Kathleen Folbigg, convicted of killing her four children, speaks from behind bars | Australian Story

[Music] you are about to receive a phone call from an image of an operational hunter your conversation will be recorded and may be monitored [Music] Kathy's rings about 9:30 in the morning most days I've known Kat since we were little at primary school together but generally are you feeling okay yeah Kathy in 2018 she has a way of analyzing things now that maybe she wouldn't had 15 16 years ago Honda Valley woman Kathleen phobic has been found guilty of killing her four children she's not standing there screaming all the time I've been wrongly done that's not Kathy's way she would rather sit there go through the process and let the world see that they made a really big mistake if the objective truth is that mrs. phobic did not kill one or more of her children then she is suffering unjustifiably the problem is knowing what the objective truth is and in this case that is taken to be that she did kill them I am not persuaded that the jury got it wrong [Music] [Music] Kathleen file B has been in jail now for 15 years for the murder of three of her children and manslaughter of of one the evidence against her was entirely circumstantial [Music] I try to get out to see Catalina's as often as I can so I Drive from New Castle to assess not will go through what's happening with the the legal process in 2013 I gathered together the great legal minds in New Castle and started researching and looking into it I'm not an advocate for Kathleen phobic all I'm doing is pointing out that there is sufficient reason to have an inquiry Australia's leading forensic pathologist has given an opinion he is supported by other international experts there are natural causes of death in this case we submitted the petition in 2015 and it's been sitting in the attorney general's office for two years Catharine phobic it's incredibly frustrating but we all just wait I have looked at the petition that mrs. Wahlberg has lodged I've looked at the reports that have accompanied that petition I remain of the view that the jury was correct [Music] there's no doubt okay they had a difficult life long before she ended up in jail at the age of three she was placed in a foster family all I wanted was her sister and I got one she was a glorious little girl she was really lovely she was the center of attention and then my son was born and Kathy was just ignored it was a real shame because she was part of the family Kathy came to school it was the day after her 16th birthday just sat down and said I'm not adopted my parents are only foster parents and they've just told me all this yesterday Kathy told me that her father had murdered her mother which is how she ended up in the foster care system [Music] Kathleen's father Thomas Britton was a Balmain dockworker he liked to drink and so did her mother Kathleen Donovan when her mother left in a in a fight he went after her he begged her to come back when she refused eventually he stabbed her 24 times great birthday present to give someone to totally shatter their world and everything that they believed in for most of their life she finished school after the trial HSC and she met Craig around that time caleb was the the firstborn he was born on the 1st of February 1989 sadly he only lived 19 days Kathleen said she'd gone to check on him and she'd found him limp and lifeless Caleb's cause of death was determined at autopsy to be sudden infant death syndrome a sudden death of an infant under 1 year of age which remains unexplained once she was pregnant with Patrick she was apprehensive but she was excited the general consensus was that it only happens once [Music] Patrick was born on the 3rd of June 1990 when he was about 4 months old Cathy said she found him to be not breathing Craig performed CPR Kathleen called an ambulance and Patrick was revived on that occasion Patrick developed severe brain damage stemming from that life-threatening event nothing but ultimately led to his seizure disorder four months later when Patrick was eight months old calf had put Patrick down for a sleep and she said she went in and found him not breathing an ambulance was called but he wasn't able to be resuscitated on that occasion [Music] the pathologist has determined the death in Patrick's case was due to Airways obstruction which was in turn due to epileptic fits which was in turn due to a nun careful Apothic disorder or disease of the brain we were both pregnant at the same time so we then hung out together when Sarah was little Cathy was very attentive I never looked after Sarah I didn't have any CPR training and I didn't take any offense that she wouldn't leave Sarah with me in August 1993 when Sarah was 10 months old Kathy said she got up to to check on Sarah and found her to be lifeless an ambulance was called and she was unable to be resuscitated [Music] the Sara's death was determined to be a sudden infant death syndrome case the effect of busy babies when Laura came along we were just absolutely thrilled the whole of my family knock on the door but we were really scared that something was gonna happen to Laura Laura was special she was more of a person she wasn't just a baby and she was adored by everyone she was a beautiful little kid you just love doing that don't ya you feat you're funny when she had her first birthday boy could we go to town because this is the first time one of the kids had actually made her first birthday she was around the long-distance when she got to 12 months we we actually got me one hymen hoid on the first of March 1999 Laura was about 19 months old Craig had gone to work calves he went to the gym and she took Laura with her and then Laura fell asleep in the car on the way home Cathy said she'd transferred her inside left her asleep and then checked on her about 15-20 minutes later and found it to be not breathing [Music] I immediately got complainant Laura suffered from it a cold like illness during the week prior to death she ultimately was found to have my colitis at autopsy and that's typically caused by a viral infection Michael itis means inflammation of the heart muscle dr. Carla the autopsy pathologist who comes back to the autopsy on Laura determined that the cause of death was in fact undetermined when Laura died she was aged about 18 to 20 months then that's just far too old for that death to be called sudden infant death syndrome Allan Carla did a thorough examination of Laura's little body this is a fourth child his family and he said well I can't say to you 100% that Laura wasn't suffocated the common view from the DPP and from other groups was ya look suspicious yeah we think she did it but basically you're never breath probably cuz the circumstantial nature of the case there'd be no smoking gun as it were in the 90s and the early part of this century there was a general sentiment that one death no family is a tragedy to death and same family is suspicious and three infant death and same family should be considered as homicide until proven otherwise the big turning point in the case was when we received a phone call from Krait he wanted to have a talk about things Prager taught us that Kathleen continually became stressed with the children and then finally he said my wife keeps a diary and they're suspicious entries in that November night only $1.99 his October 1997 I know there's nothing wrong with her nothing out of the ordinary anyway cuz it was me not them wouldn't have handled another like Sarah she saved her life by being different the stress made me do terrible thing got so bad and nearly purposely dropped her on the floor and left what scares me most will be when I'm alone with the baby with Sarah all I wanted was a - shut up one day she did from that nine-minute was a murder investigation from that moment I read the door you know what sort of person would kill for children Cathy did you kill Karla no no did you try to kill a tree on that nearest no did you kill Sara did you actually patinas questions that I sort of finally semi clicked what was going on it was just so shocking to me and it was dawning and realization that people have been saying things and people are listening as Director of Public Prosecutions I was ultimately responsible for all the prosecution of serious offenses in New South Wales ultimately I decided that there was a reasonable prospect of conviction Kathleen Megan foul big has pleaded not guilty to murdering the children in the build-up to the phobic trial there was obviously an enormous amount of media attention this was a woman accused of killing her four children and if found guilty she would be Australia's worst female serial killer I went to the trial it was seven and a half weeks of emotionally wrenching evidence the crown says the accused smothered each of her children to death she either deliberately killed them or wanted to render them unconscious to in effect put them to sleep the Crown's theory was that Cathleen Fahlberg killed each child in a moment of uncontrolled anger and then immediately raised the alarm in perhaps remorse at what she had done one of the most compelling aspects of the prosecution was the craic the father of these children actually gave evidence against Kathleen Craig said Kathy was very very stressed around the children particularly around the time of Sarah and Laura's death and he described this deep guttural growl that would come from Kathy and how Laura in particular would collapse on the floor the Supreme Court heard today how a woman accused of smothering her four children kept a diary detailing her dark moods the diary entries were a very powerful voice in the case and in the courtroom Kathleen did not give evidence herself so she allowed the diaries to be her voice she's a fairly good natured baby thank goodness it has saved her from the fate of her siblings I think she was warned I feel like the worst mother on this earth scared that she'll leave me now like Sarah did and you I was short-tempered and cruel sometimes to her she left with a bit of help the diary entries were open to the interpretation that these were the private confessions of a guilty person why else would she write that her child had left with a bit of help the prosecution case was very strong there was the husband the Diaries the police witnesses the medical expert dr. Carla's evidence was perhaps the most important medical evidence at trial dr. Carla had conducted the autopsy on Laura he'd found myocarditis information in Laura's heart as dr. Carla's opinion that the extent of the myocarditis in law's heart was not that that there was not very enough disease to be readily associated with a cause of sudden death dr. Carter's opinion that myocarditis was unlikely to have been the cause of Laura's death was supported by other medical experts in the trial dr. Karla and others considered that rather than the expression SIDS a better description of the causes of death would have been undetermined well certainly in my view reading the expert reports that were available at trial a jury could well be satisfied that there was no natural cause of death for each of the four children there was never one single piece of evidence that said yes kathleen phobic did it but over the course of a seven and a half week trial the weight of evidence built up a compelling picture the prosecutor underlined in the case the fact that Kathleen had found the first three children dead had not picked them up and had not attempted CPR the defense countered by saying that she was a loving mother and there was a lack of physical evidence that those children had actually been smothered - the case of Kathleen fall big found guilty of killing her for infant children justice Grampa found that Kathleen phobic had displayed a distinct lack of grief he says she's unlikely to ever admit her guilt to anyone but herself Kathleen stood there and as the verdict was delivered she buckled and cried and it was absolutely awful to watch I was very upset but pleased that I found guilty that would have been absolute shock just a whole time Kathy did not want to go to jail and I'm afraid that's where she's gonna be when the verdict was read out how did you feel there's been an exhaustive process the case has been assessed by a magistrate by a jury of 12 which was unanimous in convicting by the Court of Criminal Appeal and the High Court has seen nothing to be concerned about in the way in which the convictions have been recorded [Music] in 2003 I was actually studying Lindy Chamberlain's case phobics case was being reported in the Australian media so I was thinking very much about the murder trials of mothers when I reviewed the case I started from the position that the evidence had been strong but I now believe much of the evidence that had been introduced at trial was unreliable I think that the most striking evidence that the jury heard was from medical witnesses each of whom was asked by the prosecution whether the medical literature documented three or more sudden unexplained deaths in a family being natural deaths every medical witness and some note of that question I think the jury would have found that that really compelled a conclusion that the children were killed in fact the medical literature documented cases of natural unexplained deaths in families three or more such deaths and since the time of the child more cases have been documented [Music] em'ly Cunliffe was the first expert and an academic to seriously question the convictions against kathleen phobic in 2013 we came onto the scene and started our legal investigation into the case I had started the process of writing to experts and the response was extraordinary they have written reports for us and have not been paid a cent professor Hill examined their statistics around infant mortality in families it's important to note that while multiple cot deaths may be a rare event so also will be multiple homicide when two or three cot deaths or sudden infant deaths have occurred the statistics show that there is no more reason to suppose that these are murder and cop deaths dr. Sharma libet's wrote a report about examining the Diaries and the significance of the the diary entries Jamila Betts is a clinical psychologist in Sydney her conclusion is that Kathleen phobic had a very rigid and exacting highly idealized conception of what good motherhood looked like and that she was constantly failing to meet her own expectations of her mothering a guilt of how responsible I feel for them all haunts me like many I was shocked by what I read in the Diaries and I did feel that there was good reason to be concerned about where the Kathleen phobic had killed her children what sort of mother have I been a terrible one that's what it boils down to I read the diaries now as Kathleen fall be blaming herself for getting frustrated and feeling as if if she had only been a better mother perhaps the children would not have died but that's very different from admitting that she killed the children when we submitted the petition in 2015 by far the most compelling fresh evidence we had was Professor Gordon as report is it fair to say that that's probably the most reports that you had to produce is certainly the longest report but he wrote a report examining the forensic evidence that had been presented at the trial yeah I have put quite a bit of effort into yeah professor Stephen corner is the former director of the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine he has a worldwide reputation as a forensic pathologist I think everybody in my position has this rule that you don't talk about the content reports until all legal proceedings finish professor Gordon's report may be used in subsequent legal proceedings and hence he felt it would not be appropriate and proper for him to personally give evidence in relation to this matter at this time in respect of Caleb professor Gordon er reaches the conclusion that his death was properly categorized as a SIDS death in respect of Patrick professor corner concludes that his death though unexpected in a narrow sense could be explained by the Epilepsy disorder that he experienced in the last several months of his life in respect of Sarah professor corner concludes that her death is properly ascribed to SIDS and in respect of Laura professor corner says that he would have given the cause of death as myocarditis or inflammation of the heart muscles [Music] I've been asked by ABC to provide an opinion on the report prepared by Professor Steven corner from Melbourne fundamentally I'm in agreement with Professor coordinate in that all four of these child deaths could be explained by natural causes we have here the sections of Laura's heart this is a times 200 magnification image and this is the inflammation of the heart muscle that makes this disease myocarditis and if you look at lower power you can see this disease is actually present quite extensively across this heart muscle it's not the most florid example I've ever seen but it's certainly most definitely there and as I say it's present on each and every section I've looked at what's the significance of seeing information on every slide well I think it comes down to judgment as to whether or not this disease could be ascribed as the cause of death and I think the more since the disease is the more likely it is this will explain that I think this is a imminently fatal case of marker deities of course we can't say for sure that this would have been the cause of death Lords case all I can say is I think this provides a very good explanation for her untimely death I think we have to concede it's a possibility that these children were smothered that the deaths were natural but there's no positive evidence to indicate that would have been the case if one were to attempt to smother a healthy robust normal 18 month-old child you would expect I think reasonably that this infant would put up a struggle this struggling would be expected to I think give rise to some injuries in lowest case there weren't any such signs whatsoever and of course I'm not privy to all the other evidence that was heard by the court during the trial but on the basis of the medical evidence alone I think this case certainly needs to be re-examined quite carefully the scientists look at this from a scientific point of view they are looking for physical evidence they find physical evidence of myocarditis they don't find physical evidence of smothering that doesn't mean that smothering didn't happen and it doesn't necessarily mean I would suggest that the myocarditis alone was the cause of death essentially the logic of the prosecution case falls apart once there is a diagnosable cause of death in respect of one of the children take Laura's death out of the sequence of deaths wouldn't necessarily mean that all of the convictions should be set aside it may mean that the conviction in relation to Laura should be set aside but it doesn't necessarily follow that the other three should be you can't just simply say well we got one role but the others can still stand it doesn't work that way in the years that have followed much has been made about the medical evidence but sitting through the trial the medical evidence wasn't the most compelling part of the case it was Craig's evidence the diaries and the way it all built up to this compelling picture I feel that the expert reports that have been gathered by the team working on the review application are very strong fresh evidence that these convictions are unreliable the decision we thought was to present a petition directly to the governor there is no logical reason for not having an inquiry we submitted the petition to the governor in 2015 there's going to be a report at some point essentially what we're asking is somebody needs to have a look at this case again there is a requirement now the justice be done an inquiry be held then what's exceptional is the delay from the time of the submission of the review and we still haven't heard from relevant people in government about whether or not there is going to be an inquiry the fact that the petition was filed three years ago is concerning I think this is an inordinate delay in dealing with the matter but having looked at that material I think that another jury even taking into account the material that has now been produced could and would still be satisfied beyond reason all doubt of her guilt he's got you mummys good yeah is she he'd been Kitty for children just did not die by themselves they died by the hand of their mother and she was supposed to be there to protect them and love them and look after them and she didn't if the conviction is quashed and she is released I will take it as a huge miscarriage of justice because I'm of the opinion that yes she did it if Kathleen phobic is innocent she has lost four children the idea of losing a child is horrifying for any parent the idea of losing four is unimaginable the idea of losing four children and then being wrongly accused of having killed those children is simply unbearable we've been waiting it seems like an endless age for this petition [Music] [Music] you you

Channel: ABC News In-depth

Views: 1,618,426

Keywords: Australia, Kathleen Folbigg, serial killers, Australian true crime, female serial killer, true crime, SIDS, Motherhood, trials and courts, epilepsy, Nicholas Cowdery, Cessnock Correctional Centre, DPP, Tracy Chapman, diary entries, prison, female inmates, female prisoners, convictions

Id: fAcEQpGiV5w

Length: 35min 19sec (2119 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 31 2018