What's up people, how you guys doing? If you are looking for the Rich Roll Podcast, good news, you found it. My guest today is Maggie Q. Maggie is an actress. You've seen her. You know her from "Mission Impossible III." "Live Free or Die Hard." "Divergent" movies. "Designated Survivor" all kinds of stuff. She's also a plant-based animal rights activist. She's an environmentalist, an ocean preservation advocate, a fashion designer, an entrepreneur, many, many things, but mostly just an overall super bad-ass cool human being. This is an awesome talk. We definitely vibed. She brought her dog Romeo, which was great. She dropped some epic Tom Cruise stories and by the end, and for reasons I think you'll soon discover, everybody here at the studio basically just fell in love with her. Hopefully you will too. So let's do it. This is me, and Maggie Q doing the thing. It's super nice to meet you. I'm surprised that we haven't met before. Me too.
We have so many friends in common, from the whole vegan community, animal rights community. Well, and also you were just really like the first that I was aware of, that was doing what you were doing on that level. It was such a pioneering move. So, yeah, I'm really surprised. Well, I think we've probably been at some of the same- Probably yeah (chuckles)-
Sort of benefits- Yeah, all the fundraisers (laughs). Situations, (laughs) you know? I'm so boring like that's me going out, going to a fundraiser. I'm just intimidated by everyone. I sit in the back and I leave early. I try to sit in the back and leave early, but they always want me to like present something. Well you've been in it much longer than I have. It's been like 20 years or something like that at this point, right?
It really has, yeah. I remember you were part of "Earthlings". We're both friends with Shaun. I remember when that movie came out and I was pretty new to the whole thing. Really?
And I was at some... I think it was in Woodland Hills, or like at Pierce College. There was some janky like veg-fest, that no one went to-
Of course (laughs). Or whatever.
No one went to (laughs). There was like 10 people there. And Shaun was like selling DVDs out of the back of his car. And that was when I was like, (indistinct) yeah. And of course we didn't have hard cases. And we watched it, and that movie has gone on to become quite a phenomenon. Yeah, before it's time, as we were talking about earlier, I think that it was really tough for people to take. And now with the internet, you know, they're images and videos, and things you can access all the time now. But at that time, I just think, I don't know. I always said to Shaun, it's not that I think that people don't care. I think they don't know. And I think once they know, it's hard to not care. And that was the point of that documentary. Right. Well, cognitive bias still kicks in. I mean, that movie is... Earthlings it's sort of like, oh, and you got to like turn away.
I do too. Cause it's so intense-
Me too- But then you're like, you turn back and then you have to turn away again. But you can't forget it.
No. And it's stood the test of time and it's still like kind of the touchdown film for introducing people, to just how dark and gnarly the whole thing is. You're so right, it is so dark and gnarly. And when you know, witnessing, Shaun is a director, producer, writer, sort of sit essentially in a garage, you know, for months and months and months on end, you know with 400 hours of factory farm footage and going now that moment, like that cow, that act of cruelty, that's gonna matter to someone, right? Cause it's all awful. But I think one of the things that people don't realize, is that these filmmakers, and the people who are actually making the sacrifice to face this head-on, and full on, they're really brave people. They're people that are incredibly special and they are able to face things in a way where, even for myself, I mean I have pretty thick skin when it comes to certain things. And I think as I've gotten older, I'm less and less capable of witnessing any of this stuff. And back in the day I was a little more capable. Someone like Shaun, who's a gentle soul. He can sit there and watch all that cruelty for hours and hours, hours, and pick out that moment that's gonna affect someone and change their life. And that takes, it requires a very, very special person. Yeah, it is a unique type of individual, has that kind of sensitivity-
100%. Out of the womb basically. I mean like the animal thing for you was from the get-go. Right?
It really was. So there's something I have this theory. I remember talking to Gene Baur about this. Like I just think that Gene, like people like Gene come out different, and they're like super sensitive, to the way the world operates.
I agree. And it leads them down this certain path, but not everyone's wired that way. 'Cause like I came at, you know, I've been vegan plant-based for 14 years now, but animal rights, wasn't my entry point. Like that's become really important to me but that wasn't initially.
It was health. Yeah, it was more of a health thing. And it was like a vanity thing. If I'm being honest, there was a selfishness to it, that now, you know, I've become much more attuned, and sensitive, and passionate, about the other things but I'm not wired that way. The way like you are, or Gene, or Shaun, or Joaquin, or these other people, that just carry that sensitivity which probably makes their life experience very painful. It is well, an empath's path is it is really painful. I mean, you nailed it. That's exactly it, cause you're sort of like you can't shut off that feeling. And I remember like being a kid and sort of witnessing just cruelty in general, whether it was to another adult, or a child, or an animal. And I remember feeling a lot of pain over that, and it didn't have to be my own pain. I hated seeing people in pain, a life in pain. Let's put it that way, because the animals included obviously were a big thing. But I did witness a lot of that cruelty as a kid. And I remember when it came through the animals, it was especially unfair because they had no choice. They couldn't get away. They couldn't call for help. There's no nine one one, you know for a dog that's getting beaten up, or tied outside, or you know, hurt in any way, or a cat, or whatever it is. Like they don't have the resource, you know, to do that. And so it does take us. It does take an outside source to say, I don't think that's right. That doesn't seem right to me. So Earthlings was like 2005, right? Yeah. So you couldn't have been, back from Hong Kong very long before that took place. Like how did that come together? You know, Shaun pioneered, obviously everything, Shaun was already on it, collecting footage, doing everything he was doing. And you know, when I got back, when I moved back from Asia to the States, it was like, I was changed by actually by PETA, you know, PETA was the group, and as you know PETA is not a shy group, (laughs). Yeah, not quite.
No, not quite I wouldn't use that word. But PETA as it were, was opening, an Asian office at the time. And so I didn't even know they had a presence in Asia. I mean, PETA, they're very famous. So you know about what they do at New York fashion week, and all this sort of stuff. And it's all very sensationalized, and kind of like, you know, this sort of fun thing, cultural thing that people make fun of. But in Asia, there really was no representation for the animals. I mean, at that time it was sort of like, animals Asia, who's still in business. And there have been around for about 30 years, but other than them, like these bigger more organized groups, like hadn't come in. So they come in to open this office and that's what changed me. So I was already changed when I was living in Asia because I was sort of like this self-professed animal lover, but was still doing all the things that were cruel and unacceptable. And so that's why, as we were talking earlier it's very easy to like meet people, where they are and have compassion. People don't get it, because I was that person. I can't, you know what I mean? I wasn't born conscious, I was born empathic. I was born sensitive. But I wasn't born like understanding it from a larger perspective and going, oh, okay, well, my action has a chain reaction and this is what's happening in that chain. So I was changed already. And then when I came over, and met Shaun, it was just like that perfect timing, of like, I was just new, and kind of ripe in this. I'd come from a region where animal rights, and cruelty, and the voice of animals is non-existent. And so I was really on fire, to like get this message out. And I think that the easiest, if you can call it that, region in the world to do that, is the West. If you're gonna start with anywhere. Yeah, I can't imagine the temperature in Asia, around animal rights is anything remotely similar to what it is here. Not even. I mean the spotlight, the discussion, I mean they're still coming to it, and we're getting there because of this younger generation. I mean I think we're getting there, because of what we were talking about earlier, about kids changing their parents. And kids having a different kind of compassion than their parents did. But, you know, I'm the daughter of an immigrant mother, my mother, like, fled from a war-torn country, and came to the United States, and like, her emo was not like, oh, how are the dogs feeling? (laughs) You know, I haven't gotten here to save some cats Let me hear what my daughter has to say about the world. Exactly. I remember once complaining, about like the toothpaste or something. It was too mint or too strong. It was like some cheap toothpaste. And obviously everything we bought was on sale and I didn't grow up with money, and I complained about the toothpaste and she was just like, oh really? Oh really? The toothpaste that we can afford is not good enough for you. And that toothpaste went away fast. She was like, you know what? You can get a job, buy your own toothpaste. (Rich and Maggie laugh) So your mom's Vietnamese, and your dad was deployed to Vietnam. That's right, yeah, they met in the way. So they met there, wow. But you were born in Hawaii? I was born in Hawaii. I have a brother and sister who were born there, and then they were married, they came here, and then they had three more kids, of which I'm the youngest of five. Right.
Yeah. So grew up in Oahu? Born and raised, yep. Yeah. Oahu girl.
Oahu girl, yeah. How was that like? Well, you know, I mean, it's... You're connection to nature is, and your upbringing is sort of one in the same, right? So there's no separation between you, and like respect for all that we have in Hawaiian, and you lived in Hawaii. So you understand this, right? It's sort of like, we don't litter, we don't do this. We don't do that. I mean, we don't harm the environment. And we're trying. I mean, there are people, there are always people who do what they do. But we really do sort of live this profound connection to the world around us. And that's a very Island mentality. And so I think that's what gave me my connection to the oceans in a very real way. It was like, I remember just having this respect for the ocean that was so different than people that I'd met, you know who grew up on the mainland and what not. Because that was a world that was undiscovered, we really know very little about, to be honest. I mean, we thing we know a lot, and we know nothing about the ocean. And yet, somehow we feel that the ocean is at our disposal. And I remember as a kid thinking, no, no, the respect that I had for it was almost like a fear that you have for someone you respect, you know, like a superior. I kinda felt like the ocean was my superior. And I had this like, you know, this respect that came from a place of like almost fear, because it's such an unknown. And yet it provides so much for us. We take, and we don't know much. There is a weird energy in Hawaii. Like you can feel it. There's a darkness.
Oh yeah. And there's a lightness. There's a heaviness. Like I find myself, I was there in January for a month on the big Island and- Oh, I was there the whole of December, funny. Oh were you?
Yeah. On the big Island? Oh you were cool.
Yeah. You definitely have this... there's a sense of reverence, but also like, like, oh, like I'm very conscious of making sure that I put away my garbage in the right way- 100% That I don't like move any of the rocks. And it's like, I don't wanna like upset (indistinct). Yeah, exactly, (laughs)
There's that whiplash. You don't want her to brake.
Yeah on the island, and I noticed that living in Kauai was... I had Laird Hamilton here not too long ago, and we were talking about that. Like, you can feel, there's like karma comes faster in Hawaii, I feel like, you know-
That's funny. There's a checks and balance.
I don't know what that is, but there's a sensibility around that. Well, It's a deeply spiritual place, you know, number one, and in any time you have a connection or a closeness to native culture, you're gonna feel that. I mean, I even feel it like when I'm on native land, like in Arizona, or in different places in the US. Like there's just a different spiritual penetration and awareness in everything you do. And so there's a checks an balance is different. It's almost like if you felt that angels, or guides or something were closer to you, and you if you felt that they were watching you. Yeah, there is that sense of being watched- Yes absolutely. And there's also-
It's ancestral it really is. Me being like a white dude, like, it's very different, I've spent enough time in Hawaii. Like I know what it's like to be in Hawaii, not at the resort, you know? Like to be in where people-
Real people live. Have been living for generations, like native inhabitants and stuff like that. And so there's also, you know a palpable sense of like, you're a visitor here. Like this is not your place. Oh we make people feel like that though, (laughs). Yes, for sure, right? Like, you better tread lightly dude. Or you're gonna get into trouble, and it's gonna go South quick on you. Yeah, I mean Hawaii is the only one I know of where like white is not my... you know, I mean the rest of the United States, and I mean, the first time I experienced somebody that was like, kinda treated me differently was like when I lived in Japan, and it was like a bunch of white girls from Texas, and they thought I was Mexican. At which, if I was what's the problem with that. And so they started, they wouldn't talk to me, and it was this very strange thing of like, I just never experienced that. Because in Hawaii as you know, I mean everyone's mixed race and there's really no... And if you're white, you have to tread lightly. And if you're not, you know, it's a different existence. On Kauai is different, because it's so cosmopolitan comparatively to the rest of the islands.
It is a bigger city. And it's very much like a Japanese culture. 100% it is, yeah. We'll be back in a sec, but first, if you enjoy this podcast, and I hope you're enjoying it. Then something tells me, I think you'll really dig, my latest book, Voicing Change featuring excerpts from, poignant essays by, and glorious photography of, some 50 of my favorite guests over the last eight plus years of doing this thing, this podcast. It's a gorgeous, artful, compendium of the show. And copious wisdom shared there in, all wrapped in a hardcover coffee table form, that provides a great taste of what we do here at the RRP, and also serves as a beautiful keepsake, or gift, or primer for the arden fan. The book is only and exclusively available on our website. Sign copies are available and we're shipping globally, direct to any coffee table on planet earth. So to learn more, and snag your copy today, visit, RICHROLL.COM/VC. That's RICHROLL.COM/VC. All right, let's get back into it. You have a very, like unique, and interesting path. Like at 17, you end up going to Tokyo to model, right? Funnily enough, that you say that because when people ask me about that, I go, you know, it wasn't really that much different culturally from growing up in Hawaii, like all my... I would say 95% of my teachers growing up were Japanese. You know, so I'm just used to that sensibility, the food, the whole thing. But, obviously I was in a huge city, fast, expensive city, that was very foreign to me. How did that happen? Well, I was just a broke student. I mean, I was an athlete, my season was cross-country, and then swimming, and then track and field, and then, water polo here and there. And so that was my year. And I ended up sort of like, we were all swimmers my sisters and I, and one of them was a diver. But I think that it was decided for us, and then as I became an athlete and really got into it, my body and my skill dictated that I was actually a runner, and that really was what I excelled at. And then, it was distance running and started to get honed in, and honed in. And so that's where I got my scholarship from, was cross country. And I just, I couldn't do it. I was already living on my own. I was paying rent. I was working retail. I was trying to keep a scholarship to a private Catholic university that was- On Oahu?
On Oahu. That was expensive, and it wasn't a full scholarship. It was, 70%, something like that. So there was just really no way, I was gonna make those ends meet. Because, as you know as a college athlete, you're training in the morning before school, you're training after school. And then I had to have a job, and all the rest of it. And it was completely unsustainable. And at the I guess if you had like that support, or whatever it was and you didn't have to work, you could make it work, but I wasn't in that position. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's kinda how it happened. I had a girlfriend, beautiful friend, who said, you know I go to Tokyo in the summers, and I make a bunch of money and come back, and I'm like, wow, that sounds amazing (laughs). Yeah, right. But she was a legitimate model. So yeah, of course you go to Tokyo, and make money because you have a career, and experience, and you're an actual model. But she was such a good friend, and we're still friends today. And she felt really sorry for me. I think she was just sort of like, I dunno how this chick is gonna make it. I don't know how she's gonna sustain this lifestyle. And she got me a contract to go with her and I went with her and it was modeling in the nineties. It was indentured servitude. Yeah, I've heard stories, terrible stories about how- Oh awful.
Yeah, the indentured aspect of it is not good. Like most of the money is going towards... They're overcharging for all these things, and all the money that you make. Yeah, they charge you like $5,000 US, in the nineties for one room. In an apartment where there's three other rooms and you're like, this seems like a lot, (laughs). Yeah, is it still that way? That sounds horrible. I think it is still that way on some level, especially like overseas, but it's just sort of like even just the mental aspect of like we have this agency, that was just awful, and you'd walk in, and there was a whiteboard right next to the door, where they weighed you every Friday. And they would put your names up, and like you had all the categories, and so you could walk and you could see everyone's weight. So if somebody was gaining weight, you know immediately you go, someone's a few pounds heavier. But that's what it was intended to shame you, you know? And the only reason that I was like the benchmark, they were like, oh, Maggie. Everyone's gonna be like Maggie, cause she stays skinny. I'm like, that's cause I can't afford it, (laughs). That's crazy. So you're working and booking stuff, and you still can't feed yourself? I wasn't booking stuff, 'cause I wasn't... I sort of booked like one commercial at the end of my long stay there, and it was a big one. And that's how I paid them back. But if I didn't get that, I wouldn't have been able to leave because I wouldn't have been paid back yet. So your friend who, you know, so kindly introduces you to this world, didn't tell you this part of it. She did, well she also had the dark underbelly, but she also-
You can come to Tokyo, but we're gonna live in a basement, you know eat- (indistinct) yeah, pretty much. But she has always lived that sort of charmed life. So she, I think her experience was, she always worked and always kind of like was able to pay the bills, and she was popular and very beautiful and people loved her. And so, you know, I think her view on it was her experience. And so it was quite good. (Maggie laughs) And did you, was this like a summer thing, or did you stop out of college to do it? It was like a summer thing, yeah. And then it sort of like bled into the fall a little bit. I went back to start school, and I had made enough money to like pay them back as I said, but I didn't make enough money to like, make my ends meet back where I was. And so she says, well, you know, next step Taipei. And I'm like, what? No, I hate traveling. I hate being in these places, where I don't speak the language, and I don't know anyone, this is so impossible. And she's like, no, no, Maggie, they'll like you they're. Won't be like Tokyo where they didn't like you, (laughs) Cause in Tokyo what they wanted, the blonde hair, blue eye girl- Well no what happened in the summer, is that there's was influx of like Eastern European, like Russian, like every girl and their mother. I mean that literally they bring their mothers. Comes to Tokyo, and there's like this influx of like four to 5,000 girls, that will come during the summer. So there's just a lot, it's very competitive. But we were a handful of mixed girls. So if they wanted mixed race girls, they knew where we were. But the rest were like, you know, pretty white guys. So a lot of competition, and that was the big deal. So I went to Taiwan, and when I got to Taiwan, that was actually when this trend of like blonde hair and blue eyes, that's all they wanted. So I'd walk into a room and they were like, get out. Like we don't even want to see you. So it was like are you either famous, and Chinese, or you were blonde with blue eyes. And so that rejection and that part of my life where I went there and nobody wants to see me and I didn't work, became a very lucky actually strike for me, because it pushed me to Hong Kong. Right. So how long were you in Taipei for then? I was probably there for like a few months. And it was just bad. It was just sad. And then, speak Cantonese? In Taipei was Mandarin.
Mandarin- So, I'm not Chinese, so I didn't speak a word. I had no clue what was going on. No friends. I had no, I mean, I was so lost (laughs). Right. So this is not going well,
This is not going well. You're going straight too
(Maggie laughs) like, why don't you just go back to Hawaii? You're like I'm gonna go to Hong Kong now. I know, well, funnily enough, my friend was pissed off, same friend. She went to her agency and she said, I don't understand why Maggie's getting rejected on this level, like what's happening. And she said to her, she said, well, I'll tell you do you want to hear the truth? And she was like, yeah, I wanna help her. She said, the problem with Maggie is she's not cute, which is one thing we like in this market, and she's not beautiful. And that's another thing we like in this market. (Rich laughs)
They're like, she's neither. And so she falls between the cracks. And my friend was like, oh my God, how awful? And I ended up- It's such a terrible thing to say. Yeah, and she told me. And I was like I don't think I'm those things either. I hate this industry. It's so terrible. Drives girls to the brink of insanity. I don't wanna do this. I just want to go to school and like be an athlete. And like, that's what I wanted to do, but I just didn't have the money to do it. So I was like, they're not telling me, so I'm not heartbroken. I don't wanna be a model, it sucks, this is awful. Like, you know, I wouldn't recommend it. I know you have two daughters I don't recommend it (laughs)- And now next stop Hong Kong-
Our next stop Hong Kong. But funnily enough, like I get to Hong Kong, and I sort of like did use the word modeling very loosely. I mean, I did commercial work, things like that. And then within that year, at the time Jackie Chan, had a management company, where he was sort of looking for the next generation of action stars. Like that's what he was doing. And he knew that his name and his, you know, all the things would be a great sort of headline, to what he was doing. And he was, kind of training all these young boys, and like, I was like the girl and they took me on, and they trained me. His team trained me and I became this sort of like action- Right. So you just blew up in Asia and it's hard to imagine how big Jackie Chan was in Asia at that time, and probably still, right? Yeah. And in America, cause like he had already hit here and he was huge. So he'd become this global superstar. And then in his backyard, he wanted to create another business. And the business was training these young people and creating the new generation of action stars. And then just becoming more of a producer. And becoming more of a producer in that respect, and still starring in what he was doing. But not necessarily, you know we were starring in these smaller movies and he was still doing his big stuff (chuckles). So you kind of go to like action movie star university. Like you get trained in martial arts, and become this badass warrior for the screen. And I was a runner, okay? So you have to understand like people who aren't runners, like we're not flexible people. Like I couldn't touch my toes at the time, you know? And they're sort of looking at me and going, ah, you look strong and we think you are strong and we think we can make you into something, but jeez, like it's gonna take a while So what was that process like? Like what do they have you doing? Well, Jackie has a team of like 10, anywhere from like 10 to 15 people who are with him at all times. And this is his team of like martial artists. And these are the same people that fight with him in all the movies, right?
In all the movies. So, like when I watch Jackie's movies. I know every single person he's fighting. Because I know them all, right? Right, it's the same dudes (laughs) And people don't understand, like you can't just throw someone in a fight with Jackie Chan. He's too good. So you have to know him and be able to fight him. So basically like his team moves with him and every movie he's in, if there's a villain, like they have to plug in his guy. They're the only people who can find him. Wow. So what is the tradition? Like the martial arts tradition that they indoctrinate you- So those are the guys that train you, like his team. And they're specialist in every discipline. So he's got like the Kung Fu guy, the TaeKwonDo guy, the karate guy, like everybody is specialized. And so they sort of take you on and they, they break you. I mean they break, I don't know (laughs). So what's the pitch, they're like Maggie, okay, here's the upside opportunity you're gonna be in all these movies-
No, that conversation, never happens. So that's a very Western thing that you're... So everything you're saying makes sense in a logical world, and then you're in Asia and nothing makes sense. So they don't give you any foresight like where you're gonna head or what's gonna happen. It's basically like, here, let's break you first, see how good you are, and if you're actually good then we'll see where it goes kind of thing. And are they paying you, and supporting you, in the meantime? No, I mean, I was feeding myself through like commercials and things like that. So you got an agent or, I mean, how does it work? Like what's the parallel, or the disconnect between like the Hong Kong version of Hollywood and like Hollywood? Well, there's no unions, there's no agents. There's no publicists, none of that. None of what exists here, is there. I mean you have a manager, and that person handles absolutely everything you do. They're, like your life basically. But they don't specialize in all those things. So, you know, there's no protections. I mean, there was a time I was on set for like 30 hours and there was no, nobody said, okay we should probably go back and sleep now. And there was no one to call. There's no like union hotline- And you've been doing martial arts and justifying stunts- Right, and tired out of your mind, like really, truly is like a form of torture, where you're like the level of physicality is so high and yet you're just under-resourced in every way, you're tired, you're not getting the right food. You're not eating, the whole thing. So it's sort of like, the early days of Hollywood, where the actor was sort of employed by the studio system, you go here, and you're getting your pittance of a wage. 100%, I would say that, yes. And at least being with Jackie, I had some sort of protection against, I think it was a protection against a lot of, that studio, mafioso type of stuff that they do, in all parts of the world, but over there, especially, it's sort of like, I was his girl and that I was like someone he was bringing up, that he was raising in the business. So I wasn't to be messed with too much. You know what I mean? Like there was sort of a blanket of protection a little bit. So that helped me a lot. Right. So you survive all this and you end up, I mean you are under his wing, right? So this like blows you up into this massive star in Asia. Yeah. I was listening to the podcasts that you did with Justin Long.
Oh, yeah. And he was like, just expressing like how amazing it was to like discover like what a big deal you are in Asia. Well, we went to, cause we did die hard together, right? So we go to like, you know they sent us to different places and stuff. And so I go to a... You know we're doing this junket and then Bruce's somewhere, and then Justin and I were somewhere else and we walked, I think we were in Singapore, and they had like hubbed Singapore, as like all the Asian press had to come down there, 'cause we didn't have this kind of time. We had a premiere in Tokyo, and then went straight down to Singapore, and then we had to go to the World Premiere In Berlin. (chuckles) And I remember like we walked to this place, and he looks around and he's like, holy crap, all of the posters are you. Like, you know how you see the Die Hard poster, and you're like Bruce (indistinct) you know those small eyes, sort of thing that he does, the winky winky. And they were me. And he was like, oh, my God, like, what's happening? Like, how come he's not up here? I'm like, (murmurs), he's like, is he not big here. I'm like, he's huge here. And they're like, but he couldn't wrap his head around it. He thought it was the funniest. Right, yeah.
(Maggie laughs) And is it like, I'm trying to wrap my head around that experience being in Hong Kong, like is there the same, you know there's a premiere, and there's a red carpet, and there's paparazzi, and there's magazines. And like, how does that whole like kind of infrastructure around the film industry operate to like create stars and all of that? It's very unruly, I have to say, like there was a period of like two years before I actually left Hong Kong, and got my first film here in the US. I didn't wanna be in this industry anymore. To me, it wasn't something that was worth it, because the paparazzi issue was so bad, and the invasiveness it was so awful like to the point where, I mean, for me, like, I'm a woman who looks a certain way. And so in that region you get targeted for different things. So I had, been having trouble, you know, in the media, cause I had a relationship that ended and they were like, oh, it must be her fault. She must be evil. She must be that, all this sort of stuff. So they're like, don't go out, please don't go out. Just stay home and let this blow over. I'm like, oh whatever. So I'm at home and I have a friend call me and he says, hey, we're out on the water today, it's so beautiful. You gotta come out of the house. I was instructed not to leave my house. I'm not allowed to leave my house. My friend says Maggie, were on the boat in the middle of nowhere. Like, you know, please come out like, I mean please you're stressed, like just come. Like it's just us and we're just gonna hang out. So I sneak in a taxi and literally had to call the taxi into the parking garage. I laid down in the back seat, cause they're just sitting outside of my house. So I get to the thing, I evade them. I get into this little dinghy. I get to this boat. I see my couple of friends of mine that I know I'm so happy, it's sunny. I'm like, oh, this is so great. And then four days later, I'm walking by a newsstand and there's this magazine. And it says in Chinese, Maggie doesn't get out of bed for less than 200 million. (Rich laughs)
What in God's name? And then there's a picture of the boat, and there's these telephoto lenses. And they caught me on this boat. I don't know whose boat it was, it's a Western friend of mine from Boston. It's some big fancy boat.
Yeah, I guess the person who owned it, I didn't even know who he was. I guess I had passed him on the deck. I never met him in my life. Passed him on the deck, go say hi to my friends. And they got that photo of us passing each other. And then it was just this three months attack, attack. So, it's basically saying you're in a relationship with this person.
Yeah, no, 100%. That I was, or that I'm some kind of high class hooker you know sort of like is in this relationship. And I'm like, really? I take taxis everywhere, I mean, what lifestyle, is it that you're trying to prove that I live. That's intense. So this is what, like early 2000's? It was sort of, 2000. It was so gross, that I was just like, this is not worth it to me. I mean, I don't typically ever seek attention anyway. I'm really not that person, like even here, I'mma I do my work and I go home. I really am like that boring (laughs). Was that a big part of the impetus to leave and come back to the States? I kind of knew that somewhere, I was heading back this way because I couldn't take it anymore anyway. But I was in a complicated situation, because I got Mission Impossible. And I was going back to the States in 2005, but my best friend was dying at the time. She was very ill and she was living there. And so I just sort of had this thing where I got this break but then the person I love the most in this world, was not well. I had been taking care of her already for two years, and now I had to go and do this movie. And she was always this like oberweis, kind of sagey human being. And all right I got the film and I had to say goodbye to her to go to this movie. But I was like, I'm only gonna be gone X amount of months, and then we'll be back. We'll be back, and I'm gonna take care of you, and I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving you. And she looked at me and she was like, you're not coming back? And I was like, no, no, no, of course I'm coming back. And she was like, Maggie, you don't belong here. I don't want you back. You belong over there. You need to be doing the things, that you're meant to be doing, and it's not here. And it was a weird thing when she said that, because it hit me, and it scared me, that I'd come back and she wouldn't be there- Right, but what a beautiful gift. What a beautiful gift, truly and then I was on the movie- Did she pass when you were... On the movie.
Wow. And I knew. I knew she was going do that. I just knew it. I knew that she was gonna let go, while I was gone because I knew, that she knew I would have come back. She just did.
Wow. Yeah, and she didn't want that and told me as such and so. Yeah.
Yeah- But that also, gave you the ability to have that clean break. It did, and it was really funny because public perception versus what it is that you deal with. I couldn't go back to Hong Kong for years, 'cause I was in a lot of pain over that. And I couldn't even go back for her funeral. Like the schedule didn't allow me. I couldn't even go back and say goodbye. So it was, and it's not my movie, right? It's Tom Cruise's movie. Like I don't walk into the production office and go, hey, can you do me a huge favor? I'm number nine on the call sheet, you know. But in Asia, did the posters all have you on them instead of Tom cruise? No, they had all of us, (laughs). Well, there's so much here-
(indistinct) Tom cruise. First of all, it's absolutely bananas that the first American movie that you book is Mission Impossible, with Tom Cruise and J.J.Abrams. I mean, that's insane right?
Absolutely insane. And I wanna get to that, but first I wanna spend a couple of minutes on Jackie Chan still who's the Tom cruise of Asia, right? Like there's a lot of similarities. I mean, this guy is like a perfectionist bar none, right? I Have said that to everyone, who's asked me about it. I'm like, there's no one who works harder than Tom cruise or Jackie Chan, on different sides of the same work ethic. Same just tenacity, same leadership skills. I mean, they're very similar, in that respect. Right.
Yeah. So what did you learn? So I would imagine the bootcamp under Jackie and his team, like really sorted you out and made you prepare. Like it's crazy, like looking back in the rear view mirror that it all lined up like that, like had you not trained under Jackie, you wouldn't have been able to manage Tom cruise. I would imagine, (laughs) like that would have just been an energy blast A thousand percent correct. But also, I had a work ethic, I think that was just second to none. Like over there, there are no breaks. There are no compliments. There is no encouragement. It's like you either get the job done, or you don't, you know, you're completely out. And I was on sets where like, you know, I had three or four, different stunt women at the same time, because not one of them was skilled enough to cover me in different bases and- In Hong Kong, or on Mission Impossible? In Hong Kong.
In Hong Kong. That we're just getting screamed off set, and fired, left, right and center. I mean, these are professional stunt women where the director is yelling at them and saying, if you're not better than the actress, get off my set. And I mean, it's like that. I mean, it's, it's (indistinct), it's crazy. So the training prepared me, not just for the level of physicality that I would face when I got to the States, but also just the discipline, and the work ethic, to be able to just continue to push through until the job is done right. Right. And there's not a lot of people with that work ethic. Yeah. (chuckles) I mean, we all heard that, Tom cruise outburst of whatever movie he was on, where they're trying to shoot on COVID, and he got all pissed off because people weren't following protocols. And it's like, he's the producer, he's the star, he's trying to make sure the ship is moving and everybody has a job- He has every right. So I heard that and I was lucky for him. And also because I know him. I know how fair he is in the professional realm. Like I obviously, I don't know him outside of the professional realm, besides his like house-warming but like outside of that, I'm not like, you know what I mean. On that level, but as a professional, he's fair. You know, he comes to work and he's like, I want everything to work, and I wanna provide for (murmurs). He's a provider.
Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm sure if you did the math, I mean, he's responsible for, you know, (chuckles) a lot of what the industry makes. Of course, he sets the bar incredibly high, and then he outworks everybody else. And at the same time, it's hard to connect with it. You're like, is this guy a human being, or is he like from a different planet, right? Like, what is the experience, of actually working with that guy? You know, he... Okay, there's two things. One, he has an enthusiasm, like no one I've ever met in my life. Like it just seems almost it's so off the chain that it feels like, is this manufactured, or is this real? And you're like, I don't think it's real with this guy. How does he maintain that, (laughs). Well, when I go to the States, I didn't know any of the who ha around his new relationship like all that stuff in 2005. Like I just didn't, because I wasn't following it. And I was on the other side of the world. And so I got back and it was like, it was Kerry Russell who I did Mission with, where I was like, what's happening here? Like, who's the girl and then she's like, oh you don't know about Oprah on the couch jumping (murmurs) and I'm like, no, my God, what is this thing you're talking about? So we go to lunch, and she explains to me like, there's this new relationship? And he's like jumping all over couches and all that sort of stuff. And I was like, oh, well, maybe he's just excited. She's like, I don't know, Maggie. There's like speculation I'm like, oh, this is weird. And then, you know, as we got into, when we started working like that enthusiasm, later once I knew him, I was sort of like, I looked at the couch jumping thing with new eyes and I went, no, that's him. He does stuff like that all the time. Like, that's not over the top.
(Rich laughs) That's what he does. Like we're in Rome, and we're filming and door bursts open and he's like, (speaks in foreign language). And he's so freaking excited about the day. And that was every day. It wasn't like- So what is that? Like, where's that coming from? Like, what is that about? I think that number one, he genuinely enjoys what he does. And I think he still has fun doing it. And I think at his level, (murmurs) (laughs). But, I've worked with other A-listers, you know, at his level, in terms of box office and pay grade all that. And they are not enthusiastic about coming to work. So I wouldn't say it's the same as other people at his level. So that's special. And then the other thing is, I think that he knows that he is in a leadership position that can change the tone, or galvanize the tone on a set, like that. And he's well aware of that. And he's right, because I'm not Tom cruise but I've been number one on my shows, and things like that or movies. And it is top-down. I mean, if you come to set and you're that person, everyone is affected by you, truly. You know if you wanna give everyone a bad day, you can absolutely do that. Right. But at the same time, like, what is he, 57 now- Something like that.
56, something like that. And you know, he's jumping from building to building, and breaking his ankle, doing all these stunts. And like, you know, it's just like the relentlessness- It's relentless. To achieve at the highest level, is you know that engine inside of him is like something, you just don't experience with almost anybody you're ever gonna meet. You just don't, you don't. And he's been here, (chuckles) he's like in decade five of doing this, or whatever. And it's still, it's like a dynamo, like it's a nuclear reactor-
It really is. That never runs out of steam. And he never runs out of steam. I mean, it's almost inhuman what goes on with that person. And I also can tell you from experience that he does do everything. and it's a lot of insurance to insure his movies. Like he's- There was all that footage of where he broke his ankle. Like Mission, that leap.
Truly. He doesn't have to do that.
Oh yeah, and easily done. Like I'm telling you, like, I would get into like these little arguments with JJ, about little things on Mission, that he wouldn't let me do. And I'm like, JJ, like I am capable, and he's like, Maggie, I need you for the whole movie. I can't lose you now we're in month one, it's stupid. Like let's not take the risk. And then my double, broke her ankle, jumping off one balcony into another. And he was just like, it was that I told you so moment, (laughs) He looked at me, and I'm like, okay, yeah (laughs). (Rich laughs).
Right. Well, yeah the story is, and I don't know how much of this is true or apocryphal, but you do your own stunts. This is how you were trained in Hong Kong. And how much of that is still the case. I mean, short of JJ saying, I don't want you to do that. Are you the person who's saying no, I'm gonna do that. 100%
Yeah. And it's like a problem for some directors, you know like they, for example- Well it's a risk because if you get hurt, they gotta shut down. And this is it, and they're just like, Maggie, I don't think you understand what's riding on this. So I just finished a movie. I think it's going to be out soon, I think May. I'm with Michael Keaton and Sam Jackson. Martin Campbell directed, you know he did Casino Royale, Gold Knives, Zorro, big director. And we do this, movie and there's just things. And he's like, darling, no.
(Rich laughs) And I'm like Martin, but Martin. And so we would get into these things, you know, and one of the things he didn't want me to do, was this stunt. I mean, there's only two stunts in my career that I've actually had an amount of fear before. 'Cause I really don't have a lot of fear. And so just done this recent movie where I'm running, I'm jumping. I jumped backwards off four stories, and I'm taking out these guys on each level. And the rehearsal process was really, and Martin was just like, he was just pulling his hair out. He's like, I cannot believe you're gonna do this. I'm not only am I gonna do it, It's gonna be one shot on this. You know we're gonna arm out, and it's gonna be me all the way. You're gonna follow me all the way down. 'Cause if I'm going to risk my... We need to see it, in very real way. To the point where like we had a camera man who actually couldn't get it on the first day. I was 10 hours in a wire, he couldn't get it. I had to do another day of jumping off four stories because he couldn't get it. Right (chuckles). It was just you know- Have you not been in a Tarantino movie? Like I would feel like he'd be the first guy to sign you up to do some crazy stunt, you know, martial arts- I don't like his violence, I just don't. I Mean, like I'm not saying he's not a good director, like none of that, you know. I mean, he's kind of, it's just not my... I really dislike his violence. It's just, it's so gratuitous. I like fight scenes in a movie and stuff, but like gratuitous and ultra gory is not my thing Right.
I really- I wanna know more about how you got cast in Mission, from what I understand like JJ just discovered you, you know found out what you were doing in Hong Kong, and that's how it came together. Yeah, is that funny?
Yeah. Well, I had met this agent from CAA, sort of six months before this happened and he met me at a party and he was like, wait a minute. I'm sorry, who are you? What are you doing here? And I said, oh, I live here, I work here. And he's like, you do movies here. And I'm like yeah. No accent, wait you're American. And he's like but you're American? I'm like yeah, I'm American. I just happened. And he said, you'll be in Hollywood six months. And I was like, he's like, does that interest you? I said, not even remotely. How can it not interest you. What were you thinking in the back of your mind? Like eventually, like I'll be able to do something in the States. I don't know what I was thinking. I wasn't a big picture person at the time. I think I was in survival mode, and it was sort of like I was going to just accomplish what was in front of me to the best of my ability and hope that I can build from there. And so I think I was very small picture at the time, I have to say. And then he just said, yeah you'll be in Hollywood. I was like, that to me, doesn't spell success. I mean, if I'm happy, and I like what I'm doing, wherever that is, that's success to me. And he's like, you have no idea what you're talking about. So anyway, I mean six months to the month, you know, I get this call. I have to fly to LA. And apparently like JJ had cast like 200 women. I mean, I'd seen 200 women for this role. And he was like, no, it's not the person yet. There's someone out there. So I fly from Asia here and I land that evening. And the next morning I wake up, I am so sick. I couldn't even stand up. I had 105 degree temperature. I called the casting director and I said, oh my God I don't know what's happening. I'm so sick. And she's like, we're coming to get you. We're coming against you. So she comes and takes me- Is that April Webster? April, who's the kindest. I mean, if anyone's listening and wants to be cast in something like she's the one. I mean, she's so kind. So she came over, they got me, got me to Paramount. I am so sick that I'm shaking. I'm going from like sweating, like fever. Like you can't even like, I wanna tear all my clothes off to being so cold that I couldn't even hold a tea in my hand. Like when I walked in the room, see JJ, my hands were like this, and the tea was spilling all over me. 'Cause I'd gone through a cold spell and April was like Maggie, and she really helped me. She said, it's 10 minutes, you're doing three scenes max. You can change your life in 10 minutes. And I know it's you, I just know it's you. So I need you to go in there and get this movie. And I was like, oh my God. I mean, I was delirious.
Wow. And then I did the audition and JJ on the spot said- You did it in front of JJ, he was there for the audition. Tom was promoting one of the world's at the time. He was very involved in the casting process but he couldn't be there. And normally he would be there once it was like kind of honed into a few people. And on the spot, JJ said I will do anything to get you into the (murmurs) you have to be in this movie. We're doing this movie together. And I was so sick that I said, I think I have to go to the hospital (both laughs). So I go to the hospital. He knew you were sick though. Oh, he knew I was sick. But he also was just like, you gotta bring it because it's not just me. I have to please the studio heads and Tom and everyone else. So I went to the hospital, I woke up the next day in my room, like delirious. I almost, I kind of remembered what I did, but not really. Cause I was just so fevery and I had this basket in my room. It was the biggest basket I've ever seen in my life. I mean, it was like the size of the... I mean you can't even believe it. And I was like, I don't know anyone in LA, why would I have a basket in my room? 'Cause I wasn't sure what happened. And then I sort of had a card on it, and I took the card off. And it said here's to a great mission, love Tom and JJ. And that's when it like hit me that I actually got the movie. It self-destruct though. Yeah, it didn't blow up.
(Rich laughs) Yeah, I got to eat all the crackers and figs (laughs). What's funny about the way that you tell these stories is you paint yourself as very much like this happy-go-lucky person who's kind of just bouncing around and like, oh my goodness, I didn't know. I'm like suddenly you're in these crazy, you know situations and opportunities, but that doesn't have like, part of me is like, I don't buy it. Like, you're-
Oh my God I hope. Listen if you're- Tell me if there's another side to it. I don't know how you... First of all, you get selected by Jackie and his team. So you clearly not just survive that, you thrive in that. Like you rise to the top and you become the person who's the go-to. Like you're identifying these opportunities and making the most of them, right? Well, I have to tell you, at the time it didn't feel like thriving. Because I may be moving up the ranks and I may be earning a measure of respect from these people, but they never made it feel like I was thriving. Like they always made sure that you were never getting ahead of yourself. You knew your place.
100%. So it was a real struggle. And then when I got Mission and I was on the film, I still felt like that person who had to like earn everything, in every second, in every moment and then, I remember the first time I got a compliment, on MI-III.
(dog barks) I was like-
Oh Romeo. I couldn't believe it. I didn't know what was happening. 'Cause that doesn't happen- It just didn't happen for like seven years It's not part of that-
Yeah, I didn't have it. And so I kind of sat back and was like, what is this thing you've said to me, that made me feel something inside that I shouldn't feel, 'cause then I'm getting ahead of myself. But the minute you get to Hollywood, everyone's blowing smoke up your ass. Well, so that's what I mean, it's so indisingenuous. So, it's sort of like, there's so many compliments that go on, you know, as you know, this is Hollywood speak and agents, and people I'd never experienced in my career, going, oh, you're the next this, and you're that, and, oh, we know you. You don't know anything about me. You've no idea what you're talking about. Like, you don't know where I've come from. Like I'm a survivor, and you're blowing sunshine up my ass because you think that I'm gonna buy it. But the truth is I haven't gotten a compliment in eight years and I don't believe anything you're saying (laughs). It never affected me. Like it never, people were... I mean, they would say things on Mission, they were just like, you're so strong, and amazing, and skilled. It was just this glaze. I had this kinda glaze of like almost like abused child- So then what was the comment that you got where you actually were you're registered, where you're like, oh, this is meaningful. You know what, I wasn't a person who grew up with a ton of confidence. This is confirmed, like this I know. So going into this industry, I did have this work ethic that was kind of built in. I have parents who worked very hard. And then Jackie, right? And so I'm surrounded by these people, where it's like, you have to earn your way. There's no free lunch here. There's no like, you know, relying on your God-given skill set or looks, or any of this stuff, you have to work hard. So, okay. So I had that, and it was almost like emotional cutting. It was like very punishing the way I went about things and like, okay, I'm just gonna work super hard naming it. But I never felt like, I had really gotten there, I had earned it. I was really worth much. I never felt that way. And that's a problem, right? Because no matter what you're achieving, it's never enough, but not in an obsessive way, in an internal kind of sad way. And so it wasn't until we were actually in Rome, I think it was our first day of filming. We were on the Tiber River. We're speeding up and Tom-
With speed boats stuff? Yeah, Tom does everything. So he's manning the boat. He's the whole thing. And so we had a guy like kind of crouched on the bottom.
(Rich laughs) If we have horse, we had some like electrical failure or something. But he wasn't doing it, Tom was doing everything. So it was me, it was the team. It was Tom, myself, Ving Rhames, and Jonathan Rhys Meyers, during this boat. And we have, you know, they're changing lens or something. So we're at our ones, and we're just sitting there in this boat and it was so intimidating, 'cause there was maybe 5,000 people that had lined just to get a glimpse of him. Line up on the side of the river. Oh, I mean as far as the eye could see, and you're like, holy shiet, I'm standing next to a movie star. This is a movie star, like legit. Like there's no question, this man... Like the power that he holds. I mean just a glimpse of him, like they were, it was crazy. So anyway, I'm sitting in this boat, and it was a really intimidating day although I felt sort of like, no, I felt good about it and it was fine. And we're sitting in the boat, and Tom's like, Maggie, tell me about yourself. Like, I haven't seen any of your US movies. And I was like, I don't have US movies. (Rich laughs) He's like what? And he was like, I don't understand, what do you mean? And I said, oh, this is my first US movie. And he goes, you're kidding me. And I said no, no, this is my first US movie. And he's like, I don't this, there's no way. He's like Ving? And Ving, he's like on his phone or something. And, he's like Ving get over her. And Ving is like, hey, what's going on? And he goes, this is Maggie's first US movie. (Rich laughs)
And Ving goes, no shiet. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, damn, he's like Johnny, Johnny, you believe this. And he brings down (murmurs) It's like so embarrassing. So Johnny comes over, and he's like, Johnny, this is Maggie's first US movie. And Johnny is like really, no way, blah, blah. So everybody's like having this conversation about me in front of me. And I'm like, yeah, that's it. And Tom's like, let me get this straight. Let me get this straight. You have not done a movie in the US, and then the first movie you do is like a $200 million, like monstrosity, where we're like on the Tiber river in Rome, speeding up and down with this 200 man crew, blah, blah. What was your first experience? I said, yeah, that's right. And he goes, you know Maggie, if you didn't tell me that, he goes, I would never know it. He's like, you act like you belong here. And I don't know where it came from. I looked at him and I said, I do belong here. And he looked at me and he said, you're goddamn right you do. That's fucking cool. (Maggie laughs) Like, that's a moment. It was. It was really like, I can't believe I just said that to him. I got chills, that's pretty cool. Where did that even come from? Like, I don't have the confidence to say that, but I know that I put in eight year of blood, sweat and tears, literally, by the way. And I was there, and I'm like, well, screw it, like why shouldn't I be here? But, that is not to say that, I took it for granted, where I thought I was like special, and like, oh it had to be me. No, by the way, like, I don't care who it is. It can always be someone else. It doesn't have to be you. It doesn't have to be me. You know what I mean? So it's keeping that in mind. I think that keeps it all into perspective Right.
For me in Hollywood. Right.
That's such a good story. It's really cool. Like, I'm just trying to- I don't think I've ever told that story, (laughs). All the people on the side of the river, and you're in the boat and the whole thing. Yeah, it was a whole thing. 'Cause again, I don't even know where it came from. Like, I didn't have what it took to say that to Tom Cruise. (Maggie laughs)
Well clearly, you're right. And he was right, 'cause you're still here. You're still doing it.
By the grace of God (laughs) So what happened with, I mean, that movie was enormous. But there were all these other mission movies, that came after that, right? Like what, there was some cast changes, and how didn't you end up in, you know all of them? Oh, no they called me for the other two after that. And I was on a show. I know. Was that Nikita or which- Yeah. And then they called again for five, and I was on this other stupid thing I should have been on. And then I couldn't do it for that reason, which was like oh, even worse, cause it was like something I didn't wanna be on, but you're sort of, they kind of own your year, and there's really nothing you can do. That thing when you sign up for a show and that's it. And that was it so- But you've traveled back and forth, between movies and TV pretty consistently. Yeah I've been very lucky. I mean, I really haven't done much TV to be honest Nikita was my first thing and I did it, and then I did this one thing for one year, and then I did designated survivor for three years. And like, that's been my experience. That was three years, wow.
Yeah, it was, yeah. And that show is over now?
Oh, yeah. It did Netflix, picked up that additional- It was ABC, and then Netflix picked it up, yeah for a third season. But I wasn't contracted to do a show on Netflix. So I was like, this will be my last, I'm not (laughs). I don't wanna do this for 10 years (laughs) like, please God. Well, I know you just shot like a pilot, for like a sitcom comedy, right? Yeah.
Which is cool. 'Cause you're like fun, and you can be silly.
Oh, thank you. And all these things, but your screen persona is so gnarly. Oh, it's so gnarly.
She's bad ass. She can be intimidating. Right. I'm scared to talk to her. Yeah so I know, it's super fun. I'm so excited actually, to do a comedy. You know, it was funny because I did this little movie called The Argument, that came out on Netflix and it was like this director, this young guy named Robert Schwartzman you know who Jason Schwartzman is, that his brother. Yeah. Such a great guy. And I met with him and I don't... It was honestly, it was Robert. Like I met with Robert and we're at a Lappan, we're sitting there, like having a coffee for like three hours. And the whole time we talked about like he's like, tell me the work you do with kids. Then we're talking about like child advocacy. And then that was our whole meeting. It was kind of like dark and sad. And, but all this stuff that goes on with kids in the US we're trying to combat. And then we left the meeting and he was like, no you're definitely this funny person that should be in my movie. I'm like wait, what? It was really funny. But because of him, the creator of the show saw that movie and she was like, oh my God, that's my girl. She's got to do this.
She can be funny. So it only takes one person to see you as a certain thing because you know, Hollywood, they put you in boxes. Yeah.
That's where you say. Yeah. Do you know if the show got picked up? We'll know soon like in May. Yeah. It's usually when they decide and then there's enough funds, but which they won't be because of COVID this year. So the argument, like wasn't that meant to be at Tribeca- We're supposed to premiere at Tribeca, and then it didn't, which was sad. Did it come out? 'Cause I haven't seen that movie. Yeah, It came out on Netflix, yeah. Like everything else had to go straight to streaming because (murmurs)- Right, and then you did a horror movie too, right? I did, I did. Yeah.
Yeah. With Luke Hemsworth Yes, oh, he's so great. What a great guy. I've met him, he's friends with a buddy of mine, I don't know him well (murmurs)- Oh, my God, he's such a great guy. And they're such a close knit group. Those brothers.
They really are. I mean, they just, it's so sweet to hear him talk about like, they're just, they're best friends. And they just love each other so much. And he's really like, my brothers are the greatest guys in the whole world and they feel the same about him, and I'm like wow, me and my sister we aren't like that. (indistinct) energy. Well, they all lived in Malibu, and now they all live in Byron Bay. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. But anyway, I mean, what a threesome. Yeah, they travel together. And also, you know what, raised right. Because when you're around people who were raised right, you just know. They seem like good dudes. Super down to earth, and just like connected, and good to their wives, and kind. And you're just like, wow, what a wonder? I know, you root for them to be successful. You actually do, you know? I mean, for some of them, like they're so tall, and good looking, and everything and you're like, wow, it's kind of unfair, but then you're like, no, you're actually a good guy. Like, I'm really happy about that, cause there's plenty of guys who aren't good guys, who make it really big, and you're like, really? So it's nice to see that. Yeah. We should mention that you brought Romeo, your dog. He's running around. Kind of worked out for him.
He's sweet. 'Cause as I said, he got in trouble this morning. How many dogs do you have now? I have three. You do?
Yeah. So I have-
Didn't you have like eight at some time or- I had eight at one point, yes. Actually when Shaun and I were doing Earthlings, that time, I had eight. And it was actually Cesar Millan, who had come over to my house 'cause I would have, you know I rescued the big troubled, you don't rescue Shih Tzu's. Like I rescue like Pit Bulls, and you know whatever German Shepherds, and all that sort of stuff. And the ones that have problems, that people can't help. I'm like, Oh, I can handle this (laughs). Right.
And I couldn't. And I had these eight dogs and they were killing each other. And so I got Cesar Millan, to came over and he basically was like, put it all into perspective. And he's like, you can't make a difference by taking them all home. Like if you wanna be an advocate for them, and you wanna do like big picture stuff for them, that's what you do Maggie. You take as many as like you're capable of, and you leave the rest. You know what I mean? And I was like, this dude is so right. He really... I mean, he was just like, because then you become a shell of a person, which you are right now, I was just like frayed, at the ends. Yeah, that's another thing, I've talked to talked to Gene Baur about. You know, as somebody who owns a sanctuary, it's like, you wanna rescue all these animals, you have this pull, this yearning, this call to action. But at some point, you know, at what costs? Like you can only do so much, and you have to make peace with the fact that you can't rescue all of them. And that on some level, like farm sanctuary, operates as a symbol, right?
Sure. Or as an opportunity to bring people in, and educate them- And onwards they go hopefully- As much as it is about those animals themselves. And the thing is, if you try to do it all you're also like, not creating opportunity for other people to fill that space. Like you have to realize that like, it's all kind of metaphysical, isn't it, right? Yeah.
You know, we sort of living this life and there'll be voids, and there are people who will fill them and you have to leave the door open for that. And that is a thing, and it does happen, but you have to believe that. Right, we were talking about this before the podcast, that with baked into being that kind of empath, is almost this feeling that you kind of have to be a martyr. Like it's not okay to actually thrive in the world, right? That's exactly right.
Yeah. That's exactly right. Like you can't be both, and that's not true. and you know some of the people that I've become very friendly with and I'm close to, are now investing in some of the biggest meat alternative companies in the world. And they're not, if I close the door on them, they're not vegan, they're not veg, they're not whatever. But you don't close the door on people, You don't close the door on any opportunity, because you can maybe have an effect in a way that you didn't believe was possible. If you're not putting an expectation on someone that's your own. Well, it's such an interesting time. I mean, you've been doing this for 20 years. I've been in it for 14 years. And the difference between that and now is like insane. It's insane. And at the same time with all the progress, and all the kind of mainstream information, and enthusiasm around this type of lifestyle, and living more sustainably, and more consciously, there's also, on this point of meeting people where they're at, or not talking down to people, there's so much acrimony, and infighting within the subcultures and communities- Oh, 100%.
Like vegans who are angry, that you know, that- The abolitionist, versus reformist, yeah sure. Burger King, has a plant-based burger, and we got to boycott them, because they still use, you know they're still selling beef and- Of course.
You gotta celebrate, these wins (indistinct). And it's like, okay, like you're at a place in your life where you're not the customer for that Burger King plant-based burger, but there's so many other people that can benefit from that. Absolutely.
Or that's their entry point. And being compassionate to that and putting out a welcoming mat for anybody, wherever they are. Anybody meet them. Also, you create a bigger demand within those industries. You don't agree with, and who knows what that's gonna turn into. Like, you know you don't know. Yeah, you need all the voices. You need the hardcore, radical, person who's like, you know- The PETA's.
Yeah. And then the humane society- And you need the person who can work within McDonald's to create change from inside. I mean, I work with a group, I'm on the board of a group called Social Compassion and Legislation. We do a lot of legislative work up in Sacramento, and you know, it is the epitome of that. So you're sort of like, you know, you're going into these meetings with these senators, and assembly men, and people who can, you know, these are lawmakers. These are people that really essentially work for us, right? And you know, I go there, and I'm sort of lobbying senators and you know (laughs) in this building and then there's no one there, and I'm driving down Melrose and there's 40 people in line for lip gloss. And it bums me out, because it's like we have so much influence, all you have to do is care. All you have to do is show up. Half of it showing up, right? Life gotta show up. And then once you show up, you really have to like be in those rooms, with people that may not get it. But what you're gonna do in those rooms, can be pretty remarkable. Well, it's one thing to be a proponent of this lifestyle. And it's another thing to really shoulder that mantle, and carry that responsibility to use like the platform that you have to advocate, on behalf of these causes. So where does that come from in you? Cause it would be very easy for you to be like, I'm just, I'm doing my movies. I don't wanna make waves. Sure, it is much easier to do that. I don't wanna upset people.
Yeah- So where does that pull come from? I kind of feel like, it's almost not even a choice in that. You know, we live this very privileged existence, like in every way. And I mean that in things that I've earned, I mean it in things that I'm living, like okay, I'm given my health, I have this gift of health and I can walk and I function. So that's a gift. And then I've earned these other things, where I work in Hollywood, and I have certain privileges, and you know, you start to develop a voice for certain things, and it doesn't feel like a choice. It feels like a responsibility. When you have a lot, how do you not... And it can be anything, you know, pick what it is that you sort of feel isn't right in your mind, in your heart, in your soul. And you go out there, and you really, you fight for it. And you hope that other people will do the same, when something matters to them, because I'm sure you get this all the time. I've gotten it for 20 years. Like, oh, you don't care about kids. You don't care about women. You don't care about libraries, I don't know. Because you've chosen to advocate for one thing. That's at the exclusion of other things that are important. This is exactly it. And like, you're so right, I hate children, because I love the environment or whatever it is, you know. And it sort of is there's always this line, and so it's always this thing of like, I have people that write into me and go, you care more about homeless pets, than you do about homeless children. I'm like interesting. And I said, I'm so glad that you care about homeless children. Well, I do. I said, well, tell me more. What do you do for homeless children? I'm fascinated, I wanna know. Nothing, absolutely nothing. So I've never, ever, run into a person who puts themselves out there, who advocates for something they care about regardless of what it is, who has ever criticized me. You know, when I'm in rooms with women's rights activists, my human rights friends in DC, we all kind of look at each other and go thank you for what you do, because what you do matters. In your lane, and in your category. It's always people who do nothing, who have a ton to say, about what you're doing. How often have you gone to Washington, and done the health thing. One, god I'm set to go this year too. I just got a phone call yesterday, because we're really on the match for more federal funding for some of the child protection stuff that I do. And it's really daunting when you look at sort of budgets, and you know what are policymakers, and lawmakers, you know allocate for certain things and not for others. And I sort of went down this rabbit hole many years ago where it was like my birthday weekend. And there was this child abuse prevention summit that I went to in San Diego. And I was there for the weekend, and the Rabbit Hole for me was huge, because everyone was there, everyone from the CDC, to child protective services, to forensic physicians, to law enforcement, everyone was there. So it was this think tank, of how do we better protect children? And the CDC had done this presentation. And to be very honest, it was really quite boring. And then towards the end, she busted out this sort of graph. And it was like almost this sputnik kind of chart, where at the center was abuse and neglect. And then everything that came from that, sort of armed off into all these different societal issues. And I remember like that was like the moment where it just dropped for me, where I was looking at everything from suicide, opiate addiction, to alcohol, to teen pregnancy, to high school dropouts. Everything that you can think of, like in the 80th percentile was stemming from- All tracks back to abuse in the home. Right, from when in your formative years, when you should be forming in the right way, and you know, you're being betrayed, and take advantage of. And so... I mean that was it for me. It was just sort of like I had read a couple things in the last LA times over the years. I remember eight years prior, I had read this story about this kid who was like tied to a chair by his mom and boyfriend, and he was beaten to death. He was six. And they had a file on him, you know the child protective services, they were under investigation. But we were failing here. We're failing, and then eight years later, I read another story that was very similar with a mom and the boyfriend, who had killed this kid. He was like eight. And the second time I had read about it, like that fury in me, like the same thing I have for the animals, and all that sort of stuff, and the environment, I couldn't ignore it anymore. 'Cause it was something I think it was very... It just felt so personal, and I was so angry that we were failing kids. And these are the kids by the way that grow up to abuse their partners, and animals, and all the rest of it and not care because they've been so disenfranchised, and they're in so much pain, that there's nothing that they can care about outside of their own pain. And again, this is stemming from the very, very early years. So I'm like if I'm gonna make a difference in some of the stuff I'm doing, like we talked about earlier about getting them young, we really have to do everything we can do to protect them at this young age. And that means exploitation. It means all the trafficking, abduction, abuse in the home, all of it. And so I did, I got involved about four, five years ago and I have not stopped since. And so this year we're going into DC, and we're really, we've got to get more money from the federal government for these programs, because it's really the technology that's gonna protect this kids So what is the solution, like where do you direct those funds, or what are the policy changes, that can really move the needle? Policy is tough, right? Because you know, if you depend on the federal government, to do what you need them to do, you're gonna be waiting a very long time, right? (chuckles). So I work with a group of former police chiefs federal agents, who have created this group called the I catch cops as the internet crimes against children, child online protective system. And this is a system that actually finds predators online. And so a lot of the money really goes to upping the technology. Because if you're talking about criminal activity, they're good at what they do. Unfortunately they know what they're doing and they're trying to figure out how you're detecting them, and they're trying to evade you at all costs, because this is something that they are absolutely addicted to. And so you have to stay ahead of them, and that takes money. And it takes technology, and it takes manpower. So, you know, it's yeah, DC this year... Yeah, that's dark though. It's dark and it's something people don't take on. Yeah, you have to create an emotional boundary around yourself too. I would imagine also just be able to, you know, deal. I'll tell you that this particular area of protection that I work in, is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I'll jump off a building, I'll do whatever it is. You know, like making Earthlings with Shaun, and seeing what I saw, and what humanity has done to animals at that time. And then now seeing what humanity does to each other. Those are the two darkest times I think for me. Darkest stuff I've ever seen in my life. And the reality is it's happening. And this is not a subject celebrities are gonna take on, it's too dark. And it's actually not something I've ever talked about. Something I've done very quietly. For a very long time. Yeah, cause I haven't heard you talk about this that much, I mean it's at all about, plenty on the animal rights stuff. Plenty on the (murmurs). For me, it's defenseless, right? It's defenseless lives. Yeah, it's the same theme.
It really is the same theme. Protecting people that can't protect themselves. This is what it is you know,
Yeah, exactly. It's, I don't know, I think like going back to what you said. It is a social responsibility, and if you have any kind of voice, I mean, look at what you've done, my God, if you have any kind of voice. You can truly... If it's authentic, you can really turn it into something very special, I do believe that. So when someone comes to you and says, you know, I have so much respect for what you're doing or it's so courageous, but you know, you have this platform, I don't have that. Like how can I get involved, or how do I make my voice resonate more broadly? Sure. Well, here's the thing, you have to believe number one, because there are celebrities, as we talked about earlier too, who have platforms that don't work. You know, I mean, there are big singers, they put in movies, no one goes and sees them. And they have 60, 70 million Instagram followers. Like it doesn't translate in that way, right? Or you could be a Gene Baur who like was living in the city and finding a stray chicken lamp and taking it into his townhouse. He still does that (laughs).
Yeah, exactly. And make this enormous splash. I mean, there was no, he didn't have a leg up. He had no money. I mean, they were really struggling at that time and he had a heart full of authenticity, and compassion. And so, you know, it has to be real. And if it's real, I do believe you can create a platform. I don't care who you are, you can create a platform. I mean, there are people with platforms, who don't deserve them, you know (laughs). Well, that's a whole other thing. So if you really care, and you stand for something I do believe there's a lane for you for sure. I wanna go back to the ocean stuff, 'cause you've got this cool company Qeep Up. That's all about ocean preservation and making garments, out of recycled plastic.
Yes. So tell me about that. It's been so exciting because I didn't come out the gate going, I want to be a business woman or I wanna do it in this way. For me, it was advocating for the oceans, for the last 20 years and working really closely with some of the best, and the brightest, in ocean protection for so long. And I mean really literally on the ground with them, and in the trenches for like 15 years with them. I know what the issues are firsthand. And one of the big issues besides, you know poaching and everything else we do to our oceans, is this plastics pollution issue. It is a huge issue right now, and it's not stopping. And this is an industry where we, you know we created these plastics, which became a miracle, especially in the medical world for transport and all that sort of stuff, but we never regulated it because it was just something that was going to make so much money, that we didn't care what the consequence was. So now here we are generations later, dealing with the consequences of people who got very, very rich from creating this convenience. It's actually insane that single use plastics are like legal.
It's insane. It's so incredibly irresponsible. Even just like water bottles. Oh, it's crazy.
Right. The amount of water bottles that gets thrown out every single day, and just end up where they shouldn't. Where they shouldn't. And that's really what it was, and a lot of these very large marine mammals, that are washing up and they're cutting them open, and it is a really bad situation. And then obviously, you know, when that breaks down, the micro-plastics and everything else that's happening. So we're towing our ocean and massive disservice. And, I started researching recycled materials about a decade ago. And although the technology was impressive, the product wasn't up to par, because for me, again, like we talked about earlier, like I'm not going to take someone to a vegan meal, or a vegetarian whatever meal. If it's not the best meal that we're gonna have. It's not the best meal.
This is the problem. This is the problem? And it's certainly, yeah. In fashion, it's like we don't wanna make conscious choices, and where the sustainable cool stuff. But if it's ugly...
But like, I mean, now it's getting there, but there is a long stretch where it was like yeah but I'm just not gonna wear that. Yeah, like if you're not like a full on hippie who has nowhere to go who kind of like, you know what I mean. Pitter Patter's around and does their thing. I mean, if you're a working professional, I mean you gotta look a certain way, in certain environments. And that wasn't available you're so right. And so when I saw the technology and what they were doing with kind of the yarns, and it was so cool, but it wasn't there. It just wasn't there yet. And I was like, I can't create something until we're at a level where I can create a product that's gonna be equivalent to the Nike, or this or that, that's out there. Where you're not making a sacrifice to benefit our planet. Like, I don't want you to make a sacrifice. I want you to think it's good and it performs. And you want to make that choice- There is that Elon Musk idea, like it's not enough to have an electric car. The car has to be better than all the other cars so that everybody wants it. He's so remarkable. I mean truly, like I look at his interviews and I listen in on his, you know when he speaks. And as a businessman, just a straight businessman, I mean, he just makes so much sense in his approach. You know, you have to create a product that's better. It can't just be better, it has to be way better than your competitor. It has to be, you know, and I was very affected by that, being open to criticism, and hiring the right people. You know, all the things that he sort of advocates for, when you start a business. He's bang on. I mean, obviously, clearly look at his success. He's got some crazy tweets out there too. He does.
(Rich laughs) I mean, you're not gonna get that without the level of crazy. It's just not gonna happen. But at the same time, he does know how to build a business. And so for me, I'm just looking at sort of that element of what he does. And so I said, okay, all right, I'm gonna come out with something that is the best in its category. So, okay, obviously there's active wear out there, but we're the first 100% recycled line. And our quality is like second to none. Like there's no difference between what we're come out with, and what's out there in a non-recycled version So where do you get all the recycled material? Like, how does it work? So my dream, and I've been able to do it in the US, and hopefully I'll be able to emulate this in other parts of the world. And we are gonna be able to do it in China, which is nice. But I wanted to create a company that was founded in the US, made in the US, from US trash. That was the goal. 100% US garbage? 100% US garbage, and a 100% Americans So they collect ocean plastics off of the Eastern seaboard. And those plastics are then shipped to North Carolina. In North Carolina, that's where all the factories are- But how do they get that? Do they troll it out of the ocean- They troll, but they also... So oceans plastics, I guess the literal definition is anything that's two miles out from the ocean, and anything that's 10 miles out from the shoreline. So there's this... Because anything that's, they've done the research, anything that's- Between two and 10.
Between two and 10. Anything that's within that two mile radius is gonna end up there. And anything out there is something that we have access to. But you know three quarters of what's in the ocean has sunk. So we're not even seeing, what the actual, you know, the biggest part of the problem looks like, which is actually very scary. 'Cause there's a lot of images out there, that are already scary and that's not even, the bulk of the issue. So that gets shipped, melted in North Carolina, flaked and then turned into yarn. And that yarn is shipped here to LA. And then we make our fabrics in a fully integrated facility, vertically integrated. Which means that everything happens under one roof. So we can control the quality, they dye there, they create the fabric there. I've walked the floor of every single one of our factories. I've talked to all of the workers, everything's ventilated, everything's certified be, everything is... I mean, it's... People have paid vacations. They have health insurance, like this matters. And if you're an owner of a company and you can't do that, and you can't say that you've done those things and you know how your stuff's made, then I don't know what you're doing- Most can't, and most don't, but I feel like, that you were talking earlier about, you know, how the young people have a voice now, that they didn't use to in prior generations. And it's the young people who are driving the train in terms of, you know, making more conscientious conscious consumer choices,
It's true. And (indistinct) upon any corporation now to be transparent about all those things so that we can make an informed decision. And this is it, you know, they wanna know, and they wanna know from the ground up, and they actually care, which is exciting. You know, I mean, I sat with a group of like college kids and they were asking me about the company and they were talking about like, well, you know tell us more about, if you're creating a production, aren't you creating... I'm like, well, okay, so we're taking this trash we're a milling into this. Our packaging is a hundred percent biodegradable and disappears within a year in a landfill. There's no chemicals in it. We don't have hang tags. We heat press everything. Like there's nothing coming, even our mailers are biodegradable. So there's nothing coming off our product, that's going in the trashcan. That's not gonna- And you're B Corp. Yeah, exactly. We did it because that's who we are. We didn't do it because it's like, oh God, there's this, we built this company, now there's pressure to change. Again, I don't care why they're doing it. H&M, all these people, like if you're gonna do it, great do it. But we built a company with an incredible amount of integrity. And it was really hard because it's not the easy road. It's more expensive. It's more time consuming. Like lead times, on recycled fabrics are way longer. I mean, we can't turn over the way other companies do. Yeah, and I'm sure the margins, aren't what they would be-
No, oh, my God. I mean H&M is successful for a reason. And I feel like there's a lot of companies, that just pay lip service, to the idea of sustainability, because like, just make our marketing green, you know like literally the color- Literally the color, everyone's gonna throw the color- Right, they feel better about it but there's actually, you know, they're not making any real fundamental changes because it is hard, to do it the way that you're doing it. It's really hard. And if it's not the spirit of what you do, you're gonna like, make all these cosmetic changes, right. Where under the makeup, you still have bad skin. Just cause no one's seeing it. It doesn't mean that the issue isn't there. And so that's why I encourage like young people, whatever, middle-aged people, older people, like you know, there's a lot we can learn from the younger generation. And the fact that they do their research and they wanna know we should be doing the same thing because everything that I've done, whether it's activism, or business, I mean, WildAid is one of my biggest groups. And I've been with them for 16 years. We do consumer campaigns. And that's who we target. We target the regions who consume the most rhino horn, ivory, sharks fin, manta. Like we can't police the oceans. We can't police Tsavo, and the Serengeti. We can't, it's too big. It's impossible. And so who are we gonna speak to? We're gonna speak to consumers. So in business, you can speak to consumers in a positive way and say, hey, put your dollar towards this, you're gonna make a positive change for these reasons. And on the flip side with the activism, we're like don't put your dollars towards this, and you can make a really positive effect in this way, and for these reasons. And so it's very powerful either way, but either way you have to empower consumers. We are so powerful. I mean, if we want it to shut down Walmart let's say tomorrow, we could do it. If we all just decided not going there, 40% of your workforce lives below the poverty line, you guys aren't paying people and they're full-time workers. That's disgusting. That's why I don't go there. But if we know these things, let's put our dollars into businesses that aren't doing that should a full-time worker be living in poverty. No, not in any business. Right, the problem is that most people, yeah, you have this cohort of young people who care about this, and are passionate about it and are thinking about this in a way that, you know, people who are older aren't. But you also have a huge swath of the population, they're just trying to fucking make a living. I get it, I do get it. It's like, Walmart is the only option, and you know, they got four kids at home, and it's like what you're telling me, I can't go to Walmart. Like screw you, like...
Sure. So we need both, it's like we were saying earlier you need that consumer activation, where we can, like marshall, that kind of incredible power. Right.
But we need systemic change. And we need policy change at the highest level, to prevent these things from occurring in the first place. That's a hundred percent it. This are not easy problem (chuckles). Well, you have to hit it from all sides, right? Yeah.
I mean, we passed the California Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act. And by 2023, California is gonna be... This is the fifth largest economy in the world. And we're no longer going to have animal tested cosmetics in the States. Yeah the cosmetics stuff is insane. It makes no sense, this is not life saving anything. This is so trivial. This is- And you have the kind of animal testing, but on top of that, all the toxins that are in all of those products, that go completely unregulated. Yeah.
This is insane. And this is it. But again, if you empower consumers to demand a certain thing, your legislators, and lawmakers, are going to listen because they want to please their constituents, right? And they also know that the young vote coming in, is going to be massive for them. I mean, look how they target. I mean, look at patterns, on both sides of the aisle. It's pretty obvious if you can spot patterns, and you have that kind of mind, I mean they are marketing to a group. That group is going to demand a certain type of change. Now it takes us, to go in there and say, well let's make these changes. Let's start, doing different policies. Yeah.
And that's what it is. Speaking of policy changes. Let's talk about, "They're Trying To Kill Us." Like our friend, our mutual friend, John Lewis is how we got connected. You're in that new movie. I've had John on the show a couple of times, and Keegan as well. And I'm pretty excited about this movie coming out. I'm not sure when it's gonna come out yet. There's still working on it. Yeah, when is it coming out? I'm so excited, I can't wait- They're still finishing it, but yeah, it's going to be epic, it's all about food deserts, and the sort of imbalanced treatment that socioeconomically challenged communities are in, with respect to access to good nutrition, and the messaging around that, that is having a disproportionate effect on those populations, and driving them towards these chronic illnesses resulting in many deaths. Many. So how did you get involved in the movie? Well, I think too, you know, when he's talking about sort of these more disenfranchised communities, and minority populations who are dealing with this, you're talking about many things. You're talking about black and brown communities. You're also talking about, like immigrant Asian communities as well, who are dealing with, like, we gotta buy the cheapest thing. We have to make it, like you were saying earlier- Or the liquor store, or the Bodega on the corner is the only viable option for a lot of people. You're right. And the fact that, which they do highlight in the documentary, that there aren't even grocery stores in some of these communities. There isn't a grocery store that you can walk to. There's fast food joints, there's liquor stores, everything in communities that will kill them, (chuckles) and that's all we give them access to. And the fact that they don't have the voice or the power, to speak out against what it is. And if it's all you've ever known, you don't even know that there's anything to speak out against, right? Yeah.
I mean, and how sad is that? And they, on the flip side, with the things they're actually buying, you know we have been on every level marketed to, within an inch of our life. And I don't understand why people, aren't truly making that connection between being marketed to, and whether they personally care about you. Does that make sense? Like people get, like, they get really agro, about like, you know if you attack their food, if you say, well that's not good for you. And they get very upset as if it's something personal and you're going, no, no, all I'm telling you is that, you know they don't care about your health. So you probably have to make different choices. But I feel like it's a similar dynamic. If you were telling someone that their boyfriend was cheating on them or something, they're like, how dare you? How dare you like mess with the thing that I know, the thing that I'm comfortable with that matters me. Meaning in other words, that's my OPIC to the fact that you've been actually manipulated to have this opinion about this certain kind of food or lifestyle. Right.
Is that what you're saying? That's what I'm saying. Okay, for example, I was in Wisconsin many years ago, and I've never, I mean, I've been on, but I've never watched the, it's called The View? The View, right?
Yeah. That show The View. I've never seen it, and I had woken up- (laughs) Let's see where this is gonna go. oh, here we go. So I'd woken up, and I turned on the TV, I was in a hotel and it came on and you know, they're talking, and this is early View. This is like years and years ago. I think it was very popular, I think just started. So it was original cast of characters, Like Whoopi and Barbara. Right.
Yeah. And the, blonde republican woman you know what I mean? They had like, had everyone from every walk life whenever it was. And I didn't know really anything about the show. Turn it on, and they're kind of talking, talking, talking. And I'm walking to the restroom, and I hear Whoopi Goldberg say, and the PCRM, And I'm like, what? And I stop and do you know, Neil Barnard? Yeah, of course. So, you know, I've worked with Neil. I've worked with the PCRM for years. You know, we do so many projects and things together. And I just stopped in my tracks, I went, oh my God, could it be? That The View is talking about a group that matters. You know, like a really important group, that's really unsexy that no one ever really talks about but you know, they should be. And I stopped and I'm like, oh my God, this is so exciting. I grabbed the remote, turn it up. She says the following. She says, she's driving back to her house in Malibu. And I guess PCRM had erected this billboard on the way to Malibu. And it was a pack of cigarettes, and instead of cigarettes, it was hot dogs coming out of the cigarette pack. And it said, you know, 20 quarter of all cancers are- It's sort of a page out of the PETA playbook outrage- But they actually have the science, because they are a group of doctors and scientists, who are saying, yeah our independence studies have shown that almost a quarter of all cancers come from smoked, cured and processed meats, right? Fact, Time magazine is saying this now, the NIH is saying this now, United Nations did reports on this now. And this is at a time when none of these mainstream agencies or publications were saying anything about any of this. So PCRM had already known all this, blah, blah, blah. So they just billboard. And she says, so I'm driving back to my house, and I'm going to Malibu or whatever it is. And she sees this billboard and she was so angry. And she said, how dare the PCRM, put up a billboard like that. She's like, how dare you tell me not to eat hot dogs. She said, you know what PCRM, she's like, I'm gonna eat more hot dogs. And then she said something like, and I'm gonna get my grandkids hot dogs. I'm gonna get my grandkids more hot dogs. Now that you're telling me not to eat hot dogs. And I just, my heart just fell into my stomach. And then the blonde chick, I don't even know her name. She says, I know, I can't believe they did that and during baseball season. Right. Cut to a commercial, you know, Tyson Foods or something like that. I'm like, is she getting paid by Oscar Meyer? Why are you defending them? Like when they do billboards that like have a ticker tape about how many people are dying from alcohol abuse or cigarettes- But Maggie, this is the American way.
Isn't it? And you can't criticize, you know, my lifestyle choice. Like, that's the problem, right? Like, so that goes to the heart of like, what does it mean to be an American or what are my values? Doesn't it. And that disconnect between like just take it for what it is. Like this food is not good for you. Who is offering information to- It's not telling you how to live. Nobody's trying to take your liberties away from you. Well, this is what I'm saying. And if you're telling me that almost a quarter of all cancers are coming from this, you're also telling me that cancers coming from cigarettes and all the rest. I'm not mad about that. I mean, it's- I mean, in the movie, what the health, of the thing that... It was the same thing, like isn't there a scene where they do the same thing. They put cigarettes in the hotdog bond or something like that. And that was what provoked all the EIR, and a huge backlash and, you know I'm sure Keegan did it on purpose, knowing that would happen, because that becomes a talking point and it gets more people to pay attention to the movie. But people don't like that. I know, but let's have a healthy discourse about it. Like, let's talk about it, right. If you're angry, tell me why you're angry. And then I'll tell you why I care, and wanna provide this information. And that's really all it is because we all know for a fact that when you feel better, you do better. And there's a residual effect to that feeling And when we're sick and dying, and we're in this state of chronic disease that we don't belong in, you know that people aren't in a place where they can do better not only for themselves, but for others. It's just, there is an effect. It does matter. You know, I mean I have a supplement company. We sent health and get health and we talk about diet and changing diet and probiotics and what they mean and why they mean. And it's funny because like, I mean, I would say in anything I do in my career, I would say that makes me the happiest. When people say, I feel better than I've ever felt in my life, and I want more people to do this. And I want to change more people's diet, and I'm gonna then go to my family members, and my significant other, or my coworkers and say, hey, this really worked for me. You've got to eliminate some stuff from your diet and be better, and do this and that. That to me matters more than anything, because you make someone feel better. Yeah, and what I like about it is, your approach is, you're passionate, but you're also not overly dogmatic. Like your probiotic company, you partner with our friend, Frank Littman who like, is not vegan. And I always have, I know we were talking about this before, like I always have these spirited arguments because he can't wrap his head around, like why would be vegan (murmurs) or you're still vegan? Like-
And he's my doctor (laughs). And as I said to you I have another doctor who- Although he told me not too long ago that he was moving more on the plant-based direction. Yeah.
I don't know if he'll ever get there, but like my point being, you partnered with a doctor who doesn't necessarily co-sign your dietary perspective-
That's exactly right. He's an integrative medicine doctor, and he's a great guy. And he helps a lot of people.
He sure does. At what point, you know I think at some point like the dogmatic approach works at cross purposes with the larger goal. And we're fighting on the margins like whether honey is vegan or not. When most people, you know, to bring it back to they're trying to kill us, are lining up at Burger King and killing themselves unnecessarily. And this is where our focus and our attention should be. That's it, on the broader more important things that are gonna change the masses, and that are really gonna, create systemic change because the demand is there, right? Educating people enough to where we can create that demand I think is everything. And not discounting as we talked about earlier it's very important not to discount anyone, where they are, what they do, how they live. It's not okay. Everybody is where they are. And anyone who, you know wasn't raised this way, or who didn't really understand the lifestyle until they tried it and it worked for them, and they're happy with it. None of us can deny that we were ever in that place. We were absolutely in that place. Yeah, and no one wants to be told what to do, or lecture to. And if there is, you know like going back to the PCRM billboard. Like the reaction on the view, comes from this idea that they're being talked down to. Well, and here's what's even more fascinating than any of it. Is whatever reaction you are choosing to have, is you. It has nothing to do what's being told to you. Absolutely nothing, because you can choose to take it however you wanna take it, right? You can look at that and go, hey, that's interesting information, I really appreciate that. I'm gonna look it up, I'm gonna read a little more on that 'cause I didn't know that. And that, okay, that's a certain person view. But if you wanna make a choice to be defensive about it gauge how open your door is, or your window, that's you. Well, that applies to everything right now, It literally everything.
As we, you know become so siloed in our respective information sectors- 100%
And the most obnoxious thing you can say to somebody is like, I did my research, you do yours. There's a lot of that we obviously we see this in politics but that applies to- Everything.
Yeah, of course. I mean even in relationship, it's like, I may hear something from my partner that I don't wanna hear, and it may adversely affect me inside, (Rich laughs)
but at the same time... Welcome to being in a relationship. Right. But at the same time, when I can remove my wound from the situation and look at it objectively it is always something I can do better always. But you have to have self-awareness around that wound, right? True. Well you have to know you're coming from a wound. Otherwise you're reacting impulsively. Correct, right. So, you know and as a female, I'm a very emotional female. There may be females out there who aren't as emotional as I am. But I would say we're the emotional contingent of the two. And for me, I always say to my friends, I say, don't do the thing you're good at. So I'm very emotional. I'm an empath, I have all these things like I'm already good at that. I don't need to do that. What I need to do is remove the wound or at least put the wound aside and be able to look at what's happening. What's in front of me, very logically, and have a different perspective on it. Because I can have an emotional reaction to it. That's normal, that's who I am. But I don't wanna be who I am, I'm already good at who I am. I wanna be better than who I am. So for you, what is that wound? I think I would say at the heart of it, it would be probably worthlessness. That's so interesting. Yeah, I would say that's the crux of everything. Yeah. Because going from a person who was at one point really defensive, to a person now who like is completely open to criticism and invites it, is completely... Is night and day. I can't even tell you. And it also, the growth is also night and day. Because when we get stuck in our story, and like you can tell yourself whatever story you want. I mean, you can be a six and tell yourself you're a 10, and you're gonna get everything a 10 gets (laughs). But you can also be a 10, and tell yourself your entire life that you're a four and you will be there. You will not move past that point. So what is it that you did to, to climb that mountain? I think a lot of reading has helped me a lot. I mean, there are certain people who have perspectives. There's a book called Letting Go. There's another book called The Untethered Soul. That's really ultimately about freedom. And when you think about freedom, as an internal concept, we can be prisoners of whatever we feel we're going to imprison ourselves behind. But we also are our soul. The human mind and the human spirit is so resilient, and so incredible, that if we decide to make those changes, they're made. They are absolutely going to happen. And so there's no more excuses in my life where if something's not happening that it's someone else. Number one, someone else. Something that I didn't invite, or something that I can't change. There's no... If you lived your life, in any situation that you're in, whether it's a fight with your wife or husband, boyfriend, girlfriend whatever it is. A friend, a coworker, and you always look at yourself and try to take the road from what you feel to your wound, whatever it is whether it's worthlessness, or ego, or vanity, whatever it is, you will find that connection. And you will understand that it is you. Yeah.
And that's hard to take. That's a very AA thing.
Is it? I've been in recovery for a long time. But yeah, essentially, you do an inventory over a situation and you identify what your part is. And, that part generally tracks pretty closely with some character defect that is created by some wounding or some pain that dates back as far as you can remember. It's really true. And you're gonna attract lessons, and teachers, and people who come into your life, to hold that mirror up to you and say, well you don't like this about me, well, guess what? Or the more you ignore or deny that this is a thing the more it's gonna come up. And the sort of repercussions of that are gonna continue to escalate until the universe has your attention. Until you've learned that lesson. There's a philosopher, his name's John Demartini, and he says, whatever we run away from, we run into. Right. So there's really no... I mean you've got to solve it at some point, right? And solving it is you.
Right. It's always you. But here's the thing about energy, that's exciting about this. As hard as it is to hear the things that you don't wanna hear, and make the changes you wanna make. If you're always focused on yourself you don't have to do anything to see the changes in the person or the situation around you. It will happen by virtue of you changing. Right. That's a universal truth. That's a spiritual truth.
100% It's a spiritual truth. And it is a game changer. And it is full-proof, there's no way you change your energy. And you say to yourself, I've really got to fix this problem in me and that around you, the energy doesn't change. Yeah.
Impossible. The problem is most people are externally focused and they think, well, if I just trade up on my relationship to this other person, that's gonna solve the problem. But that's tantamount to just keeping the blinders on. And you know, it's a mechanism to avoid having to look at yourself in that way. Well, that is what it is. Cause what is looking at ourself, it's painful. No one must be in pain. No, it's the worst. It's the worst, but guess what- But the pain is what gets you to do it But here is the thing we're always in pain. (Rich laughs)
So it doesn't matter. It's a sort of like, you can either put the bandaid on, or you can go deep, and you can have many years where you're in a lot less pain than you are now. Yeah.
If you focus- Was there something that like, was this just a slow evolution for you? Or did something happen, that made you do a little bit more internal work than you would have preferred? I think it was, well number one, it was definitely a slow evolution. Because it was like book after book, after book, after you know, talk about a journey. I mean, you really have to journey, and take what it is that you learn and apply it. So it's not just about like being a bookworm, or being intelligent. You have to have an IQ high enough to absorb what it is that you're doing and being able to assimilate it into your life, and then enter your actions. But I think that as a young person and then going out there in the world as a teenager and having like sort to make it on my own, there was a lot of pain, I think that I carried and a lot of forgiveness that had to go on in my life. And part of that journey to forgiving the people in my life that I felt I needed to forgive, was understanding them. And that was really it for me when I realized that... And I really don't know what did it, but I went well, if I can't have a perspective on the why of who they've been to me in my life, then I'm never going to be able to forgive them with a whole heart. Because without understanding how are you going to forgive? Because then it's a surface, it's a bandaid. It's a, yeah I forgive you, cause I wanna feel good in this moment. But if I really understand where you came from and knowing that you had no choice in it, not that you... But we know that life is hard. We know that being in the body is difficult. And being in the mind is even more difficult. And so if you can really, you know look at the pattern of someone's life and say, well, they got to this point with no tools. And then without those tools, outwardly express themselves the way they did because there was just nothing. You know it's like having all like the sheet rock, and that this, and the wood and everything. And you're like, I'm ready to build my house. And there's not a nail in sight. There's not a hammer in sight. Like nothing's gonna happen and you're rained on. So, you know if you can recognize that people don't have the tools, it takes a lot of stress off of taking things personally. Right, but forgiveness is tough because it requires you like there's for a lot of people, identity is built on this resentment that you hold towards this how this person or family member wronged you in a certain way. And it's scary to let go of that because what would that mean? Like then suddenly I have to take responsibility for this or if I forgive them, yes maybe I'll feel better, but this whole construct upon which I've kind of crafted how I see the world and myself crumbles. Well, that's what it is because you don't get to be a victim anymore. Being a victim is a really safe place to be because there's always an excuse for why things aren't working out- But there was a dopamine hit with it. It can be very intoxicating to like indulge in that. Indulge in that. And it is, and people do it. And that's why they turn to alcohol and drugs, the way that they do. But I think one thing that you just said that's really important is that, I think that people view forgiveness as, letting someone get away with what they did. Like it means, if I forgive you, it's okay what you did. It's not even remotely true. Forgiveness is your own personal freedom. And that's all it is. You no longer are held by this act or this person because the truth is, the act whatever it was they did to you is over, right? It's never gonna happen again because it's done. The only thing you take with you is the emotion. So you're carrying that emotion with you, your entire life. And then there's the point where you go, I have to let go of this emotion, because I need my freedom back, right? Right, I mean, you're the one who's suffering, that other person may be completely unaware. They may not even know.
Yeah, so basically you're punishing yourself. You're punishing yourself your entire life. So do you want your personal freedom? Can you have faith in the process that if you forgive someone, and you have that freedom, you're going to gain the thing that you couldn't see. You know, that which you have a belief in, that you never thought was possible. It's only possible once you truly forgive. I'm a big advocate for forgiveness. I think it is the most healing emotion you can have. And the only emotion that's light enough to live with. (laughs) Well, look at you. You could be a therapist, I'mma like sign up right now. (both laugh) If this acting thing doesn't work out, you know Tom cruise, whatever. Go into like forgiveness advocacy full time, full time. Yeah, it's a journey, isn't it? Right? Because it doesn't matter who you are. There's somebody, or something you have to forgive. Yeah, everybody. And it's easier to do that than hold on. Right. I wish people would do it more, honestly. But, we dilute ourselves into thinking the easier path is to hold onto it. Like, there's the power of that, right? Well, the ego is complete. I think with the human body, like in the human mind. Like we... Again, back to patterns, right? You see these patterns with people where it's like, where are they holding onto their ego? Like, what is it? Which part of their ego is holding them back? And what is it that they value most that their ego is driving, you know, is like taking that train has left the station and you can't pull them back from that, right? So identifying that is key because you can't really be free, if there's ego behind anything. You really have to... I think it's a constant battle. For me it's a daily battle of looking at something. If I'm saying something to someone, if there's advice I wanna give, it's like what is this rooted in Maggie? Right. Is it rooted in like you having more knowledge? Is it rooted in you being right? Is it rooted in how someone's going to perceive you? Like, what is that? Or is it completely genuine? And if it is great. Is that process, do you think that process is easier or harder for you given your public profile? Like when you're a celebrity, or you're on billboards and all that kind of stuff, obviously it's very easy for your ego to get outsized. But that also brings it up, like it makes it very present, like oh my God, like my ego, my attachment to this identity and how other people see me and my future, you know career trajectory and Hollywood like, that makes... Like you're in the business of ego. So you're forced to confront it in a certain way and in a manner that like a normal civilian wouldn't. Right. So, to me it feels like it can go like, because it's so present in your life it can either really go horribly wrong, or it compels you to face it and work through it so that you can have a healthier approach to life. I think luckily, you know as far as the Hollywood thing goes, I think my saving grace in Hollywood, like has been like that worthlessness, that feeling of like that void. That thing that I can't fill. So- Right, cause if I'm like, you know in the Tiber with Tom cruise and I still feel like we're more (murmurs), you know, like then really there's something that I need to look at that. Because it doesn't make any sense. Right, and so that's a struggle. And then I think in the personal that's where my ego has been tested the most. Like not professionally but actually personally. Because you know, I think you get into relationships and it's funny because when you love someone, for most people it's more important to be right, than it is to have peace. Yeah.
Right. And I don't think that's worth it, right? And there was a time where it was just such, you know as somewhat volatile person where that really was where I was at, it was like, I think for most of my life I felt wrong. I felt like I didn't belong. I didn't deserve, I didn't all these things. So wherever I had the power to have that, I wanted it. You know, whether I was going to be in relationship, or friendship, whatever, it was. Like I was gonna take my power back in that specific area. And that's all ego, right? But it's also, you know the only time that we really, and someone said this to me, this is not mine I wish it was. But the only time we really get offended or defenseless, and it really affects us, is when something affects our self perception. So- Or there's just enough uncomfortable truth in it that it pushes that button. It pushes that button because like there's something I perceived about myself that is now being messed with. And that self perception is so strong, whereas like, oh, okay, let's say I'm Maggie, and I'm loving the happy person. And then somebody said to a coworker of mine, you know she was a little grumpy the other day. And you hear that, and you're like, what? I'm not grumpy. It's messing with my self perception. I see myself as a very happy person. And so how dare he say, I'm not a happy person. I'm happy 99% of the time. And why would he perceive me like that? Why does it matter? Why does it matter how someone's perceiving you? That's your own self perception. Yeah, because you're holding onto this identity, that you're a happy go lucky person that gets along with everybody. That's being challenged. That's right, that's being challenged. But isn't it amazing that's something that to your point we've built up. I built that about myself. No, one's like, no one's happy all the time. No, one's fair all the time. No, one's any of these things all the time. So to even have a self perception that allows for that is all ego. Like how can you call yourself one thing that's ridiculous. So it's interesting breaking down the self perception that I think has been the hardest thing. Self perception in my personal life. Not even in the public. Like for me I sort of come to terms with, you're never gonna please the public it's too big. It's too vast. There's too many categories, too many opinions, like I feel really sorry for the people who... You know, I have friends, celebrities, who like, they're on the Instagram, oh my God. I can't even imagine. I'm like, are you kidding me? No wonder, you're always anxious in a tail spin. They're always thinking about, I don't read any of that. It seems like you've learned all that. When you were overseas, though like you had to learn that the hard way before, you know Instagram became Instagram. I was like that when I'd be up for like a big like commercial campaign, and I wouldn't get it. And my agent would call or my manager and she'd say, oh I'm really sorry, they gave it to someone else. I'm like, okay. And she's like, it was really big job. And I'm like, yeah, okay. What am I gonna do? Like, what is my fear, or frustration, or anxiety, going to contribute to a situation that was never mine. Right, but if you're in that, you know to use your description of feeling you know this worthlessness, you know the undeveloped soul, will crave affirmation of that word. Like, tell me why I didn't get it. Tell me all the things I did wrong. I'm like, oh yes, see, I am worth. Like you're affirming that.
You're looking for proof. Yeah, sure. And that's what traumatized people do. They look for proof all the time. And that's why, when you're in a relationship with a traumatized person, I mean any relationship intimate, or business, whatever, if you're looking for proof, you're gonna find it, right? So, if you wanna feel a certain way, no matter what someone says, they can be like, hey, you want a coffee? And you're like, why'd you ask me like that? There's always something to look for, that proves to you, I knew it, I knew he didn't like me. I knew he wasn't happy I was here. I knew she didn't care about me. And whatever it is-
It's pushing everyone away. It's a prison that I know I've lived it. I don't live it anymore, thank God. But like, I know it really well. And I think it's something that is the great equalizer. I think we all, at some point in our lives, are looking for that proof. Some people look for proof that they're amazing. Like they think they are, and they become very successful (laughs). So it does turn out well for some people I have to say even if they're delusional. It's kind of like the fake it til you make it mentality. But I mean, they have the smarts to back it up. I mean, they obviously can. It is funny how the human mind, what, like if somebody just carries themselves like they know what they're doing, like we'll just get on board with that. Well you know that whole thing, when you walk into a place that you're not supposed to be in. I mean, you know those people that broke into the White House, right? When the Obama's were in the White House, they just walked through the front door. No one even checked their names. They were like, we're here for the party. Likewise, if Tom cruise walks into a room, like everybody, you know, I'm sure there's a crazy energy with that. Crazy. That, that guy's carrying. Yeah, the room goes completely silent. There's an attention to that which walked into the room. (Rich and Maggie laugh) You know, like there's no mistake, who it is. Well, I do think that you should start a psychology podcast. (Maggie laughs) This is gonna be your new thing. Be a new thing. I've always soft of like, the way that I've moved in life with friends, or whatever like I'm figuring it out. Are you the friend, that your friends call up, who need to be talked through something. A hundred percent. Yeah, I can see that. But that's also because I have compassion, but I also do have a logic too. And I will tell you if there's- You good the feedback. If you're making a move, that's not good for you, I'm gonna tell you, because I love you. I mean, if I didn't love you, I wouldn't care to have the conversation. I think that for me because I've struggled, in the way that I've struggled. And when I see people, I love struggling. I don't want that for them.
Yeah of course not. And so I'll do anything that I can so that they don't have to feel the things that I've felt. I think that's it with all of it, animals- Being the best kind of impact. Yeah exactly. Channeling something, that's actually worth something, So you sit in a room and just feel bad all the time. Like what's the point? No, nobody wants that. There's actually no point. Nobody wants that. (Maggie laughs) All right, well, let's wrap this up. That was... You're amazing. That was inspirational. That was really fun. Yeah, I enjoyed that. And Romeo enjoyed it too clearly. Yeah he did I know. (Maggie laughs) He's the chillest. He's awesome. German shepherd I've ever seen. And he's young. Mostly we were talking about this before. Like most German shepherds are very kind of like manic. They can't make eye contact really. And they're always kind of circling and pacing around- I think he's also just swimming, and being the only dog right now. 'Cause I have another shepherd mix at home and then I have a little Terrier named Don Julio. And as you might imagine, Don Julio gets a lot of attention. He's ridiculous. And so I think he feels a little like- Romeo's getting- And he's getting all of his man phil, so many men here. He's just like yes. He's with me all the time. Well, he's welcome anytime. Oh, that's awesome. Okay, well he's coming back then. Cool, we'll come back and talk to me again sometime Yeah, let's do it
That's super fun. In the meantime, Maggie's easy to find on the internet. Maggie Q everywhere. Qeep Up, Q-E-E-P U-P, Is it qeepup.com? It's qeepupnation.com And anywhere else you wanna direct people? I mean QeepUp Nation would be awesome, because we have a blog about food and health and lifestyle. And we have a lot of veggie recipes and different things on there and self care tips and Frank Littman as well. Our buddy has also given a bunch of like anti-aging all kinds of stuff on there. You know, we're just talking about stuff that we hope people wanna know about. And the information is free. You don't have to buy anything, just go to the blog and read some of the stuff we're doing. Cause it's only gonna benefit you. Cool.
Yeah. All right. Okay, that was delightful. Thank you so much. This is the most professional podcast atmosphere I've ever been in It's hard to be a pimp. (Maggie laughs) Gotta step it up now. It's hard out there for a pimp. Yeah, all right.
