Kevin DeYoung, Moscow Mood, and Institution Drift | Doug Wilson & Ben Merkle

final Doug Wilson and Friends of this No Quarter November this is Doug Wilson hi and here are some friends I'm Joe rigny Jared Longshore and joining us today the one and only Ben Merkel I'm the last friend the last friend the very last one we drug we drug him in barely made it at the end of the world that's right and uh we're excited it's been a great November we've had a a big a big time uh you said earlier you thought man this has been one of the best one you you this one's been the best yeah this has been the best because uh the other team came out to play that's good so in previous previous novembers we've been interacting with the Zeitgeist which is sort of like being in a fist fight with the fog yeah right you're you're dealing with all the crazy stuff you heard about this last previous year and the general Vibe and that sort of thing but this November we had at least three um episodes where other people came on the field and part and be made it made it what what what it was we're so grateful we so grateful there was your there was your exchange with Karen swo prior and the empathy thing that was one November e thing and then there was the spanking video yeah um ncy coming off the top rope NY put us all in the shade and then there was the U um Kevin Young Piece that just hit at the tail end to sort of finish off the the month yeah that's actually a good place to start uh let's let's let's talk a little bit about the D Young Piece um I think first thing to say is it was a it was good because it was an attempt to be clear Fair um and to get at some really important issues yeah he just as a as someone who studies rhetoric and writing and that sort of thing yeah most of our enemies are unhinged right they they so when they come against us they think that if one's good two's better um if the if there's one Orc in Moscow let's make there be three Orcs in Moscow and right everybody's an orc everybody's a Kling on they're all un they're all demented and that and the people who have any acquaintance with what's going on here right know that that's not true and so they dismiss it but then they say but why all the vements and then they give us a second look so so the people who are unhand critics are people whose criticisms do nothing I think long run but help us right Kevin D young made the very shrewd decision I think it was a conscientious one but he didn't demonize us right you know he there were a number of things that he said this is what they do well this is what this is good this is good I understand how reasonable Christians would be attracted to that right but I think there's I think there's a a fly in the ointment I think I think there's a problem and his criticism was a weighty criticism right but he didn't make the mistake of trying to demonize us and make make it appear what everybody knew was not true is as the truth yeah so um at this point I think you're planning to respond on Monday Monday I've got one cooking uh and then you've got one cooking so we won't go into all of that because why would we spoil the December surprises that's right no spoilers no spoilers but we could give a little teaser maybe so uh you want to tell us what you're going to what kind what kind of angle you oh i' love to first of all I think this is a great moment because one I just think Kevin's great so I bumped into him in a conference before um and he's written all kinds of stuff that's just really good so I just think like when I think Kevin young I always think this is a great fellow and I'm glad that he um critiqued the way he did because I do think it's a chance to counter it as as brothers and say okay this is great because you have now represented a big problem that I think is on the other side and so we need to explain some things on this side but try to explain what's going on over there primarily to your point when you read Kevin um I find that he he writes ways I at least attempt to write where I'm like you want to Grant everything that's good and that's being careful but the problem is in doing so sometimes you can paint yourself into a corner because you can't say well you know Doug is presenting to the church and the World a muscular angular Christianity um that that commending you and you know his family loves him and loves Christ but I'm concerned about the long-term spiritual side effects built in EOS of trying to admire the the mood he cultivates I'm like it doesn't comport because you know grapes don't come from Bramble bushes so so in him in him being careful I basically think he kind of reduced his own criticisms to a point where like what are you talking about like if we are you saying are you saying that this mood is actually going if this mood comes from such um such virtue yeah how can you be worried that it's actually going to cultivate um something other than that Christian virtue yeah or and at the very least there's there's an element of like um whatever whatever difference or disagreements there may be um does it warrant the kind of standoff and stiff arm that Moscow often receives from the world that Kevin lives in yeah and there's there's a few more things I won't go to just one more teaser one more pardon that people don't understand Moscow because they don't they don't they're not actually at this kind of this intersection between the church and the world that is so um so clear and then they also don't understand like the um the chestertonian Calvinism people don't get that I I made a meme and I put a flamethrower mhm and one pill of the the the Matrix Meme and I put piety you know and of course morphus go did you just take both pills did you take I I and that I want to poke that because I'm like I know that world that I mean I was in this world for a long time it was always like you can't and then they have this this weird infatuation with Moscow but they you can't do the flamethrower you can't write like w house and be spiritual and he actually the young S I love W house too but as ministers it's like you can't be a and right like w house and I want to hit that and say no that's actually the kind of spirit you actually need to be a godly man in this age now I don't mean let me say this in the mic clearly I don't think people have to write like Doug or C you don't have to use the words Doug uses I'm like you know not everybody's got that spiritual gift not everybody has this ability so I'm not saying you have to do it like Moscow I'm just saying you really shouldn't be that upset like right about about some kind of lack of virtue here that's just he just missed it on that point um so for mine um I got a couple of things that I'm wanting to hit on one one is um the the role of satire um because I think among friends of mine I think one of the things that they feel is the the uh Canon Twitter account when it makes fun of things and makes fun especially of like fellow Christians like real Christians the the mistake they make is thinking um if you're making if if the justification for satire is Elijah and the prophets of Baal or Jesus and the Pharisees well that's what he's doing against high-handed Rebellion wickedness and un to unbelievers and so if you're making fun of us if you're making a meme like that if you're doing something like that are you are you treating us like unbelievers and so part of it is just getting clear on the fact that satire is a form of rebuke and it's on a dimmer switch and so there's certain kinds right and and but for whatever reason that's not an obvious thing to a lot of people is that they think if you're if you're using satire you're treating us like a non-Christian and and it's not it's like excommunication it's like excommunication it's a why this is this is something that you use on the world but not something you should use on fellow brothers and that's and that's just not true so if if you think of satire as a form of rebuke it's on a dimmer switch so po playful prodding and poking can be seriously done because hey knock it off you're you're kind of heading down the wrong path or you're making a stupid point or you're acting like a fool um that's perfectly appropriate to to use satire and that kind of mockery and then you just dial it up as as it's more serious compromise more serious failures of leadership among Christians well now you're going to dial it up and then you get to the really gnarly stuff and then you've got some really Choice words that that that now you're into Elijah and the prophets of Bale territory but it's just but so that's one um I think the other the other big thing um is the notion that that Moscow is the one that wants to stiff arm everybody that want doesn't want to link arms with people and I just think that's a I mean I've I've been working for 15 years to try to build Bridges among all of my friends all over the place like I I just really I want everybody to be everybody to be be friends right let's be friends with everybody who's friendly and especially with other Christian Christians who have same you know theological convictions um conservative Bible believing reformed we ought to we ought to be able to get along while still being the kind the different flavors that we are and in all of my experience the barrier to linking arms has never been on the Moscow side and has almost always been among those who want to be respectable and for whom Association or affiliation with Moscow would be a problem because of reputation because of credibility they don't want to encourage it and so they want to keep their distance and so for for Kevin to sort of chastise Moscow for playfully making memes and their Burning Bridges or or or forbidding Christian Fellowship all the while all of the invitations to come out here have been denied or resend or you know backed out of and nobody will come on the show nobody will you know we're getting knows Every Which Way um is a little disingenuous because it paints them as we would love to be friends but but do you would would would the effort to link arms actually so that's a little pre there's more in there but what are you what are you going to do okay so what am I going to do that's a good question so um I'll just say uh overall I've got a head full of bees you know so I've chase this and chase this and chase this but I I start off by making the point I just made here earlier what Kevin did right you know and I want to commend him for what he did right because it was real criticism as opposed to just an unhinged rant it was there I knew what is objection was he articulated it clearly and I can answer it U so I would want to commend him for that so what Kevin did right and then I've got a bunch of different things that I want to address the language thing the differentiation thing is something else I I want to address uh but I I'll just mention here how what I'm going to conclude with what the conclusion with uh at the very top of Kevin's Kevin's article he says I'm not really interested in getting into a big debate with Wilson or supporters I'm sorry you can't do that right um this this I think the header for that concluding section is a mandatory Q&A yeah um because otherwise Kevin D young has just conducted a driveby admonition or a driveby rebuke and sprayed everybody you know um sprayed everybody and then says and I'm not interested in I I think the discussion is closed mhm uh no yeah no it's not it's not closed and I think and there's something that's different about this uh we've been Fielding questions about tone for 40 years this is not a new y uh objection but there W there was something very different about this goor round um and that was when this article came out and when Justin Taylor retweeted it and made some comments about it uh the I saw by a significant there was a significant increase of widespread support for us people saying that this criticism doesn't fly in other words I think this I think this was a swing and a miss that we before we've even answered right a bunch of other people out there have seen that it was a swing in a miss and you can see even see the disgruntled uh behavior of some people who would like it to have connected M who were complaining that it was a swing and a uh a swing and and a miss and so that tells me that this is not over I'm very grateful that someone of Kevin D young stature put this ball into play yeah but having put it into play the ball is in play and the game's not over so this we're going to let's keep having the conversation we're going to have this conversation and I think given the fact that it was not a knockout blow uh that Kevin delivered I think he's going to have to follow it up or someone in his corner is going to have to follow it up right that's good well you can look forward to that we'll uh we'll have some of those later in the week um they'll be in December so there'll probably be qualifications and all sorts all Nuance coming out every I deliberately pushed my response into December so that I could qualify the heck out of it there you go uh maybe maybe shift shift gears to this um I think you know one of the the heart of that accusation was you guys fight all that all you do is fight you're just fighting all the time you're pugnacious and you seem to really like it um but Kevin does knowledge sort of in passing that we also like to build so you know build and fight is one of our key things the bookstore down there nsa's bookstore is called sword and shovel right you know Ezra neem the Nehemiah deal um building rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem um but I think one of the like misconceptions is that people think well in Moscow itself um Moscow is kind of a safe place because it's in a red State and so there's probably Christians every in the you know it's a small town and so Christ Church is in charge of everything all the people at Christ run everything and so it's just a safe Christian Christian place um I think this is probably the most common misconception about about here and so I'm wondering maybe like you guys talk a little bit about that and about how um some of our our um pugnaciousness some of the some of the fight is because we're living in a there's a place here where the battle lines are really clear and you don't get to just kind of push it into the future any any thoughts on just kind of the like how Moscow itself as a this particular makeup has sort of shaped the kind of community that had to be built here in order to weather the particulars think the president of NSA who sits on on on Friendship Square yeah and who sees a lot of the well you put up with probably more nonsense than yeah anybody it it is really remarkable definitely Moscow is not in the back pocket of Christ Church uh by any means right um both um well particularly like politically you see this that um it's a very strong left-leaning city council mayor uh local government and that shows in the um you know there's there's high tolerance for a lot of shenanigans conducted against us and not a lot of interest in actually backing up our our rights as Citizens and whatnot so yeah the number of times um you know the you know how many times if you just watched the security footage for Christ Church for or new St Andrews how many times on any given weekend are the front windows SP on or who knows what we've had the windows broken out tires slashed but then also just the political apparatus uh just strange charges that you're constantly having to defend yourself complaints and Zoning um all sorts of things like that that are a little bit ridiculous so you're in a yeah we're definitely in a constant sort of defensive position and I think that that um that does create a little bit of um well okay I I was just talking with one of our employees who's newer to the school and he was just talking about like the last um you know the last six weeks or so on social media had kind of melted his eyebrows for all the things that are going on and he was looking at me in and I was like this is this is just Tuesday and man like there there is a certain kind of um you you you learn to deal with a certain kind of constant hostility against you and you you kind of get bigger than it and it doesn't scare you or bother you because um this is the the town that you live in and something to point out here is that in one respect some people say oh they started logos school and they started building institutions decades ago and that's true so by the grace of God we've we compared to a lot of Christian communities we have a jump on it in terms of building institutions a publishing house and multiple publishing houses and uh K through2 logos school and college college and all of that but um it's also uh so we're maybe 15 20 years down the road ahead of other Christian communities Again by the grace of God but the unbelieving opposition is also 152 years uh down the road so I think what we're seeing here is in uh a microcos in microcosm and a Flash Forward of what's starting to Bubble Up in the rest of the country right um and so and one of the reason I think a lot of Christians instinctively understand that and so they're they're looking to us because we're in the third quarter and they're in the first quarter and and they're thinking how do you play this um how should we play this offense yeah and and I think that there are um some helpful things that we could offer right as a result of that learned a thing or two over those years but it's not because everything's Placid here right right I I think that um if you look at the last two to three decades in um American kind of cultural history and particularly the role of the Evangelical Church in America over the last two to three decades almost all of it is marked by the loss of Institutions um we're losing uh colleges losing churches losing denominations um just kind of it's It's losses across the board and there's one significant um counter to that which has been I think the advance of the classical Christian education movement that that is the that is the single biggest gain that the Evangelical Church has had in America over the last 20 to 30 years and it's it's remarkable how every time I go to a college um you know a room of college presidents who are introducing themselves and saying something about their college every single college is trying to position itself as the we're we're where classical Christian education is really happening it's the one place where we're making U we're gaining ground and that that started here and so when I when I hear um yeah critique CRI that you're all about the snark you're all about just critiques and um I when I look at what's going on in Moscow I see I mean there there is a certain spiciness in in certain places but 98% of the work is is the work of building and building building schools institutions Building Homes building churches building Christian Community when I as a um as a recruiter when I'm trying to convince somebody to come to New St Andrews by far the one thing I'm always trying to do is just say just come and visit I just want you to come and spend a weekend in the community uh have a Sabbath dinner go to a PSAL sing go like learn and see what's going on and that the idea that all that's happening is snark is hilarious I mean to anybody that's here but I do think that there is there is a there is a spicy disposition that is required to actually advance and and you you don't gain ground unless you're ready to actually own it in a way that does offend certain sensibilities and until the church adopts that I don't I think it's going to only be losses yeah so is Imagine talking to your great-grandfather who landed at Normandy in D dday and you said what gr Grandpa Gramps what do you think of France and he said well it's a beautiful countryside I was there for four years but it's violent country right yeah it's just I've never seen so much violence um well you were in a war and and so on the front lines on the front lines and you fought all the way to Berlin and his if he dismissed France as a violent place well one sees his perspective of course yeah but that's not zoom out for a minute right so if if you were to come here and spend a few weeks the chances are good that you would be able to go to a play football game um a concert um you know all kinds a couple of Sabbath dinners sabn um ship Services um a bunch of things that have nothing whatever to do with satire with satire but do have to do with attempts to apply the gospel to all of life and you're going to see that everywhere how does the gospel change this how can I be obedient here but here's the thing if we built if we were having concerts and plays and cultural engagement and all of those things and we didn't have the combative Spirit we didn't have guards on the walls right we didn't have armed sentries if we didn't have that what we'd be doing is building nice institutions for the Liberals to take over right because that's what they do right uh liberalism moderate moderatism is parasitic right um Believers build institutions and liberals take them over right and which is the opposite of Deuteronomy says you're going to um you know you're going to uh plow in fields that you didn't plant you're going to you know Harvest from G Vineyards that you didn't right you know so you're going to live in houses you didn't build that's the the pro the deuteron deuteronomic promises are all they're going to build something and you'll inherit it by the by the grace of God by the blessing of God if you're faithful and instead we're the one building the houses to hand it off to the right and just a bit of a sticky situation that we're in now I imagine that somebody that really appreciated D Young's article would say yeah that's all fine and good but there's a lot of men out there that are just copying your snark and they're not building anything and I would Grant it say well amen that that's true and for those for that group for those of for those people who say Well I'm want to take it to the libs and you're not actually cultivating your home you're not actually developing a Theology of worship as a as a minister of the Gospel you're not working with committees and fundraising and all kinds of work with with classical Christian schools and colleges those people actually have to start building so you have to look around you in your local area and you have to get to work like if you're not actually um longing for the kingdom and laboring to see the kingdom manifest in your midst and you're just just taking taking it to the libs on Twitter then you're then you're missing it so I would want to Grant the point and then I'd want to point out the other problem so the other group many of the people especially the institutional minded people that liked D Young's article the problem is those institutions already exist and they're big and they don't have this fundamental principle that is necessary to not drift left right all right so I remember Mohler Moler was the guy that said institutions drift left and they have to be ramrodded to the right and if I back up in my SBC days that they recovered the board at at Southern Seminary and the entire board was conservative and they said you know they said go get them Al they hired a president and said go get them when you're the president of an organization and your whole board's to your right saying go get them well you're the president of an organization like oh let's party okay but what do you do when the board's to the left of you or mixed mixed it's mixed and it's just drifting and it's drifting and it's drifting and I want to say to all of these institutions first of TGC is gone okay erlc gone um but all of these big institutions the ones that want to throw shade at us and try to get you know people to to come to their side how far are you going to let it drift before you ram brought it to the right that's my question for these men like how effective was Kevin D Young's winsomeness at keeping TGC from becoming a Taylor Swift uh fan yeah right I mean this is where if I look around um reformed Evangelical American evangelicalism there all these institution they're they're far too big so it's one thing for an individual to go you know what I got to change um and I'm not saying the arms the L the right hand of the Lord is too short for this I'm just saying it's time like we're going to keep it up you're going to get it double time from us until these institutions that have conservative people at the top that are unwilling to pay the cost and unwi they you're not humble enough to get a flamethrower get mad at me for that like people going to get mad whatever you're not humble enough to to do some of the things that are required like some the prophets had to do some things right like I mean this was but you you're not you're way too clean all right um and and anyways they're going to have to they're going to have to ramrod now these institutions are just G well it's interesting one of the things um I remember uh at some some point you know the the the NSA build and fight video it's kind of the anthem video is a is a really good embodiment of I think the Moscow mood and so if you if you haven't seen that go go see the go look up the NSA build and fight video because it is about this we're building the wall rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem and we're doing it with hostiles harassing Us in various ways like you said one of the things here is you can see how the The Wider um there's a cultural element to this so there's just something in the air among um the adversaries of God and how they leverage that and then they figure out how they can wield political power and various other kinds of economic power in order order to to disrupt things um but I remember one time showing a couple of NSA promo videos to a pastor friend of mine and just just to get us take like what do you what do you think because I like I like them I think they've been great um and and motivating and energizing and I just said what what do you think of this and his response was um really simple he just said there are certain problems that institution will never have yeah right yeah and I thought that was a really mean in other words the the the thing is there's a um why did why did something like the woke infection get so far in to so many different places was respectable it was respectability it was L and it was it was soft and subtle and and there was and there was some truth in C certain things oh yeah but this is there's racial history there is you know abuses happen so um it's all respectable and we want to be respectable we want to be known for caring for all of these things and so it's able to work its way all the way in playing on sof soft-hearted Christians and leaders who aren't willing to to draw a line well that that sort of infection just sailed past Moscow like you guys didn't have to deal with any internally there wasn't there wasn't any um constituency within this community right that was agitating for all of the stuff that Afflicted hundreds and hundreds of churches and Ministries and denominations around the country well why not it's like could we just call the women pastors shepherdesses right yeah right I mean why not because of flamethrowers right like like that that it's a disinfectant that clears that clears stuff out so that you don't even have to deal with certain kinds of ideological Rod yeah when when you have when you have a statement of faith or um institutional distinctives or things like that you say this is what we are about every time you hire or enroll a student or something like that there's always a portion that's that is sitting there thinking yeah I'm not I'll I'll kind of Nod at that I'll sign my name but but I'm really here because sooner or later you're going to die and I'm going to steer this in a different direction I'm I'm really about something else and I can tolerate what you've put up but I really plan on taking this in a different direction that's always a force in every institution and so if your subscription to the statement of faith or your or your institutional distinctives is just a nod and a wink then then you can be guaranteed that the people that are coming behind you are going to over throw it right if your if your institutional distinctives are portrayed in such a way that to come here I need to really actually own that right then you you you push that whole crowd out and so there's a whole host of you're right there's a whole host of questions that I kind of don't need to ask when I'm interviewing because if you're willing to come to Moscow um and this is the the sad thing is that like you know if you're willing to um teach a new St Andrews your CV is kind of destroyed for all other future institutional um so you have to mean it and and and when you have that then there's this camaraderie there's a like-mindedness we are we truly believe what we're saying and I think there's a lot of these other institutions that are saying no no we believe that also it's in our statement of faith but it's not in the hearts of half of your employees it's not in the hearts of the Next Generation the hearts and it's got to be in the water and it's got to be in the air so that to be a mood it doesn't be a mood that's that's a uh so if someone accepts a job at NSA and let's say they're kind of moderate they they could drift left under different different circumstances and that person if they accepted a job here gets in serious trouble with his extended family for coming here and has to answer questions yeah okay he's not going to do it yeah right yeah yeah cuz he yeah he won I mean another way to put it is um you know when I was at Bethlehem we had had a we had an episode we had some soft woke elements that had worked their way in and it was it was a big deal it blew up and it was it was really it was really painful really hard for a lot of people and in reflecting back on it it was interesting that during all of the time when the the racial um conversation was going on or the abuse conversation or the manhood Womanhood conversation and these things are happening as as sort of Institutions are waking up to to wokness um there were all these discussions about hey let's try to get a statement of Fai let's try to get a statement put out some statements on this let get some you know affirmations denials and everything which is good like those those are good statements let's get clarity on these issues um and try to see if that can help clear out some stuff and put up good guard rails um and that's and that's a good way it it ought to be done but the actually the thing that was most effective at bringing the issues to light and bringing them into sharp relief and eventually clearing them out was me appearing on man rampit with you yeah right it was it was far more effective you're welcome right right it was it was far more effective at sort of bringing the issues into sharp relief because all of the people who were wanting to take the take the institutions and the churches in these different directions just lit their you know they they went they let their hair on fire it went unhinge over this very you know reasonable discussion of different um attitudes toward suffering and empathy and and because it was with it was I didn't even have to I didn't have to use any um sharp language I didn't I didn't have to do any of that I just had to stand close enough neither did I yeah yeah in that instance you just had to be sweet little ball right asking I was just asking questions um but it but it actually brought those issues out to where they could be addressed biblically they could be okay well who that's really what you think let's let's do a Bible let's get into the Bible let's what was our theological Doctrine but it took that to actually bring it out because like you said there are people who can sort of well I can check that box but are willing but but as soon as you're not looking are going to try to carry the banner in a different different direction um so here's here's a question um the other the other piece about the build the build piece is um here's here's a story it's a Kevin D young story cuz uh last uh spring he came to the Bethlehem pastor's conference and he and John Piper and I were sitting around talking and he brought up uh I think it right after right after Tim Keller died when did when did Keller die was that in the spring sounds right it may have been around there but um so we we were talking about and the comic Kevin made um observation he made was um if you think he was doing the neers taxonomy of Christ and culture thing and so there's the Christ transforming culture view was this behind his article his yeah his template uh it it may have been related to that template but it was but it was a little separate from it was it was just who who are the Christian transformationalist and the observation he made was that um if you look at modern evangelicals that are sort of Kyan and want to do the transformational thing the two most prominent Evangelical representatives of that view Christ transforms culture not separates not whatever um are Doug Wilson and Tim Keller right and and he said and so he made this observation he said and yet they're obviously so different they're obviously different all kinds of ways and his question was what what accounts for it and um and so I I so I took a stab at it and the thing uh the first thing I said well there is something to the fact that you know big city small town there's something there that's going to bring out different things Moscow is small it's not necessarily less liberal I've seen more um it's it's crazy I've seen more trans people here in four months than I saw in Minneapolis in 10 years mean I mean some that and that's part of the small town right they're they're you know it's they're at Walmart they're they're it's all over the place um and uh the same guy with three dresses oh all right I'll have to tell Susan uh but uh the so part of small small town big city but the other thing is is I think that when Keller would talk um culture transformation the sort of the first place that would the thing that would be front and center for cultural transformation would be things like the Arts would be things like vocation and business and big and and big business finance it's New York and the sort of things that you know young up and cominging um New York single people are really excited about when Moscow talks about cult Christ transforming culture the first place we're talking about is your dinner table right your home it starts there and and that that accounts in a lot of for in a lot of ways for a big difference in that mood is when you when we say culture we're talking about culture in the home we're talking about culture of a family and then working out from there to a church and and so on and so forth and if I might add uh the first place um the center of it all is worship right and that throws people for a loop that only see Moscow from the outside like they haven't they haven't worked through some of the um worship theology that has been established here um and that is an essential piece and it it actually protect this is like the piety and the flamethrower thing okay they um Doug you we have prayer meeting every Friday morning Doug's liturgical prayer right at the end right every week what God please everything that we do connect it as we show up to to the Lord's day with our families to worship you we ask it's all this is the driving force of everything that we're doing and we really believe that so when the saints come together uh Hebrews 12 thing we believe we are coming together to the Heavenly Jerusalem and we are crying out to God and we're expecting him to show up like he did on Mount Carmel we are expecting him to show up and light the flame and change people's hearts through the Lord's Supper through the word preached through his sa through his word and PE that's deeply ingrained into the culture of this community and it's foreign to the world outside even the culture Shapers outside and so you don't start with the city you start with your heart before the Lord and you start with the Lord and the whole thing is then by faith so it's like we're trusting him in that moment and then we're going everywhere else trusting him to to watch Giants fall to watch transformation in the Covenant people to watch people brought in I mean the whole thing is centered right there on worship which uh resources that should be a free be if Canon hasn't given away should be like angels in the architecture and other work like that oh you know as it turns out the Kindle freebie this week is angels in the architecture oh look at that I really didn't know that originalos yeah the original Moscow mood you know the the back in the day Moscow mood was angels in the architecture which really does get into that relation between worship and culture yeah and pastors what pastors do the same thing like you know write the write the blog and I I think P need to be more in the Public Square but make sure that you have developed your liturgy make sure you developed your sermons make sure you prayed over them make sure youve developed your exhortations your communion meditations like that's your center right and then get to these other things but remember where your Center is I think the the other thing is the the world will happily invite Christians to come in and engage them and partake with culture on any number of fronts when they know that the end result is that they will get your children that that you coming in means you're going to come in but sooner or later we're going to get your kids and when you have I think the thing that is really different is when you have a culture where the kids are actually following in the footsteps of the parents where the where the um the focus is on raising that next Generation to love God where um the authority of the pastor comes from the fact that he's qualified because he's raising actual U biblical family which you know um T Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 qualification for an elder are raising children that are that are believers I think when you when you are coming at them with a a culture that actually is replicating itself and growing that's when you're going to actually get real conflict because they'll they'll they'll let you put your Jesus sticker on anything when they know we're going to still get your kids we just have to wait a little bit so um right now I don't have the exact number but it's roughly 30 35% of the kids at logos there's 650 kids at logos 35% of them are children of alums um so U kids who went through logos got married having kids and their kids are now there and then we're probably around the same percentage 30 35% of all the school-aged kids in Moscow are in private Christian education um and so consequently uh in in our community here the Christians have largely checked out of our voluntary program of being the Breeders for the secularists where uh we're willing to have the babies and then we hand them over to the state to educate well that was a Fool's game that and yeah and and if you if you don't then I mean this is I mean d Young's article was the long-term spiritual effects was sort of the warning he wanted to raise well the long-term spiritual effects of that sort of thing we're trusting the Lord that the long-term spiritual effects of that kind of intentionality and building and fighting is going to be the blessing of God for Generations right um make it make it practical connected to two things november-ish uh number one was um in terms of like that family cult so if we're going to start worship is the heartbeat worship is the place that's that's if we want to talk about where the culture War begins it's in in on the Lord's day with God's people um but it does get out into the family and one of the things you did I think in your Thanksgiving leftover um No Quarter November is you took a shot at parents and giving their kids smartphones teen teenagers um and so I've got a 14-year-old I've got a I've got a te a budding teenager you've got a couple teenagers that are right there at the cusp um but you guys have raised teenagers uh and I did it before smartphones were invented yeah you did it before cheating I'm a position of spiritual Superior that's right um You did we did they not one minute um but you had to do it with right in the middle of the smartphone sort of Revolution so I'm curious because I do think that um as as I when I look around at Key challenges for maintaining um the kind of culture you want to maintain it seems to me that these little devices are one of the big um it's like the big Bronco that you have to WR it's a small thing but it's like the that's like the tongue it's a fire it can set on you know the world can get set on fire by this both because of the the gross evil that could come through it you got a brothel in your pocket and you're just going to give it to your kid um but also uh just because of the just the nonsense and triviality and other kinds of just wasting away of time that can be that can come from these so I'm just wondering may just talk a little bit about how do you what how do we help what advice you give to parents who really want to do the kind of building we're doing but maybe undermining it by a too easy breezy acquiescence when it comes to their kids in technology I would quick divide it into two categories one would be the moral component you you want accountability conversations um conversations that are meaningful not just a cursory check are you doing okay but actual conversations on the moral side but then you want to be concerned about the time waster uh side just frittering away um hours and hours scrolling through cat videos or what you know whatever um so the this was not we didn't have have any kind of a smartphone or digital high technology when our kids were going through this period but we had there were the the equivalent at the time music videos MTV just to just started up and and I think parents are ill advised to just simply clamp down and run away run away and they're also ill advised to just hand the keys over to the kids and say sort it out yourself so parents have to learn how to operate a phone they have to learn how to to manage content set filters have conversations cultivate the relationship with their kids and not just say oh it's okay you should check your kids Spotify playlist and if there's 15 uh spot explicit labels and okay there's a problem or if half the songs say radio cleaned up version that tells you that they took the dirty words out yeah but there is probably a whole lot of Gunk that surround so basically I I would urge active engaged parents um I think we had we had a number of rules with our kids um like we' let them have them at a certain age I mean not what about when do you think I want to 25 it's the problem like once your kids like graduate high school I have this depth perception problem like I can't remember now did they start walking at 3 or 5 can't but uh I remember it was basically um for for us it was mostly like upper High School no it it was it was lower than that was when they started getting into sports or Junior High Sports because they would be going on these trips and we wanted to be able to communicate with them right so we would do that but the rules we would have would be things like um we would not allow them to have internet upstairs you're not on your phone upstairs because upstairs that's where their bedrooms were so that meant that anytime they're on their phone they're in the living room out in front of us y um I had standard deal is um I pay for your phone that means I can look at it whenever I want and I think um and they should be comfortable with that that I can look and see I can read what you've been doing I can see what you've downloaded and we can talk about what's on there um I'm because I'm walking you through how you ought to use this and there's nothing hidden on this that's that's hidden from me um I know this was more of an issue with daughters than with sons my sons had zero interest in social media um my daughter's more interested in that so so we are pretty reluctant to Grant social media um accounts and when they did um they didn't post anything unless it they previewed it with my wife and I first so walking through like how are you going to present yourself why do you want to say it like that are you going to comment let let's let's talk through what you're trying to do with that and trying to teach them instincts about what how they want to present themselves and then also I think like that Spotify thing um you know it was pretty common dinner table we're talking about what's your what's your Spotify um you know what's your Spotify list let's listen to the lyrics let's talk about that as a family there shouldn't be a place where there's a me that's not engaged with the rest of my family it's not a private little quiet thing all of it is stuff you need to talk to us about and we can give you advice on and then the goal is that then when they're 18 19 to be able to say okay you're you've learned how to use this right and we've spent it would be rough to hand an 18-year-old that device and say you have complete freedom and I've not prepared you to use this at all right um I think we you know you and I were talking because I I was asking you this question about okay my son's getting 14 he wants to listen to things um and I don't that the one temptation of parents is to want to just run away from it all and just clamp down and you don't get to any of that kid um and then you run into the well at some point they're going to get it um and I think one of the things you said maybe this is from Nate was um you can why don't you go you're you're free to go Rome and find whatever songs you want so I'm going to so by the time they're 1415 you can go find stuff but you got to bring it back and make yourself a playlist right and show it to me and let's look through the songs and let's talk about it right um and again they need to be the sort of songs that you could play you know on the speaker out loud not just the songs that you want to have on your you know earphones where nobody else could hear it bring Grandma over yeah bring Grandma over over on the C how is she going to do and I thought that was it was really helpful to just kind of go okay that's a way you know it does require a certain amount of Faith to say okay I'm I'm letting him go search around on Spotify or Amazon music or whatever it is to go find things and they might bring back some stinkers they might bring back some stuff that you're like oh man but but what I found this is just a couple weeks ago that you and I were talking about this um one of my sons came back and he said well Dad this song I really like this song but it has the sword in it so what do I what do I do and so now we gotta have that conversation about like okay is that um is there a cleaner version is it something you know and and the conversation becomes well the problem with that sort of song is it's just going to get in your head and you're going to sing it without even thinking about it and this is just going to become part of your normal vocabulary and even though there is a place for carefully targeted vulgarities and obscenities but not accidentally but not accidentally and not just as a part of your normal um normal vocabulary and so and so had I had I not said go look that conversation isn't going to happen right this goes back I said MTV was just coming out what I what I did was I would turn MTV on sit down with the kids watch a music video then turn it off and then I'd say okay what were they saying what's what was that about uh what was was going on and today I've got a Spotify account and I'm I'm a tech user of the sort that figures out how to use 5% of the program to get what I want and then there are all these features that just lie dormant and just today hey I accidentally found there's a little icon in the bottom of the desktop Spotify you click it and the lyrics [Laughter] appear Game Changer you say oh that's what he's saying this this is news to me so that's that's very like it's a little thing on the lower right hand side and the lyrics pop up and and it's man yeah and those moments are you you can do so much by exting a song or a movie like if you sit down with kids tell the story what well yeah well there's a couple stories here one was like Elsa so we flamed Elsa this you know you flamed Elsa yeah why did you do that by the way why did you listen well I'll tell you why I flamed her back in the day without a flamethrower for my kids but we we'd watch Elsa and she's when she's doing the no right no wrong no rules for me I'm free which is the exact you know like oh pause and we're like well let's let's do some biblical counseling El what's the idol of her heart at the moment let's replace that with a promise you know what what what was the conduit for the follow your heart crap um that that flooded into so many Evangelical Homes yeah well Disney can be whatever you want to be with when you grow up kid can I be a woman you might you might sort of like you want to say I know no rules no right no wrong I'm free and you want to sort of show him that clip and then you want to show him like an old Wy coyote you know where he runs and he you know run he runs off the edge of the cliff and and he's like okay so these are the same this is just the same movie yes but so you can execute that um you can execute song lyrics so um I just did this with some students um at logos we pulled up um a song and regrettably it was by One Direction which I just discovered um they seem to be like the Backstreet Boys of the the modern day whatever they're prob they're obviously a big deal there's a lot of there was a lot of views on YouTube U but I was like oh boy and we just worked through it and especially with music right you know when you read the lyrics you're like oh my because sometimes the the soundtrack comports with the lyrics sometimes it doesn't sometimes it's deadly and this was like one of those songs so this particular song was was kind of just smooth and you know um disarming and yet it was about like a girl wearing a dress that her mom didn't like because it showed off everything that her mom didn't have and I was like oh oh so we're cutting her away from the herd we're cutting her away from her people from her Generations right and now you take her out and all this it's just very and when you do that with the students eyes just SL up they're like oh boy I'm like this they are coming for you like you you have to always have your guard up and and enjoy it like read it and then go oh this is what you're saying and then put it in terms like I'll just say it real plain like and then that hits um so so this is actually this is a really important point because what you're what you're going to have to do there is you're like what you just did is you translated you so here's what the song says and I'm going to translate I'm going to put that in more plain speech right this is actually what a lot of the satire stuff is is doing this is what Ezekiel is doing with the idolatry of Israel let me tell you what that idolatry actually is it's like you just you just watch something that you should have found appalling yeah and you didn't you didn't and I'm going to translate it and it's going to be an accurate translation and now you're going to find it appalling and then you're going to attack me so in class like I'm reading I was like so you know what he did is he looked there and said you're hotter than your mom and they were like that's creepy I'm like yeah it's super creepy and it's what he said you know they they explain to you say what the what the final is in that class okay so the final of that class uh and this has been a long-standing tradition so it wasn't my idea but it um the students will take their top song on Spotify and then we mix the British literature class the rhetoric class and the Apologetics and worldview class which is what you're teaching which is what I'm teaching and they they they blend all of those together and they take their top Spotify song and they have to incorporate what they've learned from all three classes into that their EXA Jesus of that song that was one of my wife came up with that one where where it's like because what's interesting is you engage kids on literature and they'll just give you the answer that you want right you engage them on their playlist and you're touching the apple of their eye and then and suddenly like this is this is what I I own this is my identity and then you get to the real heart of the matter so she would say all right what's the number one song on your playlist and yeah it's not Shakespeare so we're lowering the tone of Class A bit we're actually getting to the real heart of the matter but I think that once you once you get students to where they see that they care about it they start to they love that they they actually like this this notion that the Next Generation has to constantly be turned against their parents it doesn't have to be that way like they can actually like love learning your instincts your impulses and tastes and wanting to stand with you and they're they're going to be out finding other things that they want to refute now now of course I remember junior high it was Junior High in an English class we studied some Beatles lyrics which I Still Here Comes old flat top flat top he comes grooving up slowly unfortunately the class was just as dumb as the lyrics so it doesn't always doesn't always work and and to bring it to bring it sort of into the into that satire conversation one of the things my wife wants has said that she want wants our boys to get is um when you do the diagnosis and you see the stupid she wants them to learn to like not just get away but laugh at it mock it it need like like if you if you if the if the strategy is hey here's this enticing thing that's all well packaged and slick and and sexy and all this sort of stuff and you just try to sit get them to just straight up run away as opposed to analyzing it picking it apart and then what's what's the proper reaction what's if they they didn't recognize it what should they react it should be appalled or it should be derision yeah and in in the mo and the mockery and the Laughing has to be by faith and that's cultivated in the home by the parents going all making the full circle here that's why you need the flamethrower because you're really laughing about it and you're showing the Folly of it and indeed do you want those fools to come to back to Jesus Christ absolutely but your children are actually watching you not be afraid of evil y so we're not scared y all right but we are going to point it out and name it and then we're going to laugh because those people are going to fall into the pit that they're digging right they're digging that pit and you you you have to cultivate that and demonst straight that is like that's a key part of the education I remember you know remind me a story when I um kids were young Sam was probably five and we were at a Chipotle in Minneapolis and we this was you know I had I had seen a trans person trans trans person so there was a it was a guy doing a um poor imitation of being a woman who was serving us at the Chipotle and he's five and doesn't know any better and he so he he we're standing in line as they're making our burrito uh and and he looks at me and he says Dad is that a boy or a girl just kind of asking the innocent question and I know that there's an impul I could feel the impulse of just kind of embarrassment like oh no he's bringing this up and the biggest but in that moment the biggest thing I wanted to communicate to him is you're not the weird one for asking that question right like like like your question is an absolutely normal question and so I just bent down and said you know buddy that is a really good question let's go talk about it over there you know so I didn't want to make a I wouldn't trying to make a scene you wanted your burrito but I wanted your burrito and I didn't want them to spit in it uh so it but but it was I wasn't going to him asking the question there's a way I think that certain that you could respond to that that would make you it look like you're the EM you're the one who was embarrassed you're the one who doesn't want to make the scene and instead the thing you want to communicate is steadiness confidence Joy um and that yes kid you're you're on the right track for seeing this right you got you got something for us yeah uh it's my mic uh so last things we you mentioned one Kindle the other Kindle is Steven Wolf's uh the case for Christian nationalism yes absolutely free uh and then uh the last question I had was going into December so no quarter is over as of tomorrow right do you have any recommendations does uh like book recommendations or if you were to say what if someone was asking what is the Moscow mood is there a book that would capture that I I'm curious what you guys would answer I'll speak to that uh and then we can be done yeah mosc mood is um Advent like celebrate celebrate this um bless the mess out of your kids and have a jolly Spirit right get you some festive drinks going on Worship the Lord put worship at the center but then Rejoice that the Lord Jesus Christ indeed came to Earth and so find ways to cultivate that through gift giving um we got some friends around here I'll leave them nameless I guess so they get treasure in heaven heaven but I think it's a great practice they do a like a knock drop and dash okay and so they like they get the whole family they go to the grocery store buy a bunch of groceries for family in need in the church take all their kids with them knock on the door drop the groceries and take off running so I mean just snow dark fun like and I mean the kids when you incorporate that kind of spirit in the kids I mean they're just going to it's going to be a wonderful thing so the book recommendation Doug's book um was it God Rest You Mary just a great Advent meditation very short so after dinner you can read it read a portion of it and then cultivate the songs of Christmas so Advent songs um Christmas hymns there's just a ton of them the Kus has a bunch of them um but get those and just incorporate that into your family worship yeah amen Christmas is the time when the whole Evangelical World Turns post-millennial so we should write it okay Mariah Carey herself I mean just crying out about the lordship of Christ you know it's great other books recommendations I would I would Echo God bless you Mary I think that'd be the uh the one that hits the tone issue there's a multiple issues uh there worship and you got any book recommendations that's great okay uh I'll throw one sorry it's not canon I don't I don't think it is tilted whirl I think it's Thomas Nelson n Nelson right so not from tilt World by by Nate um is a great encapsulation of the kind of chestertonian wood housian um mood that per per permeates all of the things and so um if you're looking for something especially and if you know if you got a teenager um I'd say that's a really good book to give to a teenager that's going to maybe resonate in in ways that um that other books might might not they might not get so with that we have in we reached the end of No Quarter November and we're sad to see it go but the advantage that we have is that just like Christmas it will come around again but I do look forward with trepidation to what is going to burn next year that's right that's right me teasers if you have if you have any they they assign things to me that's right and I've just drawn the line at helicopters uhuh you're not you're not you're not burning any helicopters nothing that requir going off well if you have any suggestions you can go ahead and drop those in the comments for the Canon guys they'll they'll sip through those and come up you know who knows maybe they'll come up with something really good but uh thank you for joining us all all month long uh we're grateful for all those who who've watched and listened and bought and and gotten all the free books um and until we see again love Jesus love your families and Hoist the Colors hi

Channel: Canon Press

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Keywords: canon press, douglas wilson, doug wilson, canon press interview

Id: uubsY53p-pI

Length: 59min 35sec (3575 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 30 2023