Lecture on the Early Church & Politics: Tim Mackie (The Bible Project)

[Applause] Hey hi everybody it's funny how Dave remembers that conversation when he asked me to come talk because he did use the word politics and what I actually said was no no no I'm not going to talk about that so for lots of different reasons one that gives me hives just thinking about it but but - I'm a Bible nerd I'm a viable theology nerd and I'm an American citizen you know and so I have a certain obligation to be informed about issues of our day but I I don't think there's any particular reason why you should care about my opinion versus anybody else's when it comes to those issues so I very first I just want to set expectations I'm not going to at all try and influence how you think about this election or anything to do with this election or tell you who to vote for that if you want to leave right now that's fine but just expectation what I and actually if when you heard there's going to be a lecture about the church and politics if that's the first thing that came to your mind then to me that's fascinating social experiment that when we think of oh when a church community talks about politics what they will what will be talked about is giving directions to the members of that church about how they ought how they often vote and of course the Bible will be brought into it because they're religious people and so on but that's mostly what it will be about and I told the story yesterday about the Airbnb apartment owner did you can remember that story so that was the first thing she was like oh you're a Christian you're a pastor coming to talk to another church are you going to tell them who to vote for no no but the fact is that is the first thing that came into her mind to me is really really interesting and I think it speaks to a challenge that we have in the modern West as religious communities when we think about the Bible and religion politics here is how the Bible typically comes into play in political discussions in our culture there will be someone of a certain position whatever they're of a certain really convinced about the policies of this party or on that measure or something and then what they'll end up doing is their religious or a Christian or they care about the Bible is they will go find paragraphs or sentences sometimes even just short phrases in the Bible that seem to support or bolster their point of view and then I'll attach that to the part of their like proofs of why this is a good measure or a good policy or should support this party and everybody wants to appeal to the Bible a supporting very position why because there's still this veneer of Christian ease in American politics we're appealing to the Bible is seen as somehow giving you credibility in the eyes of the public and so people all across our political spectrum do it they'll just allude to the phrases from the Bible usually the Sermon on the Mount something about loving your neighbor you know or from the letter of the James letter of James serving the poorest I'm saying but all across the spectrum to the far religious right to the religious progressive everybody does this and that's fine but the problem well actually it's not fine here's why it's not quiet is because nine times out of ten those quotations are ripped bleeding out of the context of that they were originally written in in the Bible all nine times out of ten they're being turned into meaning something that as the author would be like what it's not what I was talking about at all and so this is a double tragedy in my opinion because one we're not actually listening to the Bible we're using the Bible and the second tragedy is so when we just simply use the Bible when it's convenient or when it we wanted to cut it out and support our thing what we actually missed then is what we would learn if we were to patiently read through the whole book in the whole paragraph to understand what that sentence meant in its context hey yes good he's with me so here's what I would like to do what I would like to do is think about how within the storyline of the whole Bible I'm going to try and talk about the story of the whole Bible tonight and within the storyline of the whole Bible how does the Bible conceive of humans exercising power over one another where does that idea of humans ruling and having authority over each other where does that idea first appear in the story of the Bible and how does it develop throughout the storyline of the Bible how does that concept meet its fulfillment in Jesus in his life and death and resurrection in Kapisa center of the whole story and then how does the concept of humans having influence to rule over one another play itself out in light of the resurrection of Jesus afterwards so that's actually what I'm going to talk about tonight and I think good because what I think we lack especially in the West is a robust biblical theology of what it means for humans have authority in this world and have and be mediators of God's authority which sometimes includes having authority over each other so that's actually what I want to talk about just one second I'm going to transition to my notes close my email and and so Dave wanted to call this the early church in politics I'm much more interested in calling a political theology of the old and new Testament and had we actually called it that and none of you would have come so I understand that so this is totally a bait-and-switch just just so you know but what I do want to do is end with some conclusion that I do think are relevant for our setting in our day and the QA I'll be happy to dodge your questions after so just a quick note here I have my computer up here because I want to be able to kind of write and do some things but I'm working off a set of notes that you can have access to so let me just show that way you can have them in front of you and work with them if you want if you go to Tim Mackey calm my website right on the front page I kind of list recent events or lectures or things that I've given so right on the front page that's Kim Mackey calm under recent events here we go here this is it it's happening right here and here we are and then you can just click to the PDF that you can download or keep play with vandalize do whatever you want with it but it's just this that's right up here you guys with me cool great okay so let's as with everything you know when Jesus was asked a question on multiple occasions about marriage about divorce about why people were calling him the Messiah Jesus just had this habit of when he was asked questions about anything his brain just went back to page 1 of the Bible just read through the Gospel accounts about Jesus it's a very clear habit of his the the first pages of the Bible are doing so much more than just being the fodder for debates about the age of the earth or where humans came from and Jesus is mind and in mind of the early Christians and in Jewish tradition pages one through three of the Bible are an account of what kind of world we're living in and who God is and who we are and what's really wrong with the world and why is the world the way that it is and what's the solution if there is any and so almost every meaningful theological question that anybody could ever ask at least gets first addressed or touched upon on pages 1 2 3 of the Bible and so when we ask of how does the Bible think about humans exercising power or authority where's the first time that you will find that that topic touched upon and explored and the answer I'm just giving it to you right here can you guess what page on page 1 it's like really really important to the story of the Bible so I'm just going to throw page 1 of my Bible software up in front of you but I just a lot of what we're going to be doing tonight is just me showing you passages from the Bible reading them in context and then drawing conclusions from doing that that's a very simple procedure I really recommend it so God is depicted in Genesis chapter 1 is the one who has authority when God encounters the formless emptiness or in Hebrew Tohu Vava who to little rhyme phrase the dark chaotic void what God does is he asserts his authority over the chaos and through these acts of speaking God transforms the chaotic darkness into a garden where life can flourish but it doesn't end there but God's clearly the one who has authority and what does God do with god's authority on page 1 he takes chaotic darkness and makes it a place for life but then at the pinnacle of God speaking in acting is these famous lines right here Genesis chapter 1 verse 26 and following then God said let us make man kind in our image one second mankind who uses you can use that word and normally normal like conversation mankind what we're do you use yeah humans yeah it was or humanity would be like the more abstract concept in Hebrew it's the word Oh Dom DOM and it's really there's a connection because the word dirt or soiled Hebrew word adamah and so God takes from nada MA and and so his formed the atom and so it's a very it's not just talking about physical competition these stores are talking about who we are and and what are human beings we're earthling literally literally we're earthlings we and how do you know that because when you know they're very traditional culture you so bury your ancestors that when you you know we're a little kid and you help bury grandpa grandma or grandpa you know and wrap their body and then you put them in the tomb and the six months later you go gather what's left and then you put it in the bone box and so on and what's left of Grandma and Grandpa after six months she's decayed matter dirt we return to the dust we come from the dust and we return to the dust and so from God's good world that he has just primed and made ready for life to emerge he appoints Adam he says let us make Adam in our image in our likeness so there's a lot of long history two thousand even longer three thousand years of Jewish and Christian conversation about what what this means much later in kind of the later Christian period what the image is turned into a whole series of debates about is it like rationality or reason or morality or the capability for relationship but in the Jewish tradition it's very the interpretation of what the image is is is fairly simple and it's because it's just they're just reading in context exactly what God says the image results in God says let us make Adam in our image and in our likeness for what purpose so that humans may rule rule the first time the word rule or to have power to exercise authority appears in the Bible some pay one and whatever that the image is it's not something that humans possess it's something that humans are and it is involved in what humans do so humans are these physical representations of the of the beautiful mind that that architected and originated everything in the first part of page one and what does the beautiful mind do the beautiful mind has authority over darkness and chaos he speaks order life and time day and night and whether in the whole and all of a sudden the chaos becomes this organized ordered space and then what God does is he places images like this literally it's the word for idols the word image here is the standard word used throughout the rest of the Hebrew Bible for idol statue so it's the Hebrew word Selim so this is a great irony on page one of the Bible because one of the first commandments that God is going to give the Israel is what never make any idols to represent the deity represents God but God can make idols of gods in himself he did it one time it ended here we are the room full of them that's a very bold very bold claim that would leap off the page to any ancient reader because you know from an Israelite author to Israelites readers their world and imaginations are full of statues that represent the deity and Israel was never to make any of these why because any physical image will always reduce the creator to something within creation but also God's already made images of God's own self and it's you and it's the person sitting next to you and so you will also dishonor your own dignity as an image bearing human being if you ascribe power and divinity to a piece of wood or a piece of rock or to a piece of metal you're actually dehumanizing your own value you give your allegiance to something that's lesser than you like a rock or a tree is very profound hey isn't this amazing jet is really remarkable so we made a Bible project video about this I won't play it but we do have a bio project video about the image of God I'm quite proud of so so then the second thing is so that they may that they may rule so the image is about God placing these physical representations of God's own self and the purpose of these images and what they do was they will be physical embodiment of God's Authority what is what does God do with God's authority on page 1 of the Bible I said it twice let's say it again a third time what does God do with his power and authority he takes darkness and chaos and he brings order so that life can flourish that's what God does with his power and authority on page 1 and then what he does is he assigns that same role to the images let them rule let them rule over what fish in the sea birds in the sky livestock wild animals all the creatures that move on the ground then the story stops and the authors inserted a little short 3 line Hebrew poem as a theological reflection on what just happened in the story so God created Adam in his own image in the image of God he created them but him or them Adam is a them I thought Adam was a him nope Adam to them male and female he created them so it's really really profound so there is a singular image of the creator gods that singular image is the species Adam but Adam isn't in a dobbs own self a singular image is a Dom Adam is made up of two a doll is one humanity that consists of two others though they're distinct from each other they go together right I don't you don't need me to teach you anatomy right however they like go together in a way that's going to be significant in a second here but so they go together but yes they are also one they are two and one you get that this is God's imaging gods themself Jewish and Christian readers have been scratching their heads for millennia about what's happening right here when God chooses to image his own power and his own being in the world he does it through a being that is one yet - there is a oneness and also a plurality within how God represents God's self right here on page one with the Bible it's really remarkable and together these two are one atom that will exercise rule or power over creation so God blessed them and said be fruitful make more of yourselves look at the thing they go together so to be fruitful and increase the number make more fill the earth and subdue it rule over the fish this would rule again over the fish in the sea birds in the sky over every living creature that moves on the ground okay so just go stick your head in the story here where this is all going on page 2 what is Adam the man and the woman what do they actually end up doing with their days gardening the gardening the food the whole thing is God's made a garden he uses power I'll say - first time use this power to take darkness and chaos turn it into ordered life where life can flourish and then he puts his image the humans to rule and exercise authority over it and then there to rule and subdue it so don't don't think of like you know Al Gore's documentary whatever or Leonardo DiCaprio's if he has one out on climate change and so on so I'm really interested to see it so don't don't think of these modern image is of humans plundering right the resources of planet Earth so we're a very different stage of human history but humans don't even have the capability of doing anything less that kind of damage what does it mean for you to go into your backyard you don't have backyards in San Francisco I pity you I pity you Portland and San Francisco are very similar in many many ways but one thing that is better that NYX is slightly better than em Cisco is that we at least get little yards they're little where we get yards and and so just imagine with me think of my yard then if you don't have a yard so if I go out I'm not and I don't do this my wife actually does my wife does that sorry should just start it there my wife goes out into the backyard and she has some raised beds that she grows vegetables and herbs in and this kind of thing and so if she leaves those garden beds to their own devices will things grow in them yes God has packed this world full of so much potential that you don't have to do anything to it it just grows it just sprouts an under seemingly infinite source of just it's not evident but from this perspective and from their perspective it's just it's all constantly growing and growing and growing but if I want to bring order to the chaos of that growth if I want to subdue it and harness that potential in channel its energy so that all of that growth can instead of growing weeds can grow like tomatoes for our whole family for a whole summer what what does my wife have to do she has to rule she has a rule of the garden bed she has to subdue it she has to take the raw materials and bend them in a direction to create to bring order to them to create even more life in flourishing will an apple tree just grow apples by itself yes but if the human harnesses apple tree and creates an orchard can it create more apples that can feed more people so that's the image right here it's not about plundered it's about harnessing the the god-given potential that's in our world creating order and then creating things that can channel more energy and more life and more productivity and so on so this is what humans do now when God Commission's the humans to do this does this job description sound familiar to you yes it's what God did this was in this depiction of God's speaking and bringing order to the chaos and the void it's exactly what God did and then God places images of God's own self in the creation this pinnacle of all the created species and humans exist in God's world in a way that's different than gorillas or elephants like he human when human beings go into a new space tribes they I mean at least for some period of our history we hunted and gathered and so on but there's something about humans and when they flourish and make more of themselves and create societies we don't just exist in the environment we make environment holy cow I went up to Bernal Hill today for the first time I walked up there Bernal Bernal Heights what'd he call it Bernal Heights or Burnett Hill I'm so sorry that's Oh Bernal Heights Bernal Heights and I was thinking about this talk and I'm just like if this is what humans do this San Francisco it's incredible this is really an incredible city gorillas don't do this you know it's like elephants don't do this anteaters and so on you know and sure chimpanzees these primitive tools and can do this kind of thing but like not there's nothing like what humans do here on planet Earth and that's what the story is reflecting on but there is that there's a divine spark a divine nature within humanity as a species and with that god-given responsibility comes in immense immense accountability before God and so right here on page one of the Bible I think are the roots of how God's people are to think about the nature of power and the nature of ruling and having authority God is depicted of the ruler and what does God do was the stiff times now safer he takes his power to create order out of chaos and to create an environment so that life can flourish and then he plants his image he appoints the human species to do the exactly the same thing on God's behalf and so you could say it this way you could say how does God exercise his rule and authority over the world according to page 1 in the Bible how does God exercise God's rule and authority over creation according to page 1 in the Bible through humans through human through His image the whole storyline of the Bible is about how God is apparently so overjoyed with the nature of existence and creativity that the universe we exist in is about God sharing existence with us and so what God does the record he page 1 the Bible has create this incredible environment which is power and authority to share life and to share the beauty of existence and then what he wants humans do is to just mimic that and go do the same thing so there are lots of reflections on Genesis 1 throughout the rest of the Bible this isn't just so you know that I'm just not making this up let's just take another biblical author who spent a lot of time reading page 1 of the Bible with many cups of tea and long walks I'm sure and the anonymous biblical author the wrote Psalm 33 created this poem sing joyfully to the Lord you righteous it's fitting for the upright to praise him praise the Lord with the heart to make music sing him on the 10 stringed wire sing a new song play skillfully shout for joy for the word of the Lord and I would I didn't talk about this but how does God bring order to the chaos from page 1 of the Bible through ten acts of speaking the word of the Lord it's right it's true he's faithful in all he does the Lord loves righteousness and justice and the earth is full of his unfailing love now maybe some these words in the song before and this sounds great what that art does actually mean what does it mean to say the planet is full of God's unfailing covenant love that is a mind-blowing ly profound statement this is a reflection on page one of the Bible what does God do with his word what does God do with his power he creates environments that are conducive for life for humans to flourish for be fruitful and multiply and and gardens and parks and playgrounds and art museums and music venues and write the whole thing like for humans to go do this God's the one who created this environment and a universe that you and I can inhabit that that's rationally comprehendible to us why does math work for example you know and like what we're in a world that isn't completely hostile to our existence in it it's as if it's made for us are you with me there's something and you don't actually have to be religious to make a statement like that you just look at how the constants of the universe and now the math works out and the fact that we are here is so remarkable we think the Wizard of Oz land is strange we're living in a land much much more strict than the Land of Oz you know saying we've just forgotten about it and so what from what kind of mind is that emerge from the Beautiful Mind who speaks order into the chaos the word of the Lord is right and true and here's another thing that's interesting a reflection the Lord loves righteousness and justice this is Hebrew night you didn't come expecting this but righteousness Hebrew the word said it and it's very difficult word to capture in most other languages or translations so I can't think of one word to do it the smartest people that I've read goes something like this right relation righteousness is a standard of right equitable relationship you and I share our existence in a space and I'm not more important than you you're not more important than me we agree to exist together and for one another in a space it's righteousness and justice it's the Hebrew word mishpokhe and it's about actions that you take to create setec so justice is about when you see injustice when you see in equity when you see environments where all of a sudden something is askew in the relationships in the situation and now all of a sudden people cannot flourish life cannot flourish Mich pot is the actions you take usually it's something that judges do in the Old Testament to create an environment ascetic once again and so what the poet of Psalm 33 reflects back on page one of the Bible and says God is creating he loved setec English pop how do you know look around I mean the planet is just sprouting with life it's sprouting with opportunities for humans to go multiply like rabbits to make more of themselves and create more communities and to image God's rule and authority to subdue it and to create even more flourishing life out of the chaos the earth those garden Reds sprouting with life or the apple tree that just grows food by itself there's just Groce soon for us but it's so incredible so the fallen is unfailing love and then what I'm called to do is God's image is to take the apple tree and then till I grow a whole row of them and then I can grow apples for my family but also the family next door and for the whole neighborhood and we'll stock the food pantry to be with me that's the idea here the Lord loves on the word the earth is full of ism failing love by the word of the Lord the heavens were made the starry hosts by the breath of his mouth he gathers water of the sea into jars a great metaphor he puts the deep into the storehouses so everybody fear the Lord let all the people of the world Revere him important we'll talk about this he spoke and it came to be he commanded he's the king and it stood firm so we're reflecting on how God is the king the commander and the ruler of all and what he did is packed the world out of his love full of life and then he stations human beings as his image over it so that they can imitate the divine love and do exactly the same thing for each other and to do it in a way that promotes mish pot and setec hey guys done here we go this is this creation theology or political theology I said I don't know it's just the same thing it's the same thing so this is a vision of what human beings are and what human beings are for according to page 1 of the Bible they look at my notes and just make sure I'm in the ballpark here what I'm supposed to be saying yes ok so so when we talk about politics politics is a greek word that comes from the root where a root root Greek word Poland which is the Greek word for city like the metro polis spreading polis City so political is we're talking about what are the conditions that make life good for a group of people who commit to living in a closed-in environment together what are the terms and the conditions by which they're going to get along and so you you can really easily say Jenna chapter 1 page 1 of the Bible is a political theology it's describing the kind of world we're living in who's behind it all it's describing who we are and what our job is in the world as we inhabit it together we're called to rule and subdue and to do it in a way that imitates God setec his love for setec and his love his love for mr. pop let's page 1 of the Bible call it a utopian vision I don't know but that's page 1 of the Bible how long does the garden last two pages do potatoes of the story so long long story short the humans are given a choice as they go about ruling and subdue the world are they going to stay hands off of defining good and evil if you're going to subdue the world and create neighborhoods and gardens and Families and so on you're going to have to make decisions about what is good and what is not good aren't you you're going to have to and so the question is what is the source of our definition of what is good and what is not good as we go about subdue and ruling the world and so the tree in the story represents this choice am I going to trust God's wisdom because God is the provider of good in the story on page 1 am I going to trust and rely on God's wisdom for defining good and evil or am I going to take can seize independence to define good and evil from for myself as I go about building God's world and how does the story go I trust you know how it goes you've seen the movie about it or something right so it doesn't go well human beings rebel and they define good and evil on their own terms and then where the story art goes from there is it ends up in the fracture of a marriage then of a family then of two brothers then the one brother murders another brother and then goes and builds a city it's a first city in the story line of the Bible and it's a city where hate and vengeance and murder reign a guy named lame Xing spawns about about killing people and then all of it leads to the city and the tower of Babylon where humanity gives this collective act of rebellion to the creator and so that's where the story goes is it leads to Babylon he had image bearers who were supposed to rely on God's wisdom in their politics that can define a good and evil and where you end up is Babylon and where the story goes from there again make a long story short God chooses one family through whom he's going to restore his blessing to all the nations of the earth that family grows big time and then they end up down in the land of what where they're going looking for food they end up in what land land of Egypt and how do things go for them there they go get it first but then eventually things go really really bad and the story of what happens in Egypt is crucially important because it's the first difficult depiction of a corrupt superpower it's it's the first elaborate depiction of politics gone wrong in the Bible and what do you have you have a king who sees here an immigrant population in his own land they are being fruitful and multiplying like rabbits and all of a sudden the first thing he thinks is oh my gosh national security threat he thinks of national security and then what he does is he enslaved these people and he harnesses them towards his own economic ends they're building storehouses and cities and then all of a sudden because his own power and the self-interest of his group and his tribe he's so redefined good and evil that it all of a sudden becomes good to start killing these people off in the interests of the security and economic safety of his own country and so he and access flow genocide of the Israelite people it's a very literally realistic depiction of the world that you and I know isn't it we call it exodus chapters 1 & 2 and the root of it is in a very powerful moment in the stories in Exodus chapter 5 is where Moses goes to Pharaoh famous line you've probably seen the movie the old one or the new one and where Moses says let my people go that they may hold a festival to me and Pharaoh says who's that who's the Lord I'm not going to obey Him and let Israel go I don't even know who Yahweh is I'm not going to let Israel go it's a really important moment in the story so what you have is you go from rebellious humanity you end up in Babylon and now we end up in Egypt who's the first major corrupt superpower and what's it all rooted in it's rooted in a ruler who won't acknowledge that the Creator God is actually his authority and so this human Authority has completely forgotten that he's an image he thinks he's the reality who's Yahweh and so was this what this usurper ends up doing is describing his own national security and his own military security he like elevates it up to the heavens and gives it a divine stamp of authority and power and if it's a depiction of humanity gone completely off the tracks and we're killing other people in the name of these interests becomes good it's it's a very powerful and tragic story the way the story begins and if you know how that Exodus story goes God says okay you want to play hardball let's play hardball and then come to 10 plagues it gets very intent and who wins that showdown so God wins that showdown pretty dramatically and then the Israelites saying a poem about it in Exodus chapter 15 very important XS 15 is called the song of the seed and the Israelites seeing this long poem about the battle and Pharaoh's sinking down to the bottom of the sea and his armies and so on and then we praise God for his ability to harness the power of creation to defeat evil and promote justice and goodness and look at the last lives long gone look at the last line of the poem who's the true king of the nations Yahweh the Creator God of Israel politics these stories are all about politics yeah I get repaid to the Bible is about politics let's get exactly right so the biblical drama is essentially about God creating a world and that he wants to rule through human beings but human beings have declared independence and they redefine right and wrong in their personal interests or tribal interests and when human beings do that we create death in the world we create violence we create the very opposite of setec in fact the the prophet Isaiah in Chapter 1 has this great poem where he says instead of creating tzedakah you corrupt rulers have created sakhaa and sokka's a hebrew words that mean cries for help because of injustice so this the end so the plot tension of the whole Bible becomes this God's purpose and plan was to share his world with humanity and the gods rule and authority over the creation would be mediated through human beings but now human beings have declared independence and they don't want to submit to God's rule they want to become their own rulers and what does that result in it results in things like Exodus chapters 1 & 2 injustice violent conflict and death and so now the question is what on earth is God going to do hey guys done here on the edge of your seat you should be this is good biblical drama right here and so where the story goes from here I knew that I had way too much material and that's okay the notes are just there for you but in my head I've got another arc going right now so I'm just going to say say in a storyline so that's the plot tension driving driving the whole thing and so the question is how on earth is God going to assert his rule again over the nation's and when we come to the claims of the New Testament every single one of the New Testament documents is connecting itself to that basic storyline and trying to present Jesus to us as the one in whom this whole political conflict finds its resolution just take for example the Gospel of Matthew most of us avoid reading the first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew because just look up there what does it consist of a genealogy but don't skip it don't see actually this is a he gives you a Cliff Notes version of the whole thing in the first line what he wants to tell you is that Jesus is the Messiah it's a Hebrew word that means king anointed king he's the son of David from the Lion of Israel's ancient King he's the son of Abraham which means Matthew's claiming here as clear as he could be at least Jewish readers the Jesus is the promised messianic King who's going to fulfill the promise to David that their one day would come a king from his line that would rule over all the nations and that connects to the promise that God gave to Abraham that one day through Abraham's family somehow God's blessing would be restored to all the nations of the earth and Jesus of Nazareth is presented as the one in whom that whole storyline comes to its resolution and so it should not surprise us at all that when Matthew the first time summarizes for us what Jesus went about announcing on an average day he used political language if you were to hear Jesus talked on any given day what would you hear him talking about you might hear him say love your neighbor you might hear him say bless your enemy is there something like that what you for sure would hear and talk about no matter what is the kingdom of God is here and he goes on throughout the story is Matthew all the Gospels have this to the storyline of Jesus saying that God's reign and rule and authority it's arrived it's here here's Mark's summary of what Jesus said on an average day after John was put in prison Jesus went into Galilee proclaiming the good news of God the times come he said the kingdom of God has come near repent and believe in the good news the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom the kingdom so Jesus presents himself as the one who's here to bring God's rule back over his world it's exactly the storyline that the whole Old Testament story sets up the plan was always that there would be a human who would perfectly embody God's rule and authority here over the nation and we've done a pretty bad job of that Babylon Egypt and now finally here comes here comes the one he's the true human one who's going to embody God's perfect fish pot and setec rule over the nation's and so what if Jesus do this is brilliant on Matthews part right after Matthew presents Jesus as announcing the good news what's the first thing that Jesus does he goes up onto a mountain and he talks for three long chapters about what about life in the kingdom this is a political manifesto we call it the Sermon on the Mount which kind of neuters the powerful attack but as this is a kingdom manifesto this is a manifesto for those who are going to follow Jesus the Messiah and and rediscover what it means to rule as God's image bearing human beings and right from the start Jesus turns everything upside down because he says yes you know who the kingdom of heaven it you know who rules in God's world it's the poured spirit and the and those who mourn and the meek the people with no power and influence they're the ones who will inherit God's good world it's those who hunger and thirst for righteousness are familiar lines to you I trust this whole thing is Jesus's manifesto of an upside-down kingdom and everything's upside down in Jesus kingdom if you want to be the most influential person you will rule by becoming a servant everybody if you want to be the most important you'll actually put yourself in the position of least important if you want to really show that you love people what you'll do is not just like spend your time investing in the people who've been like benefit you you'll spend your time and your resources giving things away to people who can't benefit you at all because that's how what's what it really means to rule as a human being this is my summary of the Sermon on the Mount but it's a it's so powerful it's completely counterintuitive and just do a word search on Kingdom through what we call the Sermon on the Mount and you'll it's Jesus's political manifesto of life in his upside-down kingdom and he doesn't just talk about it he lives it when Jesus rides into the Israel's Royal City when he rides in and he's hailed by the crowds as the Messiah what week is it in the Jewish calendar when he rides into the city Passover so he rides into Jerusalem for Passover he's being hailed as the Messiah and that kick starts a whole series of events that end up with him being executed on a Roman execution rack and what does he receive on his head as he goes to his throne called the cross he receives a crown of thorns and what does he get draped around his shoulders and he gets led out to his throne he receives a robe and what does he receive and his enthronement Sarah he gets abroad as fast that he's beaten with and so Matthews portraying to us that what it looks like for human being to truly exert God's rule over a rebellious humanity is for the king to become the sacrifice Passover land God and this is so remarkable on page one what does God do with his rule and with his authority he invested totally in an effort to share life with other creatures and then he gives rule and authority to them so that they can now share in the wonder of existing and ruling over God's good world and what we see happening in the story of Jesus it's that same God who's asserting his reign and rule over the world by taking the world's evil into himself and by allowing it to crush him and kill him and destroy him and because this God's love for life is so passionate and it's so strong he won't allow our evil our twisted political distorted ideas of what it means to be human beings to get the final word and the empty tomb is God's act of new creation and that's why when Jesus comes out of the tomb and he Commission's his last words to the disciples he sends them out he starts talking about politics again Jesus you just look really into politics right so Jesus came to them and he said all authority in heaven and on earth is mine he's the truly human one he's the image of God we've been waiting for therefore go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them to obey everything I commanded you just cue Matthew chapters 5 through 7 the political manifesto of an upside-down kingdom yeah that go do that and surely I am with you always to the very end of the age I am with you he's the Emmanuel he's God with us and so the Gospels present to us this the mind-bending claim that for humans to actually achieve political order in the world we are we were unable to do it ourselves because what we will inevitably do is segment ourselves lost in the nations and tribes we will redefine good and evil even if despite our best intentions we redefine good and evil in the interests of me and my group and that almost always comes at the expense of you and your group even when we don't intend to do that it's what humans do and that's what humans are left to our own devices and so God comes to be the image bearing ruling human that he made us to be but that we failed to be and he begins a new kingdom it's this outpost of God's heavenly kingdom here on earth and Jesus Commission's his disciples to go out into the kingdoms of this world and to invite people to live under the reign of the resurrected King Jesus and here we go into the rest of the political theology of the New Testament and this is why the early Christians pose such a paradox to the early Roman world let me just show you one example hey guys in great let me just show you one example the book of Acts is all about politics all about politics what is Jesus talking about when he Commission's his disciples at the beginning of book of the book of Acts he appeared to them for a period of over 40 days speaking to them about the kingdom of God he says but don't leave yet wait for the empowerment of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is going to transform you to become truly human John baptized with water in a few days will be baptized with the Holy Spirit you're going to receive power and go be my witnesses in Jerusalem Judea Samaria to all the ends of the earth and that's what happened and here's the paradox that the early Christians posed they their basic message was good news there's a new king good news there's a new king now on Wednesday what's tonight Tuesday this Tuesday is Monday Monday right so whatever on Wednesday some people will be saying good news there's a new ruler and some people will be saying bad news there's a new ruler whatever and I won't what we not going to tell you what you should do about that or who you should vote for them but that's not my goal right here so but this was politically loaded language to go around and now seeing good news good news there's a new king how would I just imagine how a Roman person would hear that let's just take a live sample here Thessalonica when Paul and his companions pass through Amphipolis and Apollonia they came to Thessalonica there was a Jewish synagogue there as was his custom Paul went to the synagogue for three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures explaining and proving that the Messiah the king he had to suffer and rise from the dead this Jesus I'm proclaiming to you he's the king he's the risen King some of the Jews were persuaded joined Paul and Silas as did a large number of Greek who believed in God in the God of Israel but weren't quite ready to commit the full way yet and actually a number of really influential women in the city but there were other Jews who were jealous so they rounded up some bad characters in the marketplace they formed a mob what happens when you go around announcing that there's a new king on the throne that was not elected and actually he doesn't even live in Rome he doesn't even live in DC like the king just elected himself by rising from the dead in Jerusalem are you with me here like this is a standing claim to make and it gets it forms mob that's what happens when you start announcing that there's a new king that nobody voted for they rush to Jason's house to look for Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd but they didn't find any of them so they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials shouting and here it is these men are causing trouble all the world and they've come here Jason welcomed them into their house into his house they are defying Cesar's decrees saying that there's another king ruling the Roman Empire this Jesus this is what it means but clearly people heard the announcement of the good news as having political implications because what it's saying is that every ruler who calls themself the ruler and in this time in history most of these rulers deified themselves and gave them their own power and regime divine status and what the announcement of the gospel is is saying actually all of the self-proclaimed rulers of this world are accountable to a greater king the creator and the Redeemer God who came among us in the person of Jesus who lived and died and was raised he's the risen king of the world and and but the paradox is this it sounds like you're forming a coup a military coup in time after again this happened six times in the book of Acts where Paul gets arrested people think he's committing treason or sedition and he gets brought before the rulers and they say what are you all about and he's like well this is guy named Jesus and pacifist and you know you'd live but he rose again and he told us to love our neighbor as ourselves and feed the poor and that he's going to take over all the kingdoms of this world one day and you need to check yourself because you're living under his authority but you know I'm just supposed to love you and serve you in his name because the same Paul look at this the same Paul who's going around forming mobs and starting riots with his announcement when he actually writes letters to one of these churches say the church in Rome this was a church that had been absolutely torn apart by ethnic divisions Jew and Gentile the Jewish population of this church community had actually been exiled from Rome twice I think you're just you're living in your home and then 2,000 of years you know you're an immigrant population in the city and then all of a sudden 2,000 of you are rounded up by emperor Tiberius in 19 and said your synagogue is too popular there are too many people starting to worship the God of Israel in prison to Sardinia all of you how do you feel about your life and then a mere 30 years later in 49 ad not long after not long before Paul wrote this letter there were some 10,000 Jews exiled from the city of Rome over issue of taxes and so Paul so the Jews come back many of them are followers of Jesus there's immense friction in this church community and here's Paul's council let everyone be subject to the governing authorities there is no authority except what God's established so Tiberius Claudius are they good are they good men they're jerks okay a jerk but who did got a point to exert his rule and authority over the world humans and humans do it poorly they do it less poorly they do it okay they do it pretty good but what what's the goal here what does God do with his with his power and authority you create order so that life can flourish and so what what what Paul calls these these Christians to do is don't revolt don't form a revolution this is this is your calling before God the authorities that exist have been established by God to rebel against Authority is to rebel against God's instituted Authority and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves listen rulers don't hold terror for those who do right but for those who do wrong do you want to be free from fear of authority do what's right and you'll be commended for the one of us in authority is God's servant for your good but if you do wrong be afraid for rulers don't bear the sword for no reason they're God's servants oh we love death not a little good there Gus okay went away there God's servants agents of wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer therefore it's necessary to submit to the authorities not only because of possible punishment but a matter of conscience now who saw this coming who saw this coming you didn't see this coming did you you saudis starting riot he's announcing there's another king so if you want if you want to get a new ruler and authority because you think this one's corrupt and we're talking about a dictatorship here a like a theocracy dictatorship the roman emperors deified themselves the Roman Empire was personified and a goddess called di Roma the power of the Roman Empire is worshipped there's no like voting here so you just accept it and so here's what Paul here's what Paul discerned he discerns that at least some order is better than no order even if it's a bad ruler a bad ruler creates some order which is better than no order there seems to be as logic here and he's saying this ruler even if they're super corrupt they still are an embodiment of God's Authority they're God's servant now this is a tricky one for us we we don't know quite what to do with this because what it seems like Paul saying is that God somehow endorses all of the behavior of this king that's exactly what Paul's not saying he's actually he's speaks Hebrew he's immersed in the Hebrew Scriptures so his readers it's it's an allusion to Jeremiah chapter 25 when God brought a foreign ruler to be instrument of his justice on the violence and corruption and idolatry of the people of Israel the king of Babylon everybody knows remember his name G Book of Jeremiah Nebuchadnezzar and what God says about Nebuchadnezzar well let me check my note I'm just all over the place and he even worried about it 9 verse 9 therefore this is what the Lord Almighty says because you haven't listened to my words I'm going to summon all the people of the north and my servant the king of Babylon and I'll bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against the surrounding nations so God can and have in Israel's history employed corrupt horrible rulers to accomplish his purposes this doesn't mean that God endorses everything a king does what does it mean it means God's the king of the world and he orchestrates even rebellious Nations towards his own redemptive purposes and so what he uses Nebuchadnezzar as a servant to take out the city of Jerusalem to carry his own people away into exile and then what does God do he appoints another ruler to come take Babylon down the kingdom of Persia and then the kingdom of Persia deifies his own power you can read the story about it in the book of Esther and so what does God do he raises up the king of Greece to bring the Persians down and then the Greeks deify they're on power and then he gets with me here right and so in the book of Daniel this cycle of kingdoms that keep elevating themselves and then abusing their own power they get get turned into a metaphor in the Book of Daniel is beast instead of ruling over the beasts like page 1 of the Bible when human beings don't submit to God as king they actually become beasts they become less than human we become animals that tear and rip each other apart as we redefine good needle in our own interest and so what Paul Paul's walking a very fine line here he's saying the kingdom of God through Jesus exerts its power by giving up power it the kingdom of God exemplified through Jesus exerts its authority by coming under the authority of others and using every ounce of leverage and energy and resource and opportunity to serve the most hurting and the most vulnerable that's the upside down kingdom of Jesus and so Paul says don't revolt don't revolt just the wrong move you won't be faithful to Jesus as king of the nations if you do that and and so there you go like that's what Paul says there are lots of people who wish that he hadn't wrote written these words but he did write them and I think that he minced them he wrote them to a community of Jesus's followers who were in a very difficult situation with bad leaders and what he caused them to do is to pray for these leaders praise that God's justice will come on these leaders and then to submit to their submit to their authority and in their own community live out the upside-down kingdom of Jesus and this is essentially the political theology of the New Testament no matter who's in charge you pray for them like crazy you come under their authority even if they're corrupt because you know that they actually have someone that they're accountable to whether they acknowledge it or not and then you use every resource and opportunity that you have as you pray for peace in your land to share the good news about the risen King Jesus that's essentially the political theology of the New Testament and we wait for the day that Jesus King Jesus will return he will set all wrongs right and he will deal justice out in a way that I never could because I'm so biased and partial in ways that I don't even understand hey guys done so let me wrap this up I don't know if you're going to ask me back again these are my open-ended conclusions the Bible doesn't offer a divine endorsement for any kind of political form of organized government it gives a very thorough exploration of what political power is but it doesn't endorse any particular form of government implication apparently human beings can organize themselves in all kinds of ways to honor God's purposes to rule and have authority to take to create order out of chaos so that humans can flourish and in justice and righteousness if I'm a Christian my true identity is first and foremost as an image bearing human and as a child of God in the multi-ethnic international family of Jesus my primary identity markers I might find myself in this family I might find myself in this ethnic I might find ethnic group and I might find myself in this social economic group or in this nation those aren't the primary definers of my identity I'm an image bearing human I'm a child's God in the family of Jesus if I'm a follower of Jesus my ultimate loyalty is to the risen King Jesus and he's the Lord of all nations he formed a political body called the church it's a group of people who commit to each other to live in a common life together according to the terms of the upside-down manifesto of the kingdom and the primary ethic of that kingdom is love and to seek the well-being of others above my own and so what this does is the last thing this is the most complex one is it means that we're dual citizens we're dual citizens if you're a follower of Jesus so we find ourselves in nation and Families and in social circumstances and those are a part of my identity they're a part of my story and in a very important passage in Paul's letter to the he calls this gun calling wherever you find yourself this is God's calling it's the place you are among the family of the nation's to live out your allegiance to King Jesus and so as we saw we're called to honor the structures of authority because God wants to rule this world through human being and we mostly do it poorly some do it better some do it worse we're called to live under that as a way of honoring God's own authority if God's people have the opportunity to participate in those authority structures were called to do that and to leverage that influence for the well-being of others in the community think of Joseph's ruling in Egypt think of Esther influencing in Persia think of Daniel who's a Hebrew he takes the Babylonian name he starts dressing with Babylonian fashion and he works for the Babylonian government but he retains his identity as a member of gods family and then when it comes to it when it comes to it this is very important when those Authority structures become corrupt when they don't sustain the good God's people are first called to nonviolent resistance and prophetic critique like what Daniel does in Babylon he says listen I'm not going to acknowledge you as divine I'm not going to acknowledge the Babylonian Empire as divine I'll serve in your government and I'll seek to promote the common good and if you're going to kill me then kill me they kill me but just know you're still not my king I'm going to serve you I'm going to serve you because you're an image bearing human being and you're in a position of authority over me but you're actually not my true king so kill me if you need to but remember you have a king with more powerful video bye this is the prophetic critique of God's people and this is crucially important to this nonviolent resistant prophetic critique and you see it right it's what the Gospels are the story of the gospel about Jesus is non violent prophetic critique of the rulers and Jesus's day in Jerusalem of the the temple establishment and when those Authority structures demand loyalty that compromises allegiance to Jesus God's people are to humbly disobey the famous line that Peter says and acts we obeyed the Kings was your King rather than you in this moment and so what if she are going to kill me then kill me and this is the pattern that we see all throughout the political theology of of the New Testament and the Old Testament it's a theology of dual citizenship and of the upside down Kingdom I this this theology right I'm pretty sure this is what the Bible is trying to tell us how any given group of Christians and all the different types of governments and all the different ethnic and cultural settings around the world apply this and live this out in their own unique setting that that is the Holy Spirit's job to guide his people for how to do this but it seems to me this is basically the shape of the story of political power and authority in the Bible I guess done I think I've talked to like an hour in 10 minutes cheers okay I'm done [Laughter] uh yeah we're over here thank you so much I was that was really good uh we have time for a few just a cup actually only a couple questions later oh okay uh yeah until name is 20 15 minutes yeah that's great but I want to I want to ask you something I want you to comment on something that I think is important yeah it seemed that when we asked you know setting this up this political conversation you and I don't think a lot of us even have the patience for this really you had to start at the beginning and give us a complete like in depth theology yeah when most of us want a voters guide yes just comment on that just even like do we even want to put in the work to actually understand the question yes just comment on that well yeah part of that's just how my brain works yeah but which ends up being that I usually talk too long and almost any teaching ethics because I but for me this is something when we let the debates of our age set the categories what we're doing is we're not we're just using the Bible we're not actually listening to it and that's good you with me yeah so it's just it's just like in a conversation with my wife you know all respond to what I understood her to say which is not actually what she said and so it requires immense patience to to listen and to not let my questions and interest drive the agenda of what the Scriptures are trying to tell me and I don't know any other way to let our minds be renewed so that when no matter what political election cycle I find myself in I'm grounded in this story and in the world view that gives me wisdom otherwise well there you go yeah my my short name is good questions raise your hand they could be about anything no I'm sure questions about up here yeah so I'll just ask the loaded one that I think he tried to dance around at the end yeah so I with the logic that the Bible doesn't espouse anyone to like political view but I think that sometimes that line of thinking gets used to basically say it doesn't really matter just like kind of take the world as it comes and just live the bend life that Jesus called you to which like I do think it's true but with everything in life are we not called to make choices big and small that reflect the kingdom whether it's how we're choosing to spend our time or our money or the words that we choose and in the same way as like consumers and purchasers of a government so to speak aren't isn't that also relevant like the way that we say okay well then what am I going to select here doesn't that choice then matter because if it doesn't then I don't understand can I just not spend my money however and just be like well that's fine because like that money affects people in the government that I choose them affects people yes so I think the question that I'm hearing you ask is should are we reading Romans 13 as this charter for political quietism that just accepts the world as it exists already and I shouldn't seek to change it I just submit to it and I just follow Jesus and I just let the powers Rumble on or am I supposed to engage in a proactive project of helping shape the world so that the structures that are around me are actually more conducive to the license work is that what I mean I'm saying it my language is that what I'm hearing you ask yeah I agree yeah so again Romans 13 isn't the only thing Paul said and did he was speaking to a community in crisis it was a community under surveillance by the government it was me because people in this community had been exiled multiple times already and so in a community that's under fire for the government what he says isn't revolt what he says is just chill just chill and follow Jesus God will bring justice on the evildoers what he's but he so he's putting out a fire and she stands right there so this this isn't Paul saying everything in one space he's responding to the past oral crisis in a particular Church so this has been a question throughout the history of the church is that if Jesus followers do have the opportunity and leverage to begin shaping and influence the structures of power around them should they do so and this is where I think we need to turn to the pattern important Old Testament pattern of Israel and exile and why are multiple Israelites in exile being put in front of us who gets put into positions of influence and power and what do they do notice two of them Joseph and Daniel the Holy Spirit plays a huge role in this in their stories it's the Holy Spirit guiding these individuals in very corrupt governments but to use their position through the wisdom and guidance of the Spirit to influence the structures around them and so I do think I think absolutely lacks Jesus's followers have marching orders not to take over the world but in the positions that we find ourselves in and the opportunities the Spirit opens up for us and we all have different callings I think that we are called to serve and promote the common good but that's very different than trying to take over the world it's using the opportunities that the Spirit opens up for me to seek the common good and to seek the kingdom it's just a different mindset but I think if the mind said that the story is trying to do I hope that makes some sense that's good down here anyone here they're over here we'll go here then there see out here first hey Timmy Dave I was wondering if you've done when you're creating this if you looked at in any of the dutch reformed theologians because they have probably the biggest influence in our culture regarding how we approach property rights civil rights for example i mean they're the primary reason why the Magna Carta existed why the Glorious Revolution happened 1660 1688 they actually came over here their extension of the pilgrims so how does does they viewed politics as much more of a proactive process to defend people to defend individual liberties so how do you think that that do you think that they were overzealous in that or do you think that that somehow marries with something stuff they've talked about yeah well I should be really honest I don't know most of what you're talking about so and that's why I told Dave I was like are you sure I'm a Bible nerd so like I'm not a political history nerd so you know I've I'm familiar with the general thrust of Christian political thought Augustine was crucial crucial in the theology of natural law that all human beings have a sense of right and wrong even if we don't always observe it and that the City of God and the City of Man find this common space to pursue justice in the common good and that Christians can create common consensus to good and evil to influence the structures around them and to my understanding the Dutch Reformed are an extension of that natural am I right about that right so I guess I'm I'm just I'm not that familiar with what that group accomplished I just think they're to me to go back to my area of expertise the Bible what's fascinating is that every story in the Bible there's lots of stories about God's people trying to use power to do something and to me what's fascinating is all of the case studies that are provided and some do really bad some do pretty good like Solomon and then he's a case study of just at late in his right of the success of his career it all just goes terribly wrong because of idolatry he gives away as he legion but then you have somebody like Joseph whose success story but he's just working in a really tough environment you know but God is able to use him Daniel's a success story working in a tough environment and he didn't really seem to really accomplish very much except have bad dreams okay you know so to me what's what's interesting is the diversity of portrayals in the Bible about the kind of success that we can hope for in pursuing the common good with the opportunities and so I think sometimes does people botched the job worse or better but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and so I'm I'm not going to come in you know on the Dutch performed when they came over because I mean I suppose I'm living as a beneficiary of a lot of their work which I'm grateful for but I'm going to start saying something really stupid if I keep going I'm sorry I'm not intelligent enough to answer your question because that's what I'm saying right now but to come back there's a diversity of portrayals of God's people trying to do the right thing and having mixed results and to me that's very telling at least even our grand ideals will always meet the hard reality at some point and that doesn't mean in the power of the Spirit we don't go out in the name of Jesus to seek the common good it just means we live in a world where most humans want to define right and wrong apart from God and that's just how it's going to be yeah think that's great great answer it's a good question yeah wish I was smarter hi 10 I just want to push a little bit more on the section I've highlighted more about how how do we as Christians engage in authority structures and or particularly when do we use force for a back lack of a better term horse I force yeah I'm sorry let me let me qualify that yeah I mean you mentioned Joseph Esser Daniel etc that engaged in the government and kinda influenced it right but I often think to compare that with Jesus and how he lived right like Philippians 2 and Jesus was in the very nature God right but he humbled himself and it seems like the other Gospels he's he could have come and used a lot of force he could have tried he could have made things the way that they should be but instead he was more like soft with his influence was more persuasive with the way that he lived in the way that you interacted with people instead of instead of just you know what I mean forcefully making the thing the things the way that they should be so I I'm confused about how how often should I follow that way that I perceive Jesus to have acted and how often should I interact in the government and I'm in a more yeah sometimes voting even seeing just the act of voting seems like trying to impose my will on two other people well I mean ruling is about imposing my will on creation so that it goes in a certain direction it wouldn't go by itself my wife and slanter bed and so that's also what happens individually and collectively when we participate in creating governing structures requi are creating structures so that life gets ordered in a way that it wouldn't just if the structure wasn't there to that I I think I would differ with you in saying that Jesus wasn't forceful Jesus wasn't violent but he was a force to be reckoned with he sure didn't get executed for telling people to love your neighbor he got executed for the stunt that he pulled riding into Jerusalem proclaimed as Messiah marching into the temple just like going to the National Cathedral and the White House at the same time and asserting that he's the king and shutting down the sacrificial system and saying this place is full of crooks that's what he got executed for and that's very forceful act after a long career of announcing that the kingdom of God is here and then to allow his enemies to kill him I think was his most aggressive forceful act of self control and of servanthood and and what he's living out is exactly the pattern of these three characters how did Joseph end up in that place but he was sold as a slave that's how he did up there how did Daniel end up there he was captured as a prisoner and so it's this portrait of it's actually somehow through suffering and sacrifice that God's people end up in places of greatest influence that's the pattern in the story and it's precisely when I when I try not to grab onto power through the ways that the world does is where the spirit opens up opportunities for influence and so I don't know how that's supposed to work in terms of like a strategy plan to like help create legislation for poor people in my neighborhood like I don't actually know I think there are wise people full of the spirit of Jesus who are part of the source community who could answer that question better but I don't think it means just sitting around being passive Jesus wasn't passive but he wasn't violent and that's I think the key the key difference that's really good yeah that's really good for good down here right here how should Christians coordinates their engagement or disengagement when exercising power how Christians organize their own engagement today employ presumably shouldn't be like half of Christians say this government structure is is corrupt and we will disobey versus the other half which would I don't do what are the earlier things on the checklist like so the question is like should we organize as Christians around certain things that we can engage and disengage right yeah so like the last point that point of last resort is that if you're inside of a very corrupt structure that you would disengage from it yeah and presumably we should all disengage all at once right I see well that's interesting how do we figure one yeah point is in question I mean I think Jesus already set the terms of Christian organization it's called the church and that's how Christians organize Christians can also as citizens of a particular country organized with other like-minded groups of citizens Christian or not towards a particular purpose or goal but it seems to me Jesus already set up the the means of Christian organization to influence and spread the kingdom of God in the world and it's the church that's just the first thing he was recurring to me and so if Christians also want to have influence on specific issues then they should do that and thank God that we live in the nation where we can do that and not be worried for our lives like that's such a gift that we live in a place so should people do that yes I think they probably should because a lot of broken stuff needs to get fixed in our country but I don't know if there's anything specifically Christian about it except that Christians organize as the church will have their awareness attune to the needs of their community because that's what Jesus people do and then they'll find themselves call to go and do that I don't know if I'm answering your question what would you say this is probably you probably don't want to say or you don't you can say pass yeah would there be a time when the church organizes around something what we would deem as Americans political using their power influence well when it's gotten so bad isn't that the point of being an American oh is it like anybody who wants to but those who are governed like if we don't agree with those who are governing us we gather together to generate influence from the people to get elected and selamat I think that's I don't know isn't that just being an American oh yeah I asked you any question that's what yeah okay now yeah um yeah no I'm joking yeah yeah yeah you're up about here this is important it's incredible I didn't I didn't listen for the reading but I should James Davidson Hunter to change the world it's a hard book to read it's often boring but it really changed my mind not a lot of eggs and he said this it's a survey of Christian political movements in the last 50 years or so and essentially his point is when Christians primarily throw their organization into efforts that aren't the mission of a local church that's okay that they do that but often oftentimes our vote becomes a substitute for actually getting personally engaged in my own community through my local church and I was deeply convicted for me is it somehow because all in over November a so just a day but I have a whole life that lives in a city full of relationships and people and I have people in my neighborhood and if I abdicate my responsibilities simply by putting filling out that piece of paper then I think I've I'm not following Jesus and the way the kingdom works primarily Jesus Kingdom is through the church which is embodied in a city with needs and all that kind of things so that's for the good there you go yeah that's great yeah one more up top oh so one with the roof you smile honest face so we're really excited okay he's getting it oh wait what okay right here I'm a really nice guy to you yeah you look like an IT guy what great you love you right now what is one of those times in scripture where we see God expressing through his servants and others specific very pointed disdain for sin and corruption as an example the the Hittites the Canaanites in the Old Testament are they're modern corollaries to child sacrifice things like idolatry for example where we would where we could organize around and and what do you what do you think of the I mean in the Old Testament you were talking through several examples but none where you know the Israelites we're carrying out God's justice by literally destroying yeah like where they became God's servant exactly uh yeah any other model correlate or should we view this in such a way so um are you asking the question is no we shouldn't go kill people because they're bad maybe you can't but maybe not just for question but maybe more like are there things we should oppose because God views it as such testable yeah yeah I think that's the role of prophetic critique that's Daniel walking up to the king of Babylon and saying you are unjust God's going to take you down you're accountable to a greater authority and if you're going to kill me for saying that then please go ahead but you're not actually in authority over me but I'm going to submit to you and love you it's the paradox it's that paradox that Paul did is that thing so absolutely I think God's people are called to a form of prophetic critique that goes right through it goes right through the history of Israel God brings them into the land and they immediately become like the Canaanites that they dispossessed and so God's having none of it he doesn't play favorites he raises up profits to critique them they don't listen and so he brings another servant Babylon and then that whole thing goes so yeah absolutely the part of the but part of the power of the church's prophetic critique is that it uses the upside down power system of Jesus's kingdom and so I think that's where that is the same today issues that question right there the power comes from actually not using the traditional means of force and violence but still launching the powerful critique and I think that's a unique very difficult road that Jesus called his disciples to it makes me think of that time when he said following him is like carrying your own execution rack and I think he meant it speaking truth to power to use a set cache line is dangerous but it's often the calling of God's people in our world and it's very important thing to do everyone thank Tim for being here thank you [Music]

Channel: Tim Mackie Archives

Views: 204,788

Rating: 4.7768025 out of 5

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Id: wXcSJVW8rg4

Length: 92min 53sec (5573 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 14 2017