KEVIN LANE - The UK's MR Shawshank (Last Interview Before Recall)

Mr shank his name is Kevin Lane put a rope around someone's neck when you get him out the motor they walk like a dog like on the H legs you're going to shoot me kill me cuz I will be coming back and I did get shot and I did go back put him under my car I run him over a few times and how would you kidnap somebody I'd watch you and I'll take you if you br some you can still hear him screaming the Gaff tape I went w up there's your fun teeth spay him a CS G and wed my picture was in the police station please don't tell me their friend Ding and he's sitting there looking at me and he's going to what you done I said I got to take your first answer and I said this ain't a game show you honor I'll lit you that many times you'll think you're surrounded Now give me that puff he ended up in healthcare with 17 stitches in his head well one for each day I'm sitting there he's doing this to me in a dock right put me on the main Landing it said Lane drinks manage him we was in negotiation they killed a gears called Dave King in Hartford sh with an AK-47 used to do a bit of security for the firm don't actually like violence I'm just I was just pretty good at it when you keep going on like that M we have to go outs Sil I want to say big thanks to all their sponsors we love you and without you we won't be able to make this amazing show big thank you to Dr Green nft for being one of their sponsors of the show so the Dr Green nft project is coming out of Portugal and it's going to revolutionize the way that medical is transacted and distributed throughout the world thank you so much to Unis systems Freight UK it's amazing Freight forwarding company if you've got anything you need sending overseas make sure you get in touch with the Unis systems Freight boys if you want to learn any more about any of our amazing sponsors make sure you check out the links in the description below welcome back to the criminal connection podcast my name is Terry Stone and today we're joined with Mr shank his name is Kevin Lane um if you haven't heard of him you must be deaf and if you haven't read about him you must be blind so um Kevin Lane Welcome to the than for coming thank you I know there's all you know normally every uh podcast I've seen with you um it normally just says Hitman uh Contract Killer but I actually thought Mr sha shank has just got a cool [ __ ] ring to it the first ones really said that I think well well I like to be first so so what happened where did that come from the MR shank Duncan Campbell and uh the guardian right so I wrote 10,000 letters whilst I was in prison um in relation to getting out from fighting my case I was wrongfully convicted um and they said to me do you want a TV now I said no I don't and I just wrote letters and well I typed letters in the end I had the old olivetti to begin with I went from the olivetti to a like a word processor and then that was it really the campaign started from there the war office in Mel wow and that's that's where Mr sha shank so sh shank came it won't just let us so I would do an A to Z and you enclosure one en closure to um and I was learned the legal speak which is quite a difficult thing to learn you know it's a different languages into what we're speaking now um and I was taught that by Robbie Harden very dear friend of mine we Irish man um he taught me the legal speak as well as selftaught from reading all the paperwork and off it went so to have a DVD of news bulletins i' send that with enclosures uh and anything I thought was in particular of interest to someone like yourself right uh and it went from there really going back obviously from from where you know right to the beginning um where where was you actually bought up was you was you sort of around Watford area or hairfield middle sex near it okay so I got I was born in a place called hairfield Village nice Village lots of pubs most po like in the summer lots of not tourists but Pub callers um um family of seven got a step brother I don't see him because my dad Remar and he's dead now my dad but um little brother called Liam Cooper so if you're out there get in touch CU I'd love to see you um mom was obviously single I I was working when I was a kid young kid that was that's where I came from herfield yeah I mean what was it like gr out over there I mean did rough as [ __ ] right beautiful but lot of Travelers in the time people taking their tops off a fight the hardest man in here and all that old [ __ ] I didn't get involved in none of that at all none of it I was boxing as a kid um what what made you pick start boxing then was was it just because you wanted to learn to put your hands out or did you do it for self-defense or just because you wanted to my brother really he used to have to wear Mr Mur crash helmet he got run over by a bus nearly died he's got load of plates not he's got run out from the back of a bus and then he was nearly died like I say his helicopter lifted to hospital on that so when he came back to school when he had the crash helmet on we was I was in the infants as he was was only kids like I say babies um and I came out of class you used to get milk in the mornings didn't you remember that milk milk bottles so we got milk bottles yeah no but I didn't use that but I've come out after the milk in the in the playground and I've come around the corner of the building my brother was getting AG off some of the kids for the crash helmet and it just went from there really I just [ __ ] r two of them in and then I from there it's more like heartfelt you know if you see your brother to if you brother sister I think the problem is um and obviously a lot of people that are listening or watching to this podcast obviously now is a different time you know people are a little bit more sensitive to um uh what they say and what they do to people you know but when we grew up you know if you wasn't the right color or you were a different religion or you were you had a disability or you had anything that people could tell piss out of them and even if you didn't you had the piss taken at you like was relentless you know a knitted jumping your mom you cuz you can't affording decent clothes but I I used to get the song they used to sing to me was uh Terry goes to tesos where he buys his best clothes that was what that was s to me you know and uh I see called Star Ski and UT mom me jump was like Star Ski and UT big [ __ ] Cardigans with belts and Butters but lovely get you warm yeah but that but that you know but people watching this you know lots of people wouldn't find that remotely funny but obviously back then it was oh look there G of a helmet let's take the piss out of him uh do you know what I mean so it started from there and then my brother he then's trying to prove himself a lot which is he took care of matters himself you know business himself when he got older but as a kid he had that chip on his block where well listen I'm I ain't got a crash on it no more so then he moved in with some traveler boys 15 14 hanging around with him the tops coming off uh so then the lads will say oh your brothers had it again Kevin [ __ ] hell you know so I I say just and it just goes from there Terry don't it you know and uh then I was 18 and I was asked to work uh license premises on the door by family in uh West London well-known family um and then by time I was 20 me own security firm 120 BLS working for me and I was 20 you know and that's in the day when you had Dorman you needed po dman yeahman yeah and so there was no SI badges there no no but it started coming in though in about 1986 or something like that and I I'd had the company in 88 I can't remember now but um so then I added that company to take me into camera security so but it was a stepping stone for me not to do doors so I wasn't into the I want the clubs and all the rest of it but the next thing you know 12 pubs six clubs fulltime was that all in West London all over London right right right all over London even down to home counties and that and then you got your emergency pubs who have had a kickoff the night before I had contracts with um Taylor Walker a few other pubs fulltime so i b in a system where if I had Dorman located in say Ascot who lived there I'd contact the pubs and there say look you pay me 50 a week I can guarantee I can get Mentor you within half an hour of you phoning me but you haven't got to pay for security every week but you got a phone call where you can have Dorman so it weren't like the strong arming it was professional and Brewers were paying me that well people W people want to know if there's a [ __ ] problem they could pick the fan up and normally like I I remember because my boy's gone into promoting events and he uh he he we went to one of his events like in the early days when he was 19 just sham some support and it went off and the D ran away and and and and you just sort of and and I remember my M actually said to me she said said uh she said I can't believe it don't run away she said that would never happened in your day would it I said no there's no F chance chance when I never run when I got all that guns pointed at me and I've been shot I still never run I [ __ ] shoot me then better kill me but you better shoot me if you going shoot me kill me cuz I will be coming back and I did get shot and I did go back but I'm not talking about that on camera but you've got to be careful who you shoot right because you know some people do come back some people don't yeah that's right yeah you shoot me will come back I'm not saying I will I don't care who I shoot cuz I've never well you know I'm innocent for the murder they set me up for but um yeah you got to be careful who shoot nowadays yeah yeah and make sure there's no CCTV everywhere it yeah um but going back to um obviously you know you you're at school um obviously you've doing the boxing you've act to obviously like um steping def your brother your brother's growing up like you said he's gone got got got him with his Travelers and you've obviously gone off and and started doing door work you built this great security company um and and then when when would you say I mean look when I was doing events and and we had air security to place the clap security because normally the clap security were letting people in they were doing things doing so we' always pleased them and obviously they looked after me and the panners so that's why we had our own sort of team but um when when uh when you was doing it obviously just from a security company perspective um you know obviously lots of people know the club scene the bar scene there's drugs there's you know criminal things going on um Did you sort of when you was doing a door like you said you offered that service page your go service yeah um done well yeah did you find did you find that you sort of fell into ITC because of that or or or you know was you was you more sort of on the sort of violent side so that if if there was a problem then you deal with it if your people could deal with it I mean I tell you what like I said I I bought the company for five grand the company name only 18 you know it was Total Security that was my name it was before that was called Associated consultants and that was all the pel family and Pat pel Eddie pel Tom pel they name load of Brothers actually and um back in their day I mean Pat was going to fight Lenny mlan back in his day but he used to be a merchant Sean and get off the ports and fight people oh yeah they all mad that a big man you know who's very agile could fight but he's not he's not into that but all he could he wasn't that type of man per got it so I got the company from them um and then changed it to Total Security um and then the lads went off you had like Atlas security he was doing I remember them yeah Darren Smith and you know all those so top guard and that and that's the time I had my company as well I was just a young boy and it took me into areas I didn't want to go into because I'd I'd called meetings on with the lads and they' be like 24 [ __ ] Stone and there's me 11 stone 7 boxing and all I said now look listen this is a business these are our customers they we've got to look after them we're not here to bash them up wrap them up and Chuck them out if they it you restrain them why don't you giving them good IDs because if you lose me a contract on a pub that gives me £250 a week in my pocket over the year that's 12 Grand if I take 12 grand out of your pocket you ain't going to be happy well I ain't going to be happy if you take 12 Grand off of me so and we had a good working relationship I'd never had one Nick on my firm not one and the boys sometimes got get stuck in it they like they do [ __ ] out to defend yourself because you can't wrap up everybody can you yeah you just got to give them as good as they're giving you b a great company and then uh I had enough of it actually I handed it over to someone and uh I parked it up cuz the camera security took off I got banged up look where the camera security is now so I it's way before my time yeah so so that when you first got banged up was that for the for for for the for the murder F that was that's kidnapping that for kidnapp I took I mean I'm going to do Channel 4 cently in in talks with me about doing one called restorative justice I kidnapped a kid and just to bring not shame on me but the kid I kidnapped wasn't the kid who was told did what someone else did but for his sake when I've been on camera I said I kidnapped the wrong fellow to make myself look stupid really you know but I didn't kidnap the wrong fellow Rob here works with you youve turned around and said Rob did what he did all right so I go and take Rob away he a bad man bad man get a boot of my car so what happened was these Lads nicked some equipment off of a fellow on new and they went to the police they didn't have enough evidence The Lads were part of a football firm they went to the offices where my palad his offices they locked all the doors and that and they're shaking the doors but they went to a girl who was pregnant and they put a knife to her belly and a knife to her face we cut you and we cut the baby so then I got a call they sound like nice people that you'd invite R for C lovely people well you might understand now why what I did what I did got a little bit upset yeah I did I went down there I held everybody in the in the office is hostage this kid turned up for work was a kid I mean he my age bit older stocky then he's not stocking now bless him will he was put forward as a kid that did it by his colleagues the ones that actually did do it so I took him away that was nice for him would it to throw him under the bus he was a roof to you know yeah throw him under the bus badly cuz I put him under my car I run him over a few times and [ __ ] you know I I I was just enig that you've put a knife to a woman and a baby and you're going to cut them you're going to get it so I ran him over quite a few times I don't think anybody watching or listening to his podcast podcast is going to feel any sympathy towards that person obviously the fact that he didn't do it but the fact if he had have done it I think people would have been probably giving you a round of applause they did I mean the know Bill I got a two-year sentence for that which the jury came back and said they made a wrong decision get the just said you're Vigilant you took the law into your own hands I got two years two years and two years I wish you'd have told me you it could have been Kevin Lane the UK's Charles bonson listen I never going to be that Charlie bonson but no but not bonson you remember yeah call him would mind being him so what I did to the fell like I said I took him to a recluse so so how how would you kidnap some would you literally I'd watch her you watch her I'd find out where your movements are everyone's got habits it's easy people have they're very habitual people so I'd watch her uh and i' i' i' take you how would you that would because there a guy in America who done a lot of stuff for the mob and I've read his book and he did things like this but he didn't actually kid me he killed him but one of the things he did was he he' observed people and then he would literally see the car and then see he know that You' gone in some you going to come out so then he go and put a knife in the tire the tire be flat when they come out look at the tire he just be b i kidnapped another gee I've kidnapped a few people over the years oh he put a gun to someone actually went around someone's else that was a woman a woman opened the door of a baby in her arms I mean you couldn't make that up could you literally she opened the door of a baby in the arms and he went around with a gun to her and a saw off he went round so I took him away but I punched at his wheels for him so he couldn't drive and he come walking out I've jumped out on him took him away um you watch people learn their habits where their movements and then take them so so so when you put him in the boat I think you put me yeah in the boat normally did you put a little carpet in there and little p bar over the head I zip tie them I put a rope around their neck right right let me tell you something about you put a rope around someone's neck when you get them out of the motor they walk like a dog where you've grabed someone on the arms they bit turn to struggle you get on the hind legs or they you get the Rope neck you [ __ ] stick it straight up there so it's tight and you you're coming with me and you've got them [ __ ] zip tied anyway and don't worry about cuffs zip ties everyone uses zip ties and uh they go is that the kidnappers uh Choice my preference of choice must TI them down the woods normally right always the woods in the middle of the woods mad best Woods in R if they was from that area or that will took him to reading Woods I suppose the woods it's sort of you know anyone who's watched any films whether it's The Sopranos whether it's RIS of the foot soldier whether it is when you go to Woods you probably ain't coming back right so there's that whole they come back them people but they're worried like when they're they're GA gaff and they're tied to a tree spread eagled and you're going to work on them that's pretty gruesome for them so but you obviously even when there when you break someone's legs not saying that I did but but if you broke some if you broke someone you can still hear them scream when the gaffet taped like you've just done loud but in the middle of the woods no one can hear you yeah no one so I suppose that it's better than tap to a soundproof room then is it better there's only be blood spilled it's on the walls you blood spilled in the in the woods it gets washed away yeah you know what once you've dished out your whatever you think is is is that what they deserve what happens then you you take the Gaff tape off IOP at the hospital all right so you don't actually have a conversation you don't actually say this is why they know why yeah I don't talk [ __ ] right I want to keep their mouth shut I don't to say nothing I'll get them out of the boot or out the back of the there's blood everywhere normally cuz I mean there's been some terrible incidents but you are a gentleman because most people just Le Ling was the fact you actually put can't typ to the hospital the hospital drop them off they can't a normally walk or get somewhere I laugh about it now but these are [ __ ] by the way these ain't decent people these are the people that if you lived in an area you get an old lady say oh he's a nasty bastard that fell couldn't have at to whole a better person you know so the police can't protect everybody more so today so they pick the phone up and they go oh this is such such has done that nothing will happen well it will happen in my day when you call me cuz I will come straight through your front door like AR Enfield it's only me with a sledgehammer I'll get you in bed before you get out of it can you do for K it's only me Smash with a door opener with a sledgehammer I got a door opener here and I'd go straight through and I'd get you in my day and I was only 11 stone 7 it [ __ ] shock the people when you get them and you're leaning over them in bed how you get in yeah when you well either way when that door goes but I'd always go and have a look at the door some sometimes to make sure ain't one of them is going right in and you can't get through like the old bill and then you think we're not going to get him in bed there we get him when he comes out so you're Mr short shank you're you're you're obviously Charles bonson but the deathfish version but ALS but but you also so like a crime stopping service really because you're actually stopping these people that are I mean you know putting guns sh off shotguns to women's faces and slashing people threatening with knives and stuff I never anybody didn't deserve it well I did a couple of people will will Gil foil and another fellow I took away once because I needed to know where someone was he hadn't done anything wrong and I apologized to him he's going to get a big bag of cash off of me at some point um it will happen in the next year probably a big bag of cash off of me because uh I don't even care if he's if he's affluent now but he's owed a lot of money off of me for what I did to him and I'm going to apologize to him face to face I've never gone near him since cuz I didn't want to cause him any concern but the next time I see him I there's a big bag of cash and I'm so sorry I did to you and that's two will and this fell all the others always deserved it but I think you know it takes a a big man to actually be a to do that most people would just brush it under the carpet and say forget about that shame Terry really but the fact you actually want to want to make amends and say sorry and do the right thing you 20 years to think about it and I'm I think God what did I so like You' F me up to and you'd have a daughter and the boyfriend not you per se but as a as you know what I mean so I've got a daughter she's nine so if she's G out of any NY olds they treat her badly I might not need your services I'll be right don't do that to my daughter again you would phone me up and you go my daughter's just had her front teeth knocked out Kevin by her boyfriend he's a bit of a big lump and he's done it I said where he give me his address I'll go around open the door knock his teeth out right Instant Karma that's what happened one day G went w up there's your font teeth sping m g and walked off right and things like that so that's the type of thing I used to do I didn't feel like I was doing any Injustice and how old was you then was this when you in yours yeah but I had trouble I had me own flat when I was 15 uh I sharing with another Palam mine I moved out of home I bought my first house first flat when I was 18 bought one so I was doing all right as money cuz I'm a go me yeah uh the violent side of it just come just come along you know and I always thought you I'm not an aggressive person but I could turn my hand to it and I think that came from nature and nurture bit of both right I thought having that in doing that at school they say oh I can leave them girls alone stop [ __ ] you know and I just it went from my brother to other areas uh You' been you've been so so I suppose really a good way of describing you would be that you actually champion and defend the weak and I did in the day yeah yeah I did in the day or people not people that are weak but people that that can't you know if you're not from that world you're not going to be able to deal with it you know someone walks around your house with a shotgun you're not going to go right I know what to do with most people never had that happen to him so yeah they not a lot of people but in the day that's what it was like and then um you know it's mad really because people meet me and they go co you never think would you we expect you to be 6'4 or you didn't expect you be so happy and so friendly and you're not aggressive at all I well no I don't actually like violence I'm just I was just pretty good at it I know I don't mean that like I was pretty good it it's a funny thing to say I mean that I did a podcast with uh Leo leis Raymond T and it says the nicest convicted Contract Killer you ever meet that's mad isn't it so you know anyway that's but did you but most of these things I take it were unpaid you didn't nobody obviously did paid work but most of it was literally people would reach out to you if they got a problem and you never paid never ever paid never ever paid simple as that uh yeah all grudges that I had with someone AE someone put their hand on my miss my the mother of my children one all right just moved her out the way and to me that was a no youing touched my old woman I was ramming him in the I Street the next day on a car how you like it how you like it and I know the fellow is a good friend of mine I but yeah at that time he was kid from another area uh they said about that better but he left the country he didn't come back for a while and I took his mate away to find out where he was so that yeah I laugh about now good thank God a lot of times past yeah and we've grown up and matured eh I think when you when you sort of I'd say from 18 to 30 that is like a wild time you know what I mean I think at that time you nobody really gives a [ __ ] and you've got no responsibilities and you just sort of you know like you said if you get like this in your testosterone if you get swept up in it with the wrong people I tell you what I tell you there a lot people say oh just cuz you didn't have a dad I didn't have a dad as a kid I can tell you now my dad would have battered the life out of me if ID gone down that path wouldn't have had it simple as that you know like tell if my dad finds out he kill me well if my mom finds out she's going to punch me well ain't my dad but my mom will go nuts so but your dad wasn't around when you grew up no um did you ever get reconnected with him or not or he died when I I I did on he did and I was about 20 21 and then I went to prison for a kidnapping and then my dad died whilst I was in prison so didn't know right W yeah so shame really my dad was an alcoholic he splatter with my mom turned to drink uh and then died as a result yeah how old was your dad when he died 47 mine was 56 and he's same thing like on on the booze and maybe it was something in the in that sort of late 60s early 70s people were boozers weren't they everyone drunk that's Scottish right okay [ __ ] me goes in don't it on the old leeding boo so my dad was Scottish but people like listening and watching this podcast won't remember this right and they probably won't even know but you could get pissed out your head and drive there was no drink Drive loss right and the L bill would pull you over and go if you had a drink yeah Drive slowly and get home they' been n this like breing you take your license away we like you get party sevens well I didn't start drinking really until I was 21 but uh the party seven days and exactly what you said leave the car here or the drive a bit slower than that we had a little Bobby in the V Village we had a little police station which is like a little portal cabin um but we used have SPG Vans Park in the village on a Friday and Saturday night for the turnouts of the pubs the fighting God it's terrible um funny so I all that was a fighting man's Village I remember going up I a flat and that but I was working by the time I was 15 I had my own flat I was working in a chip shop and Sunday laws came into operation didn't they and Ian condom he's now dead God Rest his soul he was only 20 odd he had his first chip shop he put me in there to open on a Sunday so you're getting all the lads coming in drunk on a Sunday and I'm in there serving up chips all the lads in the village knew me and know don't start in here cuz like Kev might be only 15 but he will have a fight with you and if there's a few of you just get the fat out of the [ __ ] pan right and then I'll fight all you you can't beat this it [ __ ] did you look after your mates though if they come in they got they got a little uh five some scam me CHS and that but know IED I love Ian so much I work for I never steal from him never steal from him and I didn't take the piss what I did see you S at the end when it's left over yeah yeah and uh so if I'm if I'm loyal person me and I'm honorable so and I'm glad they that really I McDonald's and I was give my mates a few extra chips yeah that's a big corporate company is it if it was someone like your pal or someone you respected you ain't never going to do that are you but it was only a few extra chips it weren't like you were giving them an extra packet it was just like to yeah I never say you can have a piece of fish or you can have that I'll say at the end there'll be some left and you get it then yeah early shot Nails on a Sunday I loved it and all so when you did your first uh thing and and I mean did you think he was going to get two years or did you think he was going to get longer I got bailed cuz the police got caught out lying they changed the statement of the witness saying it looks like him but it's not him they said yeah it looks like him it's him when it came out he called one of the witnesses said the please phone me up at home uh said can you meet us at the end of the road and when we got in the back of the car showed Kevin's photograph told us his name was Kevin blah blah blah asked me to make a statement I got immediate bow I've been over with my mom for six months so why was that Kevin was it at the time would you sort of become a person of interest to the place Dave da well I'd had the security company by them uh and I'd have become I had by then yeah a person of interest simply because of you're young you know you had people talk and obviously if you've got security Camp you got 120 fellas working for you all of a sudden you're not running security Camp you got firm and you know then all a sudden it's like remember I got Nick he said uh security boss Kevin Lane I thought well hold on a minute I'm a kid really still I'm a young man um so that put me in the sky I used to wear suits then Terry sounds cool I've done a security boss yeah I know buddy but I had suits I wasn't I'm wearing jeans and out today that's CU I've been busy today I've been elsewhere but um I I liked suits I liked it I had enough money to buy suits as a young kid I could walk in a pub and buy everybody a drink it was do you know what though again for people that are watching listening to this um like in the 70s and the 80s like if you had a whistle you were a person that [ __ ] was having it you know what I mean it I didn't know anything about that too but but didn't but wasn't that why you bought suit cuz she thought actually I want to find at the bullets cuz it does make you feel I thought you me like with being a gangster don't no no no just like dressing up you got the tie you know the little tie clip the little hany yeah loved all of that I'd go down Burton by with my wages and stuff like that absolutely loved it so oh I wanted to get Burton but I had to get Mr B I could afford B can't you I take you to my Taylor mind you you have to buy 10 at a time of him and he's the number one Beast B Taylor in the world oh really yeah he goes 250 Grand to hire him to fly him out of the Saudi family wow he's he's proper like Den Lori is uh is I got two suits off him 25 Grand [ __ ] but there's only 15 suits in the world made out of the material that I've got so yeah what did you what did you go for was cashmir or was it something else don't even know I just know it was a nice suit someone actually said to me they had this beautiful suit on it was like a winter suit and and I said that's aing lovely suit and I touched it I went what is that made you said it was cashmir I was like live material is still live they don't think cuz it's come off an animal it's dead but the material can still become live so when you get C certain suits clean like those ones you got to have them done in a special dry cleaners that cost money um I wish I had done now cuz the batt of a mother of a pearl I'll put them in this dry clean and they chipped them all that that yeah so I only know this because my mate's a tayor and uh he said that if you ever take them always make sure they wrap the buttons otherwi they do geted up chipped I'm I still ain't got them CH changed cuz their mother rep PE thought I just I'll let them think it's style yeah anyway so let you asked me a question earlier about the kidnapping so right um did you ask me that what did you ask me so uh you tell me about you told me about how you do it and you told me about why you did it and and we were talking about the court thing so when you got yeah and we talking about being a person of interest with the police I was a person of interest so when my picture was in the police station and everyone I went to please don't tell me their friend Dar see it what they no done spitting at it prob Most Wanted well I've had a few I remember I got Nicks right for like another kidnapping and they said if Lane's there lame is there Nick him that my best mate so if I'm there he's going to be with him so we got Nick for kidnapped when he got bow and he got he got out but let me tell you a little story about him right he went to the court after he got B every day dressed in a different disguise one day he dressed as like a burglar black and white white jeans in cult come in the cult I was crying off the next day he went around a palom house called Blossom and Blossom had lots of gold and he came in with Mr t- rings on everything bracelets change and his hair all brushed back and by the third day he came in we're thinking what the [ __ ] he going to come in just like today so then on the third day he's coming over there brushed over a different way and dressed in a suit and that and of course you couldn't say if he matched the description of the offender could you cuz you look so different on three different days and the judge said we just like to thank Mr Li said for his uh entertainers with his dress got not guilty did you say him every time we getting it can you dress up listen he weren't there anyway but he got Nick for it the poor s so I remember I kidnapped another g once he told me a ringer I said just give me the money back you can have the car back and he tried to off out the country so I took his brother away and then uh he got Nick with me on that one and uh I remember going into the police station had a suit on right and he's sitting in the he's only in the the custody stre as I've gone in they must have got us both pretty much at the same time and he's sitting there looking at me and he's going to what you done now what are you done now he's G I laugh about it now but like he hadn't done that with me I just done you know do things on your own if you do things on your own you got no Witnesses no one to grash you up that's my mod that's your piece of advice for anybody listening or watching in this that's primly minded your own don't go to work with no one go on your own I always work on my own simple as that it's you don't need two people to take one one person away so that so that thing when you got when you got your uh when you got your case and and I take it from what you've said you kind of felt a little bit like you was getting fitted up on the on this kidnap thing when you got the two years I did yeah because cuz I didn't really recognize you and like you said they sort of spoke to them and said oh look is the guy it's exactly what they done and and and did your brief or or bar whatever not bring that up or he did right and what did they what was it I got bow immediately right and I went back to co I had two trials hung jewry I went back a second time um there had been a shoo in the night before I got guilty funny enough that was quite I mean I was anyway they thought that was me but uh hold on minute my tri for kidnapping why would I shoot someone I got banged up the next day for [ __ ] kidnapping so they left that on on file but when I went to um Court the jury had been in hotel the night before and it was really hot it was Oxford Crown Court I never forgot it sweating in the court it was that hot with the air conditioning on and they went out and they just I'm putting you into hotel now again for Friday night till Saturday they went out they came back in no time at all I was downstairs with with the barister we got called back up guilty we gone downstairs again to confirm with the barer call back up again the jury come back with a note said we've made a wrong decision [ __ ] hell the Jud said I got to take your first answer and I said this ain't a game show you hna I said to I a game show and he like you want and he's looked he a bit of B for off about him game so then some two birds were crying in the Jury Room in in the jury and was like shaking her head and some blocks were shaking her head and uh said we've made a wrong decision so he said look I know there's going to immediate bad application uh going to be obviously a retrial uh I went down said no don't bother I'm at be the two years uh I was expecting to get eight for what I done he went two two two and two to run concurrently i f in touch so so that in in plain English that meant you would you do a year I did I actually did a bit more cuz I did a 14 and a half or 15 and a half months I did in the end I didn't get much perole I had a bit of a dodgy time in prison at a few screws in it I mean when obviously that's the first time you went in prison yeah and um when you when you went in there I mean obviously probably knew some people in there but oh okay so you literally went in went to reading went to reading I ended up getting straight away you find your own level didn't you I remember walking into the holding tank there was a kid in there and he's going home now I was understanding my mate's done B and everything Marcus he's but his own man had recording studios all around the world famous and uh he just went his own way he real clever he went to score in Oxford and everything got expelled but um he done bold a lot right and he's going listen Kevin it's a different law in here mate he goes you can't perform in here like you perform outside what you all about so we're sitting in the olding tank these kids come he's going home he's got a bit of puff out I don't puff I didn't puff then like you know and he's rolling the puff and he's putting his pocket I said don't you meant to leave out for the lads mate I said all these blocks in here and he said no I'm not I'm taking home with me Mark my mate Markus he's looking at me he's going Kevin Kevin the BL walk out the olding tank to he's gone into another olding tank next door right and uh [ __ ] I'm out the chair and I've gone back into him I've gone around to and I've see you I says I'll lit you that many times you'll think you're surrounded Now give me that puff it's give me the puff I went back in I goes my mate puff oh there you go give it to him and the g was walking out the out the thing and cuz with the holding tank was down they weren't like floor level and he's going you [ __ ] W as he's gone I [ __ ] say you I'm going to do you oh yeah yeah about 17 days later or whatever long later it was he came back in it's a short period of time when he came back in but it was the 17 that's what got wrong he came back in a short period later and uh in no time at all mate he ended up in healthcare with 17 stitches in his head well one for each day [ __ ] wallet he went straight to he care and then went on the numbers and then the Geer that shot me uh his Cod came in and he went on the numbers and all right wow wanker so so well he ain't actually I don't I've got no grievances with him take that back in this happened before you went in jail for the kidnap yeah so what what happened about that then so one of the pubs I had the licenses to he follow me up say a g down here he's threaten to cut someone he's he has cut someone previously before he's barred from me uh can he get down there so I got down there I I always went I'd never send the lads on me own so I've gone down there and this car's pulled up and I'm talking to this Geer next to me and uh he you right to mate he's going you mate I I'm mate so he's in a mini he's a passenger and the driver The Other Side they're rumbling about and he's going to do you want some of this mate he's about 15 ft away something like that I said I want some of what he's going to sum of this so my two mates right they have like break dancing what are you going to do with that then I swear to God this is and listen and they take the piss out of me now my pals right and I said what you going to do that there mate I'm going to kill you I went going then W up bang as I've gone like was it a shotgun shotgun yeah so I've gone like that and I all blink the eyes I stars in the eyes I all this Blood pouring down my face I thought I'm alive and I've looked at him go again and he's gone like that again so then I thought well I'm not going to get shot again so I've G he's drove off took his mate got him in the car took him places with us got a few addresses to find out where this kid might be who actually did the shooting then the kid handed himself into the police now what he don't tell people was this he handed himself into the police and the gun they got the gun you got statements from landlords Witnesses naming him I go home I plug me head with cotton with holes gone out again going to find you so got mad I cut them off though but like you know stop the bleeding you know did stop the bleeding to a certain degree and then old Bill CU normally when you have a shotgun it blows theing hole on you was it like was it it went like that it spreads it so it was and he was 15t away yeah and other I've gone like that so you just got the right okay lucky really so I've still got seven bits of lead in the head in my skull so I've gone out we've had a they've swooped on my car nothing in the car um my mate was on [ __ ] curfew anyway so he had to get home um I've gone home 2:30 in the morning my house is up like a bleeding football pitch armed police took me away said hold on a minute i' I've been shot what the [ __ ] he said well taking you away took the hospital they're trying to pull the lead out of my head and all the rest of it so it comes to cwalk I said listen yeah I've been shot GE are pulled up shot me I don't know him I didn't know him so I couldn't name him if I did know him just to get that very clear here now you know and uh they told me it was who shot me I go well I don't know I didn't ID no one nothing like that comes to call I don't got a call get us uh summon not a summoned um subpoena by the judge if I don't turn up a C I'm going to prison I'll get there at half past 11 this by the point I I've been away for kidnapping by this and all and he's writing letter to me the fell from the prison this was why you was in jail yeah so I then get banged up for a kidnapping right over this period of time he then writes to me cuz he's on the mind on prison letters with his Prison number saying can't we sort this out one of us is going to die I didn't know it was you I'd shot he said I swear to this is a true fight he gets in the dock he goes not guilty regardless of all the letters he's got screws get in the dock and go he's bragging about the shooting blah blah blah he's written letters to Mr Lane blah blah blah blah blah he's told the court that I'm doing this to him outside the court so mellan out to be subpoena to get here so we know he weren't outside the court and the camera security said he weren't outside the cult and the personis officers say he won't outside the cult so I'm sitting there he's doing this to me in a dock right I'm I'm sitting there I said you see you I said I'm going to punch your head and I get my hands on you PL people might say it's a formal glassing but he already glass himself up you know I just wanted to tell him no I'm going to bash you up when I get my hands on you and believe me I am going to bash you up when I get my hands on you all right when I overturn this conviction that is I'm going to come and find you so um definitely going to find you um or we have a fight for Cher and give the money to Cherry that' be a good one wouldn't he but uh so he gets a guilty but they said to me I said no I said I don't recognize him I said no not all he weren't there he gets are not guilty but they thought but they were pushing for guilty oh the old Bill pushing with guilty yeah yeah but I mean never G he's H himself by the letters and all else you with me you can't write someone from prison on a prison letter admit to the murder and then going not guilty they offer the momental hospital actually he he turned that down and got a seven and then uh he shut his mouth recently he's going to all fight no one or no one yeah I say when I find you if I bump into you mate you better be ready uh I like bump into him one night when he's coming out somewhere and put a rope around his neck for little you're coming with me I'm only joking probation I'm only joking you got to have a laugh about these things now you have a laugh a you but that is mad though that he shot you and then he said oh I didn't realize it was you on a prison letter he don't he don't tell people that he had the gun and everything he don't tell them the full facts you know it is okay G me up I didn't fing Gass you up I got suben of the court and come there and told the court ask going to punch you every when I get me answering you cuz you're doing that to me in the dock that's the truth of the matter so I don't mind anyway you know no one's ever come forward and said that cuz if I'd done that in Year everybody would know I'd have done that wouldn't they exactly so it don't matter anyway I'm got to justify myself but that's other stories so we won't go into that right now that's mad so so then so then uh uh so then you you've obviously done I laugh Daddy I don't laugh no but just crazy but you you come out um obviously did your time you like you said you didn't get out on good behav she had a few like altercations in there um was that with just mainly with of screws or did you have screws few cons uh I I a screw put his face on the curry one day on the op plate waigh him in he said he's going to punch my face you talking to me about and just went crash crash I'll take it after that the the the the screws probably treated you a little bit differently they left me alone cuz it's l polite it's no problem he don't bother no one he's polite to us he don't you know seems to my prison record in prison I'll tell you what he said he said don't tell Lane black is white you got a problem if Lane said he's going to do something he will do it he ually it extreme violence he's good for the wing he's good for morale uh he don't suffer Falls easily um Lane drinks manage him so I was in negotiation with a home office so started to you're going to get this right I'm want to give you a few bits so Wayne aen notorious Wayne aen he took some members of North London uh some Lads over that way on their first bit of work now Tusan robber he'd have two bits of work work in the day and things like that right big bits of work and all armed and dangerous I made a film about him so Wayne it had our time in prison liquid CAU and all the rest of it so I go into the special secure unit in [ __ ] triple category a Wayne's in there right so they just had the big escape the arm shootout in there after the IRA boys Danny m [ __ ] Andy Russell leam M all the boys right all the officers in command so it's the most intense unit in Europe with 74 or 84 cameras in there you checked every 20 minutes in your cell you got two padlocks on the outside of your cell that got to be taken off and then it's got to be opened up by control from another room outside of the unit so way used to get 5 L of each down his box of shs right elasticated ones dressing down on and walk about so why they're searching this cells in and out of them all day long we'll be watching TV Camera there camera there Windows there watching us they'd come in the room every 20 minutes checking the bolts and bars we ain't moved the camera says we ain't moved they still come in and do that right yeah don't wor Wayne's keeping the booze War so I got pissed in the unit right and they how's he done that they got guns in here last time it's the most secure unit in Europe and he's got a booze down in there right so then when I came out the they couldn't control me un I was always in the the box which is a it's a Concrete box so it's it's like a concrete cell with no bed you got a little wooden on the floor I was naked in there for days and days and days losing track ofing time cuz day and time is shivering there's no heating or nothing like that and this makes you Mak you wear you down but I would never break I said you're not going to be me not going to be me and then the ended up said take come in with shields and crash helmets and all that put the get out but there was a right a lot of the screws to be fair I like them there's good screws [ __ ] thank God for the good in the job they're all imagine how hard it would be and um so when I came out the unit they said listen we we can't keep having the own secretary told what's the bell's going off when the bell goes off in the unit every spare officer on the other in the prison outside of the unit has got to come High taing over to you as quick as they can right and everybody's got to be banged up in the main prison so every time I'm kicking off or fighting with a muy everyone's banged up you're going on the visit no it's bang up Lane's fighting in the unit again get him out of the unit so they downgraded me put me on the main Landings they said Lane drinks manage him we was in negotiation and that's how come my party started right right in the said Lane's over the drink leave him alone and you could come to my party if you're dressed up and we'd have a white o shindy but you couldn't come if you weren't inv and I had the best parts with the best people John Tumi classic right uh I got some right good P of our drinks with Peter to Terry congan I could go on to Teddy Avis a Betson the DME robber uh Teddy listen I could go on all day Malcolm hry right good people Martin Valentine proper good in way they all wanted to P you up cuz they want to come to the party right one of were mates to you know like you right your mates didn't you then he like I want to be his mate I want to come to the party you won't get in unless you was proper as simple as that I wouldn't have any other Tom Dio in and I won't have anybody in there cause trouble on booze cuz then it [ __ ] it for me I never had one bit of trouble on booze in 20 years in prison it's only Kevin he's all right everyone bangs up I remember Christmas Day a screw come down he he shouldn't be on the landing it's Christmas Day I was the only one in the prison system to have booze on Christmas they they used to have a national lockdown and they never found my Boos never all right and I've told a few people I did it now but they never found it and they could never work out how come so from Christmas day right way through to New Year's I had booze and I drop you around the bottle you go touch so we used to go on the piss so when so when you come out from from your first uh thing what was your next thing did you just I take it somebody was running security firm for you when you was I got rid of it I said I'll give it to my mate so you can have it I want nothing more to do with it and then when you got out what did you what did you do after that was you I came out I set up a yard doing rubbish I knew that rubbish was the way forward in 1991 92 where there's mck there's money you know then you're recycling right now look where it is yeah so I set a yard up rented it all out kept an aircraft hanger for me I had a rave in there I had four Raves actually did all right uh judge julge Danny ramping Roy thees and all those boys uh good rais good money and then I split up with the old woman [ __ ] off to ten Reef bumped into John Palmer's God Rest his soul John I know John but I bumped into his eie I had a ra of him out there in tene that caused murders but the the misses and kids out to come back to England um because I split of her she come out to turn a reef in with the kids we've actually developed a movie about John Palmer have you yeah yeah cuz I thought that such a great story [ __ ] great John a lot of things happened with John just you know to weren't aware of like he got the bird for the time shares because if you're the CEO of the company you're responsible that's why he got the bird but he offered 17 people that wouldn't take their money back and he offered them all their money back but he went to prison for that and but when I went to Spain I fell out of his Evie and his Evie was a great big lump [ __ ] big bowel chest great big arms and he threatened me was that the middle Easter fellow no it weren't it's Tony's Fell's name was um it weren't the other one Dennis knew he's dead now Dennis knew he was running there but Tony had just come out of prison for counterfeit money he scouted his Tony and I'd been there's some drugs being mentioned in I was living on the uh g d sir and my in a steakhouse I was having a meal with the kids and the misses and the the staff was talking about drugs I said wa what's going on here he said [ __ ] sir I'm playing to the manager and this big Tony came over with a fell called Eric brist as it happens he was tall like but not that one you have his DS with him or not yeah yeah on a phone of him actually so I'm kicking off about this a it's not good enough I said talking about drugs and around you know kids and that um and this big Tony said you want to calm down mate I got [ __ ] to do with you you want to stay out of it I looked it like that I was like 11 stone seven I just i' like I just smart you know can't what you we now uh 14 yeah cuz you don't look 11 stone 7 now no I'm 14 Stone now about 13 12 I suppose something like that I'm kinding a little bit cuz i't trained for well I have trained a little bit but not a lot Christmas on the piss and that but I'm normally pretty stripped so he's looked at me and then uh when you keep going on like that M we have to go outside no problem he said I went crash crash [ __ ] when they weighed him in and then They Carried him out and then next i' got the whole John Palmer's firm looking for me she's come back to England I've gone on a meet I said what tell him we'll have it again how do he want to have it he's said he can't he's in [ __ ] hospital he's got to go back to England convalescence but when he was being carried out he said when I come out I'm going to kill you look H I come away from England to get away from all this so she came back to England I stayed out there for week it does sound like it follows you around mate it does follow because I look I used to look young and I used to look armless and then they go where did that come from he can actually hold his hands up quite well and uh he ain't fighting it I fight one or I'll fight 11 BLS but I'll come back for all of you when I get a good iding it's only happened to me twice and I went back and got them um and I had a good good account of myself anyway before they' got give me a good iding they weren't like beating me on the floor someone had to stop me keep getting up and fighting got me in the car and took me home that was on one in inent but um and that was nothing to do with me you know I was only getting a burger they started on my brother they started on my brother cuz they thought he was someone else and next thing it's off so yeah I was giving a digress there anyway we digress but he was in yes so he was in tenor and then that that all got sorted out I went on a meet he came back to England I thought I'm not standing out here for this [ __ ] the Guardia police come to look for me machine guns they called him off the road and the go sir I drive through the according with the misses and the two kids was looking for a single blow weren't they not a bloke with two kids did you I say did you have some like Harry Potter glasses oh listen I definitely changed where I looked I blood all over me I was washing myself in the pool outside to get the blood off me I thought You' got one them t-shirts I love ten no I don't love it no more and then I bleeding I've gone through the Cordon I they have to stay in different addresses they were looking for me I'm looking for for them um and that was it really I came back I had to get a false ID to come out just a exit Visa come back to England I thought I'm going to get arrested at the airport and then I came back to England I went and then got Nick for the murder cuz that's obviously what made you you know everybody sort of knows about that story so so so what actually happened then because because obviously um you know I've heard you talk about it but I mean obviously you know for people that maybe don't know the story I know you've written this book fitted out and fight back um if you haven't seen it or we well you may have seen it but you might not have read it so if you've seen it and you haven't read it buy it where where can I get it you can only get that on Amazon in a minute I'm just I'm going to be a product soon so uh the the the company are going to be looking after me look after three companies three governments around the world in their media and they're getting the books printed in China now so uh so you have Chinese as well Chinese and all well I sell it around the world on Amazon amazing but Amazon do order to print water stones do but we're out of stock NOW like 2,000 books are gone wow um 4.5 in Amazon but that's where you can get it from Amazon okay so that's where you need to go to get uh the the fitted up and fighting back fighting back um but but what actually happened then on on the on on that thing because you've always come back from tenner reef and then did you just literally get picked up or no I came back from Turner Reef uh September the murder happened in October uh two fellows committed the murder I can't mention their names no more cuz they say I'm in danger in their life for being superg glasses okay but they now been ostracized in prison pretty much a lot uh it's come out obviously the book's out that book's been out two years and there's been no black orders on it because it's all from documentation that I've obtained through through Criminal Justice System got it by agenes so without naming their names basically that that they they did it basically they did it they got don't know if they did it or I weren't there but the evidence says they did it people said they did it um they showing off guns in pubs did they say they did it or not yes they okay so basically there's reasonable proof that there was going around the pub telling themselves there was Ronnie and Reggie showing off the gun saying they did it one of them got slapped by the deceased sister-in-law two weeks before the murder they had the deceased niece living with them and they was arguing over that um and there's a number of other factors that are in the book which is factual having police visits up and down the country and they discussed theyve the confidential chats are in the book where one of them says I want to discuss a deal with the police where my charges are dropped and I will give information about this murder and a number of other murders that Kevin Lane committed lovely so as soon as he turned around and said that they go oh lovely they're unsolved murders with what we clean the books up here as they do yeah they had their charges one was released uh and then one was kept in prisons up and down the country having police visits I didn't know at the time but the IRA boy said your Cod is know good Kevin I said I don't [ __ ] know him I don't know what I'm doing here I said I don't know why he ain't here with me then and they said he should be with you here now Kevin not being kept up and down the country why are they moving them around Kev Kevin it's not right and then years later I get his confidential chats where he says I want to assist the police with this inquiry I'll tell him about other murders how he did it and how much was paid wow wow and to them they think we've won the lottery year now and then of course it's in the book like he Ral F used to look after the quns this my Cod Defender had Ralph F cissa Ralph F cissa used to look after Kenny Collins hat and garden burglar yeah me and Kenny are good pals Kenny told me he said Ralph arm told me on a visit that the deal had been done that you was going to prison and your Cod was getting out halfway submissions he said I couldn't come back and tell you that at the time cuz you you know you thought you might have a chance I come back and told you that your Cod was getting acquitted according to my my solicitor I thought oh [ __ ] great then I've got said I couldn't tell you you the deal had been done he said just in case you know you probably would I mean in hset would you prefer he just [ __ ] told you yeah cuz IID have weighed in my cod in the doctrines i' seen him right and I'd have asked questions why w't I getting the evidence there seems to be evidence in this is missing um but but the but what was the murder actually over what why did they kill him I don't know all right so they he was a face right okay got it so it was a gang thing gang look he his mom got slapped by the sister-in-law of the uh the gentleman who got killed uh two weeks before cuz they took her daughter in so there's a few got it uh I don't know if that's why he got killed but he was uh facing the are was used to becoming partners with you if you wanted to in your businesses and so on and so so he wasn't so it wasn't just like some innocent guy walking down the road that got murdered for no reason tough cookie right he could have a rail he was a very capable man um but that's that's all in the book now so he got murdered Robert McGill um and then i' I've took the fall for it and and then when they nicked you was it just that murder or was there other murders okay so so they basically said oh we got all these murders um you know that you've allegedly B at me W if we have cleaned up here now that's unsolved that's unsolved there was three police forces waiting to Doc arrest me if I got not guilty how about that and then since I got recalled to prison I found out that I was recalled wrongfully the probation officers were falsely reporting on me so this so so after you've done your life sentence and you come out they've got you back in again got me back in after four and a half years of being out falsely reported on me and when I was in there is investigating me for another murder interviewing people now I know the person that was chased or I believe I know a lot of people believe they know who was chased from the scene of the murder two weeks before the murder he don't look like me but the ID fits the the the CD fits from the witnesses they're identical to the person that was chased away from that scene and he don't look like me I can assure you but they're now trying to say that was me well Fu can hold on a minute I don't even look like the [ __ ] fellow who committed the murder but in the eyes of the old bill they got ways of manipulating the evidence cleverly chosen words or coercing but the fact that this guy made his allegations and said that you done these murders is that what put you away yes absolutely there wasn't there was no actual evidence it was just him saying it was you and that was it that was I didn't get arrested due to the evidence of the case all right so the fellow got caught a car used it used that was duplicated there was a car that was loan to me I had my car stolen off of my drive I was then loan the car the car that I was loaned was copied and that was used at the scene got it but in the meantime of a registration it brought the old bill to me understand that so so it was literally like oh the the the the guy saying it's you the car so it all sort of and then they built a case around me and the evidence that came around came about after I was arrested not before so all the evidence that was in the police hands prior to me being put up for it for instance you get caught with a car that was used supposedly used in the murder you tell the police that the other two people who I'm not allowed to mention no more gave you that car and ask you to burn it as well as you those two people showing guns off in the pub and admitting to doing the murder and a number of other factors which I won't go into now cuz it's in the book but all that evidence was suppressed as well as the police visits and uh a lot lot more like I say that's in there and that's now going to be part of my uh CCRC application what it says c what does that mean criminal cases review commission right so I've just been granted legal aid based on a number of factors Panorama they did some in some so did they actually do a a a show about you on Panorama right wow yeah and what they did was the jury were told that gripped a gun inside a bag and that the gun was a mosberg pump action and the deceased was killed with a mosberg pump action and the inside the bag was nitroglycerin which is a firearm particle and it was either a used ammunition or a used gun that been in the bag and I'm sitting there thinking I have not gripped a gun in a bag I know they are lying so on the phone to my mom I've gone Mom listen I'm getting a guilty here because this is all bollocks what's going on here and at the time I didn't know about my C- defendant's confident chat I'm thinking what's going on here it just doesn't make sense so I've lost my P thought there so that's it so Panorama did a test on the on this gun they said absolute rubbish but if you're in the jewelry and you're told that I've gripped a gun as I've just told you in a bag you go okay it's Dam yeah but it's daming for me they're thinking well he's gripped a gun in a bag that's found in the boot of a car connected to the murder and it's a Mossberg pump action the same time gun that the decease was killed with it was daming for me right now Panorama turn around and said absolute rubbish should never have been used and the gentleman who gave evidence for the crown wasn't even qualified to do so wow fitted me up got me a guilty and then course them all two [ __ ] walk free wow and then went on to commit another murder and now they're flying through the prison system at a great pace and kns they got recommended sentences 30s and 25s wow he killed a gears called Dave King in hartfordshire with an AK-47 why do I know that name he used to look after of course you know right used to do a bit of security for the firm right right Dave King anyway and he fell out of a few people but they shot him out coming outside of the gym so they got 25 and 30 years respectively did they kill him yeah wow went back to court they were kept in the unit for 14 months they went back to court two close Court hearings they went back to court caught again for a pill Got 5 years off and 3 years off so he got reduced to 25 and 22 years now uh a recommended sentence means that you will serve at least that before we look to send you home one's been coming home on home leaves apparently for a while now and the other ones in the ccat dcat going now wow that is unheard of and everybody in the system is going what the [ __ ] this ain't right I'll take it they they're obviously uh ostracized think singing singing like they put a lot of people away Terry and they've put a lot of people in the prison system they've kept them cat a as a result of information they've got people in the prison system now going I bought guns off of him and my misses got caught with the guns it was only him who knew about it Gary Nelson who got shot for PC uh got done for killing PC done yeah right I had ra Gary Nelson in prison over him he's still in there is he yeah I thought well I'm going to bash you up to show you to show that [ __ ] [ __ ] that you cannot be protected by him because he's God Parents to his kids right I thought well we soon saw that help so and that sent to shock up his ass and thinking oh my cuz then they come away for the murder I just told you about shooting David King and then in the unit they're going you can't send me a white Kevin Lane's there on the phone to a solicitor you got to right to the home office keep me apart the big tough gangsters yeah and then they get in other prisons that I can't go to cuz they're there giving it John big potatoes giving out gold watches had a few quit at the time but of course now Gary Nelson is I've heard I don't know how true this is of course so it's only here say but it's only his mother and one other person knew where the bag was that they found buried in the churchyard OR whever and that person is a fell that put me away wow and there's other people that have been nicked along the line for other things and saying well it's only him or him that put us into it and now he's just he doesn't communicate with these people no more sh he's shut he cut his tires off with them wow so yeah I'm glad though it's coming out now yes I mean it's and and with you doing this uh this criminal justice review um if if they do that and then they come back and and say actually yeah you know you were wrongly put away um and convicted what what what does that mean for you means I'll be able to go and find a fell that shot me and ask him for a straightener I know but I but I mean I mean do you get do you get compensation or or will they do some sort of public apology or a Mis no never apologize a miscarriage Justice is not an unsafe conviction they're different but so an unsafe conviction means we don't know if he did it it's unsafe but a miscar Justice is you've been fitted up I've been fitted up the evidence shows that so if I get a miscar of Justice you get compensation got it but you remember the gentleman got done for the rap few months ago and he got so he got acquitted from the rape a few months ago an Old Gentleman and he served years and years and years for it it's only a few months ago you know lastes he's on the court of a p steps and they but anyway 17 years that fell served and they tried to take bed and board off him bed and board so it's a million quid they kept it for 10 years and over and under that it's about half a million quid so I'm a good money earner me I've always been a great money earner so like the camera Securities now the the clamping that's all got the camera security I was into the metal before that buying and selling El's I was a good money get and I've lost all of that either way I mean it can't compensate it but I look upon it you can't get bitter you got to look and go forward yeah um otherwise it will ruin you and I don't want it to ruin me so when you went in jail right when when you got convicted and and and you got and did you get a 20-year wreck well the judge turned around I said how long have I got do he said take him down take him down I didn't know the difference between a recommendation then and a tariff a tariff means you can go home on your tariff or you can start going on before if you get into a dcap take him down take him down I got my tariff three years after I got convicted on New Year's Eve and I went down to the survey and a screw give me the my tariff right [ __ ] I was that [ __ ] wanker one Kevin what do you want got out for you thought yeah of course you have I didn't know at the time what it was but I do now and he handed me Matari it was 18 years I went out what a result because in court they turn around and told the judge they wanted the maximum of 30 years to be sentenced to imposed on me so I'm sitting there for 3 years think I get 30 years I get 30 years God and they're only going to start looking to send me home by then of course 18 years I thought 12 years off I thought touch screw thought this G is nuts he's just got 18 years he's going what tou he didn't know I'd been they said 30 years yeah yeah so yeah I mean of course I thought Co can see light at the end of the tunnel now yeah young man so you you went to jail thinking you're doing 30 yeah and what was what was you know that like I mean obviously when you go in for two you go might be eight and 12 months you can get your red banded but for 30 years I mean what was what was the what did you feel when you when you when you had that was you just thinking I'm alive to [ __ ] come out or did you think I'm never getting out I thought I was never getting out because you served the 30 and then they were look to send your own but I had a real bad prison record I was always fighting with a Muffy I was saying go and get your kit on when this door opens the MU is the muy is a a termination for discriminative clothing like black clothing right I forget the actual they that's when they they come in with a shield helmets body armor and that and I was always around with them [ __ ] they actually they didn't deserve it they weren't all because there's things that happen I to go and get your kit on and you talked about a liquid Kos earlier and uh people that watch and listen to this probably won't even know what it is but injection you out for days right and like Wayne used to get that and when he was unconscious coming and weigh them in still how bad's that so those they come for me of a big needle like you see on TV with a do the big round [ __ ] things you put your fingers through in a big thing of a big metal needle so it don't bend and break yeah and I got covered myself in butter once I was in the block again and i' been in there for whatever reason I've heard of people they do [ __ ] as well don't they do [ __ ] cover myself in [ __ ] i' done that once not in [ __ ] I I did it all around the door on that but I covered myself in butter so they couldn't grab me when I was fight Kevin yeah but they brought the needle Terry right and they said Kevin look over there through the flap I'll have a shower shall I for you are not sticking at me and me been out for days there only over aircut that time and all won't let have me haircut I had a visit coming up I still got haircut books I want haircut she not getting it Lane just being [ __ ] I no problem in but get your K on cuz I've I've talking about haircuts and stuff cuz you do take care of yourself K you I've seen you you've been having some beauty treatments yeah I have yeah I have yeah I do yeah you would think so no I Mayan not you know something though right PE people would be dug out back in the day for wearing moisturized but now we're metrosexual men right we we have facials we have P manicures pedicures I don't have my head down obviously it's very shiny I went to a lure down in Brighton with Sophie and her husband and uh I went there a little while a little bit of Botox there yeah but great they got one in Amish Manor actually and she said you've got excellent skin Kevin it's so soft I said I've been creaming up since I was younger I've got really soft skin I do all over like Head and Shoulders Head to Toes Splash it all over like Brew um but but then but then going back to that that that thing when you was in jail obviously you you you you know you've got this like long long sentence head how' you get your head round that because Pat pel said to me you got Kevin this is your life now and you need to make this your life and make the best life you can for yourselves while you're in here said stop being bitter Kevin cuz it'll change your personality cuz in prison I was right happy gol lucky you know I talk to anybody long as I was nice fellas you know they had no Badness about them in terms of you know they weren't you some W nasty bastards in prison believe me they were looking for victims all the time whether they want sexual monitary bullying canteen whatever and um I'm just a happy person to you know I mean despite about the violence of things and that which I'll talk about it here now but you meet me outside of here anyone who meets me go you'd never believe that of you Kevin because you just don't talk violent when you're out you just have a laugh and stuff but most people who who who who can do it and can have it they don't have to tell people are they are act like that it's normally just bullies that do that I don't me not at all and uh oh it's podcast here so you're talking about it but I'm I hand out food charity work I've been doing charity work for two years not for any other reason because I want to I give food to the homeless and I got around and I don't get into a 9:00 at night sometimes spare food that's left from the round I take to other people who are needy in other areas why because I see this smile on kids faces and say is Kevin coming tonight if I don't go oh God cuz they haven't you know that means they're going to have a [ __ ] week indoors they're not going to have biscuits and stuff like that um that's me and and when you was in prison what was the what what was sort obviously 20 years or 18 years is aing long time right tell you I got out so on my prison record said Lane is never going to be released to he's very old or dead that's what it said on my record and I remember I had Danny mallister prison govern he was a prison director at the time he was waiting outside my C in Frankland and some paperwork was sent to my solicor from an an anonymous source but this papw come from the police files so you like this to this is really good I'm glad you asked this question he goes Kevin is that right what I've heard about this paperwork cu the guardian had did a big article on it I said yeah it is Danny it's right I like Danny McAllister because he used to give it to the scrooges thir up he's a proper man's man big Scottish man he was right gentleman and I mean that and uh don't care about what people say about screws thank God for the good and the governor are the good yeah honestly and I really mean that and U he said I've come to tell you I've put something in place in relation your category a and I'm thinking oh God what's that mean is it mean I'm going to going back up to Triple A because or S you know I've just come off of 10 and a half years I risk for two and a half years triaa God I'm not going back up because they're saying I've organized to get his paperwor out the police files from within prison anyway a few days later however long it was I was downgraded to bcat and chucked out the prison system and I went through the prison system at a great pace of knots bang bang bang and got me out because they didn't want me in prison for it to come up on a pill but the paperwork that was sent to my sist we went straight to the court of appeal we circumvented the criminal cases review commission we made a special application and the high court said right we're not interested in what you have to say police officers from Harford police who was tasked with investigating the case so the police force that found me guilt or prosecuted me were then tasked with investigating this paperwork what they should should have been an independent firm what did they do they hired retired police officers to come out of retirement to conduct the investigation who went into the files where this paperwork was 20 days after them going into them these files they went back to the the uh Crown prosecution service and said there's a conflict of interest we know the officers involved in this case so we're investigating well hold on a minute didn't you know that before you was tasked with before you come back here now but by then they've been in the boxes haven't they right yeah but nonetheless I I got released as a result and I'm here now to go back to the court of appeal so how long did you actually do in total 20 wow and then I did another I've done 24 in total [ __ ] hell yeah cuz I got recalled and that you know so but you know I'm out now I live a good life although it's difficult my restrictions are hard cuz people take the piss all the time going like that to me and uh especially when it comes to money and that's very difficult especially when you work hard I go to work my police record the Intelligence on Lane said Lane goes to work that's what he says Lane goes to work and I've had a few of them he said you know he does nothing goes to work and I'm proud of that all I have work yeah so I've got some implications in terms of my my life sentence and the life the the license on me cuz you have a life license than you yeah I can go out the country for work um people pick the phone up and phone up on me all the time but I I keep a strict ARA of where I've been where I am that phone my phone probation know about that phone it's a Tracker really isn't it I've had a tracker on my car I bought a what is it AMG E350 convertible fully loaded and I thought I come home from prison went to work a year after being own from prison I bought this car and there had a track on it and I went into Mercedes at Brooklyn they there's a track on your car I went good leave it on and I got pulled in for threatening someone at their doorstep demanding money of menaces I went really they said don't worry Mr Lan I said there's my diary and there's my work diary check them I said well we we know where you were we got no I said yeah thank you very much otherwise I'd have been in prison Terry wow how about that and and when you was in prison what would you say um was the worst violence you saw when you was in prison prison I mean obviously I know you had a few scrapes but did you see anything I mean I know lots of people have said people have been murdered in there people have committed Sude in there you know there's been been some bad stuff happening and I suppose being in there that amount of time you probably saw quite a bit you become it's mad to say you become accustomed to it the worst thing I see or I've seen this numerous of times so it's the same sort of stuff that happens but the worst thing I see was a kid that was getting out on a Monday and he was alleged to have moved someone's bag Food Bag in a freezer like a big now you can put a body in there can't you [ __ ] them big ones he and it was an a terrorist uh fell that did it from one of the uh bombers and that you know he boiled up the fat ghee from butter olive oil and that you but little 500 mil olive oil bottles or what 250 mil you get enough of him he can make a lot of GE that was tipped over his head he was getting out on a Monday but did nothing else his head went went like crackling complete crackling he was intensive care nearly died that was the worst attack I've seen based on someone who just got it done for moving someone's food bag and they and they put literally P it directly over his head pot straight over his head and the pot and walked off and that little fell that did that I've spoke to that little fell you would never believe it never believe it the same is Terry kogan Terry Conan was having a massive heart uh asthma attack and they've been waiting for the healthare to come up 35 minutes and fell that do you remember the Glasgow um GE that drove into glaso airport remember pet on that can't think of his name now s it's just lost my my thought pattern but he a doctor b b b bash bash was it Basher anyway he's gone he's gone into teres the ter Scottish I've gone and got him right the doctor the terrorist he come same all right where you and he's gone in there now Terry's having his M attack he's seen the terrorist come in there he's trying to blow up his fellow Countryman and he going he's having a wor attack and he's looking at me he drinks of me Terry think Kevin what theing are you doing that he couldn't speak cuz he couldn't breathe and he wouldn't leave he's going I'm not leaving he said I'm staying here with him he said do what you want I'm not leaving and after Terry come back out of hospital he went straight around and shook his hand and that's man G listen I appreciate everything he did he goes I really do and that shows when you're in the trenches you can collectively come together but realistically they should never been on The Landings they should have been put in internment segregated so they can't convert people who are Misfits a lot of them or bullied into it and then they go out and they next you know they're hitting the mat or because they've got no friends then they get welcomed by the brothers and they think go no one's ever welcomed me before cuz I'm a misfit mentally or whatever and then they go off and do the attacks that you see done now but if you put these people in Army Camps and segregate them so they haven't got to put put oil over people's heads cuz they're playing music in a gym they don't want lville music but this is our gym session you got your own come to yours that's happened W so so so really like when you're in jail like it doesn't even have to be a major thing it could be just like a silly little Min thing like you said like moving someone's bag or bump into someone man bump into some's having a bad day [ __ ] what's the with you what's the [ __ ] matter with me you [ __ ] bumped into me oh [ __ ] off yeah get your tools I never carried a tool in prison never just have J like dynamite take your pit cuz you're going to sleep and that was it I'll give a couple of people tools once one G said I can't fight you I said no problem I'll go and get you a tool give a so what have around now then and the g to come from your KN once I took that off him smashed his head in [ __ ] he went to healthcare I'll take it did you give him the knife back well I get well no actually I didn't stick it in him no but he just got a good iding and then he learned the ER of his ways and that was nothing to do with me really he was bullying someone and you know when you can have a real people will you'll have a lot of friends lot of friends but if you got a big art and you think well I don't like what you're doing to that person leave him alone if you're a sucker cuz then you got other you got 120 inmates in that Wing depending on the size of the wing not all of them of course but there's a lot of people in there that get hard times that's why my record said Lane don't suffer Falls easily he's good for them Mor around the wing and he's good he's good you know and but believe me there's other people like that as well not just me but a lot of lads switched their heads on and realized then that they got a duck their uput because they would never be going home well me I didn't I just I'm not having it I don't know when I'm going home but then I realized after about 10 and a half years that would be never going home if I continued on that path got it so I started having to go like that or make sure I had a rail behind closed doors or not wherever and stop fighting hitting screws and and since you've been out and you look back over your life and obviously the time you spent in jail if you had your time again would you would you change anything I would change some things I wouldn't I saying that would I have not wanted to go to prison for 20 years well of course I would not have I would have liked to have changed that but would I've ended up dead or in prison anyway probably um so you think you just the life you was and the path you was on there inevitable s would have happened at some point where life shuffles of cars and we have to play the best time we got look where I am now film I go to the theater with Julie Christie I haven't been for a couple of years with Julie but Duncan k I I go out with various TV channels producers uh I did the banged up Series yeah which wh well and Tom and Emma what you think of the guy with the tractor gate did you ever a good chat to him about the Neil parish is a lovely man so Johnny Mercer absolute sort of the Earth yeah you would love to have him in the trenches with you in the Army right I'm telling you real decent man and all the lads in there you know they've all got different past so they they've probably had some bad press some of them yeah but you need to understand that's how they done their time at that time and they were being themselves I believe they was being themselves but themselves at the time of when they was in prison I step into prison I'm Different I come out of prison I'm different but what they' done there collectively they showed the world how bad prism is so you got to tiip your ass to them because if the public don't realize how bad them places are yeah nothing will ever be done about it so ll's done a great job yeah they don't they shouldn't be targeted for that no I mean was I mean it had uh I think it was was it million or two million people watched it was most watched program it's been put forth for baa it's most streamlined wasn't it I think the lads did a great it was hard because it's difficult for me I didn't really I'm I was wrong in in in some senses in that I didn't agree with what was going on in there because you go into the jungle as a as a a soldier you go back into Soldier mode you go into prison you go back into prison mode so what I was seeing taking place was alien to me CU I come from dispersals things like that were going on but not as much as it and not in your face got it and certainly not some of the stuff that was going on that took places in the lower categories so I found that very difficult but what they were doing was right in terms of showing the public what goes on and I suppose they to condense it down and amplify it to make it like amplify cuz there was so much more they could have shown they didn't have the footage the time to show it you're two 2 140 hours worth of film for what 2 hours and 40 something minutes yeah not a lot Terry was it yeah but in in terms of getting the message across to the public that prison is not working fair play to the lads I just bang the door up me Shut bang me up Governor you want to come up no I don't shut door I'm inting marel I got my music I pull I pull a pass out my ass again I was happy in there but I found it quite difficult in terms of what was going on in there cuz I felt like I can't live with this I can't live with this because I thought I should be doing something and uh I was in the wrong but that's in senses would I wrong I did my Birdo I thought I should do my bird they did their bird that they thought they should do to red and look at a program come out it's been put forward for a b they done well done brilliant absolutely fantastic and they've all got new lives they've gone forward they've making a lives for himself well hopefully when when you your movie gets made uh that win a baset as well yeah but Ken dod's dead now so you can't play me [ __ ] hell I was you might tell you get a wig on you know what I have I've got some good wigs yeah yeah no but I think I think the uh I mean I mean you are a character and I think whoever plays you in the film um you know I I think the difficult thing about a lot of these films that are made is a lot of the people that the films are made about aren't around so the fact that you're actually around is great because they can actually sit down with you you can actually coach them and say this is how I am they can you do that don't you yeah you know that I didn't really know that but you see actually get in the thing you know what would you do here how would you do this and what you know and would you stand and you know just silly little things exactly that so the film was written they had words in there that I said well I wouldn't say that this is what it did say this that happened there I said this and that's what I said so there's been a bit of re-editing but my film's with New Amsterdam at the minute which is a big production company I was offered a part film with A3 million pound budget and all and uh I haven't taken that for before but I'm going to start Terry I'm not saying that cuz you do films but I've been like 300 requests on LinkedIn from film writer script wrer producers oh so you're going to have a little guy the acting as well I am because I got an agent I'm just about to sign who looks after people across the water and in England yeah and I've been saying no no no no no no no but I'm going to overo it because I seem to be really well liked by the socials yeah uh not Social Security but social platforms um and you'll never hear me talk about violence outside I walk out that door you only need it out of me I will stop a road sweeper and say you know what thank you for doing that job others don't want to do and I really appreciate it and I go along and I have a laugh I don't I don't like violence I'm just pretty good at it and I don't like it though and that's a sad thing to say um but am my nature and nurture bit of both really yeah so I'm sure I'm sure when there's uh another movie I'm making I'm sure they'll be saying we can uhu his je you I do bring good I mean the way it's going in a minute I mean thank you for that I can ever help you out by all means please i' I'd love to help you out but I'm going that way now because it feels like that's the way my life's going yeah they're currently looking at me doing presenting so there's that supermax prison in Mexico that's run by the army so Channel 4 been discussing with me I said about presenting prisons around the world I said no I want to go into that prison as an inmate I'd love to go in there as an inmate for 10 days 2 weeks or something I'll get on F in there do not worry about me because one thing I understand is other inmates and they will look at me and I will look at them if I went in to say like RAF he went in then took his trainers off there do you know I would have done in that instance a room full of 30 bleeding Mexicans or in Brazil or in Guatemala where death's very cheap I want your trainers I said I do you I say right who's the you number one in here who's a gaffer out ulot who's the boss out OT Cy DTI you are well I will fight you for these trainers you're a respectable man ain't you you should be weling me coming from another I might be a good Ally to you you shouldn't be trying to take I'll tell you I'll fight you for them how about that and none of you not get involved win or lose you can have my trainers I win you shake me hands and that's it that's what I would have done but you ain't Tak trainers without a fight yeah so anyway I've asked to go into there if it ever comes off that's a word of warning if you see Kevin Morton down do not try and take his train no yeah all sweets but I'd like to do that going there um cuz I know I'd get on with them I just I shake their hands they can look in the eyes and they can see I with no har to them but I won't suffer their bollocks they p a knife out well let's get on but that you know I don't know if that would happen but i' would like to do that but further to that they want about writing something like the Krypton Factor but a prison one so I'm going to be hosting as well yeah and there's been discussions like certain people I ain't going to mention their names but the three people they've mentioned are all aist and I'll be hosting them so I want to do an evening like back ging and celebrities yeah so I've got me own he going into manufacture I'm not yeah I love that yeah love that I hope you've got your face on it it's going to be called cheeky chap but your face on it don't know you've got to do it with a big smile because that'd be funny people would buy that i' buy it it's good booze I mean Marcus Luther uh Marcus Luther set a goggle box and S ow in they said Kevin that as a proper bit of clober that is a [ __ ] good drink cuz you go all Goose pimpley warms you up and you get a happy drunk on him you could get him you could get him in the advert someone Ricky and he's like he's like I'm just I'm just having a drink what you drinking I'm drinking a tricky chatby he chy chat but you know I had a message two days ago and someone said oh I'm in discussion with Charlie Bronson about doing making his o and I goes well ain't happy about that I told him I said I'm not happy about it cuz it's funny I've had hundreds of thousands of views about me and my and now someone wants to copy it right so it's obvious what you're doing I'm not happy about it wallet cut him off I'm going see if he goes into production with it but in the meantime I I am in talks with people about going into Ro production and it' be worldwide like KCI and that they've done there yeah yeah yeah he's doing it yeah um so but but in in when I do the hosting so we play for B gam if you lose you can either do press up sit up squats whatever you want to do but if you don't want to do none of them for for do you know how to play back G yeah well you know I'm not I'm not great but I can play it say you had 10 Domino's on there and you roll a dice and you roll a six you got to do 60 press UPS right and but if you don't to do them you want some of my you and you're going to have to neck it right or get it down yeah like you see Marcus do it on on the banged upstairs he go like that right it gets you but then you have three glasses of that you are on your way so so your advice is do the Press UPS do the Press UPS you know and the Boos and do the Press UPS anyway but what would happen would be four of us so we have I'd play you say there but it's not actually there not going to be no criminals on there it's going to be all celebrities yeah uh they but they don't want me to go down the crime way which is good so you'd move round so the winner stays on I'd sit here and play someone else sit here and play if you lose it's s or press UPS you can imagine like say Adell comes on there for instance right she loves a drink she's a laugh and she would have a drink see that' be it'd be entertaining yeah and it's that type of thing I want to do different lifestyle different thing well I'm glad you've been inspired to do these different things and also doing like banged up and doing your book and going out in the public domain doing these podcasts you know it's obviously put you on everyone's radar so uh restorative justice is the big one I'm going to do Terry and that people need to look at that and do that I'm going to meet a fellow I kidnapped little will Gill foil smashing fell I ruined his life for many years [ __ ] ruined his life honestly and he's such a nice fell and um I spoke to him today will well messaged him I'm going to be seeing him soon so they're on about doing restorative justice and us meeting up at the end of where it took place and things like that and showing how people can come together I think people need to see their victims more so than copying people's work and being nodding dogs in a class with a prison officer that's only done the course 3 weeks ago and he's only been in a job two months l that happened to me once and the person hated me give me a bad report and I did the same course a few years later but restorative justice I think it's an excellent program and they should do that more meet your victims because if you've got heart inside your inside your body there and it's a good art that will change you yeah it bloody changed me I felt so humbled and ashamed of what i' done again and uh I'm looking to do that and that's it that's being discussed in a moment quite heavily what was your New Year's resolutions did you did you have any uh I didn't make one I was drunk with Kenny Collins in Belfast I didn't make one yeah so my new resolution is to just be a better person I'm going to say that now yeah that's what's come to my head continue being a a better person and improve on that brilliant that's what I want to do well Kevin I've I've enjoyed you coming on I've enjoyed us having having a bit of a banter and going over your life and I think I definitely feel like this has been different to all the other podcasts you've done I've loved it which is uh which has been which is good because obviously you don't just want to do the same old thing um because it it would become boring but I think uh you got so many great stories and uh you know hearing some of the stories today I I think all all there sort of audience will uh definitely resonate with it they definitely want to see more of you on the TV and obviously uh you might see Kevin pop up in uh in one of the movies killing somebody or beating them up Kev thank you so much forj Fally enjoyed it thanks for tuning in the criminal connection podcast my name's Terry Stone and that was Kevin Lane what an amazing guest and this year is going to be a better man so um I hope you enjoyed the show make sure you tune in next week we've got another amazing guest thanks for watching make sure you like subscribe and tell everybody about the criminal connection and we'll see you on the other side thank you very much to all the best everybody thank you very much

Channel: Criminal Connection Podcast

Views: 77,784

Keywords: terry stone, terry stone podcast, kevin lane, kevin lane podcast, kevin lane recalled, kevin lane jail, kevin lane prison, kevin lane released, bernard o'mahoney, bernard omahoney, carlton leach, tony tucker, criminal connection, true crime podcast, uk true crime, london true crime, essex true crime, prison podcast, jail podcast, banged up, channel 4 banged up, channel 4 prison show, rise of the footsoldier, what happened to kevin lane, terry turbo, podcast, true crime

Id: D4O6qrzuh0k

Length: 101min 45sec (6105 seconds)

Published: Sun Mar 17 2024