Life Without Children

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>> Steve: IN THE YEAR 2006, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, THERE WERE MORE COUPLES WITHOUT CHILDREN IN CANADA THAN WITH. THIS IS A GAP THAT FURTHER WIDENED IN THE NEXT CENSUS IN 2011. WITH A GROWING NUMBER OF CANADIANS CREATING A LIFE WITHOUT CHILDREN, WE'VE INVITED A GROUP TO TELL US WHAT THAT LIFE LOOKS LIKE. JOINING US NOW: MOLLY PEACOCK, AUTHOR OF "PARADISE PIECE BY PIECE," ONE OF THE FIRST MEMOIRS TO ADDRESS THIS SHIFT; BRUCE GILLESPIE, PROFESSOR AT WILFRID LAURIER UNIVERSITY AND EDITOR OF "NOBODY'S FATHER: LIFE WITHOUT KIDS," AN ANTHOLOGY OF ESSAYS WRITTEN BY MEN WHO HAVE FOREGONE FATHERHOOD; AND LIANE KOTLER, JOURNALIST HERE AT TVO, WITH FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE OF INFERTILITY AND ITS EFFECTS. ON LIFE. AND WE WELCOME EVERYBODY, NOT JUST AROUND OUR TABLE, BUT I REALLY WANT TO -- I ALWAYS START BY THANKING EVERYBODY. YOU GUYS ARE VERY BRAVE TO COME ON AND SHARE SOME VERY HEARTFELT STORIES ABOUT REAL LIFE WITHOUT KIDS. SO KUDOS TO YOU FOR DOING SO. LET'S GET INTO THIS. MOLLY, WE WANT TO GO AROUND THE TABLE HERE AND FIND OUT HOW YOUR LIFE CAME TO NOT INCLUDE CHILDREN. >> Molly Peacock: WELL, I MADE THE CHOICE NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN AT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT TIMES IN MY LIFE. I DON'T THINK IT'S A CHOICE PEOPLE MAKE ONCE. AND I REVISITED IT TIME AFTER TIME. SO I'LL TELL YOU ABOUT A VERY YOUNG CHOICE AND THEN HOW I RESPOND NOW THAT I'M 68. >> Steve: SURE. HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU MADE THE YOUNG CHOICE? >> Molly Peacock: THREE. >> Steve: YOU KNEW AT THREE? >> Molly Peacock: I DID. I'LL TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED. WE'RE IN THE KITCHEN. MY MOTHER'S HARRIED. MY GRANDMOTHER IS THERE, MY SISTER AND MY FATHER, AND MY GRANDMOTHER SAYS TO ME, "DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN." AND MY FATHER CASE, "DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN." AND I REMEMBER THIS BECAUSE IT GAVE ME THE IDEA THAT I HAD A CHOICE. >> Steve: HMM. BUT YOU KNOW THEY ALWAYS SAY THAT. PARENTS ALWAYS SAY THAT WHEN THEY'RE FURIOUS WITH YOU. >> Molly Peacock: WATCH OUT! YOUR KID COULD TAKE YOU LITERALLY. SO THERE'S A LITTLE SEED, BECAUSE CHILDREN THINK ABOUT WHAT THEIR LIVES ARE GOING TO BE AND HOW THEY'RE GOING TO GROW UP. I FORTUNATELY HAVE A VERY HAPPY LIFE NOW, BUT THE BAD PART OF MY LIFE CAME FIRST. MY DAD WAS A SEVERE ALCOHOLIC AND A VIOLENT MAN AND I HAD A LOT OF FAMILY RESPONSIBILITY. SO I DID A LOT OF THE MOTHER-TYPE TASKS. AND I'M SURE THAT THAT -- PSYCHOLOGISTS CALL IT BEING OVERPARENTALLIZED. I'M SURE THAT THAT -- THOSE EARLY PARENTING TASKS AFFECTED ME. >> Steve: PRESUMABLY, IN YOUR 20s AND 30s, A TIME WHEN MOST PEOPLE HAVE KIDS, YOU HAD TO REVISIT THIS DECISION. >> Molly Peacock: YES. AT THAT POINT, THAT'S THE POINT THAT I WAS KIND OF GROWING AN IDENTITY BECAUSE MOSTLY MY CHILDHOOD WAS TASKS AND THEN FINALLY I BEGAN TO DISCOVER WHO I WAS AND FIND MYSELF AS AN ARTIST. SO ALL OF THOSE -- THOSE DECISIONS ABOUT BECOMING AN ARTIST AND CLAIMING YOURSELF AS AN ARTIST AND ALSO THAT CHOICE COMES IN BECAUSE AT THAT POINT I'M PROBABLY IN THE FIRST GENERATION OF WOMEN WHO HAD THE BIRTH CONTROL CHOICE. SO ALL OF THAT WAS FACTORING IN WITH A FEELING THAT I HAD A CALLING TO BE A POET, A WRITER AND THEN LATER ON IN LIFE A BIOGRAPHER. >> Steve: BUT NEVER A MOTHER. >> Molly Peacock: I DIDN'T FEEL I HAD THE CALLING TO BE A MOTHER. >> Steve: INTERESTING. BRUCE, LET US ASK WHY THERE ARE NO KIDS IN YOUR LIFE. >> Bruce Gillespie: IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESEARCH OF PEOPLE WITH LIFE WITHOUT KIDS, THEY CATEGORIZE THEM IN TWO DIFFERENT WAYS. I'M AN EARLY ARTICULATOR. AS I GREW OLDER AND REALIZED I WAS GAY, THAT MADE SENSE, THAT MOST GAY MEN DIDN'T HAVE CHILDREN SO I THOUGHT IT ALL FIT TOGETHER. CLEARLY LOTS OF CHANGE IN THE WORLD SINCE THEN. THERE ARE LOTS OF GAY AND LESBIAN PARENTS OUT THERE RIGHT NOW. THE DECISION FOR ME HASN'T CHANGED. IT'S NOT ANYTHING I EVER FELT I WANTED TO DO. WHEN I THINK THERE'S NO REASON TO BECOME AN AMBIVALENT PARENT. SO IT'S NEVER APPEALED TO ME. I REMEMBER GROWING UP THINKING ABOUT THE DADS AND FATHERS THAT I KNEW IN MY OWN FAMILY AND WITH MY FRIENDS' FAMILIES, AND THEY ALL SEEMED LIKE BIT PLAYERS IN THEIR CHILDREN'S LIVES. THEY SAT IN THE BASEMENT AND NO ONE TALKED TO THEM AND THERE WAS NO APPEAL TO FATHERHOOD TO ME AS WELL. >> Steve: LET ME FOLLOW UP YOUR DAD WASN'T AROUND IT PROBABLY PLAYED SOME ROLE. THERE WASN'T A FATHER THERE EVERY DAY. STILL I HAD LOTS OF FRIENDS WHO HAD FATHERS AND I SAW THEM IN THEIR LIVES AND REALIZED THEY WERE THERE. I HAD A STEPFATHER AND I STILL DO. IT WASN'T A ROLE I EVER ASPIRED TO OR HAD ANY -- AS MOLLY WAS SAYING, HAD ANY CALLING FOR. >> Steve: GOTCHA. LIANE, NO KIDS IN YOUR LIFE. HOW COME? >> Liane Kotler: I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD NOT HAVE CHILDREN. I GREW UP THINKING IT'S A GIVEN: I'M GOING TO HAVE KIDS. IN FACT, I REMEMBER AS A CHILD MEETING A MARRIED COUPLE THAT DIDN'T HAVE CHILDREN AND I THOUGHT THEY WERE FREAKS. I THOUGHT THAT IS SO WEIRD, THAT ADULTS CAN ACTUALLY NOT HAVE CHILDREN? IT WAS BIZARRE. AND I CALL MYSELF AND MY HUSBAND AS WELL, WE CALL OURSELVES EMPTY NESTERS AND WE'RE CHILD-FREE. FOR A LONG TIME WE WERE CHILDLESS. WE WENT THROUGH ALMOST A DECADE OF TRYING TO HAVE A CHILD. DIDN'T HAPPEN. THAT SAID, YOU CAN GET TO THE OTHER SIDE OF WANTING TO HAVE CHILDREN. YOU DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. AND BE PERFECTLY HAPPY. >> Steve: HOW ABOUT THE REST OF YOUR FAMILY? ARE THEY -- HOW DO THEY DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT YOU AT THIS STAGE OF YOUR LIVES ARE NOW OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO HAVE KIDS? >> Liane Kotler: I THINK THEY'RE GREAT. I COME FROM A JEWISH FAMILY AND I THINK THERE'S A CULTURAL NOTION THAT -- I GREW UP WITH THIS CONCEPT, CHILDREN ARE THE BE ALL AND END ALL. YOU CANNOT HAVE A COMPLETE LIFE WITHOUT CHILDREN. THAT'S NOT REALLY TRUE NOW THAT I'M ON THE OTHER SIDE. BUT MY FAMILY IS GREAT. I HAVE TWO OLDER BROTHERS. THEY HAVE CHILDREN. I HAVE FIVE NIECES AND NEPHEWS. AND THEY'RE VERY INCLUSIVE. VERY INCLUSIVE. AND AS A CONSEQUENCE, I TRY TO BE AS INVOLVED IN MY NIECES AND NEPHEWS' LIVES AS THEY WANT. >> Steve: I'M GOING TO PUSH YOU A LITTLE FURTHER ON THIS, MOSTLY BECAUSE YOU AND I HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER FOR A LONG TIME AND I KNOW YOUR MOTHER. I ADORE YOUR MOTHER. >> Liane Kotler: SHE IS A MOTHER. SHE IS AN UBER MOTHER. >> Steve: THIS IS WHAT I WANTED TO GET -- I PRESUME IT TOOK A LONG TIME BEFORE YOUR MOM GOT AS COMFORTABLE WITH THE NOTION THAT YOU WEREN'T GOING TO GIVE HER GRANDCHILDREN AS YOU ARE? >> Liane Kotler: I THINK BECAUSE, THANKFULLY, MY BROTHERS GAVE HER FIVE GRANDCHILDREN, THAT THE PRESSURE WAS OFF. THAT SAID, I AM THE ONLY DAUGHTER, AND THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A BIT OF A DISCONNECT. WE DO CONNECT ON MANY LEVELS. I'M VERY CLOSE WITH MY MOM. BUT SHE IS THE TYPE OF WOMAN WHO MOTHERHOOD IS EVERYTHING FOR HER. >> Steve: AND SHE WOULD NO DOUBT WANT YOU TO HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT. >> Liane Kotler: YES, BUT I NEVER FELT ANY PRESSURE FROM HER. IN FACT, THE REVERSE. BECAUSE I THINK GROWING UP MY MOTHER WAS VERY LOVING, KIND. SHE STILL IS. >> Steve: SHE TOTALLY IS. >> Liane Kotler: I THINK SHE WITHHELD A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF INFORMATION ON HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO BE A MOM. >> Steve: LET'S PUT SOME STATS OUT THERE AND THEN WE'LL CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION: CANADA'S CURRENT FERTILITY RATE IS -- BOY, IS IT LOW, 1.61 CHILDREN PER WOMAN. CONTINUING A DECLINE. AND IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO, IT'S EVEN LOWER. CANADA NEEDS 2.1 CHILDREN PER WOMAN FOR POPULATION REPLACEMENT. THAT'S THE STATISTIC. THAT OF COURSE DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT IMMIGRATION. AS WELL THE GAP SIGNIFICANTLY WIDENS BETWEEN HOUSEHOLD COUPLES WITH OR WITHOUT CHILDREN, 29.5% VERSUS 26.5% RESPECTIVELY. SO AS THE POPULATION AGES, THERE ARE FEWER REPLACEMENTS, AGAIN, IF YOU DON'T TAKE IMMIGRATION INTO ACCOUNT. >> Molly Peacock: IT'S ALL OUR FAULT. [Laughter] >> Steve: WELL, YOU SAY THAT FACETIOUSLY. I WONDER IF THERE IS A PART OF YOU THAT EVER HAD TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUE OF, WE'RE KIND OF NOT HOLDING UP OUR END OF THE BARGAIN HERE. DO YOU EVER DEAL WITH THAT, MOLLY? >> Molly Peacock: I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY -- WHY IS THAT MY END OF THE BARGAIN? THERE'S A HUGE WHOLE SOCIETY AND LOTS OF CHOICES. WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A 21ST CENTURY SOCIETY IS TO HAVE THESE CHOICES. THAT 20% OF THE POPULATION IS CHOOSING NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN, AND HOW THEN DOES A SOCIETY RESPOND TO THAT? AND YOU MUST TAKE IMMIGRATION INTO ACCOUNT. I MEAN -- >> Steve: LET ME TAKE IT OFF THE TABLE FOR A SECOND. FOR ARGUMENT'S SAKE I'M GOING TO TAKE IT OFF THE TABLE FOR A SECOND. IF WE ALL DECIDED WE WEREN'T GOING TO HAVE CHILDREN ANYMORE, LIKE, CANADA'S DONE FOR, RIGHT? THAT'S THE ARGUMENT YOU HEAR. >> Molly Peacock: LET'S SAY THIS: I THINK THAT THESE CHOICES ARE PERSONAL AND THEY'RE FOR PERSONAL HAPPINESS. I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT MAKING CHOICES FOR DUTY. I THINK THAT THE WHOLE IDEA OF MAKING A CHOICE FOR DUTY IS VERY MUCH OF A PSYCHOLOGY OF THE PAST. I DON'T THINK THAT PEOPLE MAKE CHOICES -- YOUR CHOICE WAS NOT FOR DUTY, IT'S FOR FULFILMENT AND IT'S FOR HAPPINESS. >> Steve: I HEAR YOU. >> Molly Peacock: AS THESE THINGS GO ON, THE SOCIETY HAS TO RESPOND TO IT. SO I GUESS I'M NOT GOING TO -- I DON'T THINK THAT I HAVE TO BEAR A BURDEN NOT BEARING A CHILD. >> Steve: I HEAR YOU. BUT, BRUCE, SOCIETY, THROUGH ITS GOVERNMENT, HAS MADE A DECISION THROUGH BABY BONUSES, WHICH THEY'VE DONE FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY, IN THE PROVINCE OF QUéBEC WHERE THEY PAY A LOT OF MONEY TO HAVE KIDS. WE'VE DECIDED, IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, IT'S A DESIRABLE THING. DO YOU EVER FEEL I'M NOT HOLDING UP MY END OF THIS BARGAIN? >> Bruce Gillespie: I DON'T PERSONALLY FEEL THAT WAY. I THINK THERE IS A SENSE OF THAT AMONG A LOT OF PEOPLE. IT'S PARTLY WHY WHEN PEOPLE TALK TO FAMILIES, COUPLES, THAT DON'T HAVE CHILDREN, THEY FEEL THERE'S SOMETHING STRANGE ABOUT IT. I THINK PARTLY BECAUSE IT SEEMS, AS YOU'RE SUGGESTING, THERE'S SOMETHING DEEPLY ANTISOCIAL ABOUT IT. IF YOU'RE NOT HAVING CHILDREN, WHICH APPARENTLY IS A BIOLOGICAL IMPERATIVE TO HELP SOCIETY AND THE SPECIES, THAT'S FUNDAMENTALLY A VERY ODD POSITION TO BE IN. I THINK IT'S WHY PEOPLE FEEL SOME DISCOMFORT ABOUT IT. AT THE SAME TIME, LIKE MOLLY SAID, I DON'T THINK THAT'S MY PART OF THE BARGAIN. I THINK LOTS OF PEOPLE, PERHAPS NOT ENOUGH, ECONOMICALLY, ARE HAVING CHILDREN. I'VE NEVER FELT BADLY ABOUT IT. THERE'S A SMALL PROPORTION OF PEOPLE WHO SAY I'M NOT HAVING CHILDREN FOR ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REASONS. I THINK THAT'S A SMALL GROUP. I THINK MOST DECIDE FOR PERSONAL REASONS. >> Steve: AS YOU POINTED OUT, YOU WANTED TO HAVE KIDS AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN FOR YOU. YOU TELL ME, I DON'T WANT TO INVADE YOUR PRIVACY TOO MUCH HERE, BUT DID YOU TRY TO HAVE KIDS -- >> Liane Kotler: YES. >> Steve: DID YOU GO THROUGH FERTILITY TREATMENTS? >> Liane Kotler: SIX YEARS AND MANY MISCARRIAGES AND IT JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN. >> Steve: AS WE EXTEND THE METAPHOR HERE, YOU DID TRY TO KEEP UP THE SIDE HERE, IF YOU LIKE? >> Liane Kotler: YES. AND I HAVE TO SAY, WHEN I MEET PEOPLE OR ACQUAINTANCES SAY, "OH, YOU'RE MARRIED. DO YOU HAVE KIDS?" I ALWAYS FIND MYSELF SLIPPING IN, "YES, BUT I TRIED." >> Steve: YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO TELL THEM THAT? >> Liane Kotler: BECAUSE I FEEL AS THOUGH I'M BEING JUDGED. AND IF I DON'T SAY, "YES, BUT I TRIED," I WILL BE JUDGED FOR BEING SELFISH, SELF INDULGENT ALL THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED, THAT IT SEEMS ANOMALOUS TO LIFE. >> Steve: I DON'T KNOW HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU STARTED ALL THAT, BUT IS THERE -- >> Liane Kotler: ABOUT 38. >> Steve: YOU WERE 38. >> Liane Kotler: WE STARTED TRYING AT ABOUT -- I WAS ABOUT 35, AND THEN WOUND UP IN FERTILITY TREATMENT A COUPLE OF YEARS LATER. >> Steve: AGAIN, ASKED WITHOUT JUDGMENT: IS THERE A LESSON HERE IN, YOU'VE GOT TO START EARLIER? >> Liane Kotler: WOMEN NEED TO KNOW THEIR FERTILITY IS SKYDIVING DOWN AT AGE 27, AND BY AROUND AGE 42, IT'S FLAT ON THE GROUND, IT'S DONE. WE NEED TO GET THAT MESSAGE OUT. >> Steve: SO IF YOU WANT TO HAVE KIDS, GET TO IT? >> Liane Kotler: YES. >> Steve: DON'T WAIT. >> Liane Kotler: NO. AND FREEZING YOUR EGGS IS REALLY NOT THE SOLUTION, I DON'T THINK. >> Steve: REALLY? >> Liane Kotler: BECAUSE IT'S RISKY. IT'S NOT A GIVEN OR A GUARANTEE THAT THEY WON'T HAVE EXPIRED IN THE FREEZER. >> Steve: LET ME PICK UP ON THIS NOTION OF JUDGMENT THAT YOU JUST PUT ON THE TABLE AND, MOLLY, I WANT TO FIND OUT WHETHER, ONCE YOU MADE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR TO YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT MOTHERHOOD WAS NOT IN THE PICTURE FOR YOU, WHAT WAS THE FEEDBACK? >> Molly Peacock: ACTUALLY, I THINK IN MANY WAYS I'VE LIVED A LIFE THAT WAS MY MOTHER'S DREAM LIFE. >> Steve: ISN'T THAT INTERESTING? >> Molly Peacock: SO I THINK THAT SHE WANTED TO HAVE CREATIVE FREEDOM AND THAT SHE WANTED TO HAVE A DIFFERENT KIND OF LIFE THAN SHE HAD, AND SO -- >> Steve: EVEN A CHILDLESS LIFE? >> Liane Kotler: CHILD-FREE. >> Molly Peacock: EVEN A CHILD-FREE LIFE. I NEVER GOT NEGATIVE FEEDBACK FROM MY MOTHER AND I WOULD ASK HER ABOUT IT, AND SHE WOULD SAY, "YOU GO AHEAD AND LEAD THE LIFE THAT YOU NEED TO LIVE." AND ALSO I'M THE FIRST PERSON IN MY FAMILY TO GO TO COLLEGE. I COME FROM A WORKING CLASS BACKGROUND. I WANTED TO BE A WRITER. IT WAS SO UNUSUAL IN MY FAMILY, FOR SOMEBODY TO WANT TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO I WAS AN ANOMALY AND NOBODY QUITE UNDERSTOOD ME BUT AT THE SAME TIME I WAS GOING FOR A DREAM. >> Steve: HANG ON FOR A SEC, MOLLY. IT'S ONE THING TO SAY IN, YOU KNOW -- IT'S GOT TO HURT WHEN YOUR MOTHER SAYS TO YOU, I KIND OF WISH I NEVER HAD KIDS. >> Molly Peacock: IT DOES, AND I THINK I TOOK IT IN. AND PART OF THAT IS PART OF MY OWN DEVELOPMENT AS A PERSON. I HAD TO FIND A WAY TO GROW AROUND THAT. SO THERE WAS THAT NEGATION IN THE BEGINNING. AND ON TOP OF IT, I HAD ALL OF THE MOTHER DUTIES. SO THAT'S REALLY PSYCHOLOGICALLY COMPLICATED. YOU HAVE TO FIND YOUR -- IT TAKES YEARS TO FIND YOUR WAY THROUGH THAT, AND THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY THERE. >> Steve: DID YOU EVER FOR GIVE HER TO -- FORGIVE HER FOR SAYING THAT TO YOU? >> Molly Peacock: YES. >> Steve: KIND OF PERSONAL, BUT I WISH I NEVER HAD KIDS. THAT'S PROBABLY HOW SHE MEANT IT. MOLLY, DON'T TAKE THIS PERSONALLY, BUT I WISH I HAD NEVER HAD KIDS. I'M JEALOUS OF YOUR LIFE. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? >> Molly Peacock: I DO, I DO. IT'S THAT SAME KIND OF -- IT'S WHAT LIANE IS TALKING ABOUT, IT'S LIKE THE FLIP SIDE OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT WHERE YOU DO -- I HAD A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH MY MOTHER. WE DID LOTS OF THINGS TOGETHER AND GOSSIPPED TOGETHER, BUT THERE WERE THESE -- YOU GET TO A LITTLE MOMENT THERE AND THE DISCONNECT EXISTS. >> Steve: YEAH. BRUCE, DO YOU THINK PEOPLE FIND IT DIFFICULT TO LET GO OF THIS IMAGE OF THE QUOTE, UNQUOTE, NUCLEAR FAMILY BEING NORMAL? >> Bruce Gillespie: I THINK SO. AS YOU SAID BEFORE, EVERYWHERE WE LOOK, THE NUCLEAR FAMILY IS STILL PERCEIVED AS THE BEST, THE NORMAL, WHAT WE SHOULD BE AIMING FOR. WHETHER THAT'S SORT OF JUST TALKING TO PEOPLE YOU KNOW, YOUR OWN FAMILIES, OR THROUGH FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS. >> Steve: IRONICALLY, IT REALLY ISN'T ANYMORE, IS IT? >> Bruce Gillespie: STATISTICALLY, IT'S FAR FROM IT. THERE ARE FEWER FAMILIES, THERE'S LOTS OF DIVORCE, CO-PARENTING. FAMILIES CAN BE SO MUCH MORE DIFFERENT IN THE 21ST CENTURY THAN THEY WERE A GENERATION AGO. THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS WE CAN MAKE FAMILIES, SOMETIMES IT'S TWO MEN, SOMETIMES TWO WOMEN, SOMETIMES THERE'S KIDS, SOMETIMES THERE'S NOT. WE NEED TO BE MORE OPEN AND HAVE DISCUSSIONS. >> Steve: I AM TOTALLY INTRIGUED HOW YOU WENT FROM BEING SOMEBODY WHO, FOR, LET'S SAY, 41, 42, 43 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE, ASSUMED THAT CHILDREN WOULD BE A PART OF THAT PICTURE. >> Liane Kotler: MM-HMM. >> Steve: AND THEN SOMEHOW MADE YOUR PEACE WITH THE NOTION THAT ACTUALLY IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THAT WAY AT ALL. HOW DID YOU DO THAT? >> Liane Kotler: I GOT FED UP OF CRYING. I JUST HAD ONE DAY WHEN I WOKE UP AND I JUST THOUGHT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. LET'S JUST LIVE OUR LIVES. I'M IN A LOVELY MARRIAGE WITH A LOVELY MAN. LET'S JUST GET ON WITH IT. BECAUSE FOR YEARS OUR LIVES WERE FOCUSED AROUND GETTING PREGNANT, AND THEN I HAD A COUPLE OF PREGNANCIES, THEY WERE THE HAPPIEST TIME OF MY LIFE. BUT THEY DIDN'T COME TO FRUITION, OBVIOUSLY. YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE PEACE WITH IT. IF YOU WANT TO LIVE A HAPPY LIFE, YOU HAVE TO GET ON WITH IT. AND I DID FEEL THIS LACK -- I DID FEEL CHILDLESS, AND OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEARS OF DOING FERTILITY TREATMENTS, I WORKED ON MY GARDEN, I CULTIVATED NEW FRIENDSHIPS, I TOOK ART CLASSES, TRAVELLED, AND I STARTED TO REALIZE, THIS IS PRETTY GOOD. THIS IS GREAT. WE HAVE TWO DOGS, I HAVE NIECES AND NEPHEWS, I HAVE A LOVELY FAMILY. >> Steve: YOU'VE GOT A GREAT JOB. YOU HAVE A FULL LIFE. YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF GOOD THINGS HAPPENING IN YOUR LIFE. >> Liane Kotler: RECENTLY I WAS A VISITING LECTURER AT QUEEN'S. THAT IS A JOB I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO IF I HAD HAD CHILDREN. SO THE CONSOLATION PRIZE OF NOT HAVING CHILDREN IS NOT HAVING CHILDREN. WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEM. NOW MANY OF MY FRIENDS, THEIR CHILDREN ARE IN THEIR TEENAGE YEARS, AND I KIND OF THING, WOW, I THINK I DODGED A BULLET. >> Steve: WELL, THEIR LIVES ARE CERTAINLY MORE HARRIED THAN YOURS, AREN'T THEY? >> Liane Kotler: THEY ARE. I WON'T SAY THEY'RE MORE FULFILLED. >> Steve: IS THIS SOMETHING -- I MEAN, YOU SAY YOU GOT TIRED OF WAKING UP CRYING EVERY DAY. >> Liane Kotler: MM-HMM. >> Steve: I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO SAY IT BUT I'LL JUST SAY IT. ARE YOU KIND OF OVER -- ARE YOU OVER IT? >> Liane Kotler: IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE IN THIS DAY AND AGE, WITH REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGY, MY HUSBAND AND I WILL JOKE ABOUT IT. EGG DONOR SURROGATE? HMM? MAYBE. IT'S UNLIKELY. SO WE KIND OF STILL HAVE THIS DREAM. IT'S NOT REALITY. SO WE KIND OF HAVE THESE FANTASTIC CHILDREN, LIKE SCIENCE FICTION CHILDREN, WHICH IS ACTUALLY NOT SCIENCE FICTION WITH PREPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGY. SO I -- REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGY. SO I THINK SO MUCH OF OUR RELATIONSHIP WAS SPENT TRYING TO HAVE CHILDREN THAT WE NEVER REALLY 100 PERCENT GIVE UP ON THE NOTION. WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE CHILDREN, BUT THE IDEA -- >> Steve: HAS TO SAY THERE. >> Liane Kotler: I MEAN, THERE ARE WOMEN THAT HAVE BEEN IMPREGNATED IN THEIR 60s AND HAVE HAD LIVE BIRTHS. >> Steve: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ONE OF THEM? >> Liane Kotler: IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY. >> Steve: ISN'T THAT FUNNY. YOU STILL WON'T SAY NO. YOU SAY IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY. >> Liane Kotler: YES. >> Steve: BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO HANG ONTO THAT DREAM OF PARENTHOOD? >> Liane Kotler: I'M NOT PATHETICALLY HANGING ON TO THIS DREAM, AND QUITE FRANKLY, AT MY AGE, I DON'T WANT TO BE AN OLD PARENT. AND AS I MENTIONED, WE'RE EMPTY NESTERS. DO WE REALLY WANT TO EMBARK ON THAT NOW? BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. WE WILL NOT FLAT-OUT SAY NEVER. NEVER SAY NEVER. >> Steve: ADOPTION WAS NEVER AN ISSUE FOR YOU GUYS? >> Liane Kotler: I LOVE THAT QUESTION AND I HATE THAT QUESTION. >> Steve: BECAUSE ... >> Liane Kotler: WHY DIDN'T YOU ADOPT. >> Steve: WHY DIDN'T I? >> Liane Kotler: YOU DIDN'T NEED TO. IT WAS A RHETORICAL QUESTION. YOU DIDN'T NEED TO. WITH REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGY, WE DON'T NEED TO. AND ALSO I WOULDN'T WANT TO HAVE ADOPTION AS THE SECOND CHOICE. UNLESS YOU'RE ANGELINA JOLIE, MOST PEOPLE WANT BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN. AND THE REASON WHY I DISLIKE THAT QUESTION IS, WHY SHOULD IT BE THE BURDEN UPON THOSE WHO ARE INFERTILE OR WHO CAN'T HAVE BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN, THAT THEY MUST ADOPT, IT'S THEIR DUTY TO ADOPT? WE EXPLORED THAT OPTION. WE WENT DOWN THAT ROUTE WHEN THE FERTILITY TREATMENTS SEEMED TO HAVE COME TO AN END, BUT THEY HAVEN'T REALLY, THEY DON'T EVER REALLY. AND IT WAS LOOKING LIKE IT WOULD TAKE ABOUT 5 YEARS BEFORE A CHILD WOULD COME INTO OUR LIVES AND WE WERE LOOKING AT OUR LATE 40s, AND AT THAT POINT I WAS SO EXHAUSTED BY THE DISAPPOINTMENT OF PREGNANCIES AND NO PREGNANCY THAT I COULD NOT STOMACH ONE MORE DISAPPOINTMENT, AND AS I SAID, I WANTED TO JUST GET ON WITH IT. AND I'M GLAD THAT WE DID. >> Steve: THERE MAY BE A SENSE, BRUCE, THAT THIS IS A BIGGER ISSUE FOR WOMEN THAN FOR MEN, THAT SOMEHOW WOMEN HAVE THIS IMPERATIVE TO GIVE BIRTH, WHERE MEN DON'T HAVE THIS IMPERATIVE TO BE FATHERS. IS THAT TRUE? >> Bruce Gillespie: CERTAINLY I THINK THERE'S A LOT MORE SOCIAL PRESSURE ON WOMEN THAT THEY SHOULD BE GETTING MARRIED, THEY SHOULD BE HAVING CHILDREN. THIS OLD-FASHIONED KIND OF DUTY, WHICH I DON'T THINK IS TRUE BUT I THIS THAT PERCEPTION IS STILL OUT THERE. WHEN WE SET OUT TO DO OUR WORK, WE REALLY WONDERED WHAT KIND -- DO MEN ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT THIS? ARE THERE ENOUGH DIFFERENT WAYS TO PUT IN A BOOK? WHO KNOWS. THE BOOK THAT CAME BEFORE NOBODY'S FATHER WAS NOBODY'S MOTHER. IT WAS A REALLY UPLIFTING BOOK. THE WOMEN IN THE BOOK HAD RECLAIMED THIS IDEA JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT MOTHERS DOESN'T MEAN THEIR LIVES ARE NOT FULFILLING, THEY'RE WORTH LESS, ANYTHING LIKE THAT. THE MEN'S BOOK WAS MORE MELANCHOLY. WHAT WE REALIZED IS THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER DISAPPOINTMENTS WRAPPED UP IN MEN WANTING KIDS THAN WOMEN. IT'S USUALLY THAT A RELATIONSHIP HADN'T WORKED OUT IN SOME WAY THAT THEY EXPECTED TO AND THEREFORE THEY COULD NOT HAVE KIDS. I'M NOT SURE IT'S DIFFERENT TODAY, BUT IT'S MUCH HARDER FOR A SINGLE MAN TO ADOPT THAN A SINGLE WOMAN WOULD BE. THE LACK OF CHILDREN IN THOSE CASES FOR MEN WHO WANTED TO HAVE KIDS AND COULD NOT, IT WAS REALLY WRAPPED UP IN A WHOLE BUNCH OF DISAPPOINTMENTS. I THINK THE SOCIAL PRESSURES ARE DIFFERENT, WOMEN, THE SOCIAL IDEA IS WHEN THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE CHILDREN, IT'S A BIOLOGICAL IMPERATIVE. FOR MEN THE CONCERN SEEMS TO BE COMING FROM FAMILY, YOU'RE NOT CARRYING ON THE FAMILY NAME, THE GENES, COLLECTIVE FAMILY WISDOM. >> Steve: NAME. >> Bruce Gillespie: EXACTLY. YOU ARE THE END OF THE LINE. THAT WAS DIFFERENT TOO. >> Steve: DO YOU BELIEVE, MOLLY, THERE'S THIS THING CALLED MATERNAL INSTINCT, OR IS THIS MORE OF AN OUTSIDE SOCIAL PRESSURE ON YOU? >> Molly Peacock: WELL, IT'S INTERESTING. WHEN I FIRST HEARD ABOUT THE MYTH OF MATERNAL INSTINCT, MY FIRST REACTION WAS, WELL, OF COURSE THERE ARE MATERNAL INSTINCTS. THEN I THOUGHT, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE. IS THIS MERELY A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT? IS THE MYTH OF MATERNAL INSTINCT KIND OF LIKE THE MYTH OF THE VAGINAL ORGASM? IS IT SOMETHING THAT WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUR WAY THROUGH TO GET OVER IN THE SAME WAY THAT WOMEN ALWAYS HAVE TO TEACH SOCIETY ABOUT THEIR BODIES? MAYBE THE IDEA OF -- AND WE SHOULD SAY WHAT THAT IS, THAT IN THE BOOK, IN MEGAN DOM'S RECENT ANTHOLOGY, LAURA KIPNESS SAYS -- >> Steve: I HAVE THE QUOTE RIGHT HERE. SHELDON, LET'S BRING THIS UP. HERE IS WHAT LAURA SAYS ... >> Steve: DO YOU AGREE? >> Molly Peacock: I'M VERY INTRIGUED BY THIS IDEA. I'M VERY TEMPTED. IT WAS A NEW IDEA AS I READ IT AND I THOUGHT, WOW, HAVE I BOUGHT INTO -- HAVE I BOUGHT INTO A CULTURAL CONSTRUCT? I'VE BOUGHT INTO A LOT OF DIFFERENT CULTURAL CONSTRUCTS OVER TIME. SO WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT AS A MYTH? WELL, I THINK THAT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WOULD FEEL RELEASED AND PEOPLE'S CHOICES WOULD BE MORE HIGHLIGHTED. AND SO I THINK THAT'S A GOOD THING. >> LIANE, IF YOU HAVE A MATERNAL INSTINCT, WHICH I ASSUME YOU DO, CAUSE YOU WANTED TO HAVE KIDS FOR FORTY PLUS YEARS, WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT INSTINCT WHEN YOU'RE CHILD FREE? >> Liane: I'M A VERY DOTING WIFE I MAKE BREAKFAST IN BED FOR MY HUSBAND MOST MORNINGS, I TRY TO BE AS INVOLVED IN MY NEICES AND NEPHEWS LIVES AS POSSIBLE, I HAVE A VERY FERTILE GARDEN, IT'S VERY LOVELY AND IT'S TAKEN ABOUT A DECADE FOR IT TO COME INTO BEING SO LOVELY. SO I LIKE TO THINK I CONTRIBUTE TO THE WORLD IN WHICH I LIVE IN MYRIAD WAYS, THAT IS NOT THE WAY I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE, WITH MY OWN CHILDREN, BUT I TRY TO EDUCATE PEOPLE IN ONTARIO EN-MASS BY WORKING HERE AT TVO , AND I TRY TO MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE IN SMALL AND DIFFERENT WAYS THAN HAVING HAD CHILDREN. >> Steve: BRUCE, DO YOU EVER WONDER WHETHER YOU ARE MISSING OUT ON THE RICHNESS, INTERPRET THAT HOWEVER YOU WANT, OF LIFE BY NOT HAVING KIDS? >> Bruce Gillespie: I DON'T, ACTUALLY, AND IT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE WHEN THE BOOK CAME OUT, A FRIEND OF MINE SAID, I THINK YOU'RE MISSING OUT ON A SINGULAR HUMAN EXPERIENCE. AND I SAID MAYBE I AM, MAYBE I'M NOT. I'M NOT GOING TO GO TO THE MOON EITHER BUT I THINK MY LIFE WILL BE FINE WITHOUT THAT. IS IT SOMETHING THAT LEAVES ME LESS FULFILLED OR LESS OF A PERSON? I DON'T THINK SO. I NEVER HAVE THOSE QUESTIONS. I'M COMPLETELY HAPPY WITH MY LIFE, I'M HAPPY WITH MY CHOICES, AND I THINK MY LARGER FAMILY IS HAPPY WITH THOSE CHOICES AS WELL. THEY'VE BEEN GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO SAY, YOU'RE MAKING YOUR OWN DECISIONS. THAT'S REALLY GREAT. I THINK IT'S INTERESTING TOO WHEN I WAS SORT OF AT THE AGE WHEN PEOPLE NORMALLY THINK ABOUT KIDS BECAUSE I WAS GAY THERE WAS LIKE -- AND THIS IS MANY YEARS AGO -- THERE WAS REALLY NO THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD GET MARRIED, LET ALONE HAVE KIDS. WHEREAS NOW THOSE PRESSURES ARE THERE AND I HEAR FROM YOUNG QUEER PEOPLE SAYING I'M ACTUALLY FACING FAMILY PRESSURE TO MAKE THIS OFFICIAL AND HAVE KIDS. FOR PEOPLE IN MY GENERATION, OLDER, IT WAS NEVER A CONSIDERATION. >> Steve: LET ME REITERATE WHAT I SAID OFF THE TOP. IT'S REALLY GOOD AND COURAGEOUS FOR ALL OF YOU TO COME IN AND SHARE YOUR PERSONAL STORIES AND I THINK WE'RE ALL THE BETTER FOR IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO MOLLY PEACOCK, AUTHOR OF "PARADISE PIECE BY PIECE", BRUCE GILLESPIE THE EDITOR OF NOBODY'S FATHER, LIFE WITHOUT KIDS, LIANE KOTLER, JOURNALIST HERE AT TVO. GREAT TO HAVE YOU ALL ON TVO TONIGHT. >> THANK YOU.
Info
Channel: TVO Today | The Agenda
Views: 174,232
Rating: undefined out of 5
Keywords: TVO, TVOntario, The Agenda with Steve Paikin, current affairs, analysis, debate, politics, policy, no kids, childless, child-free, life without children, demographics
Id: C7E-s52QI2k
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 29min 48sec (1788 seconds)
Published: Thu Jun 25 2015
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