Time For an Intervention? | Doug Wilson & Friends (w/ ND Wilson, Rachel Jankovic, & Rebekah Merkle)

yes yeah what what do you want to say want to talk we're live hey welcome sisters um more importantly we're here to do an intervention of our father this is this is we we figured the best way to have an intervention with your dad is on a live stream we got called up to come do an intervention by mate we're here to talk about how your patience has harmed us you need to be a little less patient less patient I think that I think that you know that all three of your children are less patient that's than you are and how did you go wrong where where was it that uh provoked all the impatience in your children watching the patience yeah probably maybe it was our viral mother our yes I made a big break into uh victim stardom let's start first by saying poor mom wish she could be here but she's sacrificially babysitting yes well sacrificially is wrong she would much rather be babysitting be here if she was if she was that's true it's selfishly babysitting yes but if if she were here she would just be telling us to be nice yeah what what we need to nice we need to do is guard ourselves against Envy I mean I saw that clip that went viral yesterday it's like 2.7 million views now and you worked hard with the flamethrower for a mere 300,000 this B and this baby cost [Laughter] money all script writing and we said we're going to be inflammatory Nana queen of cheesy potatoes go she she just walks in and talks about you know nonchalantly about a Patty wonan but it was a long time ago too that that that clip was fished out of the archives of a long time ago 15 years ago or something very thoroughly through the archives to find that but so it's 15 years ago I just think there's that much gold full 20 years before that so but meanwhile I thought it was a really interesting I didn't find out about it until it was just imagine if they knew about the time you gave us bungee cords for Christmas just imagine that I mean what were you doing that's all I could afford or or the time that for like when Mom would leave the house in Dad's way of entertaining us was to we brought all the socks and bald them up and he would sit on the couch and throw socks at us as we walked through that we tried to get through the living room without getting hit by socks SLI or we did a turkey shoot from behind the couch in ter in terms of perpetuating the cycle I can say I did fully play the sock game with my children we also and the cycle of violence was passed on to the next Generation very so let's I mean this the sock game was mom was gone dad would roll up all the socks in his sock drawer I probably made you guys roll them up well you would tell us to go hunt part of the the socks let me just say proving your fundamental selfishness you made us roll all the socks and then we would get behind the couch or like we we did kind of like a duck hunt version but there was like a walking by with a slipper balancing then Dad would try to knock the slipper off of the top of our head with a rolled up sock AC or we would just be doing Pop Goes the Weasel behind the couch and' be trying to hit us so we'd be remember though that's when I learned it wasn't it how you had to fold socks in the Navy you had to roll them up projectiles so we so we learned at that time how in the Navy one rolls a sock y or one rolls a sock for the best really best uh throwing and so that was those were good times dad has hit me with a sock we need to talk about this so let's while I laughed myself sick you hit me with the sock but I have come to in my old age understand that this was understand this abusive yes yes and is why all the dogs die in my books I when I looked I went briefly last night after I found out that I had become such a such such a victim such a victim no you got your get out of jail free card it was an amazing hard time I had and I just and I this doesn't help by the way cuz you posed as a victim our entire childhoods so now that you finally have achieved it yeah finally I it's what I was hoping for all along it's what I've been striving for um but now that it's finally come to me I don't know what to do with it vitim is thrust upon some people yeah when I saw it I was like yeah it was like an it was a it was a shock an empathy flash mob that would like to see Mom rot in jail well that's the thing it was so funny it was like the Wazoo the tender it's that The Tender Mercies of the wicked are cruel and you have all these people being poor Rachel when she was three I hope CPS took her and her mother is ring in jail like I'm appreciate I appreciate that doesn't sound like kindness that you're offering me here like this sounds like a really you mean I could have been in the Foster system that time when I got grumpy at the Busby's house that time let's TI them into this scandal at the efree pastor's house let's get them let get them in I at the Busby's house you had a bad attitude and mom made you control your emotions how dare she but this is the thing that really struck me just I did not I have not I did not dive deep I blew passed a lot of this so I don't know I don't even know the bulk of the arguments however the thing that really stood out to me about this is I was like well you people I think you're cruel parents like these are the people who are all advocating for if your little girl says I think I'm a boy to chemically make her infertile forever if you think that my loving faithful tender Christian mother was cruel well then we're equal I think I think you're cruel and you apparently think that my life is have a fight this is related this is related actually to uh something the penny a certain epistemic Penny dropped for me today on this uh oh because um I thought we talked about that you're going to have to keep doing the interventions okay whatever whatever you intervene on I've got more so so um BOS vision of of course piled into the did oh did he he's still here I always thought he was like a hologram that he might at some point just be shut down go ahead though I want to fin he or his similitude um piled in and uh Julie Roy and he were going back and forth talking about these nut jobs in Idaho okay and that was these are nut jobs there salted cashews so the thing that struck me is that America is divided and we've known that for years and it's divided clean down the middle and the two factions that are aware of the conflict we leaving out the big middle that's being pushed back and forth but the self-conscious um woke types and the conservative act activists they these are two rival definitions of insanity right and and the Rival definitions of insanity it works this way we think that if you lived in a world where nobody restrains their emotions you're living in an asylum it's it's hell it's it's just so we even worse an asylum with no straight jackets and no cell doors yeah just uh so we would Define that as Insanity bed just bedum total pandemonium that's Insanity for us no restraint on our passions or emotions or affections whatever and they are defining it the same way only the opposite they think that any discipline of squelching of defying of contradiction of the passions is insanity so um so consequently never ever ever train the horse yeah never but but this is the thing is that they should be like like I guess this isn't a more serious way to en engage with this but there were a ton of comments like poor little baby who just was expressing a very natural feeling well there are so many natural feelings that civil civilization relies on people governing and suppressing and like mothers and this is the thing when I said I think that they're cool take it way back from trans transgender type things to just imagining some of these people who are expressing so much empathy with me being my mother being like lean into these feelings and let me wrap you up in a snuggie and never control yourself and go ahead lay here on the kitchen floor screaming and kicking and frothing at the mouth but the reason that they want to do that is because the grown-up parents want to do that and the like in their own version and the and they do at the kids too and the gift and the reason it's so comic to me to hear people talking about mom like she was a crazy crazy Tyrant manipulative whatever is that we grew up with the enormous gift of a mother who required Obedience of herself yeah and because she would apologize if she like if if my tone of voice was unkind you know like forgive me for having you know whatever so she enforced things obviously as that story she told with us but she enforced them with herself primarily and so a lot of people to me cuz I was a boy I I should say here that one of one of the things I want to say I want to I want to see if I can generate as many terrible like outof context quotes as possible in this one live stream so how about this Dale donut we've both been know that's your description of unbelievers like no not just constantly we drive around with more your description of Jeff Jeff bezos's mistress now featured in right but anyways I would just say that in our home the girls were disciplined and I never was let's grab that run with it uh also I would say a qualific a qualification I might get to a story but a qualification would be Nate was disciplined plenty he just didn't notice I will say this about Mom though I this is the mom who I I remember the day that I was bored out of my mind and refusing to be in bed for my nap and she was trying to counsel in the living room and she told me to go be busy and I decided to put 40 Plus Nails in my wall like over 40 straight a poster was it the Seattle Seahawks and I love the Seahawks and I love my poster but with all the shortterm thinking of a child I went straight through it cuz that was the line and it reached that and I kept going cuz I had more nails at the end of that I was not disciplined like I put more than 40 Nails in the wall when I was supposed to I want to just clarify because you you were a boy that you were not disciplined is we're the ones who gave you the tool chest for Christmas you gave me the little toolbox and mom told me to go keep busy and so because she told me to go keep busy she felt like also because she heard you making a ton of noise she thought things were going well she thought things were good because it was when it was things were silent that I was really dangerous so we could go ahead it's November we're not supposed to have qualifications so you can go ahead and say that I was disciplined plenty I too am a victim and I should not be blamed for anything I've ever done he's a little jealous that I Rose to start them as a VI I I do just think we should like get these out of context quotes like about the time we all robbed the bank and Pew allop you know do you remember when I stole the manuscript for loving the little years off of Christine peek's hard drive yes cuz she wrote it and I took it and I published it as my own words she's not gotten one Thin dime what did you do he robbed a bank I did that what you no we all did we robbed we did together I'd also like to say that as an organized crime family we should probably live stream less it just doesn't seem like the approach I don't know criminal Empire the bidens do well yeah okay they're they're on TV all the time I was wondering if I should talk about the time that prince Andrew took me to that island in the oh my word you know I think I think the intervention we need yeah let's you and I in good luck see if you can find the brakes over there we haven't found them yet this far into our life say we've been looking but I would say though some other comments in it was that no way did we have a functional relationship like I guarantee that little girl does not speak to her mother anymore whatever thought well you know what we have a a singularly non-manipulative emot we do not em unable mother and everything and I love that people are like they only say that they're happy because they don't know yet how Darkly abused they actually are we we used to joke well there's something to joke about we we used to joke about we used a little U wooden spatula usually for and we used to joke about having a holster made for Nancy because she was good I'll I'll take responsibility for that particular the need for that joke that's true but Mom said earlier today she was like well it was it was my turn finally to get in trouble actually she said said it's about time I doubt she noticed I she didn't we told I mean she was talk about it because she's not on Twitter but she was like well it was probably my turn it's a privilege and then the funny part is she said it really hasn't I really haven't nothing like this has happened to me your dad gets in trouble but I don't I said Mom I think you said the same thing when the vice article came out about you and she was like oh that did happen didn't it I was like yeah you've already done B targeted mom you done this is this is not your first rodeo you just didn't worry so hard about the first one that you forgot it so I mean feces smeared on the house and they used condoms in the mailbox and somebody broke into the house and stole a plate the best the best ever was that was a weird that that should we should say that was a weird one someone broke into the house the U left Footprints Footprints across and the table was set for a dinner coming up a big Sunday dinner a Sunday dinner and they came in and took one plate yeah and walked out and left the scene I don't think that was the best the best one was when we came home to find the suspicious photo journalist who did not know it was Daylight Saving because that that was the best they usually this is before before the smartphone just updates you about the time they thought we were all going to be in church right now so it's it's a big telephoto lens creeping around on on our property in the middle of the grass like in the middle of the grass camera taking pictures and we knew who she was so it made it much funnier cuz we came home on time but surprisingly early for her and the thing you talked to her right yeah just remember you saying hey what you doing in my parents la and she goes I'm not and she's like literally in the middle of the grass with the camera and she was like I'm not I'm not on their property and it was just a beautiful moment was a good time good time but that that was the best use of daylight savings that I've experienced generally I'm opposed to Daylight savings except for but that was good in that in that particular case I I do think there's so much funny like so much humor in our childhood like so much laughter and Story Time mhm and just party like it was just a lot of poor kid party for for a long time po poor kid party go ahead and laugh itn't it's funny but I will I will say like when I think about like so the the first time when people started to pay attention media wise uh after like Canon like Canon press was started in the living room you know of our I don't know if I was our duplex at the time um or where like the whether the Autumn Shadow Autumn Shadow your bedroom the desk your bedroom on East Street East Street okay but Autumn's Autumn Shadow was the very first thing you did it wasn't Canon but it was your it was Dr gumi's book maybe I don't remember which was first one I was aware of was was just a poor Shadow which was kind of like a creep we should reissue that one but it's so that was being published you were getting into this you started writing U articles in the Daily News remember we started getting hate mail people hated you locally but the first time you like a bunch of attention started coming from outside one of the first times I was aware of it at least was after you started accs uh in 94 and schools all over the country started sprouting up copying logos and now hundreds and hundreds of schools both in accs and outside modeling off of logos hundreds of thousands don't forget to call it my Empire yeah yeah which you of course control tuition tuition and all of them comes well is transferred directly into your offshore accounts um and you almost made as much sh accs as you have from all those payments from the ATF but but it's um so I remember a journalist coming from World magazine which existed at the time and came out to the house we were building um which was because you were very hip and Cutting Edge and set all Trends all reclaimed Lumber um because we helped because we helped tear down a shed on the University of Idaho campus and we were we were building out out of this stuff remember he came out I was ear ear high school and I was packing quickrete to our disaster of a slab um and so I was I was packing concrete and then this article came out and it was very complimentary yeah and it and it was the first time like I showed up yeah you know by name in print yeah and it was this really like weird comment cuz the the journalist was a nice guy but he was a small guy and he he did this big thing about how I was packing 50 pound bags of quickrete like it was nothing and I got crucified by my friends for this I like they were like 50 pounds like it's like on the football team I didn't ask him to say I was like it was 85 they were 85 lbs up up and down the ladder but it it was it was the worst and the thing is to this day it's way more comfortable to be hated it's a way I would much prefer people throw mud pies than do any kind of groeling any kind of I mean my my favorite fan conversations have been with people who came up and started swearing at me you know it's like people who are mad the people who come up and are like massive fans it's just awkward I don't know what to do I'm like you have a a tomato you could throw it' be a little more comfortable I would I would Echo that it's it's much more difficult to know what to do or to say with people who are effusive yeah and appreciative I we appreciate the appreciation but you still don't know what to say or I don't think it's appreciation I think it's an unhealthy kind of because when somebody comes and says hey your book was super helpful for me and whatever I'm like thank the Lord great where are you from moving on I don't need to actually it doesn't upset me and it doesn't what was your favorite part it's also not which thing touched you the most oh if you would tweet that and tag me I would feel better no I I'm not it's great when people want to pass on that God used something that you did hoping it would help someone that it helped him that's great but it's it's a imbalanced LEL if somebody feels an imbalanced level of no qualifications tell me what I should do I whatever you say I love I'm like something's wrong well but we've noticed over the years that those are also the biggest haters later they're the people who like well it's kind of like with the little kid where the the line between just laughing and crying is almost infantes like once they get into an emotional thing it can switch to any emotion pretty easily I feel like but you've got to that's why you got to discipline for that stuff it's why you got to call people D Donuts just when you get somebody who's like an over-the-top fan sometimes that's just as easy for them to become an over-the-top hater like not all the time but not even pay attention to what you're actually trying to say but to just during one of our early wasn't wasn't the first rodeo but during one of the early ones I yeah back when we were mutton busting yeah with a little plastic helmet I still am I'm permanently three so um uh we had this explosion over something and I Amazon was very fresh then and I went on looking for a book and then they suggested to me this other book and I found this whole cottage industry that was dedicated to to snarls in the church yeah and one of I so I ordered some and there were some quite good books but one of them uh said a pastor when he was called to a new church and he was candidating at the church he said I always learn to watch the person who picked me up at the airport ah you know the the pastor this pastor is going to come in and he's going to fix everything and I'm going to and I'm here with the grievance the problem I've got the grievance truck I've arrived with your real agenda yes and I've I want to Quick recruit him to to fill him in on how things what things are going on around here yeah and I learn also learned that it's like pastors all over the country are all putting on a production of Hamlet everybody's doing the same play the same it's it's the same play and so you could get a a a at a conference of pastors one of the pastors could say who who's playing ailia in your production who's who's playing there's nothing new Under the Sun who's who's ponia in your production and everybody's got one yeah yeah they do they do it's it's really astonishing that's hilarious I do think one of the things that is a weird family culture thing that you probably gave us but I don't know how much it was nature and how much it was nurture but this is this is I think shared by all of us what Nate was saying more comfortable with criticism than the other way around is that it's not um sometimes I will get because Instagram is particularly a field where women work it for a particular kind of sex Buzz yeah there's a there's an exchange going on on Instagram which I have found out if you post a selfie everyone will love you if I post a youo mama it's amazing I I don't know who needs to hear this I don't know who needs to hear this but mama your heart your heart is doing great things for whoever he doesn't get you and you're okay but I have to say a lot of the time I do believe encouragement needs to be said so it's not like it's I'm not saying it's an untrue thing I might post something that I think needs to be said but it is encouraging everyone will tag a ton of people I will get a huge flood of new followers so then you have to do a little Department of hell no and then they will all leave like you just kind of swing back and forth between whatever but what I was going to say is I do get from women pretty often questions about how do you even handle all of the like doesn't it all just go wildly to your head all of the thank yous and the encouragement or the people who appreciate what you said and that is the thing I thought that's interesting because I think a lot of people are in social media for that exact what if what if it all went to your head to the total Peg by sixth grade so then you can't really I think the thing that I actually meant is not liking that kind of yeah that like I I enjoy very much hearing that things have been fruitful but God has used something ways so like when a woman walks up to me and says guess what because of your podcast I made a Pie and her husband who was next we went that to me was just like God is good like I love that that's wonderful thank you for telling me I nothing feels questionable about that kind of I feel like I've done my work here see you later but but if it is just the Fanfare that's not what we're looking for and it's not something that is encouraging even it's something that is just awkward just well it's just a fact of it well I think I think to the what you were saying earlier Becca about how quickly the emotions can change if people are steered by their emotions if the wagon is hitched to emotions out front it doesn't much matter if those emotions are currently in a good place those emotions can be in a good place going towards a going towards a good place super dangerous but they will as soon as the fs change because the days are shorter there's not as much sun sunshine vitamin D is down those emotions will change and they're going to you know inevitably take the wagon with it and so you just can't trust any anyone who's leading that way anybody who who is the illustration I feel forward that way your emotions everybody's emotions fluctuate they go up and they go up and down and if you build your life if you build your life on top of the emotions then when they go up and down every Everything is destabilized Everything goes up and down but if you uh build the foundation is cold hard concrete of Covenant commitments this is what we said we were going to do this is what the Bible says to do whether or not you feel like it that's the yeah the concept of duty duty yeah responsibility and Duty in small moments what you when you have a little kid who's being annoying and just spilled the milk you as a parent still have a duty in that in that exactly and so your emotions are built on top of that and they go up and down well the foundation yeah stays where it ought to be and then after a while your emotions say you know this is not getting us anywhere you know I I need to settle down and that's what it is to discipline your um discipline your emotions which is not the same thing as nuking your emotions or or insulting your emotions or not having them so it's like I I compare emotions to little kids and people think that if your kids are well behaved that you don't have kids right if if your kids boring children you're boring children yes ma'am and and they go do it well that that's so terrible because they're not alive or spontaneous or whatever no they're disciplined and they can work much more productively they can play much more fruitfully I also think they that your emotions actually are because if they are being faithful if they're if they are being consistent with your duties and faithful they are in a way truer which means that in many ways you experience things far more strongly when you are like in a good way if that makes sense not not wild emotions of depression or whatever but you actually feel if you're disciplining your own self and your own emotions your love for your children has it's not just something that blew by me today that I enjoy joyed it's something that is actually like your love is expressed through obedience and doing things that the Lord honors and this and it fuels a Godly emotion that you should have and not it's not like so should I say something that that will excite some push back initially push back from my sisters per chance frombody from anybody so let's say let's say out of all these hurt people that pile into these comments and this is abusive and terrible and also the hurt Bots let's include the hurt Bots the hurt Bots hurt Bots poor little AI yeah the hurt people who are who are managing a hundred different handles and and the Bots yeah all the all the hurt things the Russians um so um let's say out of all those people I don't speaking pastorally here I don't have any doubt that a number of them grew up in straight laced conservative homes that were no fun at all yeah right and right that so dad was severe mom was severe everything was cinched tight and nobody ever laughed about anything and they think so when they hear something like what we're talking about discipline or um high standards or required obedience or whatever they filter that through the grid of their experience and they think they they think there's no way that that's not exactly like what I grew up with um but the thing the the thing is there is such a thing as goo families where you have everything is BL all over the place just emotional sprawl and then you have the people who are buttoned up no no emotions at all uh immigrants from Northern Scandinavia and stuff everything really hard yeah they they say we're unemotional but they leave out the fact that anger is an emotion yeah and so they're exp yeah those are all emotions and and so if someone says yeah well that's the that's I've seen that with my own eyes well I have too plenty of times I've I've seen plent plenty of the ex evangelicals were actually driven there yeah no and actually lived through horrific family life deible I would just like to say for the least the last five seconds there's been a whole lot of empathy here yeah that's right well what you were about to say something else so the the point is um I would say that the the tell the thing that you want to um look for is is this a family that laughs together yeah um and so so for example I've sometimes had um pretty gnarly marriage situations in uh in my office and and sometimes it's they're in the same Planet different worlds they just can scarcely speak to each other everything is toxic everything's wrong but then you have people come in and there's marriage problems and there there's hurt and stuff to work through but they still laugh at one another's jokes yeah yeah right there's hope and I think when I see that I think okay I've got handles to work with you're still there's affection and rep there's affection Rapport you get one another um and and there is and it shows up in in to that's really important and I think that especially with this whole month and you were talking at the beginning of the month about apocalypse proofing families and wanting to like hand out stuff how do you get a a resilient family or family that loves each other and I as I key is dad jokes dos of dad jokes I think the the key is and I look I look back on know I was like interesting I like the uh go all the way back early early and I think one of the things that's unique here was unique in our home at the dinner table and so on was the the ability to have really loud rockus debate and disagreement mhm without people getting in their feels or getting like feel forward and yeah and if if there if people did cross a line there were apologies made but we are capable of having very loud long disagreements I mean I know all three of us have across the decades gone at you really hard on things infant baptism was so yeah my sisters are still the but the but the point the point is there that the the ability to have an argument with a friend the ability to have an argument with a sibling with a parent where there is no doubt of the affection it's all the whole argument takes place in an ecosystem of love and affection and safety like it was a very safe home there was not volatile parents orer discipline discipline was never a violent or unsettling no but I think that those homes you're talking about with the like Ultra strict Ultra you know rigid at least my experience with the ones I've seen more closeup um they fought like n other it's like they might not laugh together but man did they fight MH and that is a huge difference you know what I mean like like there's no there wasn't Comm other than not all of us have an anger problem with the baseball so it was like it was emotions but not the I broke windows with apples and golf balls and footballs and lacrosse balls there no anger I think I was in seventh grade when you became poed Baptist yeah so that's not I think you were eth because I was a senior was definitely a junior high was not really smart I was not admirable an eighth grade girl is not a theological Powerhouse no but I didn't buy it right like you became and I don't think you did either I don't remember but I remember you became pain to Baptist we're having dinner table conversations and you're explaining it and I had really big insights to say but Dad that just seems so Catholic I think that was the bulk of my theological argument um but as we talked a lot we T I was just like baptizing a baby is just we do it at the river we go down to the river you know and we do this is the way we do it and so but you didn't it wasn't like tough luck Rachel you are paid Baptist now you were like we'll keep talking about it we'll keep we'll keep discussing it there were no hard feelings in any direction and I discovered that I was in fact persuaded when I went to school and a boy in my classes yeah well your dad believes that you should baptize babies and I was like well this is the thing scripture scripture does require it and then I realized that all those weeks of discussion at the dinner table I had been Thor thoroughly persuaded but I was just holding out on my high hill of its Catholic and I won't bend on this issue at home at home but but when I realized at school that I too am a PO Baptist well that's how I ended up getting convinced was I would go home and argue at the dinner table as a Baptist then I'd go to school and would present all the arguments that I had just heard last night two friends who were also coming at me about it and so at school I was a p Baptist at home my true self was a Baptist until I talked myself out of arguments and I would just like to say upon first presentation I said that makes sense and I was on board I will say like this is he was always the preferred uh less emotional we'll say just a less some of us some of us were led by our feels sometimes but I would say also as as far as the ability to have conflict and friendship and affection to disagree like we disagreed all the time like we get together now and we still we Rumble and wrestle around things because that's what we do for fun then it's although incidentally I grew up in a family like that yeah so um debating was a was a indoor same for my kids and I know for your kids like the the idea of debating at the table is a is a big thing I like I had a parent meeting last night for basketball and talked about how I wanted my players to have opinions and not just be docel MH but if I could like actually if they have any thoughts any criticisms any concerns I need them to come say it like into my eyes like any anything that's important to me and if they send a concern via a proxy they are cut like if I hear from your mom you're concerned when you're a 17-year-old boy like it's it needs to be you and and you won't ever get in any kind of trouble for that if it's you and you disagree with me and we have a conversation there's not going to be any issues U but your mom means that you're you're planting seeds back there you're undermining that relationship and so on so on that note I have to ditch this and turn this into Doug and daughters if you two could complete the intervention I have a call I have to get off in the background I'm going to go be an extra an uncredited extra in the background of this live stream he's got important things he's got important people to talk to no I don't know I don't know about that it's well I'm going to try anyway see try to behave have fun have fun phone call have fun well I'm glad to be here as a guest on what have you I I actually had a thing I think we should talk about unless there's something else suppos that ties in with all this cuz we were what we were talking about is the concept of Christian Fellowship but we just weren't using that word right now but every time that when I am talking with people about the way your home should be or the aroma of your home it is fellowship and that's not I wouldn't have said that that's defined by the aroma of people who argue with each other and but it's defined by the aroma of people who acknowledge their own sin and get things right and well because like we did debate all the time but if someone was unkind or somebody lost their cool then somebody put it right yeah yeah the the foundation is coin a fellowship we're all together we're in Fellowship nobody has a grievance against someone else they might have an argument they want to present to someone else but there's no no grievance No Malice or backbiting or that that had to be uh AB utterly absent and if we can Circle back around there's no conceivable way for it to be utterly absent unless you discipline for it um and it has to start early when the kids are little uh they come in they come running into the room whining or complaining or tattling on somebody and you let's stop right there let's run back down the hall and come back in again with a completely different attitude let me see your cheerful face yeah that and someone's going to say but um you're they need to mean it they have to be sincere and I would say well give me a couple minutes and it'll be sincere that is funny but I would say a lot of the time the thing that and I think that this is a behind some of the misunderstanding is that Fellowship is such a rare thing in the world right now that it goes in multiple different directions Christians have no experience of it right so there are Christian families that are like what does it mean what does it feel like what does it look like and they've never experienced it so they actually don't think it's possible right so they think that we are in many ways living in like a weird Fantasy Land you know like we're talking like we've experienced something that they're like but we're Christians and I've never experienced anything like that before in my life say is that the houses that had so many rules and so many standards and so many whatever apparently didn't have standards about your attitude because it was like there was there was so much fighting or so much anger or hatred honestly in in I think a lot of them that they didn't experience Fellowship they didn't know what it was like to not have angry parents fear-based parenting so like if you went back and look at that episode where M what Mom is saying she did if she was upset with me for complaining when she got there if she was fearful that I didn't like her and that I liked my friend better than her if she was or if she was like oh how could you and then discipline me that I can see the argument that that's manipulative abusive nasty but I know Mom and I know my childhood and it was none of those things like it was actually and Mom and I have um now had 40 almost 43 years of a very sweet relationship with no periods of uh estrangement or no periods of estrangement straight through my teen years mom and I were still friends like nothing like it's been a sweet relationship but you could put that same situation in what is actually normal for most people okay and it would be yucky right that's I think is a thing that so I think um I think we have a question oh no way we blocked him Scotland yeah uh he says hey he says hello hello back hi knock yeah uh a couple of the comments and then even just online is it there's a sense in which they hear this and think don't you know Proverbs aren't promises feels feels very uh Prosperity Gospel of all of you yeah Pro Proverbs are not ukian it's not like um a statement like all triangles have three sides Pro Proverbs are General statements um if someone's a lazy bum he's going to have a poor harvest if if you never change the oil in your car you're going to have engine trouble is sometimes you luck out sometimes that doesn't happen but Proverbs are generally true so consequently if uh if you don't discipline your son proverb says you hate your son and sometimes you look out uh sometimes it's not doesn't end in disaster but it it is nevertheless generally true that if you train up a child in the way you should go when he's old you will not depart from it not because you're still hovering over him cracking a whip either right which is the weird uh it's like I guess I keep coming back to this that people don't actually know what it's like to be in a Christian family where there is not a lot of unconfessed sin and I think that that's the what I was goingon to say is Mom was not fear-based disciplining but rather Faith she was trusting the Lord right to grow me up to be a faithful Christian through her efforts and never does a Christian parent really think that what they're doing is the magic key to making that happen they think that what they're doing is honoring God who will bless faithfulness yeah if God doesn't bless it it's not going to happen nothing we can't build the house if he is not in it but nobody has this kind of objection when it's like you know you have an apple tree and you're wondering how should I prune my apple tree so that it will be most fruitful and you get on to the YouTubes and you watch the little here's how you go about pruning a fruit tree you don't get a lot of people getting upset and saying Proverbs aren't promises you know like how do you know that if you prune it it won't it's like we all understand that like there are certain things that you do that produce a certain kind of result and we understand it in like every area of life and and I would flip it around in Proverbs particularly when you have a lazy son for example uh or a dissolute son or a son who doesn't work in Harvest Proverbs tells us that this is shameful for the parents right but if it if uh if what they're saying is true that these aren't promises and it's sort of a crapshoot and it doesn't it doesn't matter how hard you work or how much you pray or what you it that does doesn't just doesn't matter because election doesn't care about any of that um and then if something goes south well why should I feel shame then yeah right uh well I I feel shame because a connection because it's a disruption of the fellowship Bond right that ought to be a healthy one but is in this circumstance a diseased one and it's true that shame would be the totally wrong word to use if there was no connection between the two you could say it's sad for his parents or you know whatever but shame is a very I mean it's different thing tied to your own some kind of work there was a woman who was really upset at me once for teaching Works righteousness as you know I do always always Rachel believes you can work your way to heaven always always have firmly on the record here just like to I heard even exil is doing the same thing Nate left and here we are providing our own naughty sound bites uh however I do not believe that but I never have but if you ever talk about obedience the ladies flip out flip out and uh but somebody said to me in all dead seriousness and she said listen it does not matter to God if I feed thousands of people or if I kill all of my neighbors because it's all Grace you know you're like pardon but but that's the funniness of trying to say there's nothing literally nothing we should do you know yeah Pro tip that's not how you Guard Grace no so it's like a lot of scripture is totally pointless if if if that was the case this is very dogy ex Jesus that I shouldn't be entering into on live broadcast but Dad can shut me down if I'm wrong um we should have a open a line for Ben to call a day he hears of it and cancel out what she she's wrong no I was thinking about this the other day because of one of these little dust UPS where if Rachel and I ever start saying here's how a Christian woman not to behave you do get a little cloud of people saying you rest in Christ you do not work you should be resting and suddenly I was thinking about how many times Jesus heals on the Sabbath in just a flagrant way that seems like he only ever heals on the Sabbath just despite everyone sometimes um but when he says take up your mat and walk and you know the guy goes off doing it and all the other people are like he should be resting he is not supposed to you know what I mean like I I realize that's not the point of the he's been lying on that map for years I think he's rested already but just that parallel of upset people saying you should be resting when it's like Jesus himself said take up your mat and walk or Jesus said here's how you should behave Jesus said here's what a Christian looks like and everybody's like stop I really love the ti little cycle of stop telling people that they have to whatever confess their sin or or lay down their lives for their family or stop telling them whatever it is and then they say because all they have to do is look to Christ and I'm like which is a thing that you need to do and when you do it when you look to Christ and of course it's only by his grace that we ever can look to him in faith it's like it's such a funny like stop telling people they have to do something they must look to Christ and rest in Christ which is a posture that requires you to do something like you got to put that bitterness down you got to do you know well on top basically I I think this is a root confusion that a lot of modern evangelicals have about the relationship of grace and works um there is such a thing as Works righteousness where someone's trying to climb up a ladder to heaven right the there are people who do that and there are antinomians who want to rest in Grace look to Christ alone and it doesn't change anything about their life they uh they're they're not taking care of their kids they're not teaching they're not they're they're not doing anything what are you doing in there I'm looking to Christ um well the Bible says in Titus that instruct the people to be zealous for good works um we are in Ephesians God we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works so we're not saved by good works but we are saved to Good Works which he prepared in advance for us to walk in which makes it funnier to say rest rest don't walk in those well and it's just I'm just picturing a crowd nearby saying how dare you when you're supposed to be resting you know what I mean like it's like we see those crowds in the New Testament but they weren't the good guys yeah right and so basically how how is it possible for God's workmanship to fight the Workman while he you know you're on the bench and he's preparing you fitting you out for the good works which he prepared for you to do and you start thinking of the Workman working on you on the bench as some sort of legalist because he's he's going to try to get you to do something yeah and so then you start fighting him or fighting people who remind you to cooperate with the Workman a dark place to be really this is what he made you for and and so this goes back to I one of you girls thought that we needed a u like a mayag repairman logic uh oh I did yeah back in that yeah yeah where we need just someone a logic intervention man with a little cap and a and a service coat and when someone's in the middle of well if you emphas if you teach obedience if that word comes out of your mouth then you are teaching women or anyone you think you saved yourself yeah you you're binding consciences binding consciences yeah all of that Stepford Wives why why isn't why isn't well in Romans 6 uh we are saved we're not under law we're under grace but that whole verse says for sin shall not be your master for you're not under law you're under grace everybody thinks that being under grace means that you get to sin and and they think that being under law means that you you can't sin you don't get to that comes out in one of our wild Evangelical cultural norms which is to refer to the days that you don't read your Bible as a Grace day like they're like I'm going to give myself I think a lot of this though weirdly comes full circle back to the emotional control thing because I think a lot of times the people who are mad about this they probably could pass a theology exam just with flying colors but what happened is they got their feelings hurt yeah because they felt convicted and they felt stung and then they sort of seek refuge in the victim thing again which is like you shouldn't be binding my conscience you're you look at the villain that you are and it's not not actually an intellectual problem as much as it is an emotional problem and they haven't figured out how to be honest with their own motivations subject them to scripture and maybe I think it's part of it on for Christian wives and mothers the job is so enormous it really is an overwhelming job NeverEnding that the problem is women who can't be kind of I guess I would say it's the female counterpart to the Jolly Warrior the the willingness to go to battle that might kill you but still laughing and and willing to be a failure and think it's okay that you're a failure because you know that God called you to something that's much bigger than you are and in his grace our meager efforts are made much bigger than they are you know like we're we're trying to do something and he makes it bigger and better but it's a weird emotional cycle because Mom guilt is like a thing people talk like it's it whole thing you know this oh Mom guilt cuz I didn't do a birthday cake or I didn't do whatever and I think it's a weird emotional cycle where women don't have anywhere to put that kind of I'm a I'm a failure because I got behind on the laundry or I did whatever and then they uh instead of being like Oh Lord make me better at this you know like I'm going to keep I'm going to keep coming and think it's funny and not get worked up about it they go in this whole like someone mentioned homemade bread and I'm spiraling out of control because I don't feel like I could do it and you're saying I have to and it makes me feel guilty and it and it is it's a weird cycle of not knowing what it is to be kind of a good soldier for Jesus like a good like we're going to keep going keep and not because we're so on top of everything there are a lot of of full-grown mothers that you do wish you could do the thing like you would to a little three-year-old which is get their chin and say look in my eyes yeah you're going to not do that we have another question yeah maybe we could end with if if someone who's just learning today that emotions were something you could have trained out or it's not just up to chaos to decide right how those things go what what's something how would you encourage them not only with their family but even themselves so I would I I would actually start with the latter part so let's say ah my kids are all teenagers now and they're kind of up and down emotionally and I'm just now learning that we could have addressed that more effectively when they were little and isn't the concrete already dry well no sanctification is never sanctification is never Out Of Reach but the best thing you can do is uh the chances are pretty good if your kids are sort of wobbly or rickety emotionally then you and your husband you and your wife were probably in a similar spot and instead of telling your kids to straighten up and fly right show them how it's done say okay we we need to we need to give ourselves to learning these lessons ourselves and modeling for our kids how to learn this lesson after the concrete is dry right or and it's not really dry we can really you know uh the Lord can Jackhammer it up and a super simple thing for like if you're a grown woman who thinks that your emotions are totally Rogue and you have no handle on them and it's depressing it's a good idea to start when you're not having an emotional meltdown start in a moment where nothing is happening other than you're sitting there having a calm moment of reflection on how you don't control your emotions like have you're like having that moment and in that moment do things like Express respect to your husband thank him for something Express like I appreciate your work or express love and affection for your children like these are the things that I love about you let me tell you what I think God gave us in you that's such a gift and then Express gratitude like just don't and don't try to go on any wild rides on your on it just start working towards like it's kind of like a surveyor going out and putting some stakes in the ground like we have a big field here but we could put one here that says this is a good this is part of the what should be here well and I think too I mean if you imagine some big massive overgrown Tangled hedge or something you can still get in there and start cleaning out some of the things that don't need to be there and training the other ones and stuff so it seems like often your emotional collapses are entirely predictable so if you know the thing that is going to make you do it identify that and then just start working on that one that's like weeding out the one like we don't need to have this part of the Bush we're going to get rid of that one and like you're saying here's some like simple things to start chipping away I was going to say if we're talking about emotional imbalances and here we are gathered right before Thanksgiving and if there are ladies out there like there you could probably get out of whiteboard and write out the potential that you have uh coming up what's likely to be a thing and if you know yourself to be out of control right now start working on what is what is likely to cause that could I ask my husband for counsel about what he wishes I would stop doing on Thanksgiving or what or who am I trying to manipulate or whatever but like just be objective about it and ask the Lord to honor your pitiful efforts to try to do that and there's no time that you actually ask God to bless you and give you strength for something that he does not ask ask your husband what would you prefer the dressing or me not freaking out over the dressing I think everyone prefers a perfectly done turkey with a Hostess who's flipping out than than a little bit dry turkey where there's joy in the house a proverb about that which is not a promise so so um I think that well thank you very much for being here thank you to Nate for the time that he was here his interventions are pretty weak he leaves he leaves before he's even done with it I was not [Laughter] persuaded

Channel: Canon Press

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Keywords: canon press, douglas wilson, doug wilson, canon press interview

Id: pCPRF6wt444

Length: 57min 50sec (3470 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 15 2023