Marriage Equality & Horizontal Representation of Transgender Persons & Their Impact on Workplaces

hi is this better now yes yeah no background noise okay I'll go live hello and good afternoon everybody Welcome to our session thank you Deepa hello everybody good afternoon thank you for joining us this isle's monthly webinar uh session which we have every third Thursday of the month today we have a very uh exciting panel and a great discussion lined up for you uh we hope you're going to enjoy it as much as we will uh I think you can see in front on the screen in front of you uh the names of the panelists but I will before I go on to introduce everybody here uh I'll just take a moment to set a little bit of context as to what it is that we do here so kelpechar conducts these sessions uh on a monthly basis as just mentioned uh in collaboration with Indian Lawyers Association and to talk a little bit about Ila we have mathura here thank you amulya thank you so much it's an absolute pleasure and privilege for us at Daily to have been working with kelpechar on this session Series so my name is madurai I represent Indian Lawyers Association a national level platform for all the legal professionals across the country to come together continue their education share Network and grow as a legal professional so uh because of this widespread vision mission and the objectives of this organization we operate in a way of having local chapters so we have about 75 chapters currently across the country and each chapters add a lot of local flavor in how Ila runs in their city so one of our recent initiatives is we are working on drafting a letter to be sent to India's honorable law Minister and it will be sent on 15th of August to this year and uh so all the legal professionals put there if you have any suggestions if you want to know more about this initiative please feel free to get in touch with us and we'll also be happy to send you more details of all initiatives that we that sounds like a great initiative thank you for sharing a little bit about kelp HR uh kelpechar is a HR Consulting and services firm our motto is to create happy safe and inclusive workplaces our mission is to create 10 000 safe workplaces and 10 million inclusive employees by 2030. and uh with your support I'm sure we will get there thank you all for your constant support and your participation in these sessions it is your participation that enriches this time that we all share and uh we're happy we're so happy to learn from each other and have this platform for these very critical uh and vital discussions that we get to have uh so you know with gratitude and with a lot of enthusiasm uh I would love to go into the topic of today's session so just to set some context uh but before that let me just quickly tell you a little bit about our panelists here today uh you might see that we had three panelists on the poster unfortunately uh one of them had a medical emergency and could not make it and they will be sorely missed that's kanmani kanmani is not able to make it here today but uh we have uh Shazia and Meenakshi with us is a Muslim CIS woman an intersectional feminist and queer Ally she is a posh trainer a Communications expert and enjoys creative facilitation we are so thrilled to have you here with our Shazia happy to be here thank you so much thank you and uh we have Meenakshi we also uh also known as M Knox M Knox is a non-binary trans person who comes from a savannah family they are a researcher at large and a SME at kelp HR so our resident SME uh and a lawyer to boot so uh it's wonderful to have you join us here M Knox it's a pleasure it's a pleasure and the topic that we have for you today to discuss is regarding marriage equality and horizontal reservation I think these words uh some of maybe these words do have a resonance for you uh especially the first two that I mentioned marriage equality uh because there has been some debate around it recently uh there has been uh it has been in the news of late because of the uh the cases being fought in in the Supreme Court regarding providing marriage equality uh to all regardless of their gender identity or their sexual orientation uh and there has been a lot of discourse around it horizontal reservation um in terms of my limited understanding and you know I'm learning uh is is the understanding of providing an intersectional uh reservation for members who belong to more than one uh vulnerable Community uh so suppose we are talking about uh you know persons who who happen to be trans as well as happen to be dalit uh horizontal reservation is a concept that allows uh us to take into account these multiple identities these multiple facets of everyone's identity and uh provide them their rightful uh you know space and Society keeping these things in mind uh so uh this is pride month June is pride month uh and uh you know we we want to platform these voices all through the year but I think this is a very opportune time to bring it into focus and uh really uh really understand how these issues also affect us in the workplaces right uh so I'm amulya I I am the lead of content and creative at uh kelp HR uh I'm also a lawyer and I'm I'm so excited to be learning from our panelists to just be having a conversation and uh if you have any questions please do drop them in the chat uh if you have any views that you would like to share the chat box is open and towards the end of the session we will open up for some questions as well so here we go so just to before I uh ask pose the question I just want to kind of say that uh in society today uh you know marriage is something that is seen as a necessary transition point in every adult's life right uh it changes a person's status regardless of whether they have already been uh you know a con a Civic uh citizen of the or Society regardless of whether they are a responsible earning member of a family or whether they are independent and being able to take care of themselves something changes in terms of how Society perceives you in terms of even how the laws perceive you the kind of Rights and the Privileges and the benefits uh that that are availed by a married person uh are not the same as given to a person who is not married um I think uh we can all agree on that uh but you know the question is the the point is that uh some of us uh some of us are unable to Avail that benefit or to get that recognition by Society uh even despite wanting to commit uh wanting to have that status want uh or or coming to that point in their lives and those happen to be we are talking specifically today about you know our uh uh the queer Community the the people who do not have the same rights in society in terms of marriage uh as compared to the CIS heteronormative uh community so let's talk a little bit about what does marriage give you in society today uh and and you know the as a lawyer maybe M Knox you can shed some light on you know what do you think uh suppose we were to talk about you know a couple with that wishes to adopt a child uh or if an unmarried couple wishes to live together uh would would the others go on mute please uh there's a bit of disturbance all right uh so yeah an unmarried couple wishes to live together uh regarding the the rights that somebody gets in order to suppose they are in a domestically violent situation or they want to divorce from their partner uh how do how does the right of marriage affect these situations would you like to shed some light on that yeah thank you amulya um I hope I'm Audible so um yeah um when we look at marriage as a concept it is uh these days uh definitely there is a lot of conversation around marriage that uh okay there's a lot of conversation around marriage that uh puts uh this question into a limelight whether to get married or not a lot of young people these days are questioning this right so when we come to uh and a lot of young people are also opting for marriage because of the security that it provides right it has been a institution that has always protected people uh who are within a kind of scenario where they are together and they want that kind of recognition in the society and security as a couple to stay together so um legally uh speaking first of all accessibility becomes a three-fold for a married couple compared to a couple who is unmarried uh if we look at uh like uh small towns or even cities uh even when you're looking for a flat the first thing people will ask you is that whether you're a married couple or not and a lot of uh queer people are often live together as uh flatmates but they do not have that security that a couple would receive uh while living together and they often have to lie about their uh relationship status to the landlords so first and foremost would be getting that accessibility to live in the society as a couple then secondly uh buying property so if if a couple wishes to buy a property um they can't be joint ownership of a person who is not married to you because they are not considered family when it comes to health care benefits you it is uh often more often than not queer people are estranged from their own families and uh any kind of healthcare emergency or benefits uh will not go through your spouse rather they will go to like your given family or like the family you were born in and it might not be the best case scenario for a queer person and uh also coming to uh insurance policies and different spaces though there is some inclusion happening these days but uh having marriage as a certificate does help people to get that valid recognition to access a lot of insurance loan joint ownership and a lot of other uh what you call benefits that a marriage may offer one uh example that I had heard somebody uh discussed was about uh uh how queer couples also get Innovative and they buy Two Flats next to each other and then break down the wall and make a house so um instead of coming up with these Innovations I guess it would be much easier to access these rights with marriage equality and also it's 2023 right we are here after so many years and uh like it is decriminalized it's okay to be queer and we are still fighting for a basic right uh that is marriage I I feel like it should not even be a question at this point like anybody who wants to get married should be allowed to marry each other and um it's a question of choice and who is paid to dictate our choices around this so yeah I think um I dropped myself there and allowed for eign especially in the realities that we live right now it's it's already filled with so much hate and uh so much questioning around your basic choices and marriage gives you that um I mean it's once our society our Indian Society has uh like in our lives everything revolves around marriage right you are uh you grow up you are a child you you grow up and the first thing that comes to your that comes to you from your parents your neighbors your extended family is that oh you have to do this then you'll become a better marriage Prospect everything is around that right but when queer people want the same thing it's like the tables just seem to have turned and they're laying and everyone is like no you can't get married and the the debates or rather the questions that have come around the marriage equality debate are mostly just prejudices from people who cannot accept that homosexuality exists that there are gay people there are people who are you know happy to be with their own be with the same sex people be with their uh be with just people who are who they are in love with and they uh don't conform to the societal norms and all of this just Riles people up into thinking how can you just step out of what we have dictated you to be and how your life should be I think for me especially I think all the conversations and all the debates against marriage equality boils down to this heterosexual uh heteronormative culture that we have built around us and everything around us so yeah just to start with I think that is what I would like to say that nothing makes sense to me in the marriage equality debate I mean the people opposing it because we are as as Square people we are ready to get married and that itself is a big thing for us and while everyone just wants to be like oh where are you getting married when are you getting married but we when we want to get married people just like no you can't it doesn't make sense to me like yeah yeah it's like the elders keep telling us to get married but now that people want to get married they're like no it's not allowed and I think you're absolutely right Shazia in that the uh points that are being made uh against uh making marriage equality a thing are rather flimsy uh in the sense there are talks about uh you know the fact that many definitions within the laws will have to change uh all right but is that a reason to not look at what what change the laws will bring in society is that a reason not to look at how it will guarantee the rights that are already that people are already entitled to is that a reason to say that uh we shouldn't look at it as a requirement because it will require the work of going back to the legislature surely that cannot be the main situation if if the point is about the the definitions that have to change the uh the aspects of child care the aspects these are all things that are up for debate these are all things that should be talked about and maybe this is the time for a change this is the time for a debate and a discussion uh but the central point being that this is already something that everyone should be entitled to there should be no discrimination in this regard is guaranteed to us under the constitution of India yes definitely and I mean again uh when we talk about when people come up with saying oh there's so many changes need to be made and we need to go back to this law and that laws but that is what the Constitution is for right that is why we have a progressive Constitution that we're supposed to work on towards uh based on every like you know timely changes that need to happen I mean intercast marriages into religious marriages these were also like a big thing back then we had to fight for these also and now we have a separate law for it that ensures that our safety exists so I mean saying that oh it's going to be a huge thing and we need to change this and that doesn't I mean it's not an argument that should also that should even be concerned because that's what the legislature is for that's what we have people in the courts hoping that's what we have people in the government Force to make sure that we as Citizens leave a healthy and happy and safe life absolutely so um in terms of your yeah sorry you wanted to add something yeah I just wanted to add one point that I missed was about very important point about child care and adoption so queer people do not get adoption right per se but they do adopt at this point in uh individual capacity and then raise a child together and when it comes to uh raising a child by a career couple uh it is not like it is not something that has not happened before presidentially it has been raised in communities kids have been raised by parents who are not conventional leased heteronormative men and women and still the kids have uh thrived and the kids have become [Music] fully grown individuals with the agency of their own where they can choose whatever they want to identify as and whoever they want to be and this whole there is this big debate about this uh gender apocalypse that will happen if we allow for queer couples to marry each other and all the kids will become gay I don't think people become gay people uh are queer by birth and they just realize that they are queer at some point in their life so if the child is getting that kind of access at an early age where they understand and I feel like this education should also reach this heteronormative parenting which is happening in this world that uh there should be gender and sexuality inclusive education from an early age because we have worked with kids I think me and Shazia we both have worked with students and kids and nobody is telling them anything but they have Tendencies where they talk about themselves like they have crushes on girls like a girl will have a crush on a girl instead of a boy and it is not like they're learning this from the society even in spaces where they do not have access to such language and the such exposure the kids are still identifying as queer or realizing queerness so having a safe space to navigate this queerness also comes from queer parenting and having inclusive queer parents around in the society so yeah I think that's just one point I wanted to add absolutely uh and thanks for sharing about you know the work that you have done uh and you know those experiences that are uh that are in enriching what you're what you're telling us as well uh overall it just feels like there is such a deep-seated Prejudice that is just coming out in these statements that are being made right that the queer people cannot be good parents where people you know don't need to be married it's an urban elitist view uh it's all a Prejudice that seems to want to keep queer people at the margins and not really have everyone as an integrated whole in your in your work as a development uh sector professional uh is there anything that you feel informs your perspective uh and and makes you feel more strongly about this yeah so I have worked with adolescent girls a lot I mean in the last three years I am I studied journalism but then I have done mostly Communications work in the development sector specifically with adolescent girls and young women and as M Knox said even though these kids these young girls might not have the vocabulary for it but they still know what they feel right they still know that something's happening and they relate to something and then they don't relate to something so this whole idea about that it's an urban concept or it's an elitist concept just doesn't stand because it doesn't matter where you come from or what kind of upbringing you have if you know something that fits right for you you know it and even though some one from a rural area might not have the words to say oh I am queer or oh I am an lgbtqia ally they still know and they practice it in their uh everyday life so I mean that has been so visible in the work that um I have done in the past so many girls and even though I mean and also when we go as we you know inclusive Trainers for people who are open to talk about lgbtqi issues and people who are open to talk about these things uh then it also becomes a safe place for these young people to uh then put on their questions that because some of them of them are not sure about okay what's happening but they are definitely ready to question their ideas of you know gender Norms there idea of what is gender what is sexuality so to present that safe Space is really important uh rather than just bashing and saying oh it's an urban and it is concept so just don't think about because that is so normal and also when we talk about I think um Amalia you said something about that uh in 2018 uh it was decriminalized being uh gay or rather engaging in uh homosexual uh acts uh but what has that done for us what has that done for us that has uh you know in our everyday lives it's just on paper says that okay it's you we are okay with you being gay but now that we want equal rights we want to be you know to be able to get married and everything then the question comes that okay we're okay for you to be gay but we can't allow you to get married which just means it just shows that you are really not okay with us being gay and I mean that's not even an issue because you can be okay or not okay with something but it becomes an issue when you openly are ready to hinge on someone else's rights and say okay oh don't do this and don't do that that becomes an issue and and uh I think also in a law um something that we I think we spoke about earlier was uh gatekeeping because according to law it is okay uh if uh male and a female if a married male and a female uh after getting married like after registering their married and everything one of them realize that okay they don't align with their you know gender and they want to go through or they I then start identifying as transgender and that one paper says that that still doesn't invalidate their marriage it doesn't invalidate uh them being one unit on legal matters but you have a problem with these the same kind of people entering into a legal document and saying okay now we want to become a one one unit or we want to get married I think it just shows so much uh I wouldn't I mean definitely hate but also so much Prejudice and homophobia that uh we are okay as long as until you don't openly you know exactly yeah like don't don't talk about it and isn't that with everything uh with every other thing in our culture that oh don't uh get out of the house wearing these clothes but if you're out with your friends you're in a confined space do what you want but look people shouldn't see it and people shouldn't say like oh what are your uh kids doing that sort of thing and this is being promoted by the state this being promoted by the government uh which is supposed to help us stay happy and safe in our own existences that just doesn't sit right with me yeah fantastic point on that on the double standards really I mean at at the end of the day it's the same thing uh if you know if it ends up as a marriage between uh CIS man or a CIS woman and a transgender person why can't they enter into it in the first place it's a hypocrisy or a double standard or the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing it's yeah like you said there is a there's a problem with uh the Optics of things here uh and not just the reality of things there is a denial also at play it seems like so uh you know where where do things stand today uh as far as you understand uh I think the Judgment was served by the Supreme Court uh if I'm not wrong uh they have and and I understand that there is even within the community there isn't a complete um I think embracing of the timing or like the process through which This was um this was these petitions were filed uh I believe there wasn't a sufficient consultation within the community uh to uh you know to to bring out these points in court uh and so you know there are some some aspects of reflection as well and there are some things that we have to learn from and keep fighting the good fight uh so let's in in that context of you know where we stand with uh with the with the debate in the in the Supreme Court and the fact that our laws are not looking to undergo a change anytime soon uh there are still things that workplaces can maybe try and adapt right in terms of recognizing uh Partners uh in as as spouses uh making sure they get the benefits as the same as a married couple uh would you like to speak on that foreign was thinking that even if uh legally law is a reflection of the society and uh a lot of times when change happens within the society the law also like uh sees the change that it wants to see that the society wants to see and the society does not comprise of only certain people it comprises of everybody and every voice needs to be heard so when we are talking about every voice being heard we have a very strong push in the uh since 1991 the economic growth we have a lot of companies in India we have the private sector is booming in its influence to the society at large so if we start making the change happen like uh instead of having a spouse policy at your workplace a partner policy where any partner that you are with at that point you should be able to like identify otherwise as a queer person you often feel like invalidated that like you know everyone else's partners are getting validated at workplace but you can't even talk about your relationship in the first place so when there is a policy like that automatically queer people will feel safe to come out and tell that okay I have a partner and we are queer you know and also like other policies around the inclusion of trans people and creating more space for uh queer and trans individuals to be visible at workplace and that space doesn't mean that you have to do like certain infrastructure changes and do a lot of math around it to be honest it can just come from the space that you are hiring people irrespective of who they are and seeing them beyond their queerness at workplace and understanding how to create a space with any special need that they may have uh a lot of times I've heard this issue that companies have that okay we can't hire trans people because we don't have gender neutral washroom yet so just it's okay to uh not have infrastructure at that point but maybe that trans person does not need a gender neutral washroom maybe they're okay going to the women's washroom or the men who are you just tell them that like you know all washrooms are uh accessible to you whichever uh is gender gender affirming to you whichever works for you please use it I mean do not have it and I'm sure that the person from Community will be okay to okay with the lack of washroom rather than lack of jobs you know so such where we come from like we are we have to create that visibility and uh like having insurance policies that we have as company should also extend to your to your spouses or like partner and uh I mean I know actually personally couples who have gotten married abroad and they come to India and they're just friends and it's just a third that like you know they are actually Partners they are married they're legal in some country but not here and it's just funny when we look at it from that lens yeah so if I may add I'm not language matters so much especially in workplace right um when we talk about you know inclusive workplaces but when you don't have the language I understand that uh getting access to that language and understanding language is a process and can and it's also about resources and everything but when people in top positions or when organizations that have the resources still deny to use an inclusive language uh that really puts queer people in a spot or rather it really puts them in a space where they are not sure how they're supposed to you know uh just be around in the space because even though on paper they might say oh this is a safe spin but if you don't practice it you don't use uh the correct language or you don't uh in practice say that okay you can do this and you can do that and we are creating the safe space for you that really impacts not just our work capacity but also our mental health because if we are not safe to be ourselves and present our you know original ideas then we I mean our work is going to be impacted and yeah I mean language is such a big thing and especially with Posh laws uh the way it's been formulated uh is I mean it's not very inclusive but organizations that are working on children organizations that are working on uh that are working with uh young people uh young people irrespective of men women uh transgenders I think we really have to be conscious about uh what we are saying and how we are saying it and how are we creating space uh not just saying it on paper that oh you can come work with us and this is a safe space but actively pushing them out of important meetings actively you know speaking over them or misgendering them this really affects and impacts people's work and mental health is also something that a lot of people are doing yes yes uh I have a question around the general neutral policy is it the right time or should I keep it for the last uh would you mind if we talk in the end all right sure please do hold on to your question we'd love to hear from you sure uh thank you so uh just to add I think to what you're saying that uh you know the companies have to start somewhere they can't have a chicken and egg situation that uh you know because we don't have queer people we don't need to have uh sensitization done now because you know people are not sensitized so we can't risk hiring them and you know making them feel excluded so it's just you can't keep going around in a circle like uh like when actually said I'm sure they would prefer to have prefer not having a specific bathroom rather than not having a job in hand at all and so start somewhere and ask the people what they want it's not so difficult listening I think is more important here I think uh I as as an ally I try to do I mean I try to learn and I try to stay engaged uh but I know I'm I I might make mistakes I know that I might be I might hurt somebody with you know maybe the perspective that I come from but I think listening is uh is key here and of course trying to learn from uh what you see and what you hear around you uh we're going to uh talk a little bit about the other aspect of today's discussion and that's why I kind of uh you know cut our guests our participant a little short uh the other you know subject that we wanted to address in today's discussion was horizontal reservation now when we uh when we spoke about this topic uh for the session I had no idea what this these terms meant uh but I read I read a little bit about it I met the panelists in a pre-panel discussion and I realized I mean I was I was feeling ashamed that I I did not know uh what what the term for this was which was something that was uh that is so critical in in understanding social justice in understanding constitutional justice as well uh here just trying to kind of I think I gave a kind of a definition to it in the beginning uh it is a idea that everyone's identity is multifaceted and some folks some some people among us uh actually exist at multiple intersections of marginalization uh so adult woman for example is also marginalized due to her gender as well as due to her caste right you can I think you can understand so if you were talking about uh getting a dalit woman a job uh does she have to be seen only as a dalit or does she have to be seen only as a woman or is it not fairer to understand her position and understand her exclusion in society because of the fact that she has both these identities she doesn't get to discard either identity and so the what she's facing in society because of those identities has to be respected and given its due in terms of the the support the Constitutional support as well as the social support uh this has become a point of action and discussion uh among the transgender Community uh we were so wishing uh we could have a kanmani here to talk to us about their work in this space and share their knowledge uh really uh on what has been happening in this regard but uh in their absence uh you know I would invite my panelists here uh to share you know their understand what is their perspective on horizontal reservation uh just let let's consider uh as I'm a Noob here so just how does it differ from let's say a vertical uh reservation and what is vertical reservation and uh you can also share I think uh M Knox and Company had a long conversation about this uh recently and uh we would love to hear it in kanmani's words through M Knox yeah I'll try to do justice to the elaborate uh way that kanmani speaks I cannot encapsulate on what they say but um definitely uh horizontal reservation and vertical reservation are two kinds of reservation if I'm simply putting it horizontal reservation cuts through vertical reservation and provides you the intersectional rights to equality and it comes under Article 15 3 of The Constitution of India and uh vertical reservation comes under 16 uh one I think uh I'm not sure at this point let me just uh cross check as well 16a so article 16 a of constitution talks about vertical uh reservation in which uh we give specific reservation benefit to a specific class like SP St or like OBC so we do provide and when we talk about 15 3 15 3 talks about a reservation that is equivalent for uh women transgender people people with disabilities Etc now what does this do is that uh when we talk about uh reservation for uh trans people it is uh if we only create vertical reservation what will happen is that trans people will be fighting with each other to get that one seat instead of this uh we need to think about the intersectionality within the transgender identity and umbrella right so if we are providing horizontal reservation a person who has probably awailed uh say a dalip trans person who has probably available trying to Avail a reservation as a dalit person will also be able to Avail that benefit through uh their transgender identity and multiple identities get considered otherwise we do not have that kind of representation that we would wish to aim for or get uh and when it comes to me as a transgender non-binary person who is um educated I have done my LLB I have done my llm I uh I'm working in a company I got access to practice as a litigation lawyer but how did I get all of this access because I did not identify openly as trans it's because I did not identify or register myself as a transgender student it is because of my savarna identity and my concealing of the transgender identity that I could get through this education and this is also something that karmani speaks about that I had to lie my way through college to get that one LLB degree right so that is uh where uh horizontal representation matters that we do not have to lie about our identities and even people who are probably uh say uh from not a very marginalized caste background should uh would also probably get some benefit out of horizontal representation as their trance or uh stunts or like non whatever identity queer identity that they possess at that point and uh that is where I feel like the equality setting so um having said that um I would like to elaborate on the dialogue or that kanmani was set in uh in the words of kanmani let me pull it up actually I I can't like share screen but I can definitely talk about what kanmani had said kanmani was talking about policies we need policies we need hostile accommodation we need peas and Mark concessions and yes horizontal different representations and uh this basically in education system when horizontal representation will allow for more trans inclusion and will allow for more people who are identifying as trans to access that kind of education uh even coming from marginalized backgrounds we will automatically have more inclusive uh Workforce and one tip that I want to leave for companies is that when somebody is coming from a marginalized Community do not put them on a pedestal but at the same time think about it that the access and resources that they have had was much less than the person that is working for you right now maybe uh the uh this savarna man like maybe my cousin who is a CIS Savannah man would have access to Ivy League education or like you know National level education from nits nlus iits and IIM right so do do we have that kind of access for transgender people to exist my sibling joined an nit but they are trans and they could not survive a institution that is so gendered and so um binary in the way with which they operate that this person had to drop out and for me to get the degree as a non-binary person I was like okay I'll just lie my way through college and not tell anybody about this so that I get that degree and I get out what free but this whole height and conceal will stop if we stop pedestalizing trans people and queer people and provide them with the training and support that they need and one more small thing that a lot of companies are adopting these days is uh including uh inclusion through job descriptions so one uh inclusion that is really helping is that uh get rid of these uh professional qualification requirements if the skill is present within the person so maybe I have studied four years in an engineering college but I could not get that degree because I uh am coming from a marginalized community and I could not uh get that official paper towards the end of it but I will possess the same knowledge through my experience and through my studies uh that a person who has that degree will so uh why do we have this requirement that a master's qualified or a bachelor qualified person can only do the job and moreover skills that can be learned via our training I feel like that should also be provided that okay take up the job anywhere there is a learning curve to every job all that matters is the attitude of the person and the will to work and as long as they possess that I think that that should be enough for you to qualify for a job that you are applying for and I know so many educated trans people currently who are in my friend a list looking for jobs and literally not getting anything for like six months seven months of looking they're just like okay we need one inclusive space of work we need one job you know and it is so difficult that most of them are just like succumbing to freelance and that industry has its own issues and this is just the organized sector I'm talking about if we reach two unorganized sector and trans people who are coming from more marginalized communities their situation is really really horrible like uh there are people begging after doing Ma out there and there are uh people uh succumbing to sex work as a means for living because there is no other way to earn money because you're not getting those jobs you don't have family support you don't have generational wealth that is supporting Your Existence in this world so how do we find that space and balance for such people to exist within our work forces so it's I think time that we need to bring that change it it was time since NASA judgment was passed so many years ago it was time when the transgender protection act came in and uh it was time when Constitution declared equality irrespective of gender sex caste and uh we in Independent India cannot still be performing only on the basis of what are the most privileged people think and if we are equating it to the West like uh it's our because it is a favorite task for a lot of people to equate Indian politics with the west and say that oh my God this is all Western culture it is not but that's a different debate for a different time but if we are equating it with the West it means that you're only letting this white heterosexual men make your policies and work on it and your entire job course just consists of white people and uh this kind of whitewashing that has happened in the west is what is being reflected in our uh culture at this point and it is affecting our rich Indian Heritage of diversity and having this uh we speak 26 different 27 different languages and more dialects which are not classified as languages when we can accept so many languages we can also accept so many people the question so I think uh Shazia uh is there anything you want to add something I think yeah I think brilliant really covered everything and I'm I've been I'm really sad that kanmani couldn't be here but I'm also very happy that it knocks really brought down her voice as well and it's amazing and I think for me I think for me horizontal reservation also means that it's a getaway because it's it's it is a getaway you know because when we say each person holds multiple identities it also means we are being oppressed through multiple multiple identities and from multiple spaces which also includes uh families and religion religious people and uh the area you live in and that sort of thing you know because I mean language itself is a debate in India where we talk about is Hindi is going to be a national language is it not uh can we not speak what I mean the language is best for us and everything so I think when as a as a Muslim person if I am being as a Muslim woman if I think you know denied my right to education or denied uh my right to equal job opportunities uh then I can't just say that okay because I am being uh you know I'm a Muslim person then okay maybe I can go and work in a Muslim organization that doesn't discriminate against Muslim people but I'm also uh no I am also a gender non-conformist so I'm also someone who is a very staunch queer alive so I will receive flat from a Muslim organizations as well so what horizontal reservation is it it removes those layers of preparation one by one for me and it just it it doesn't give a blanket statement it doesn't give a blanket cover for everyone it really looks into the realities and the layers of people that come in and that really scares people because then not everyone I mean not only one section of the society will have the all the rights and privileges so yeah horizontal resolution is really a way to bring equity and equality in workplaces and Educational Systems amazing so any uh uh any comments on where we are right now with horizontal reservation um in terms of uh there is a movement to bring it in within education and public employment but as a in the private view don't wait for everything all the settings and situ you know the the framework to be perfect uh it's it's it's it's okay to to try and fail the point is to understand better to listen better to include uh start somewhere I think uh this is a great time to open up the the room to questions I have kept Mr Shankar waiting I think from the beginning of the session so I'm sorry about that from Mr Shankar but please uh do share what were you wanting to ask I am I just wanted to understand one thing I don't know I'm not I've been like a Layman I've been following what is there in the newspapers I don't follow much of TV see we are all trying to work on initially on the concept of marriage marriage personally look at it is so religion bound you know each religion each thing is so religion bound so instead of pursuing it and linking to our religious values which is perhaps what is the biggest stumbling block out here I somehow felt that you know reclassifying it as like a certification for two people to stay together or whatever you know uh legal identity in terms of laws should just be that two people staying together hence they have their own rights you know as two people together as soon as they bring the marriage in it brings out the religious sentiment which is very very strong and actually if you look at it uh that's something which I feel personal is avoidable because let's not bring religion into the whole thing and make it so complicated that's my first observation I don't know why if we are not talking about something like a certificate for two people to stay together and hence having some kind of Rights attached to that second thing I think is that there's so much disparity already there people having multiple Vibes or multiple relationships kids not born out of not born out of wedlocks but out of other relationships there is a lot of underprivileged people out there you know so I think the law should look at all of them in totality at an individual level rather than cliching them as a lgbtq issue or it is this you know so I think each individual has to be respected for what they are you know what this stands for rather than being put them into a particular category like you said horizontal it sounds so nice but again you're putting it in them into classification he's a dalit one or and something and something I think we should give the individual the highest possible respect regards have compassion still The Compassion doesn't come in I don't anything will work at an individual level so that was a Viewpoint which I thought I will just put across and try to understand is there some work happening in this direction because all this is together the way I look at but one is classifying it as a certificate for people to be together rather than as a marriage and then evolving the rights seconds looking at all these people not defined by the law as a separate basket all together you know that's what my basically thing was is there any work Happening Here I'm trying to Encompass uh a statement into a question um so I think identities uh one thing I have learned from living in different places as a queer person and sometimes as just a lawyer who is just me so I think identities are important but I think identities are going Beyond identities is also important and from what I can uh say is that like sometimes it is uh like I really hear you when you say that we have to go beyond these identities and three people as people but uh to reach there I hope we reach there one day but for that we need to also understand that at this point assertion of the identity should be treated as a step to achieve that equality and that Equity that we are aiming for to reach a space where we are so utopian that everybody is uh feeling that equality and uh in the words of maybe amartya sen uh sane had said development is freedom so every person when they feel free is Vanessa freedom from barriers of poverty identity marginalization will happen definitely when we take it step by step and create that Equity at uh ground level from a bottom bottom up approach so I hope that uh makes sense it does understand and as for the certificate is concerned either something like this in and will is people talking about it or just it's just marriage I um I didn't quite catch that again Amelia can you elaborate on it sure I think I think my from my understanding uh why is marriage linked with uh as I mean given its uh validation through a religious ceremony uh why aren't we talking about marriage as something that is given through like a certificate for me that someone can yeah exist in the special Marriage Act does allow you to just register your marriage and get like especially it is made for people who are doing intercast interreligious marriages but it also helps people to get that registration as a married person and not uh get not provide religious proof to show that you are getting married the procedure is that two people register uh and if there is no objection from anybody for a month then you can be pronounced as married and foreign it is not gender neutral it is only for a man and a woman to do that at this point but we hope that it is uh gender neutral in future and it's no longer called a special marriage it's just called marriage yeah Anuradha uh yeah thank you uh Bunches of time um my question was around the Posh uh act you know I can see we have panelists who are Posh trainers and Posh Consultants so essentially the ACT says that the complainant has to be an agreed woman uh perpetrator could be anybody and with regards to uh you know reference to gender neutral policy being adopted by many organizations today how do we operationalize this so that you know we can uh you know the ethos of inclusiveness is is there at the same time does the Posh committee need a different kind of training to deal with such cases there could be nuances you know uh or does it have to just get shoved under a different grievance retraceal cell how are organizations dealing with this from our experience uh it has been that we do uh make the gender neutral Posh Act inclusive for all genders uh we call them an aggrieved person instead of a woman and the language around the policy also changes to include all gender and uh we do mention that only for women and trans women the Bosch Act is valid uh but uh we'll follow the same procedure and the process of inquiry shall remain the same for uh any kind of case that is coming by an aggrieved person who is not a woman or a child woman who do not identify as a woman so it can come uh under the same policy same process will be used but definitely it is uh it will be considered a misconduct policy that has been taken up by the company and the powers that porschach provides to the IC is the not something that is beyond the ability of a company to inherit for uh Beyond women like if you are making the policies under neutral then you do have the same powers that the course you you can still uh pass the same order for a person who is not a woman as well and the annual returns uh how do how is that being dealt with so this is this is a change you would make at the policy level sorry uh when actually this is I think uh now because uh the annual return uh is still pertaining to the uh you know reporting that's required under the law whereas uh if you are talking about the gender neutrality at the policy level you don't need to put the cases by persons other than you know women and trans women in your annual reports sensitivity like such as outing someone without their consent you know you're saying that person is trans or like you know gossiping about their body or just uh misgendering them purposely so there are things like that where like a person who has not faced this kind of gender dysphoria or a crisis of identity like that would even understand or empathize with uh it's not necessary I mean it's not that nobody understands but it is important to give that trading and sensitization uh to help understand the the ways in which we can be hurting and uh traumatizing people from the community sure thank you you're welcome great questions everyone any more I think there's been some nice conversations on the chat as well swapnel yes from my question is that the government should make a separate sale for Trans people or uh give some special department for that in what regard uh do you mean for the Grievances or to ensure their rights for both ignorances and rights okay um I can take that question if it's okay please so [Music] um I think this is where we talk about horizontalness of uh representation and reservation so horizontal representation is even bigger than horizontal reservation and it will require one more two more hours for us to speak but um I think that government should include trans people in the decision-making process it's for everything it doesn't have to be that a trans person only talks about trans right like right now I'm a lawyer who's a post uncertain I talk about Dei I talk about many things but yeah definitely I would love to be a part of a discussion where we are talking about transplants and not just me I feel like there are a lot of uh trans people who are way more educated and way more aware about things than I am so I think that uh government should create more visibility more space for Trans people to co-exist within the system because uh it's not a lack of man core Workforce but uh see I'm also using words like man forms which is very like non-inclusive but uh I think it is about having trans people and definitely if there is a entire governing body that is helping trans people uh achieve what they want and it is made by the trans people for the trans people then there is nothing better than that um yeah uh so so in in this case if they have a special department so it is easy to convey there uh before the government trans people can give the equality and when their disputes comes and they can stand before the courts also and because currently uh they are also getting the place in the judges place also uh I think so uh so it would be the good for them to be a separate sale in the government so they can also keep their View and put their rights uh before the government right now yeah I hope they're also having a separate cell and they're also included in the main conversations where we are talking about everything that would be definitely an ideal situation to us yes thank you all right uh so I'm very conscious of the time and uh you know if anybody has any thoughts to share maybe we could do it uh after we close today's session uh but you know I've uh uh you know we've got our panelists also uh for a limited time uh really really appreciate the conversation today thank you both Shazia and um and uh for all our participants as well thank you for listening so patiently and thank you for being so engaged uh this was great thank you thank you for the opportunity yeah and also wearing the spine all over the place I'm not yeah let's not apologize for anything yeah okay yeah all right thanks all let's close the session thank you bye thank you

Channel: Kelp HR

Views: 90

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Id: fK4F6loQHlA

Length: 67min 36sec (4056 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 23 2023