(light music) - [Carol] What I saw is
I saw the fire starting. And I saw like a globe, like the earth, and the fire starting in
one spot and it going. It just went one way,
it didn't go all ways. It went up and around the
whole earth and it never stops until the whole earth was
engulfed in the flame. So I already knew, like it
was just part of what I knew that this thing was never gonna stop until it covered the whole earth. And it was God and we couldn't
stop it even if we tried to. - I said, when do we go out and do it? Oh he says, you don't have to do it. You just have to believe it was done once. Now that's pathetic. (audience chuckling) Isn't it? I found out over the next year or two that we cried about it, we sang about it, we preached about it, we prayed over it, we gave to it, but we never did it. We never got to go do the
things that Jesus did. And I grew disillusioned in the process. Now you know, to tell
you the truth I joined up to do the stuff, did you? You see, it's doing the stuff
that's gonna change the world. It's not knowing it was done once. It's not knowing that it's important. It's doing it that's
going to change the world. Somewhere, someplace, somebody's got to start believing this book. (applauding) (uplifting music) - That's their pool? - Yes, so it gets to it later. (chattering) (light music) - I'm here with some of
those folks who were around at the very, very beginning
of the Vineyard movement and so we have Carol Wimber,
now married to Ken Wong for the last 16 years. Previously John Wimber of
course was her husband. And then we have Bob and
Penny Fulton around right at the very, very beginning. And each of these guys has
displayed phenomenal roles really over the last some
where around 40 years as the Vineyard went from a small group to now being thousands of
churches really across the world. So tell us your journey. How did you come to find faith? - John and I were like
on the verge of a divorce and I was, Stephanie was not born yet but we had three little
kids and that's what it was. And I finally prayed. Now, Lord if you're still there, something's gone real wrong here. And then I developed a
hunger for God from that. - We'd been married seven years and we'd never talked about God. And she told me all kinds
of things about God. She told me about Mary, and
she told me about the catechism and she told me about, she
told me God had a book out. (congregation laughing) And I said, no kidding. I said, what's it called? She said, it's called the Bible. And I said, God wrote that book? (laughing) And she said yes, that's God's book. He wrote that book. I said, well when did he do that? She said, oh a long time ago. (laughing) I said, no kidding. I said, have you ever read it? And she said, yeah I read it. I said, all of it? And she said, well I read lots of it. I said, no kidding, I said well where do you get a book like that? She says, oh you can
buy 'em in the stores. I said, well I never
saw any in the stores. Well she said, you been
going in the wrong stores. (laughing) You can get one. And so that day I got back to Las Vegas that afternoon and I put my family and we rented a condominium,
I put my family in there and I decided to go down and buy a Bible. Now the problem was the
only places I shopped was the casino stores
and things like that. And it's not easy to
buy a Bible in Las Vegas in the casino stores. And so I went to several of 'em and finally this one lady says, you're not gonna find a Bible here. And I said, you know I'm
beginning to believe that. I said, where would you
go if you wanted a Bible? She said, go across the street and she said, there's a book rack and on the book rack there's a Bible. Now my wife had been very careful to describe to me what Bibles look like. She says, they're black
and it says Holy Bible on the side of 'em, or on the back of 'em. And I said, is it black? I didn't want anybody to put
anything over me, you know. I said, is it black? She said, well I don't think so. I said, well then it can't be a Bible. And she said, I think it's
a Bible, go on over there. So I went over to the drug store and sure enough on the, I asked the clerk, she went over and she got this green book. It was a paper back and she took it down and it said, New Testament. New English New Testament. And I said, that's not a Bible. And she said, yeah it's a Bible. It's half a Bible. And I said, it's half a Bible? (congregation laughing) I said, what'd ya mean it's half a, this thing was getting
complicated, you know. I said, what'd ya mean it's half a Bible? And she said, it's half a Bible! I said, you sell 'em for half price? (laughing) And she's like, no. - And then Dick and Lynn Kine our friends who lived up here in Yorba Linda, they had started a group in their home. So she asked us to come and it
was just in the nick of time. And we did, we came up to Yorba Linda. The whole Bible study which met on Monday changed their day to meet on Tuesday just for John's sake because he said, I know nothing of the Bible. I've never opened a Bible,
I don't have a Bible, I don't wanna be the only one there that doesn't know anything. You know, I'm not going
with a bunch of people so a whole bunch of
people changed their night to a different night so
that we could come alone on Monday and he could be ignorant and find out what he needs to know. - Yeah, so in that journey
John came to faith in that. - Yes, yes he did, he did. We came back week after week and it turned out to be,
it's his only night off. He worked all the rest
of the nights of the week and he was a musician. And so that was his only night off and that's what we did
for the next three months. And then finally I think I said, you know I believe it, I
believe everything you said. How do you sign up? - And so one night we're
all talking on this thing and all of a sudden my wife says, I think it's time to do
something about this. And the guy closed his Bible. He went real clear and I thought, oh no. And he said, so do I. And my wife and he are talking and I'm watching him and
the next thing I know she's kneeling on the floor
and talking to the plaster. - Being a catholic I got down on my knees and prayed the act of contrition. Oh my God I am heartily sorry
for having offended thee and I detest, you know,
which is a good prayer but I knew nothing from
just praying spontaneously. - And she's saying, oh God I'm
heartily sorry for my sins. I thought, what'd she do? (laughing) Because she was a good guy, know. I mean I knew her, I
had known her real well. I thought she was a
pretty good guy, you know. Not as good as I was, but a good guy. And so she's talking and I'm thinking this is really strange. She's doing this thing
that they've all done. And I'm sitting, one,
two, three, wait a minute. I'd been on a few stages in my life and I knew it was about
time for me to do my turn. When she finished it was my turn. And I was, I sat there
and I thought, oh no. (scoffing) They're not gonna get,
nah I'm not gonna do this. And I remember I was sitting there and I was in a captain's chair and I ahold of both handles, you know. They're not gonna drag
me outta this chair. And I'm sitting there and
the next thing I know, I'm on my knees. Now I don't know, to save my life, I don't know whether I got
outta the chair or was shoved. (laughing) I know theologically
that's very important, but I've never been able to figure it out. (laughing) All I know was the next
thing I was on my knees and I was trying to pray
this prayer of repentance they kept talking about. But I couldn't pray. All I could do is go. (whining) For hours, it seemed like hours. It was at least a half hour. My nose is running, it's
all over my chest, you know. My eyes were swelling shut. I'm sobbing, my body is racked with pain and I'm about 20 minutes
into it I'm realizing that I'm making an utter fool of myself! - And then he also, John,
John said he remembered a man with one of those,
what do they call 'em? - Sandwich board. - Sandwich board. - And here comes this guy walking along and he's got one of
these signs, like an eat at Joe's type of sign,
you know front and back. And on the front it said,
I'm a fool for Christ and on the back it said,
who's fool are you? When I saw it at the time I thought, oh weird religious weirdo
you know, he went by. But here I am all these
years later I'm kneeling on my friend's living room floor. I'm sobbing, I'm suddenly realizing that I'm making a complete fool of myself and I remembered that thing. And I thought, that's it, that's it. I'm gonna be his fool, that's it. And I resolved in my heart at that moment that from that point out I was
going to do the foolish thing in the eyes of the world. - So then John prayed. He just kind of fell to
his knees and said, I'm in. I don't know what it means but I'm in. He had asked Gunner, he
said I know of a man, he's a musician and he
doesn't know thing but music. If he were to signup
for this thing with God would he have to give up his career? And Gunner said, no he wouldn't have to give up his career but
he'd have to be willing to. So, he said that's what I thought. - So John counted the cost
before making the decision? - John counted the cost before. - So as John came to faith
he began to read the Bible and the gospels particularly. Tell us about that. - Yes, so he bought Bibles
as soon as we started going to the Bible study. But John, like we bought
'em to take to Bible study, and we would go through the scriptures. But John when he actually started reading the Bible, he had never
read a Bible before. - Mm-hm. - So when he read the
scriptures he didn't read 'em like I read 'em. You know, I'd read the catholic thing and I think of all the catholic plays and the movies, and saints and all that. He didn't have any of that stuff in there. He read it as if for the first time. Like it was written just
to him, to tell him. And so he believed it that way too. So he didn't have any
of those complications when it came to like, is that for today? I mean he would think, well why not? I mean was there an
ending on this command? Are we, you know? So he thought, okay, this
is a job description. We heal the sick, we cast out demons, we raise the dead, we preach
the gospel to the poor, we cloth the naked, we feed the hungry. All right, when shall we do this? When, okay, and then he actually said, when do we get to do the stuff? And whoever the pastor
was, Barney or something, like what stuff? You know, the stuff here,
right here in the scriptures. When do we get to do it? - So I went up to this guy and I pulled on his sleeve
and he had something on his chest with his name on it so I figured he must know something. I said, when do they do it? And he said, do what? I said, the stuff. He said, what stuff? I said, the stuff in the Bible. He said, what do you mean? I said you have to multiply the fishes and the loaves and feed the hungry and all that stuff, when do they do that? He said, oh we don't do that. We believe in it, we pray
about it, but we don't do it. And I was terribly disappointed. I said, wait a minute,
you don't understand. I gave up drugs for this. I gave up my career for this. You mean I don't get to do it? When I worked for the devil
I got to do the devil stuff. If I'm working for Jesus
I wanna do what Jesus did. - And then they explained
to him, you know, well that used to be,
that's what they used to be but then when the Apostles,
the time of the Apostles were over and the first
followers and so on. We don't need to do that anymore because now we have, and
he was, we have what? People are still sick. People still are lame. People are still hungry,
when do we get to do it? So he pressed in on
that, thought about it, and he couldn't find
anything in the scriptures that made it sound like it all stopped. And then he started
searching, search history and it was always going on and
by then he'd been introduced to Peter Wagner and Fuller
and they started tracing down the church history like it never stopped. People stopped doing it but
the Holy Spirit never stopped. So he went into it and
his attitude was, okay, this was for everybody
was supposed to do this. This wasn't just for
the holy guy up front. As I read the gifts are scattered. He scatters the grace wherever he wants. And this is what we do
as the people of God and we are the people of God. There's no place higher. There isn't first person south of God. You know we're all as high as each other. And that was very much a Quaker value. Everybody gets to play
and there isn't anybody more important in the
body than anyone else. You need the whole body. And so it didn't make sense to him that there should be a guy up front that got to do all the
stuff and nobody else did. And I mean that sounds so
logical to all of us now, but it wasn't back in those days. Like people used to come up
to him when he was at Fuller teaching in the School of World Missions. Like, when did you get this call? Was it a visitation by an angel? Because all their famous evangelists and healers they'd all
had some big encounter and John said, no I've never. Well where, how did it happen? And John said, I read this book. And he wasn't trying to be funny. He said, I read this book. We all get to do the stuff. We're all supposed to do the stuff. And you know my gift is to
equip the brethren like it says. That's what I do, I equip the brethren. Make sure everybody's doing the stuff. The body of Christ,
we're the body of Christ. So that was his genius,
it was just so simple. - Tell us about the
work of the Holy Spirit as your journey with Christ
really began to unfold. - At the point where John
had Bible studies all over the place and a home Bible
study which Gunner taught. So this is kind of early,
Gunner was still teaching it and Gunner was leaving because his son had a terrible accident. So he wasn't so he was
gonna move up to Oregon. So John was walking along the irrigation. We used to live by the groves and they had these irrigation streams. We called 'em ditches. John was walking along
the irrigation ditch and he was praying about the Bible study. Lord, Gunner's leaving. What's gonna happen? I don't know that I can teach it and what am I gonna do? We're so dependent on Gunner and all these young Christians,
these baby Christians we've got all over the place. And then he said, all of a
sudden I couldn't understand what I was saying. So he's like, I kept talking but I still couldn't understand it. And then he thought, what? Is this tongues? And he came home and he
said, listen to this, Carol. (chuckling) And I was kind of horrified because there had just been a split
in our particular church and I said, let's get Sheldon
over here, Sheldon Newkirk. And see what he thinks. So Sheldon came over. - He was the Pastor? - He was the pastor, the old pastor. I mean literally old. A five or sixth generation Quaker. Let's see what he thinks. And he came over and so we
told him what had happened and he cried. He literally cried. And so he thought it was like, oh no, we're just getting over the church split and there wasn't, I mean
things were very definite back in those days. So I think John just decided, well, I'm just gonna put that
experience I had on the shelf and think about it later. And so he just kind of put it away. I don't think he went through a whole bunch of angst, or anything. He wasn't that kind of a person. So we continued on in the French church and John being on staff
and in the meantime Chris, Sean our youngest boy. Must have been about four, four years old and he got away. You know, he was a big
traveler, always trying to, we lived out in the country. So he was always trying to
go off into strange places and getting away from us. And I would, we had a collie
that would always find him. So we sent Jaime to find
him and then we heard him and he was crying. And we ran up the hill and
apparently he had gotten up the hill where they had
a bunch of bee hives and pushed over one of the bee hives and he was coming down
with, just covered, covered like thousands of bees all over him and they were biting him. And we were, we ran for him and we were getting the bees
off, getting stung ourselves. Taking off his clothes,
running and I said John, we've gotta get him over
to the hospital right away because I knew that you
could die from bee stings. Especially a little baby like that. And anyhow as we took him in the bed and picking out the bee
stings and then I said, can you still pray in tongues? And he said, I don't
know, I haven't tried. I said, well try now. So he did, he started praying in tongues. It sounded Chinese to me. But anyhow, Sean just laying there, all the red marks just started fading. As if they hadn't been. So we just watched him, and
watched him, and watched him and after about a half an hour
he just kinda fell asleep. And there were no more marks, you know. I was thinking, should we take him anyhow? But no one's gonna believe
he's been bitten 120 times. And he just fell asleep
and slept about an hour and we watched him the whole time. And then he woke up like from a normal nap and we went to Sunday
night church that night. - So the Holy Spirit was
beginning to stir stuff in you and you started a group. I guess Penny and Bob
at the Wickwire's house. Tell us about that. - Well we had gotten pretty caustic as far as church was concerned. Things didn't feel like
they had any life in them and we had driven over
to our friend's house and just as we were
leaving Richard Wickwire had asked Bob and I if we would come and kind of facilitate
a group at his house. He didn't know what we would do but let's all get together
and see what's wrong with us. And I'm shaking my head
no, because I'm so tired of false hope and I don't
wanna expect anything anymore. And Bob's saying yes at the same time. And he says it dominantly,
yes that's what we'll do. So the group started
with about eight people and you wanna go from there, sweetie? - Go ahead. - It started about eight people. You know we were trying to figure out what we were gonna do now
that we were together. We were the elders of
the church previously so we didn't wanna do Bible
studies to each other. But we had seen what happens
with certain attitudes. So Bob put the boundaries and he said, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna pray for each other. I'll break you up into
groups of two or threes. Everyone's welcome, nobody's left out. That's because we wanted to
keep out the charismatics. So everyone was welcome. Number two, we never criticize the church. Number three, when we ask for prayer we only ask for prayer for ourselves. This is not a prayer meeting. This is just us praying together. And they'll be no sharing
about anything else except how I'm doing with Jesus. So there wasn't a lot to say. And if we have anything, any suggestions it comes from the I point of view, not we need to read the Bible more, I need to read the Bible more. And he said, so let's start with that and understand that
before we start to pray. And so he said, I'll
break you up in groups and we'll go from there. Well just as he was about
to Carl came out from the back bedroom. He'd been back there listening on and off. And he'd had a guitar and
he had learned some choruses from Calvary Chapel. - [John] Is this Carl Tuttle? - Carl Tuttle. - [John] Who was? - He was the sister of,
yeah, of my best friend Candy who's home we were in. And so Carl came out and he
said, well let me teach you some choruses before you start to pray. And Bob said, sure. So he starts teaching us "Cause
me to Come to River O Lord." But he has us sing it over and
over again so we can learn it and we're so embarrassed by the intimacy and the next song was Father, I adore you, lay my life before you, how I love you. And we're singing it over and over again it's really catching us. It catches me today. And I'm afraid to close my eyes but I want to because I'm embarrassed. Now this is my own experience. Everyone's having their own experience but I finally have to close my eyes because these words are so embarrassing and so intimate and I
know if I close my eyes I'm gonna see the Lord and
he's gonna be mad at me. You know in the singing, we had sang a lot about Jesus, we loved singing, but we'd, I don't think
we'd ever sang songs right to him like that. So that was undoing. Plus, we couldn't talk
about anything except our own experience with the Lord so it made us realize that we were empty. I mean God had somehow set up boundaries and setup a revival and then
John joined us eventually and then the church, you know
they weren't happy about us. - [John] So you began then 1977. You were in the Masonic
Lodge and the first person who got healed, I understand, she had an issue with her spine? - Oh, that was Larry. John had said, look at you guys. When we do this church we're gonna follow after what the Holy Spirit's doing. We're not gonna do what
we want and then ask him to bless us. This is different this time. So Bob you do just what you do. You know, make announcements, do the little groups of prayer afterwards, and I'll teach and
we'll see what God does. So at the end of our first meeting Bob had, it was Sunday night and Bob had put us all in little groups to pray for each other and in the group that we were in, Larry
said, I just lost my job. I was born with something
wrong with my back and they saw it and they
said, you can't work here. And I really needed that job, Larry Tells. And so he said, so would you pray for, I would like prayer for that. And so we shared and we
had our arms around each other's waists, we didn't know the way you're supposed to do it. And we just prayed that
Larry would find another job. And he said when we prayed
that way electricity went through him and he called us later on and said, I got healed tonight. And so I called up John and I said, John, Larry Tells got healed. And he said, we're in trouble now, Penn. (chuckling) - [Announcer] In only four
short years Calvary Chapel had expanded into a movement
with satellite locations all over the southwestern United States. Chuck Smith had replaced the
aggressive Pentecostal dynamic with a focus on Bible teaching. And rather quickly, Lonnie realized he wasn't on easy tread and started to look for other outlets to express his more aggressive Pentecostalism. He found a kindred spirit in John Wimber, the pastor of a Calvary
Chapel satellite location in Yorba Linda, California. - [Lonnie] John and I met three years ago at the Pastor's Conference
and the Lord told us that he was gonna join us together and it's taken three years to do it because I'm a chicken. I think the Lord's gonna meet
us tonight in a special way. So, I want you to be in expectancy for a move of the spirit of God. - So we're talking a little
bit about Lonnie Frisbee. On Mother's Day 1980 John
felt a little prompting to invite a young man to
speak, tell us about that. - Right, and we were a little concerned just because of the stories and everything and we love Lonnie, you know, and he kind of loved us
but we never had turned the thing over to him before. - [John] This is Lonnie Frisbee? - Lonnie Frisbee. - So John invited him to speak? - Yes, John invited him to speak. - So I went up to him and I said, Lonnie. (congregation laughing) Would you like to preach
tonight at my church and he says, oh yeah I've
been waiting for the chance! I thought, oh no. (laughing) I'm telling you I died
1,000 deaths all afternoon. All afternoon I agonized. I said, oh God you got me into it again. You got me into a mess. He's gonna mess my church up. And the Lord said, when
did it become your church? (congregation laughing) I said, oh that's right,
that's right, okay. (laughing) So I went to church that night and I, (chuckling) we
worshiped extra long. (congregation laughing) I found a lot of announcements
that needed to be made. But I, and as long as I
stretched it, it was still time. So he's sitting there all bright and alert like a kid
at his birthday party. And I'm thinking, oh, he
looks harmless enough. All right come on up. So he comes up and he starts speaking and I sit down over to the side. And I'm listening to him
and it's great, you know. I'm thinking, what was I worried about! He was funny, he's giving his testimony and his pathos in it, and there's time to weep a little bit, and you
know, salute a couple times and he's telling us some great verses and you're laughing and just having a wonderful time up there. What was I worried about? This is great, you know,
God you're so good. And then he does the weirdest
thing I've ever even heard of. (congregation laughing) Everything's going good you
know, all of sudden he stops and says, well that's it. He said, the church has been
offending the Holy Spirit a long time but he's getting over it and we're gonna invite him
to come and minister now. Come Holy Spirit, and wham-o! (congregation laughing) The spirit of God comes. And people start fighting. Well first he says, everybody 25 years and under come forward. Well in our church that's everybody! So, you know they're all coming up there. - Oh heaven broke loose. I mean, we didn't hear the sound of a roaring, mighty wind
but we might as well have the way the Holy Spirit just went over and you'd hear people, whole groups and fall over, and screaming and yelling and one guy grabbed the
microphone accidentally going down and he's just speaking in
tongues like a turkey, you know. And it's just going everywhere. You know, on the loud speaker. And there were people that
were so freaked out, you know. They were standing up and
closing their Bibles and leaving. Like, we'll never come back. (chuckling) - He had asked everyone 25
and younger to come forward. - [Carole] Of course everybody was 20, everyone was under 25. - Yeah, the mean age of
the church was 17, so. So everyone went forward and
then he said come, Holy Spirit and oh my goodness. John said it sounded
like, he said it felt like we said here, kitty, kitty and
the lion of Judah showed up. - And you know, one of the,
we didn't have catchers. So a Pentecostal service has catchers. - But they would have been useless anyhow. - When you're standing
there looking at this, these kids started quivering and falling. I mean the whole group, probably 300. But they were all over each other. - [Carol] They were young
and they couldn't stop. - [Bob] Trees in the forest. And I mean, it was bedlam, it really was. - [Carol] And shaking, shaking, shaking. You know, once they hit
the floor that didn't stop. - [Penny] And it was loud,
because it was a gymnasium. - [Bob] Because of the
microphone being pulled down. - [Carol] You know, and tongues were going throughout the building. - [Bob] And people were
crying, not just tongues. - [Carol] Yeah. - [Bob] Wailing and crying. - Yeah, and people, I
mean it was just nuts. - Nuts. - So we went home. (chuckling) John did not go to sleep. He stayed up all night
thinking, what I have done? Like, trying to figure
out what have I done. And then Tom Stipes for no
reason at all calls him up from Denver and says, John I don't know what's going on there. I think it was about 5:00 in the morning. He said, but God told
me to tell ya it's him, don't worry about it. So that did it. And Tom Stipes didn't know
what was going on, either. But that's what it was. - We needed that. - [Carol] Yeah, John. - We really needed that. - Okay, if it's you Lord,
let's go all the way. And then another thing, like Bob, Bob would be the one after church that would have to take
these young people home. They'd still be out. We couldn't wake 'em up. So he'd stack 'em up in his car and let 'em off at their house, lean 'em up against the door. - See ya. You think that's God. - You know, then we'd be
asked to do a wedding. Eddie Peoric's gonna do a wedding and down at their church and he's there, it's a family home and all these visitors and aunts and uncles and
then people from the church. The groom and the bride
are standing up there and he starts praying for the groom and the groom goes out, bam. And they can't get him
up, can't wake him up. So they finally get a lawn chair and put it there. And then the guy's stiff,
out like that through the whole wedding ceremony. - But he woke up to say his vows. (chuckling) - So in 1981 there was the
beginning of relationship with some English people. People like David Watson, David Pytches. Tell about how that began. - Well Eddie Gibbs who was
in David Pytches church. David Pytches was a
bishop of Chile but he had a church in Chorleywood, St. Andrews. And David Watson, I don't
know if it was the same year. Maybe you do, John. - It was, 1981. - And anyhow, the end of it was John got an invitation to bring a team out to St. Andrews, Chorleywood. - On his way then to
David Watson's church, St. Michael's of York. - Yes, and then we were
going to go up to, where? - St. Michael's in York. - Yeah, St. Michael's, at le Belfrey. And anyhow, so that was the first team that we brought over
and I think almost all of 'em were teenagers, right Bob? - Right, that's right. - He had called us and asked
us to put 20 kids together for a team to UK and on our
way to go to St. Michael's Chorleywood had called and
asked us to come by there first. And so when we came
there with all those kids they were a little up in arms. They didn't expect that and they said, but John we just invited you. And John said, you asked for my ministry. This is my ministry. Which I loved that line
because that's so who we are, a people movement. - So tell us about that
meeting in 1981 at Chorleywood at St. Andrew's. - At St. Andrew's we were
there with our trained healer. (chuckling) I love it, who called
him our trained healers, it was so funny. The kids, you know, all the kids. And John had spoken to all of 'em, that all right we're gonna go out and you're gonna stay
with the parishioners in their home and remember,
leave a blessing and so on. And I think John was gonna try to like, don't do anything too wild. Then he started to say things like that and then he said, no
forget everything I said. Just do whatever God tells you to do. And I think John was a little nervous about what would happen, and they did. Remember they had never
been in church buildings. Most of 'em hadn't been
in any churches ever and if you'd asked a lot of the kids like, what does a church look like, they would have pointed to a warehouse. Once one of my my grand kids
I said, that's a church. They said, oh grandma that's
not a church, that's a castle. (chuckling) Because they knew what
a church looked like. It looked like a warehouse. (chuckling) So there was no restraints. These kids have never been
in an actual church building, unless they come from
some church background and there was no restraints,
do what God tells ya to do and they did and some
wonderful things happened. - John asked Lonnie to start ministering and say words of knowledge and have people come up for healing. Well people were stuck
three and four deep. - Yeah, long lines. - So, then they had an organ and a piano just off to the side. Well there were so many
people when John said for the kids to come up and pray over the people, they couldn't get through. So they were climbing over
the organ and the piano. - And all the pews. - And all the pews to get up there so that they could pray for the people. - And the holy altar rail. - Oh yes, and then because
the kids were shorter and the people were further back, they started standing
on the communion railing so they could reach back. So there's a bunch of Anglicans going, ah! These holy implements, these kids are doing this whole thing. Meanwhile, people are being healed. A gal in a wheelchair. - But in the morning some woman in line had gotten up to the rail
and Bob was praying for her and she asked for prayer for her cataract. So he laid hands on her head. - In her left eye. - You wanna tell the
story, since it's yours? - Well it was a cataract in her left eye. - In her left eye, and
after he prays for her he sees a picture and she starts crying and tells her daughter who's with her, and covers up her left
eye to read the flyer. - [Bob] The banners. - Or the banners. And Bob said, you're
covering up the wrong eye. And she said, no you don't understand. I was blind in this eye. And that's why I was so
worried that I was having a cataract in my other eye. So she'd gotten healed of blindness. - And we were such people of faith that we left Chorleywood
and we got up to York, David Watson's church. I called Pytches just to find out, did it really happen? He said, yes, we went to the optometrist and they just put a glass piece
in and she could see fine. - Yeah, it was amazing. I saw you out there leaning
against the building and I said, what's wrong ya Bob? - I was stunned. - You said, I'm stunned, I'm stunned. - Yeah, he really didn't
know how to take it in. - He said, a woman, a blind lady just saw. (chuckling) - And then we were up at York. Are you ready for York, ready for York? Okay, we left Chorleywood
and went up to York on a train, got on a
bus, and that afternoon, when we got there they
have a guy, a gentleman who's a warden in the Anglican church. And so they had a meeting with John and they said, John you have
to understand something. We'd heard from the people in Chorleywood. They're not gonna do that here. Those kids don't get to minister. It's just gonna be you. And John said, okay, you
know they all worked hard to get here, they paid their airfare, they paid for their hotel,
they're paying for their food. We'll go out sight seeing. - He said, well you can't do that. We have people coming to the conference. John said, again, you don't understand. That's my ministry, without them I don't have anything to say. So they grumbled and whatever. Anyway, they finally, they let it happen. - Yeah. - So John teaches and
then at the end of it he says, you adults don't get it. I want some kids between 10 and 14 years of age to come up here. There was probably what, 10 or 12 of them. And then he instructed the kids, we're gonna have you pray for the sick. And so some of you will see body parts. Some of you will get, you
know what a body's like. Just tell the body to do what
you think it's supposed to do. Then Lonnie prayed over them and several of them
went out in the spirit. And a couple of them speaking in tongues and then after a few
minutes John's just waiting and waiting and he said,
okay, get those kids up. Anybody that has these conditions, and he named some, come up there. So this girl came out and she had the, like those crutches that
go up to your elbow. And she had these calipers on her leg. She had polio, previously. We didn't know, so she comes
out with several others. So a couple of those
kids laid hands on her and started praying for her and bam! She hits the floor. Well you know, it's all hardwood. - [Carol] Yeah, echoes like crazy. - She hits the floor and
she starts screaming. Well her surgeon was in the audience. So her surgeon comes running out. And her surgeon realizes that her legs are starting to straighten out and the calipers are hurting her. So she's unscrewing the calipers while these kids are praying over her. And there are several
other things like that starting to take place. - John considered David
Pytches one of the, I think maybe, the
bravest man he ever knew. Because David took heat
for hanging out with us, for encouraging us, for what was going on and he wasn't afraid. I mean, he was called in many times to whatever they do in the Anglican church and he was a bishop so
that gave him some weight on his side, but he protected us so that we could continue
to do what God wanted to do. And there was a time when John said he wouldn't be able to come again and David said, well what
do you want me to do? And John said, give it away,
give it away, give it away. Because that's what it's all about. It had been something poured on us and now, and then in
UK, and it didn't belong to us or our denomination. It belonged to the church of Jesus Christ, the body of Christ. So the whole thing from the very beginning was give it away, give
it away, give it away to people that don't even see
things the way you see things. The power, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the out pouring it belongs to the church. They'll sort it out. And anyhow, he loved David
and we all considered David our man in London. Of course it wasn't London. But our man in UK. And any new church that started or anything we wanted happening we knew that David would be on it already. And that's what he did. They somehow got through all the red tape and were able to plant churches. Which is unheard of, I
guess in church history in the Anglican church. So, we didn't think in
terms of denominations but boy we knew we were
all on the same team. Made up of the same spirit. - So David began to give it
away to other church leaders. He was training them and then
invited their people to come. And that's when New Wine began in 1989 with some seed money that
John had actually invested to help get that first festival going. - Yeah, and it was a wonderful thing. Your father in law and John
thought a whole lot alike. And think they're both
just practical people. - Right, yeah. So that grew and grew,
it's touched the lives of tens, or perhaps even hundreds of thousands of people now. And then out of that sprang Mike Pilavachi with Soul Survivor. Which again has touched the lives probably of hundreds of thousands of people. In the UK and indeed
elsewhere around the world. - Yeah, it's beautiful what God does if you let him alone to do it. And I think that was a beginning thing. John said to me, Carol I
wonder what would happen if we just let God do
it without stopping it. I wonder what he would do. So really that's what the
whole thing turned out to be. This huge quest just to see
what God would do if we let him. - And then you continued
to pour yourself into the United Kingdom because you came back. So that was 1981. You went to HTB on a visit in '82, you came back to St.
Andrew's in '82 and others. - Well by then we were all related. That's how we thought about you all. Brothers and sisters. - And Alpha came out of that second trip. And Nicky Gumbel. - I remember going to
Holy Trinity, Brompton. John said a similar thing. He said, you guys try to hold it down a bit if you can because this
is a very prestigious church and they're not used to this. Let's help them enter in slowly. But you know, God is God and
I mean he wasn't stopping us but he was just aware of where were. - And he was always sorry afterwards. - So one of the first
people, after John taught and then he asked the Holy Spirit to come I'm sitting on the
aisle and across from me this guy starts crying. And then so, well the
Holy Spirit's on the guy. So I went over and laid hands on him. And all of a sudden he starts wailing. And then making a real ruckus. And I see John looking
like, ugh, I told you Bob. Anyway, but then it was like the Holy, he said you know what,
evangelism is happening. It was Nicky Gumbel. So John pointed to it and he was still a barrister, he didn't
have any, evangelism wasn't even on his grid. But there was, again that
thing I said previously, it's all about evangelism. So John recognized that and
sure enough Alpha was birthed. - Carol what do you see
for the body of Christ, for the Vineyard, what God
is doing and about to do? Just talk to us about that. - What I see is, it's not
just for the Vineyard, it's for all of us. And God showed me, it
was about five years ago and I was in church and
I was just worshiping and I wasn't thinking about anything. And except there was a
presence of the Holy Spirit in the room and I
thought, you know where's that spark that makes it explode? You know, like when Lonnie
was around, Blaine was around and John was the torch. And I thought of 'em as torches. Where are the torches? And I'm just kind of
thinking out loud to the Lord and then he turns it
around on me and he said, where are the torches, Carol? And I'm thinking, what me? I don't know Lord, I
don't know where they are. Well I know some of 'em blew it and they're not in the ministry anymore and I know some of the
others, but you know, you know what all happened. And he said Carol, you've looked
at something the wrong way and I need them in their places. I need all, the whole body of Christ in their places for what's
coming and it is coming. I mean that's just how I heard it. And it is coming. And I had that sense of urgency. He said, I need everybody in their places. And he said, you thought. He said I have, this is what he said. He said, I had them covered. I had 'em covered like here, you know. We didn't have to do what we did. I had them covered. He said, the trouble is,
Carol, you've been looking at the Christian walk
as a time that you would be getting, we the people, getting closer and holier and more acceptable to God and as time goes on we're more perfect. And he says, that was never the story. The story was my mercy, my redemption. It was never the people's redemption. The story was me, my grace. The whole story was my grace. My grace and love and provision. He said, I had 'em covered. And so I thought, well
what now, Lord what now? He said, I want everybody in their place for what's coming. So I'm like, okay Lord. So I went home, I was in shock. Because I mean, my whole
theology has just changed. And I started praying. You know I got in the living room and started praying, and
praying, and praying. And for everyone of these people that went through my mind. It was like a Rolodex. I could see face after face of people that, guys
and women that weren't in the ministry anymore because they had disqualified themselves, you know. And either we got 'em out or they took themselves out, outta shame. And he made me understand,
I had 'em covered. And so I prayed, prayed, prayed and then they just started showing up. I didn't call anybody. They started showing up at my house and over about a two
month, three month period and I told 'em, I mean I was
so grateful they were there. I pulled them in the house going sit down, I've gotta tell you something. You need to get back,
get back in your place because he needs everybody in their place. And he showed me a picture. You've been thinking it's like tiles. Well he's gone, and another tile. He said, it isn't like tiles. It's like a piece of the puzzle. Nobody fits but them, I have to have them in
their place in the body for this thing to work right. And I mean that changed everything for me. And I talked to a lot of
them and they've been back in the ministry and going great. And I mean I had some apologizing to do. Outta my ignorance. I mean I did think the
story about our growing holiness and so on, it never was. It was always about his grace and mercy. And he'll take care of the rest. He knows how to deliver us. So, anyhow that's for the whole world. That wasn't just for
our church or our group. That's for the whole entire church. He needs us in our place for what's coming and I'm not sure exactly what's coming but I know it's coming
and I know it's soon and I know it's huge and it's
gonna be the whole thing. It's like nothing we've ever seen before. And that's kind of scary and
wonderful to think about. - And this plays out across
the whole body of Christ? - And not just torches, but
the whole thing you need to get what it is God's called you to do and do it with all your heart. Because it's so very, very important. Because no one else has been designed to do it like you will do it
and you're the one he calls and no one else will ever be able to do what he's called you to do because we really are unique,
each one of us unique. Designed for our place and that goes for the church in the UK, especially for the church in the UK because you're right after us. And New Zealand and all the countries, the church everywhere. I mean it's coming and
it's gonna be so big and so huge and wonderful
but terrible too. And we need to be in our
place so we can handle the influx because
masses of people, masses of people are gonna be brought in. We think people have
disqualified themselves and can't be in the ministry
or can't do what God's, but that's not true. He's bigger than that
and he had us covered. So just do it. Everybody knows in their spirit. Everybody knows in their spirit
what you're called to do. So do it, you won't be sorry. - Well thank you all. You've worked really
hard and really shared your hearts with us. It's been so valuable. We've got some wonderful gold there and you're a great blessing to us. And this will be a blessing
to many, many others into the future, thank you all. - Thank you, John. - Thank you, thank you guys. (light music)
