LET'S TALK TECH-TIME TO BLAME THE TUNE! NOVA GIVEAWAY CONTINUED!

yeah we're live i can see everyone so i'm late 7 27 right now what i was trying to do is i set a goal for today to get my video up on the 900 horsepower big block chevy combos we have before i started the live feed and i'm a man of my work to myself even to myself so i got it finished and got it up posted just recently and so now i'm now i'm coming here at 27 minutes after doing the live feed well that's up and you guys can sneak over take a look at do dual screens you know all kinds of crazy stuff but on the 900 horsepower big block thing there's cool stuff because i ran a 565 inch big block naturally aspirated motor with a wilson ported tunnel ram and airflow research heads and a big roller cam although it didn't have high compression it was only ten and a half to one because i like doing the dual purpose motors for the dyno so that i can run boost on them and all kinds of stuff so that one worked out really well and then the other one was a 496 inch stroker that did you know was made good power you know mid high 600s and then we added a 671 supercharger on that ran it at different boost levels and then the last one was a gen 6 junkyard 454 with heads of cayman intake and then two cheap ebay gt45 turbo ebay wherever you can get them everywhere two gt5 uh gt45 turbos and then we just ran enough boost to push it up to 900 horsepower and that was obviously all fairly easy so making 900 horsepower obviously the most difficult thing is the n a version but at 565 inches and when you have enough head flow and you've got a good intake manifold and two dominators on that stuff really that combination with a few tweaks to it could probably be a lot closer to if not reach a thousand horsepower with enough static impressions that would be it that would be a good combination although it gets harder and harder to do with um standard valve angle heads um if you do a 20 degree head like the brodex or i think airflow research has some also if you do those altered valve angle heads they flow a lot more and usually you can make more power they obviously take dedicated pistons and and valve train stuff i think a lot of those heads probably have to have shaft rockers like um like the gesso stuff i've never run any of those 20 degree heads uh they run a lot of those at westec but i've never put them together a motor with them the the heads that i had on here on this 565 were airflow research 357s i think so they flowed like 425 or 430 so they were doing pretty well so we made good power given the flow numbers if you multiply that out um we were looking at let's see 44 divided by 425 uh so we were at 2.22 um horsepower per cfm so it you know it was it was fairly efficient pretty good for a a wet sump motor stuff again not real high compression only ten and a half to one um i like to i like to be in that range rather than being up a little bit higher um brulee calls the like 11 and a half 12 the one in that range he calls that like no man's land he said either do a ten to one motor or if you're going to put compression and enough compression where you have to run like race gas and he said then just put compression in make it a 14 to one motor make it all kinds of compression and if you're gonna it's gonna be a dedicated you know n a motor and that's that's exactly right and then if you're gonna do that then you start going to the other steps especially if a guy that had something like this that kind of tunnel ram on there you'd have um you know you could put bigger heads on it and you could put more camshaft and this was this is a pretty healthy cam it was an 800 lift cam um not not radical by any means and again you know low compression it did very well i was very happy with it took a long it took a a a fairly extensive dino session to get it up to that power level started out i thought something was definitely wrong with the motor when we first started but it we kept with living whittling away at it and whittling away and finally it got up to where it was making you know it made 944 horsepower so it did really well um tonight we're going to talk about blaming the tune so so i'm going to we'll start and i'll get a poll going this would be a simple one is the tune always to blame so we'll see how that goes so the for those that are not familiar with this i i'm a lot of the guys that are here for the life you probably are one of the big things and the and the poor guys at west tech like ish and eric uh get this kind of stuff all the time they get guys that bring their cars in for the first time or bring them in again because you know after it gets tuned and then they go driving around then somehow the tune falls out of it like my favorite meme is the the kid riding the stick riding the bike and then puts the stick in the spoke and he wrecks and then the stick's laying on the ground and stupid tune i think i don't know why that just gets to me um it just shows the level of what's going on so the tunes fall out of them um you know and we see this all the time we also see it on the engine dyno they see it on the chassis a lot that guys will have problems with and this is very common on the chassis dyno the problems with their fuel system so they don't have enough pump or they have a clogged filter or they don't have enough line or big enough injectors or whatever and it's like it's always the tune problem it's always the guy you know it's always the guy doing this why can't you tune around that well because you don't have your stuff together you you put your fuel pump that's not big enough anyway in a rusty old piece of junk gas tank that's full of stuff that's clogging it up and your sock isn't stopping everything and then also the filter is the second filter that you have that's not the sock on the pump between the filter and the injectors that's also clogged you know they just go through all sorts of things and again it's always that it's not a simple like thing where you have the air fuel at you know 12 8 and you have you know 30 degrees of timing or whatever because it as i've shown before in these in these tunes because i've shown demonstrations on in these videos of what happens when we change the tune and i we did this i did this with freiberger on engine masters where we went from you know near 13 to one down to nine to one on an n a motor and showed how much power that is so if you were that far off like we i think we we went up i don't know 30 or 40 jet sizes or something we went from 70s to 100s or something just to use two random numbers basically but we changed it a lot so we went all the way into the nines and you still don't lose that much power i mean you you are going to lose some but the thing still ran and it still went wide open throttle and still did all that stuff so you could be off by a lot you know off by your tune and it still works and then the same thing the timing took big chunks of power out of it but the thing is even when we i think we went down to 10 degrees or something on the timing from where it wanted to be like let's say 35 or something because this was this was like a conventional small block or something and so we they stripped a lot of timing out of it and it lost a ton of power it lost 100 or 150 horsepower or something but again it lost a lot of power but it still ran i mean it still worked the um the exhaust glow was a little bit more extravagant with no timing in it but it's still it still works it shows when all the other things are right like you know when you have a loose rocker or a broken spring or a flat cam shaft or a bent push rod or a broken piston or you know there's lots of things that are mechanical things that can go wrong that people immediately blame that they look over at the guy doing this okay what did you do well i didn't do anything we had to have done something because now it's not running right i know it's not running right and you walk it because all brulee has to do is just walk by the dinosaur he's like oh yeah number seven rocker's loose i don't know how he does that but that kind of thing is that you can't tune around that you can't you can't you know if you've got a broken spring no amount of timing and air fuel is going to fix that and but the first thing that you blame always is that hey look what's what's going on with the tune i don't know it has 30 degrees of timing in it like it's supposed to and the air fuel is right so the the nice thing about some of those problems is especially if it was right to begin with and then it went bad you'll normally see this is assuming that you have the airfield meter on the right side if you only have it on one side and it breaks on the other side then you don't see it you don't see a change in air fuel but if you have two of them one on both sides or it's on the right side and you lose a rocker or you know you kick a rocker off or a spring breaks or whatever then normally you'll see that in the air fuel and so you can see the change but we've had it happen a lot that the motor loses power and doesn't show on the meter because we a lot of times we'll run the o2 sensor just in one header and we don't always run 802s on everything most of the time we don't on real high horsepower stuff they do and stuff that's you know high dollar stuff and they do that on my junkyard motors i don't very rarely do they do i do that i've done that a few times when i was doing tuning specific things like in the video where i did um i was measuring a full sequential with individual cylinder trimming because we had a single plane intake manifold on there so i wanted to see how even the air fuel was on the individual cylinders because on a single plane intake manifold you got four long outers you've got four long inners even if everything was perfect they're gonna have changing um fuel needs as we go up in rpm because of just because of the runner length and irrespective of what the flow difference is but what happens is those things want different amounts of fuel and with a carburetor you can't individualize that but with port injection that's the nice thing is you can go in and say hey look these three runners or this one runner or whatever it is because it's not even four and four as i found out some of them are different so but you the nice thing is you can go in and go hey look that one's 14 to one that one's 11 to one we want them all to be 12 5 or 12 8 okay well we can make them that and not only can we make them that we can make them that at every rpm range so when the thing loads in at 2500 or whatever and the signal's bad what would on a single plane intake normally to the carburetor on fuel injection it doesn't care it's like i'm going to supply the amount of fuel that i want to supply because i have individual cylinder trims now um on a true sequential system i can make the airfield be perfect at every combination of load and rpm and and all that and then i compared that to just batch fire just you know doing side to side and then compared that to a carburetor all with the same intake manifold and that's a big and for that i needed 802s because we needed to see what the difference is the other thing that can affect what's going on with the 802s or what's happening with the the fuel needs in that cylinder is the scavenging from the header so if the header is different side to side or runner to runner that also can affect it in you know because if the length of the primary pipe on the header is different they're not all even you know uh especially on street headers um and then also that combines with the intake runner not being even so you get a big variance in what the thing wants like i said because they're longer and shorter the way that they their their particular fuel needs during the rpm range is is different just because of that and for other reasons as i just mentioned too so that's very cool on tuning and being able to do that but the thing when i did that test is i was very disappointed in how little how little power i gained from that because you know you put a carburetor on there and we know that that makes good power on a single plane intake because it cools the charge air and and you get gains from that compared to running so the carburetor makes more power than the batch fire does on the single plane intake because it the batch fire doesn't have you know it's injecting the fuel down the port so it doesn't have enough as much time to cool it you get more charge cooling in it and then normally what happens is the carburetor makes more power if you were to put a throttle body injection and tune it you could probably make as much power as the carburetor maybe even more if you've got the tune really really good on it the problem is you can't do individual cylinder trims with a throttle body injection on top you are putting fuel in so you can charge going but you can't get the individual port the ideal combination would be to put enough into the top and do individual port tuning so that you could have the best of both worlds and and that was tried one time at west tech and i don't think that they were very successful at um i think more because of the application that they were trying to do it on but i think that that would be cool and that's that's a test i'd like to do again i'd like to revisit later on um i'd like to see if we could get all the charge cooling offered by a carburetor or the you know fuel supplied throttle body injection on the top and then also trim that cylinder to cylinder hopefully we wouldn't have to trim very much cylinder cylinder we could just do a little bit there so but we'll see i i do want to try that i have that on my list of things that i want to try um one of the things that i wanted to mention regarding tune is that and this is why you can't take the because i get guys asking all the time hey richard can you tune my stuff first of all no i'm not i'm not a tuner you don't want me doing it the next thing is well can i just have your tune from the chest for the engine i know no i'm not going to give you that either because i'm not going to be responsible for blowing your motor up and more than likely what i have in there might do that only because when i run on the engine dyno unless i go and interpolate all the stuff just to make the graph look good which i don't care about i'm only tuning for like idle and then the transition as i roll in let's say we're starting to run at 2500 rpm so the thing's idling it and again i don't even care about the idle quality i just care that it idles so if it has to idle at a thousand rpm again i'm testing wide open throttle stuff so i don't spend all day trying to optimize parts of the tune that are not important to me because the important part is for me to get the testing done i have to get you know i've got to get the tune to get to get the thing right under writable throttle for the rpm range that i want to running it in i need to dial that in and then i need to change the 10 cam shafts or whatever so the way that the thing idles and less idle this part of the story i don't really care about that so i get the thing to idle i get it to transition from that idol as we go up to wide open throttle as we go from whatever kpa it is 20 30 40 whatever it is up to 100 kpa if it's an n a motor and then it just goes right across the top two or three cells um depending on what exact uh map sensor we have in there and how it scaled but it goes across the top all i need to do is change those as i okay this one's eleven eight this one's twelve two this one's you know okay now now it's all even even though a lot of times when i do that i change it from twelve two to 12 8 and it says oh that's all nice and now your curve is nice and flat but it did nothing to power the power curves just overlay that happens a lot in fact on an ls motor that happens more times than not so you could go ahead and do that but then all the rest of the stuff all the all the decel stuff all of the um modifier i turn all that stuff off so i don't do any of that um it's not that i can't it's just it's a time crunch for me so i got to get stuff done that's and a lot of times i'll even start with an existing tune and we might then scale it for something else for a bigger size injector or bigger motor or whatever because i if i have a i can have a file from a 5.3 and i could put that in for a 6-0 even if it has a different injector it will start up and run so it can be off that for your tune can be off that far it will start up and run if i can just walk in and spray carb cleaner in there and the thing will fire up it that's how far off you could be on your tune and have it still work um but what i want what i wanted to get into as i went on a tirade there is that the other thing that's different in addition to me not wanting to supply that kind of tune because it does people no good um is also that when one of the differences when we do a test on an engine dyno that you guys don't nobody would experience really on the street is that when we go and load the thing at 2500 or 3000 rpm wherever we're starting the motor at we do a stationary load so when i'm tuning it and this is it's more critical really for me for the timing curve since the motor really never sees a stationary load like that what i do is i take timing out there because on the on the load in part where we go to load in and the engine you know draws the thing down to the 3000 rpm starting point you don't experience that anywhere on the street it that never happens um so what i do is i'll take timing away there and then when it releases then the the if i have you know usually there's less timing at 100 kpa at 2500 rpm anyway and then there would be more at the power peak um you know there's always more timing there because of rpm so there's gonna be less timing there than probably there would be on the street because when if you saw that if you saw that rpm um and 100 kpa that rpm you would transition through that much faster than i do on the engine dyno on the initial stationary load so you could get away with a lot more timing the other thing that happens on boosted applications quite often is like normally what i'll do on boosted applications i like to run the motor naturally aspirated to start out with i like to make sure that the motor is safe and happy and we don't have any you know tune problems like broken springs or push rods or rocker arms or whatever flat cams whatever they there so i run it n a and make sure that it works i i then have a fairly good idea on what the thing what the fueling needs are at 100 kpa then all i have to do is take and i just copy and paste that all the way up to 200 kpa for running 14 7.7 pounds of boost or less and then double that and then interpolate that in between those two and i get a really really good chance of being pretty close on the fuel needs for that thing on the timing needs though and that's kind of the thing that i wanted to talk about here is on the timing needs of that thing obviously if we're running let's say we're running 29 degrees of total timing at 98 kpa close to 100 kpa on the n a version um depending on how you have your cells set up if we're going to 200 kpa they're going to go up in increments whatever you're filling out there for your increments how how um how precise you want to get in between those and how many cells you have available to you also are going to determine what that split is but you know let's say that you go up to 110 100 20 100 300 400 you know on up and there there are that many cells you have to figure out how many what's the breakdown of the number of um you know uh how much boost is going up for each one so how much hum what is the first cell how big of a jumping boost in that and then how much timing do i need to take away for that one or two pounds and then for the next one and then for the next one and then the next one a lot of times when i transition on the engine dyno anyway when i transition from this is especially true true on a turbo so i'm going to load the motor up at again at 3000 rpm and it's going to be making boost um it will have a lot less timing there and even transitioning through as it goes through there i'll take a whole bunch of timing away even at one or two pounds even at whatever the next increment is up above my n a power and oftentimes i'll even take timing away at the 98 or 100 kpa i'll take timing out of the n a thing again just to make it safe as it transitions through there which i would never do out on the street or at the track because that would help the thing spool up the way that we load it again gives it an artificial thing so when it gets to that load point let's say that that's eight pounds of boost at 3000 rpm and is hovering in that cell or two cells or whatever it has enough time to be at the timing level that you're specifying there i don't need the transition through there because i'm not transitioning in a gear as i'm doing that that would be very beneficial to have more timing there and again in a car on a chassis diner or out on the street or at the track you'd be transitioning through that so much faster it would never be any kind of stationary load so it would be a lot safer to possibly have more timing in there and that's not something that i do on the engine then so they're big differences between what then they're there or more obviously too but that's the big difference between having the tune there and then having it on the chassis dyno or in the engine dino i'm just looking for you know on the na1 i'm just looking for the wide open throttle 100 or 98 or whatever kpa going across you know from 2000 rpm to 6500 rpm and then boost is a little different if i'm running the same amount of boost then and it's a turbo um we'll spool up to some point and then hopefully if i have the if i have the electronic boost controller on there that will also be fairly flat a lot of times it's not if you have a small turbo on there maybe it'll spool up and then it'll fall off but like almost all factory turbos do um or if it's a centrifugal blower maybe it'll start out at two pounds and you can have a lot more timing there it'll start off at two pounds and then it'll rise up and it'll transition at a diagonal up to whatever the highest boost level is at the highest rpm so you have different in and that's where we graduate this so you you graduate the you you decrease the amount of timing that you have with each step up and boost and also you decrease the amount of timing that you have with each step down in rpm so if you have lots of boost at very low rpm it's possible to have negative timing numbers there you if if you could get your motor to spool up and make 25 pounds at a thousand rpm on a gas motor you might you might have negative 15 degrees of timing there uh i don't know if that's a real number but i have seen certainly i've seen single digit numbers and and it can go all the way down to zero i know i've seen zero numbers on some factory boosted stuff at way low engine speeds i i don't ever get into that because we never i'd never load a turbo motor at a thousand rpm or really even 1500 rpm i don't think i don't think i don't think i ever have we may have loaded it low because it was not making any boost there and then released it and then had it come up and if it's doing that we might also play with timing a little bit because as it's transitioning it's transitioning at a rate of 300 rpm per second again that's not that rate may differ on the street more than likely yours would be faster than that in a car um but it would not be the stationary load so feed of the big block stuff so there's a lot of cool stuff in there including running twin gt45 turbos on the junkyard six liter which needs to be the big bang motor the other thing i'm thinking about on that big bang big block is and i and i've never done it yet and i want to and the guys offered it way back when code was first starting the um the guys from compressor superchargers said hey can we can we run with you on something on one of your motors we want to we want to do our thing they did it with jeff smith way back but um i was talking to them about trying to beat the the six leader ls big bang number the 1580 number i wouldn't do it on that motor again because i don't think that that motor is uh capable of doing that it's leaking water and i don't think i would do that i would get a different one but maybe i'll talk to them about doing it on the big block and see because if the big block beats the ls then all the big black guys will be happy and if it did it with a compressed air supercharger set up because what i want to see is i want to see how low the charge temperatures are so if we can get charge temperatures that are below zero um we might be able to make like a 1500 horsepower number uh starting with a 500 horsepower number we might be able to make it at like i don't know 15 or 20 pounds or something because i saw the gains that they were getting they were doubling the power output of the small block that they had there at like seven pounds so it's really impressive stuff and it's very very safe i mean they're running full n a timing on these things um it was it was really impressive so i kind of like to try that and i want to see if i can because i've never tested it and i'd kind of like to see if we could get that running and that would be kind of cool so let's see what you guys got going on uh rob hi richard a question in relation to the supercharger parasitic drive from yesterday what do you think makes up the biggest proportion of loss in relation to either the boost pressure versus the rpm i don't know what you're talking about it's a it's a pump like a water pump and it's doing work it's processing air just like a big paddle wheel or a vein or whatever and or or think about it as a boat impeller or a propeller so it takes load for that to [Music] process water from one side of the blade to the other to push it through it it takes and and the more the greater the the rpm that you're spinning and the greater amount of air that it's processing because that's drag against the against the rotor so the more that it's processing um the greater the drive loss it's going to be required to do that to do that work it's just work and all that all requires power uh yeah everybody hit the like button come on i'm a matrix seeing the camera what's going on can you port the intake manifold to balance out the flow especially on on five and seven runners on smallwood chevys no it's not a flow thing like the one that i was talking about was a single plane intake um this one was on a ford application that we were doing it on or even on ls it's the same thing when you have um the way that they position the carburetor is kind of central in the intake manifold and so you have four long runners that go out and four that are short it really doesn't matter that you made them flow the same they might already i i don't remember flowing the manifold to see because just the runner length itself is not the only thing that's going to dictate flow so if you were to port them and make them flow the same there's the reflected wave is still going to be different and they're still going to that cylinder is still going to make a different amount of power as we go through the rpm range and require you know not surprisingly a different amount of fuel as as it goes through that it's not just flow just in 5 3 l 59 sloppy stage 2 what valve springs do you run um you need to run something that will allow a 600 lift cam there's lots of springs out there there's beehive springs that will allow that there's there's dual springs that allow that lots of different ones uh in a previous video you mentioned with nitrous sometimes a smaller throttle body may work better than a big one i i don't remember uh i think the if i think back the point that i was making is that as you as you go up in nitrous flow you go down in airflow for the motor so the nitrous displaces the airflow so to make the same amount of power with nitrous um you your throttle body size would theoretically be smaller or your carburetor size would theoretically be smaller do ported heads and better intake manifold make much of a difference in a boosted application or would that money be spent elsewhere you have to tell me which application that is on some applications yes like on the 2.2 liter dodge to get like serious power numbers it's going to need a big camshaft it's going to need ported heads it's going to need an intake metal it's going to need everything same thing like with a 5 liter ford you can make you can get bit what i call percentage gains so but if you're starting out with not very much power and you double it you just have twice as much as not very much so now you have a little bit whatever that number is so if you for instance on a 5 liter ford if you have a 260 horsepower motor and you run 14.7 pounds of boost now you have 520 horsepower which is not a lot when you add um 14.7 pounds of boost to a 400 horsepower motor now you have 800 so all of those things add up to help and that that all works that math all usually works but the flip side of that is if you have an ls i wouldn't do ported heads and i wouldn't put a ported intake manifold on it i would put a cam in springs and then put a turbo on it because those already flow enough to make lots of power especially with the cam and then you can make you know a thousand or more pretty easily without doing any of those 799 heads or 317 heads with 91 octane 5'3 with a turbo i i don't think i would put 317 heads on it but you can try that i think you're not going to be happy with the off boost stuff i just don't know which one of those is going to work better with the 91 octane being the detonation limit i honestly don't know oh james richard what are you trying to test you said something about negative inlet temps you froze for a second and we missed something the compressed air supercharger that the guys from the it's the guys that used to own nos they have a compressed air supercharger and you'll have charge temperatures that are in the negative numbers turbo wander what's going on the electronic boost controller we run is a tc1 but i think i want to try out uh the turbosmart ones twice as much as not very much that's right i have an intercooler with a four by eight by 24 with three inch inlets and outlets will it flow enough for a small box chevy yes it's four inches by eight inches by 24 inches that doesn't seem very big you need a um chili bomb you're blowing out the valve cover gaskets on a pro charge also one then you got a lot to blow by somewhere right or you have um you're pressurizing the pressurizing the crankcase possibly doesn't doesn't have to be blow-by it could be from another line going over there do you have a pcv hooked up to the intake manifold still uh you can get ac to get really cold water air to water temps yeah but not like this in the 14.7 horsepower doubling math is at the same thing 30 degrees na timing and 30 degrees at 14.7 you don't need you don't need the same timing to double the power richard you change injector timing or do all time for coils i on the dwell time i usually put it at four or four and a half um that's just kind of the standard thing that we do um and we've played with injector timing occasionally but i just haven't seen it do very much when i was doing the sequential stuff we played with um eric came in and we were playing with injector timing and we tried swinging it and it just didn't seem to make any big power changes uh dan yeah dodge uses the hvac system for their demon stuff you're also radio content or updates will be coming this week on the 3800 headless my buddy to flow them it's all right man don't worry about that's not gonna run until you're done somebody else do a diet test with the length and shape of individual runners this influence the power curve the medium trumpet shape so all of the testing that's up on this channel with changes in rubber length don't don't count on the on the ls3 valve covers they have that um they have that pcv their small opening in the valve cover with a some sort of valve in it we always take those off when we run them on the dyno i have my v3si up and running here soon on the hits cam and intake ls1 that'll be good i ran vortech stuff on ls ones way way back when that was the only ls style motor that i had and it worked really good richard do you prefer hp tuners or efi live software i i don't use either one of those i only use a poly hp or dominator or i've used fast and the ms3 pro stuff now i don't use any of the factory ecu's one of the porsche gt2 rs is used as a water spray on the intercooler that's cool we don't run the pcv on a turbo engine eric and i and if they did if it's on the pressure side they're going to have a valve in it and if it's on the inlet side going into the turbo that wouldn't be unusual i'm curious about idle spark control and pnd terms yeah dan we used to bring a we used to bring one of those uh bug sprayers we brought them to bonneville all the time to get the to get the salt off but also they work really good when we were running real challenged to help the thing cool down and when i was doing us touring also and the the only we only had to use it one time when the thing was running hot and they yelled at me for driving fast through the pits because and through the paddock because i was trying to keep i was driving around circles to try to keep airflow through there because the fan um died so i was trying to get you know air speed what's a good all-out camshaft for big block chevy with ls7 pistons with enough piston to valve clearance i i don't know i don't know what heads you have on there i don't know what your piston available piston the valve clearance is i don't know what those will take i don't ever remember running a set of um of the ls7 pistons i think that those are like 12 and a half to one or something uh james are you can you can you not hear me mike do you have any recommendations for learning tuning yeah there's lots of stuff online you can just if you search for it on youtube there's lots of like guys that are good at it and good at teaching it charles james you're typing comes in loud and clear check check doing a typing check start tuning class i'm not the guy to do that there's lots of good guys out there that do that yeah efi university ben's really good uh you pay 400 for dongle or spend 200. my favorite starting point is advanced tuning by greg banish yeah and you're not gonna the thing is you're not gonna learn tuning overnight and i i'm lucky because i got eric and ish now um and i had tom before that and ernie before that and i i just learned it out of necessity just so that i didn't have to wait for somebody else to come in and and do it and and like i said the stuff that i'm doing is so it's so simple even i can do it that all i'm doing is um you know if the motor runs starts and runs then all the rest of it's really easy all i have to do is like um you know start loading it and if it's lean just add fuel to it that's just this it's really simple um and i a lot of times i just highlight everything and then add a bunch of fuel and just as long as i can get a starting point where the thing rolls in then i can start addressing individual stuff and i always start with very very low timing so that will never hurt anything so if i can load it and it's in the 11s let's say i'm an na motor okay that's fine that's close enough that's close enough and loaded it what we'll do is load it at a few different points at you know 2500 3500 4500 okay look it looks like it's gonna go it's gonna transition it's going the right direction so now we can go ahead let's make a short run from 2500 to 4 500 oh yeah look it's like 11 5 11 8 whatever okay we can go and tune that really quick and then we then i just go okay now let's instead of going to 4 500 let's go to 55 and let's go to 65 and then obviously i'm on the stick so if i see it go oh yeah it's like uh 12 2 12 13 8 and then i just let off the throttle it's not going to hurt it like that because it's not it doesn't it's not there long enough but then we go in and go oh look what's going on there why is it doing that did it just come on the cam did did it did we lose an exhaust section or something you know what happened there and then we'll go into just that that that sort of thing very rarely happens where you you will get a big change based on what we're doing there and then we just start going up in rpm and then we okay look it's all it's all in the 11s it's all in the 12s now it's all perfectly flat if that's what you want like i said if it's 12 2 and then 12 5 and then 12 8 or whatever and then you make it all exactly 12.75 so that the i remember talking to the tuners to ernie and tom and and eric i said look i want that thing to be 12 8 the whole way there i don't want to vary at all i don't even want to vary have it very intense and then make it do that and it just doesn't do anything to the power curve it just makes me feel better that there's no change it's like rock steady it's just more time it doesn't like i said if you if it's 12 5 and 12 7 and 12 and 12 9 and you bring up the airfield curve and it looks jaggedy especially given that that that's the the scale that you're looking at is only three tenths so these look like big sweeps oh that's that's a terrible you know the tuner guys will say oh that's a terrible i think it's all over the place it's not over it's not over the place it's three tenths of an airfield point and then you go in and make it perfectly flat because if you especially if you go into the big map on the hallway you can go and whittle away and make it exactly perfectly flat so it doesn't vary at all it takes a little bit of work and time and effort you can do that and then when you do that and you overlay the two power curves you're like that that's exactly the same it didn't even vary by one horsepower that's why i don't do that stuff a lot anymore what i'll do is what i will do when i'm tuning is let's say that it's 12-2 okay it's all that's all 12-2-ish um i'm going to add a bunch of fuel and i'm going to make it 11 8. okay now i'm going to take away a bunch of fields of 12-2 i'm going to make it all 12-7 and what i'm looking for are trends like i'm not that's not my tuning method i just want to look if i make a big change and i change it by half an airfield point did it like that or did it not like that if it didn't if it didn't change at all you're like okay well it's it's not not responding to that kind of change in air fuel and so there's no reason for me to go to 13-5 or 14-5 if it didn't gain power there then there's no reason to go beyond that same thing with timing if i go from 25 bit to 27 and we see again i go from 27 to 29 i see a very tiny gain and then i go to 30 and i don't see any gain there's no reason for me to go to 36. it's not going to go from making power then making very little power then making no power to making oh a whole bunch of power that's not the way internal combustion engines work and so you learn stuff like that but it does take time for to do all that so what's going on with james he can't see it so where are we at uh no the tune isn't always to blame 78 do you run wasted spark we do on some motors yeah yeah dan i agree i i get that from the super tuners that know everything oh you should let me come tune that and like you know again i i have to backped a little bit and tell them i'm not a tuner so i'm not going to argue with a guy that tunes for a living but what he doesn't know is he he was never at the dyno knows nothing about the motor knows nothing about the things that we went through um to tune in and what we tried and what we didn't try he just knows that all the all of the little minions that follow him are like oh yeah you should have him do it because he's the guy because he tunes this and this and this whatever they rattle off some kind of things that you know i don't care about but but because he has that sort of following they tell them that yeah you can tune it and then i tell him look i've swept the air fuel from 13-2 down to 11-2 and i've swept the timing from 22 to 32. there's nothing that you're going to come in and change in any of that in any of that you know that box you're not going to be able to make anything the only thing you can do is come in and try injector timing or whatever kind of magic thing that you want to try it air fuel and timing is like 90 of it and then the other little things could be more uh i'm watching this video on my fire stick and test and texting on my youtube uh phone app okay ecu flashing is big business yeah i don't wanna i'm not interested in that uh i'd like to sign up early for the next car giveaway can we make it next to the nova 2. that'd be clever yeah yeah i agree um doe the weight drivability is where the tuning is it is that's the where the transitions are and the gear and all all of the magic tuning part of it is it has nothing to do like the wide open throttle stuff i can do in about five pulls but and then it's not gonna you're not gonna see any change after that all of the other magic stuff that's all that's why i tell people if i'm not a tuner that you don't want me doing that uh mike i i i need to watch that video of the lawnmower engine putting a lot of lawnmower carburetor on there and getting four to one miles to a gallon i don't know how that's possible knowing what i know about carburetors and internal combustion engines i i don't see how that's possible how why would that carburetor improve fuel mileage and deliver some amount of fuel less than another carburetor that you could make it do that you could make any carburetor deliver less fuel so why would that carburetor do that and not another carburetor why would the carburetor improve the fuel mileage somebody somebody needs to explain that to me uh somebody was talking about don i don't need to ask david about 57 intake party i don't need to ask him about that i i'm pretty familiar with it my my statement regardless of whether david would agree with or anybody else would agree with it if you take two intake runners one's longer and one shorter and you port them and make them flow the same they're still going to require different amounts of fuel and they're still those cylinders are still going to make different power doesn't make any doesn't have anything to do with porting it has to do with a reflected wave and so that will not change no other person in the industry can tell me that that's not the case because i know that it's not and everybody else knows that it's not too basically just the laws of physics know that it's not i think i read gm put a bunch of effort into encrypting the upcoming the c806 ec to prevent it from being tuned they did that with the older zr1 and stuff too that took them a long time and dodge has been doing i mean every year they try to to make it more and more difficult obviously because they don't want people getting in there so just for clarification 53 with a 317 lower compression would produce less horsepower off boost but on 91 be able to put in more boost without detonation i don't know that i i know what you're asking and people have asked that a lot i don't know that that's the case i don't know what the detonation threshold is of a 317 head with more timing and or boost versus a 799 or 706 head with more compression and then it's combination of boost and timing to get to some detonation threshold on 91 i don't know which one of those is more i don't have that answer because i don't have knock detection that would tell me that and it would take a lot of testing because you'd have to figure out if you were going for the most amount which it seems you guys are interested in if you're going for the most amount you'd have to try some combination of like if you had the 317 heads on there you have to try some combination of reduced timing and more boost wherever because you tried more timing and less boost and then less timing and more boost on the 317 head which combination of that is going to produce the most power at that detonation threshold and then the same thing on the other higher compression version which combination of that you know maybe you'd knock a bunch of timing out of it and then run run lots of boost whatever that combination is once you tried both each of those then i don't know how because you're talking about different things for each one of those then i don't know how those two things compare i would love to see that and i would love to test that but i'm almost thinking that that has to be done on kind of a production deal on a chassis dyno which then i question the ability to make it repeatable anyway can the aluminum lm4 handle as much power as the lm7 what what is the lm4 multiple lawnmower carbs are required small carbs run rich and his ecu's alters the air leak so it's the same as the lm7 just aluminum so is it like a an lc 9 or an l33 uh i don't know what are the best thousand dollar small box chevy heads i've not tested a lot of the low dollar ones um i think i would feel comfortable with the afr enforcers but i don't know how much they are i think does trick flow have a head that's in that range also so is an lm4 like an l-33 then if that's the case you can run a million horsepower with those the lm4 is the lm7 but it's not aluminum to answer the question he just addressed i personally have recently tested this theory to an extent anyway is a bone stock bottom and five three around with 862 it's a 91 pump gas so what what what did that test did that test which one runs under boost and did we test did you test different timing levels versus different boost levels uh ac delco i i don't think you're gonna be i think you would be happier with the 799 heads driving around for most of the time i don't i think there was going to be a difference between those two things i i think it's going to come down more to tuning and you're going to be able to make a pretty good bit of power with either one of those combinations daniel then i swapped over to the 317 head same boost level unless i will able to get away with four degrees more timing same feel same everything i know it's not definitive proof um so you had three you had 862 heads on it and you had 91 on it and then you swapped on 317 heads and you and you're able to run four degrees more timing [Music] the same fuel so the amount of fuel that you didn't change so that was the power of the same then was the air fuel the same so i'm just trying to figure out which one of those made more power did you run them on the chassis dyno or did you just run them on the street uh the lm7 is definitely a 5 3 aluminum armor iron block uh i've used i've tested pro max a couple of times and the i've tested on the big block they're big block heads and i tested their small block forward heads i think and um both of those work really good uh the ls4 is definitely a front wheel drive but it's a different motor though front wheel drive 60 degree trans pattern and no starter provision in the block the lm4 comes on all-wheel drive suvs i've i've compared um in the past i've compared uh 862 or 706 heads to 317 hits back to back n a and turbocharged at the same boost and the 706 heads make more power n a than three than the 317 head does not surprising it's it's a pretty big jump in compression it's about a 10 cc change in in chamber size and and the 317 isn't a good chamber design the 706 head is a pretty good chamber design also so it's not just size um also you have a change in flow and valve size and coefficient discharge and all that so there was definitely more power from the 5.3 head and then when we ran it under boost there's still more power at the same boost level that doesn't tell us about limiting it i think we only ran seven or eight pounds or something that doesn't tell us what happens if we limit the amount of timing that we can run based on octane and i haven't done that test and i would like to see that so if can we not run seven pounds of boost at you know 20 degrees of timing whatever we're running can we not do that on pump gas and can we get away with doing that on the with the 317 heads because the first thing that's going to have to happen when you're doing that comparison is you're gonna the 317 head is going to make less power so it has to make up that power and then is there enough of a difference in the detonation threshold that you allow it to surpass that because you had to pull so much timing out of the higher compression deal that now the 317 not only is it level with the smaller smaller head can it now make more power with that detonation threshold it's a difficult test and i don't i i've never been able to do it look at the time man people are kind of going off on this uh cat thing that's why i don't run them on the engine dino so we're going to shut off our poll for tonight is the two and always to blame 79 saying no i thought it was though it must be the gas cap uh daniel the other thing that i saw with the 317 head is it wants more timing than the other hits it wants a degree or two more timing to make peak power at bigger not surprisingly bigger chamber and a different chamber design yep terry there was a poll i was uh very cool that somebody reached out and whoever did it thank you very much i don't have your name here but he reached out and actually gave me some dino results from a i think that this was maybe like chrysler stuff um gave me dyno results of factory turbo 2 the 2.2 liter um [Music] turbo stuff so it gave me not only um traces of the power curves what they look like from wow they loaded it down at 1 500 rpm and ran it all the way out to 55 or 5600 rpm yeah they're showing 55. so it shows me the boost curve and the horsepower and the torque curve and to me that's like awesome information because it shows me what's happening with the turbo how the thing's spooling up um i need to find out i need to send them a message and make sure that this is this is definitely engine dyno stuff it's got to be given this power level i like the fact that it's showing the boost curve and the interesting thing is and it always seems to happen like this um that because i was curious on the turbo stuff for those of you guys that don't know and i've got to get going on the on the dodge stuff the early one like the 84 that i have was just controlled just had a wastegate reference line basically was just mechanically controlled and then in 85 they had computer controlled um changing the boost pressure based on detonation and and the computers controlling the the boost curve and then they introduced um like over boost situation where that for a short period of time they would allow the the turbo to make more boost than the rating number like the the seven psi versions would go to nine psi and then the 11 psi versions the 9 psis would go to 11 psi or something so they would allow them a little bit more boost for a short period of time and then they had timers on them and then so you could run that higher boost for this period of time basically kind of one quarter mile run or whatever and then for every amount of time that you were off boost it would add that a bit ability to go back into that higher boost but my question is after seeing all this which is very cool um especially for the period of time that it was my question is one was the power rating of the motor was it rated at that higher boost level and and the answer is no actually because if you look at the boost curve on this factory one like most like most factory turbo combinations that i've seen they have following boost curves so it has the highest boost level near the torque peak and then it falls off at the horsepower peak now obviously the horsepower is still climbing because even on a falling power torquer you have a rising uh horsepower curve it's not rising as fast as you want it to be if they had a nice flat boost curve and the torque curve extended out a little bit further you'd have a steeper climb on the on the horsepower curve but it gives me lots of information and i can discern a lot of that stuff from dyno curves having looked at them for the last you know three decades or so it's um it's really cool stuff and that's the stuff that i like though those little things are the things that i want to look at when i run the two two and the two five motors on the engine dyno i'm interested in a little stuff you know most of the guys are interested oh you need to make 500 horsepower 600 horsepower 900 horsepower whatever the number is all of that's great this kind of stuff like how much different is it if we were to just be able to get the thing to have a flat boost curve how was it if we're just able to run like one of the questions i had is okay if you have access to any of this information can you show me what the factory timing curve is on one of these things when everything is right what is the factory timing curve like what is it under boost how much timing does it have i want to see stuff like that because i want to know if they're yanking a bunch of timing out of it and what happens if we put even with the factory boost level if we put e85 in it we're unable to run like you know the knock sensor never goes off when we're able to run full timing does it still do that or is it taking timing based on boost and since we have control of this running of an aftermarket ecu on here when we run the 2.2 or the 2.5 on there i can make the timing be whatever i want but i'd like to know what the factory one is so i can first duplicate that and duplicate that timing curve the factory boost curve and even i don't know how i'm going to get it to fall off though that's going to be another trick and i want to i want to have it restricted from the inlet side to restricted from the exhaust side and all that stuff so i can kind of get an idea where i'm starting at at a completely stock one and then we can go okay look now here's what we would do if we were running it cold on e85 and we put all the timing in it and then we'd start out with low boost and then on the non-miracle ones we'd run an intercooler and yada yada and all of us so all of that's like really neat stuff to me uh daniel so the seat of the pants didn't really feel that much yeah it has a fairly good amount of power that has to make up before it even equal the power of the other one um and and the other thing is that we and we talked about this before when i was talking about cylinder heads the reality is any factory head on an ls is good and any factory head on the ls if you have the head gasket sealed you have the timing right and all that stuff and you put a turbo on it you're you're gonna make as much power as you need all of those without stock heads are all of those are thousand horsepower hits and so it really is one if one is a little bit better even if one is a little bit better it's not going to make any more on the thousand horsepower turbo if all of them will make a thousand horsepower so you get there one of them would have a better boost response or whatever and those kinds of things but you know really there's none of those are a losing situation no factory gm drivetrain is ready for a factory turbo ls it does it does take a lot although the what's the drivetrain in the zr1 that's those guys have been making lots of power rate uh poor heads versus tropical blower the same mentality as a turbo yeah i would be more inclined to make the n a power output better on the on a centrifugal blower application and i would especially be concerned with more low speed power on a centrifugal blower application because it's going to be soft down low uh cameron if you put e85 an older carbureted car how would it run leaving the gas station it depends on how it went going in was it really rich going in was it really lean if it was really lean going in you put 85 that might stumble and not run if it was really rich going in it would be a little bit better because it would have it would have more fuel flowing in which is a good it's going to need that it's going to need 25 or 30 percent more fuel going in um with the 85 going from e85 from like 91 or 87 or something to e85 it might still drive but um it's going to be leaner in australia we have the gen 3 m90 i love your turbo nsc rs was north south mountain not east but yeah the rear wheel drive stuff is kind of nice in australia i do i do like the 3800 and we have that in the camaro and the firebird but never in the supercharged configuration okay two more minutes i'm i'm interested in putting and somebody brought up an m90 i'm interested in putting an m90 on a six cylinder maybe i'm thinking i'm i'm deciding between the i think i know which one i'm gonna go with i'm deciding between the 292 six cylinder and the slat six i'm leaning toward the slant six because i i like the intake manifold better on the slant six i like that it has individual runners which i could put um either fuel injection on or the other thing i'm thinking about doing is putting a carburetor where the throttle body is on the m90 and just running it and running fuel through it just to kind of see what happens twin m90s remote through an intercooler so the slant 6 would be i think the better choice like i said i just like the intake better ls3 with 700 horsepower gold stock cam plus boost or btr stage 2 plus less boost for a better mile per gallon with my foot isn't did it uh there's much better um camshafts than the ls3 for fuel mileage i don't think that that's a great choice um but i don't know about the fuel mileage thing i i i would not lean toward a stage two i would lean towards something that's smaller and the boost is gonna easily make 700 horsepower i ran a 91 tbi chevy on e85 didn't like it and i didn't care yeah we could the slat 6 dan could have really long runners i have uh um one of the australian manifolds for that and and they make an australia the aussie speed makes a blower manifold for that um i don't want to hit them up for that but i want to put one of these junkyard m90s on one of these inline six cylinders what turbo size for 100 stock 88 vet for five to seven pounds uh your 350 is like 250 horsepower or something like that so it's gonna because that's gonna be an l98 and so a gt45 would be more than enough for that the chevy i have is a 292 that inline six cylinder uh the next yeah i do have a big project coming up i'm going down to do more testing pretty soon here what oil pumps you use in a gen 3 we use stock ones or um you can also you we've also put some high volume things in there when i'm running turbos on them i i ran the 292 the turbo already i can't get the holly hyperspark to work on a mopar can't get the distributor to fire on hyperspark setting just give me a signal on magnetic but not on hyperspark what mods are done to the stock oil pumps you can port them to make them flow more cameron so you'd have to jet up for e85 or anything with timing yeah the e85 we did that on as a matter of fact we did that on the 292 inline six cylinder i ran the the what is it the 5512 the two barrel um uh xp version of the carburetor that they run on all of the um two barrel roundy round classes so i ran that two barrel on with an adapter on this factory intake manifold on the 292 and then we blew through that carburetor we made it a blower carb a blow through a carburetor which it's not and the way that i did that is and we ran the 85 with it the way that i did it is i just put 90 or 100 jets in it and then we just ran it like that and the airfield was actually fairly good michael i'm glad you're here lauren that's good i have an o5 v6 silverado is there a manifold there's not a there's not going to be a dedicated manifold for that you'd have to make it or make an adapter i don't know about turbo kits um kair i don't know about turbo kits specifically for different like chassis applications i always make my own uh dan i'm not i'm not familiar with cotton perry's chevy six cylinder does anybody try a btr lifter tray if if brian made or source lifter trays they're going to be good he's he's the real deal he knows what he's doing ah that's literally the turbo i've got on my 2jz that's it's a good turbo uh e85 burns cleaner do i get points for that yeah that's right okay one more question people are still caught up on there uh let's see okay here we go brandon six point two less than seven horsepower twin gt35 that would be kind of cool because it would look cool um or 78.75 that it depends that choice really is gonna depend on what your package packaging that in what i don't know what chassis it is so one of those combinations is going to be easier to fit they'll both do that power level in fact for 700 horsepower i may not pick the twin gt35s i might pick um twin 30 76s pick the even smaller ones because they'll easily do that uh is turbo flutter really bad for a turbo yeah it's it's telling you that it's unhappy and then it could come apart that's what happens when we run them without blow-off valves did you see power nations crank click big block chevy on the engine dino i saw a photo of it but i didn't i haven't seen the video do you want a falling boost curve on a street car most of the factories are programmed in like that but whether you want it or not is up to you i i like rising curves or flat curves but like i said most of the factory ones are not like that uh stephen if you have a 4-8 the thing that i would be worried about is um ring gap on that otherwise you can run a lot of boost or what kind of fuel are you running it on richard i imagine a tool done with intake and exhaust valves for so for solution piston to valve clearance uh i'm i'm doing a piston to valve clearance video but um any sort of piston-to-valve clearance measurement is going to require you know some sort of measuring tool uh what ec would you recommend for the supercharged 3800 like i said the only ones i have any experience with are fast and holly and mega squirt uh kyr i don't drink wine bobby thank you very much have you richard have you ever built a sequential turbo i haven't built a sequential turbo ls it's pretty complicated plumbing with valves and stuff so it's it's a little harder to do yeah flutters compressor surge it's that nice high pressure wave coming back and with a really high spinning impeller blade trying to stop it in mid flight they don't like doing that uh perry i i i said pissed into valve clearance i know what you're talking about measuring piston the valve clearance requires spinning the motor over and checking the valve clearance usually on the intake on an ls um i check it at different positions but i think somebody put up there it was 10 or 15 degrees that that's we we do 10 before and 10 after normally but i i like sweeping it through that range what's the difference between sequential and compound um sequential is all the exhaust feeding in one turbo and not the other one until it spools up and then exhaust going into the other turbo or sometimes into both sequential pd blower to turbo would be cool so like they did on the lancia but then you have to um stop or bypass the blower and then you're you're also driving the blower unless you clutched it um again it's just a lot of for like the average person it's a lot of work do dish pistons have more clearance we had that on a pole the other night and on an ls they don't a dish a dish the ls piston doesn't have any more clearance than the flat top does because the valve intersects um the dish isn't isn't the whole diameter of the piston it's only in the center and it has an outer edge that's all flat that's flat top on the outer edge unfortunately the piston intersects with that flat outer edge and so it doesn't really do anything for you yeah nitrous helps definitely helps pool okay guys i got to get going thank you guys all for showing up um if you haven't already as always go check out the video that i just put up on 900 horsepower big block combinations in a supercharged and turbocharged you know because variety is the spice of life thanks guys i will see you all tomorrow do

Channel: Richard Holdener

Views: 3,965

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Id: daBLCFGz860

Length: 81min 30sec (4890 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 26 2022