Music Producer Rick Rubin: Meditation, Creativity, Habits & Self-Doubt |Dan Harris Podcast Interview

this is the 10% happier podcast I'm Dan [Music] Harris hello everybody when you throw out a word  like creativity many people immediately assume   that they're left out of the conversation maybe  you're one of those people maybe you're thinking   I'm not an artist what does creativity have to  do with me but today we're going to talk about   creativity in a much broader sense of the word  if you're moving through the world and making   choices about career stuff parenting how you treat  strangers whatever that's all creativity at least   according to my guest the legendary record  producer Rick Rubin I've been a fan of this   dude since I don't know when just check out this  partial list of artists he has worked with this   is amazing the Beasty Boys Johnny Cash Run DMC  Slayer Weezer the Red Hot Chili Peppers Shakira   Neil Diamond Tom Petty Metallica Adele The Strokes  and Jay-Z and like I said that's just a partial   list the amazing part is that Rick ruin doesn't  even play music himself he's just got incredibly   good taste and a kind of mystical approach to  creativity that draws many of the planet's most   popular artists Rick ruin has just put out a book  called the creative act and it's about much more   than Crea ity narrowly defined it's actually  about how to be alive in this conversation we   talked about Rick's meditation practice which he's  been doing for a long long time the connection   between meditation and creativity why creativity  is a Birthright for every single one of us how   good habits can facilitate the making of good  art the benefits of accepting the magical and   mysterious aspects of creativity his analogy  of the vessel and the filter the difference   between authenticity and sincerity the role of  Doubt when creating the role of intuition what   to do when you're feeling stuck in a creative  Endeavor his approach to work life balance which   was unusual his take on drugs and their effect  on the creative process and his thoughts on the   creative capacity of AI don't miss out on the  uh enjoy everyday walking meditation pack over   on the 10% happier app it's available for free  until August 20th if you haven't tried walking   meditation on the app before I highly recommend  you check it out out here is what one user had   to say I'm quoting here I'm in my sixth year with  10% I start and end my day with it I like their   walking meditations to use when I'm out exercising  or walking the dog the longer I use it the more I   learn nuances and subtleties and refinements of  the process it is lifechanging that's awesome   to hear download the 10% happier app today  wherever you get your apps and get started for free Rick ruin welcome to the show thank you  for having me sir very excited to have you I   thought we would start if you're cool with it with  meditation we talk a lot about meditation on the   show and I've heard that you started meditating  when you were 14 that is true how and why uh my   neck hurt when I was in school and my parents  brought me to the pediatrician who delivered   me who happened to be hip this was in the mid-70s  maybe late '70s and he said my neck problems were   stress and he recommended I learn to meditate and  I learned TM at that point in time and um I would   say probably had more impact on my life than  maybe anything else I've done H Transcendental   Meditation is an organization and a practice that  originates from Maharishi mahes Yogi yes yes yes   and basically with respect to him it really did  kind of and this is a little cute TM trademark an   ancient technique of mantro based meditation so he  was drawing on Ancient traditions and there's been   plenty of research to suggest that TM is really  good for you but on and of one level like what   did it do for you that made it the most meaningful  thing um I didn't know it was as meaningful as it   was until I stopped doing it and then started  doing it again so I started when I was 14 I   stopped when I was in college a year after college  I moved to California and I decided I was going to   start meditating again and I remember I didn't  just start I remember it was a big decision to   start meditating again it wasn't I didn't take it  trivially and it took me a couple of months from   the time that I decided I want to until I actually  re-engaged and from the first time that I sat this   second period of meditation after doing it for  the years I did it before from the very first   time I recognized first of all how familiar it  felt right away like this is a part of my life   that I'm reconnecting with I understood it having  been away from it and coming back to it as this is   a big part of my life and this is a big part of  why I am the way I am whatever that is this is a   piece of it and I think I've always been able to  see past what's the surface of what's going on and   tune in more to the deeper meaning what's really  going on you know not maybe not so much what   people people are saying but what's beneath what  they're saying or the energy in the music and what   emotion is rooted in it or um when people tell  stories that the stories are often as much about   themselves as they are about what they're talking  about I just sought all of these levels that I   did not see before learning to meditate what was  it about the practice the nuts and bolts of the   practice that enabled that deeper way of seeing  I can't tell you I know how it works I would   say that it's a silent Mantra practice there are  meditation practices that are more awareness-based   where you take in everything that's around you  you're aware of everything going on and then   there are meditation practices that are rooted  in concentration and TM is a concentration based   practice so you focus all of your attention on the  practice and if any thoughts come up during the   practice you don't push them down but you don't  engage in them you let them pass and you come   back every time you realize you're not engaging  in the meditation practice as soon as you realize   you're not doing it you just go back to doing it  that's all very simple practice and I suppose so   much of the internal chatter self chatter that  goes on we're not aware that it's happening when   it's happening we all have it it goes on all the  time and through the meditation practice we come   into contact and we get to see this thing this  ongoing argument with ourselves and get to step   aside from it and just be in the moment just be  here now with whatever the object of our focus is   so just to state that back to you as the volume of  the internal chatter went down for you as a result   of doing this concentration practice then as you  moved through the world the yammering voices had   less salience less purchase within your mind and  that allowed you to see things that were here to   for missed yes and I could see those chattering  voices in other people I was aware that when   people were saying things it was rarely what was  going on with them it was a surface reaction to a   situation based on a past experience and it was  just as momentary thing and um I can give you a   specific example in my family my closest relative  other than my parents was a cousin who was the son   of my father's brother and he was my favorite  cousin growing up cuz he was probably about 5   years older than me and he was a cool kid and he  was more of an adult and you know he could drive   before before I could drive and he listened to  cool music before I listen to cool music so he   was someone that I looked up to and he was very  close to his dad my father's brother and then my   father's brother passed away and at the funeral my  cousin lashed out at my father and said some very   mean things to him and my father never really  forgave the cousin for doing this and I tried   explaining to my father cuz they were very close  as well my my favorite cousin and my father were   very close always very close and I explained my  cousin is going through a terrible pain he lost   his dad this is as bad of of a moment as he has  he's lashing out in the world he's angry and he's   close enough to you to be able to show his true  pain to you it has nothing to do with you his dad   just died he's burying his dad that's what this  is about this isn't about you that's an example   of I don't know if I would have been aware of  that had I not been a meditator yeah that really   tracks with my experience that the more you get  comfortable with familiar with your own inner   chaos and cacophony the more you recognize that  that's going on for everybody and that inexorably   I believe leads to a kind of empathy absolutely  and it's harder to um hold a grudge for someone   who's acting out their pain even if you happen  to be in the way when you see that this is not   about you you're a standin for what's going  on and yet I remain pretty skilled at holding   those grudges so TM was really the entree for you  and then as I understand it you moved on to other   forms of meditation yes I've tried vapas I've  done breathing meditations I've done all types   of meditations focusing on a candle chanting  I've done many types and I found great things   in all of them I tend to keep coming back to TM  for some reason and I don't know if that's just   because it was the first one that I learned so  it has its deepest roots in me but it's one of   the defaults that I go to although these days  when I sit down I might sit down to do TM and   it ends up becoming something different and  I'm okay with that yes often in my experience   you know I'm I'm a [ __ ] compared to you when it  comes to meditation in that I've only been doing   it for I don't know 13 14 years but often I'll  sit and do a concentration practice and Once the   mind is settled I'll open up and do something a  little bit less structured or I'll do something   a different structured like sometimes I'll go  into um meta which is the four phrases of loving   kindness that might come up or it might turn into  prayer or uh gratitude and when those come I allow   those to come so you've got this amazing new book  about creativity what connection in your mind is   there between meditation and similar practices and  creativity in the same way that we just discussed   the benefits of meditation in getting closer to  what's really happening around us the same is   true with the things that we're making so we can  be more in tune more in tune with ourselves more   in tune with our inspiration and those aspect ects  that um how can I explain it there's a depth that   we're able to tap into that works its way into  our Creations so waking up and being more aware   of the inner and outer environments can be the  source of inspiration absolutely because we're   refining our senses through meditation and through  that refinement we're better able to deal with any   type of detail or just see possibilities it's  harder to see otherwise just as a foundational   question here and I'll probably have said this in  the introduction but I want to let you say it too   and you really go out of your way to make  this point in the book you're not thinking   of creativity as something that's restricted to  that thin band of society that would call itself   artists your argument is that everybody is a  Creator how so we're all faced with choices daily   and if we're making considered choices that's the  work of an artist if you're not just checking off   things from a list but if you're deciding hm  what's the best way to handle this what's the   most interesting way what's the best uh seasoning  I could add to this dish that I'm preparing what   would it be like at this time of day to take  the scenic route home instead of the direct   route every choice we make or starting a business  is a completely creative act also in whatever job   you do chances are you're there to make decisions  that involve making creative choices we do them   all the time it's funny when I hear someone say  you know I'm not creative it's like you're not a   human being if you're not creative it's it's truly  our Birthright there's this cliche about life as   a work of art but cliches become cliches because  they're true and so through your choices you are   creating your life yes I thought of another thing  related to the earlier thing we were talking about   about why medit meditation impacts our artwork  is if you're doing a practice that involves   persistence and discipline which meditation does  you bring those skills with you into your artistic   practice in your choices you may do an extra  pass of the edit before you turn it in you may   be willing to go the extra distance for it to  be all that it could be because you're in the   habit of forcing yourself to do something that  maybe isn't fun at all times there's a discipline   involved you get something great for it but there  is this tradeoff of I'm going to work through the   difficult times doing this and I'm not going to  stop that strikes me as potentially applicable   or a decent description of the benefits from many  kinds of practice yes meditation really wakes you   up and allows you to take in the world in a way  that allows you you to get inspiration but the   Daily Grind of doing the thing can give you the  tenacity and grit and perseverance to create in   the world which is very hard if you want to do it  well but I would imagine that an exercise practice   could have the same benefit because that too sucks  yeah absolutely anything that is for your benefit   that it takes some energy to to get to do it a  great example is going into ice tubs if you've   ever done any getting in an ice tub you never feel  like oh yeah let jump in the ice tub this is going   to be great it's never that it's always a battle  of will every single time I've been doing it for   10 years every time I stand at the tub there's  a battle of will that goes on where I I'm doing   it now I'm getting in I'm doing it and I do it  again it's a commitment and that commitment for   a greater good works its way into the craft as  well in the book you say good habits create good   art good habits allow art to continue to be made  in other words if you make things using a shortcut   method let's say you get really high to have an  experience that's uh otherworldly and you can   write a great song that way I think eventually and  if we look historically usually the odds catch up   and it doesn't work to be a sustainable solution  so the beauty of this is that we're talking about   Sustainable Solutions healthy habits that allow  you to do good work for a long period of time so   what are the other healthy habits that would fit  into that category an interesting one I didn't I   didn't know this one early on because I was always  a night owl and so many musicians I know are night   owls and we would work all night and I would work  all night and sleep all day something changed   when I changed to be in tune with the planet  and waking up with the sun and going to sleep   not long after it got dark where you're engaged  in The rhythms of the planet in a different way   and somehow again I can't explain it but I feel  as I'm working the energy of the sun is working   its way into the work and it's a good it's a good  thing I don't know if I'm explaining it well it's   a little um it's a little metaphysical well you  are explaining it as well as I think is humanly   possible but you're getting at one of the at least  to me fascinating aspects of creativity which is   that there are lots of very practical and easily  understood things one can do to support creativity   but at the end of the day it's a [ __ ] mystery  absolutely no and I think accepting the magic   aspects of it also is helpful knowing it's not  us knowing you know there's no ego involved if   I'm working on something and it turns out great  that's not because I'm great that's not how it   works I may be persistent and I may be willing to  go as far as it takes for it to be as good as it   can get but that's still not about me it's about  the forces beyond our control coming together that   allow this thing to happen we just happen to be  there when when it happens because often we're   there when it doesn't happen you know and it's  not different do you know what I'm saying it's   like you can we can go to the studio every day for  a month and maybe three days are incredible and 27   are not as good we have no control of that and we  don't know the difference we don't know why we'll   see it happen day to day where an artist will  be playing a song and it sounds okay pretty good   good pretty good okay and then maybe it sounds  unbelievable but you don't know what's different   when it's unbelievable than 5 minutes earlier  when it was okay everything's the same but for   some reason everybody in the room looks at each  other like what's going on because we don't know   what's happening it's we're just uh witnessing it  when we witness it we can say oh there it is and   then it's scary in the room because we don't know  how it got there and we don't want it to go away   so we everybody's uh on eggshells until hopefully  we get through that performance and maybe even   try to do something else while the energy is  happening often as soon as you notice it it evaporates but the maddening piece of this  maddening and magical at the same time is   that there are things you can do to increase the  odds that the magic happens but you can't really   Force it so it's a bit of a conundrum yes you can  do everything right and it can go wrong that said   The more consistently you do as much as you can  your odds get better you can't say I'm going to   go out and catch three fish today but you can  say I'm going to fish every day until I catch   three fish one of the keys there is you have to  be doing something it reminds me of a quote and   I can't remember who said it I think it was  a painter something to the effect of the muse   will visit but she has to find you working oh  that's great I love that it's true and one of   the good habits recommended in the book is  to keep some sort of office hours whatever   your version of office hours is could be for 20  minutes a day it could be for 3 hours a day it's   whatever works for you you have to find your  Rhythm but committing to showing up whether   you have something to do in that time or not  allows something to happen something happens   when you show up coming up Rick Rubin talks  about his his analogy of the vessel and the   filter the importance of paying attention and  being aware the difference between authenticity   and sincerity why he believes that following  your intuition is crucial and the role of [Music] Doubt can you talk to me about your  analogy of the vessel and the filter yes the   vessel is it's us we are the vessel and the vessel  holds everything we've seen and experienced over   the course of our life both that we remember and  that we don't so we could see something beautiful   and note it that's in there and then someone could  say something that we didn't realize bothered us   when we were 10 years old that's in there too the  vessel is all of our conscious and unconscious   experience in life and then the filter is how we  see those things The Vessel takes in everything   and then the filter is how we choose to let's say  recapitulate it out or our version of it another   example of the filter would be if you and I  both did the same thing and wrote down our   experience what filled our vessel even though we  did the exact same thing would not be the exact   identical list your list and my list maybe some  of it would match but some of it wouldn't and the   reason it wouldn't is because it's we each have  our own filter but the filter is not a one-way   filter it's not just filtering things as they're  coming in it's also filtering things as they're   coming out yeah it's like that movie Rashon by  Akira kurasawa it's like the same thing happens   but you get all these different versions of it so  but what is the relationship there to creativity   it's that we can somehow work on the filter in  some way I guess we can work on the vessel too   we can work on both yeah one of the things we can  do for the vessel is curate our intake so spend a   lot of time reading the great works and seeing  the greatest movies of all time and listening   to the greatest music ever made and going to the  museums and seeing what are considered the cannon   even though the Cannon's always changing whatever  the cannon for you is that might get you further   than listening to what's today's top 10 what's  this week's most popular movie those things are   are much more transitory so filling yourself  with the things that have stood the test of   time not to copy them but to like set your meter  for what those things feel like so that when you   make something is like does it fit in this context  does it fit alongside these other things that I'm   filled with from taking them in does it fit with a  beautiful sunset so you can curate your experience   on the one hand and then you can tweak the filter  by doing practices like meditation being in nature   Etc exactly anything to refine the filter to where  you're more attuned to what's going on awareness   practices where you're really paying attention  where you're sitting in silence not with an object   of attention just allowing whatever happens  to happen and to be with it enough to notice   what's happening noticing the different things  that are happening that had you not been doing   this practice would have been complete background  noise you wouldn't have noticed it at all all of   those things also noticing things like at the  different times of the day noticing where the   Shadows are falling or noticing when you pass a  plant or a tree are there any other elements to   it beyond the flower what else is going on there  you know like you you start noticing things when   you when you really pay attention there's a lot  to take in when we open the aperture and choose to   see what's there you know as much of what's there  it's impossible to take it all in it's endless but   opening the aperture with interest to see what's  going on in the ordinary in the mundane there's   usually something really interesting happening  underneath there's some story of Life happening   and again just to double back to your point here  that this is applicable not just to people who   are making something that might qualify as art  as art is traditionally understood but also to   anybody who's doing life at all yes to be a better  parent to be a better spouse to be anything I   didn't know that when I started the book I didn't  know these things I didn't know what was going to   be in the book I didn't know what was in the  book I still don't really know what's in the   book it's through the process of working on the  book I realized so much of what it talks about   is living in a way that allows this creation to  happen turns out it applies to everything again   that that was not what I set out to find that was  something I learned through the process I think   you've said that you thought you were writing a  book about how to make art but you were actually   ended up writing a book about how to be yes it's  I mean it sounds ridiculous but it's really what   happened well because the two are inextricable  you know I think that's the point you're making   yeah another part of it is and there's a there's  a chapter about the sincerity dilemma that talks   sort of against sincerity but really what we're  looking for what makes art great is authenticity   and the authenticity part of it that comes  through what the book talks about it's about   becoming an authentic person in the world as best  you can being a curious authentic person okay I   have two questions I'm just going to spit them out  before I forget them one is what's the difference   between authenticity and sincerity which you have  some questions about and then also why is it that   so many Schmucks have made great art is it because  they were authentically schmucky could be no could   be it could be that they were just being true to  themselves it's like with spiritual teachers some   of the best spiritual teachers have been accused  of terrible things it doesn't take away from their   teachings they're human beings do you know what  I'm saying it's like we're all humans we're flawed   people the art is our it's like the highest how  can I explain it it's our highest offering that we   make that said there are people who make beautiful  things that are flawed human beings just like   everybody else but again back to the authenticity  piece um some names are coming to mind but I don't   feel like getting sued so I won't say them but you  can think of people who were pretty terrible in   their personal lives but did Transcendent works  of art but it was still authentic on some level   they must not have been hiding the bad aspects of  themselves from themselves I think that's right   and I think if you look also we have to look  at when these things happened and what was the   standard of the time and it's impossible to talk  about anything from the past based on how we live   today do you know what I'm saying like culture is  always moving so we can't judge what life was like   in another time if that was or in another part  of the world there are parts of the world where   things that we think of as civil there we would  view what happens in other parts of the world   as barbaric that doesn't make it wrong for them  because that's that culture and that's how they   see it we're not right they're not wrong those  are just two different ways of living we don't   know that everything is an experiment and everyone  is trying their best to solve their problems the   best way they can right which brings us back to  empathy because everybody's doing their best even   though it may not seem like it in our judgment  based on their vessel and filter which we can only   begin to comprehend and they're doing their best  absolutely and when we mentioned earlier sincerity   sincerity has the potential if it happens in its  own natural way it's fine then it's authentic but   most often it's one of the few things sincerity is  the kind of thing that if you aim at it it turns   into like a Hallmark moment it becomes Hollow and  I don't think that sincerity is something you can   call up I think it's something again it's more  like a an outgrowth of an authentic thing may   turn out to be sincere but it's not something you  can set out to do I guess I'm trying to figure out   what's the definitionally what's the difference  between authenticity and sincerity should we look   them up I do they have a different veilance for  me yeah I'm I'm not interested in the dictionary   definition I'm interested in the veilance for Rick  Rubin definition oh okay sincerity has a sweetness   about it authenticity has a raw honesty about it  I would say authenticity is more selfish because   that's how we're wired and if we're being really  honest it's always going to be there a little   or it's often going to be there no it's just  it's the purpose of me making this art is to   share how I see the world and if you don't like  how I see the world I can't change it for your   taste cuz then it's not authentic anymore so the  authentic artist makes their art to the best of   their ability and shares it with the idea of this  is my diary entry this is how I see the world so   if someone doesn't like it you can't change it  to someone else's feelings because that's their   diary entry they're not applicable to each other  yes that makes sense and I guess I'm wondering as   somebody who personally you know I make podcasts  books and things like that there's a on the one   hand I do try to be authentic to the way I see  the world on the other hand I do want to be open   to other people's notes would you ever change  something that you believe is good to something   you believe is less good because somebody else  thinks it would be better or even worse if you   had a fictional audience in mind would you change  what you think is good for the fictional audience   that's the question it's a great question let  me I'll answer it honestly and and hopefully   not take up too much airtime here but I used to be  a network newsman and so for 21 years I worked at   ABC News and I made a lot of work there that I was  very proud of but I often had to change it in ways   that I thought degraded the quality because my  editors or bosses thought that that's what would   be more palatable to the audience so they were  Conjuring the fictional critics in their mind and   so I I didn't have a choice cuz my whole paycheck  depended on saying yes to those quests I fought   them sometimes but I can only take it so far now  that I'm My Own Boss and I'm making podcasts and   writing books that are Memoirs and very personal  I do accept notes but only if I actually think   they're good notes so maybe that's the difference  I think that is the difference I think that's the   difference and I completely understand making the  art to the best of your ability and if you have a   job that involves some other power that has the  power to decide whether you get to do it or not   again you can have that fight but ultimately  that's that situation it's it's very specific   to that situation yes so back to authenticity  and sincerity sincerity has a sweetness and if   it's done with authenticity it can be incredibly  powerful but if it's done with falseness it can   be twe sweet sacarin and miss the mark and I  think when you aim at it that's what happens   I don't know that it's possible to get there  other than by accident through being authentic   right in terms of it really Landing I don't know  though that's my opinion maybe there's somebody   who's an expert uh false sincerity person and  they can just call it up on Mann and we believe   them I think we call them actors I want to keep  plowing ahead here because I have a whole long   list of questions I want to ask you about because  so many interesting things in your book you also   talk about intuition let me just read you back to  you because I'd love to get you to talk about this   to the best of my ability I followed my intuition  to make career turns and been recommended against   doing so every time it helps to realize that it's  better to follow the universe than those around   you it's not always easy to follow the subtle  energetic information the universe broadcasts   especially when your friends family co-workers or  those with a business interest in your creativity   are offering seemingly rational advice that  challenges your intuitive knowing I find this   very powerful but also I find myself worrying  that it's maybe a little tricky because I mean   I've got intuition to you know do all sorts of  things like commit homicides and go into candy   stores and swallow everything so like sometimes my  is that an honest are you are you honestly saying   that that's what your intuition tells you I don't  believe that I don't believe well I'm being um   factious I'm taking creative license a little  bit with my intuition to make the point that   absolutely listening to my body listening to what  you might call the heart has sent me in absolutely   the right direction and there are aspects of the  heart the subconscious whatever you want to call   it that are prone to delusion and so it seems like  this process of listening to your intuition is not   necessarily straightforward that's what I'm trying  to get at in making art following your delusional   thoughts can be a great gift H that could be a  superpower because it's a kind of sublimation so   instead of acting in a violent way I can turn it  into something beautiful artistically well we see   um if we look at heavy metal music for example  heavy metal music often has violent lyrics gory   lyrics and um the music is very aggressive and  when people come together to to hear that music   they don't come together filled with hatred they  come together filled with love and they cheer and   share this like uh Brotherhood of connection that  maybe those people get to feel in very few places   in their life maybe they don't get that at home  in their family um there's a band I worked with in   the past called Slayer who were a really gruesome  band and their shows were like celebrations and   the people who were there that might be the  biggest cause of celebration in their life and   I'm so pleased that those people get to celebrate  I buy that a th% and as a pertains to your career   and anybody's career this notion of listening to  the subtle signs of the Universe versus what your   friends and loved ones might be telling you  that strikes me as tricky and not necessarily   straightforward yeah I understand if you have a  knowingness that this is right usually the people   around you have more of a sense of I know what  he did that worked in the past so this left turn   really seems like a dangerous move and again the  example that I gave was true that every step in my   career that I made that was different than what I  did before it I was told by much wiser people than   me not to do it every single time people with  experience I was a kid the experienced people   around me don't do that you know you're a hip-hop  producer you can't make heavy metal records you're   a hip-hop heavy metal producer you can't make  country records you know every step of the way   every next thing was you can't do that don't think  about it it's a terrible idea and I just listen to   what felt right to me because no one can know I  I don't think anyone can know what's right for us   did your intuition ever Lead You astray I can't  think of an example one can think of examples of   great artists who took risks and it didn't work  you know the sophomore slump the band comes out   with a great first record some people say that  about The Strokes their first record was amazing   the second I disagree I should like their second  record but the idea of the sophomore slump happens   all the time and or you can think of artists who  take a big swing they make a Heaven's Gate or   whatever it is and it doesn't work does that mean  they were listening to their intuition and their   intuition was wrong or they mistook intuition for  something else well who's to say what success is   you're judging success in a very particular way  mhm success isn't necessarily material success   many of the great works of art that we look at  now as great works of art were in their day not   considered that Rolling Stone put out this book  of all of the Articles written about Neil Young   that appeared in Rolling Stone and each one of  his albums would come out and they would get a   terrible review and like after the Gold Rush you  know more boring cowboy songs from Neil and then   Harvest another stinker and then and he would  talk about all of them and then you would get   to the best album of the decade and Neil's albums  would all be at the top of the in the same in the   same publication the best albums of the decade so  you never know and sometimes an artist needs to do   something really challenging for themselves that  allows them to get to their next phase of work MH   if they do another in the mold of the successful  ones before it that could be the end of the whole   thing in a creative life there were these Peaks  and valleys and dips and Dives and twists and   turns and we take crazy risks but they're all  in the pursuit of making the best thing we can   over a long period of time over and over again  and if you don't like this one it's okay you   know that's okay it's like you're entitled to  your opinion it's it's usually the best you can   do in that moment the times when there what I've  seen is the opposite of the artist thinking okay   now we're successful now we have this obligation  what do they want from us where the thing that   we made that was successful we made purely out of  passion when nobody was looking and nobody cared   we were being true to ourselves that's how we got  here and now we have all these people counting on   us and telling us what to do so if we listen  to them who knows what's going to happen and   often the this sophomore slump comes from just  too much well-meaning input from people who   again they they mean well they just don't know  nobody knows that's the thing nobody knows that   leads us very nicely to something else you talk  about in the book which is the role of doubt in   the creative process you taxonomize it into two  kinds of doubt there's self-doubt and then doubt   about the quality of the work can you just say  more about that yes self-doubt is I just wrote a   song I don't think the song's any good I'm no good  I can't write songs that is self-doubt the other   type of Doubt is I just wrote this song the song's  not good enough what can I learn from this song to   make a better song I know I'm going to be able to  figure this out I know I'll find a way it's okay   to doubt a work but when you turn the doubt around  to I'll never be able to do this it's a recipe for   disaster so there's a healthy kind of doubt and  an unhealthy kind of doubt well they just doubt   about different things think about you and the  things that you make and the things you make   are outside of yourself for the most part it's  important to have that boundary between this is   the thing that's outside of me this is the thing  I'm working on and because it's outside of you   it's okay to talk about it it's okay to criticize  it it's okay to tear it apart and there's nothing   personal in that the sooner you can make the work  the work it's outside it's this thing that anyone   who gets involved everyone's interest is the same  make that thing outside of ourselves the best it   could be and there's no feelings to get hurt  there's no you're no good there's no I don't   like you it's not it's never that all it is is hm  these lyrics aren't as good as they could be what   could we do to make them better there's nothing  personal in that given how easy it is to take it   personally however what do you recommend to people  to manage the self-doubt that can be so in idious   and paralytic one is to know that it's not you  two is to get into the detail the more detail   you can get into instead of the kind of black and  white thinking of oh it's no good if uh someone   brings me a piece of music and asks my opinion  my answer would never be it's no good it might   be this is what I like about it this is what I  don't like about it strengths and weaknesses I   might say this is not my cup of tea I wouldn't  listen to this but that's not about it that's   about me I believe you also talk about getting  the artists you work with to put a name on the   self-doubt uh you use the term papancha that's a  poly word for proliferating thoughts that we can   have in Sanskrit we it's prancha can you say more  about papancha peruna and why it's useful to label   it yeah it's for people who don't know about it  it's useful to label it once you know what it is   you're okay I've worked with artists in the past  who have a great deal of self-doubt and once they   understand that the vo is in their head that's  undermining what they're doing is not them that   it's this chatter you know monkey mind once you  can understand when it comes up oh that's what   that is or if you have someone a friend who can  remind you when you start saying oh I'll never be   able to do this I'm no good it's like no no no  that's that's papancha like oh yeah I remember   now yes so I'm in year five or six of writing  my next Memoir and I deal with a lot of doubt   and I sometimes have to just kind of step away  from the computer put my hand on my chest and   you know I wouldn't want anybody to see me do this  but give myself a pep talk like dude you're fine   keep going or maybe take a break or whatever but  you know you're good just keep chipping away every   day make a little bit of progress and you'll get  there is that what happens it's like does it turn   around sometimes sometimes I have to just lie on  the floor and and list a local cat to join me um   I'm not telling you anything you don't know but I  do find that it's very helpful I mean and there's   a lot of data to suggest for those who like data  that this is a successful strategy that you can   harness your advice giving skills on yourself  absolutely I think I talk about that in the book   as you envision if you're really suffering with  something make believe that this is something   happening to a close friend and say out loud what  you would say to that friend who was dealing with   this issue yes and I found that to be incredibly  helpful and to also see that the thoughts I'm   having about how's this going to be received and  is it going to be as good as my last book and is   it going to be commercially successful all that  stuff is just not useful no and it doesn't have   anything to do with what you're doing you're  writing something you're not putting together   a marketing campaign you're not assessing it you  know what I'm saying you those are conversations   to have when the book is finished not when you're  in it when you're in it all that matters is what's   the next part of this what's interesting to go  to from here what can I try next but what happens   after your day of work has nothing to do with it  right so I think I could get even better at this   I think of just being more disciplined of see that  coming up and saying papancha No thank you not now   not relevant not helpful and not in a violent  way no no no it's not relevant it's we'll deal   with you later you know you'll you'll have your  say you will have your say when it's done we can   talk about this but now I have work to do coming  up Rick talks about what to do when you're feeling   stuck in a creative Endeavor his approach to work  life balance his take on on drugs and their effect   on the creative process and his thoughts on  the creative capacity of artificial [Music] intelligence what do you recommend when people get  stuck in a creative Endeavor and again this could   be making something traditionally understood as  art or you know making a decision about anything   in life first thing that comes up I mean there  probably a lot of things but the first thing that   comes up is changing the context of what you're  doing so turn off the lights light a candle go   for a walk change the way you're doing what you're  doing go on a trip you know find a new environment   work in a new place work outside instead of inside  sit in a coffee shop listen to the chatter get   inspired you know find put yourself in a place  that allows it to happen where you can get out   of yourself where there's others stimulation like  going for walks is really good walks are great I   also have done like if I have a problem I'm trying  to solve I might go for a swim and just forget   about the problem but it's there and I swim and  I swim and I swim focus on swimming and at some   point It's Not Unusual to like oh this might be a  way to do it even though I wasn't trying to solve   it in that moment I was focused on breathing and  swimming an example I often site of exactly what   you're talking about I think is in the TV show  Mad Men itself in my opinion a great work of art   and Don is asked by his younger associate Peggy  you know how do you come up with these slogans   and he said I work all day work work work work  and then I go to the movies yeah and zone out   and meditation is a version of zoning out it's  like either getting wrapped up in something other   than your work which would be going to a movie  reading something and really you know falling   into the story at some point you realize oh I'm  I'm reading a book I'm not actually in this I'm   not in in this scene I'm not experiencing this  then when you come back you have a clean slate   to start from yes and the mind is working that  whole time yeah making subconscious connections   etc etc we talk about that in the book The idea  of that when you practice you don't get better   immediately from practice you get better when  you recover from the practice you know it's   like weightlifting when you finish lifting weights  you're not stronger than when you started but when   you recover you're stronger than when you started  and the same is true with practicing piano at the   end of a long piano practice you're not a better  pianist you're done but the next day when you come   back to it or two days later it'll integrate  into you how do you manage your schedule as it   pertains to your creative work do you have to be  careful not to overwork and say if you're going to   do a big project like a book do you need to really  assiduously cut down on the number of bands you're   producing I've only done one book so I can't say  if I was going to do another one how it would work   and the last one happened while other things were  happening and it took a long time it took 8 years   and it didn't take eight years because I sat  down every day to work on it for eight years   but it was just Ono collecting ideas and then once  there were you know a thousand pages of ideas then   there was a long process of trying to figure out  how to make it into a book so do you ever find   yourself having to make tough calls about oh well  I have to say no to this because I need to manage   my bandwidth or can you just do it all and just do  it at a pace that is Humane I'll say interestingly   for the majority of my career without good  management skills it has worked itself out   one way or another where I can't think of anything  that I've wanted to do that I haven't gotten to   do unless there have been a couple of occasions  where I was excited and an artist was excited and   we started doing something and we just there was  some disconnection happened maybe two times in my   life which is didn't work but other than that it  has always worked out one way or another and you   know there was a time when I would be going pre-  interet over the course of a day I'd be in four   different recording studios for four hours at a  time on four different projects I feel like um in   my role I'm available when the time is right for  the project to happen it's do you know what I'm   saying I can't many people who do my production  job will say okay I'm available from November 2nd   to January 3rd and we're going to make it in that  period I can't work that way because I want it to   be great and I know it doesn't work that way so  everything is this open-ended fluid thing where   you know when you have songs let's sit down and  listen to them and then let's figure out how as   soon as possible that we could record them if  they're ready to be recorded and then how the   different steps work after that it really has  to do with when it's ready to happen because   I again I know I can't impose my schedule on a  project and expect it to be good that fluidity   and improvisation that sounds very wise Vis A the  creative process and outcomes and yet I just I'm   curious like how do you manage your own sleep and  burn out and overwork while being open in this way   one of the things that has changed I used to work  I I mentioned earlier I used to work all night and   I used to work very long hours and in the early  days most of us who were doing what we were doing   Associated the amount of time we spent in the  studio to either how hard we were working or how   good it was going to be and that was just a bad  idea I didn't know that then and now I spend only   the amount of time necessary in the studio to get  the best outcome and if I'm needed I'm there and   if I'm not needed I'm not there and I typically  work on an album project in the afternoon usually   we start at noon or 1 and typically work till  about 6 and again if it's a particularly magic day   and things are really cooking and going great we  may work a couple of hours longer because catching   the moment you know if the fish are biting we  we take advantage but in general those hours   seem like the amount of time that I can really  pay attention with all of myself be completely   focused on what's Happening and be of use and then  usually at the end of that time I'll give a list   of all the things that can be tried and then in  some cases the artists work all night until 3:   in the morning after that and then we'll meet the  next day at noon or 1 and listen to what happened   the night before and talk about okay this really  works this I thought this was going to work this   didn't really work maybe we try like this and we  just keep updating things in the morning you clear   out for yourself for meditation exercise whatever  else you want to do yes wake up slowly typically   go for a walk depending on where I am off in  a beachwalk Long Beach Walk and listen to an   audio book or listen to a podcast depending on the  practice I'm doing I might meditate before it or I   might do I've been doing a taii ruler practice now  which I do usually late afternoon before dinner I   just started doing a coherent breathing practice  that I do as often as I can to add up to about 30   minutes a day just experimenting with it seeing  how it sits with me so it sounds like there is   space in your calendar you're not lurching from  one thing to the next on your to-do list no and   I'm not beholden to what there is to do in other  words if a Project's at a place place where it's   time for me to send notes but I know that the  notes aren't going to be dealt with immediately   I'll do it immediately if that's what suits my  schedule and if I need to wait a week before I   address it considering nothing's going to happen  anyway do you know what I'm saying it's like if   the notes aren't going to be dealt with then I  do it on the schedule that makes sense for life   and I do a better job of it because of it because  I I like to do things when I really feel present   for something important I want to feel like I'm  really like if I'm not feeling good one day I   probably wouldn't want to make a big choice about  something really important on a day where i'm not   feeling my best so I might you know what I'll come  back to this tomorrow I'm going to take care of   myself so what I'm hearing there is a mixture of  fluidity you know a kind of jazz approach to your   schedule and the work and also some ruthlessness  of like know I'm going to protect this am amount   of time for a long leisurely aimless walk and some  breathing and some meditation because I can't do   the stuff everybody wants me to do if I don't do  that so am I restating this with some accuracy   yeah whatever it takes for the work to be good is  what what I'll do and often if I'm not taking care   of myself I don't think I can be of much use right  but I would imagine you get a lot of incoming you   know I would love to have Rick Rubin read my book  and tell me if he thinks it's good I'm sure every   band in the world would love to have you produce  their record or give notes on it there has to be   some discipline on I can't take on this project  right now etc etc yeah usually I find that when   it's the beginning of something like if I'm being  asked to do something it usually works best if I   meet the artist and we meet and in their presence  we listen together and talk about where they're at   if they've already started something or if they  have a vision of what they want to do or if they   don't have a vision what they want to to do how  they assess everything that's happened up till   now and talk about possible ways that it could  go usually it happens in a pretty natural way   you mentioned something earlier that I've been  thinking about W to follow up on so I'll do it   now you talked about getting high as a shortcut  and maybe not the best sustainable strategy for   long-term creativity and yet you know I think  about the way cannabis has been used in creative   process for many years do you think that's not  sustainable I'll say I know some bands who smoke   a lot who have not been able to keep their  relationship together now I've also seen the   opposite there's no right answer for everybody it  seems like usually any substance that's altering   you is a shortcut to something that your body  can do on its own if you tap into the right   energy there's the story of RAM us giving his Guru  a handful of acid you know enough acid for a horse   and the guru said what's this and just took it  all and it had no effect on him because he was   already there he was in this place so I can  remember an artist once telling me you listen   to music like I heard music after I took acid  except except i' never took acid so um I think   we can get there without it that's said whatever  works for everybody I'm I'm not against anyone   trying it I can remember one example of where a  particular guitar player who's very much lived   in his head I'd spent time with him in general  outside of the studio and he liked to drink in   real life and in the studio he was very critical  of himself and very um in his head it didn't feel   like he was playing with his whole body it felt  too intellectual and that was one time that I   suggested maybe you should have a few drinks and  again that's not my normal wouldn't be normal but   in that particular case based on my experience  with him and seeing how he acted when he was   having fun outside of the studio I thought maybe  in this particular case it'll get us where we need   to go that makes sense you talk about This Magic  Moment when things are cooking in the studio and   I must imagine that that's a drug in and of itself  just last night I was online and I was watching a   clip of Timberland and Jay-Z the they came up  with that song Dirt Off Your Shoulder watching   timberin play the beat to Jay-Z and then he goes  right into the studio and AD lives this song it's   unbelievable to watch similarly watching that  documentary get back Peter Jackson's documentary   about the Beatles where you watch Paul you know  sit down on the base waiting for Jon to show up   and he writes what does he write get back I think  get back yes he writes get back and and or you see   like there's a shot where Ringo's talking to some  random person and he's in Focus Ringo is and in   the foreground out of focus is Paul writing Let It  Be and I can think of few more thrilling things to   witness than that act of creation and that is your  life and that must be just awesome absolutely it's   thrilling and definitely addictive and again  we can't control it you can't make it happen   but when you're in the room and it happens it's  stunning breathtaking and why why we keep coming   back for more we only have a few more minutes  left so let me ask just a few more questions can   AI which everybody's talking about now artificial  intelligence can AI which is trained on the Corpus   of human knowledge create in this way I will say  I don't know enough about AI but I'll start by   saying the way we each work is we all take in a  great deal of information into our vessel and then   through our filter we come up with something new  I heard an interesting thing where some very smart   business people who knew a lot about technology  were talking about Ai and they said that there are   currently five competing AIS and eventually with  the same data sets in all five of them over time   as they got better and better all five would get  to the same answer now if you give a great script   to five different movie directors you'll get five  different movies so the AI is doing something   different than what we do what we do is we bring  our point of view to the project the AI doesn't   have a point of view it's just got a lot of data  but it doesn't have a point of view and the thing   that we're looking for from our artists it's not  a lot of data we're looking for the point of view   well said is there something that you wish I had  asked but that I failed to ask I can't think of   anything can you just remind everybody of the  name of your book and any other things you've   made that you think would be of interest to the  audience and the book is called the creative act   a way of being and if you go online you can  find a whole bunch of music I worked on also   there was a great documentary called shangrala on  Showtime about you doing your work yes and I made   a sort of a documentary called McCartney 321 with  Paul McCartney looking at Beetle songs it blew my   mind it blew my mind being in the room and hearing  the stories it's unbelievable I'm so happy it's on   film because I would think it was a dream had it  not been captured it is awesome it's available on   Hulu I recommend it I'm a longtime fan it's a huge  pleasure to meet you all be it virtually so thank   you for making time pleasure meeting you I look  forward to reading your next book thanks again   to Rick Rubin awesome to talk to that guy what a  legend thank you as well to you for listening as   always I'm going to ask you go give us a rating  and review that really helps us so thank you for   that and thanks most of all to everybody who works  so hard on this show 10% happier is produced by   Lauren Smith Gabrielle Zuckerman Justine Davey and  Tara Anderson DJ Kashmir is our senior producer   Marissa Schneiderman is our senior editor and  Kimmy regler is our executive producer scoring and   mixing by Peter Bonaventure of ultraviolet audio  and we get our theme music from Nick thorburn of   the band Islands before we go just one last uh  little note here we got a lot of great feedback   a few weeks ago when I asked the audience if  you uh would be up for me SL us adding a third   episode we got a resoundingly positive response to  that so we're going to do another experiment with   a third episode this week coming up on Friday a  full-on episode with a fascinating guy who's been   on this show before a former congressman from Ohio  former and perhaps who knows future presidential   candidate Tim Ryan who has talked a lot about  uh being a very public meditator and we're   going to talk to him about how all those years  of meditation helped him handle a really tough   and somewhat bitter defeat in a recent uh Senate  campaign so Tim Ryan 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Channel: Ten Percent Happier

Views: 87,112

Keywords: rick rubin, rick rubin interview, rick rubin podcast, rick rubin meditation, rick ruben, ten percent happier, rick rubin creativity, 10 percent happier, creative process video, music producer vlog, music producer interview, personal development, music production for beginners, creative process music production, creative process writing, meditation interview, self development motivation, dan harris, rick rubin the creative act, rick rubin on creativity, meditation rick rubin

Id: 8AC1uXMo870

Length: 66min 2sec (3962 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 17 2023