Living Intentionally, with Scott Hanselman - Things Worth Learning Podcast

[Music] hey and welcome to things worth learning i'm your host matt stauffer this is a show where a curious computer programmer which is me uh interviews fascinating people about their passions so my desk my guest today is scott hanselman who works with opensource and dot net and c sharp at microsoft and he's also a long time beloved denizen of the internet or a netizen as you will he talked to we talked about that a little bit earlier so scott can you tell me a little bit about and the audience a little bit about yourself and it's your personal life your professional life but just what should we know about you i work out of portland oregon i've been remote for microsoft now for 14 years wow been a programmer for 30. so i've been a remote worker since before the panini and i have um so everyone came looking for me for class like oh you've been working remotely it's like well it's working in a quarantine is not the same remotely so have a good camera and a ring light was about all i had for them you're already several steps above everybody else though yeah i've since written a bunch of articles about it and stuff like that yeah but um um yeah so remote work is the thing i've been doing for a very very very long time started out in open source and went to microsoft to basically open source everything so like i just keep open sourcing stuff until they fire me and go somewhere else and do it all over again that's cool but yeah i was doing open source uh at a bank uh 15 plus years ago and um before it was uh fun and doing doing uh extreme programming with which was what they call it agile and extreme programming and then before that it was um uh there was pair programming and then there was uh what they call it devops now but we called it ci cd and build servers that was almost 20 years ago yeah so i try to stay on the like the rolling edge of stuff what's cool now you were doing 10 years ago basically you're like i didn't mean it i know but i'm saying i'm just saying you're the hipster of the internet like it's official now so uh well yeah i can try to explain to my kids my kids always come to me with some meme or some phrase and it's like you know we invented that computer yeah and they're like okay old man yeah right i love it i love it and so you have been you have been blogging you have been teaching you have been sharing online for ages and i think you're one of the people who kind of was the beginning of deciding that a lot of what we do as programmers should happen in public like you mentioned having done open source for ages but you've also been blogging and podcasting for ages you've been speaking for ages and you also um i didn't know this until i read your about page prepping for this i didn't even know you had been an associate professor professor for a while so you're you're a sharer you're a teacher is that something you kind of always know about yourself you know do you know those those those little fellas that wander around the neighborhood and they knock on your door and they want to tell you about whatever their their religion or whatever they're excited about you know they're kind of like have you heard the news i really respect the hustle yeah like you know good on you for you're so excited about your thing that you're wandering around the streets talking about it so like i really like that philosophy okay so i have been doing that like ah have you heard about this right yeah like forever yeah it's like whatever the thing is yes you're an advantage very much whatever i'm an over-sharing yeah god i'm an overshare too this this is why we get along i love that so so like like right right now my love language is sending tick tocks to my family and like i love about emailing them texting them whatsapp groups dedicated to me sending you so like that's my whole thing right or how to's or links to ifixit.com whatever like all of those kind of things love that i love tips and tricks and i've been doing that for my entire life you know my dad is a uh was a woodworker type person and he has like you know he's always like we can fix that you know we get a hammer that could be we can hammer that i love that uh so why not do that in public and then i very very early on um registered my own domain so i've been you know have domains since the 90s yeah back when they were like so i've got 120 internet that goes back 120 bucks a year and all run through network solutions right right exactly so you've been doing this yeah um so yeah yeah i've been why not share yeah i love that why not share but also share with a url that you own right which is a thing we could have a whole podcast about if we were going to um one other quick question about that you also mentioned you had been a stand-up comedian and i've i've found that of my friends who are stand-up comedians one of the things that's very common is that they have this very big presence on stage and in person they're often these extraordinarily humble caring and often kind of very quiet people have you always been and i'm i'm saying this to you you didn't say it's about the shelf but you always kind of have this like helping people mr rogers vibe or is that something that you've kind of more intentionally come into and you previously had been a different way i would say i was in the uh in the early my early 20s i think people would probably describe me as being intense and somewhat unfocused i would say this is probably scott 3.0 or 4.0 at this point got it i don't know why but there's a calmness that comes hopefully with with with age um i think that i had you know pretty bad like imposter syndrome and i didn't fit and before the word fomo fear of missing out was a thing i had a lot of fomo and spent a lot of time in high school afraid to like leave the party because something cool would always happen at 2 a.m and then once i figured out that nothing good happens after 2 a.m like as a rule nothing life-changing happens after 2 a.m you should leave the you know the hilton hotel lobby nothing good is going to come up yet at least nothing positively life-changing nothing nothing positive absolutely prince is not going to come spontaneously like dude after you left prince the king is amazing doesn't happen never um you should be studying you should go back and do that you hear that kids right yeah um so it has i i i would say i have evolved in the vault my volume has turned down from an an overly intense 11 to a uh a pretty chill nine okay i like it um yeah transitionally my first question that i'm trying to ask everybody is do you have any sort of like a life mantra or a phrase or idea you'd like to live your life by and it could be related to what we just said or not but is there any kind of like if like you know like uh i don't know if you've seen um oh goodness ted lasso but you know he's got his like belief like like do you have a stick like a phrase or a way or a way you try to kind of like gauge new opportunities against or anything like that yeah i i i we recently lost a friend um named abel wang and i had you could come and check out yeah i'll link it i'll show you the podcast i did with him just a couple weeks before he passed and he said don't accept the defaults and he and i actually had been using that phrase simultaneously and didn't even know that we'd like both been like that's our thing right and i used to give talks about intentionality be intentional is my thing so you know when you get that that installer on window on macs you just drag installer into the applications folder but on on a windows machine you see next next next finish and somewhere in the middle there as you're skipping past euler's and not reading anything there's a button that says custom okay uh-huh and you get to change versus accepting and you get to change stuff so windows people are used to going enter enter enter enter and that just means next next next finish just install the things yeah able says don't accept the defaults always click custom because you never know what's underneath that button that says custom could be could have installed the weird toolbar you don't want a weird toolbar in your life and that that is like a philosophy so so intentionality is super important yeah um don't accept the defaults was abel's was able's thing and i really appreciate that so yeah honor him with that as well deliberate practice i love that i mean you it's not as easy as ted lasso's belief yeah but i mean it's pretty simple like the fact that you actually had a phrase and also just just for a note because i didn't mention this not only has scott been blogging for ages he has i think there's a three or four podcast and a youtube and and you're you're showing this by how easy it is you're making me to interview you because each point you make perfectly transitions to the next question i'm about to ask you so speaking of that that mantra you just gave me you know this podcast is about uh one topic you're particularly passionate about right now so can you tell me kind of what's what's on the docket for us today what are we talking about well so in this not accepting the defaults it got me thinking about the social feed we always talk about the algorithm which is like the black box algorithm that we don't see and that we can't control um you can control it if you're gonna give the big giant nameless faceless company that's destroying democracy your uh your data you know you might as well enjoy it enjoy the right way so whether it be tik tok or instagram or facebook yeah if you feed the algorithm the kind of positivity that you want by liking and sharing the things that you want to see more of you will end up with what's called an fyp a for you page that's the feed in in tik tok and the things that come onto your fyp your for you page will delight you but if you put asshole-ish forgive me for scrolling podcast if you complete that stuff out into the world then you're like that karma's going to come back like the algorithm is truly karma like rolling back on top of you so if you're liking a bunch of mean videos of people hurting each other or doing the milk crate challenge you're going to end up with a lot of really a lot of negativity in your life i'm really really enjoying tick tock right now yeah the problem is the first three days of anyone on tick tock are arguably offensive yeah that was my experience and i i told you before we were on the call i tried to join it and i couldn't get it so tell me a little bit about that so what will happen is you'll go on to tick-tock and then you're going to find the fat part of the bell curve right that middle part of the bell curve which is just people doing dumb stuff and like hurting themselves on skateboarding and then text going fail and it's like oh we're all going to laugh at people hurting themselves right but if you if you push through that and just say you're long press and you say not interested in the negativity and then you like only the positive things and then go and search for stuff okay i have found on my tick tock after having tuned the algorithm over about three days i'm just looking at mine right now i've got musicians i've got here's someone talking about the linguistics around simlish the sims there's excited people talking about their phds here's somebody talking about uh they're doing a phd about a snake i've got indigenous creators talking about bringing back their languages and their dances um here's some buskers there's a lot of really great musicians all all popular musicians from the next from now on are going to come off of tick tock the way that bieber came from youtube tick tock is where these things happen it's it's turning into just a wonderful joyous feed of cool stuff my wife is a nurse so i've got nurse tick tock okay which is like a sub tip of these things where they talk about you know when you're on the night shift and it's like jokes comedians um uh impressions here's one on um what's this word here uh uh clay uh molding things with clay cosplayers 3d printing uh iron man i love the costumes and stuff like that and just and on like i'm looking at mine i'm just scrolling scrolling scrolling it's just nothing but cool positive stuff yeah that's no goofy dancing videos except for the awesome dancers right they're also amazing on tick tock that's and that's so different from so you said the fat part of the bell curve meaning kind of like the most generic applicable to everybody they're like well if you're a person you'll probably most likely like this kind of dumb stuff yeah okay there you go if you're a person yeah right because they have to choose that right oh we know about you as your person right now yeah right exactly all we know is that you're a person um there's this thing that they do on tick tock called stitches where someone does a video and then you stitch to it which is you take the video that the person just did you put it over to the right and then you talk okay and then another person can stitch yours so then maybe your two videos will go here and then there'll be a third video and then so people are doing barbershop quartet i saw the the ones with sin and i didn't understand that was tick tock what was i don't remember that was called but it was a guy doing a uh chanting shanty that's the word the sea shanties so that was seashell that was all the tick tock yeah thank you i was like the rise of sea shanties sca shanti um there's also been some uh i think it's called carnatic uh indian traditional um music uh doing covers of modern pop songs i'm looking at one right now which is now seven deep where uh a guy named uh named abdullah alameen is doing uh old-school acapella with six other guys gosh that's incredible you know like it's it's hugely and if oh and then the ratatouille musical did you know about this no i love the movie i don't know there's a musical some there isn't until there was so on tick tock um this this lady did she's like granted tui should have been a musical and she did a song okay and then a bunch of musical theater nerds i used to be a musical theater saw it on tick tock and they're like oh yeah that would be the theme for ratatouille i'll do costumes i'll do the set and then titus burgess from kimmy schmidt uh who is a huge favorite person decided to get together with a bunch of folks and they organized a tick-tock-produced ratatouille musical where all of the um uh the uh the the casting calls were done on tick tock and they called different people in got some famous people some not famous people and they sold tickets and and put on a musical and you can go and find ratatouille the musical and it was done all remotely over tick tock so do you actually watch the final thing over tick tock is the final thing i watched the final thing wow it was like they charged like five bucks and you log into like the actors guild or whatever and and watch like a 45 minute ratatouille musical no it was goofy janky but the music was as good as yeah anything else that you incredible and one of my friends was just telling me about um aaron sorkin and he's like you should have seen all the stuff from aaron zorkin there's this one thing he did during the writer's strike and it was kind of you know like things were during the writers strike and i had not known this whole concept that during the writers strike a lot of writers went and did these kind of smaller things because they didn't have the the full studio available to them so that's really interesting to see the parallel with this where it's not that they didn't have the full studio but the world is very different both in terms of the limitations of the pandemic but also the opportunities of collaboration that don't have to go through the traditional forms anymore like titus is on tv shows but this was not through that traditional series and that's really interesting to see what that opens up for like production and collaboration and sharing and even making money in the end well if you look at um uh jason bateman and uh the folks that put on the smartless podcast they just sold it for 80 million dollars to amazon what you know i've never even heard of sean hayes jason bateman uh and um i'm blanking on the gentleman's name who was the voice of um uh will arnett voice wow batman and one of the famous voices from um uh they smartlist.com they are three actors that call each other and do zoom calls and like we should just record these and now it's like the number one podcast right that's cool a good friend of mine is an actor who has a very very popular show on on netflix but netflix doesn't pay residuals oh they just buy your stuff so you don't get that like that seinfeld check every year so he's doing a podcast from his apartment that's really cool um yeah so you you know i'm getting all excited about tick tock here with you and i really appreciate that but i kind of kind of your foundation yeah sorry let's get back to the foundation for the foundation yeah it's about the feed yeah what are you choosing to let into your brain so some of this is technical right some of the technical aspects are you can choose to shoot um you basically you feed certain input into the algorithm that defines the type of output you get from the algorithm so you can intentionally shape the the experience you have in this particular space but some of it i feel like is a little bit more ideological um that may go beyond just the feed right like and it's this idea of intentionality which i don't think that you probably only apply to feeds so i feel like there's a level of like agency and control over life when you're looking at massive multinational corporations that are ruining the world you know that when you're looking at the state of the u.s government and you know a lot of overseas places as well where you just kind of feel hopeless i feel like intentionality and shaping your own kind of space year around has an element of hope to it and i wondered if that just me having said that does that kind of lead you in any directions if not that's totally fine but well some of it is comes from uh sometimes to be hopeful is to have a sense to have privilege right there's a lot of messed up stuff right now in the world um so being economically stable you know i've got a job and i i don't have to worry about food this week i didn't i didn't always have food security but i have had food security for the last 20 years um there's there's privilege inherent in that so it is pro i'm privileged to be hopeful but also there's a certain amount of uh with helplessness there's only hope left right it's a very difficult world right now and if you start spiraling down the drain of negativity then you're gonna feel pretty lousy so i am choosing to be hopeful and kind and inclusive and positive because what else do we have but i just got this t-shirt recently uh not the one i'm wearing now this one says include everyone love that c plus plus but i've got another one that says work hard and be nice um and i'm getting compliments like all over town because you just don't see shirts like that yeah you know what i mean yeah it says work hard be nice because this life is too short to be so mean and the amount of energy required to be upset right now and not not valid not valid outrage there's perfectly good reasons to be outraged but um to be so upset about something means that it's probably not about the thing at all it's in fact probably um that someone's in pain you know what i mean like when i see someone flipping out in the parking lot and someone filmed it and put it on tick tock or whatever and it's like oh look at this person being an ass in public it's probably something else going on right like what is put in that position there's pain underneath yeah so empathy is my my vibe so when you pop off the stack at the beginning of the question about like intentionality as well as me changing over the over the years it's um extra practiced extreme empathy extreme empathy so over over time like like no matter how bad it is it probably wasn't about you it's probably about something that they're going through how did they get there what was their story like let me ask you this matt do you ever before the pandemic you're in a crowd and you just have a moment where you're just utterly overwhelmed by the number of people that are walking by because you realize that every single one of them has a story yes i didn't know it's just like i just want to pause yes and have like little pop-ups over their heads with like a bio a dossier of like this person just passed me i'm never going to see them again they're npc's right they're non-player characters from my perspective but they have parents or do they yeah they have they have christmas or maybe another holiday like they get together with their families they have hopes and dreams and they pass you at universal studios yeah right so when somebody flips out in the parking lot of a whole foods because they didn't get what they wanted or whatever there's probably an underlying pain there yeah and what we're missing right now is is any kind of empathy right now everything's been split into them and us tribal negativity so i am trying to do the exact opposite of that wow i'm feeling some feelings right now yeah i love i love that um i wish we had another hour um but um i'm gonna have to have you back on again for sure but i i think i especially feel comfortable having this conversation with you because i know that you care about um inclusivity and equity and making our industry and the world a better place especially for people who've traditionally had a difficult time because i think sometimes when we do talk about empathy and being considerate of the other person and stuff like that sometimes it can devolve into a um how dare you say that what some someone did was wrong like they you know whatever and so i think it's really helpful to be able to hold the two things in balance like there are things that are unacceptable you said there are things that are worth being outraged about and then at the same time people no matter what the things they're doing also are still unique individual people who may have different pains behind them and to be for both of those things to be true is a really difficult tension i think to walk um and because i know we're about to close out i just wanted to see is there anything you could talk about when it comes to having to know both of those things at the same time you can't just be nice to everybody and assume everything they've done is good you can't just where if you're holding their attention you also can't just uh look at what someone's done done wrong and just write them off as horrible people and be and you know there's there's some balance of having both can you talk a little bit about what that balance feels like or how to do it well one one can get i don't want to say be nice and ignore things that are inappropriate and outrageous i'm not saying don't march for the thing right matter to you i'm not saying don't have a you know hold a vigil or call your congress person or whatever i'm talking about the more kind of like day-to-day background outrage is um is the opposite of self-care um yeah yeah like like my dad once when i was younger and stressed out said you need to chill out because you're no good to us dead and that that that that's a very coarse yeah you know way of saying it but you're no good to us is it was his way of saying hey man like if you chill you could stick around longer and do all the good works that we need you to do so when i meet people that are so outraged i'm worried they're going to burn out in in their you know early 30s i'm thinking i really want you to be here for another 70 years so that you can help yeah so that you can be successful so that you can fight those conversations are actually what my my tick tock my own personal tick tock because i'm an old man on tick tock is all about of telling people to focus to breathe to take a nap take a walk when you need to so that you might fight yeah another day because you're no good to us dead that's wonderful god i want i want to end it there but i won't because i want to recap for my brain to make sure that i'm hearing you right um otherwise i would have ended up on that because that was so good um i don't know maybe it's a little downer no it's because your dad didn't say that out of uh being a jerk to you he said that out of love for you right like he is legitimately concerned for your health so my my kind of recap you a little bit of that one i want to hear if you if i got this right is um you can care for yourself by choosing to um maybe kind of have a more hopeful positive empathetic perspective on the day-to-day things that will not have to make you therefore be someone who doesn't have the permission because now someone has told you to chill out to care deeply about big important issues but rather shifting your day-to-day experience of life even through changing the algorithm a little bit of what you're consuming or um having a different perspective on you know someone maybe you're at universal studios and that person walking by you slams into your shoulder a little bit past them how are you going to respond that little bit some of those shifts in your day-to-day can make a positive benefit in your ability to engage in those big life-changing things that are perfectly valued for you to be involved in so it's not kind of like hey chill out about everything stop caring which i think is a lot easier for us to do as white guys be like why are you all so angry at the time and that's not the message here right like the message is like care about the big things this is not but our day-to-day perspective it's not tone this is not tone police and that's what i think that's what i think anybody who knows you already knows that that's not what you're doing but just in case somebody's hearing this podcast doesn't know you online i want to make sure that that part is clear right right like we're not talking about don't go care about the things that matter um so if someone were to take like like the first thing they would do coming out of this podcast is go shift their social feeds towards positivity right liking and seeking out things that will kind of surround them with and whatever positivity means for them right it doesn't have to mean you know toxic positive go ahead go ahead i also want to add one other thing the feed is also humans okay tell me more about that humans that text you humans that call you humans that are negative if you have a toxic friend or or god help your parent or relative you need to like or long press and press not interested yeah like the feed is also the people who bring negativity into your life that's good so when you're thinking about the your inbox and managing your inbox that's text and snaps and all that kind of stuff as well but it's also the people that you allow to uh to affect you right as a content creator you mentioned at the beginning of the of the conversation i put a lot out there and i get a lot of like negativity and i'm not going to let a stranger who doesn't love me ruin my come on i love that right why would i let an internet stranger with a with a frog for a uh an icon reach out and to reach out over the internet and slap me and pick up my dad sorry man block and move on water off a duck's back so that resilience i have based on privilege and age how can we make the young people my kids your kids the folks that are listening as kids and the kids in their lives have that sense where the likes do not represent your value and your work come on right so cut out the negative people focus on the thing that you're going to do and be intentional if you're outraged about 19 things what are the you know sort them by impact what are the things you can be outraged about today and give yourself permission to turn off your phone for a minute because airplane mode works on the ground there's a lot of quotables from this one i like that um i don't know if you're familiar with it but there's a instagram account called the nap ministry and it's a woman who's basically just primarily targeting women of color but just saying like hey we all need to rest more in order in order to do the work we're going to do and it has really changed my perspective because it's the first time i heard somebody saying rest in self-care is foundational to um activism and so it's really cool for me because that was my first time really hearing somebody try to have the tension held there like that we're talking about here and some of the things that you're saying really remind me of that um so i'll link that in the show notes everybody um but yeah so that i appreciate what you said what i was gonna say so if somebody were to walk away first of all curate their feeds and you mentioned the feeds aren't just your social feeds they're also the people who are around you um but is there is our second kind of takeaway like is there one other thing you would say if you do this one change today you know a curate your feeds b is there any other and if not that's fine right we just talked about a lot of stuff but is there any other kind of like here's your next step in this journey if you would you were to get one i would say try to google for mindfulness and deliberate practice amen coming on like can you get your mind quiet if you can't what can you do to to do that can you get therapy talk to a friend reach out you know kind of build that um i have this thing called life's board of directors oh cool on my blog okay you know like people make companies intentionally people get married and they write their their opening speech that they have to give but no one ever writes and people write 12-page business plans but no one ever writes a 12-page business plan for their marriage for their relationships we have we have like ceos and all these kind of different people who run our companies but the real people who run the company is the board of directors and the board of directors they don't really work for the company so they're interested but they don't really care that much so i think you should have life's board of directors these are friends but not so friendly that they're gonna like mess up your life like friendly colleagues that's cool so i have this board of directors that i go to on whatsapp and it's like i'm going to make this life decision yeah what do you think and they're the ones that are like no girl yeah do not do that that is stupid right so put who is your board of directors of two or three people who are interested but they're not your brother-in-law oh my goodness i love that i mean yeah because that the brother-in-law's gonna be too invested and invest in a lot of they're too invested they've got to be invested but far enough away where you can drop in ask questions and then drop out so those are people who can help you quiet your mind you go and say something out loud we have this thing in programming called rubber duck debugging have you familiar with that i have a rubber duck somewhere here we send one to everybody at the company when they first join so yeah so rubber duck debugging is you put the rubber duck on your monitor and then when you get stuck you talk to it we rubber duck debug programming programs but very rarely do we rub or debug our lives you actually do when you call your friend they just listen they don't really say anything and then at the end they say i think you know what you need to do and you're like you're right thanks for being here for this put it out there in the world right and you said it and it came back so that level of intentionality and deliberate practice i try to apply like when we didn't write big long vows for our wedding we wrote a plan not a business plan but like a this we believe yes that's amazing married 21 years yeah like this is the marriage plan what do you what do you think what's your name what's our mission statement yeah what are we about here right or what's our board of directors i love that that level of of intentionality you can apply to all aspects of your life get a coach mm-hmm oh yeah multiple coaches yeah when you said that about the board of directors the first one i thought a third person i thought about was my executive coach and i'm so i've never had one before i'm like man like fancy silicon valley ceos have executive coaches but he's the guy i go to with a lot of these things where i'm just like i just need an outside perspective you know and so a lot of people don't think that they deserve yeah so you do all of these things we've talked about you deserve that again to you know i'm not going to say your middle age but two middle aged white guys on a podcast here with privilege talking about the things that you deserve if you can make those things happen you shouldn't need a lot of money to go and curate your feed think about your defaults have a person that you can talk to and and and get the negativity out of your life it will it will lift a weight off of you that's amazing um i almost feel like i'm cheating the end of that but i do have this last question and maybe you'll tie this in again as an excellent podcaster but my last question i always ask everybody before how can we follow you is what insert insight or support did you receive or need when you were younger that you hope that others you know who are listening right now will give to others the support that i had was i continually bumped into people who appeared i think to want me to win so don't take advice from anyone who doesn't want you to win goodness yeah right absolutely so if you find someone like that they're like you know this is a person who's unselfishly giving me advice and they want me to win as opposed to they want to put me down or they want to say so they want something from me right oh yeah only listen to people that you know genuinely want you to win and don't be a transactional network okay right where like where they're giving you something but they want something in return yep i love that um all right as always i could talk for like three hours but i'm gonna cut it so if somebody has never heard of you before how do we follow you how do we support you and give you money or support the things you care about like what does it look like to to be more involved in scott hanson's life post this podcast nothing i do costs money uh everything i do is absolutely free if you go to hanselman.com uh in the upper corner i've got my podcast i've done over 800 episodes um so i would encourage you to go to the archives and just scroll back i've got transcripts for all 800 episodes you can go to my youtube i've got a series called computer stuff they didn't teach you in school that is i'm very proud of uh i've got a tick tock so all the socials i'm s hanselman everywhere and all these will be linked in the show notes um i would mention every once in a while we do get the chance to pay some money but it never goes to you you have some t-shirts at times where you can pay and you're always kind of shifting that money elsewhere do you have any of those that are actually open right now yeah so i have hey friends dot io uh it which goes to black girls code and we've given over seven thousand dollars today love it awesome so if you do want to throw some money it's kind of close to me throw it there and it goes through black girls code scott i really really appreciate your time everything you've shared here i hope to have you on again soon but until then thank you man until next time y'all be good to each other [Music]

Channel: Matt Stauffer

Views: 538

Keywords: intentionality, empathy, Scott Hanselman, Things Worth Learning, community, connectedness

Id: 7k1q4wBwZqQ

Length: 35min 25sec (2125 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 10 2021