Kevin Chiles Explains Alpo, Rich Porter & AZ, Early Crack Era, Snitch Vs Witness & More

yes Funk Flex okay Kevin Charles is here how are you my brother fantastic let's appreciate you having me I appreciate you coming representing the Bronx now introduce everyone else that's here all right this is my dude tell son and he can give his own I'm the executive vice president a doggie of a magazine okay okay okay feedback like the Maybach um do a lot of things for Don divas social media constant development coordinator amongst other things okay okay Chris what do you make happen okay when did when did Don diva get created in 99 now I remember in the beginning of this coming through and it correct me if I'm wrong the Don diva in the beginning and still does hang their hat on not interviewing snitches correct okay now that was the basis of that now that that's what inspired you to to get that going because you mean you felt that that needed to come to the forefront yeah you know what um not so much but I guess from our own personal experience that what I went doing and do it mm-hmm you know I had a tender spot about it right you know but it wasn't so much about that it just so happens that we was just giving a voice to the voiceless you know like certain individuals that had situations that we wanted to give them a platform to tell their side of stories you know if you think about um mainstream media outlets you know you hear from investigators the police department and they say whatever they say about individuals I mean you know you never had an opportunity to hit other side of the story so it's sort of derive from something like that for the most part okay so take me to now what part of the Bronx are you from hybrid hybrid gone up to about middle school and then they after I moved to sound you sound view so this is alright so now you are you doing you do in middle school and sound view no I'm doing on high bridge up until eighth grade okay high school on okay if you graduate what year do you graduate high school 84 85 cuz I want you to paint a picture now so what are you doing what is what is Kevin doing like what are you working are you uh are you getting money yet do you have a job what is what's happening from the early the early age I've been like I was hustling from probably the age of twelve not so much narcotics or any legal drug you know newspaper was packing bags scalping tickets good and I live in the hybrid system was a stone throw from where we lived and I was sort of like what everybody that neighborhood did a newspaper house was a good hustle there was because then you know because they they really even if you didn't have all your money they still gave you the next set of newspapers but I bought the papers we stole the baby I mean on Sundays we would probably go buy for what it cost okay and then because you delivered it to somebody they would give you above or whatever the cost was so I guess if the paper's like two dollars person give you three dollars mm-hmm you know but you know anytime you got the opportunity to just be up in Laurel you the fact that he remembers the numbers are so good dollar though of what everything was worth is so key okay eighty-five you graduate high school right now this is you so are you working a job or how's your and eighty-five how are you making any money I'm hustling at that point a little bit I'm even a school I mean you know sadly to say again probably got to put out a disclaimer you know cuz I don't want to encourage any but I think this is that mindset was what it was but at that time growing up grow up a little tough so I was out the house trying to figure things out early age so by the time I was in high school I probably was selling marijuana and at school okay things like that you know so it was a progressive thing but yes I was you know cuz I you know and you know back then in high school you always wanted to look nice so before I got in high school I was figuring out how to you know pose myself you know I mean because my mother you know great mother but you know she was struggling you know to take care of me and my brother so you know even before I got to high school I was figuring out things and doing little things you know make ends meet so how does it progress for you here 1986 what's life for Kevin Charles in 1986 oh I had it figured out in 86 had not oh you did okay so now what so what is your moving are you are you listening in the Bronx are you in Harlem cuz I always thought you tomorrow well everybody my family is you know me and when I when I moved from the south we originally moved to Harlem cuz that's where all my family I migrated to from Harlan I still have family Harlem to the date so yeah so a lot of people do think that okay so so 1996 when the Bronx oh you're in the Bronx how what is daily life for you a year out after school you hustlin but what are you guys like how is your hustle happening well I had an uncle that was in the game you know he's from the generation ahead of mines so by that time I had been driving around with him I would sort of act as the capacity of like like I guess a chauffeur you know I mean back then the hustlers from that generation used to get high you know so they got high on what they did so if they was selling heroin they usually used it and you know my uncle was from that generation they partied that kind of way that was just a norm you know around with you know heroin or cocaine or whatever your drug of choice was so I was sort of like you know mentored not unintentionally by him you know just because I was just one of those kids who was always like somebody dependable so yeah at this point you're driving him around all day right I'm just hanging out with him and you know he's he's mostly what he'd do what's he driving I'm just curious he had a BMW back then cool yeah so that worked for me too so when he was wherever he was doing he was doing and I was always left with the car so that worked for me as well you know early on okay sitting now in doing this with him are you making a portion of the street money with him or you're just learning he's making money right he was doing what he was doing is making a shitload of money okay um you know but for me like I said he didn't intentionally meant to me but I was just one of those kids that you know very observant so when all these things was going on you know I was witness to it you know and so and back then those guys dealt with Italians because you know if that business that the generation before ours mostly dealt in heroin and that that that that connection usually came to Italians okay you know that was the ones who actually controlled that too one that time for the most part so you know I just would just beat it and just observing what was going on you know I mean just taking it all in and what I'm like he was sitting there saying this is what you should doing then this is what you should do next I just happened it right I think well it wasn't so much as like I said tutorial I was just there so about the fault I sort of you know picked up the game now in seeing that is this where you make your decision this is what you'd like to do no I was uh I was definitely heavily influenced by him because like I said when I was a kid I would visit his house you know he had a very nice house he lived on a golf course you know he had a pool in the backyard this is Bronx no he lives in Jersey living in West Orange also he had all of these really nice things you know I mean and so it influenced me you know I mean because I like I said I came from poverty so I would look forward to disorder like trying to find my way into his company just because you're not I mean it was just a different experience for me so it definitely influenced my decision so you didn't find your way into his company into when he says company or were you involved in his situation none at all how so how does now so you're driving take me to where now in seeing all of this is there a point now where you say you want to do this and then what is your hustle of choice after being around your uncle I think what it did for me was that beginning around him allowed me it created the perception you know that sort of made a natural segue you know so a lot of my friends see me all the time you know driving his cars and this is him really before 86 cuz when 86 came around I had I had to figure it out like I said this is more like probably 80 45 okay so my friends see me always you know with his cars and back then he had like a patriot when no one had one but this is what he would give me like he would say hey take the car when I need you know paid you so I would have the car and you got the figured no one my age paid you a pager or the car and all the other things that went along with that so in fact as you say it was like doctors right absolutely so I would be it going you know I would be up in the Bronx playing ball and somebody sitting in it say okay your page is going off you know what I mean so I would just look at it'll be hammer that means I had to get back to wherever I need to get back but that had already said I told the tone for you know like whatever so once I started doing what I was doing honestly he wasn't even the one that was hitting me but I now did this perception in what you were doing did this now in the car in the BMW did this now invite in opportunities of people who want to do business with resolutely and and so who was the first one to but not necessarily who alright how you know your first way of doing business outside of your uncle how did that come about I actually in define an individual that uh left like you know what he may have given me something real small but uncle yeah he may have like I might have been like badgering them like it's heroin time yeah you know me but he oh he also dealt and cocaine as well gosh he may have gave me like seven grams and back then that's when if anybody remembers that's when they he was cutting it you know seven and you might put a 1 and make it 14 and then he put in bottles and you know this kind of thing and I and I probably started doing that I do remember doing that you know and he said I had this thing called a pyramid papers well you would put it in this thing and fold it up and do all this Oh crazy [ __ ] cuz again during that time everybody was partying like that that's what that generation was doing like you know he was freaking off he was partying you know and everybody said just wait we can't Passover classic slang or oh he said freaking off no bro that's what was happening yeah I know what I used to say I did notice some girls up did oh okay so in now is he doing his hustle in Jersey oh he's doing his in in Harlem Bronx he's in New York but lives there okay cool so now he's hitting you with some things now how does your first deal go outside of your uncle what type of deal is that I think like you know he always was on a fence about giving me some because he was always concerned that cuz my mother and his wife was sisters that so he really didn't want to you know I'm saying so we ran into that a bunch of times where he would you know be putting me off not moving as fast as I like to move and I just always been resourceful so I really got outside of him mm-hmm I started doing my own thing you know what I mean and it wasn't too long after that that you know once I had like my own little kind of connection that I saw to outgrew that situation right real fast you know is your connection cocaine yes so so now you now get now this is an Italian Kinect that you get no it's actually some Dominicans Dominicans okay so now you're getting this is pre Krakauer right so now you're at this point you just you just just you're just selling cocaine cause I did a one-man operation in you yeah you know for the most part it's me you know yeah you know what that's right it was mostly me because it wasn't really to crack about about maybe a year to after that that you know I needed to do something other than like oh it evolved to that because back then coke like I said it's like a social drug you know people's like I said partying you know freaking all I remembered it was like I remembered it was people who had a lot of money right and I remember it being something social where it was passed around the room you know yes openly and and somebody would ask if you wanted if you did it and I kind of also remembered it not being sloppy high it was like it was like yo the rich man had a poor man's robe yeah it was it was kind of like in in it and it would look like it wasn't even a conversation afterwards like correct and so now is that the circle where you're selling to or you now are you bringing it to the hood like how will you know it was um you know what would happen you know originally what happened is I guess you have a customer to and it was working-class people for I remember you know my recollection and somebody would say hey you know they would spend a hundred dollars with you this week and it's awesome house and it's been a hundred two hundred and you know that kind of thing and they would pay you next week and correct me if I'm wrong I remember a bill the bill was a hundred right at the time correct okay soon in now when does crack now so the cocaine's happening when does that crack come into play for you probably like 85 late 85 early 86 maybe even before yeah probably 85 mid 85 and going into 86 because I remember like when I started doing it somebody I don't remember how I got introduced to it but I remember that when I first tried to do it I lost everything because I seen somebody do it and do not try to go do it myself and I put it in some water and [ __ ] just disappeared you know but I don't know what I was doing so um early on they used to cook it in a pot inside like a baby jar then actually put the actual drug in a baby jar inside a pot of water and you know you had to look at it and and and determine something was happening at a certain time and then you needed to take it out and spin it and then put it in some cold water and whatever the the chemistry was was you know I don't know what that aspect of it one but from going from the heat to the cold because it's like oils will pop up and you had to just know what she was looking at in order to do that and then at a certain time you would take from the hot water cold water and then it would just rock up yeah so now are you knowing about that this exists because you know other people who are selling it yeah I'm hearing about it you're hearing you so you're hearing about it it's being sold already now I I know when I talk to you on the phone I told you I was a fan of snowfall and and you said you watch it as well now is that you know the vert on snowfall cuz I mean I have a Dinah asked somebody this like it really portrays it as a San Francisco thing then to an LA thing you know what so where did it come like like your understanding of it was it New York was in LA was it the south like it was the Bay Area's where it originated so so that snow falls pretty accurate freebase day freebasing you got to be really now now freebasing cuz it's still crap it's a prior that we're not but there's there's something involved with free basis not freebase a number crack but before turning to crack but what they're putting it into to smoke it to the pipe - the pipe okay but put them like a lot of dudes just use the ether okay the cooking and smoke away but what happened was you had to be really really rich to freebase because you'd have to buy like 250 grams no not challenge me and what crack did that's why they called it cracks they broke it down to a smaller form and started sorry that's expensive running dollar pieces and you can get that huh that hard hard yeah well the whole thing about crack is is this it's a cultural dilute disillusion because you always chasing the first hit and when the persecutes had that first time that's what they always trying to chase and it never comes back but you're gonna come back and get this because you want to achieve it let's get this bread okay I want to just first say cuz I said this when we spoke on the phone I in no way you know I want to be honest about my um I am no way condoning this I do have a feeling you know cuz to me sometimes even when I know sometimes it's not people getting hurt physically and sometimes it's not murder involving things like that but I do I do you know feel the way about the way it hits families and breaks up that that family structure and I'm not encouraging any kids to do this I am just in a moment of time and asking questions because this is early New York this is 1985-1986 this is the the crack era and and the beginning of it and we're laying it out there so so then it's so it's San Francisco LA now at the LA does it creep through other cities before it gets to New York I think to be honest with you that kind of was like simultaneously happened and Richard Pryor kinda nationalized it when he got cold stuff on fire and he was freebasing but it was it was it was I was out in LA like 82 and the first time I witnessed it being done was out there and this is in the Bay Area okay no San Francisco and Mary Mary Paul Lake Mary open in my lumbar Street and I remember first seeing it done I like what the hell is know cuz it was like a whole thing they was going to a whole process not like they it was too much stuff he had to be like a scientist to do it got you and when I came back to New York a lot of the pimps was doing it doing this element or they were smoked out he was smoking it got you because it again like I said alluded to earlier it was called the rich man had a poor man's dream you really couldn't be a poor dude using it cuz you you couldn't go by 5:00 tonight but keep in mind too at the time when we talking about that 83 84 no that's before the crack yeah what I'm about to tell you that uh cocaine was like 50 60 thousand Aikido then two guys right so that's why I wasn't affordable you know and that just made Ben do the how was being brought in the country that was way above my pay grade at that time but I do remember being like an eighth was like five thousand six thousand dollars back during that time to you learn to do this yourself somebody used to pay somebody to do it to makes you feel a woman now and she knew because she never told me that I never cared to know she's doing this in front of you she's doing it why you there right in front of me okay and I picked it up on my own you know anything you've got to do it yourself right okay so then so now we're in 86 you'd like you're doing it so now how does this because you know my knowledge too is I know your name from parent campsite to most and I remember from then but I always taught you from Harlem and then you know I saw our poll I didn't out I never see could say I saw a Richard Richard poor because I knew the name but not the face right so you're doing your give me the landscape of New York City now it's 86 you're doing your house so we're I mean okay back to my uncle again you back to my uncle like I said my uncle bounced around and man and when 85-86 rolled around my uncle had a lieutenant that was a his lieutenant and his nephew was a guy named nappy red okay right and you know so I'm the nephew of my uncle my my uncle's lieutenant is nappy red and at the time when I when I come down town you know red is working in a crack spot okay in all up in Harlem okay he's from hog so he's actually from over convent you know so we always consider ourselves cousins but you know cause of the relationship between our uncles so he's working there it's not his no he's working there got you the work crack right all right so you know you know they would come down and able to day business and didn't meet him we'll be talking about ever he was telling me he was working for this guy and I think he was getting paid like 1500 hours a week or something you know working in this spot but let's not did and if not get that twisted back examine time that's a lot of [ __ ] money like that's like so when minimum wage is like three I feel like three thirty five to fifty to seventy-five right so yeah it is he's in a spot and uh we're talking and you know he telling me how much he making this down the third and you know he show me where he showing me and mine you I'm doing my thing too but at the time when he's doing it down there I'm up in the Bronx doing my thing but then I'm also not Bronx where give me an Arab Ridge Hobbit your novels on Nelson Avenue I'm doing my little thing up there and I'm still fooling my uncle and then like I said I get introduced to Rhett and when I come down town you know I'm hanging out with him in a spot and the line is like up the [ __ ] block and people literally stand on the line you know man I'm watch this and they got two ships night and day so mayhem get to talking and you know and I'm saying to him like yo man you know this is like like never seen you know so funny when I think about guys now was it because in the Bronx the intensity wasn't like could you do it was different Harlem and the Bronx has always been like night and day and it's so and it's making my night it's a stone throw from one another like literally so this it's a 10-minute car right from where I was in a prostitute man so when I'm seeing this and I'm talking to him and you know we get to talking you know and I came up with the bright I did I like man you know you know how much I'll make a shift and you like you know we might make anywhere from twenty-five to thirty thousand dollars if it's two shifts a day so you know we get to talking and you know I guess it's you know I probably suggested I'm like whoa let me see what it look like he showed it to me you know whatever you know I'm believing him and walking away with that door to my head the next day so I remember going and packaging need to look just like that mm-hm cuz you know back then they had smoke shops okay and you know you can go on in and ask for whatever oh this oh it was all over there what do you call it optimal that's a okay okay so in any event you know I'm in my head with the UH with the idea and I when I packaged it exactly like how they packaged it but he's working so I come down you know maybe the next day or the next couple of days and I see in every way I couldn't of course not I've seen what I seen it was no way for me to wait and I know what I was doing I was joined this is like what you consider a gold mine so I go to him and I say look you know this is a thousand dollars if you ran this to here you know like right so I say we do you know we can do 40 60 you know I take 600 you take four honey so he did that and he's like call me now and like you don't finish okay so damn that we had a different kind of conversation so needless to say the funny thing is he's coming across like you know let's do okay so there now you do that you have a now when you say a different type of conversation what is that how much it is gonna be do before it's noticeable you know and he's saying like man I make $1,500 a week and I made $400 in what I was so he's just as excited as as that I am but I guess for him he didn't have access to get it got you and I did now this house he's in it because I want to know some money it's a damn brownstone now at the time so this is now give me the is this is this like the times is the Dominions is there black people do it like what's happened is house how was that moving around I don't know the specifics of mm-hmm the ownership but Harlem is all black probably more likely and but you know if anybody who knows anything about Harlem back then it was like a lot of banding properties like it's not gentrified like it is now like and you look at it now is it it's it's alarming to me when I walk around I'm like yeah I hustled in here and I hustled in here and now it's you know these places are worth millions of dollars but back then it was dilapidated you know but it was the place you know me being from the Bronx it was the place to be like you felt like you spent a day there or two I was a different experience you dodged so much and then when you took that back with you to that bxe what I was told you it's like a drag but but but it was a it was it was so fast pace right I'm not the being in a store and I think I put down five or ten hours and I was young and it was it was gone by time I turned away for 25 seconds you know you turn your back and like because I'm so used to being that bxu layer but you know instead of me getting angry I remember my mother you know bro and I we sensative - it's moving kids on there pay attention and stay awake so yet the house how do you and him branch off in a business manner at some point that spot end up becoming hours before he got fired because he was gonna give I you know you're gonna fun so what how do you just become yours always putting more of our stuff dude and so then the guy what picks up and leaves know he realizes that you know I mean Rob well he knew that I was making this I have a partnership and no one told me how to party okay today now does he come fight you guys do you like what happens how does that how does that even split I don't I guess he wasn't able to figure out who won cuz it has shifts and different work she shuts it down no he got rid of him he got rid of everybody who was working for him figure and I can't figure out who doing it so I'm just gonna get rid of bringing a new team I don't I so many dead because at that point we was through the roof so it's so ever so where do you because like so what you set up shop next door you had the same apartment or you just move in the same building no we moved another whole nother location after that cuz you know the money it got so good this is when we started just buying cars cuz like you figured you know at this point between what I was doing in the Bronston doing what I was doing down there I might have been making five thousand a day you know and we might have did that for a few months so the money you know the money started adding up really fast you know I mean so you look able to set up right so when he left there we all both had enough money and we said well you know let's go do our own thing now this is still 86 yeah so you set up in another place now this is just this is your spot as what's going on is he now your partner yeah what we did was we opened up another another place and he took one ship and I took another ship so he ended up getting his his guys lined up getting my guys but at the time due out doing all of this you know people are seeing us and he's seen us you know like no his name was red so every tangled around he just was behind cars and he always read hmm I mean so you know at one time you might have had during that time I had three or four different cars so you know his reputation started growing my I started growing you're not a minute so when you when you say two shifts right tell me in four hours now because on your shift do you keep your brac and on his ship he keeps his bread yeah he'd do but take scares his team and then you take you and keep but I was supplying everything you know for it's a different split well we still got to pay for it and you got it right so you know so that's how that sort of went okay so now so you you you now have the connect right right so now you what what what area in all of you you're like a family you know 30s so whiz so where's give me the landscape so whiz where's out Paul and rich in this equation in terms of okay I saw that head shake where are they like in a radius from you well stepping back from 86 they were doing well as well and because when I actually met Apple and rich for that matter it was before then you know walk right before a crack era right got right we was at the rooftop you know okay cuz again you got a fig at the time and this is all going on let's not skip over that rooftop dough no we not I'm not now that you were there can you describe I know what it was you had to pause it was an amazing feeling what was that rooftop to Harlem my brother let me tell you what it was for me is my first experience when I first went there this is like you been oh yeah they have the demographics okay you break it down yeah I'm good when I first went like you know did you let that roof doctor okay paint that picture for me I'm a little young that's like when I first rent went this is doing a time when I'm telling you that uh I'm driving my uncle and I'm taking a car that kind of thing and now and again nobody really knew me to see cuz we got ahead of the story cuz that justice 86 times people know who I am now when I first went to my nume so I'm actually on a line to get in mm-hmm and the way the rooftop was set up if you was somebody you just pulled up out front you just walk right in you park on the sidewalk you know I'm on this line and I'm not liking this feeling you know I'm not liking being on this line and I told myself I'm gonna be on this line to [ __ ] home like you know me I don't I don't like the feeling I'm seeing and and it was a guy that uh was actually preceded rich was like a late you know I mean and I remember seeing these guys pull up you know Park you know just just walk in pull like right pull up on the sidewalk just you know woman right in you know and I'm on this line I'm with my guys I'm like no I mean my head would it like you know like you know well world famous Brucie bees in and lighting it out he's filling it in do you know I'm not outside you can hear his voice ringing through them door and I you see the girls and you see the people I guess like what I guess would be considered VIP at the time you know I mean and I didn't like that feeling needless to say it didn't take long before I was parking on the sidewalk and walking in right exactly so now and I forgot how you even segue to the rooftop oh he said you've not done at the rooftop I'm right okay okay right it was it was back then about that time there was some young guys that all had reputations and and god bless they sold cuz most of them are well actually probably everyone I'm probably gonna be mentioning live you know was a guy named Jason okay there's no longer Travis you know Dave la like I said rich you know poll myself a came to every nine again but mmm-hmm you know not as much as us we frequent it regularly you know I mean and everybody that just mentioned is like not alive and you know said he even thinking about it right now but they was guys it was really young and I'm talking about maybe 17 like 17 18 you know at this time in New York I'm gonna tell you about this rooftop you know you had a couple different car drivers out there you had some fly cause you also had cause that were only stolen for that night and the cop used to you know that you know when a Russian law needs to walk you along and back then when you stole the car you broke the ignition right so the whole purpose was is that for the cop not to get up on you close enough to see that that ignition was popped so if that cop got like two lengths of you and you were in that nervous I didn't do it I was in I gonna call and do nothing cuz I'm describing this real green right he's still Brown you know I wasn't smarter my you know I still cause so you used to see a car come out of that line erratic like a Radek like going stolen joint he needed to get clear probable walking that line oh my goodness it was a and it was an amazing experience inside did you do Latin Quarter as well in the ham not much I mean I did occasionally but mmm-hmm did you do our S&S Club so this S&S club over Willie burgers oh right after bro the with the S&S Club is this this is DJ star Chow right this is kick Capri when he was super young getting on at the end of the night for maybe 15 minutes like you know he would say is he's gonna let his little man's get on this rest and peace of star child this is a man speaking about the cocaine that you could come right you know back to his area this is nuts now if I remember it it had like a house feel to it right like like it was above Willie's those above Willie's in a hat like yeah this is like this was maybe like 4 to 6 a.m. this is Tania's I think her father because I know Tanya Willie actually had something to do it only correct Willie and I think Tanya was his daughter correct and then so then then you would go there no this was the lineup Latin Quarter rooftop right and then S&S and then you had to have everything you were doing that evening after S&S was lined up going S&S then you hit that willy burger new york city that willy burger was the most amazing burger do you guys agree listen New York I used to do it came in a tin foil and I used to do raw onions ketchup and the Mayo because I also wasn't used to mayor like like mayo and ketchup on a burger outside of some fast-food restaurant and then you rat in the foil but what I realized in talking to Tanya was the foil kept it that you could really get anything you want it wasn't gonna be messy your joint was still kind of Clinton then the car walk the crackheads wash cars they was making as much money as people with great jobs back doing this now I want to paint another picture of you when you had a chick with you at this point you hitting a rutile S&S key in the budget like if you had and if you got a mean one getting washed your car the whole stage it was bright oh I remember a bright light that's just because there was so many cars I deal with the lights on if you think about it it was no it was no special lighting out there I mean in you know Willie was situated in a great location right on the corner of 45th Street that's probably one of the widest a conduit wave both ways right so it was I do for just parking lot pimpin you know absolutely so it was you know outside other things that happen from time to time but I got it got crazy oh when I went to a couple teams that buck up there did wasn't getting along that was never good and it was but people wouldn't leave they would just they would like let that just really work itself out and get back to the business so that was the willy burger description okay so I'm gonna set S&S and everything else okay so now you're you're you're in the likes of you meet a zero and Minh rich at is this is your first meeting with another just seeing them then there what you know what happens like if I say when I start getting a certain kind of money I told you earlier when I was happening and we started buying cars you know these individuals we all sort of travel the same routes back then if you know anybody who knew nothing about Harlem like you had certain car washes you went to if he was that guy you know I mean so we sort of went there held court you know I mean and that early on we didn't sort of like acknowledge each other but it was almost like you awful you know we just sort of like you know you know you think you're doing it I think I'm doing it we had to see you know let's long right so yeah the energy was never like one of those things where it was any beef kind of thing it was it was you know it was a competition now on my side of town where I grew up in the Northeast there was a young man called Quito you know and so do you know of so you have laundry mess up you know Red Cross on projects there but I know okay so arm he was who I saw because I knew of I knew about people I didn't like I can't you know he had the clubs and anything probably point him out put and then um you know Guiteau is who I saw firsthand which was even more projects the 41 crew to be exact I never saw a whole project building get cleaned out and they run in this operation across the street from the 47th precinct and at the time there was also a housing precinct when you want to loo deep into 229th so you had this is there running this operation I'm gonna tell you the cause this is Maximus beamers lined up on that on on that Street the most let anyone from Ito off from that part of Mars knows this car it was a it was a yellow Maxima black rag and when you seen that car you knew they used to have an expression there's Beto and them like that was it and it was like I never understood how that happened with the precinct right there did it back for you know beyond you know beyond that when I was thinking about this today you know what I was trying to get and uh there was such a lawlessness that was going on during that time but but beyond that it just seemed like the police just wasn't there like I never had I didn't want to see it really felt like I swear to you because the things that was going on so outlandish that that couldn't happen for five minutes and you could be an either one on the corner on a nine and the cops would jet by it 60 going to something else happening like saying brah it's happening but what I'm sitting there telling you like a part of description when I mentioned you that there was lines hmm visible lines do you don't mean and this wasn't a movie theater or that she was lining up to going and I mean this was common happen you just common so I don't you know when I when I when I replayed it to myself all the time I'm like I don't even know how these things was really acceptable like you know like what was what was law enforcement doing you know I mean maybe they were just overwhelmed maybe this was just like happening for the first time good good uh I spent like a hard talk to you yes yeah I spent some time on the phone with detail yesterday and he had said that in the very beginning when you drew it or threw it away they didn't really know it was crack right like it wasn't fun it wasn't it wasn't like at a point where it's like oh and do they still have this I know back then it was you know we've used a certain amount of yards from a school that that time was gonna come until like the late eighties that was did that a football number that was like an 87 he started and I don't think nobody was even worrying about what's this survival for you you know Kevin was it but like you know what I mean like did you feel you had no other option or to do or to what in doing this you had nothing else that you felt that you could do like what was your reasoning for it well like I said part of the disclaimer for this interview is that I want to say that you know you have to take him into account you know the narrative that I'm attempting to create the age I was you know the poverty that I was in so I started out initially just as a means to survive and you know the you know instant gratification like you know you know see cuz my brother and I you know came from you know great family you know pretty smart guys you know my brother actually ended up going to college graduating for Columbia so we came from the same household same MO same father so again me being the oldest I had an obligation and I thought I need to get out and do something too you know - assistant around the house cuz you know I would see my mother long day's long nights and you know he's just barely making it so I got out the house early doing that gotcha my brother didn't have to do that so I say that to say he was the older name he's younger than me you know the sacrifice on me provided him the opportunity to go to school and then have the anxiety or distress or not you know those things I took care of it because when I got out there doing what I need to do that wasn't something that he had to commit to you know I'm conscious so you know looking back on it this path was clear was better you enabled him to be able to to get his schooling in his own society so on when I think about it that was the that's what it initiated that but then like I said as these things evolved mm-hmm and I started getting this kind of money you know money is a very powerful resource and when you're making that kind of money you 19 and you're 20 at this point you ain't even thinking about doing that noise like why would you like you know I mean your path is already laid out for just like what what else do I want to do and I was a little different than most because I end up getting a lot of business it was like I told you I was I was mentored and directly mm-hmm my mark when I saw they did back then a generation before ours you know they all had stores like when I would go hang out with him he will stop and going to the store and this restaurant or this dry cleaners or whatever the case may be so they all had businesses now you'd be an early person in the game and you being around your uncle did he ever you know I know the word snitch probably didn't even exist yet 100% like it was this did he Institute like when in your learning of the game was he also instituting that stand-up type of feel about the game or was it just understood to you prior that we do what we do and as men we're going to follow out whatever comes to you know you would get in trouble for telling your brother even in school back then you used to get like yeah child there was it go something with it that preceded all that I think that's just the way we were raised you know you know because part of our meeting and like you know I've had I've had these debates and I've had um you know my son you know how does all of this even [ __ ] began is my son was doing wrong and and I jumped in the very first time and I said and I think I said I think he may have used the word snitch and I think I said I'll pose name right and then he said it person and maybe FactFinder okay and then what came out of that was that had happened and no one had comment on it like it happened it passed it went and then I think I may be father's day and I saw a young man who said who talked about Apple on his page and it made me I thought about what I had felt about our poll coming through and his influence on the music game and I wasn't 100% familiar with his with his drug game but in terms of that but then I guess I also locked in to the fact that when he had first got arrested I remembered or they were looking for him an exam I didn't hear the word snitch and I felt like I was being influenced by a lot of the younger generation of when they were like I was hearing it so much that I said it that day and then I kind of retracted on well you know what it's not what I'd know of him and I also with Vince Vince some thick thick Mensa sorry Vic I didn't mean to you know we were just doing yes vic mensa had i guess in his rom he admit would even brought the conversation up he mentioned Alpo and he mentioned Jimmy henchman and I felt that he was young and I said how did you how does this how do you relate to that and I gave out post story and you know and I also said you know my understanding was that he snitched on brother cooperated quick Roberts from the difference I mean I'm looking for a definition from you if there's a difference yeah so I guess would even prompt you I was I was on that Dave he only snatched from brothers from DC and that was it that was okay well wait wait wait this is this this is look I'm laid out on how I had looked at before right I can't speak from experience I'm only speaking from outside looking in and I guess you know and maybe I don't know all the facts in him and Wayne Perry and their their affiliation in there but I guess when I saw I see I felt there was some type of issue before the snitching meaning if you go if he went out of town to DC and then I guess when you get a DC brother on board and then I take it you have this DC brother on board that there is now there's situations that's going on within DC I felt like okay I got this guy on my team but now he's kind of like helping me move around in his city sure okay so that was an awkward combination to me I know how do you feel about that you ask me does that make him exempt from on that yeah I'm asking what do you feel what you feel it doesn't matter I wouldn't give a damn what planet he from if you and his person joining a union to do something more specifically this do who was holding him down and keeping him safe there's there's no circumstances scenario situation that you can describe that would ever make it acceptable in any regard it's not absolutely none not now one not nothing now and that's the worst kind now when you say the worst kind what's the worst kind this man was holding you down if it wasn't for him you couldn't even moved around in that town so to be that's the biggest betrayal like and I mean snitching ain't acceptable under no circumstances in the lifestyle that we chose we chose to play a game within some parameters so you know you can't betray anyone like you're not I'm trying to say like it's just not acceptable and this is what we signed off for so it's not like you know you can justify that like when I got arrested my whole family got locked up mmm everybody everybody my house with the kids and they told me hey you need to do whatever you need to do cuz spare them to have to go through this and as a man knowing would I know how I feel it just wasn't acceptable and you know I would have to apologize to my kid's mother and my and my I had a 17 bedroom mansion and my whole family lived in my house they came in everybody the kids they had to find somebody to come watch the kids you know to this you know he's able to work this out but you know even but under that kind of duress and pressure like it wasn't something that I've been considered but getting more back to him and being more specific absolutely not I wouldn't care what planted you from I'm not gonna go to because because whether you start with that I'm from this other project you from that side of project I'm from the fifth floor you from the fourth floor like would you know there is no acceptable circumstances now I always felt with people in this situation I just like I feel that some of these people because snitching has become something popular correct over the years feels like a starting to come become acceptable the narrative is changing that people's trying to find justification what's happening it was my belief is is that the people who's creating is commentary are not people in a lifestyle correct I agree with see so now if you have a person who hearing this interview and and then and you just and you create a set of circumstances and you tell that person hey you know they was gonna give me 30 years the person on the other side of this interview the listeners they hit he sent himself scary right 30 years yeah it is but 30 years shouldn't be that way for the interviews who participate in this lifestyle you know I mean because not just don't live every day you we went outside you could not just got 30 years you could have lost your life you know I mean a lot of people do and a lot of people did you know I mean and and the ones that didn't a lot of the guys that I hold near and dear you know are infinite or trees filled mmm who didn't tell on somebody and they actually got life sentences never coming home now you're a person who's been through the whole ordeal now sometimes I question people who haven't who are on that side of the fence of the drug game right and I feel like some there's some people who have preached it their whole point and then when they get knocked see someone [ __ ] different and let's say he's on a 15 year run right and he's telling people the whole time bro this is not what you do right but on that 15th year he did it he does it so what he was preaching is he was never who he said he was absolutely right and we witnessed that that's happened but but right but but now no no not that it's not right but he was preaching some he was like you're a different individual racism say yes basically what you saying is he wasn't battle-scarred tested yet yeah like like I feel like for a lot of there's been a lot of people like the Italians and also in it like the you know the number is probably incredible of the message we want to watch the news but I think every one of those gods was preaching that's not what you're supposed to do to his team agree with you 100% and people find justification in that and my thing that I want to reiterate and the point I want to drive home is that this isn't a conversation that could be had between people in a game of civilians and I'm trying to create an analogy describe the differentiation between the two kinds of people people who like I said commit these lawless acts mm-hmm me and you we do whatever you do because you know I put my life on the line in so many instances that you know you know these are people that I felt I loved and that I would have lost my life for them and I thought they would have lost a life for me because I was intoxicated and enamored and just like you know like in love with just this lifestyle and is feeling you know and this is again I mean I'm a young individual I'm a young person and I'm heavily influenced and in the power the respect you know all of those things that came with it just started inflating dislike this mentality you're not I'm trying to say so I remember instances when my life was on the line and vice versa and other people's you know what I mean and and and and it felt like there was nothing that because I can compare to that not even and and I'm ashamed of status now you know in hindsight but not even my woman and my children it felt like I didn't I didn't think I was gonna make it to live long enough honestly and I had signed on to that that was an acceptable reality for me and as ignorant as that might sound that's a fact and I know I'm not the only one who share those sentiments I mean like you know this is my this is my guy if you had a problem you know then we gonna deal with it how we gonna deal with it vice versa if I had a problem you know they was there for me and it was like you know and I think I think what's reflective of that now is the gang culture you know I mean that when I replaced that generation with this generation on the gang culture it's still that energy you know I mean it may not be is not maybe motivated from the money but it's just that feeling that you had with somebody that you feel and Ryder died right that they holding you down and you my god you know I mean and I got you and nobody been that valley you know you you know that that that's what was that was the energy that was there you know you know you're one of the few that did your time and you'll feel you know you did your time and still have that feeling on the outside like like I'm feeling like it's like you still that cold is still with you absolutely but you had those that had that cold go in for a while and then that code changes winning on that day to day life when they in there I don't I forgot the the guy who would hit the times like like to cover the Times Magazine yeah and then he went in and then after he was in for a while is when he began to fold and tell but but guys by the way the person that he claims in the reason why he told is a woman named shemekka which was like his mistress mm-hmm and guy Fisher was like his lieutenant he was a younger guy that was down with him he actually went to trial with him on his first case when Nicky got convicted guy was the only one on that case who got acquitted guy turned went back home guys actually the guy who bought the Apollo oh okay he was named back then yeah he actually bought the Apollo and rumor has it and it's not aromas the fact but that guy was supposed to be messin with this young lady that Nikki who had been dealing when when he went back home and he didn't take care of him I think instead that's that's what he justified it for his reason for telling cuz he didn't just tell on guy you know telling about 20 other people so ok God doing what he did with the woman I don't know the other 19 guys was just got hit with the shrapnel I guess I don't know you know but so he's gonna get time and the first case but guys actually don't life in jail now he's and he's an incredible individual he's a stand-up guy he's another one of these individuals like a reference and say how you know these individuals that we're talking about what have you believed that their unique you know and that you are unique to civilian but like I said to you there's Penitentiary's full individuals who signed a name Wayne Perry being one that listen you know I spend the rest of my life in jail before you go bother my mother before you go bother this person like you know so I didn't know that right so please listen I know so are you saying so there's some times that people go in and where the whole wait right of the whole thing to leave the family alone there's plenty of you've got it even the leading man's alone but but I want to touch understand this is really important when we spoke the first thing I said to you flex was I said this is a this is a phone conversation out of love and respect and I wanted you to understand that that make no mistake at this point I like 52 years old you know I did 10 years in penitentiary and now you you come back home your whole thinking is different but when you 20 right so when you 30 40 50 but the reason for us even being here was to set a tone and the set the correction so here's the thing and I wanted to make sure that I reiterate this right if a kid runs in a store and sticks up a store and bust a man in the head and the mayor goes calls the police that guy is not a snitch he's a civilian and he has no other recourses now when care talks about the parameters and the rules that we concept it into that life means I'm running him to stick up the place and I get caught and he don't if I tell him I'm a snitch so there's a difference I've seen kids go oh yeah I got locked up because I shot this [ __ ] the lady in the grocery store told on me she's a snitch and I'm like she not a snitch broker she's a civilian and she don't play by these rules and that's where the game it's not even the game if you play if you're playing by those rules there's certain players you're playing a different deck of card out a certain team there and we understood the game right playing you understand that a game it's real it's like now I've always heard the debate and I'm gonna go back to our poll that about snitching on that daddy snitched on dudes from DC and never snitched on guys from New York and now that I did not know I did not ago backseat what difference does it make whether it was somebody from DC you got a state we got to reiterate that what's that which is okay it doesn't matter and he said that yes so you know when you say New York you know I didn't I didn't know that he cooperated which is the same worried on brothers from you know what down be solely a buck with you I'm gonna take I'm a fan of him from the musical end okay but hold on let me so let me go on with you and if that was my guy yeah you know what yeah so so I guess you know because I'm a fan of his influence on the music side of things everything that is a race that now yes and that's I'm at a somewhat you said right there I guess it's my argument with my son all the time because and it's maybe why I went to go to the cooperating word because I want to say look I get it this disappoint I'm not I'm not condoning it I'm not saying it's cool but I guess for him I and my brother you know never I've never met him like I want to be so clear like I've never I've seen him from a fall I didn't talk to I'm gonna fall anything you know it's just I've always go back to this is like you know at the me you know know my age I almost gave it up but um I guess I saw the rock hymns and the Cool J's and you and you straighten out that story for me to it you know coming uptown you know I looked up to those rappers and I didn't I pieced it all together when I saw like oh [ __ ] I look up to the rapper but that rapper looks up to these street guys like that was an argument I was like oh J wasn't up there in there with them [ __ ] come down here you go see him when I'm I hit you in the [ __ ] DMing and you go down there and and you know I love l but else demeanor was like I'm here and I do what I do but those are the dudes who are really living it and that's what made me want to see man and I'm not the uh you know you know this is me in my 20s you know coming from you don't seeing people I heard about and then because I'm running with I'm carrying chuck chillers records and um and I get to see where I learn I'm hang with these guys you know to those guys at second nature and even for them a red alert in a Chuck who I look up to they still are in a certain way with with Gaza went from the streets so I instantly saw a chain of command yeah like did I didn't know existed so underworld you were supposed to know yeah and you know what I want to declare up to just for everybody a lot of dudes was going in on you right and I said I told keV I said you know what flex is not of this no no no no so when you keep saying is it comfortable to say cooperate or whatever have you whatever terminology is because again this might be hard for you to even digest because you know what my son always tells me is whatever the influences flex its null and void because of the snitch and and I guess you know what I mean like I need a way to Brunner that you can ask him that he should know that and if you don't do some wrong who says you mean all we know that well he I've never tried to have that conversation keep it a buck well you don't know platform you don't give them one neither no I've never I've never I've never asked you know that and I and I guess - we shouldn't know it you know so that is my you know cuz when we talk rooftop when we talk those things and we told those things that was influential to me it's coming up you know I do associate you guys with that time period in that scene and I guess because as the digital platform became bigger and those facts started to come out you know it it changed maybe I'm an old dog that's used to what I saw and I have a painting of it that I want to change you know it for me certain but III was I was uh I was surprised when you told me about him cooperating with with people for people from Harlem you know was that was that understood then or did it come about afterwards we did come about when he act he was inside well I don't know when it came back from the violence I only know when it came about for me now when you say for you for me it came about for you as an individual myself so how did did he give information about you yes he did yes he did so you know this is you know tats arguments always with me I defend and he always say you know he's loving this so output cooperated in your case yeah I'm gonna go further so there's complete clarity yes me Alpo rich a I'm also me our poor rich is if I had to create a scenarios like a second cousin got you so you can understand intimacy okay I wasn't I was you know when I think about it I had the question who was that closer to our rich you know me and I got into more [ __ ] swapping card we did that me bridge a blue switch cars you know we would meet up at the carwash talk about you know the women who you know we still had this thing when we start talking my top five you know and we would compare notes do you know how they stand at there you know again we you know we doing what guys who got a lot of money loud and phones do you know I mean so I was cool you know when a situation happened with Don no I was dead for that you know I mean you know confide to him because I had a tragedy in my own life you know I mean and and rich felt compelled to reach out to me and figure that I could you know identify relate so I actually was there when all of that was going on you know helping him child was his brother brothers little brother correct factors little bro in fact they grew up together and even in that the stories understood clearly I remember there was a part of time where Darnell was kidnapped correct and and in like that word was in the street without the newspaper I remember it would be an understood it was even understood and me being from the Bronx that rich was looking for trying to find him I remember that happening and he and his little brother I believe was what was it the uncle had kidnapped him and I think they sent a finger the young the young man's finger correct and and we don't need to just gloss over that because I remember how that impacted me you know the kid was like 12 years old that's so like you know I don't I don't want to make light of that because I know how that affected me you know I remember not allowing my family like to do some of the liberties that you know that what happened before that so when I think about that I remember like look I don't want y'all to come up with across this bridge anon I mean because that that was one of the times when you start realizing that this thing is getting different like you know Latian real like it's like you know it's not really the feeling as fun as it was once upon time when when children and women you know are being affected certain things you know like like I said again keeping into the framework in the mentality I'm talking about when something happened to me it's almost like I've accepted that you know I mean and it shouldn't go beyond that but when those things started happening those is almost like flagrant flagrant violations that we and it made you have to rethink what's going on here and then you got to think we all get a little older as well you know I mean so it's not just so much running around the girls on the cause you starting to see that there's some repercussions for some of these choices and how old are you at this time probably 23 and I feel like this is like this like 80 89 yeah right it's like 88 89 and okay and so in in in new conversations how was it affecting him when that was going on he in one instance the person that was calling his phone was a Spanish person and he was asking me like you know there's one particular time he's in 31st Street like he lived in 32nd Street buoys in 31st Street between 7 & 8 in the projects and he had called me and I met him over there and he was like you know the person calls phone and he gave me the phone he asked me to listen to the voice to see whether or not you know somebody that maybe know yeah whatever cuz you know he was just like you know trying whatever he could you know what you know as anybody would and I remember just having a conversation with him telling him that you know you have an opportunity to get your brother back you know because like what happened to me I you know there was no communication it was just something happened and I found out about it but and since I'm like you know we can maybe figure out what we need to do you know he's coming up with different scenarios were they asking him for money yeah they was asking how much were they asking him for I don't remember the dollar mine it's been speculated you know I've heard as much as a half million dollars I don't remember you know I mean more specifically and you felt that he didn't have it at the moment he had to get it I don't I don't even think it was so much of he didn't have the money it was enough of us that we would've gave him the money so that was not the issue and I think there's a lot of speculation about that cuz I was [ __ ] too because you know he it wasn't about the money I think it was more about how was this supposed to happen this wasn't a normal occurrence people talk about how do you get it how do you how do you get it back how do you do it TV how does somebody know cut off a twelve-year-old finger with some where's any trust in that you know I'm saying think I mean because the people who telling these narratives they wasn't there they don't understand the emotion you know they see TV you know put in a bag you walk away some know some you know my little brothers fingers been already cut off how do we you know go back and forth and say I'm what trust what you say you're gonna trust what you know so we all we all ready what we think is logically one was real you know me so he's he's wondering I guess if he gives us in and I don't get my brother back in like you know and I like horror or do I involve right and again put in context he's 22 he's 23 years old see a lot of time can have 40 you can 22 right so I think a lot of time and this is one of the reasons why I came up here you know cuz I don't typically do this I've never actually done it which I appreciate you know you're giving me a lot of insight and I wanted to do it for that reason because there's a lot of speculation about a lot of things and people you know you have to put all this in the right context you know I mean and I'm going to tell you the the profound thing that happen to me with a lot of this is when I actually start seeing my kids grow up mm-hm and I see them at the age when some of these tragedies happen and I look at them and they can't figure out how to boil eggs so now I'm thinking about his someone trying to manage a ransom you know me is it's just it's just that that time was a different kind you know but you know I'm like but see even me being in that age you know at that time we do you guys seem so much more experienced in what was going on you know you didn't seem like he was the same year it didn't appear like that 22 versus then I agree but even then like in colon cancer - you're 22 and at the same time but you could have told me I wasn't grown somebody else 22 not and so I guess in in you know it's like a it's like interesting it from the outside its you think it's easier than it is you know like what we were watching it it's the same thing like when you see people respect to dues and we all seen it from our neighborhoods coming from the inner cities that guy that comes home from jail he gets all the respect and the guy that comes home from college he's a sucker somewhere along the line we really have to we really rather refer change their mindset I know for me now just really kind I feel like what the youngins their respect isn't even there but someone who comes home from jail yeah but you know what you know like there's no respect either we the one happies junkies that's why but what happened I said half these young kids are junkies how how weird was it when the user became the lake I couldn't tell you is that bananas you know don't make no sense but what a customer became I mean I think I think and I hate to say this like this but when rap became so prevalent in terms of the amount of money that was being generated and then they became the focal point but boys if you if you go back and just track history everybody followed the hustlers mm-hmm the rappers the clothes he wears the collar job I feel 85 to 90 like it was then you know they they arrested a whole lot of us all over the country with the truth was sitting some guy lying stuff like that and so a lot of the older guys that would be able to disseminate information to the young guys this wasn't there mmm so they coming up on they all trying to figure it out and this is why again even with with with with cooperating the snitching whatever you want to call it so prevalent because nobody was there to be able to give them the information that this is how this goes if you're gonna be in gauging in this type of lifestyle how I'm calling the lifestyles it that's but if you're gonna be down with this this is what comes with that and nobody was there to really articulate that that they will respect so now it's just it's anarchy because when you take away the structure that's what you have well you also have rappers who may not have been doing it smaller then it then they they would weren't doing it as big as people thought but this record sales and the the energy and audience says naive put down a field bigger you know and it's not to take anything away from anybody from comes to that life and then transitions to the music oh but it you know it most of the people who entered the music game well to be honest was most of them were actually workers you know it wasn't really they was running the operation not not that it takes from nothing but I think and I don't think that they would really portraying that 100% they were just saying their experience but I think their fan the fans took it as well if I don't know of anyone else and I don't know of anything and I don't know who he was doing that for it must have been him and so I think that that you know has come into play and I don't think a lot of people I think an artist gets on and successful and they never really clear that up of whatever it was and a lot it what's going on and a lot of them go backwards like you see it and to meet with me and care we always talk about this like the objective when you hustling is to get out if you have a conversation with anybody that was getting any kind of money and you ask them yo bro and when you say get out to get out the life to start doing something like get put that money into legitimate businesses right so that you don't have to keep death row to get up I think had a little just before now you're in a position where you don't have to look over your shoulder mm-hmm and I don't even think these kids really understand having the peace of mind it's priceless now that shows it's just a short looking clean right just to be able to stress you know to move and it's you know certain times certain incidences you feel wherever you go if you go into a certain environment you know to get your back against the wall you're going to the restaurant or let me sit this way socks to the door those are innate and people who come from that lifestyle it's a second nature but the objective of that whole [ __ ] anybody who was serious with it is to get out of it not you so when you see a person who make it and they become a rapper athlete and then they get caught with guns and shooting people in it to me and to us and to do really was about that we looking at them like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you because I really I really be upset because I'm like bro you made it and you're not supposed to go backwards mmm supposed to go forward you suppose elevate you supposed to show everybody that okay I came from this environment and now I'm here that's what I'm doing I think a few rappers in their early successful stage used some of their early money and put it back in the hood to get their team stronger and then kind of run around in both you know making the music and still have that hand in the street you know but that's like that's what I that's what I saw no and I get that I saw it happen even happening that but that's like winning the lottery and then saying I'm gonna get some birds for my man zone again it doesn't make sense the thing is well you guys didn't have that option no you didn't have an option of I can I'm going to Guin the music business next week 32 cuz he was in the music business but you know but but it let's say in your in your in your time where you were driving around your uncle you didn't feel that that was an option for you like I could do music no not there you know like I think guys now in that early stage do feel I mean they do it I'm like I'm rapping about my experience in this early stage and for some people it does catch up on you know it is it is uh it's it has worked for some and not to say that that's what a route you should go mom is saying like that's kind of where I do believe some of the young girls and I feel I get that but I'm just saying it's like winning the lottery and then going to Boston but if you won a lot of it you've won the lottery yeah it still doesn't make any sense because the objective is to get paid and to keep getting paid and to not have to worry about somebody kicking your doorman or look even though even if you win a lot of you still got to look out for people wanting to rob you but more or less you your objective is to get out and to get over here to live this kind of way so that you have to deal with all the tragedy tragedies he just alluded to him in you know going back to Kevin's earlier words I'm gonna I'm gonna enter with the word snitch right now you do you have paperwork on Alpo cooperating in your case yes did you know this as you were on trial and first of all give me you get you know because then the way we can really get this to a good understand so now what year did you get arrested 94 94 so and 94 you get arrested give me the give me the scenario like where are you at the time when this happens well actually got arrested on on in 18th Street 5th Avenue I mean that's really actually converged on me and it was November 1st of 94 ok so then the this happens what was your charge I was charged with what's called CCE it's called a continuing criminal enterprise it's like the highest charge you can be charged as the kingpin charge what score does it ever is that that numbers at the 8th 48 48 okay so now this is also curtain from loan this is what I believe I'll post charge wit right and I believe I think he told me that's what was his charge let's go beyond that that's what El Chapo was charged with okay so we can charge as possible now if your convict is on that charge what could it bring not your life no matter what age you are no matter what age you are okay so you're convicted on this charge how do you begin to see Alpo is involved in your case well it's a process called discovery and you get arrested they started disseminating discovery usually when you first get this is your does your lawyer you you look at your complaint and what the complaint is is uh - I have a loan even investigating you they give you what's called a complaint and you read it it described well what are they investigating you two years two years so for us 92 to 94 so when you're reading this complaint there's names omitted but there's situations that occur you know me so there's no names but yeah so you know who was there you know who was at that situation and that's done for the sole purpose of you don't want to go to trial and see what we have on you you might want to take a plea got you and the federal government has a 96 97 98 percent all depend on what state you from conviction rate mm-hmm so when you read in this information you see you reading about scenarios and different things that happen so you know who was there like I'm reading it I know who was there I know who I did it with if I did it so it's not too hard to figure out whatever but like I said most going a handful okay all right gotcha in most instances you read this from your complaint and you'll probably start trying to negotiate a plea did you negotiate a plea they offered me 25 years and and I that was that was the best player I was ever offered to me and I was like I just couldn't accept 25 years you know I just just I couldn't wrap my hand around a concept again I'm 27 at the time and a few days from then I'll gonna be 28 and I'm late I just can't see myself coming home dad no and you got to figure you go from one extreme from running the streets just owned in the world told us on you in this cage and next thing you know somebody telling you're not coming home for two and a half decades it just wasn't something I could the conception life so I just couldn't take the plea you know and this is after me I evaluated so you wanted so now would you go to trial what happens now when you go to trial I have a my first trial ended in a hung jury mistrial hung jury now when is 100 Emmy they couldn't make a decision I wonder not all 12 people can come to a conclusive decision okay and then so then now you go to trial again and what happens there I have another hung jury so then how did then what happened dude third trial no after the second trial you me and my lawyers discussing my options and he tells me the government's position obviously you know and ironically money's being spent here absolutely absolutely anybody who knows anything about a federal case knows that you know just for LOI to come see you and to retain you have to give him 50 grand so you know I spent a couple hundred thousand you know it didn't matter whatever kind of money I could have got out one of my Liberty you know I mean so when the matter and this is where a lot of people go broke fighting the government because you know you want your Liberty and then not only that you want to try to get something reasonable you know I mean that you can live with and hopefully come home one day you know you know you know get your life back but anyway my lawyers had a conversation we mean he was telling me what the government's position was and I and I told him what my position was and I was like you know what I feel that we could beat him you know I really I really felt you know and again I'm inexperienced I don't know nothing about the federal government you know all but same things we've seen on TV the things I heard the old-timers before me say and I want to fight this me tells me that the judge spoke to him and suggested that you know I might I need to you know reconsider what they offer me which was reasonable and you know the 25 No okay so now that the 25 no more I mean it's just because it's third trial and with a lot of money that's not spent a lot and you know we we don't they probably felt as though they didn't have a strong enough case to get a conviction you know so this is when it gave me some leverage to sort of like bargain a little bit ya know if you would have went back and if we've got hung again they could have went back again as many times as they want or if now or but it was a possibility you could go back and get a not-guilty that's a possibility so they felt that that was possibly in the air right so but it's just that's the roll of the dice and what my lawyer said to me it was like we're no Kevin if this thing goes wrong you you you know you're gonna hate me if it went wrong you DEP your guarantee in the 2500 so if so so when you were doing those those two times you're you're in that room thinking if they come out right now I'm spending my natural life in jail every time they called from when he deliberate the word civilian did you use earlier and you know I know what I just said to myself like yeah I keep it up but when he said it like I don't the whole like like I felt like so correct me if I'm wrong you could have any point right there decided to cooperate absolutely right and and you wouldn't have been looking at that I probably been home like the guy who told on me who went home so you were you you chose in that instance I'm looking at natural life to be behind bars to say I'm gonna continue not give anybody up and take what comes to me absolutely my brother your strong brother and a stand up brother because that's you know I'm still thinking you looking at that 25 when you interested that's less the offer if you do not continue if I don't go to trial because you don't want to spend the money right wow what was that feeling bro when you waiting for them to come out that room and you're looking at them faces and China Reed which waiting on goal I'm very spiritual stop believing in God and everything else at the point and that's keeping a thousand you know because it's unfathomable reality do you think about it but I can't imagine and every time that's like no I mean when I can't I can't even I can't even like that's when you start asking that suicide contemplation starts coming in some of these cat like you know honestly that's not really true because there's a lot of guys that when I got locked up back then the still and we still friends you know and they still call me reach out to me so you know um that that day you know what that that's honestly why I'm here right now mm-hmm it's so many enemies right now they pumping a fist like cap man please as you do as we do represent us and clean this up gave me this what was the first thing I said you when I saw you flex I said listen clear this up now I said it's alright to say you ain't from that life and you don't know let it go I can't comment no I know but you know I guess listen I am I am saying it from the I've never been look I've done my own Street nonsense but I've never been faced with anything like that you know so um that's definitely you know I don't know what that feels like and I guess - and I don't think look the snick distinction thing is is obviously not a good thing and I guess for you know book of riches passed away so it's hard to you know I'm without my guess I look at my I told you what my thing was is like I'm at eight I'll take the snitch and I guess I'm just looking for it not to erase whatever his thing from the civilian of what it is to the music but I guess on the street end of it and where he he did where he was with individuals there's another thing happening where that's null and void if you take down others in your position which so you get to the third the 33rd isn't gonna happen right this does he didn't what did he offer you to not go back or give you an option what is the deal now this is an interesting story I told you me and my lawyers going back and forth and I'm adamant about you know I want to go to trial I think we can win you know hmm one time it was six six the other time was eight four and you know he says they're my favorite he says to me a for in your favor six for no favors well six six six split the first time right a four and he's like Kevin that's fine but you know I'm you know you know and again me and my lawyer Anthony Rico's his name by the way you know we grew to be friends you know he wasn't talking to me like my lawyer was talking to me like I guess the father was her son you know mm-hmm we got real close and he he he went beyond the scope of what he had to do and he had me come over to the court and they took me into the judges chamber the judge that was overseeing the case and you know cuz she went had just meet him in the judge you him in the judge right so I'm sitting I'm sitting the prosecution was alright with that yeah you know that's a little unorthodox right um I'm not sure no it was actually done between it was done it was it was done during a court proceeding okay he actually made everybody leave out the courtroom and they escorted me back into the judges chamber so I'm sitting in this palatial is 5:00 on the Pearl Street so tapestry you know floor-to-ceiling windows is overlooking Manhattan and I'm sitting in and my lawyer sitting there the judge is sitting there and he says to me mr. childs your lawyers you know I had advised your lawyer what I thought the prosecution should do as well as what I think what the government's often use reasonable and he says that um your lawyer feels that you have a problem with you know what I think is a fair offer from the government and what is the 25 we're talking about no no something else okay go they they went down to ten at this time ten okay so you talk about the tenth right so I still didn't want to take that because I'm feeling like you know snoop had just had a hung jury during that time and went home you know so I'm thinking I'm going home too as well it's ironic that that's what happened to doing that same time period but anyway uh Tom I'm like I just you know I you know I'm listening to him so he said to me well you know mr. childs you was it was nothing but a gentleman in my courtroom it was nothing you know no outbursts you you know you you you conducted yourself in a certain kind of manner and and I think you're an intelligent you know guy you know he went through his whole thing and he says but what I have to tell you is that you know the government is ready to go back to trial you know for the third time if that's what you want to do but you need to understand that if the government gets a conviction I have no choice but to sentence you to natural life and I'm not quite sure if you understand what that is at this point you know I mean I think you got a sense of how these things work right now and you may want to reconsider that so um I mean I guess looking across the table with the judge in thinking about it sort of weighed on me at the time because I realized this just wasn't what my lawyer was telling me because you know people tend to think your lawyer selling you out or whatever whatever you know working with the government you seem like it's coinciding what he's telling you no I mean so I guess he needed the judge reiterated for me like this is just how I feel this is just in the best interest of I think it's for you you you can do certain my time you'd be home before you know it you know that kind of thing and you know I just went we went back out into the court and they called court back in session and you know I just sort of looked over my family you know I guess you know I was like a little bit they could see it in my eyes that I was like felt like you know like you know I still won the fight but I would like you know so I accepted the offer at the time with uh with one concession because my my best friend that I grew up with who was my co-defendant mm-hmm had pled about uh because we was all going to try at the same time as a matter of fact you know and I actually had 22 co-defendants when it first started in anyway my best friend who I grew up with as a kid he had copped out and took 17 years not to tell on me you know me and um so I felt bad about that you know I mean they offered me ten they've given him he took 17 and a half so when I was sitting with my lawyer I was like I can't take I can't take it he's like what do you mean you can't take it I said it's no way that I can go home before that you guys for my guy like you know he got in a way of the situation and and he could have you know I mean like he could have did what he did they would let him go that's how bad they wanted me and I said I just can't do it needless to say he went back and had a conversation with the government about what my position was and they end up giving him ten along with me you know me and when you stand up but you all stand up brother ma when he made that then I took the time you are a stand-up brother you I've even heard that before I've even heard of it I haven't even heard you know Wow a like it the the the stories we always get is some ice rolling over and turn it over we never get the stories of of somebody being there for someone when you described in that situation I want to take the court out of it for a second and I want to take the time and the judge out for a second when all this is going on because of course you you get arrested but you're still conducting something that's illegal how do you work with that within yourself outside of court room you know you've changed you for all the those guys who were with you we took care of and like this one but there's also some large that were lost right along the way not not on the street side but from the truck how do you how do you look at it now in being the age that you are I'm aware on that time period of what was going on and now you're here older and you said how you have your children right what how how does how do you see it now how do you feel about it how did you feel about it when you were there on trial like knowing that how did you feel when you were reading those things about you you know I'm saying like you you read it for the first time and you're reading that discovery right like how are you seeing like what's going through your mind as you're reading that I think at that moment it's definitely not the moment that is now looking back in hindsight and reflecting on it I realized like the devastation that I caused and in my community but there was so many other people doing it that you didn't feel I felt like we felt like it was everyone's everybody's doing it and you didn't process it because again like to start it out of necessity and then it evolves and mushroomed into something else so I never took the time out to think about it and I don't a lot of it you really didn't get to see the end of the crack era technically you you were in the midst of it you got arrested right no I didn't I knew for I don't know how much of it was going on after that I wouldn't even know but I'm a carry like I don't know took out over after that but it it wasn't I think it was dying down because I'm even thinking about when I was on the street where I was with it wasn't that wasn't so much what was going but now what in that time wypall right before you got arrested was not as much money being made from it like it like like that beginning um no it definitely wasn't there was nothing like the time period of eighties like 26 so maybe not I'm just wondering have you ever seen the movie roaring 20s with James Cagney and Humphrey Bogart is that a mean [ __ ] movie row like that is looking 48 Tom no but you know what's even crazier we research try to emulate all of those guys he was fine like well we should do that the black half is because that that movie really like I'm a huge James Cagney fan first of all and then not in Humphrey broad I was like my second third put James Cagney's coolness and swag and his walk but the way they put the gloss or just put on it on that movie I watched that movie like a hundred times like just the way it was you know presented or seen was and I know I'm jumping back to subject was out pulled the only one that cooperated against you know there was there was I had 22 co-defendants okay today I got arrested on my complaint I had 22 co-defendants twenty one of us got arrested one of us one of a one guy Charles Alan brown from Mount Vernon okay Chuck shell for my version Mount Vernon was my co defender he didn't get apprehended the day we got arrested gotcha so he was on a run mmm-hmm so while he was on the run we was in jail from November December January for every March 5 months and he didn't get picked up until March mm-hmm so during that time when he did raids and they compensated cars and all that kind of stuff the government didn't really have much of a case because 21 people no one told mm-hmm and and that attributes to the kind of person that I was and mind you you know and all in all honesty the government didn't even really have a case prior to then but nevertheless twenty-one people got arrested and no one told so slowly but surely they started letting people out as the months went by because the case was falling apart because they anticipated the people that they like to hold on and then fill in the blanks links yeah it didn't happen so right up until the time this guy got caught we were fine wait a minute so well we mean how many more would he got caught how many people are still left in some had gotten vailable cuz they really was low-level individuals who really had nothing to do with it like I said everybody got locked up my kids mother my aunt just because now this gentleman from our Vernon when he did he got caught right March over the next year of 95 so the did he speak to he cooperate as soon as they put the handcuffs on you know he didn't even know why he was pulling him over he was telling Susan why told Israel whoa well what was his him being so in Mount Vernon how was he even in the circle he hung in my hand he actually was cool with a he was cool where was a Z in all of this looking back on it I guess helping them helping them when you when you say them you mean the government he was helping the government yeah just that's the way it appears in my paperwork well why would a Z's maybe in your paperwork I mean he wrote a book and he made some reference to have you and him spoken about this absolutely not no so when you say his name's in your paperwork like a specific situation or something that happened and you know he was be there what's the difference between him and alcohol in terms of because can I notice with AZ you said working for the government was was Alba working for the government uh after you got caught at the got caught so where's a Z and this is AZ one for the government before it appears like that for my paper and you never never compensated mine what's the talk about you and our boy become seen about this subject tried to reach out to me not long ago not long since he's been home ain't none talk about what do you say to me I mean I mean what what what what does that conversation sound like will he be how did but you and AZ weren't moving together how would he come up in how would he come up in your paperwork this is my this is my theory mm-hmm and I can only base this on the facts locked up in ninety can I can I put this paperwork up absolutely okay I want to get your proof was absolutely this is my theory on it Apple gets locked up in ninety surely after that he decides that he's gonna flip and he's working with the government my theory and I don't know because I mean a lot of you a lot of the viewers watch power so they could just in power it's a pretty good doing a great job shout out to 50 but uh what I realized that when I'm reviewing my paperwork it's showing it and actually just actually saved me it's just you know I think you know so and God works in funny ways because what happens is is that uh our poll and where he's at now and wit at the time I don't think the witness protecting it at the time because he hasn't maybe took a plea just yet but wherever the government is keeping him he's not on a compound he's never been on a compound by the way loud there's a misconception about that - he's never walked the compound hold on bro he was he never was a simulation like he's known when you say general I mean was he like witness put or was he like special unit or special unit his whole biddies he's done it in a special unit okay but not not witness protection where you're in like another city living your life that happens when you get out usually that's tested okay but why are you incarcerated you never you don't interact with why is that why when you say protection you told on so many different people if they put you in general population with you want done friends of people that you told on or even that person per se then you run that you run the risk of getting hurt losing your life so they protect you and they keep you with people who doing exactly what you're doing is so bad it's so bad this is not my perception that's to be said but exactly what you're doing which is true no you said he's hanging what people do which is raden telling doing them helping themselves you know doing what's best for them so when you say a V working for the government but this just in your case or in other case again I can only I don't want to to speculate on what he did in regard to someone else but this is a question I had okay so when I'm reviewing my discovery is like I'm saying to you and even before then my discovery at the beginning of my case there's dates on the stuff like I said you know it's your discovery is what you get to see so you know my name get a certain type of information and it comes in how it comes in right so then a we provide it to you you review it and you determine how you gonna create a defense for yourself so they give you this information so what we got this is what we got you take that you evaluate it you and your lawyer discuss mm-hmm how we gonna proceed or if we should proceed or whatever but in any event and some of my discovery I'm noticing his name at the AG's Daisy's name at the top of the discovery and but not not not not blacked out not blacked out because I'm going to try so when you go to try to have to remove now cuz you have to know whether you took a plea you wouldn't have known more why's there you go and because 97% of people take please you weren't expected to see that paperwork nobody was that's that's what they Bank oh gosh oh God 90% of the people in a bank on the to miss trials the mid to miss Troutman because so there are probably some people that was new are in jail they don't know that don't know that who those people were once you your third what doesn't happen they know you've seen all of this well they know you've seen your paperwork they know but if if the trial go left and I get left and okay either way what matters if you've seen it or not didn't mean you know like think about it like I'm not supposed to be here right now mm-hmm and you not suppose we hearing this right now because how many people independent century that they can tell the same stories if they were it and I hate it and even they tell it from me it's a different train hmm so just so for clarity mmm for clarity to got Charles Alan brown from Mount Vernon that guy mm-hm he's still a no he's out oh he's he never went in he was in from the tougher March to the conclusion of my trial and then he was out when my trial was over they gave one was called a 5k one which is a downward departure it gives a judge discretion discretion to send some because he copped out to 25 years oh he took so he did two new but the government do is make you take a plea mmm-hmm and with that plea they say you can 25 years you accept that if you help us and cooperate we will write a letter to you to recommend to the court that your sentence be reduced well substantial assistance that's was Bob k1 so he signed that mm-hmm if he goes back on that agreement don't do what they want him to do then he's objected to getting that time even now isn't definite okay in the event that's what he did after the conclusion of my trial he went for sentencing and they gave him time so and he went home right now let me bring this all the way back so hold your paper else way more than that but this is disparity so this is how this actually helped me believe it or not when I'm reviewing my paperwork I see a Z's name all in it you know can't make heads or tails of it cuz I'm like you know like you know so as this plays out you know in court my lawyers on talking to the agent in the accident questions and one particular question he acts as him is AZ a part of this case the agent says yes you know this is on the paperwork that I'm allowed you want the nose right so he acts as him all these questions oh it comes out so then when he gets Charles Alan brown from Mount Vernon understand again uh-huh he acts is him whoa wait a minute Jane took the stand for days boy whoa they took the stand in your case yes he took the stand in my case not easy Charles Alan brown but I'm trying to stand testified against you looked at you across them and testified against you yeah somebody I took care of protected saved his life multiple times got up there and point his finger at me my child's mother my aunts my cousin's he would have told on my kids if they was old enough to stand trial and you know but let me get back to the story so I can connect the dots for you okay so I see AZ name all of my paperwork just got Charles Island brown from my Vernon gets on the stand and he starts testifying and and and do the question him testifying my lawyer says to him my understanding is that uh you receive some paperwork's some paperwork you know pertaining to Kevin child's case and he goes on and says yes and he gets to accent some more question he said so to my understanding you received he's just paperwork from old buddy of yours by the name of AZ Faison he's like yes and then he says to my understanding this paperwork to AZ Faison guy came from Berto Martinez output he said yes so now I'm sitting and trying I'm saying to myself first of all sound and nuts why does Apple have anything pertaining to my case in the first place and then secondly what was it it is I don't know I don't know that means he gave him something right like you got to follow me in this like I'm gonna real slow investigators and prosecutors have this information like you know only seen why they seen him what you was doing how you was doing it mm-hmm why does he have it where he's at like you don't have access to this stuff so he had to be sitting with the agents and helping them gotcha put a case together and providing them information and insight because like I said we was friends so they may have been showing him and asking him how this worked what I was but on top of that he told him the things that him and I did got you with one another as far as business was concerned mm-hmm okay so that's fine he in turns since of Daisy now my question become why does he need to know what's going on I mean these happen in real time when I'm trying to process this so is he a liaison for you because is he helping you with the dot the the spaces that you can't fill in do you send it to him in accent hey you on the street oh oh is this is this true what this conversation is that I what's being said here oh they look at him for confirmation well well I think alcohol is only able to tell on me up to 90 because he got locked up I was still in the street from 1994 and me and Abel still on the street so maybe it was new players new things going on that he made me and this is my theory mm-hmm it regardless of what my theory is the fact is that Apple had the paperwork he sent to the AZ and a-z end up given the paperwork to charles island brown well he's on the run see now that ends up saving my life why you saying it because chuck allegedly was testifying to things that we did my lawyer argued that you're testifying to things that you've seen in paperwork that was provided by government participants performance there you go good work you understand so that's what provided ulterior motive and gave the jury something the question are you testifying and first person of accounts that actually happened between your Kevin are you testifying from a script that you you read and you really wasn't there and you really didn't do these things you know I mean but that was enough along with my lawyer doing an incredible job to create doubt right a lot of doubt right what's your motive so he actually end up doing me a favor so Thank You Chuck how does make you know because I'm seeing this I'm seeing some disgust like it like even when you like it how's it making you feel when you doing that 10 like was it how was it how was it you know what I mean like like like when I can't do the whole building [ __ ] they erupted like you know I mean cuz no one fights yeah but no one fight so I was like you know whatever and haven't did the time and did what I did this is this is why it made Rd was so easy for me to do and this is why we get to support we get because when when I came home and I did this you know everybody embraced this you know these guys who are still where they are had these influences and these other communities that they say okay when you go home yo get we reached out to you know nothing there was nothing no no no the people was who did who all of them like no no what is there to say you can't you can't dis ain't disputable like this ain't debatable like we're not gonna go back and forth about what you did or didn't do you know what you did I know what you did so there's no way he say in his book when he did refer to you he said that uh Kevin Kevin is under the impression that uh you know what we can I'll give you some excerpts that you could put up and then you could compare to paperwork to what he said mm-hmm and then people can formulate their own opinion but he knew how I felt so in mind you we ain't talk so when you wrote this book that was your conscious talking I'm guessing because we didn't have a conversation were you surprised that that that those young men were in your paperwork absolutely because like I said we're always friends you know I mean and even when without PO while he was in his situation he would reach out and call it from people and say yo tell keV they want me to do this they want me to do that you know I'm not this I'm not that so he sort of straddle defense in that situation okay you didn't come in and get on the stand and in whatever but at the same time like I said that contract aside with them is I gotta tell everything and anybody who's ever heard interviews with him you don't have a problem with saying what he did you know I mean like you've heard all the interviews I heard I I want to say feds and I heard like the tape but the tape ever come out no did I know that I know that at the time I remember hearing it you know they did issue any any uh they uh they put their [ __ ] out yeah 20:17 how do you look at it like what do you what do you see is twenty seventeen like when in comparison to you like what do you what what do you see now in 2017 about yourself what do you what do you see I know I'm blessed you know I mean I had this opportunity just to even be having this conversation with you and I'm hoping that I shed some light you know absolutely absolutely Eddie I mean you know once again I'm not I'm from the civilian side and when you when you when you speak of that cold leg because I'm learning here as well now with AZ and out pole let's say AZ didn't end up in your paperwork what was he looking at you know what I mean like what was what what was the other door for him if I don't cooperate what is what is here now for me I'm just wondering what he would he been up for the same charge you up for yes if he didn't absolutely so he saw the exact same window the exact same door you saw right and and that was Apple's charge as well was the young man from al Vernon have you seen Debbie and did you just go back home to Mount Vernon and was who know there's a man I haven't seen him so he was he would have been up for the same charge as well lesser yeah he had less culpability than I did you know I was at the top of the entire so he probably he was looking at what maybe would you think 10 shut his mouth probably nothing because everybody would you know so about a way to hang out too we mean they still hang out oh who is he and Chuck and Chuck right I see the written I see trunk takes you to a place takes you to a place people need to understand is that this was just was an assassination on my life you know I'm saying it because what and he said just to me we bumped into each other in the bullpen you know I was handcuffed he was handcuffed he was in another bullpen I was another shot right and you said to me okay if you know I can't do it you know like you know I can't do it okay but if you can do it why would you bestow that on another man like you know I'm strong enough to do it and you can't and like I said this is somebody that took care you know you know when he came home gave him a job gave him cause he saved his life and literally saved his life and if he listening sitting here that he know and I'm saying I saved your life on multiple occasions so at the end of the day you didn't even wait to hear what the case was before you told you know I'm trying to say like literally to the cops listen I don't I don't I don't I'm not saying this dude like you know this is real when I read the paperwork and they said the man who operate it when he put him in a car yeah like our friendship had to me more than that so there's no reason dummies have discussed on top of that my co-defendants was my children's mothers and in women that like come on man which means something had to be said about them to real them right Wow I mean so they are individuals like that and I thought I was sharp enough when I was running around it you know that there's something that you would just see on a person like you said you know we was talking earlier like you know they all say the right thing and then in that moment what happens but it's not until something like that happens that you see something in them that will forever change you you know I'm saying so I'm forever changed because I just don't see people the way I once upon a time but nevertheless I don't live that lifestyle anymore he wasn't overly concern me so this interviewing you so much about me you you you said something earlier you said it twice and you touched on a little bit you didn't continue and you said something had happened to you that was tragic do you mind me asking I mean it's I mean people who was they understand and I don't mind talking about it but you know it is it's one of those things that I lost my mother okay my mother was murdered and so harm I'm right and it was due to the fact that uh you know obviously the lifestyle I was living so I have to I have to wear that and you know individuals that did it with some cows you know because you know you you have to understand I just do this when you is when you weren't home when you almost 222 I mean when when this individual is a [ __ ] derelict that's what it boils down to you know I mean and he actually kidnapped a young lady which is a friend of Mines girlfriend okay and he and she's like 17 when this happened so this is one of those things might tell you when I'm looking at my daughter at the age that she was and in and this is when I sort of came to terms with and it took for me to be the age that I am for me to even accepting of what it had to have been for this individual as well you know I'm saying because she's a 17 year old girl that walks out an apartment and three individuals draw guns on them and as I understand it you know wanted money or whatever the case might be it just so happens that where she got kidnapped that it was in the proximity of where my mother was living at the time mm-hmm boyfriend at the time was actually on the run for murder as well which is a friend of mine and it was a you know a bunch of just just some crazy occurrences but anyway she ends up if I had to tell it and I don't know you know what I mean like I don't know but as I as I understand it they needed money and I guess she was scared you know I mean and you know I think you know she may have figured that her and and how a boyfriend which is my dude we were we were together you know hanging out that if she bought some time that she would maybe bump into us and this one maybe diffuse so she you know she ended up bringing them to my mother's house god sure you know this is all becomes unexpected because she's not expecting them to even come over right she doesn't even know them to be quite honest I don't even know how that played out I don't even know how to gain an interest to the house I really just never really knew how a lot of that happened anyway long story short they end up getting in the house there's no money there you know I would never keep nothing there and they end up handcuffing them and putting pillars overhead and shooting off you know - [Music] that was there was um with her friend I don't even know I know you know what that girl was you know just a I don't know what that girl was but she's the girl who just started what she end up surviving my theory on that was because you know this individual was talking like he was just just this guy and you know and him and I have been getting into it flapping that's never going for me you know but nevertheless you know he's dead this is even going on now I'm actually being sued by his catch but that's another story for another time but sued for what you know I could send you two people were gonna add to it that's a whole nother story as I'm I'm dealing with their sued but he but he'd come in to crime yeah but it's just goes into something else and I don't even want to cocaine it shines a light on the creep that don't do dessert not even me got you that but anyway did he get court afterwards yeah he went on a listen and I'm saying this for the first time you know two things and and I probably shouldn't say this but you know I have to say it just so people clear on this this dude went on a run you know so people end up getting in street and one one of the guys are not alive anymore and the other two went on the run mm-hm and they end up getting caught in different states but for anybody who has to be foolish enough to not not even understand that I would be spending the rest of my life in jail that I ever came into contact with him because I would have killed him and and I would sat in jail my hands folded behind my head neither did every day that and and I was uncomfortable with that so um a lot of people exactly and and I know that those individuals knew that because again I'm gonna go back to what the time period was that it took nothing for me nothing for me to take someone's life if that's what I so chose to it was just that simple so for anybody that would want to believe that I would have fought gold that opportunity has to be out of their [ __ ] mind if I had the opportunity to kill the guy today I would and I wouldn't lose no sleep and I wouldn't be apologetic and I'm gonna go further to tell you just yet again my character to what kind of person I was i sat outside of his building when this incident happened and his mother came out the building being assisted by another woman an opportunity for me to have done something to her presented itself not even I didn't even have to do it I could have said any would happen but you know what I chose not to do that and that's the one thing that you know I don't regret not doing because for all I know he was an animal and she may not even been she men have been disgusted with him and not even you know you know I'm saying so you know a lot of people always you know and this is my personal friends of always said to me like you know I don't know if I would have been that guy kept I might have just had to do stuff for a day but my thing was her face I just don't know if this was like I said there's a lot of like just was a creep she made this homeless dude from birth who knows you know i mean i mean i just wouldn't gave me the satisfaction that would have made me have to stoop to his level and haven't done some [ __ ] that I have never done because again if you wanted to rob me I got a store in HoN 25th Street on it every day you know it you know me so you forgo debt to do this creep [ __ ] you know me so you're chump so and and and and part of why I'm being sued it's good to do misspoken and some other silly-ass publication and I and I sort of check them a certain kind of way and the next thing I know he's suing me liable because I sassanid his character Wow so this is the kind of [ __ ] that's going on at 2017 so having said that I don't even think it's not now so I can say no more because from what I just told you about the mother characters to these kind individuals I don't know what anybody doing out there doing anything at this point they know like I know you know I mean so I'm hoping and only reason I shaded I'm hoping somebody just to know that this [ __ ] is it's unimaginable to extremes that people go to and the things that they would do and at the end of the day they are there's no more morals there's no integrity there's no honor there's none of that so just hold things a phallus you know I'm saying and and it's something that you can see that I was passionate about and I believed in but again it ain't had nothing to do so much about that as much as it had to do with who I am as a person you know I mean I could not look at myself in the mirror and be good we haven't hurt someone else you know what I mean or toll on somebody else or my problems on them and more importantly my kids having to walk the street and have to have to wear that you know I'm saying come when I see my kids they were proud they proud of they dad you know me I did I did I know what I did and I did is America cold my name is entak you know any and they can walk the street without people whispering about them or feeling some kind of way because like I said when I left the street you know my children's mother still had to run around in the same environment and a lot of times that's what happened you know people telling people and then they put them all right back in the same community to basically do what they know we're gonna do to one another you know I'm saying so that and that's the sad reality of that I appreciate you coming by Claire something my brother you are stand up brother and you have made me understand the difference I hope so man perhaps I don't get no more phone calls about you [Applause] explain it oh man I appreciate your time my brother and and what you put into this magazine you you know we see and you seem like you've been very positive in and now you're moving forward absolutely you know what it is yeah make sure you followed dawn diva magazine or history make sure sure you you

Channel: HOT 97

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Id: u6i9j_lLOr0

Length: 130min 25sec (7825 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 18 2017