Masso G3 Controller Claims 164ft Step And Direction Signal Lead Length

hey guys it's Vince today in this video we're taking a look at masso documentation once again regarding their G3 integrated controller now this video actually stemmed from a end user of theirs contacted me about custom motor cables being made I then did the video I posted it actually yesterday early afternoon and I started instantly getting a lot of Fanboy attacks from the masso G3 stating that that I wasn't being technical with what I was discussing with motor cable lengths and so on and so forth so that's what drove me to take the video down and actually redo it to make sure I'm being as explicit as possible for any novice end user looking at purchasing this controller I've already done multiple videos on this unit reflecting that there's discrepancies in their manual as far as any type of wiring diagrams I did that last week on the Hy vfd uh and actual spindle integration and now I'm going to show you some things that make no logistical sense and if you do an open Google search regardless of what I say you will find no information on this so let's Jump Right In and we're going to cover this in explicit detail and you can see here on the mass so it says all access outputs are differential signals with ne4 to positive4 voltage signals okay we know that let's skip on to that not a big deal when masso differential outputs can work up to 50 m when a highquality twisted pair cable with uniform impedence and low attenuation is used with a suitable differential receivers such as used in the masso Clos Loop stepper motor or the masso differential receiver module now guys that to me is a bold ridiculous claim without showing proof of this and why I say we want to show proof of this and I want to be explicit for all those guys out there who once again are saying oh well you're confusing motor cables and this and that and the other thing the bottom line is this your step and Direction signals that are right here connected to the drive you guys were right I wasn't explicit in stating that the cable length on these are not the power cables going to the actual motor that's true in certain instances in the particular instance when dealing with masso Clos Loop steppers that is not true and why I say that's not true if we come over here and we look at the masso closed loop stepper where once again it's discussed using differential signals and we look here it states once again that up to 50 m between masso and masso Clos Loop stepper motor can be achieved when using highquality twisted pair cable with uniform impedence and low attenuation well the reason they're saying that is because the drive itself is mounted to the motor therefore that makes a motor cable okay so once again we're back at that conundrum of is this achievable is it possible to have a 50 m length and for my guys out there who are like me who are dealing with Imperial because no one goes with meters just to clarify how long that is let's let's look at this a meter is 3.28 Ft you can look at that online if you'd like times 50 that's 164 ft now whether that's going to be using their Motors where the drive is mounted at the motor end and therefore it would be integrated in the cable sending no step and Direction signals over that distance or for that matter if we come back here and we look at step and Direction signals coming from the drive itself a Servo or stepper Drive which you can see right here that would mean essentially your drive is going to be up to 164 ft from inputting no signals into the G3 now the question here and what these gentlemen fail to realize is that it's interesting when you think if you have 64t cable coming in from just a step and Direction signals I'm being very careful here in saying that and then you have a motor cable which is going to extend that length even farther going to your motor itself what do you think you're going to do to the signals are we saying that the signals will not be affected by this at all because no Drive manufacturer recommends exceeding 25 ft on stepper Motors and you can see here we had that the wiring between stepper Motors and drivers not exceed 25 ft in length now I know there's going to be technicalities as far as guys saying well they're not talking about the power cable that's true they're not what do you think as far as signals are being sent when it comes from the step and Direction uh leads coming from the drive itself it's just a byproduct of these signals being pass to the motor cables so if you think in terms of what I'm saying your motor cables are just as critical as these leads and transfer the exact same signals okay so when I hear guys saying that and saying that oh it's not the motor power cable running directly to the motor it's the actual uh step and Direction signal leads coming from the drive they are essentially one and the same guys you're going to still extend length when you attach a motor cable to your system and the step and Direction leads coming from the drive if those are already at 164 ft you're never going to have your Motors directly mounted to your controller where the masso is so looking at this just once again Anaheim automation states that we advised once again that the wiring between stepper Motors and drivers not exceed 25 ft who is Anaheim automation Anaheim automation is a major automation distributor manufacturer of steppers and servos on top of lineer axis they've been in uh production forever um and they are located in Anaheim California you can do this research yourself maximum length for a stepper motor cable excuse the fact that I misspelled maximum you can see here what we have um if we come down here once again we look at the ESS and the reason I want to discuss the ESS excuse me is because I think some guys get confused on ethernet cable lengths when dealing with signals and what I mean to say is when you have an ethernet cable and this is direct from 9's website which once again is a manufacturer of the ethernet smoothstepper ethernet controller if you're running an Ethernet controller where you're using a CAT 5 cable to plug into the ethernet port on the ESS and then run that ethernet port of the other end of the cable to your actual PC you can run that up to 100 m now that's a totally different cable than the step and Direction signals that are coming off the drive the other other fact is that maximum length for a USB cable is 5 m and again that's really tough to do with USB because again it's a very uh it's an insufficient transfer of signals essentially it's only running on 5 volts it's got a lot of grounding issues we've seen that with B's email I've put that in numerous videos but once again I want to clarify if you're running a CAT 5 cable from an Ethernet controller be it the ESS the uc400 running that cable from that controller meaning the ethernet smooth stepper or the UC 400 going to a PC can be up to 100 m that does not mean your controller meaning where your drives are where your uh breakout board is those leads inside the controller can be that length let's make sure we're on the same page if anyone is confusing that because once again you guys want accurate information and for those technical guys out there who are fanboys of this controller we're going to cover cover everything in explicit detail the other thing is this I'm not blaming them wholeheartedly I came here to drive Tech and I just did open searches on Google and I came here and it says is there a maximum length of encoder cables now what's interesting here is is this gentleman is claiming to be a motion control specialist and somebody says what measures you have to pay attention to when uh long encoder or Hall sensor cables involved standard cables in use by Motors and sensors might just have a length of 30 cm up to 3 m sometimes this is not long enough especially if controllers are installed in a cabinet of a machine which might be placed some meters away or even in another room and then he States here there is no General answer concerning the maximum cable length a cable length of up to 10 meters can be handled without any problems uh I agree with that that statement I totally agree with it's been proven before um if some special measures are taken into account even cable lengths up to to 50 or 100 m have been successfully in use if anything is installed in a perfect way and the signal quality is checked and confirmed during initial commissioning now guys I'm telling you right now it's interesting he would make a statement like that and or I should say an opinion like that because there's nothing surrounding that there is no proof of that I've never seen that done and I've never seen again especially with an encoder where we're dealing with a Servo that would mean both cables would have to be that long that means the cable going to the motor as well as the encoder cable so that would mean no corruption in either of those cables in any sense of form and once again he says in a perfect way well there is no perfect way we know that in engineering and then he comes over here and it says encoders typically have a tight tolerance concerning the supply voltage in case of 5vt positive negative 5% specification this means at least 4.75 volt has to be present well that's interesting because as we come down here he's going to talk about voltage drop excuse me has to be present in coded Supply voltage input to ensure its operation the voltage drop of long cables can get critical from the supply voltages point of view if the supply voltage is not sufficient the sensor signals will not be present that is totally correct wrong or sometimes missing the root cause of missing pulses is often the supply voltage and not the Civil uh signal level uh like expected therefore it's important to ensure that the specified Supply voltage is present at the encoder's connector this can be improved by using thicker wire gauges inside the cable actually such thicker wires are just required for the supply voltage and groundwire the voltage drop of the sensor wires is not so critical like mentioned above well guys once again I would have to disagree with that every cable is critical you're carrying signals any voltage drop is going to affect those signals reception and if you don't believe that I'm talking about stability when I talk about stability I talk about it in real world use I'm not not talking about a guy on the internet showing you his system move back and forth like so many of these guys do okay now when we think of the guys and this is what I get such interest in is I think of the guys that make the comments who are fanboys of this controller representing these kind of claims is you click on their link to go to their site as far as on YouTube account they never have any feedback they never have any videos nothing they make claims and these are the same guys the majority of them that are in these forums making these claims in supporting them because they use their controller and they feel it's great well you know what that's fantastic just don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes in the sense of what's possible and what isn't without verifiable proof okay once again making claims like this with no proof doesn't make sense so I can see confusion on both ends meaning I can see that there are guys out there saying you know like this gentleman where he States oh this has been done you know for all you know long lengths of time and that's why there's not a video proving it well that doesn't make any logical sense if the internet shows with a Google search that we can't find a video proving anyone ever going that long with signals I would say it defines pretty much it's never been done because there's no requirement to do it okay number one number two it's extremely costly um the cost of a double shielded 18 gauge Ultra Flex cable like my DS flexion that even at my wholesale cost of $2.60 a foot is $260 on 100t cable so what do you think it's going to cost at 164 ft think logically guys none of this makes any sense logically and that's the whole point I'm trying to make when we look at this and we look at manufacturer recommendations on motor cable length where yes technically speaking we are talking about step and Direction signals here and not motor cable length however they essentially affect each other the signals they're carrying are the same whether one is going to your drive direct or from your drive or for that matter going to the motor it's still the same signals it's all coming from this board and coming from this drive or whether it's right here the cable as an intermediary going to plug into the masso or it's on the other end the thing to keep in mind is the closer your drive is to the masso the better off you are okay the reason this statement was made was once again because of their close loop steppers which have an integrated drive into them okay and then if we come down here once again it's very interesting where it says under information and this is dealing with their own Motors guys use shielded Twisted pairs between mass and the motor for step and Direction differential signals this will provide the greatest noise immunity this is true you should be using double shielded cable ensure that The Shield is connected to the ground at the masso end only do not ground The Shield at both ends or you will create a ground Loop well that's great once again and I'll just point this out and I want to hear their Fanboys explain this where does it say there that a professional should be connecting and working with the masso to build your controller it doesn't it's assuming a DIY attitude meaning their whole premise is to sell you a controller that you're going to build yourself well that'd be great if they actually provided the information required to do that so whether you're a fanboy of the unit or not you can't argue with the fact that they're making uh direct statements here do not ground The Shield at both ends or you will create a ground Loop and they're telling you basically how to wire something without definitively showing it and that's really interesting there's no grounding present here in the sense of a ground bus or anything like that and then over here this is where it gets really interesting AWG 24 gauge cable that's 2 mm in diameter I want you guys to think about that2 mm to 22 gauge which is.3 mm in diameter is suitable for Signal wires ensure the wires are multistranded and twisted well Twisted wires do help mitigate Some Noise they are not even close to being as effective effective as double shielded cables as double shielded cables essentially have a feraday cage around them acting as a filter and that's the whole idea of double shielded cables it's also why doubl shielded cables are so expensive it's amazing they're so conf to say that they these leads whether it be a motor Cable in this case which is a motor cable due to the fact that once again it's a motor with the drive uh actually the driver on the back of it they don't show that this could be up to 50 m in length it's interesting they just talk about it but they're not showing this this is the area that they're saying can be up to 164 ft in length that's ridiculous guys and to say that and not show it showing that the system is stable at that length it creates Mass confusion regardless of what you believe now once again that's only using this motor which is their branded unit now we all know Clos Loop stepper Servo whatever you want to call it the bottom line is this they're all going to be susceptible to the same signal uh impedance as far as actually dealing with any type of interference at that level now of course we use double shielded cables that's going to mitigate that interference if the system is built correctly but we're still dealing with voltage drop now I brought this up and when I brought this voltage drop calculator up on the previous video I had that guy once again say well you put it in at 3 amps cuz I was I was discussing the motor cable end and I was saying the motor cable end dealing with a branded motor that was not a a proprietary motor of masso and I had it at 3 amps but he brought up that I listed it at 3 amps here and step and Direction signals are never 3 am well you're absolutely right sir but let me clue you in on something let's look at these measurements motor uh excuse me wire diameter size is 18 gauge which would be standard for motor cables and if it's not going to be 18 gauge and we were going to go up with this to let's say 24 gauge and we say wire cable length at 164 ft current type DC voltage in volts 5 volts and we're going to say current in amps which is typically .5 okay if we calculate that your voltage drop right there is 4.19 volts and this is looking at this calculator now in no way shape or form is this 100% accurate none of them are guys this is where Theory comes to logic and this is where true engineering comes in first you look at the theory then you prove your your actual concept of theory okay that's how real engineering works we don't make statements on something unless it's been Prov proven okay that's why when we look at facts of real engineering they just take cars for instance Elon mus doesn't release a car without physically testing their engineering theories behind it this is there's no denying this it's right there in front of you and even if we go to 22 gauge uh leads at 164 ft calculate you still have a voltage drop of 2.64 volts this is undeniable it's undeniable that this range is Def definitively possible percentage of voltage drop is 52.8 are you telling me that's not going to affect the system or even potentially affect the system because I myself in all honesty have not tested it at all but at least I can say that and and say that without me manufacturing this controller when I see things like this and it's funny even one of the guys that commented he said 50 m is actually going a long way you know or it's a a you know it's a bold clamp well saying that and not showing it and and that's the thing that makes really no sense is confusing and let me explain why it's confusing as a vendor myself if I developed this controller guys and I said uh or I knew that this unit could actually handle that kind of signal reception at that distance it would make this controller stand out above everything else cuz essentially what they're saying is you could have this controller itself an electronic end as far as the masso G3 unit this board inside an office and have your machine somewhere around you know 200 feet away I mean that's a massive claim it's a massive claim and it's a massive selling point who would leave that money on the table you'd make that a point so that you would actually increase the selling percentage of the unit that tells you something is a miss the other thing is we talk about this twisted pair of cable that they're recommending well once again we're making recommendations here without without even telling you what cables they recommend which should tell you right away they've never tested a cable in conjunction with that length and this is just pure logic who would do that I mean it doesn't make any sense no one will leave the money on the table they could become an affiliate or carry the cable themselves and make a fortune unfortunately what's being facted here is we're making claims without any verifiable proof and when I see guys that confuse things even more for end users it's scary and like I said I'm not blaming them by themselves this is a direct post from somebody claiming to be a motion control specialist but when we say 50 to 100 MERS uh has been successfully in use when we do an open Google search of that I've never seen an encoder cable ever go past 30 ft and that's a fact so I mean that's really pushing it in itself we're not talking about large voltage limits he just said it right here so it's kind of contradictory and then to say that voltage does doesn't really play a role well everything with electronics is based on voltage every cable that is in excess of any length is susceptible to voltage drop it's a byproduct guys of resistance so if you want to check this out and you want to confirm it you confirm it the big thing here is let's not try to convolute the waters for guys getting involved with this system let's tell them the truth that is totally crazy without seeing verifiable proof of that if the system has not been deemed stable once again when I say stable I'm going to Define what I mean by stable and what everyone out there I believe would would affirm is stable it doesn't mean showing jogging back and forth for a quick YouTube video to Market this unit it means showing a job being run in excess of 18 hours like most guys do to profit with this system and show that the machine is stable matter of fact do it for a week if you're making a bold claim like that whether it's a day or a week it shouldn't matter matter it's just going to take you time to set the camera up and leave it there so again I'm telling you right now when companies make claims like this and don't show it that's a bold claim to make and you know and basically what they do show and this is interesting we come down here they're saying their differential receiver module just to make sure we're clarifying that this little board is basically taking all these drives which once again are some of the example drives that do not support differential signals you can see the G23 right there and again they've got the wiring here uh theow diagram shows a gecko g203 vew drive that takes TTL signals with a common negative mounted differential receiver close to the drives so they want this receiver close to the drive so this would be essentially in your electronics enclosure with the drive and then you can have that 164 ft cable because they're boosting the signal essentially is what they're trying to say from 12 to 24 volts yet up here the masso differential receiver module can be used to control up the 5 AIS drives and also provide 5 volts so that no external 5vt power power supply is required once again we jump up to 12 to 24 Vols and that's said to be done you are still going to experience voltage drop and you will see that now here and once again is it going to be as much of course not you're still going to see a voltage drop at uh 2.64 volts at 22 gauge wire which I have no idea why you would ever use leads that small or recommend leads that small over that distance I mean that is crazy czy we know that a thicker gauge wire is going to have less resistance provide more adequate transfer of electricity that does not make any sense whatsoever and I'm speaking as an engineer you would never want to go beneath 18 gauge and just to prove that we go to 18 gauge excuse me you can see if we calculate you see your voltage drop dramatically meaning you're actually increasing More Voltage to go through that cable because again we have less resistance so looking at this and once again going through all of these uh parameters that they've given us as far as details about what they're doing and again this is not one drive they're saying all these drives wiring example four wire optically isolated and now they're showing you this and once again I'm going to point it out I've did this in my last video you could see their wiring diagrams as generic as can be end users look at this they see the lead coming over here and they see it goes okay step negative and Direction negative and it merges what they're not showing is a correct terminal splitter to actually join those leads together so what do guys do they daisy chain it together meanwhile the drives manufacturer will always say do not use daisy chaining but they don't even confirm that right here in their controller so regardless of what you choose I want you guys out there and I'm talking about the novices not the guys who've already purchased their unit are content with it in the sense that hey I don't care what what's best practice I care that I've already got the unit wired and I don't see issues these are the guys that make comments they're the guys that are continuously validating a controller because they find that they're happy in their particular instance which is great the issue is this novices looking at this think differently than you do in the sense that hey I want to start right and I want to do things right and understand best practice so I know what I'm getting involved with and that's the guys I'm really pointing this to differential signals do provide more immunity to Emi that's fact I mean there's definitely a benefit to using them however let's not make claims that can shoot yourself in the foot especially when they haven't been proven with your controller let alone controllers online I mean we're hearing about this uh that this has been done for years and that's why no one said anything I disagree with that we're talking about two totally different entities when we're talking about motor cables and in this instance with their own uh Motors we're talking about a motor cable and do do your homework there is no perfect controller that's a fact whether it be a gecko whether it be a masso there is nothing that's absolutely perfect they all going to have little quirks here and there but making like I said bold claims for my guys out there who are looking to spend their money and and once again that it's hard-earned money and these units are not cheap making claims like this is convoluted it confuses you so look at this carefully study it study the voltage drop calculator rapidtables.com you can go on a different site once again I left the uh resistivity the same you can put in whatever numbers you want here it'll give you uh a base line once again it's not exact but it does show you what you're dealing with and voltage drop is real and we all experience it so again guys I hope that this video being more explicit and more detail has covered everything and regardless of guys who already have this system and are happy God bless you for the guys looking to buy a system know what you're getting involved with understand that if you purchase this unit there are certain things that are being said that you really need to double check as a matter of fact and this I've said in the previous video and I'm going to say it again when you're looking at stuff like this and you have questions like this go directly to your drive manufacturer the thing about CNC equipment and Hardware especially Electronics is that a lot of times uh other vendors do not realize manufacturers in this case of components they have to be working in conjunction with other components that means compatibility has to be there so you can call your drive manufacturer or should be able to if they're supporting their drives and ask them what kind of compatibility uh is possible when statements like this are made do you see any issues with this because I find it really hard to believe that a drive manufacturer would say no that's possible do it and will be responsible they're not going to do that guys I'm telling you right now that's not going to happen I've been dealing with this well over a decade uh as far as Automation and I could tell you right now I've never ever seen that I've never seen claims like this so think about it you always have steps to get your resources with more information whether it be Google whether it be the drive manufacturer asking these questions will protect you in the long run and make sure that your money is safe so again guys I want to thank you all for your support I hope that this video has been explicitly clear I hope you think about exactly what I said and ask the right questions take care

Channel: Corvetteguy50

Views: 617

Keywords: CNC, Gecko G540, CNC Plasma, CNC Retrofit, Tormach, Bridgeport, CNC Routerparts, Automation Technology, Nema 23, Nema 34, Centroid CNC, Centroid Acorn, CNC Profit, Work From Home, Make Money, Business, GeckoDrive, Gecko, G203v, Leadshine, CNCDrive, Stepcraft, Sherline, Machinist, Lathe, Mill, Fusion 360, Solidworks, Bobcad, Vectric, Sheetcam, Hypertherm, Mach3, UCCNC, Ethernet Smooth Stepper, Artcam, Rhinocam, Robot, home switch, limit switch, CNC coolant, reverse engineer, missed steps, Mach4

Id: sp_BKLawUgI

Length: 28min 38sec (1718 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 28 2024