Ken Clarke: The Big Beast of British Politics

Handan it's journalists love being on stage with politicians and there's a reason for that because if you look at those tables where they ask the population which professions what sort of people they most trust and what sort of people they think are the biggest are cells I mean that's a technical expression for what they do you will find that obviously and I hope there aren't too many here tonight estate agents come at the bottom just just near the bottom are journalists but below journalists are politicians the thing about having Ken here is he is the exception that proves the rule because I think it's fair to say and I suspect the size of this audience tonight confirms what I'm about to say I think it's fair to say that he is that exception politician that people actually after a very long time both like and respect so it's a double pleasure to be here tonight and with Ken and I have to say this and you will probably have forgotten this Ken although I suspect you don't forget very much it's that look he gives a very long time ago well about 20 years ago roughly 20 years ago I did an interview with Ken and forgot all about it and then a few days later it was a Friday evening on the Today program obviously a few days later Friday evening I had a call from my boss to say we are in trouble by which he meant I was in trouble because and don't give his name away by the way if you do remember because a certain politician of conservative politician very senior one member of the cabinet was making a speech on that Friday evening attacking me maliciously viciously attacking for having poisoned the well of democratic debate and the example one of the examples that he used was in an interview that I had done with Ken in which he alleged monstrously that I had interrupted Ken thirty four times in the in the in the space of the seven or eight minute it wasn't true it was I counted later it was thirty seven times but anyway put that to one side it was about and what he was doing in the speech was he was calling on his fellow cabinet ministers and other ministers in the government basically to boycott me to stop and had he succeeded that would have been the end of my career I would have been finished at this guy that was on Friday evening that weekend papers were full of it unfreeze gonna be kicked off or all that sort thing and this book then went on the world of one a wonder if you remember and you were asked about it and said he you going to boycott and he said something like and I'm paraphrasing a little bit he said what a load of bollocks is that it's roughage in your book what I used to say was people who say that Humphries interrupts didn't get hungry disrupt or not and if you probably agree my response usually was well I usually interrupt him as much as he interrupts me exactly true and anyway we're gonna tell you in anyway it was an objection than having the joke the man who made these appalling allegations John's making jonathan Aitken and what happened to Jonathan a moral never crossed jon hamm tell me walking past Wormwood Scrubs it was very difficult not to go hey so you remember that Kent I do remember it I remember I was enjoying with me where did it just sitting here being nice to each other just excuse us for a moment or two sample of all boys reminiscing it together we enjoyed our exchanges yeah I always enjoyed being against a frankenbean if you buy you know because I'm quite careless and I have a bad habit of interrupting your conversation I never even noticed the interruptions nowadays it's be quite differently different I know what the rightful I'd have to learn my line or I went on oh yeah somebody would school me and you really give you a great demand so we won't get onto this subject or that subject Elizabeth but here you may gather we just debate all the talkative so the two of us used to get on and we resident in politics in used to argue about politics had you taken a strong line the job was to take a line which disagree with me isn't it the case that if one never interrupted a politician we would just have a series of party political broadcast well actually the politician we would miss out as well that's because he becomes extremely boring and just occasionally I guess I'm sure very often you've got the better of me but just like anxiety if you respond properly I mean that is what enhances your reputation that's what you know gets them saying we should go on again and all that and it's that main thing is you keep the audience if the audience are seriously intelligently interested lot whereas just sitting there with asking the same questions which are not being answered because you've got to give some slow than in at least twice in the interview because some work from number 10 has told you that's what your main before we get any further down the soil I immediately tell myself that I'm coming in a no-go for veteran now see and the moment I find the thought crossing my mind things are not what they used to be I count to ten because that is the role of all veterans through the ages well when you and I started I'm sure there were some old blokes who done it before we had who listened to us and said Oh what is the world gonna start this interview by saying what's the world coming to things aren't what they in fact they've changed in your book you but one of the many things you say in your book is that we talk now about us all going to hell in a handbasket and there's never been a political time like this because everybody hates each other and so on but you say in your book that the 80s and 90s were the most vicious time in was not personally was I and I don't think he was so low level as it is now but there were equal critical crises I mean they take the part that was controversial events by a lifetime the miners strike in the mrs. Thatcher's miners strike was I think the gravest political social crisis I remember the country going through and the country was fiercely divided and one thing we had then which we then have to have there was a were outbreaks of violence I come from a mining county and and I had a pit in my constituency in those days and they were working miners in Nottingham Jeff we were almost falling out with the auction miners who were also more militant ones and I remember making visits to Mansfield to do a meeting and I had to go through a police roadblock on the outside of the town to get in why was I coming into Mansfield and in my own constituency my miners had caught grave and I understand mine but my constituent miners at grave were going to work but there were pickets coming up from Kent every day to try to stop them Kent being one of the militant areas and the policemen came from Essex and they were having fight something down on the village street whilst all my constituents are going to work over the fields at the back to avoid all the trouble so there that you know was the state of affairs and the politics behind it you know the party politics the partisan politics the arguments about the merits to this day remain ferociously divisive Lee controversial is both sides have now created probably their mythology or what it was all about but so they're the idea that we've never been through anything like this before and the only previous time I remember the whole public getting divided an argument everything was when I was a schoolboy still that was Suez soon and it was a transformative moment and as a schoolboy I remember not only all the teachers that I'm in every six format but half the people I knew were busily arguing the tasks rather ferociously one way or the other about the series campaign so this seems happen that's what democracy is meant to handle so we look at it as this done is it different today from what it has been o in some ways justice but oh yeah I'll be at at a critical stage in relations between not just within Parliament or we don't have followed at the moment but between politicians and between politicians and the public because one hears any honesty I think Trust in the public has never sunk so low I mean even in the divisive times I'm talking about some of the most passionate advocates of both sides were devoted followers of the political leadership that part that will delete ship they agreed with and and I think the moment today the proportion of the public who hold the political institutions let alone the political class in near contempt is is dangerously high and it's taken too far the public r-27 dangerously that's well it's democracy they'll work out if you wish merely I think it's not only happened here it's something to do with the pace of change and changing society and technological change and everything else I think it none of the Western democracies are working in the way they have for most of my life the the the parties and law it is the tribal loyalties people feeling that their center left center right my family are all labor my family or or conservative cross-atlantic we're all Republicans here with all Democrats and all that kind of thing and you know shifts of opinion between these two pretty loyal bloc's changing government once sides made a mess and the other takes over it's true all across the continent it used to be as well with the coalition's in their case pre-packed coalition's big broad parties in ours that's all gone people it's like all their politicians and they're they're angry they're protesting they want to protest against politics against the elite there's some people are very successful and they're happy they're content they they vote for what things that they think would do best is doing best others just vote against those people in London those people in Washington whose Trump brags it salvini marine lepen it's also vote it's all exactly the same vote that the one thing that the people who actually hold them in high regard it's well it's they're not real politic politicians they say it like it is they're angry like us and they spontaneous to do things and their solutions are simple there are people to blame it's all the Mexicans it's all Brussels it's all less Arab it's it's all immigrants and here's this lovely guy who's sucking it to him and annoying the establishment and all the other politicians and is changing politics quite dramatically really well that said that the traditional tribal world ISM has never been terribly tribal myself but that been the dirty world my night way I don't like the last election we the Conservatives won Mansfield and we lost Canterbury and this election it's probably going to happen on a monumental scale and that's weekend lots of people even in this election don't feel any great passion from either side and a lot of people are still gonna make their minds up at the last minute but it's not a bad thing if it's taken too far I mean further the public to be skeptical I'm you pity the country that has goes in for hero-worship that it's very dangerous indeed you should certainly be skeptical and wary and understand but you need some understanding that governments can't be popular all the time no government's gonna just do popular things if you're just going to say that every governments got to have a focus group and an opinion poll and then do what's going to be most popular when it appears in next Tuesday's headlines it's it's no way of running a well store that the government's has got to take on tough difficult things and be judged eventually by the effect of their policies and judgment of whether that things are going all right or not none of this instant sort of you know the man must be a scoundrel because he doesn't agree with me and he's just said this about something and anyway we're all used to the it has been around for a long time and so section the population the feeling well I don't vote for any of them can't see the point of it they're all as bad as each other then mainly difference anyway they're all any idiot for what they can get out of it if polar axis voting changed anything they wouldn't allow it all that kind of thing hey in fact I think the ethical standard supposed to defending my trade union the ethical standards of politicians are rather higher than the ethical standards of the general public they're higher than because they've got to be any other walk of life I've been involved in principle in the law and a bit of business but most I'm ready for the right reason there are a few scandals but everybody knows they're scoundrels so they get thrown out now they used to be just ostracized when I started and and of course but it's there's a balance to be struck and the balance has gone the wrong way and is that partly an angry protest is not a sound basis is that partly in large part even some would say the fault of people like you and I'm talking now inevitably about brexit and the approach that remainders of your I'm trying to find the least offensive word let's use a nice word sincerity because you you passionately believe in staying in the European you passionately believe in the European Union and you make that clear but you also risk because of your approach you and others like you demonizing those who take a different view you give the impression rightly or wrongly you give the impression that you think if you voted against staying in Europe if you're a brexit ouya you're sick all right no I've had that I've had that is one are you one that gets used when people want to challenge whose but firstly you're quite right I'm a lifelong believer in the European project no I mean I came into politics the main reason I decided I was a conservative one of the things that really finally decided me was Mac min was application to join there's a symmetry in my career but I hope I have never dismissed except when you occasionally meet somebody saying on in subject something completely stupid because there was to go to complete around their necks and then understand what you're talking about but that doesn't I don't dismiss the reason man I've never dismissed anything as well they've all voted because they're thick that would be bizarre but I do think that they take the referendum on both side probably about the equal mineral people were intelligent sensible reasonable people almost lightening the general public some of them you know equal numbers who were passionately for sensible reasons in favor of being in the EU and equally different different sensible reasons their judgment was pure games probably 30% of the population either side the votes of the others they went all thick the others but a lot of it was a whole welling up of protest folks of one kind or another so which canceled each other out that's allowed and and they went strictly about Europe indeed that's why I think the result was something akin to the extraordinary is it surprised everybody or all the pundits just knew that remain was going to win it was a startling result to the so-called experts every politician most journalists and justice Trump was and and so behind it is this bigger thing and it and say we did we make a mistake and I think Iran underestimated the problems over Europe I mean I was against holding referendum but anyway that's another matter but the I understood we were going to have a lot of traversée over Europe because it's for the last almost 50 years it has been an extremely divisive issue but I think we neglected the other thing that provoked all this was the crash 2008 the end of what appeared to be the golden years that had run up to it and then the crash which heats a lot of people very badly and I I think looking back as someone who was in the establishment in the 1990s I have to admit no one ever wants to join the establishment at that time become chance of his checking you own already the world I think when I went to g7 finance ministers and economic finance minister councils like offend and all that I we need to think we've got it right there was a great normality but we knew now had a run monetary policy and fiscal policy we were developing a globalized economy a rules-based international order there were these exciting new countries which were emerging China but all the other exciting new Asian and Latin American countries who of course were all going to become liberal democracies once they began to join the modern Western economy and living standards were rising globally poverty and levels of world poverty dropped a greater amount than they've ever dropped in history and it'd be a long time with their drop by the same amount again and it was okay and the country was getting better and the 1990s 2002 like that what we never noticed was the benefits were going to about 40 odd percent of the population the young the educated the ambitious the enterprising could get themselves into London and the Home Counties if a British into the new economy opportunities abounded and in the old rust bucket industrial towns where they've been D industrialized and some of the rural areas where all the lot of the Bright Young Things had left and we're never going to come back they weren't doing anything for them as we know in America and here and other countries the income of the average working person does not mean change whereas as far say could see there were some people getting filthy rich thriving in this bale brave new world I went along this is a familiar is becoming the rather cliche reason diagnosis now but the Left Behind and the fact that a lot of the public did not perceive the benefits of the new world being spread fairly and disliked the pace of change because it was threatening and leaving them behind that I think has upset the applecart well there's a day to day politicians running a department or something what you do about that it'll know where the next generation have really got to tackle that because the angry disaffection of a lot of people a simply a simple way of summing all that up though is to say that you the ruling class the politicians simply lost touch with the people and that's why we had that vote a few years ago and that's why it everybody said my god my god what's happening so in the end yeah I think we also lost the ability to we didn't explain it I mean I've already said you can't just respond my they say what do you want here it is I mean we're a bit about at the moment I mean God knows how much money every lobbies well it's an election campaign but somehow you've got to find some way explaining to everybody what's going on and if you think actually the benefits of not being perceived to be spread fairly but are not being spread fairly realize you've got to react I mean always when you in government particularly of course you have to be conscious of is what we're doing popular if not why not what are we going to do to make it popular and all that sometimes you should be at in act on and say well when they see it works it will be popular but that's not that kind of relationship now with the public well it but a lot of change them there one of the things that's changed is social media which you didn't have when you were in a disastrous anti-age old man's opinion well well well well will disastrous maybe because people no longer have to listen to you guys in the way that they once did they can talk to each other in the way that they couldn't before and they'd switch out views they don't agree with and we've always done that every extreme right-wing person every extreme left-wing person knows that the BBC's vast yes if you're a hard-line Marxist NBC's the capital is plot yeah if you're a hard-line right-wing nationalist the BBC's a socialist theater establishment plot yep and that's because you listen to the BBC you have to listen to interviewing people you don't agree with quite putting forward opinions that you don't like you go to social media and the only people you need exchange views were so many of you think the BBC's biased hand up if you do and those who think it is not biased know what I settle for that we both agree with that there's a very comforting audience John so that what is the answer then what a dumb question because it's such a vast question but how do you if we accept if you accept no matter what I think with you accepts that the politicians have broadly lost touch with the people how do you reconnect well that's the problem for next generation I think you've got to find a style a method of communicating what you're doing and getting back a sense of what the public thinks happening and what they feel you know back that's different from my generation in the days of town hall meetings the days when the only thing you need do is have a press conference and then go on the radio and go on the television and actually on Sirius programs you don't need to bother with rubbishy knockabout program so that does have the slight tendency you know the traditional politics Hoover only really being followed by the section of the pol a public who were as interested in politics as you are which let's face it is a minority and that's inevitable because you've got to be slightly dotty to be that obsessed with politics is you and I are and they're perfect left a lot of perfectly reasonable people who don't follow it particularly now nowadays it's all fragmented and you were all these social media sites and the newspapers aren't being read anymore and there are thousands of alternatives to television and radio so I regret to say that a lot of young people never watch television the tours and the you know it is you've got have had some method of communicating and somehow the the language I'm being very earnest this evening but but the fact that normally when you make a speech as a politician I've always be on the basis that the people of if you've got a live audience I says they've turned up because they're seriously interested in politics and I'm wondering are you talking like way rubbish they do you mean they think you're talking rubbish pretty better well make it sound so you're talking serious rubbish in you better tell them what you believe it and in your travel explaining that's got to be added to we haven't found that the political I don't think of anybody even get struck me as having a new style that robots this populism and this cynicism with which traditional politics is being treated but always has done hell as guys we've lowered the standards and gone down to a rather childish level of debate which I'm afraid I'm furious lastly but is it any any more childish than a politician a Labour politician a very distinguished Labour politician a few decades ago calling the Tories vermin lower than vermin ayran Bevin I mean it's not as if 50 60 70 years ago there was this great mutual admiration between the people and the politician if he'd done nothing other than saying that's the faintest notice ooh egg bite and I Bevin because anytime no doubt in the middle I never heard my Bevin but he always was brilliantly eloquent and he also was a very considerable political thinker and I mean he had you go into politics to make a difference so you knew what difference he want to make a scene it had made it he knew what and he was right arouse the enthusiasm of his audience indeed he didn't just give them the details of how the new health service was going to be structures of what the arrangements could to be for the recruitment of midwives or anything because even in those days that wouldn't have held your audience for very long he could liven it up with a few attacks on his opponents and that's one of his famous one was lower than the vermin but all right now Bevin was a great presenter and what were controversial politics I mean in fact Bevins opponents thought he was a communist some point of Cynthia the country but I talked about politicians today your views on Boris Johnson no I don't know Larry stages notice that well because again one problem the moment is it's all personalities but it's always come on it's always yes no there were more personalities because it wasn't maybe that's why we have this way we have this half-baked presidential system now where they're only three people actually because got little parties every now again they deprive the stage and you've got to have seven of them it's all about their personalities and and just like nine isn't great his worse than verbing if you give a long interview you know I may give a long interview and think that there we are I've given a profound statement on something another if in the middle of it I've said something rude about Boris that's what do you think that is I'll ask you [Laughter] no but there is a there is a serious point here a number of people when they knew I was going to talk to you tonight said to me ask him how he's gonna vote in the election so I'm asking you how you're going to vote well I have made my mind up what I think I've said publicly because they're actually the liberal candidates using each other's leaflets in my constituency but IIIi your well up your old not remember or paignton man I I'm in the position nobody knows we're talking about it was a spectacular by-election in the 60s I think early 60s by the way he is now doing what is known in the trade as ducking the question no I'm not all being the mad was it was a self you see that went liberal and and that was a protest vote discontented conservatives voted liberal as a protest it's happened the fate of the Liberal Democrats has usually been to be the vehicle for practice folks than one kind or another and they never quite built up a big enough thing so I'm one of those conservatives who's thinking of voting Liberal Democrat Michael has alliance confidently he's round campaigning there was any get rid of this Liberal Democrat I I am a lifelong conservative it's one surprise from the slightest yes sir I voted conservative in every general election yet because I've been a candidate at every general election since a lot of us too but that I really as a lifelong believer in the European project as someone who went to great lengths in the main interesting end of my career coder of my parliamentary career to me however else who can do can stop leaving with no deal no withdrawal agreement those sudden leaving you know and being asked to vote conservative again and my views are still in line with the mainstream policies of the conservative party for the first 60 years of my the membership it has changed a bit well you referendum you had the witness address in this room I think or a lot of people in the country lifelong conservatives like me are not sure they're gonna vote conservative what will make up your knife and on the labor side there are masses of them not sure they're going to vote Labour this time but what will make up your mind what what more gets said um what what where we think we're going really so what does the forest - I have to say to persuade Ken Clark to make me really confident that I should stick because I'm not hostile to Boris particularly what what what he'd have to say to make me confidence happen the vote conservative wording is some extremely clear indication of what it is he's going to negotiate and what the observers we have what the deal all we're dealing with is this three preliminary points and a perfectly straightforward withdrawal agreement which should have all been sorted out after six months but it's now a rather silly one with there we are so what could he say at this stage but he is going to go for not just the really broad phases about friendly relationships that we are going to try to keep intact as far as possible all our economic and trading as the members free access to the biggest and richest free trade area in the world economy in 21st century needs meaning we accept there are rules you can't have a trade deal with anybody if you don't have some understanding on product standards labor standards and all this kind of thing which if you don't want to stay in the single market you don't want to stay in the customs union well let's have regulatory alignment and the customs so you settle for that so it doesn't have to be member soft soft briggs and because i all right politics is compromise and pragmatism and I've compromised a lot because my I voted against invoking article 50 if I thought it would work I'm minutes we support revoking article 50 you'll never get it I've resigned to fade thanks to this blasted referendum you'll never get a parliamentary majority for that that's why I would settle for the softest possible brexit and I haven't gone on to mention all you should carry on us now on the town anti-terrorism Intelligence Sharing international policing medicines licensing you'll have to change it because we're leaving and that some things will have to have arrangements but that kind of in-depth relationship with our most important allies in the world and our most important market I'd settle for but and you're not satisfied with what he is offering at the moment well I don't know but I think anybody knows what he's offering I think my guess is that if he gets a majority and he'll settle down and start thinking about not all this about what we're we then go and what he is going to exactly negotiate because it's just broad but then we're there then into that is that dangerous territory from the negotiators point of view where you can't give you disclose your hand I mean it's a perfectly reasonable position isn't it to say I can't tell you precisely what I'm going to do because I got to be sitting on the opposite side of a negotiating table but but the objectives I write it is quite obvious on both sides of the table obviously you care what your practice what the practical interests of the other party are all this stuff that we had to pretend we wanted to leave with no deal because otherwise they wouldn't give us anything there's a sort of people you're negotiating with know perfectly well that no withdrawal agreement will be a total catastrophe for the British they also we know and they know it would also not do them any good like that yeah but that's why you can't enjoy anyway you can if you're if you add them lots of negotiating but how these people in the house are cons claim they don't love negotiating I think most of them have the I don't you sit there by making preposterous protestations that you're going to put a pistol to your head unless they give you some it's nonsense it the of course the details when I say regulatory alignment there can be wrong negotiating the actual terms of the regulatory alignment you're going to have for goods this is it trailing goods that'll take experts from specialist knowledge of many sectors of the economy a very long time but they'll tell you you'll be casting your vote in a matter of days that's the whole point yeah but I'd like to know that we're heading for something that preserves as much of the economic benefits of the EU as possible and does something to try to retain some of our political voice in the world because I personally believe as every conservative leading conservative every Prime Minister I've ever served under if government have ever served in every conservative mainstream conservative politician house until three years ago that being in the EU makes Britain a much more powerful country politically but you lost that argument and there we go we are well economically because we were a laughing stock before we I don't have these nostalgic memories of the 1960s so you have we were an economic laughingstock before we joined being left behind by countries has been devastated in the war and it's not the only reason you know I have the makings of a potential modern economy and so on but it's been the basis tickley wits we the British a Conservative government persuaded the Europeans to go move to the single market it's one of the key basis on which we built up compatibly thriving position in the modern world and that the second bid we could largely keep because you can't get a trade agreement with anybody if you say I I want you to throw your markets open to me of course they're not gonna mean rules we're sovereign we will decide what rules we have we just want you to open your markets to us and doing systems heading things to us well tour rights long as you comply with whatever the rules we have are that that's ludicrous you would want let me yeah who a New Guinea to agree to that and then probably I know that very shrewd we we could talk about this all night could we're not going to let me you're getting me bogged down in the details of European policy no well not exactly not exactly but I still have enough notes from you know you're gonna vote now guys taking that made my mind up you have made in mind that exactly I should just say there's no time anyway let's put that in one side for a moment and let's see what the audience would like to know about all conservatives you're a doubtful conservative will say to you as a canvasser okay and if I would all right so I know one more question then I am the person on the locker as it were and the Tory with a nice little thing on my hand and and I hope you open the door to me and I say and how are you going to vote mr. Clark um can we rely on your boat and you're going to say I'm a doubt will concern what does he or she the knocker on the door have to say to persuade you to vote for them well you'd be amazed what Cadmus has put down sometimes but they the optimistic ones we've said well they stand there and argue with you slogan go away and simply dams conservative why should they say to get you well no well they were like that we don't do knocking up on the day at all but they're not going to knock you up very really they're not going to turn you out because you they don't sure let's say if I mentioned out for conservative it was a marginal seat they probably would but they go back in that's it and I mean what you've got to try and do is you've trying to get a sense what trends what you're doing we canvassing nowadays we used to do all these knocking others people didn't have cars and things and you give lives nowadays they just seem to be checking on the opinion polls a lot of time I mean if you've got an organization you've got to start thinking if you're picking up a lot of people like this what can we put in our leaflets that might get more of these people to be cheered up and come on side and it if you work out get out of you why you're doubtful who what can we say who can we succumb and sense somebody along trying to get this bloke to make his mind you sound like a grumpy old man I'm practicing I repeat I repeat what I said outside I said I am practicing to be a grumpy old man and my children say I need no practice whatever questions ladies and gentlemen there's microphones up there and then in the there we are yes over there number ooh I can't see the number what do you say three does it good God can you read three on that I can't all right number three yeah well now I can are terrible colors then mood anyway off you go yes sir and then there's one over there mr. Locke what's you like keep you on the outcome of this election who will win the majority and if no one who which party do you think will have the majority to form a coalition in your home government assuming there is a coalition well firstly and I think this election is more unpredictable than any I can remember boring on with my ax theme a moment ago I've never known any the population so angry and volatile because traditional loyalties are broken down in a different way you know conservative things are broken down in London and the Home Counties and labour loyalties are broken down in Barnsley and and all this kind of things available to predict it so that's the caveat getting me out in the first place the only one who could win a majority is Boris I think that's already clear there could be a conservative majority and the only alternative is a hung parliament that's really because only two things have happened of any significance since it started the first is the brexit Party has collapsed Nigel Faraj keeps forming political parties which are really Faraj parties he gets in extreme right-wing people of varying times some heavily sensible people have shown that there are not dismissing crowds of my opponents and all that's fit but if you form an extreme right-wing party you get a lot of oddballs all mixed up with them and they will start falling out with each other even neither all I can't do much about that his original you kids gone wandering off now and but they all fell out with each other about where they were all going to stand and we're all going to carry on and he I don't think he it didn't me so he wanted to withdraw or harvest candidates but since he's withdrawn his half his candidates it's reduced the position of the the brexit party to being slightly ridiculous and irrelevant and is collapsed and the Conservatives have branded themselves as the brexit party and it's put them way and then even the poles because the remainders are divided but they collapse of the brexit party who did look as though they were going to be a substantial fourth force has put the chances of success firmly in the hands of the conservative the second thing that's happened as it's been in my opinion is it become perfectly obvious that Jeremy Corbyn could not be elected Prime Minister this country if he carried on trying for a thousand years he is absolutely he costs his party last number of votes if we're in the politics of my earlier years and some bright social democrat of the moderate wing of the Labour Party was leading the Labour Party at the moment maybe in hating the polls out of sight winning easily but every Labour MP I bumped into and loud labour campaigners tell me they're spending their life having to save two people on doorsteps yet it's all right but I'm not Jeremy Corbyn I don't say why you should vote for them so he's unelectable can I just be there for once and that means a hung parliament is a possibility just once one said does that does that make you sad or happy that the Tories that the Labour Party is going to lose because of Jeremy Corbyn or would you prefer the Labour Party to have what you would regard and I suspect many people in this room would regard as a reasonable leader a reasonable leader of the Opposition who would give the Tories a real fight would you prefer I before that I think politics has been best it's worked best to them I mean you know that in the national interest as a real thank you very much what works best when you have a government in power and have a perfectly acceptable government in Waiting that quite obviously would be quite capable of replacing them and we differently because it disagrees but you know wouldn't you be alright and that has worked well over the years actually when I been in government government function better when you're facing a lot of rather competent people giving you a good run for your money because it's quite obvious they could run a government as well and then was a genuine choice and and I don't know I mean with hindsight heaven at the time there was a very one-sided election just we may have complete we told ourselves a part of an argument about the blasted Maastricht bill but you know the major government versus the Blair opposition that's the kind of choice it's in the national interest I and I think most of the elections before and fall roughly into that category and the the the last time that one of the parties made itself an electable was was Michael foot but thought was not as unpopular as Corby knees and the thought was a more credible character not just administrator them know even he was a very very nice very distinguished very eloquent man and he wasn't as left-wing I didn't think is the Corbin Easter's and and so usually you've had that choice here we are in the middle of an historic crisis where we're probably going to determine Britain's role in the world and our relationships of the world and certainly our economic relationships in the world in a fairly important way for the next generation or two and and neither part is in its normal condition they're both slightly bizarre versions of the Conservative Party and the Labour Party as they were very most of my career so may I direct that so I'd like the good credible Labour Party because it made the Conservative Party come to the senses in my biased view and start presenting a program for serious program for government and then the intelligent people would decide this so their answer what the judgment of the electorate so may I may I do what journalists are renowned for doing in fact it's probably the first commandment for journalists which is first simplify than exaggerate and and what you've just said I see the headline in tomorrow's papers Clarke for the return of Blair is that term that's probably the headline will appear because of the marvelous habit of sub-editors of just ever so slightly a nuance what you've actually learned about Qatar from going into Iraq which thank you very much mr. dark for your very interesting statements may I draw you out on one point you say that the Conservative Party's become a bizarre version of it so could you forecast what is going to happen to it now is it going to become a nationalist Senna phobic ultra right-wing version of the party you join in or is he going to move back to becoming more of the one nation conservative party of which you've long been a supporter is this the end of the Tory party as we know I think he will come back and I think the great bulk of people is everybody then changed I mean in both parties will I think I think because unless public opinion has changed in this nature in the United Kingdom pulling back towards the center will eventually happen although the moment public opinion is as polarized as political opinion on this one toxic topic of brexit but I mean there are extreme right-wing people in the party and extreme left-wing people in the labour party who assumed they were going to purge the the the Wigner that let safe take the safe example of the Labour Party some of the Corbin Easter's hate Blair writes more than they hate Tories and we're gonna deselect them all yeah and all the rest of it well unfortunately I don't think it's gonna happen to either party because they have nested pursed many people and actually out there that sort of people who are candidates the sort of people who actually again determine things the parliamentary parties haven't fundamentally altered since the hysteria of the moment and actually the Conservative Party about we haven't staked ourselves to anything that's you know sort of launching out into some great new extraordinary phrase the broad brush things that have been said are all compatible with eventually producing a sensible agreement and close agreement of until that times are saying and I say working out that we do have to live in the modern world and that we're not gonna mean some living in some isolation is splendor either politically or economically after all this there's really nothing very specific it's been said that wouldn't stop a new Conservative government becoming a perfectly Orthodox right normal type a Conservative government he watch it actually does and would that it might mean Boris slipping away from the exact words he used occasionally once twice but has done that once or twice absolutely so but he could do it Boris Johnson could do it could reunite he could he's intelligent man what do you want to he keeps I mean you know yeah he keeps praying in public that he's a one nation conservative but he has said to me as well and something these instincts it's true I mean it is I mean he's not doesn't have a it doesn't have an illiberal past of their part from again his I realized that would come people think he's an unfortunate choice of phrase and some of his articles on Muslim women things perhaps might dispute that but they it doesn't he's not an alien and he's not and until then until the day that the referendum campaign started I would not have said break it when he was a particularly right-wing conservative person he has no idea he was a brexit chair I'm not sure he did express the opinion that we should actually leave the European Union with that can I suggest to you by the way if you're up there well you are up there not if you're up there if you want to ask a question there is a mic there nobody so if you want to ask question do as it will queue up and and in the meantime we'll take another cut and and also over there of course at this one up there as well yes there is indeed well take before I take that question though I've also been asked to remind you that there are going to be a books on sale after this event that is to say the important one which is Ken's autobiography and and mine as well the only thing the only thing going for mine is it's written slightly more recently Bruce mines preethi campaign yeah number four mr. Clark can you think of any good reason for Britain leaving the European Union not a good question yeah well because I am a sort of moderate or centrist sort of politician sorry I ought to be able to think there are a lot of things wrong with the EU but when people to him say that and then there are they're thin quite often in specific things that one day one of David Cameron's problems when in order to justify the delay before he called the referendum said he was going to get reforms but conversation I had with him II the first idea what reforms he was going to see really it was just one of the snags [Laughter] I mean the like every international institution the European Union is slow bureaucratic and it constantly having to compromise there that is inevitable with any international organization through the United Nations through NATO through the World Trade Organization World Health Organization mean all of them afraid and they drive you up the wall if you're a normal impatient politician wanting to take decisions it's because once you've got more than half a dozen countries all with their own domestic politics their own media their own short-term pressures elections coming and so on it's no good just thinking you can see there and have a committee meeting or take a vote and you move sort that out in a couple of hours and move on to the next thing you have to have these torturous processes as these are other multiple organizations and so the EU is tortuously slow sometimes I sort of I'm an impatient combative sort of guy really but I somehow I used to like European meetings but I would have to suspend my normal things I settle down hours and hours of Twente on people all making a speech about it nothing being sorted out the end because you know next time we might make some progress right but that's not a good word is it you could try it will be not at least believe knows I'm explaining why we shouldn't but in fact the rice and tea leaves why I supported mastering why we needed structural reforms to make it just a little less exasperatingly frustratingly slow and we believed what what do they do this I deeply object to what they engages in I hate to say yeah I mean it's a makes me sad obviously I'm absolutely out the worst of the worst of the worst I can't think of a reason to justify leaving it because I don't actually no one's explained to me what they think we gain by leaving it they all say oh we're gonna run our own affairs take back control and all those all these regulations so you say well what regulations alright let's see let's not rerun you cannot think of a single reason even if they were to announce next Thursday we ought to judge by leaving justified even so if they wanted a European army if they wanted to do you know whatever haven't you can block of European oh well right but so there isn't a single thing that they could do however expansion so they could do things you may be relieved yeah well will you take some sort of bizarrely aggressive foreign policy stance and want everybody signed up to it Middle East or something mad we have a lot of common interests we've got to protect to get there we should cooperate with them but again we see we are one of the big three sometimes were there that we were not going to start engaging in some oddball policy led by some other populist from some other European country because you either have a veto in practice even if you formally don't have a veto in the end if the Germans say they're not doing it if the French say they're not doing it if the British say they're not doing it it's a thousand that and all the smaller countries used to rely on the fact that the big three didn't dominate it because they never all agree with each other so at any given stage you could set off two against one and you find there French engine english' beyond what British should be on one side and the Germans on the other or you know whatever combination you're not so having that obviously of something so I would draw the line act completely but then we would say sir proposed and don't believe that mr. dinner at the time the referendum I think we were warned that they were about to be in a regulation banning kettles but I don't think anybody ever has proposed a regulation to ban kettles and had object to that very strongly but I I I wouldn't leave if it was promulgated I think there are bigger reasons well they have great relief oh I thought you had a microphone right can we give this person up microphone and in the meantime then and then we'll get one over there well I think one good thing is coming out of the election is it is consolidating the rather remarkable change in opinion that has changed in the last two years I mean within the last couple of years maybe all down to David Adler there the public opinion has become overwhelmingly convinced that something's got to turn about climate change and that we are not doing enough and all that now the course as a minority who disagree with that but that scarcely anybody who's any serious position in practicing politics and I think great majority of the public overwhelmingly amongst the young are just now angry and impatient and that something's got to be done about climate change it hasn't got much further than that we have done quite a lot for our progress having reduced carbon emissions more than any other OECD member I think and all that but now the scientists are probably right I mean they're persuading me that we got to go much much quicker than this but he what's going to make nobody well nobody's spelled out any policies that really do that because at the moment that the campaigners and the public all agreed that much more urgency on climate change not it's quite difficult to agree get anybody to agree certainly get anybody to advocate openly the specific things we would have to do which would involve quite dramatic cost and changes to aspects of our lifestyle so at the moment we reach the stage of enthusiastic swapping of targets and broad assertions and everybody's now passing votes to declare a climate emergency or that's made a huge difference and now you're all calling it an emergency and your target is 2050 he might not be 2035 and it's not good enough it isn't 2025 and all this quite what we're going to do to make a significant reduction in carbon emissions and actually influence other similar nations that help take the lead in doing it we haven't quite got there and all the unpopular things which a lot of these were in the short term be quite unpopular when they're first announced everybody shows some extinction rebellion will no more advocate them then the brexit party will advocate them so it just to be provocative I'm not suggesting they get me important tomorrow as actually CS ting is just practical politics I tease people it's slightly self-indulgent forgive me but I'll give you examples to things that would make a difference I think I actually introduced them both so we should obviously reintroduce the fuel tax escalator this fuel tax freeze it's utterly if you're worried about green policies and you've got to start making it people start thinking seriously about using American cars list so bring back the fuel tax escalator and air passenger tax which I introduced is wholly inadequate it's about not anytime and if I was back at the Treasury I wouldn't also send it myself and it raised some money and try and give it a policy reason but same time for doing so he only needs some money so bring back the fuel tax escalator and in a passenger that put a double air passenger tax now the opinion poll will tell you that ninety-five percent of the public we're totally opposed to both those it will be political death for anybody seriously to advocate either of those measures in the election could go on there's a whole lot more like that there but public opinion is right in the right place and is going to put pressure on whoever forms a gotten out of this election and if we can acquire some political skills you've got actually to do it sell it do it steadily I'm not squeamish about my arts you know time it well it about my trade my politics but you know but you've got a time it properly face the storm when you can afford to face the storm say people why it's been done say it's not too bad when you've done it getting back to the skills of persuading the public and if you won't do something about climate change this is doing less inclined to see my go wrong president micron was face brought in a perfectly good green tax and that's what led to the creation of the Yellow Jackets he's been facing violence in the streets ever since and so it's tricky and that's why I say I think the arts of politics Linnaean I had a very popular first budget and whether it was any good or not Billy Loes to judge but at least I think nobody argues he was hugely popular I can believe it because nobody noticed I had raised the tax burden on the country with greatest amount in any single budget since the war but I'd slipped in a penny reduction in income tax at the end and that was that that was the exit line and it seemed to work something you know more subtle than that is gonna be required to get some more movement on climate change but isn't it monumental I don't know if I suspect this might have been at the back of our questioners mind there isn't it monumental depressing that there are plenty of politicians out there serious politicians and there are certainly plenty of people especially young people probably the vast majority of young people certainly thinking young people who regard climate change as so much the biggest issue facing us today far bigger than brexit talking about the future of the planet isn't it desperately sad that there is no serious politician prepared to stand up in front of the cameras and say ladies and gentlemen we are facing the greatest crisis humanity has ever faced and therefore what we should be doing are these things that will occasion huge sacrifices on the part of pop I know it's going to be unpopular I know the opinion polls will tell me apart but nonetheless that's what I believe in there isn't a single senior well attrition out there who has the nerve to do this and there's no I mean it might be girls I'm not squeamish by my train that would be any subject absolutely suicidal yeah stop inducing your most difficult policies at the time of the election has quite a resume of what a powerful time a sensible policy on Social Care it was the only grown-up policy either party put forward I was one of the few people who defended it but then in last for more about 48 hours you just don't do that in the middle I got an election obviously putting forward things that you think of popular as shutting up other things but you you do the unpopular things in the if you get a proper majority of Boris gets probe majority all the things you think you've got to do a in the national interest be in order to look like a successful government in three or four years time which is the time scale you you'll be thinking of not next week's newspapers but what you can look like three or four years time do those in the first half of the Parliament I'm part open to real world of democratic politics once she realized you've got an election in the next year or two old or other bright ideas which are ganna not be very popular put them in the drawer and they're gonna be able to do those if you get another majority that's how fast you work I mean whatever else you may think about Thatcher she was a conviction politician never read newspapers couldn't care less about opinion polls we were immensely unpopular as a gunman I was a minister all the way through I never had a popular policy over suddenly my department that I was implementing half the most attire I was the middle of Wow controversy we sank in the opinion polls too astonishingly low levels but you laid off a bit towards the end you didn't do anything too dramatic in the last 18 months or so if you'd got it right if what you've done actually was beginning to have some effect people forgot they were ever against it and they think no they're not doing too badly suspect somebody had to do it and we got reelected and and and that is so far removed from where we are now but tough no one's ready I think with tough green policies when if someone had tough green policies get get your majority and then the first year or two have a tough environment minister who's gonna just get on and do it every Chancellor who's prepared to put his tin hat on and bring back the fuel tax escalator for example which I hasten to add it gets the journalists here I'm not seriously advocating by the Conservative Party we'll put out ferocious press releases denying that any sense just I think we've think we've said a fuel tax freeze will remain when we have anything else has been frozen I think when you get back to the real world in your governing first part of the Parliament do it second part the Parliament I hope it's work if it hasn't you do anyway if it's working a bit you might you might I mean and we hear and we can't assume that your first speech in the House of Lords is going to be a long think he should be in the House of Lords [Applause] in the first-past-the-post system ever changing and would you like it to change well no I wouldn't I've always defended it I was defending it because it's extremely good discipline on the politicians and an extremely good discipline on the public because the first-past-the-post system we force our politicians to produce big broad-based pre-packed coalitions the British Labour Party and the British Conservative Party would not be a single party in any other country with the exception of the United States where the same pressures apply the Tony Blair and George Galloway were happily in the same political party for over a decade which would not be possible in any other system and the good examples on the Tory side as well and so after this wide range of center left and left center right right people put together a body of things that grew they got any sense not in too much detail in the manifesto but a broad understanding of what they're then presenting and so a pre-packed coalition is put now the public who otherwise might be tempted to vote for all kinds of things you know the individual person has a particularly strong view on you know some planning policy now on the road or as particularly strong views and what we ought to be doing in about nurses or whatever there's danger they vote for little narrow its interest partyís which and you get you fragment the result and I think the British are particularly bad would be at forming coalition's although than what we had 2010 was amazingly successful to my surprise but normally we may find in this election if we have a hung parliament trying to get a coalition out of party sort of rather section themselves into little silos it's quite difficult so that's how I've always defended it it mate forces the public and not just the politicians face up to the real business of government not just indulging yourself because you happen to like this particular form of Trotskyism or whatever it is in your game for the narrow party which will get six seats and we've got about six or seven policies of parties in Parliament already now that is breaking down the first-past-the-post system is not having that effect because both the major parties so and let go into the dangerous business of using rather loose language about house both the measured both the major parties are not in their usual condition at this particular okay election but I hope if you look at this present but wouldn't wouldn't a proportional representation make it even worse you will get ten parties in Parliament almost incapable of agreeing with each other unless we rediscover the Arts that compromise and pragmatism in Westminster which we've rather lost we've got ten minutes left and try and fit in a couple of quick ones number for that and then can we get as you know grains rain for sighs better off you go I always asked to give short answers and never to John's suffered that few years depart maybe a short question do we pay em peas enough oh that's easy yes on ok it's about right I'm glad we've taken it out of their hands nobody accepts through the other hands every time you give a pay rise you'll be immensely unpopular so there's also songs you brace yourself for an outburst of Rage the morning after their raises that's it it's about right you've got to try to attack amongst the people you get in you want a representative crowd but you've got to try to attract some of the best brains and the best people in the country if you really want a good government you've got to accept you're gonna have people in it who could make a little lot more money and a much easier job outside and for that reason you have to pay properly and you mustn't have a you must mustn't have a level of pay which causes people to make immense sacrifices for themselves and their families compared with ahead outside now now we haven't got that I'm not claiming this isn't a mental sacrifice now but it's about right and I wouldn't reduce it if you okay to an opinion poll 95 percent of the public would say they're paid too much and if we are going to govern the country in that way well you have to brace yourself for the country gentry and the prosperous lawyers taking over all the seats again because you have to earn their living outside in some way which is what I did when I was first elected there we go yeah yep gentlemen yep quick one if the conservative majority would you worry for the unity of the United Kingdom well depending what they do I am worried about the unity of the night again and I generally I genuinely think it is in the interests of the four countries for nations to remain in a United Kingdom I think if there would be one thing sillier than putting a new boarder with barriers down the channel leaned over you know and Calais it would be trying to put in new border arrangements along Hadrian's Wall and recreating the medieval kingdoms and moving back to our past I cannot think of anything more zini to do in the 21st century we are creating one of the best opportunities for nationalists that they're ever going to have in Scotland and in Northern Ireland by the nature of the debate we're having if you believe which I don't obviously I'm a gathering I'm the firm unionist but if you want to make the case that Scotland's be ignored that the UK Parliament is useless for Scotland that we're just all these English just are not promote lis interested in our opinions or our interests on recipe well the same thing in Northern Ireland well if you can't make that case now you're never going to make it which is why the SNP are so desperate desperate to have a referendum as soon as they possibly can because unintentionally the English debate is perfect for maximizing their support and they probably still wouldn't win because of Scots route as the English have a kind of canny section of their population who also feel it it's a bit unreal and will be disastrous for them but this is the best chance they're ever going to have and they tell me in Ireland if you continue if you don't negotiate yourself out of this position we've got totally different arrangements for Northern Ireland so you permanently got what will ever if you have a heart breaks it will rapidly become ever-increasing differences across the Irish Sea and again an apparent total disregard for the opinions and of the Irish and the all Irish economy and so on you are running the risk all right driving the IRA says the only thing that will save ours they need one more case you have to have a vote in air as well I don't think the Republic will want the northern eye right to come in but the Northern Irish will there it goes out that's the three that I don't think this is probably gonna have to be the last question well mr. Clark you've always been a bit of a hero for me mainly to Wells pragmatic and you have always judged the world with common sense particularly in the time that you've been a backbencher now that she's gone who do you think will be able to take over that most important role in the house no I laugh your slightest barb comment you a question obviously without a ministry you want a tribal say health secretary so are you trying to get me into personalities again what going matter what I said a moment ago I'm basically optimistic I think the real world will make whatever government selected that come to some sensible conclusions over year we cannot go completely mad we are a modern developed country and there are plenty of brexit ears who don't want a heart breaks it Michael Gove like me has voted for every deal that's been presented to Parliament and he's a don't doubt his Michael is passionately sincere anti European Union politician but he's not in fact very having no agreements tearing up all our arrangements he quite obviously is coming you're not allowed to go back there my last question the the quality of people we're attracting into Parliament remains astonishingly high despite all the difficulties all the insults some very good people have been put off after Parliament to and are stepping down some of the less well-known ones are disillusioned people on both sides who have had enough of it but still bringing good people to single out one person or one or two people now there are some very good people on both sides really sorry invidious to start and tom to than her who Tory Atkins or Jory Apprentice probably not heard of any of them could give you a similar list of names from the Labour Party and the Liberal Party I think it's we've not run out although I say what we haven't found is the leading figure who's quite got mastered yet the style or the presentation which has got to change isn't traditional politics doesn't quite work we were waiting for the man or woman who has the mastery of today's media social media which is nothing hadn't anything about it but my Twitter site is bogus but I'm told very good no idea or she is may not probably long this country person will emerge all right and he won't be trained by a public relations officer that the most successful politician and most of my career in Europe they won by one of my great heroines he's it's all over for her now it's Angela Merkel now and Angela Merkel's made more difference and practically any of my contemporaries she and Nigel Farraj and their different ways impact on politics and it is Angela a product of a public relations school did she have a makeover did she reproduce the Kennedy image type politician well with great respect to Angela no she didn't she's she's a good one off in a because I have a very you know mumsy slightly cautious straight and her way of oppressing things but at her peak she was tremendous all right a new type of politician has not yet emerged that's what we need and I won't put a name on back because I have no idea who is going all right well let me let me finish with this question observation both you are many people believe that you're the best brother history we never had and you came very very close a few times very close and you've held most of the major Offices of state had you been Prime Minister and you must obviously thought about it deal obviously thought it was greatly over the years how different would this country be today how and you've only got Ken two minutes to answer yeah well you're very kind everybody break I don't have my head turned who all these Cisco and flattering alright but it's often because I have had that said to me before I all say that it's a great club to belong to the greatest prime minister we never had all that blah blah because Roy Jenkins belong to it then is Healy belong to it if he how belong to it michael heseltine belong to it it's a great clubs the best club to belong to because no one will ever know how bad really would have been [Applause] quite oh yeah I noticed that he ducked that question as well but that's alright because it did so elegantly and so amusingly and i repeat what i said he's he has been a joy I would say to work for that work I would occasionally nasty horrible questions and all that but he has been one of those politicians of whom you say after 33 years doing the today programs I did well when you did Ken Clark you knew that he would engage with not you know sometimes he would but with the audience and he would connect with the audience and by and large he would try to tell you the truth and by and large you would both believe and trust him and that's quite a lot to say about a single odd [Applause] [Music] [Applause]

Channel: Intelligence Squared

Views: 29,811

Rating: 4.2395835 out of 5

Keywords: ken clarke, john humphrys, brexit, general election 2019, election, ge2019, conservatives, labour, jeremy corbyn, tories, tory party, europe, parliament

Id: zLTOawVKXEA

Length: 82min 37sec (4957 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 09 2019