FURY, JAKE SHERMAN, LIKE A REPUBLICAN ON REPUBLICAN SORT OF FAMILY FEUD. TIM AND I CAN ATTEST TO THAT. BUT THE OTHER PIECE OF REPORTING WE TALKED ABOUT WAS ABOUT ONE REPUBLICAN’S LONELY FIGHT AGAINST THE FLOOD OF DISINFORMATION. LET ME READ YOU SOME OF JEREMY PETERS’ GREAT REPORTING ON MR. RIGGLEMAN. THE UNDOING OF MR. RIG PMANGLEMA NOW HIS UNLIKELY CRUSADE IS REVEALING ABOUT A DIMENSION OF CONSERVATIVE POLITICS TODAY. THE FIGHT AGAINST RADICALISM WITHIN THE GOP IS A DEEPLY LONELY ONE, WAGED MOSTLY BY REPUBLICANS LIKE HIM WHO ARE NO LONGER IN OFFICE AND BY THE SMALL HANDFUL OF ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO HAVE DECIDED THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO SPEAK UP, EVEN IF IT MEANS THAT THEY TOO COULD BE HEADED FOR AN EARLY RETIREMENT. QUOTE, I’VE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE, YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND. THIS IS GETTING WORSE, NOT BETTER, MR. RIGGLEMAN SAID. SITTING ON A STOOL AT HIS FAMILY BAR ONE RECENT AFTERNOON. PEOPLE ARE ANGRY, AND THEY’RE ANGRY AT THE TRUTH TELLERS. THIS FEELS LIKE SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO, I THINK, BRING TO US AND REPORT TO US IN YOUR COVERAGE OF HOW 12 REPUBLICANS COULD VOTE AGAINST GIVING MEDALS FOR THE CAPITOL POLICE OFFICERS, SOME OF THEM PAID WITH THEIR LIVES, AND AGAIN ON FRIDAY, THIS IS REPORTING THAT YOU HAVE TRIED TO ARTICULATE, AND I THOUGHT OF YOU WHEN I READ THIS, YOU KNOW, JUST HOW TENSE IT IS, HOW IMPOSSIBLE IT IS FOR THE TWO PARTIES, ESPECIALLY THE NEAR 150 REPUBLICANS WHO VOTED AGAINST CERTIFYING THE ELECTION RESULTS AFTER THE INSURRECTION. THIS REPORTING HELPS PEOPLE UNDERSTAND HOW VICIOUSLY THE REPUBLICANS ARE FIGHTING FOR THE RIGHT TO LIE. >> WELL, YOU COULD COUNT ON ONE HAND AT THIS POINT, NICOLE, REPUBLICANS WHO ARE NOT IN DONALD TRUMP’S CORNER OR BETTER YET ARE NOT OF HIS CLOTH, RIGHT? I MEAN, THERE’S LITERALLY JUST LIZ CHENEY AND ADAM KINZINGER. THAT’S ALL THAT’S REALLY LEFT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND TIM USED TO -- THAT’S THE PARTY YOU USED TO BE A PART OF, RIGHT? I MEAN, THERE’S NOBODY ELSE LEFT, AND I GOT THE -- I GET THIS QUESTION ALL THE TIME. I MEAN, PEOPLE SAY, WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO GIVE UP ON DONALD TRUMP? WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO CUT TIES? WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO THROW HIM UNDER THE BUS? AND THE UNFORTUNATE FOR A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT PARTY, THE UNFORTUNATE REALITY IS THAT DONALD TRUMP STILL HAS 70%, 80% APPROVAL RATINGS IN REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY. RIGGLEMAN’S LOSS WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT. HE WAS IN A CONVOLUTED PRIMARY SYSTEM. I THINK IT WAS A CONVENTION, WHICH MADE IT EVEN MORE BIZARRE AND I THINK HE MADE THE ARGUMENT AT THE TIME THAT IF IT WAS A DIFFERENT FORMAT, HE WOULD HAVE POSSIBLY BEEN ABLE TO KEEP HIS SEAT IN CONGRESS. BUT YOU KNOW, YEAH, IT’S EXTRAORDINARILY LONELY, AND YOU KNOW, PEOPLE MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY FOLLOW IN’S DONALD TRUMP’S FOOTSTEPS BECAUSE THEY NEED TO, IT’S WHERE THEIR VOTERS ARE, AND MY ARGUMENT TO A LOT OF REPUBLICANS HAS TRADITIONALLY BEEN, YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE YOUR VOTERS WOULD BE IF YOU TOOK ANOTHER COURSE OF ACTION. I MEAN, I’VE SAID THAT TO PEOPLE IN THE LEADERSHIP BEFORE. THEY SAY, WELL, WE HAVE TO VOTE TO INVALIDATE THE ELECTION BECAUSE THAT’S WHERE DONALD TRUMP IS AND OUR VOTERS ARE WITH DONALD TRUMP AND MY ARGUMENT IS, WELL, YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE YOUR VOTERS WOULD BE. IT’S A FALSE CONSTRUCT BECAUSE YOU’RE NOT TAKING -- AND I’M NOT SUGGESTING THEY SHOULD TAKE THIS POSITION, I’M JUST PRESENTING ANOTHER KIND OF ANOTHER CONSTRUCT HERE, WHICH IS IF YOU TOOK THE POSITION THAT YOU SAY YOU BELIEVE IS RIGHT, THEN MAYBE YOUR VOTERS WOULD BE, LIKE, OH, MAYBE WE SHOULDN’T VOTE TO INVALIDATE AN ELECTION AND CAUSE A MASSIVE WAR AT THE CAPITOL. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT’S THE VIBE UP HERE AS IT IS EVERY DAY, AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE INTERESTING THING IS, NICOLE, AND YOU GOT ME THINKING ABOUT THIS, SO I’LL JUST ADD ONE MORE POINT. HISTORY TELLS US AND I KNOW I GET A LOT OF TWEETS WHENEVER I SAY THIS, SO SAVE YOUR TWEETS AND SAVE YOUR EMAILS BECAUSE THIS IS TRUE. HISTORY TELLS US REPUBLICANS ARE PROBABLY GOING TO TAKE BACK THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. THAT’S JUST BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT’S PART OF THE -- THE PARTY OUT OF POWER TYPICALLY WINS 26 SEATS ON AVERAGE IN THE FIRST MIDTERM OF AN INCUMBENT PRESIDENT’S TERM. SO, WHAT IS THAT REPUBLICAN PARTY LOOK LIKE? I MEAN, IF KEVIN McCARTHY IS THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, I MEAN, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND FOR GOVERNING BECAUSE THEN, IT’S NOT JUST A VIDEO GAME, SO TO SPEAK, RIGHT? IT’S GOVERNING. IT’S REALITY. IT’S KEEPING THE COUNTRY ON TRACK. AND KEVIN McCARTHY’S VERY CLOSE TO DONALD TRUMP AND REMAINS VERY CLOSE TO DONALD TRUMP, SO I JUST -- THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE RUNNING THROUGH MY MIND IN THE STRAIN OF, WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF THIS PARTY THAT BOTH OF YOU GUYS WORKED FOR SO MANY YEARS IN AND I’VE BEEN COVERING FOR THE LAST DECADE OR MORE. >> CAROL, I’LL RAISE JAKE SHERMAN WITH SOME MIDTERM HISTORY OF MY OWN. ONE TIME THE HISTORY WAS DEFIED WAS IN 2002, TWO YEARS AFTER THE ATTACKS OF 9/11 WHEN THE QUESTION WAS SECURITY AND I THINK THE REPUBLICANS ARE ALIGNING THEMSELVES WITH AN IDEOLOGY THAT IS A DOMESTIC TERROR THREAT, THE IDEOLOGY THAT THEY’RE ALIGNING THEMSELVES WITH IS, IN THE WORDS OF AN ALERT, A BULLETIN THAT CAME OUT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR, GROUNDS FOR KEEPING OUR EYES OUT, AND IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING FOR DOMESTIC VIOLENT EXTREMISM ROOTING IN DISCONTENT OVER COVID RESTRICTIONS AND DISCONTENT OVER THE BIG LIE ABOUT THE ELECTION. THAT’S WHERE THEY’RE ASSOCIATING THEMSELVES. IF VOTERS THINK THAT THE REPUBLICAN IDEOLOGY IS A DOMESTIC TERROR THREAT, HISTORY COULD DEFY THAT NORMAL PATTERN THAT JAKE IS TALKING ABOUT. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, NICOLE, I THINK IT’S REALLY SMART FOR YOU AND JAKE TO BRING THIS UP, IN PART BECAUSE THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT VOTERS IS THEIR MEMORY IS INCREDIBLY SHORT, AND 9/11 ALMOST FADED FROM PEOPLE’S MEMORIES, NOT THE ACTUAL EVENT, OF COURSE, BUT IN TERMS OF THEIR COMMITMENT TO NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO SAFETY AFTER ABOUT FOUR YEARS, AND I THINK IN REVERSE LOGIC, IF I MAY, IF THERE IS AN EVENT, GOD FORBID, IF THERE IS ANOTHER EVENT AKIN TO THE CAPITOL SIEGE, WHICH SICKENED SO MANY REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, AND FRIGHTENED SO MANY AMERICANS, IF THERE IS ANOTHER EVENT LIKE THAT, I DO THINK THAT IT WILL CHANGE THE CALCULUS FOR THE COUNTRY ABOUT WHERE WE LAND IN THE MIDTERMS. I’M NOT A POLITICAL SCIENTIST. BUT I AM A FOLLOWER OF HOW VOTERS REACT, AND THEY DO REACT TO TWO THINGS, THEIR POCKETBOOK AND THEIR SENSE OF, IS MY HOUSE SAFE? AND WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th, THE COUNTRY’S HOUSE WAS NOT SAFE. LET’S SEE WHAT HAPPENS BETWEEN NOW AND THEN. >> WELL, AND YOU KNOW, TIM MILLER, I THINK THIS COMES BACK TO WHERE THIS IS HEADING, AND I ACCEPT AS FACT THE REPORTING ON WHERE THE REPUBLICANS STAND AND THEIR BEING TETHERED TO DONALD TRUMP, BUT I JUST -- I DON’T THINK THAT’S WHERE THE HEAT IS. THE ATTENTION IS. I THINK THE HEAT IS AROUND THE CURRENT QANON MEMBER THAT NONE OF THEM HAD THE -- WHAT BODY PART CAN I USE -- STOMACH TO HOLD ACCOUNTABLE TO A BAT BLEEP CRAZY IDEOLOGY AND I THINK THE HEAT WILL BE AROUND REPUBLICANS THAT ARE STANDING BY MATT GAETZ, WHO MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE SEX TRAFFICKED WITH A MINOR. I MEAN, I THINK THAT WHEN YOU RIP TRUMP OFF THE FRONT PAGE, WHAT’S UNDERNEATH ON THE RIGHT IS DIRTIER, GROSSER, MORE CORRUPT, AND LESS ALIGNED WITH ANY RECOGNIZABLE POLICIES THAT ARE IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST. >> OH, BOY, NICOLE, WE USUALLY AGREE, I DON’T KNOW IF YOU CAN GET DIRTIER OR GROSSER THAN DONALD TRUMP, BUT I TAKE YOUR POINT. >> WELL, MATT GAETZ AND MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE? >> WELL, THAT’S ALL IN THE SAME BOAT FOR ME, BUT YEAH, I HEAR WHAT YOU’RE SAYING. LOOK AT THE VIRGINIA -- I WROTE ABOUT THE VIRGINIA GOVERNOR’S RACE AND I’M SURE JAKE IS COVERING THIS AS WELL. YOU’VE GOT THESE -- THIS REPUBLICAN PRIMARY GOING ON WHERE THERE IS THIS WOMAN, AMANDA CHASE, WHO’S RUNNING AS TRUMP IN HEELS AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE SUPPOSEDLY KIND OF MAINSTREAM BUSINESS GUYS WHO ARE RUNNING AGAINST HER AND THE MAINSTREAM BUSINESS GUYS ARE IN ON THE BIG LIE AND THEY’RE BOTH RUNNING, YOU KNOW, THEY BOTH LEAKED TO FOX NEWS THEIR ELECTION INTEGRITY PLAN ABOUT HOW WE GOT TO FIX THE ELECTION INTEGRITY IN VIRGINIA, WHERE JOE BIDEN WON BY TEN POINTS. I MEAN, THERE’S NO -- THERE’S NO EVEN REASONABLE, PLAUSIBLE WAY TO STATE THAT YOU HAVE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE FRAUDULENT IN THE ELECTION IN VIRGINIA. SO, I DO THINK THAT THE BIG LIE CONTINUES TO BE WHERE THE HEAT IS. WILL THAT BE TRUE NEXT YEAR? I DON’T KNOW. BUT I ALSO THINK THAT AS JAKE SAID, THESE GUYS SEE THIS AS A GAME. AND KEVIN McCARTHY SAW IT AS A GAME WHEN HE VOTED TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION. THESE VIRGINIA GUYS RUNNING, PETE SNIDER AND GLEN YOUNG, ALL THEM, THEY SEE THIS AS A GAME, THIS IS WHAT THEY NEED TO DO TO GET THE SUPPORT OF THE VOTERS, AND I THINK THAT IS WHERE THEY’RE WRONG, AND I THINK WHAT WE SAW ON 1/6 IS THIS IS NOT A GAME, THIS IS ALL DEADLY SERIOUS, AND THE FACT THAT KEVIN McCARTHY THINKS THAT HE CAN JUST CONTINUE TO PLAY AROUND WITH THIS B.S. UNTIL HE ACTUALLY WINS NEXT FALL, AS JAKE POINTS OUT, I MEAN, I JUST THINK THAT THEY’RE IN FOR A RUDE AWAKENING, AND IF THEY DIDN’T HAVE IT ALREADY, ON JANUARY 6th, LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE. >> CAROL, LET ME JUST COME BACK TO YOU REALLY QUICKLY. ARE THERE ANY REPUBLICANS THAT I’M MISSING WHO PUT HOMELAND SECURITY AND NATIONAL SECURITY AHEAD OF PARTY LOYALTY, OTHER THAN THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN NAMED HERE AND I’LL THROW MITT ROMNEY INTO THE MIX TOO. >> YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO SAY, I CAN’T COUNT THEM IN TERMS OF WHO’S SPEAKING PUBLICLY. I CAN TELL YOU THERE ARE MANY MORE THAT ARE SPEAKING PRIVATELY, OF GRAVE CONCERN ABOUT THE QANONERS. THERE HAVE BEEN MEMBERS WHO HAVE SAID TO ME THAT THEY’RE AFRAID OF BEING IN THEIR OWN DISTRICTS AND SAYING OUT LOUD WHAT THEY THINK. NOT BECAUSE OF BEING RE-ELECTED, MIND YOU, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS THE PRIMARY CONCERN. BUT ABOUT THEIR OWN SAFETY. AND YOU KNOW, IF YOU’RE NOT TETHERED TO ANYTHING MORE DANGEROUS, I DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS, BUT IT IS FASCINATING. I HAVE TO GIVE DONALD TRUMP CREDIT FOR THIS. YOU KNOW, HE TAPPED INTO A DIVISION IN OUR COUNTRY, HE WIDENED IT, HE MILKED IT, HE RODE TO SUCCESS IN MANY WAYS, AND HE IS ABLE TO GET SIX OR SEVEN OUT OF TEN REPUBLICANS BELIEVING SOMETHING THAT’S FALSE, DEMONSTRABLY FALSE. SO, AT THE SAME TIME, HE’S GOTTEN A GROUP OF REPUBLICANS WHO FEEL STRONGLY THAT RUSSIA IS A DANGER, WHO FEEL THAT DOMESTIC EXTREMISM IS A DANGER, TO BE
