Maggie Haberman: The Trump Whisperer Comes to Town

all right hi everyone welcome to today's speaker events the Trump Whisperer comes to time my name is iWin I'm a fourth year in a college student in economics and political science on campus I work as the managing editor of Utah cargo's Independence new newspaper cargo maroon and I'm really honored to introduce today's speaker with us Maggie heberman Maggie has [Applause] Maggie has been a White House correspondent in the New York Times since 2015. she was part of a team that won the Pulitzer praise in 2018 for reporting on Donald Trump's advisors and their connections to Russia she previously covered the Trump Administration and continues to cover Donald Trump and politics in Washington today she will be discussing her new book confidence man confidence man the making of Donald Trump and the break-in of America was Mark leibovic Mark leibovic is a staff writer in the Atlantic and the author of thank you for your servitude Donald Trump's Washington and the price of submission before joining the Atlantic he spent a decade as the chief National correspondent for the New York Times magazine in Washington DC before the event starts please turn off or silent your phone to minimize distractions when it is time for questions a microphone will be moving throughout the room please stay seated and raise your hand if you're interested in more events like this the iops pritzker fellow Steve Hayes will moderate a conversation with congresswoman Liz Cheney on Monday at 5 30 PM in Mendel Hall where she will talk about her career in the future of the GOP then I'll search it at 3 30 PM in the IOP house the audience will have the chance to talk to journalists Kerry Karen blockinger from The Marshall Project in the event restoration the power of narrative and one women's Journey from prison to journalism visit politics.uchiccargo.edu for more information about upcoming events now please join me in welcoming Maggie and Mark uh hi everyone um I'm Mark leibovich as you just heard um it is an honor to be here at the IOP this is a great organization and to appear with Maggie who is my longtime colleague and friend at the Times uh is a added honor and you know to sort of have known Maggie over the years and sort of seen the process of you know the Trump coming into office and her beginning the book and her just sort of somehow remaining upright through all of this and you know and then you add to this The Madness of having a number one best-selling book now two weeks in a row uh you should all know this this is this is the stuff we pay attention to um is great and I before I start and before we turn it over to the star of the day um a couple of plugs uh one for the book the book is great and you know I am someone who having written my own book I had to read every every preceding Trump book that came before many of them so others didn't have to but also I could be versed in all of this this is and you know you get to reading these things and you think what else could possibly be said about this what else is there possibly to learn trust me on this uh this is a big and substantial and Incredibly important and satisfying read um the thing about Maggie is she has a reputation rightly as a scoop machine you know she has broken some of the most important news of these last several I mean not just starting with Trump but I mean over a couple of decades but certainly of the Trump years um and you know you could talk all day about those Scoops and about you know she could we could talk about her Pulitzer that you want for this but ultimately what I think Maggie is so good at and people don't appreciate enough is she's a great explanatory journalist meaning she doesn't just like throw scope Scoops out there she has the depth of knowledge and a historical perspective on this guy that that sort of embeds every paragraph with with context that makes you smarter in addition to the the basic information that makes us smarter so anyway I'm a huge fan I'm honored to be here and with that uh we will start um I guess and we're going to be all over the place because I you know this just this is just all over the place Maggie um I have seen you several times over the years bristle at the title of being a trump Whisperer uh as recently as about 10 minutes ago 10 seconds 10 seconds ago Yes actually yeah okay um why do you bristle at this well first of all thank you all for being here thank you to the IOP uh for hosting this um I'm a huge fan of this institution huge fan of Mark leibovich really really fun to be doing this with you so thank you um because it's uh because it's not you know the context of the Whisperer comes from Horse Whisperer as you know which is you're soothing the horse and you're and that's you know he's a subject who I cover and and you know I don't in The Horse Whisperer the horse doesn't turn to the Whisperer and call them a maggot which is what he called me you know earlier this year that was true um and actually even more recently so um you know I think it just sort of um it misconstrues what's happening he's a subject who I cover the same way that I have covered where did Giuliani or Mike Bloomberg or Hillary Clinton or at more of a remove three presidents and um I think that uh you know he reacts differently to coverage and I think that's what the difference is right um but so that's why I we're still at it got it okay no more no more Whisperer here by the way no one call her whisper in the questions um by the way at the end of the I'm going to talk for about I'm going to ask Maggie questions for about 30 minutes and then we're going to turn to audience questions so think of questions and we will do this in a wonderfully orderly fashion um there is a scene in the book why don't we start from in 2016 because you know obviously this book is a historical perspective but um I personally sort of tuned him out until about maybe 10 years ago until I absolutely kind of had to when he was you know in our lives every day there's a scene in the book where you talk about him getting elected and you writing an email to one of I think it was Elizabeth B Miller one of our bosses saying you don't know I have no idea what's coming it was it was Adam negerni Adam to Gurney one of our former colleagues you have no idea what's coming meaning this presidency is unlike anything we will ever cover before again ever have covered ever we'll see again um has it been about what you expected has it been worse has it been better um you know um it's it was what I expected I mean it was uh you know not not always the specifics but certainly the arc um and the Arc of sort of the chaos and the Arc of the self-destruction and those are the the two Hallmarks of how Donald Trump functions and then you know amid all that chaos and the middle of that dysfunction you know some things do get done and and that's what has happened throughout his entire life too now his business career was never what he said it was you know I would argue that the building successes that he had early on um you know he never really duplicated them because he he did he did licensing agreements to put his names on building they were not the same thing um and he was never the business whiz that he claimed but uh you know things happened in his life he became a reality reality television star and without which he wouldn't become president um but there's just so much dysfunction and and you know dust clouds surrounding everything he does um January 6th um didn't surprise me but it was a it was a sickening day and it was sickening to watch um the hold he has maintained on the party um beginning again very shortly after leaving office that has surprised me do you think and this is obviously hypothetical how do you think Trump would have reacted to it some stronger pushback from the Kevin McCarthy's and the Mitch McConnells and the Lindsey Grahams of the world um I mean I think he would have reacted poorly but I think it would have been very important I think that you know McConnell while he did not vote for impeachment on the second trial did give a speech that was pretty excoriating of trump McCarthy did give a speech on the floor uh shortly after January 6 saying that Trump were some responsibility but then if McCarthy doesn't fly down to Mar-A-Lago I think you know within two weeks after Trump leaves office I'm not sure that Trump you know recovers the way he did and Graham too I mean you know there was a very memorable moment uh on January 6 when Graham is at the podium and he says something like you know uh enough is enough or you know I'm I'm out right and no he wasn't and I bumped into Graham twice at Trump's Pro you know around Trump um during doing interviews for this book so um you know yeah I think that it wouldn't necessarily have impacted you know every voter I still think Trump has a hold on about 30 percent of yeah of the base um but it would have impacted enough did you ever think in the hours of election night 2016 or even the days after that that it could have gone differently that he actually might have reverted to Something in the ballpark of a serious you know quasi-pivoting president who actually was you know took the job more seriously than he appeared to from outside nope you did okay no and and because there was just you know it isn't just that he you know doesn't like being you know within a behavioral Norm he actively prefers the other and seeks it out so you know he um when I was reporting for the book I I found from talking to some people that bill Barr his last attorney general well actually his last Senate confirmed attorney general had said to some people that he felt like sorry what's the fact true it's true um that he that he that he felt like he had he had been sort of baffled at Trump's you know preference for people like or interest in people like Roger Stone or Rick Grinnell the former odni yeah and he came to realize that he really just kind of gravitates toward them and so that is that is who he is now I didn't expect a fight about crowd size on literally his first animal and I didn't expect him to go to the the in front of the wall of Heroes at the CIA and give a campaign speech where he talked about that but I but I should have um you know this is fundamentally who he is and one of the things that I think what always looks like him picking a fight or taking the in times of great stress he tends to burrow down on some tiny slight yeah and he obsesses on it for days and days and days and the crowd size thing was one of them as he was stepping into this incredibly stressful situation it's actually it's a great point I hadn't thought of that um there is speaking of Bill Barr there is a detail that I remember reading somewhere I forgot who it was it all kind of Blends together but he he said Trump once told him that when he tweets you want to put just enough crazy in there it was in Bill Barr's book it was actually it was in his own book that's true I've seen various accounts over the years of people asking Trump you know how much of this is an act you know how much of you this are you actually you're not really as crazy as sometimes you come across I mean I've heard various takes on it what's what's yours yes and no I mean I you know I think that um sometimes this is one of the things that it makes it so confusing for both people trying to interpret him from this side of the wall and then people who are on his side of the wall yeah you know they encounter something similar sometimes the all caps tweets were him being very angry and sometimes he would send them as he was laughing and you know knowing which one it was uh could be could be hard to tell um you know he things that would bother other politicians generally didn't bother him um you know negative coverage that would bother other people about policy or about [Music] um things that went to the heart of his self-image that does bother him which is what because there are a lot of things that you would think would but didn't um his intelligence so he the the one of the times he got very angry at me during the presidency uh in in 2017 was he saw me on television on Charlie Rose's show which he only saw because he was flipping commercials during Lou Dobbs um and this is this is a true story um and he saw me on television saying that he watches a lot of television and he got angry that I would say that he watches a lot of Television because of course that's not true um and he takes that as an in he takes that as some kind of a dig at his intelligence as opposed to just a fact um but he's very sensitive on that um things that cut at his sense of strength or you know manliness right those are those are things that things about his net worth those are things about his self-image that he takes significant issue with and that he will react to in a way he doesn't react to other things because I mean the normal most people who are really wealthy are a little or kind of embarrassed about it or try to be I mean there's a level of humility that certainly politicians try to assume that he never really subscribed to at all I mean he sort of losers talk right well I mean remember suckers and losers I mean his whole you know his whole thing is you know rules are for suckers and losers you know certain behavioral uh characteristics are for suckers and losers um you know there's obviously been a decades-long question about his actual net worth and what he's in his wealth and you know he went to a lot of effort to keep himself on the Forbes wealth list um you know he was famously deposed in a lawsuit he brought against Tim O'Brien the the journalist who's now at Bloomberg um and Tim won the suit after a couple of years but in the deposition Trump said that his you know his net worth goes up and down with his feelings and so you know this is right as it does right from my Uber to the airport with my feet but so he is he is very sensitive about anybody figuring out his actual Financial State why do you call it confidence man and what did you mean by it um so there's there's two meanings obviously um uh one is certainly that he is somebody who believes in projecting confidence in in all scenarios that's true the other is that you know literally a confidence man is somebody who gains people's trusts and Trust in order to take things from them and I think that both definitions work here uh did he like the title I am very very uh strongly told he did not like the title okay um this you've probably gotten this along but how what have you heard about his reaction to the book and through you and how your promotion of it so he was really upset about the first piece of reporting I put out which was eight months before the book came out about how he was flushing documents down the toilet um in uh in the white house um and uh yeah anyway and so um that was that was one does but um he was very upset about that um very upset and then I I think that for him I think he was I think he was seeing it as sort of a toilet story as opposed to how I was seeing it which was a document story right yeah and a documents destruction story um he was very angry about that and then I think that I think that other pieces that have come out since he's been a little less bothered by um you know he's I don't he's not going to read it so I mean it's not I I his reactions are based on what he's told about what's in it I'll talk to you again I don't know that question I mean so when somebody asked me you know he gave you these these interviews for this book and I explained that he gave an interview to almost every single book author who was writing a book about him last year and there were a lot of people writing books about him last year one of whom was Michael Wolff who wrote fire and fury which was the first book length account of the dysfunction in the Trump white house so you know he he rarely totally closes a door but who knows I'll cover him whether he does or doesn't what was the experience like interviewing him for the book versus your experience talking to him for other stories you've done over the years that's a good question so he um in a weird way for the first interview he was strangely more valuable um he was in salesman mode and uh I was asking a lot of questions about history about his his past in New York because he's the only person who can answer some of those questions even if I know that there's a very strong chance that he's not telling me the truth um but I still have to ask the questions and um he was he was he seemed delighted to be talking about anything other than his presidency right at points during that during that interview which I was pretty struck by um and he really was trying to be selling um it was not the same as certainly talking to him on the phone or you know in interviews prior to him becoming president and when he was president so much of it was just sort of rolling heavy over the Resolute desk that it was just an entirely different thing how much of I mean he seems oddly nostalgic in his own way and I think one of the reasons in the pre-presidency I mean you were there for the pre-residency you wanted to talk to him about topics for this and you know Nostalgia is almost a lot of what he built his campaign on it's make America great again whenever this was whatever this was um but you know to some degree you know I think that that's probably a way to get him to open up in some ways yeah I think that that was part of why he was valuable I think that he was um he really he lives in the past I mean that's just you know he and and you know the past was always better and there's a strange kind of preserved and Amber quality stuck in like 1984 about how he in New York City about how he views the world um but he was clearly happy to be talking about you know long ago corrupt politicians long ago District Attorneys long ago um he prefers looking backwards always and trying to get him to look I tried to get him in the third interview to talk about 2024 and that was not what he wanted to talk about you know he sort of he said 20 2024 sort of quizzically um he would much rather be looking backwards as someone who likes to look backwards how do you how do you think he projects forward like how he will be remembered like you know I mean he seems to have great disdain for the question of Legacy I mean there's a anecdote I don't know if it was in your book or someone's were on January 6th um people were kind of rushing in and saying Mr President you know your legacy is going to be tarnished and he said you know if I lose this if I lose to Joe Biden that would be my legacy and something I'll be dead something like that but but how much of this do you think is just sort of him trying to just run up the score before before the buzzer rings and he's done yeah I mean I think that is what it is I mean he's not he doesn't think about Legacy he doesn't think about almost anything in the normal ways that people think about things right he doesn't think about Legacy that way he doesn't think about press coverage that way um you know Legacy is I was president and you're not and that is a a score running I mean other presidents have said that basically I mean jokingly usually but yes yeah yeah I mean and and and you're right that others have said it um but others also look at you know I mean he look he does have the list of things that he believes he accomplished and he will talk about those and he talks about those not infrequently um and then sometimes they're not real um but uh but but some of them are and uh you know I'll give you a for instance on Legacy on how he thinks about it Legacy is is almost some kind of a living organism where it just depends on how people are receiving him in any given moment as opposed to how he wants to be remembered he wants to be remembered as long as you as long as the right people like him so he was complaining to people in the last year that uh he couldn't he couldn't talk about the vaccine for covid right which was you know arguably one of the most important arguably one of the most important parts of his presidency and something that you know like was he literally in the lab designing it no but like but he did push for the time frame um on working with um the drug manufacturers and if you get if you get blamed for everything you get credit sure um he was complaining that he can't talk about it because of the the quote unquote radical right um it's pretty telling you but it's so much of what he does is about you know what's the line you know where are my people going I must go leave them you know and sure like that's right that's a lot of it well also um Criminal Justice Reform is something that probably no other Republican would have done or or I mean I know there was some energy for the right from the right from the cooks from yes that yes to actually do that yeah but he doesn't like to talk about that either well he doesn't like it I mean it's that one is um that was very much in his mind a Jared Kushner thing and it was uh to your point it's actually a topic on which a lot of ground had been plowed prior to the term presidency right um Jared Kushner cared about it because his father was in jail and he or had been in jail and he he took it as a very personal issue um Trump signed it I asked him here I'll read it to you if I may yes I'll borrow this copy of confidence I sent Trump a list of fact checks oh I saw that I was going to ask you about this and they look like this and these are his Sharpie notes um that after our interviews and one was about um I asked him about Criminal Justice Reform which I knew that he had been expressing regret about signing because the Republican base is just not they don't like it right at all and especially you know right now when Republicans are trying to hit crime as such an issue in the midterms so I asked about him repeatedly expressing regret over Criminal Justice Reform you know will he comment on this and he writes back in his Sharpie did it for African Americans nobody else could have gotten it done got zero credit and underline number line zero and so that's you know he did it but he regrets doing it and I think if he felt you know when he says zero credit what he means is he thought that he in his mind he literally was doing this for for black voters sure as if the only people impacted by the criminal justice system um uh would be black and therefore would transactionally support him right and because he didn't get the support he felt that he should um it wasn't worth doing right in the same way I guess last week didn't he suggested that the Jews were ungrateful yes um and should have vote American Jews Americans even more as opposed to Israeli Jews who would elect him prime minister according to him correct yes yeah um so um I was going to ask you about okay so there is this great um in the middle of the book in the uh in the picture section you know Maggie includes a lot of the fact check sheets she sent down to Mar-A-Lago or wherever he was and he marks it up but what is it like when you are at the end of a book and you have this marked up copy someone that just say false false false you know he's spinning in some ways I mean what do you do with all this let's put it in the book I mean I you know so number one he um uh he was two weeks late in answering it I gave them I think it was a month and I kept asking for it and it took a really long time to get it back and they finally got it back and a I thought it was I I just ran you know the bulk of it in the book because a it was the fairest way to do it yeah um I wasn't gonna you know some of it like some of the things are definitely you know he's claiming they're not true I know we're true um you know and I and I stand by the reporting on things that he's saying or not um but I also thought it was a an interesting look at the way that he works and I thought that would be sort of revealing because if you read through them he starts out um kind of aggressive and and and testy I think it's kind of bored like you can see it's like false false false there's a lot of Truth to that yeah and then and then right and then he gets engaged at the end and and the ones that he chose to confirm related to like calling Melania then canals his his girlfriend at the time before she screaming his wife out of Central Casting actually some truth to that um was the response or like confirming that he had taken Marla Maples to a Michael Bolton concert after he had won her back from Michael Bolton it's just and then ever almost everything else was almost everything else was false fantasy question yeah and so forth so so I assume these were printed out he marked them up with his hand and then you were sent back an email with them is that generally I was I was I was sent them in a scam yeah I was sent a scan of them and um and the last line of it is good night exclamation point because he had apparently been doing them at night how um so I assume you've gotten dozens if not hundreds of these over the years right definitely not hundreds um I mean I've gotten a lot of a lot of you know Trump markups do you keep them all no why not all right fine I retract the question um so you have uh for the statistic reasons we do this um gone from being a newspaper reporter to a book writer um the last couple of years uh what's that been like uh it's different um it's different I I the the anxiety around uh you know how that something will be received when it's out in the wild to you know are people going to read this like this sort of understand what I'm trying to do with it because you know it's not it's not fire and fury it's a different kind of book and so um uh so it's been it's been a transition and it's been a trend it's it was difficult also just because the Trump story itself doesn't stop there was so much news happening as I was reporting the book and that was complicated as well did you fall into a book writing routine no you didn't no I I fell into nothing um my computer you know walked around the house with me into whatever room I happened to be in and if something you know was clicking then I was doing it I you know generally I did my interviews in my living room but you did your interviews yeah um but uh or if they were Zoom ones in my in my bedroom but uh uh yeah there was no there was no pattern did and so you got it done I mean we're just done it's definitely done yeah which is an incredible accomplishment I mean finish like what is it 500 pages 600 Pages 508 Pages it feels much shorter but it's um no I mean to be done is amazing so then you get anxious for a million different reasons you let out in the wild you read a few reviews they're good at least the ones I saw are good um how does that feel I mean to know that you survived better than the alternative um like you're there it's look it feels good I mean I I'm I'm very gratified by the reaction to this I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm really really really humbled by it um I I have spent the last um six years just sort of I feel a little bit like you know the person who's kind of like there's bricks falling and you're running and you're kind of so I'm I'm trying to come out from that Crouch a little bit so but it feels good I mean another thing about Maggie that you should know she's a reporter's reporter um and you know I'm you know Jennifer steinhauer who is who invited us as a former colleague of of ours at the times you know we've all been in newsrooms and stuff and one of the first tenets of being in The Newsroom is you don't want to be part of the story and then all of a sudden starting about a month ago um and you know Maggie's been a quasi-public and a very well-known journalist for a long time she is you know you got to promote the book you got to go out there you got to do media and stuff What's um what's it been like to come out from that side of the uh the notebook and camera and be on the other side it's not my favorite um it's a shock yeah I don't um I don't really like talking about myself as much as uh I'm required right no just because the to your point we um were not the story I mean one of my one of my favorite um lines in any journalism movie and one of I think the best journalism movies is Broadcast News and there's a great bit where Albert Brooks is uh watching a news story that William Hurt has shot with a date rape victim and he includes a a scene where the camera cuts to there's a second camera on William Hurt and it cuts to him and he's like he's crying and everyone's a little taken aback watching it and someone says you know I thought it was great afterwards and Albert Brooks says yes let's never forget we're the real story not them and he's not wrong and so um and and that's uh you know it's it's just it's just a different thing from going through this experience what have you learned about the way the media sort of disseminates and filters trump-related news that is a good question um second time she said that so yes well you've asked you a good question um I think that so I guess I would put it this way I think that I was trying to um looking at how I've looked at a lot of coverage a lot of old coverage for the book and you know there's obviously been a huge discussion about um media criticism and you know how did the media handle him in 2016 um you know one area where I thought he didn't get enough attention was his business ties in the 2016 campaign I do think that there's there could have and should have been more of a look at what does it look like to have a possible president who's got you know a tower with his name on it in Turkey it's just fundamentally different and so I think there should have been more there um but in general I think that voters had all the information they really needed to understand you know sort of the Baseline of of Donald Trump um I think there are individual stories at least for myself that I would go back and do differently but in general I think the coverage was pretty rigorous where I think there is a significant criticism is um the 70s 80s and 90s in New York and nationally As Trump was just mythmaking about himself and and selling himself as this Titan of Industry commensurate with like you know the biggest tycoons on Wall Street which was just not true but you read this coverage and I'm it's like why is he in the same sentence as like Leo or you know um or Jack Welch or right and like and so um and I think that it was pretty clear when I would talk to reporters who covered him in those decades it was pretty clear that people knew that he lied a lot and you know yet the the the impetus and and the impulse of news organizations is to give people the benefit of the doubt right and there are a lot of times you couldn't prove that what he was saying wasn't true and so you know I just think that it's and there was never somebody who sought media attention the way he did I mean one of the things that I remember a white a very senior White House Aid saying to me in 2017 was that people just don't appreciate how much time he spends trying to keep himself in the news he was as president I mean the presidency comes with a fair amount of built-in media coverage um right and so so I just think that um you know he exists in 10-minute increments of time and we only exist in 24 hours at least at the time and now we we existed even less and the symbiosis of that I think how that worked was not really clear to me until I started doing this book um we're going to move to questions in a few minutes there are a few uh kind of lightning roundish questions I have for you um no I I actually I'm interested in how his relationship has changed post White House with three people I care about uh or I'm interested in Melania that's where it's just going oh we had dinner last night uh I I I think the relationship is is what it was before um uh which is among other things somewhat inscrutable to Outsiders right uh Ivanka and Jared I guess those are the other two I'll put them in a couple not great uh you know there was uh he was enraged after their testimony particularly hers before the January 6th committee um yeah and when that was used at the public hearing by Liz Channing knew exactly what she was doing yeah when they used that testimony and um and they all did so the Nebraska instead of Benny Thompson um and it worked and he was very angry and there was something of a thaw over the summer um but uh it's still not great so he I assume he paid pretty close attention to the January sixth hearings um he certainly paid close attention to the fact that his family members were short on video I think I don't I don't think he was sitting you know eating popcorn but I think he was he but he definitely was aware of what was happening yeah he talks a lot about loyalty how loyal is he really to his kids um you know you met we talked about Jared and Ivanka um the boys um uh he's actually um as I understand it quite close to Eric Trump now because Eric Trump is the person who has among other things been dealing with the brunt of the business stuff and the businesses are under a lot of scrutiny at the moment facing legal pressures there's a trial related to his company that's starting very soon uh and is expected to last several weeks um just the New York one this is the New York one uh Manhattan district attorney um in you know his son Don Jr um is his firstborn and his namesake and is always going to Bear the brunt of whatever but uh yeah um I don't think I mean Trump one of the things that was striking to people in the White House was even as he had Jared Ivanka working there and there's a whole separate issue as to whether it's you know you should have your children in the White House there are nepotism laws for a reason um he um even they are not exempt from right you know criticism from him or what he's just you know it's all to a point right uh one last question before we move to audience questions um what is a what do you think the single biggest misconception about Donald Trump out there is whether it's a exaggerated quality or unappreciated quality or what have you um good question it is yeah that's a good question thank you thank you yes it is a good question mark um uh he uh there is a belief that he is both more strategic than he is and also um I I don't like this word but dumber than he is um he is not uh he is incapable of strategic thinking but he is much more calculating moment to moment Than People realize and um he is often playing some game that only makes sense to him um but but I think that people do underestimate him a fair amount uh I lied I have one more question okay cool do you think he really won do you think he really thinks he won the election I have no idea I think at this point I think he I think he probably has convinced himself um but I don't think it matters at all I think what he's saying is extremely dangerous extremely dangerous correct yeah I agree with that um let's go to audience questions um and I'm going to just alternate left to right and uh I guess stand up to deliver your question and we'll start with you oh sorry yeah we're gonna bring them yeah so there'll be a little Gap and their Mike's going to come over and then you can talk into the mic pretty much um realizing you're not a physician or a psychiatrist or a technologist Maggie but uh from all of your work and with with Trump do you have an opinion whether he is how perhaps I perceive it or others a very insecure individual oh that yes I don't think you need to be a therapist for that one I mean I think yeah I mean what I the way I write I write about it is just that he is a you know he is a a narcissistic drama Seeker with a a fragile ego and and and that he is often covering up that fragile ego with all these behaviors thank you sure uh you in the back of the glasses yeah hi uh my name is Young so uh Harry Frankfurt a philosopher had a book on and Trump is often uh reported by people as a liar but this is a very strong statement it has very high stake sometimes he's not lying because he's not focused on the specific thing but very diffusive and uh his focus is always uh panoramic rather than particular so I and also he was considered to be the king of knowing everything because he knows a lot of things much better than anybody else as he claims so I wonder uh how does this unfocused improvising and diffusive Trump stand in the duality of the good and bad side of trump in your books prologue and what is this Trump's Legacy on the U.S presidency it's a good question I mean I I think it's one in the same I think that you know the way that you just framed the question is I think the way the question was often framed about him which was you know he's not lying necessarily he's just but you know I guess I would flip it around on you when I ask him and I write about this in the book you know what you were doing on January 6 were you watching television and he says no I rarely had the television on I don't think that's you know embellishing I I don't think that's improvising I mean yes I guess it's it's literally improvising but another word for it is lying um because he you know he knows he often had the television on and every one of his aides would often talk about that um I think that there is um and this is sort of the benefit of the doubt piece that I'm talking about um there's no question that sometimes he improvises and I think you you raise a an important point which is not everything is the same as every other thing with him right I mean so some of his um some of his behaviors you know We're Not always completely at odds with previous presidents for instance some of his behaviors are not at odds with you know people in other Industries um the problem is is that when you have all of those behaviors in a presidency it's very very different and so you know a businessman saying that his building is taller than it is is weird you know that you're adding a bunch of floors onto your building that literally don't exist but it's not you know it's not harming anyone it has no ramifications uh it's just that the presidency is is so fundamentally different um you know I think that by any definition Donald Trump had led a remarkable Life by the time he became president and part of that is for the reasons that you identified but I just think that the matter of the presidency is not about one man and this President his presidency became very much about one man and it's impossible for me to divorce those things [Applause] you in the third row yeah you yeah I stand there we go right person stood up this is a short breaking news question they issued the subpoena to Trump the New York Times is reporting what do you think he's throwing at the wall right now and what do you predict he does next week not nothing it's really not um this is a one thing that I think gets misunderstood about him is he tends to look at everything in terms of is it a criminal charge or is it not a criminal charge this is a congressional subpoena number one no so yes there will there will be the question of if he defies the subpoena but his lawyers are already engaged they're receiving the subpoena he has told his aides that he wants to testify if they meet his conditions you know the main one is let him do it live because there's been this issue about the the editing of videos um I you know the committee has privately said it's actually open to that I don't know what that ends up looking like I don't know that he will ever end up testifying um but I think of all of his um concerns right now legally this is like here um I don't think that's a big one would he go under oath would he be well not necessarily that's true yeah but if you're lying to Congress it's still the um I I I I think yeah I don't know I I assume that they will want him under oath but I don't know okay all right uh let's see you with no back standing up yeah hello I'm Mark wiremiller I'm not a student usually they have the students go first in question so I'm happy you're letting me ask a question if you want to defer to a studio you can now I was a student once all right I met Trump supporter maybe the only one in the room I hope there's a few others so uh you didn't mention any of his accomplishments like low gas prices low inflation the border wall growing stock market of course crime here in Chicago I hope I don't get carjacked on the way out of here but with that in mind Trump it's interesting we have so many people here that are interested in Trump who's not even doing anything now is he going to be a major force in 2024 and I feel he's going to win the presidency what are your thoughts on that just wondering when there was a question in there um the uh I I did mention an accomplishment of his the main one being the vaccine the border wall didn't finish getting built there's no question the economy was in better shape when he was president at least until 2020 when there was covid and it became much more of a problem um uh for everybody I do think he's going to run I think he has backed himself into a corner I don't think he actually loves the idea of another campaign um you know whereas I think in 2016 he hadn't thought much about the presidency he thought about winning I think now he really wants the presidency back and I think is less interested in a campaign um would he win I think he's formidable for the nomination um and in a 50 50 country he absolutely could win you know I'm not going to predict I have no idea I I gave up predicting on elections a very long time ago um but uh but I think anybody who thinks that he can't win um is making a mistake yeah I mean I would say he's likely to run he's likely to get the nomination if he runs and um you know it's it's entirely likely that the next president's going to either be a democrat or a republican right it's a it's a it's a jump ball 50 50 countries all right thanks for your question yeah um uh front room yeah yeah sure I'll focus on the students next thank you thank you very much first of all Maggie thank you I read your book it is awesome thank you you did a wonderful job I know that Trump tries to control the narrative on Twitter and social uh truth social why does he not email or do text whatsoever it's a good question um he doesn't uh it's true he does not like email he doesn't like text my sense has always been um he has a very long standing and I write about this aversion to notes and and leaving sort of record trails and he would not be the only person in business who has ever been like that a lot of them are but um uh but I think that that's where it comes from is I think it's it's mostly self-preservation he's also kind of a technophobe right I mean he doesn't really yeah I guess he does a phone he does the phone I mean look he does write tweets right I mean he looks at Twitter and he looks at he looks at the replies to his tweets um so I don't know if it's so much technophobe but certainly he is a trailer foe um young looking person in the middle uh they're sort of you stand um I think the one who just you yeah you're good oh yeah green shirt or greenish sure thank you very much um I'm curious how the White House and the presidential experience changed Trump and how it changed to you is both a reporter and a human a human I don't know how to answer that one um but the uh uh but thank you for the question um I I don't think that Trump I I'm sorry did you guys give a change to him or if if he changed the presidency so I don't think him and he said this um in an interview at one point I think it made him more suspicious I think that he was really I don't think you can underestimate the impact that the Russia investigation had on how he viewed the first two years of his presidency when he talks about how he you know he he says they owe me they owe me time basically he means that you know he feels like his time was taken from him um but I don't think that the office itself left a mark on him the way it does other has other people I think there are aspects of it that did I think that he you know I know he hated writing killed in action letters to the family members of Fallen Soldiers like that was a big thing for him um I know and and for a couple of reasons one of which is that I think he didn't want to put his name to a war he didn't believe in um uh so that's one uh you know I think that the the responsibilities and sort of the the the the nature of the presidency I don't think it changed him but it certainly surprised him and I think I think for the first year intimidated him um but he just doesn't view institutions or Norms the way previous presidents have so uh on the end second row hello thank you so much for doing this so my question is in the course of your interviews did you visit Mar-A-Lago and if so what was the experience like I did I went twice to Mar-A-Lago and went to Bedminster and um uh the first time the club was uh closed down and I didn't find out why until we were leaving and it was closed down because there had been a coveted scare um but we were still doing our interview in the middle of the dining room where uh where this was an issue um and uh uh the second time um the club wasn't closed but but he had some event going on um you know it's he he he didn't seem this way in either of those meetings but prior to the presidency when I went to Mar-A-Lago I was really struck at how much happier he seemed there than almost anywhere else and I think it's because he really likes the social greeting aspect of it um you know I think that for every former president there is this even without January 6th um there is this sort of you know downshifting the only the only person I can think of where I didn't see that was President Obama where there was that famous picture of him parasailing like right after he left the White House like a huge grin on his face um uh but I just think that leaving the presidency behind is really hard for all of them um second row right here that's you here you go get the microphone I am a second year at the public policy school this question is actually for both of you so you talked about the coverage of trump in the 70s 80s and 90s um if we could wave a wand and you could be the news director of the media at large minus conservative media how do you think that we should cover the former president um in the future for what what would you both do differently or the same uh oh I want to turn this over to Maggie but I would no I would just say um look I mean every former president is different most former presidents in fact every former president until this one um has sort of shunned the spotlight um you know usually one term defeated presidents don't immediately become the front runner to run again um and continue to have a hold over one of our two major parties so you know I think all the scrutiny that he's gotten since he left office is as important as it was you know almost as important as it was when he was in office so um you know I I think look I think the story is just unfolding but I don't think he's any less relevant than he was the day he left uh Washington on January 20th yeah no I completely agree with Mark I mean I think that when people ask that question I think it tends to be with a retrospective as if you can go back in time and it's just you know he's a former president and he's a and he's a future potential nominee um so and he has enormous hold over the party and the things that he is saying about the 2020 election and his denialism about the election has really trickled down throughout that party so I don't um I don't he can't be ignored um he can be contextualized but um but I don't think he can ignore him uh third row right there uh right yeah we're head off the record conversations as part of your interview process with Donald Trump and did you honor that and the second part the second part of the question is you've covered him for so long I imagined that you could have different personal than professional objective opinions about him does that deviate much your personal forgiveness or personal view of him then your objective I'm a reporter so I'm only going to talk from a reporter's perspective and even if I had off the record conversations with anyone I can't acknowledge them because then that's breaking the off the Record sorry uh we have four minutes left I'm going to try to get as many in as possible uh third row right right there uh uh okay there we go hi and uh Maggie you're one of my favorite people ever now Donald Trump is one thing but Donald trumpism is another thing and the way he has changed the culture of the Republican Party and Lee clearly has exposed some holes in our legal system political system notwithstanding and I know you don't have a crystal ball but that's 2024 look exponentially worse so I think um one of the I think there is a lot of in the in the political system and and to some extent in journalism you know re-fighting the last battle or you know recovering The Last Story um whatever is going to happen in 2024 isn't going to look like what happened in 2020. um it could be something different um I think there is probably not enough focus on the fact that you know a lot of the the candidates who are running in the house and in some Senate races you know still question the results of 2020 and they're going to be the ones who are certifying the next election so that I do think is an important story to focus on I think you are 100 correct that and this was actually something a democratic strategist said to me in in the transition in 2016 which was the country is about to find out how much of its systems is system is Norms not laws and you know Democrats have talked a lot about passing some kind of Ethics reform and that has not happened so uh you know I don't know what the next two years is going to look like um but uh you know I I don't think it's going to be an easy time politically in the country uh we have two minutes let's see if we can squeeze two in uh you uh about halfway back yeah are there any GOP politicians that Donald Trump truly trusts are there any what's up uh GOP politicians that he truly deep down trusts uh I don't think he trusts most anyone honestly deep down um uh but I think that Jim Jordan probably Rises High to the list um you know I think that he they're they're I think folks like some members of the House Freedom caucus um there are a couple of Senators but he tends to be much more skeptical of the GOP Senate a a second row sorry yeah second round oh that's sorry you're the third row you can we'll see if we can thank you um whether he's prosecuted or not do you based on what you know of him think that he has committed any crimes I my view of that is not relevant sir I'm sorry I understand I I'm not a prosecutor so I'm not going to accuse someone of a crime I'll call it wrongdoing I think that um there is ample reason to believe that he should not have had you know 300 plus classified documents at Mar-A-Lago um but uh but that's as far as I feel like my visibility goes uh thank you uh I'll get okay you real quick and then student the one that Jennifer's taught okay we'll have you left this is just a follow-up to that question um what do you speculate is his motivation for having those really top secret documents of Mar-A-Lago not the not the Kim Young I think there's a couple of possible reasons and I'll just do them quickly I think that one is that he is somebody who really likes trophies and you know if you go to tour his corner office at Trump Tower he has this this little area of tchotchkes like Shaquille O'Neal's shoe and things that he points to to bragged at so I think that's one answer I think another answer is that he thought they were leveraged of some kind or another the one that I have a tough time seeing is I know there's a speculation that he was going to sell them um that that's harder for me to see um but those are I think the main modes and also you know Chris Christie posed a positive this on ABC last weekend that he thinks some of this is about Trump kind of wanting to pretend to himself that he's still president and I think that's a possibility uh Jennifer the one last one um there's more of a question about your philosophy of reporting um Joan Didion once said that a writer is always selling someone out um confidence man and I wondered I guess I wonder generally about your thoughts on that and then how that applies to reporting about politicians and figures like that is any coverage good coverage for them especially someone in the Trump era I mean I tend not to think of the I don't tend to think in terms of what's good or bad for the person I'm writing about that's their problem not my problem and one of the things that uh one of my favorite editors ever said to me in 2009 when we were having some issue related to someone pitching us a story and there was a and he said their problems are not our problems and I I think that's that's my basic philosophy you know something is either accurate and fair or it's not um but that's how I go about it uh hello sometimes their problems they run for president they become our problem well that's a different issue uh thank you all so so much

Channel: UChicago Institute of Politics

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Id: KBCP7gNMZlw

Length: 58min 45sec (3525 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 21 2022