the names it would blow your mind people that you would think would be doctrinally sound and so what this does is it's confused the Evangelical Church they don't know whether to evangelize Roman Catholics does it represent a mission field or is it a Christian denomination made up of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ everyone is [Music] confused welcome to Pastor scholar Bridging the Gap examining how Academia and the church influence each other I am Chris Miller your moderator with me as always is founding Pastor revolve Bible Church Ryan day and of course Dr Cory Marsh author editor and professor of New Testament at Southern California Seminary joining us is Mike jenden evangelist and founder of proclaiming the Gospel an Outreach Ministry dedicated to equipping Christians to evangelize and reach Roman Catholics with Biblical truth leaving behind a successful career in corporate management Mike went on to study at Dallas Theological Seminary where he and his wife Jane were inspired to start the ministry Faithfully serving now 33 years he has preached across the globe and authored two books preparing for eternity and contending for the gospel you can access his teaching and resource materials at proclaiming theeg gospel.org as well as find links to Media broadcast and sign up for his monthly newsletter we are privileged to have him welcome Mike well it's my privilege to be here Chris thank you and the first question that must be asked and you probably get this all the time aren't Catholics Christians well it's interesting because one of the things I like to do in sharing the gospel is when I meet somebody for the first time I'll ask ask them are you a Christian whenever I ask that question to a Catholic you know what they say no I'm a Catholic and so they see a distinction between Christians and Catholics and so what is the distinction well there's quite a few but I think the major ones you enter the Catholic religion through water baptism you enter the Church of Jesus Christ through Spirit baptism we as Christians have the promise of eternal life Roman Catholics do not have eternal life they have conditional life whether or not they get to heaven depends on what they do rather than what Christ has done and so there's a lot of differences between the two Christians and Catholics but when you look at the history of Christianity you see that Jesus founded one church and that began at Pentecost you look at Roman Catholicism and most Scholars would say it began in the 4th century when Constantine the Roman Emperor he saw a fragmented Roman Empire and so he decided to make Christianity the official religion that would cement a fragmented Roman Empire and so his brand of Christianity was that if you were a pagan you could come into Constantine's church and you could bring your Pagan Traditions there was no call to repentance and so many of the Pagan Traditions that are practiced by the Roman Catholic church today had its Genesis in the 4th Century Constantine by the way was called pontificus Maximus which is the highest priest and so that's when you see the origin of Roman Catholicism as we know it today can you trace uh some say well you can trace the Catholic Church to you know Jesus Christ in the New Testament uh what do you say to that well again Jesus started one church but what most Roman Catholics don't acknowledge is apostasy we see that apostasy began in the first century 1 John 2:19 they went out from us because they were never part of us had they been part of us they would have remained with us another way John could have said that if they had been born again they would have remained with us but since they were not born of the spirit they departed from us and so you see these two streams of Christianity operating side by side for 2,000 years and so the Roman Catholic church has departed from the faith of the Apostles in fact if you look at the history book of the first century the book of Acts none of it resembles what Roman Catholicism is today you don't have priest offering sacrifices in the book of Acts you don't have um headquarters in Rome you don't have sacraments you don't have Purgatory you don't have indulgences for the remission of sins and so all these things can be traced back to the 4th century when paganism crept into the church and speaking doctrinally um what do the Catholics add to the gospel message well when you look at Galatians 1: 16-9 you see that Paul issues in a divine Ana on anybody who would pervert the gospel the judaizers came into town saying we believe in Jesus Christ we believe in his death and burial and Resurrection but if you're a gentile you not only need to believe that but you need to be circumcised so they wanted to add One requirement which ultimately was putting them under the law and so the Catholic church has gone way beyond that if you want to be saved as a Roman Catholic you have to be baptized that's the sacrament of regeneration and justification ation once you're baptized then you have to receive the sacraments they're necessary for salvation the Catholic church has also added good works you have to do good works in order to be justified they've also added the law you have to obey the law that's a requirement for Catholic salvation and we know that in Galatians 3 that put you under a curse because James says in chapter 2:10 if you keep the whole law perfectly but stumble at one part you guilty of breaking the whole law so nobody can attain eternal life by keeping the law and yet that's one of the requirements for the Catholic church and so when you look at the anathema that was placed on the judaizers for adding One requirement the Catholic church has added six additional requirements so that places every Roman Catholic pope Cardinal Bishop priest none all the clergy members are under a Divine anathema for preaching a orted gospel and a lot of people don't realize the word anathema is a Greek word that means a cursed and so Jesus Define what it is to be a cursed that you're put into the Eternal fire that was made for the devil and his angels and so we need to rescue Roman Catholics out from the system that is under a Divine anathema and what is the role of Mary in the Catholic church and why do Catholics pray to her I mean some make the distinction well we're not praying to Mary we're praying to God and and we're really just petitioning Mary and petitioning the Saints um I know I there's a lot there but um what do you have to say to that to well they've elevated Mary even though they don't call her deity they have given her a lot of the Divine attributes and that's why Catholics pray to her we know that uh in order to hear the prayers of a billion 300,000 Catholics you have to be omniscient omnipresent and so the Catholic Church recognizes Mary is mediatrix of all Grace and I actually have a quote from the catechism of the Catholic Church it says without a single sin to restrain her she became the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race and so she robs Christ of His Glory by being the cause of salvation but that's not all in paragraph 969 as mediatrix she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to to bring us the gifts of Eternal salvation so they look at her as an advocate a mediatrix of all Grace an intercessor and so again even though they haven't made her the fourth person of the Trinity they give her Divine attributes and that's why Catholics esteem her so highly and many Catholic women would rather go through her rather than Jesus because she said to be more understanding do you know roughly when that Doctrine was introduced in the church well sure 1854 was the doctrine of Mary's um Immaculate Conception which declares that Mary was conceived without sin and then they go on to say she lived a sinless life so some of the Catholics began asking questions well wait a minute if sin is what causes death and Mary never sinned where is she and so in 1950 almost a hundred years later they pronounced that Mary's body was miraculously assumed into heaven that's why she's no longer longer around it's convenient yeah so one lie led to another lie and that's how the Catholic Church operates wow um given that and and I'll open up to also you um Corey and Ry um is the Pope's word given equal weight to scripture do Catholics consider when the pope speaks that's the word of God it all depends they say that whenever he speaks EX cathedra in other words from the chair of Peter then he is making an infallible pronouncement but then if you ask Catholics do you have a list of all the infallible pronouncements they have no list and so it's uh a moving Target we've got a pope now Pope Francis that not only is anti-biblical he's also anti-roman Catholic in fact he goes against historic Roman Catholicism he's made such statements as there is no hell just last week he said I believe that hell is empty and then he says uh he believes all people will make it to Heaven even atheists as long as they are sincere so sincerity is the key for Pope Francis and so it's really a good time to witness to Catholics because they don't know where to search for truth they have a pope that is said to be infallible but he doesn't represent the Bible or Roman Catholicism accurately that's very interesting what is a I'm just thinking about it what would be a sincere atheism yeah like how do you have a sincere non-belief how's that even measured like what makes that sincere and how can you be saved by a sincere non-belief it doesn't make any sense it doesn't make any sense yeah well given that um I'm sure there's an answer to it by some from someone but just hearing that now that's just crazy to me yeah Chris if I could give a direct quote from what he said two weeks ago what I will say is not a dogma of Faith but something personal according to the report in an Italian press he said I think of hell as empty I hope it's reality so his language is often cunningly ambiguous so that it can mean different things to different folks thus creating a lot of confusion you know it's interesting as I as I hear that quote how does he differentiate between when he speaks ex cathedra and when it's just his own opinion in other words he has a theological opinion that's that's what he said in the quote this is my opinion it's not Catholic dogma um and yet he's supposed to be able to speak infallibly I wonder how he would separate that in his mind how does he determine what comes out of his mouth is his own opinion and what is actually Dogma do you know the answer to that Mike well often times popes will send up a trial balloon and they'll see whether or not the majority of the Catholics will buy into it good example was John Paul um he wanted to make Mary co-redeemer and many of the Catholic theologians said if you do that it will thwart The ecumenical movement Protestants will not buy in to Mary being a co-redeemer so uh they decided that that trial balloon should be shot down before it gets any altitude wow wow and what of this recent uh sort of a controversial move where he um he now allows a blessing for same-sex couples is that is that true yes and we think this is a precursor to him blessing same-sex marriages so again it's a trial balloon will the majority of Roman Catholics buy into to the blessing on same-sex unions and if so then they'll move a step forward to blessing samesex marriages and it's the Bishops that do that is that correct the Council of Bishops that formal that's a good point you know a lot of people know that the pope is said to be infallible when he speaks ex cathedral but a lot of people don't know that when the Bishops speak with one voice such as at a council then they are said to be infallible as well and so many of the infallible dogmas from the Council of Trent were pronounced by this group of Bishops and together with one voice they are said to be infallible can you define that term just for those who may not know what does it mean to speak ex cathedra it means from the chair of Peter in other words uh the pope um believes his successor of Peter who was the first pope and it's really interesting because uh on my website I did a contrast between Peter who Catholics believe is their first pope all of his teachings side by side with what Pope Francis teaches and it's really an amazing contrast and so we want to encourage Catholics to look to Peter and believe what he said rather than the current pope and I've heard that presentation it's excellent and one of the things that you point out is when Paul rebukes Peter in Galatians so did Peter even actually speak ex cathedra Catholics would say no but that proved that Peter was a fallible man yeah in fact even in Matthew 16:18 when Jesus asked the question who do men say that I am Peter the first to answer said you are the Christ the son of the Living God and Jesus said that wasn't revealed to you by man but by my Father in heaven and Upon This Rock I will build my church and so the Catholic Church believes that Jesus was saying Peter you're The Rock I'm going to build my church on but just a few moments later Jesus says before I build my church I must first go and die for my church so what does Peter Do Lord Lord may it never be he calls him Lord then he rebukes him and then Jesus said Peter get behind me you have the mouth of Satan so is this a man that Jesus would build his church one he said was the mouthpiece of the devil a few moments later you take out that reference of on this rock I will build my church take that out there is nothing that would ever suggest no inference at all that Peter could have been the first what they called Pope I mean I'm thinking what Mike is bringing up is so powerful so so much explanatory powerful again powerfully against Peter being the first Bishop of Rome and I'm also thinking the letter of Romans Paul makes it very clear in Romans 15 that he's not building on another man's work so the letter of Romans to the Romans from the Apostle Paul is the very first Apostolic witness they had in Rome which again would suggest it wouldn't be Peter um if we were going to make this up which apostle has the right to Rome a case could be made for Paul um because the the letter of Romans would stand in place of the Apostle so in sense represented his teaching and his personhood by them receiving that letter and he makes it very clear that it hasn't there's there's been no Foundation there before that law before that letter there's just absolutely nothing other than that what can be a cryptic reference in Matthew 18 that on this rock I will build my church which there's a good case I think might to be made that the confession that that Peter gave may have been the rock to build the the church upon um but I mean we don't want to deny that Peter didn't have a we don't want to deny Peter didn't have a um a strong uh leadership role and and influence in the early Church of course he did but to to exalt that to Pope status you know Father which is Pope in in Greek to actually make him some type of Holy Father um stands against the the witness the New Testament and you know it's really interesting since we're talking about the papacy a lot of people don't realize that the papacy has stolen the three names given to the Triune God the pope wears the title of Holy Father title given only to God the father he also wears the title head of the church the pope never died for his church Jesus did but yet he steals that title and then he steals the title Vicor of Christ Jesus said I must depart but I will send a help helper in my place he wasn't referring to the papacy but to the Holy Spirit as the Vicor of Christ what do you think Mike when you said when we started off how Catholics now make the distinction they won't refer themselves as Christians they're Catholics is that new is that modern I tend to think like before they would want to be known as Christians now they're making a clear sort of Distinction I I guess which is helpful so we don't have to make the distinction for them because you're not biblical Christians you're Roman Catholics is that something modern or have they done that for a while I think it's been since the Reformation yeah that was The Great Divide sure but they wouldn't refer to themselves as Christians but Roman Catholics right interesting uh just to go really quickly over um this is from an article that was published in 2022 by The Institute for advanced Catholic studies at the University of Southern California they examined Vatican statistics for 2020 showing that the number of Catholics worldwide increased by 16 million to now number 1.36 billion so given these stats the Catholic church has expanded more through the last 100 years than any other time in its 2,000 year existence in fact roughly 17.7% of the world's population is Catholic now of this total 48% are in the Americas 28% actually are in South America and following recent Trends the Catholic church has actually grown and this is fascinating most rapidly in Asia and Africa in fact both these continents now provide 60% of all Catholic seminarians worldwide it is even projected that by 2050 75% of Catholics will live outside the West what is contributing to this rise do you any thoughts well sure um we have to recognize that the primary growth of the Roman Catholic religion is through physical birth so when a Catholic has children they're baptized at seven days a of age and they're considered a Roman Catholic at that point the baptism is the sacrament of regeneration and the sacrament of justification so not only are they a member of the Catholic church at seven days of age but then they grow up as Roman Catholics they have children and they also become Catholic and so that's their primary method of growth and when you look at Africa um that's where the population growth is really taking place Europe is on the decline population wise and you see a de grease and the uh number of Roman Catholics in Europe and so I would say that also the missions Focus right now is on Africa and Asia I know my uncle was a priest and he spent 30 years in the jungles of rangon Burma so converting the Burmese to Roman Catholicism so yeah there's the missions and then there's also the the primary Methodist birth that's just fascinating and of this uh particularly in America is the CH Catholic Church on would you say in on the decline or just as in Europe what would you say to that I would say in in America it's pretty steady yeah it's not increasing like it is in Asia and Africa but it's holding its own in America right now there's what 65 66 million out of a population of 360 million so about one out of four Americans are Roman Catholic that's been holding steady and that's definitely the the ratio where revolved Bible churches one and four are Roman Catholics you know 25% of the population of around our local church in our city there's a basilica and so about 26% of our city is Roman Catholic yeah but Chris also referring to that USC study yes it said the gospel needs to be presented in a way which people can relate yes yes well and I don't know if Catholics realize what the word gospel means it means good news there is no good news in the Catholic Church you know what I hear that and I'm thinking that you know what it actually does make sense because the human default position seems to want to do things to please our deity and so can the people relate to just do a certain things whether it's these you know prayers or this charity given or or or receiving the the even last rights at the end doing these things to pleases God is the human default way of thinking so they can people can relate to that unfortunately what they're relating to is a false Doctrine well sure and Corey you get make a good point every religion in the world teaches a Works righteousness salvation every religion teaches you must do things to appease your deity biblical Christianity is set apart because we have an all-sufficient savior yeah therefore salvation is offered as a gift of God's grace yeah amen so one of our our social media director I'll call him that uh he he had a question for you um so he has a relative who uh they have what they're called Eucharist Miracles have you heard of these sure can you speak to those and what are they and why are Catholics so enamored of these wait a second before Mike answers before we bash on Roman Catholics for having those things I've seen quote unquote Protestants late at night on infomercial selling Miracle handkerchiefs and they're not Roman Catholics so we have our own crazies too well true all right sorry unpa sorry yeah it's it's amazing the different Eucharistic Miracles you see I mean all you have to do is go on the internet and Google them and you'll see bleeding Eucharist and you'll see fleshly Eucharist and even supposedly doctors and scientists have evaluated and found it to be true flesh but you know how do you explain all this lying signs and wonders we know that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one that he's going to deceive the world with lying signs and wonders and and um you know just as U Jesus called the apostate Jewish leaders they said your father is the devil Roman Catholicism has the same father there's only two spiritual fathers y you're either a child of God and that is through birth spiritual rebirth or you're a child of the devil those are the only two possibilities and so I believe Roman Catholicism is s 's greatest counterfeit yeah because it has this thin veneer of truth that hides a false and fatal gospel and that's why many evangelicals look at it as a valid expression of Christianity speaking going back to Catholic Doctrine can you talk a little bit about the doctrine of transubstantiation and can you define what that is and and what Catholics actually believe about communion well sure the Catholic Church teaches that the priest has the power to to call almighty God the Lord Jesus Christ back down from heaven to continue on an altar what he finished on the cross and the way they do that is through the quote unquote Miracle of transubstantiation where the Eucharist becomes the physical body and blood soul and Divinity of Christ and the priest leans over the wafer and he pronounces hocus as Mays s which by the way the M The Magicians of our day they say Hocus Pocus that's kind of a transl iteration from the Latin of what the priest is doing when he changes the Eucharist into the body and blood of Jesus but yeah and so how do we know whether or not Jesus is really represented in the Eucharist is this a valid truth that Catholics have well the Bible says that it's a false Christ and we see that uh in Hebrews 9:28 that Jesus is going to return a second time and not to deal with sin and so this transubstantiated Eucharist is not Jesus because he returns every day and he returns to deal with sin the Catholic church has a book by a Roman Catholic priest the faith of millions in it it has the official emperor moer of the Catholic church and it dares to say that the priest has the power to call almighty God down from heaven to be a victim he was never a victim he went to the Cross willingly laid down his life but yet Catholics believe that the priest has this power the priest speaks and lo Christ the omnipotent God bows his head in Humble obedience to the priest's command this is official Roman Catholic teaching so this is where transubstantiation came from and that's why it's a sin to not go to mass is because that's how you have a relationship with Jesus in Roman Catholicism when the priest calls down Christ into the Eucharist if you go to a Catholic mass you'll see them bowing before it and then the priest distributes Christ that's how they have a relationship with Christ is through the Eucharist a lot of even Catholics don't know that or so we see of people in our church all the time don't participate in a Catholic mass I tell people don't go to a Catholic baptism because they're saying that that baptism regenerates the baby we're protesters we we have to speak up about the the the Demonic deception of the Eucharist and baptism and we need to be B old about it because it's damning many thousands of billions I mean if you want to quote this number and it's it's heartbreaking because people are worshiping a cracker and a cup of juice or wine because a guy says Hocus Pocus that should break the heart of every True Believer Ryan you make a good point because to worship the Eucharist as Jesus Christ is no different from the Israelites worshiping the golden calf as the true God that delivered them out of Egypt we know that the Eucharist is a false Christ because the Bible says he's going to return after the tribulation he's going to return the same way he left in a body he's going to return to the Mount of Olives and so over and over again we see in Scripture that this cannot be the true Christ it's a false Christ he's coming to judge the living and the dead right yeah he's already died for our sins and he's seated at the right hand of the fathers you would you would think like the letter of Hebrews alone just demolishes Roman Catholic dog as it's you know canonized from Vatican things like you know Jesus being Superior Above All Things in in Hebrews um Hebrews 3 conf consider Jesus your your priest of and and and conf and worthy of your confession of your high priest you go straight to Christ that is um he died once for all I mean this idea of the mass where he continues to bleed uh I really can't see anything more Blasphemous when it comes down to it than and opposed to what the picture we get of Jes Jesus and his the finality of his work in the letter of Hebrews than what the Roman Catholic Church teaches yeah you're right Cory Hebrews 10 destroys the Roman Catholic mass because you see in verses 10 12 14 and 18 he died once for all sin for all time there are no more offerings for sin how much more clear could the writer of Hebrews make it if Catholics would only read chapter 10 and going to just sort of going to Academia a little bit and Corey maybe you like to address this um are pastors today equipped enough in seminaries to help refute the doctrines of Catholicism that's a hard question because there's a party that wants to say pastors are hardly even equipped to be able to refute any doct false Doctrine uh you know seminaries are doing their their jobs sorry not all pastors of course um I'm the jury is still out on this one across the across the table um we have Cory at our church right right right um there's got to be someone there keeping this guy accountable uh no didn't answer your question in all seriousness I think here's an interest interesting statistic and this Bears on what we what you just asked Chris is that 95% of the world's pastors are not Seminary trained think globally that means only 5% of pastors have been G have gone to Seminary and think of all the horrible teaching and preaching and false Doctrine coming from pulpits it's it's easy to blame the Seminary that maybe they just they went and got trained and became you know Progressive and liberal in their Doctrine and and denied the doctrines of the faith which happens which does happen of course um but a seminary's purpose is to come alongside the church and help equip uh teachers and preachers and missionaries and workers of of the church to be able to better serve their congregation so if you have a seminary um that is devoted to doing that and understanding its place that you know through the church the manifold wisdom of God is made known Ephesians 3 not the Seminary the Seminary is a par church ministry it should come alongside the church even submit to local church accountability then I think you have a you have some good ingredients for a seminary that's going to do what I think its purpose is to do is to equip Believers in the local church um to your question U are pastors equipped enough in seminary today to help refute Catholic Doctrine here's the thing I we have like at Southern California Seminary we have an apologetics program we have concentrated we have courses concentrated on uh uh giving uh uh presentation and refuting false Doctrine there is this fear I think too often where pastors and even everyday Christians think they need to know everything about false religions before they start proclaiming the word of God I'm a new testament Professor I'm big on you I'm biblical Theologian that's my PhD in that if you know the word of God if you know the the the Christian scriptures and the truth is there you don't have to find all the nuts and bolts and all the cracks of every false religious system because it will be contradicted against the true teaching right so I'm big on if you reading scripture becoming biblically literate knowing the the the the Holy Bible to be able to refute these things and if you do that then you should be able to just look at this conversation we mentioned biblical books Romans Hebrews uh I'm looking at uh First Timothy chapter 4 Mike and I had a conversation briefly before we started about the doctrines of demons that are there in first Timothy chapter 4 and he goes right into two what they are two of them who forbid marriage and require absence from foods that God created to be good the Roman Catholic Church still forbids marriage again for for their clergy and there are foods that are now considered to be right or holy to eat and and of course this happens within prentis too but these are demonic doctrines so as long as you know your new testament you know your biblical Canon I think that's the best way to equip pastors to be able to refute whether it's Roman Catholic dogma or other false religions just a footnote on what you said they don't just forbid marriage they call it a Sacrament so God dispenses grace uh for abstaining from Marriage that's demonic it's not just to forbid it it's that they're they're twisting uh how God actually bestows Grace upon people I I would I would piggyback on that I really appreciate the first thing came to my mind was second Timothy 4:2 preach the word I think in the in one sense pastors don't need to understand what M everything Mike gendrin understands Mike gendrin is a gift to us uh he understands a lot more of Roman Catholic dogma than I do but to refute the lies of Rome I just need to proclaim the gospel and the gospel of God will be used by the spirit of God to do the work of God in the hearts of those who hear it so in a sense are pastors equipped to deal with it yeah if they know the gospel I think the sad thing is a lot of pastors today they just aren't actually preaching the gospel and I think that's a lot of the time why we're ineffective and do you a point Ryan not to cut you off but on a seminary level the problem is just like you said a lot of pastors aren't proclaiming the gospel a lot of seminaries are not teaching Bible biblical harmonics correct interpretation they're teaching management principles and uh all these other things under the sun and so they're not being equipped in Bible to be able to refute Doctrine it's the same problem you know if if if it comes back to knowing your scriptures then then you're equipped to be able to to to see these f doctrines when they come one I maybe a follow-up question that I would have as you were talking that just came to my mind do you think ecumenicalism has something to do with maybe seminaries even conservative seminaries straying away from not hammer it does in fact if you don't mind me I was going to ask Mike this question please several decades ago you'll remember the um Chuck Coulson and others sure came together to do this um um um oh my goodness evangelicals and Catholics together right right funny I can forget that that's exactly what it is evangelicals and Catholics together and a whole movement started from that what do you think of that because that was an ecumenical attempt to bring Protestants I.E even more narrow evangelicals United with Catholics what can you speak to that it's been very successful in fact there's been subsequent Accords the most recent one was The Manhattan Declaration in 2009 and what the Roman Catholic Church does is they go after highly visible highly influential pastors and Scholars to put their name on these Accords and we've got a lot of Evangelical well-known pastors and theologians and Seminary heads that have signed The Manhattan Declaration in the first paragraph it says we are united in a common faith and the gospel that is the furthest thing from the truth the gospel of the Roman Catholic religion is under Divine anathema we cannot Unite with that but because of the influence of these highly visible people 640,000 th evangelicals have now signed The Manhattan Declaration and if I gave you some of the names it would blow your mind people that you would think would be doctrinally sound and so what this does is it's confused the Evangelical Church they don't know whether to evangelize Roman Catholics does it represent a mission field or is it a Christian denomination made up of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ everyone is confused which you know when we first began this ministry 33 years ago it was primarily to equip the body of Christ to be effective witnesses to this huge Mission field but now we're seeing equally important is to educate evangelicals that it is an apostate form of Christianity and they do need to be evangelized is it is it that evangelicals these days they don't even know the gospel yeah you know I I think for sure that make a contradiction in terms Evangelical right the Evangel don't even know their own Gospel unfortunately yeah I mean now that that's become it's very so so difficult to Define evangelicalism because of everybody that fits underneath that term but I think that's that's absolutely true the gospel is where Justice and mercy meet um The Gospel is good news because uh because we are totally depraved people that have rebelled go against God and offended God because he is Holy and God because he is Holy he must judge sin and sinners there's a aspect of the Gospel that's very very offensive earlier I think you know Mike was talking about um presenting the gospel in a way that what was the relatable relatable the cathic there's nothing relatable about the gospel because it's offensive right because before you can even understand what Jesus has done you got to come to terms with with who you are yeah right yeah so I I think I I think that that yes Chris I think that's part of it I think Roman Catholic should if they were to sit through an Evangelical service there should be a they should be offended mhm if they if they understand and believe Rome's Dogma they should not be able to sit through your sermon unoffended and if they are you've not proclaimed the biblical gospel that's good point is it is it because of this ecumenical push um going on is that why so many pastors seem to be want to shy away from discussing in their own churches the difference between biblical Christianity and Catholicism is that why they're shying away from this sure if you look at we talked about The ecumenical Unity Accords you also had promisekeepers that had a big impact on suppressing doctrinal truth so that we could all come together and sing Kumbaya and so that was a movement too to unite Catholics and evangelicals because the founder uh the former Colorado football coach he was a Roman Catholic Bill McCartney his president was a Roman Catholic and so it was a Catholic influence movement and evangelicals bought into it let's suppress doctr truth so we can have Unity together this is you know this is this is a obviously controversial issue because me and I'm just speaking for myself I can see I would appreciate I can Unite with someone who believes something differently if we know we believe something differently and we're not we're not hiding that fact we can unite over a common cause whether it's politically or some type of humanitarian Aid whatever but when we bring it together as and we share Doctrine and theology together and that's why we're doing it when there's such a clear difference between biblical Christianity you are saved by grace alone through faith Al loone and not just you know you're saved by grace of course but also adding these other works to get you there uh you can't it is wrong to be able to to unite on a common front whatever that front is if it's under the guys of we are believing the same thing I and this is just me I I have no problems when there is a catastrophe there's a world event something say 9911 happened and everybody's running to the rubble to help I saw pastors and and Priests and Jewish RAB Rabbi is uniting to be able to help people I think that's a wonderful thing but it needs to be know from it it can't be under the guise of we share one common Faith there's got to be I I I I don't know how to I'm put I'm thinking as I'm talking but there's more Unity within diversity I guess than trying to make everybody the exact same in what we believe and therefore we can get together like I have more I have I'm it's easier for me to be able to unite with someone knowing they believe something different and everybody in front of us knows that too but we can still share a cause elsewhere and that's okay it just can't be over doctrine that is so clearly placed in Scripture that this other person this other system does not believe in you know I look at again going back to the scriptures Ephesians 28-9 if I had one verse one passage you know you're in a Drive-Thru and and the person the kid giving your food is Roman by the way because I've done this several times is Roman Catholic and you ask him very quick do you know the difference between biblical Christian and Roman Catholicism they never do hardly ever and you got one thing to say quote Ephesians 28:9 that by Grace you are saved right uh through faith and this is not of your own doing it is the gift of God all of it comes from God starts with God it's a it's God it's a gift not a result of works so that no one may boast Roman Catholic Dogman is going to say yes you're saved by grace of course but and through faith just not alone you have to now do these other things you know so Ephesians 289 is just a wonderful passage to be able to at least memorize and quote biblically something that is a clear difference between the soteriology of Roman Catholicism and biblical Christianity I think it's a sticky issue I appreciate you bringing it because I I think in the sense of as a Bible believing Christian yeah I have Partnerships with Roman Catholics in the sense that there's services that people that believe in Roman Dogma provide to me some of them might work on my car some of them might you know help me at the grocery store so in a in a very practical sense how do they help you in the grocery store helping me helping me figure out the machines that I can SC the food on anymore um but I I do think that when we as Christians uh remember the poor or we are trying to offer humanitarian Aid we're doing that under the banner of Christ and Paul tells us very clearly specifically talking about our Partnerships with with um unbelievers and namely those who our ministry Partnerships with unbelievers do not be bound together with unbelievers for what partnership has righteousness and lawlessness or what Fellowship has light with darkness and the context of that passage is Ministry so I do think that when and I understand what you're saying but I am very hesitant to even stand at an abortion clinic with a Roman Catholic because the reason I'm standing in an abortion Catholic is not simply to save that physical life I'm standing in an abortion clinic because yes that baby's made in the image of God but I am supremely concerned with that baby be soul and I don't want to confuse someone about about how someone's soul is saved so I understand your point 100% but I do think it's a it's difficult to to to untangle that mess because yeah can do Roman Catholics do good human humanitarian stuff yeah I think on a on a on a on a human level maybe there's some things that for sure they do um but but again the their what is their motivation for doing it well certainly it's to build the Roman Catholic Church it's not a pure motive they're they're they're under demonic deception yeah Ryan I'm with you I often go out to abortion clinics and they really put us to shame the Roman Catholics they're outnumbering US 10 to one in some cases but a couple of reasons I go is number one to try and protect the physical life of the baby in the womb but secondly and more importantly is to share the gospel so that spiritual life can be offered to Roman Catholics who are dead in their sins and they don't know and one of the things that we have to be careful of going back to our discussion we cannot Unite with them in prayer they have a different spiritual father and so if we open a prayer Father in Heaven no we can't do that with Catholics they have a different father and so I usually if I'm going to pray with unbelievers I'll say almighty God or Lord you know that's how we open the prayer but not father yeah you know and that if you go to a a Roman Catholic Church I I recently attended a a funeral for a family member not recently but a couple years ago and there is a part in the service where you everybody kneels and they're praying together and I think I stood up while they were praying just a protest so everybody knows I'm not in this still carrying on the Reformation the deacons and the priests man they marked me and simp reform and I didn't so anyway yeah I but we encourage that because we need to take a stand and say you know know what what we believe about the gospel is true and it really matters and that we're dealing with eternal souls and we do need to stand up against those who are preaching a false and fatal gospel Ryan if I could also interject we get so many questions all the time via email phone calls letters my family's Roman Catholic should I attend baptisms or confirmations or weddings in the Catholic church and so I often respond this is a good teaching opportunity you have to explain to them why you cannot attend because the Roman Catholic view of baptism is that of regeneration and justification and that goes against clear Biblical teaching and so use it as a teaching moment to explain great counsel yeah and um and then I always leave it with a caveat as much as I love you and my family I love my Lord and Savior more than that and I cannot dishonor him by going into a church that teaches a false gospel and leads people down the wide road to destruction Luke 14 if you don't love Jesus more than your mother and father then you cannot follow him yeah and Mike what would you say to those who identify as Catholic not just for religious reasons but for social and political ones you see this often in especially South America other countries yeah it's U an issue that we've really been touching on as far as uh you know we can have a common camaraderie if you will on political issues but when whenever we introduce theology to it that's when we have to stay separate you know we have been Sanctified by the truth we've been called out of the world of people for God's Own possession so as you quoted from 2 Corinthians 6:14 to18 in spiritual Enterprises we cannot have Unity with unbelievers and what do you say to those um I'm sorry I want to get to that question but maybe just to insert a question please would be just to ask Mike to at some point if uh to the Roman Catholics that may be watching this what would you say to them yeah I would encourage them to not believe anything I've said unless it lines up with scripture that must be our supreme authority Amen in all matters of Faith so test my teaching test your priest teaching test your Pope's teaching does it line up with scripture if not reject it the second thing I would say is you need to look to Jesus as your all sufficient Savior and I know Catholics will be unwilling to let go of what they're doing to save them elves until they know that Christ is sufficient and the third thing I would say is the promise of the Gospel is eternal everlasting life with Christ you don't have that now all you have is conditional life you have no good news as a Catholic so by trusting Christ alone as your all sufficient Savior by repenting of the false way getting off the Broadway and getting on the narrow way you too can have eternal everlasting life with the Savior and Mike one question that often comes up uh regarding the Bible um so many Catholics would say well we gave you the Bible we gave protestantism the Bible what do you say to that well first of all the Catholic church was not around in the Jewish Old Testament it was closed 400 years before U Christ in the first century and we know from the first century that the scriptures were passed around from church to church and the church in the first century knew what the inspired word of God was in fact we even had Peter saying Paul's writings were scripture and so the scriptures in the first century were consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in fact we're even to hold the apostolic Traditions that were given in the first century as we see but they were already delivered and then we see in Jude 3 that we're earnestly contend for the faith that was once and for all delivered in the first century so the cannon was closed everybody knew what the scriptures were later on in the third and fourth Century they had canons primarily to eliminate spirous books that wanted canonicity and so everybody again knew what the scriptures were Christians were dying for the scriptures that they believed in and so when Catholics tell me you wouldn't have the Bible except for the Catholic church I respond well why don't you read it and believe it then you can be set free from the bondage of religious deception yeah there's uh this whole is I appreciate what Mike just said because it's so important and the history of the canonicity of scripture there's a lot of misunderstandings about that but there's some great resources even newer ones I'm thinking off the top of my head that really delve into this issue that see the Roman Catholic Church are going to think like councils and Creeds um you know different Church Gatherings with with with a bishop or perhaps a a notable priest or a committee is what gave the scriptures its Authority and that's one of the biggest differences between Roman Catholicism and and prism within how we view the Bible because we're going to say no the church did not give the give the Bible its Authority the people that recognized certain writings were of a different nature it's inspired it's an erent it's theological it's all it's not non-contradictory were recognized as holy writings so they were already by the first century by the end of the first century and certainly in the second century there already was this what Chad Spelman has written a monograph on called a con a Canon Consciousness there was already a consciousness of a of a group of writings that were different than everything else I would also uh recommend Benjamin L's uh creating the Canon and 40 questions of um on the Apostle Paul also gets into this uh Charles quals and and Kellum Scott Kellum do 40 questions on text and Canon these things these issues are are are are delved delved in a very deep matter to be able to show even on an accessible matter that when the Canon was created when we say created quote unquote it was recognized as being inspired writings and then the Canon has Authority as this this list or this group collection of writings but it didn't give it its Authority it recognized the authority that was already there and this is very early in church history it's not until and Mike you can uh uh correct me WR here I think what we call the Apocrypha books these these works that were never considered in even in the Jewish faith because these were there were in testamental writings were never considered on the same par as what we consider the Old Testament books or the Hebrew scriptures they were always helpful there were there were a movement of writings when God was now silent in his giving of Revelation between that in our pressent cannons between Malachi and the Book of Matthew that 400 years there came out of all these new writings in a sense to give hope and encouragement to the Israel PE to the Jewish people and the Israel Nation those were never looked at on the same Authority having the same Authority and the same nature as the inspired writings of what we call the Old Testament it wasn't until I think Council of Trent perhaps where canonize those Apocrypha books you're right Cory we really need to address why the Catholic Church added it to their Canon and the reason being is because they were trying to give credibility to their Trilogy of deception which is venial sins purgatory and indulgences you know we didn't discuss it earlier but I call it uh the trilogy of deception the the LIE of Satan was perpetrated by the Catholic church with its doctrine of venial sins and uh when Catholics die with a venial sin they need a place to sin them so they created this place called purgatory and now they're in purgatory now you need to get them out so they created the doctrine of indulgences all this to say that the Catholic Church recognized in second macbes that they were sending alms back to Jerusalem for the dead soldiers that died with Pagan amulets around their neck and so the Catholic Church said see the Jew je sent alms back to Jerusalem therefore there must be an intermediate place that people go to that's not heaven or hell and so Doctrine you will not find in any scriptural writings insired canonical writings these are outside the Canon right in fact uh how do we respond to Catholics well we don't do things just because the Jews did them after all the Jews rejected Jesus as a messiah and so yes the Jews did some things that were wrong but we don't pick them up and say these are good things to practice today but that's why they added the Apocrypha to their Canon Cory you brought up biblical literacy how biblical biblically literate are is your average Catholic they don't read the Bible you know more than ever I think since um since a lot of the Catholics were leaving to go to Evangelical Bible studies the Catholic Church initiated what's called The Little Rock scripture study and they St started to study the Bible more than ever before however it's always through the GD of Roman Catholic tradition and so they're really being blinded a lot from what the scriptures say clearly because of the tradition that's involved in it but um I would say that uh Roman Catholics who now read the Bible you know Jesus said a true disciple of mine is one who abides in my word then they will know the truth and the truth will set them free but Chris we've come a long way since the Counter Reformation because the Council of Trent put the Bible on the list of forbidden books and the reason is because the truth was setting people free so the only way they could stop that was to take the Bible away from the people in fact if you had a Bible as a Catholic in the 16 Century you could not have your sins forgiven until you returned it to the church Wow Mike just picking up on that I is that one of the reasons why a lot of Catholic masses are still in Latin is to keep the the word from the untrained sure good observation yeah it's called the trientine movement of the Catholic church and M Gibson is a part of that yeah so they keep it in Latin and uh keep the people ignorant from what the word of God says going back to indulgences isn't that why protestantism broke away to begin with with Martin Luther I mean isn't wasn't that the issue that was one of the Sparks of the Reformation yeah the nailing of the 95 thesis on the church D in vitberg um the selling of indulgences a lot of people don't realize but that's what funded St Peter's Basilica was the selling of God's grace and forgiveness through indulgences and for those that don't know what the word means it's the remission of temporal punishment for sin and so we know there's no such thing as temporal punishment you sin then you deserve Eternal death in the second Lake of Fire the sins who sins will die Ezekiel 184 scripture is clear this is something Martin Luther I mean to take it back to the Bible uh what he did it's hard cuz Scholars have to they have to pinpoint when did the Protestant Reformation start as if it was one day and it wasn't there were things in place for many years I mean go back to John wickliff in the 1300s I mean was already getting bringing the the God's word into the into English in the vernacular um but wherever wherever a revolution broke out over correct Doctrine and and and scripture it was because it was being translated or understood in the vernacular so 1517 sure we Martin Luther's 95 thesis on the on the vitberg C uh Catholic door castle door there um against indulgences primarily but I would make a case even in Academia he he wrote 97 or 98 thesis I think it's 97 several months prior uh in Latin so the 95 thesis was in German so that everybody can see it because they that's what they read Latin was the Scholastic language and he wrote to his colleagues 97 or 98 reasons why we have to go back to scripture back to the original Greek and Hebrew not rely on uh aquinus who was relying on uh on um Aristotle for so much what was Scholastic philosophical Theology and it started a revolution right there in the academy really going back to scripture um so I there could be a case being made that the Reformation proper as we understand it was even a few months before the 95 thesis and Martin Luther he also in 1520 so like three years after that he he rapid fired three amazing text quick quick rapid fire three Treatise that probably is what gave the Reformation its shape and its form um one was a letter to the German na uh to the Christian nobility of German Nation one was the Babylonian captivity what do you call the Babylonian captivity mean that Christians are as like a new Babylon were held in the shackles of Roman Catholic church and then the third was a uh the freedom of the Christian and this really gave the Reformation sort of that kick it needed because what Martin Luther did was like a battering ram of scripture alone showing that church councils and popes prior have all contradicted each other the scriptures are saying especially Peter if we're going to say he's the first pope well first Peter makes it very clear that we are a priesthood of Believers so we don't need this other person in our way uh so a doctrine of priesthood of Believers we have the Holy Spirit we are priests and ourselves uh if you are regenerate and and a Christian so you have the authority to be able to read and and uh contradict the very teachings that Rome has been thrown out there and the freedom of the Christian that you have not to be doing all these different sacs now he wasn't perfect in in some of these treaties because he still he was a Roman Catholic augustinian monk holding on to some of these things but it was really in those three tracks those three treats in 1520 um where Roman where Martin Luther realized you know there's no purifying of the Roman Catholic church we actually have to break away and that was where it was like a split thing and it it brought back to the Bible he was using scripture and lot like a battering ram to just just just demolish what he called the romanist walls at that time you know my church history is a little fuzzy but wasn't it his students who translated into German and put it on the church door or did he translate in German I know his students put it on the door his he didn't expect his students to be able to disseminate it which they did yeah um maybe I'm wrong here I I'm thinking that he wrote in Germany maybe he did in Latin and then it got translated that makes sense as well too because my church history is on the fly right here as well the the reason just for our I don't mean but that's why it was the r 95 thesis was so became so widely disseminated because it was in the in the language of of the people yeah the for our a one of the things that happens is I talk to Roman Catholics and they really don't like Martin Luther um but but I I would encourage ROM and Catholics to read about the life of Luther Luther got a hold of the original languages and he began to realize what he was taught was in contradiction with scripture and this is what I love about Mike Jin's Ministry he just hammers it read the Bible um God speaks through his word and so we would just challenge those listening you know go to the word of God compare it against the doctrine of Rome Luther that's what Luther did he did and he wasn't consistent with it as well he he had problems but I what I like what what Mike did is that when the question was how do we how do you equip how do you know your you know what what what you say to Roman Catholic friends he's like being a good ban hold me accountable to the word of God go back to the scriptures so we're not saying we follow Martin Luther as in what became Lutheran or John Calvin which became Calvinists which the joke is always these these Fountain heads probably wouldn't be part of their own tradition um you know celebrity Cults always seem to to to to to form around a a very well-known you know energetic Bible teacher you see that in First Corinthians but go back to scripture and keep our leaders and teachers accountable accountable to that and Corey it's good I think to bring this up because a lot of Catholics will say well there's a lot of division among Protestant churches and we say Amen there are many Protestant denominations and church Church es that have gone apostate just as the Roman Catholic church has they no longer submit to the authority of scripture they've compromised the gospel even removing the essentials of the Gospel so that it can be more encompassing more unifying and so that's what happens when you start altering the gospel you have a wider audience but the True Church of Jesus Christ is United we've been called out of the world of people for God's Own possession we all have un in the gospel that's the only way to be in the Lord's church we are baptized by one Spirit into one body and we do that because we believe the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and what do you say to those um who want to dismiss doctrinal differences let's just dismiss it let's just all get along it's all in favor of unity you know you know it's unloving what yeah Jesus uh came to divide father against son mother against daughter the personification of Truth Jesus said I am the truth I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me he's the way for those who are lost he's the truth for those who are deceived and he's the very life for those who are dead in their sin so they've got to come to Christ and you know if you really love someone you won't let them March proudly toward Hell's Gate you will inter intervene you will give them the gospel and call them to repent and believe the truth yeah was it wasn't it Charles Spurgeon that said that if someone's going to go to hell let them go to hell or our dead bod that's right and I'm thinking as Mike is talking too the Francis Schaefer decades ago made it very clear truth demands conflict sure and when when you're speaking truth especially biblical truth it's not about making people comfortable um and you need to expect opposition it's going to demand as soon as you say some a proposition this way there is an opposite to it and there's going to be a slew of people that agree with the opposite and so it's going to We Can't our gauge can't be is it friendly do we have more friends do we have more people in the church that are that are coming in because they're feeling comfortable or whatever it may be truth the man's conflict and as Mike quoted from from the gospels matth I mean Jesus made that very clear he came to divide and that's what truth does and I would like to commend Corey Marsh's book to our listeners biblical Literacy By Dr Corey Marsh Mike's got a copy he's gonna hold up if you're that wasn't my Shameless plug that wasn't scripted at all but I'll take it that it's it's a it's a it's a primer on or primer in-house debate uh on biblical literacy Prim if you're a Roman Catholic and you're not sure how to start as it relates to understanding the Bible that's an excellent book that will help you begin to uh understand how to study scripture thank you Ryan and Ryan one last thing too the very nature of deception is that people do not know they're deceived until they're confronted with the truth and Christians are truth bearers we have have to lovingly confront people in their error that's the only way they're ever going to find out they've been deceived I was deceived for 35 years of my life it wasn't until I opened the word of God that I was confronted with the truth so that's what we need to do amen and I can you speak to some of the resources um those watching or listening can find at proclaiming theeg gospel.org sure our book preparing for eternity has set so many Roman Catholics free from the bondage of religious deception and what I do in the book as I just lay alongside side by side the truth of God's word with the catechism of the Catholic church and it forces a Catholic to do what I was forced to do am I going to trust Christ in his word or the teachings and traditions of My Religion because it's impossible to believe both when you see them side by side you know there's a direct conflict and so we just pray that God would open their eyes open their hearts to receive the truth with gladness and joy so that's uh our most popular book The ecumenical movement motivated me to write contending for the gospel because so many evangelicals were signing Unity Accords with Catholics and I think the greatest attack on the Christian faith today is an attack on the Purity and exclusivity of the gospel and so that's what contending for the gospel does it it says the battle is for The Souls of men and it's a battle between the truth of God's word and the lies of the devil and we need to stand firm on the truth of God's word we really believe in literature evangelism after we give the gospel verbally we need to leave it in written form as well and so we have eight different gospel tracks and depending on how the conversation goes we know exactly what to leave behind we also have DVDs with all of our messages on keynote and PowerPoint a set of gospel cards the 12 most important words of the Gospel that Define each word according to scripture and more than ever I think we need to re-educate people on what the gospel is and what the gospel is not amen and we've got a monthly newsletter that goes out to keep people informed of what's going on in the Vatican and how we can be more faithful Witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ that's just tremendous and and I'll crit it to you and Jane who is outside your helper extraordinaire yeah she does all my slides and uh she's uh the second greatest blessing in my life well praise God for her right well thank you Corey thank you Ryan and thank you Mike for joining us and thank you for tuning [Music] in
