Mothers accused of killing their four babies | 60 Minutes Australia

is there a more hated woman in Australia than Kathleen phobic over 10 years one by one she killed her four babies her crimes are so inconceivable it's still hard to fathom how and why she did it that is until you consider this may be Kathleen Fahlberg was wrongly accused she's always maintained her innocence and tomorrow a judicial inquiry reviewing her conviction begins it might lead to her freedom after 15 years in prison hoping that's true is Carol mouthy more than anyone she knows what Kathleen's endured because incredibly she too was accused of murdering four of her babies the two cases are remarkably similar right down to the expert witnesses called upon to determine the truth yet while Kathleen was convicted as Australia's worst female serial killer the prosecution against carol was thrown out Carol Massey stands accused but never convicted of killing her four babies while this mother believes she deserves overwhelming sympathy for her loss instead she's dogged by suspicions that she killed them all four murders in five years this is the first time Carol's spoken publicly about the sudden deaths of her children sitting here opposite you today I am looking at somebody who has suffered unimaginable grief and loss or I'm sitting opposite a deeply disturbed person who is capable of committing the most monstrous things committing murder four times over Who am I sitting opposite someone dealing with unimaginable amount of grief I'll do anything for my babies back at the heart of this tragedy is the question of what to believe one medical expert says it's homicide there's no question in my mind so you're saying that Carroll Matthew got away with murder yeah I think so another expert says there's no proof of foul play I think it would be too simple to suggest that just because there's been a series of deaths that we can use that evidence and that evidence alone to say that someone is guilty of serial murder [Music] four deaths in one family was enough to convict New South Wales woman kathleen phobic yet nowhere near enough to convict carol mathy strikingly similar cases even the same experts but one woman walks free the other is sent to jail now carol has given up her anonymity joining forces with the phobic supporters to help free kathleen a woman she fears was falsely accused and wrongly convicted it's concerning that in one place the judgment can be made that keeps someone in prison technically for 30 years and then after that in Carol's case and didn't even make it to trial in the end because the judge didn't self said no we're not accepting the experts findings Jacob and Shania on Chloe and Joshua it's a terrible roll call of death from 1998 to 2003 Carol had and lost four babies such a he was always happy his smile giving no hint of what was to come Jacob was the first to die at 7 months how did he go um we just found him one morning yeah he wasn't breathing two years later nine week old Chloe was found lifeless in her cot forensic pathologist said both she and Jacob suffered sudden infant death syndrome known as SIDS two years on Joshua at three months stopped breathing at the time his death was thought to be caused by a blood infection we were actually shopping at the time and came back out to the car and picked him up from the pram and he wasn't breathing less than a year later Shanaya was found dead in her bed she was nearly three and a half karemera exactly what I was thinking but I think the main thing was it can't be happening again too old for seeds pathologists were unable to say what caused Shanna is death for tiny siblings lost in five years was shocking and remains extraordinarily rare looking at the photos of your children here it's like an album of grief this - my baby's still even though they're gone they're always still gonna be my babies no matter what happens and you just you can't forget anything the children's section of any cemetery is it saddest part it's heartbreaking to think of mourning one dead child inconceivable to lose for but over five years Carole buried two sons and two daughters she says she welcomed the autopsies of her children wanting answers to why their lives ended so prematurely but it was the unexplained death of Shania that finally raised questions for police and launched a murder investigation if you have an object like a pillow or cushion or something like that then you may see no signs at all leading forensic pathologist dr. David ransom is deputy director of the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine based at Melvin's morgue it was here that he conducted the autopsy on three and a half year old Shania what did you determine her cause of death - this man ascertained I could not find a cause of death did that raise suspicion of itself he doesn't raise suspicion it just added to the overall issue of why had her children died and we were looking for concrete evidence to let us know that there was something other than a natural process in order to give the investigators something to actually start investigating and we simply were not able to find despite no evidence of foul play in any of the four children the police were still convinced they'd been murdered by their mother Carol to prove their case they sought the opinion as other interstate and international experts including American pathologist dr. Janice Pavan as far as I'm concerned there aren't any conditions that we know that could cause for children to die without any evidence her opinion of Carol methi was damning it clearly was in my opinion consistent with silicon or smothering would you accept that there is no evidence of that I don't disagree that there is no evidence of smothering because it's well recognized that you can smother an infant without leaving a trace [Music] in trying to determine the innocence or guilt of a parent accused of murdering their baby the greatest challenge for investigators is the lack of concrete physical evidence of what really caused that baby's death whether the baby has died of natural causes or has been deliberately smothered the evidence is the same usually there is none no markings nothing to distinguish between SIDS and homicide and while there is no forensic proof there will always be lingering doubt I think the thing you've faced with in infants is that they often do not show at autopsy significant degrees of the natural cause of death that might have been present nor do their tiny bodies bear the marks of murder if they've been smothered I don't know how you would ever hold a mother accountable for killing all of her babies by suffocation if you required evidence that you know would never be there so it's the it's in essence the perfect crime have you committed the perfect crime and I don't know why anyone would want to murder their children especially for did you try to suffocate Jacob No did you kill Chloe no did you smother Joshua in the car park no in the back of your car again Carole did you do anything to hurt shinai but armed with the opinion of three medical experts police arrested Carol in 2005 and charged her with the murder of all her for dead babies I could arrest it just came out of the blue what was that moment like scary but I mean what is the mind said if you haven't done anything do you think that this is going to go on for some time what do you think that this is going to be cleared up pretty quickly look okay well they'll question me and then I'll be home that night but that night always in Joe Carroll was held in remand for two months the charges against her came at the same time New South Wales mother Kathleen phobic lost her appeal she too had been charged with killing her four babies and like Carol it was the damning opinion of dr. Janice operon that was critical to the police case against her do I think Kathleen for big or Carol Massey killed her their children yes I don't have any question in the case of Kathleen phobic a jury agreed and she was sent away for 30 years the parallels with Carol's case was striking which had her terrified what was your greatest fear not being let out you've been in that situation for the rest of my life potentially it's like why am I here of done nothing wrong and we just had to prove I was innocent how do you do that yeah not having anything to hide coming up people would call me kitty killer damning evidence please say they could hear you smothering your child Payne's Carroll as a killer what was the state of your marriage were you trying to get his attention but is the investigation all screwed up of all of the cases that one would fit the criteria of a staged crime in what way [Music] that's next on 60 minutes so it's jalawla a sad or happy place for you a bit of both both happy and sad because this is where I had my babies and where they did spend the time their time here was too short within five years Carol mathy lost 4 babies that number alone for children from the one family was enough to make her guilty of murder in the eyes of many what was the reaction from the community after the deaths of your children people would call me kitty killer and yeah just names like that I heard a lot which made me not want to go out and just a sheltered myself from everyone just stayed at home Carol wasn't just guilty in the court of public opinion but in pediatric circles so many unexplained infant deaths confirmed a common belief the saying was once its death is a tragedy too is suspicious and a third is murder until proved otherwise at Carol's committal hearing the prosecution relied on the evidence of three key experts including American forensic pathologist dr. Janice Hoeven she said the fourth death in Carol's family cast serious suspicion over the deaths of the other three even though none of those deaths had raised red flags to the pathologists who conducted the original autopsies including dr. David ransom simply they found no sign of murder the question here is do you give the benefit of the doubt to an imaginary disease or do you look at the case that there is a condition that no one's ever seen except in these really suspicious cases where no one's ever seen a sign or a symptom of illness and only the moms are present when they die if that isn't enough combined with all the rest of the information that was available in the investigation then so be it absence of any evidence does not give you the right to go down another pathway for which you have no evidence even if it happens four times in the one family even if it happens four times in one family simply because you don't know what you don't know the case against Carol didn't only rely on medical evidence prosecutors alleged Carol's children were eventually killed as part of an escalating campaign of attention-seeking behavior to save her rocky marriage to Steven the police said a lot of things that weren't true like what that's I done these to get my husband's attention what was the state of your marriage um was all right it wasn't exactly the perfect marriage but who sees these days were you trying to get his attention and get his affection no were you trying to keep him in the marriage no were you trying to seek attention for any other reason No police say Carol's first attempt at winning back her husband came in 1998 four months before the first death in the family a mysterious fire started in one of the children's bedrooms as the only adult in the house at the time Carol got herself and her kids out safely did you start that fire no no I didn't and I've no reason tougher to fire why would I want to burn down my house I don't know unless you were trying to hurt someone or unless again you're trying to seek attention what other explanation could there be for how it was lit or who lit it I have no idea all I know is that your children and I made it out but aspects of the children's deaths continue to baffle carol had already lost two babies when Joshua stopped breathing they were out shopping Joshua was sleeping in his pram and despite being provided with a sleep apnea monitor he wasn't connected to it and it wasn't until we got back to the car and I put your ire in the car and went to leave Joshua out he was all limp and blue around the mouth so yelled out as Carole waited for an ambulance she says she started CPR on her lifeless son in the back of her car neither she nor the paramedics could save him can I ask why was Joshua not connected to his monitor at that point it used to go off a lot at random times it'll just start beeping and so I never didn't think I'd ever need to use it in the pram just going to do grocery shopping how do you feel about that decision now I regret not using it but then think because of how it used to go off all the time would it have gone off at the right time it's hard to say so you believe that Carole methi's smothered Joshua in the supermarket carpark of all of the cases that one would fit the criteria of a staged crime in what way um did it set up in order to mislead the death of Shanaya remains just as confounding the day before she died Shanaya fell from a coffee table Carole called for the ambulance telling the operator her daughter had stopped breathing and was unconscious but the operator says she thought she could hear whimpering in the background the suggestion is those sounds were coming from Shanaya police say listening to that first call you made to the ambulance service when shinai fell off the table that they could hear child in the background they're telling of it is that you they could hear you smothering your child that wasn't true what could they hear if that's not what they heard I don't know I don't know I do you remember the TV was on I was crying you weren't in the process of smothering your child when you rang no when the ambulance arrived Shania had regained consciousness and seemed healthy the ambos advised Carol to take the three-and-a-half-year-old to the doctor for a checkup but the very next morning she was found dead by her mother again Carol did you do anything to hurt Shania did you smother her with a pillow did you smother her in any other way for dr. ranson no matter how bad the circumstantial case against Carol appeared he could not find evidence she or anyone murdered the babies if you start with nothing if you start with an autopsy finding which is I do not have a medical answer for what has gone on then falling back on information which may be unreliable maybe something somebody else said somebody else's inference somebody else's interpretation of the circumstances can be an incredibly dangerous thing to do and so agreed Victoria's Supreme Court in 2007 the murder trial was over before it began the judge throughout much of the medical evidence of the star witnesses ruling their conclusions of foul play were not supported by facts the case against Carol Murphy was dropped and she walked free to be accused of such a crime did you feel at that moment that you'd been let off on a technicality or did you believe that you were believed that justice had been done yeah I was just glad I had a good legal team and a judge that seen that most of the police case was based on assumptions and that medical experts can be wrong and overall and I'm proof of that coming up one mother walks free the others still in jail so today you still believe that caffeine phobic is a serial killer but can Carole help save Kathleen if I can help in any way I'm happy to help this one here that's next on 60 minutes on that last day when you're told you don't have to come back here anymore this will not go to trial were you thinking what were you feeling a sense of relief that we didn't have to come back anymore you must be incredibly relieved 24th of October 2007 and Carol mathy walks free the charges of murdering her four babies sensationally dropped it was always still overwhelming and I guess I was kind of I was glad it was over but still I don't know it haven't sunk in yet the judge found there was no evidence carol was a serial murderer but for many the suspicion against her remained people interpreted that smile of yours as someone who thought they'd got away with it that they've tricked everybody I guess it was just relief that I didn't have to come back to court every day and it was over and we can go home and grieve and try to get on with our lives the case against Carol Nathan Victoria fell apart when the judge refused to allow the evidence of the key medical prosecution witnesses he found their assumptions of smothering were not based on fact but it was a very different story in New South Wales the testimony of the very same experts including dr. Janice OTT joven was heavily relied on to help convict Kathleen phobic sentenced in 2003 to 30 years jail for killing her four babies a conviction close friend Tracy Chapman still can't accept I believe they've made a very big mistake but I also know equally there's forces that would like to keep her behind bars because nobody wants to admit anyone make the wrong decision fifteen years ago it was expert findings that helped put Kathleen behind bars tomorrow after intense public and legal pressure those findings will be put under the microscope as a fresh inquiry into Kathleen's conviction begins I know it's not going to be easy but knowing that we've just done the impossible isn't in itself amazing is she nervous it's just scary ya know they're scared definitely she knows that the odds are stacked against her I guess it's it almost a David and Goliath battle really the Kathleen phobic and Carol masse cases are eerily and tragically similar like Carol Kathleen lost four babies two boys and two girls and like Carol mathy it wasn't until the death of Kathleen's fourth child Laura that suspicion was raised by pathologist dr. Alan Kaler that all the children had been deliberately smothered by their mother when Laura died she was aged about 18 to 20 months then that's just far too old for that death to be called sudden infant death syndrome and so began a two years serial murder investigation did you kill him did you kill more with no physical evidence her children had been smothered it was Kathleen's disturbing diaries that were considered The Smoking Gun of the case by police and the prosecution but Sara all I wanted was her to shut up and one day she did the diaries reveal a tortured mind and I'd be very surprised if there are not millions of mothers who think like that clinical psychologist dr. shamila beds examined Kathleen fall begs entries in 2013 she told me in her opinion not even Kathleen's darkest writings were enough to convict her she's a fairly good natured baby thank goodness it has saved it from the fate of his siblings I think she was warned so when she writes about her moods making her think and do terrible things you don't think that's an admission she never said anywhere in the diary of having any murderous rage she never felt hate for those kids unless there's an explicit confession that I have smothered the children with a pillow it isn't a confession yes I would have an angry thought but it was never to harm her from a pathologist standpoint based on my experience in my in-depth work with children who have been hurt and killed this case is a serial homicide so today you still believe that Kathleen phobic is a serial killer yes I do Kathleen should never have been charged and brought to trial originally I think it's a gross injustice that needs to be rectified why should she have never been charged there's no evidence social justice lawyer Michael naught has extensively researched the full big case written and academic report on how a controversial and now discredited theory permeated the evidence cases based on meadows caught death Theory one cot death is a tragedy two suspicious three murder and that has been shown to be totally erroneous and without any foundation it's unscientific and the case is based on that the so called cot death Theory was a saying made famous by this man British professor Roy meadow it was thanks to his theory that a number of mothers were sent to jail in the UK in the years leading up to Kathleen's trial it does seem absolutely extraordinary that parents could be so brutal or so cruel to their own children but a fundamental statistical error in Meadows law eventually saw the theory discredited and multiple murder convictions overturned Sally's nightmare is over because the Court of Appeal decided she'd been wrongly convicted of killing her two boys in the UK alone four grieving mothers falsely accused and wrongly convicted walked free finally today justice has been and my innocence has been proven but back in Australia the same flawed argument was being used against Kathleen for big dr. op haven relied on Roy Meadows law at a pre-trial hearing claiming the chance of four unexplained infant deaths from natural causes in the one family was one in a trillion how do you respond to criticism that you poisoned the waters of the trial against Kathleen phobic I don't know how I could do that that criticism refers to the fact that you've declared that there was a less than a 1 in 1 trillion chance that 4 deaths in one family could be attributed to SIDS that was incorrect I was citing previous literature Roy meadow I would never say that now but I wouldn't change my diagnosis no I would just say that it's it would be impossibly rare but I wouldn't put a number on it the consequences of using these theories is we're putting innocent people in jail and that in our society is abhorrent how big is the risk that Kathleen phobic is one of those innocent people who is in jail I think there's a high risk III think there's a high risk that she's totally innocent coming out if young child is smothered there is very rarely evidence of that you would usually see nothing does the expert evidence stack up so until there is proof that that child is murdered it's still speculative isn't what Kathleen's jury didn't hear at the time of the phobic trial there had been at least eight such cases around the world and her words from prison should never have happened maybe together our voices may help change that birds next on 60 minutes to wonder every day what happened pretty much not a day goes by that you don't wonder what happened two women accused of the same heinous crimes one is free the other behind bars plagued by guilt or otherwise both are imprisoned by mother's grief and a community's enduring suspicion to be accused of murdering those children to be seen in that light what does that like for you it's very upsetting and you just constantly question yourself and why couldn't have done more to try to find out to try to stop it if they'd found anything could they've prevented it it's extraordinary the parallel circumstances and yet the drastically different results Carroll Massey's court case was dropped for lack of evidence but incredibly similar evidence saw kathleen phobic found guilty of three counts of murder and one as manslaughter lawyer michael not believes just as it was for carol there is so much reasonable doubt in the fold big case she should never have been convicted from all indications she was a good mother and the problem you get with these type of cases is there's no evidence there's no forensic evidence there's no DNA evidence there's no videotape evidence there's a denial of the charges and all you have eventually is speculation by medical practitioners and consequently the police and we know that speculation is just not good enough [Music] kathleen phobic does she deserve the benefit of the doubt yeah everybody does definitely as we learn with my case the medical experts can get it wrong and do get it wrong do you believe in the Carroll Murphy case that there was sufficient doubt oh no oh I don't think there was doubt at all but the judge in the mathy case so doubted dr. Janice up havens testimony he wouldn't allow it to be heard he said the conclusions of three of the Crown's forensic pathologists were not based on fact do you find it frustrating that your conclusions are still speculative because of the lack of proof well it depends on what you mean by proof well as you said yourself there if young child is smothered there is very rarely evidence of that so until there is proof that that child is murdered it's still speculative isn't it I agree with you if all you have was the physical body of a suffocated baby you would usually see nothing even when it's a confessed suffocation so either you get a confession or you can sequentially murder your babies and not have any justice for those little lives oh you didn't suffocate them well that I that's that's the whole question here kathleen phobic sentenced to 30 years in jail is a stark reminder to carol of where she could be today how close do you feel you got to going to jail of being found guilty when you consider that those experts who were ready to testify against you still believe today that you're guilty like the judge said in his report they based everything on assumptions and not facts and that just proves that they can't just make up things and their theory of losing in more than three children is murder is wrong the inquiry reviewing the kathleen Fahlberg conviction which begins tomorrow will be focusing on medical evidence specifically the occurrence of three or more deaths in one family due to natural causes at the time of the phobic trial there had been at least eight such cases around the world that the jury was told by medical experts that they've never heard of such a tragedy [Music] for phobics close friend Tracy Chapman that omission was a terrible injustice I think it's important to understand this does happen the notion of four babies dying in your care in an unexplained and unexpected way is too big almost to comprehend it's too big to accept what it is horrific it's unacceptable like you say and but the sad thing for me is people shoot first ask questions later and there is reasons for this medically that we just don't know enough about yet Tracy believes in Carol mathy Australia has its own unique chance to understand the complex and unknown medical forces at play in cases of multiple infant deaths but more personally Carol offers Kathleen something no one else can a deep understanding of her loss what she said nobody knows what she's feeling the way Carol mathy does with the grief the pain for Kath it's more to say that somebody else has gone through this it's not it's not as unusual as it sounds and this lady knows all too well how much pain someone feels Phil is in for children if the special inquiry goes her way Kathleen may have a retrial or may even have her convictions overturned I can do is stand up publicly and support her and say I've got you hopefully I don't need to catch her if she falls has there ever been a crack in your belief in in Kathleen for burger cracking your support of her no no fault lines it's at this critical time for Kathleen Fahlberg the Carol mathy has come forward for the first time a mother who was also accused of killing her four babies unlike Kathleen the medical case against her collapsed she could very well be innocent and medical experts get it get things wrong police get things wrong these are the words Kathleen Fahlberg has wanted to hear for a long time but it's only now carol has emerged from the seclusion she chose in 2007 when the case against her was dropped on Kathleen's behalf Tracey meets Carol for the first time it happened she how do we getting the tape you just walked away and no surfaced again so we've never actually been able to trace here I'm just so grateful this is happening if I can help in any way Tracy comes with words of gratitude from Kathleen phobic I guess this is her way of touching base and saying she'd really like to connect with you because you're someone that's been with us you don't know that but you've been with us for a very long time so if this is her way of telling you that from within Jail Kathleen offers Carol her support you suffered feeling trapped imprisoned at times I'm sure of that and shows the determination to keep fighting to be persecuted as we were and I still AM this should never have happened maybe together our voices may help change that sincerely thank you so much Kathleen with a smiling face [Music] when you lose someone there's not just one thing you miss most it's just everything you think that how they would be now and what they would be doing and yeah you wonder what that look like [Music] while Carol mathy does have her freedom what she'll never have are her children it's an emptiness she feels every day a loss that will be with her the rest of her life when you go through this much pain you would hope for sympathy when you caring and understanding yeah but then you hope to just be left alone to just grieve and everyone deals with grief differently so we just will have iron ways but it never stops doesn't get any easier [Music] hello I'm Tara Brown thanks for watching to keep up with the latest from 60 minutes Australia make sure you subscribe to our Channel you can also download the 9 now app for full episodes and other exclusive 60 minutes content

Channel: 60 Minutes Australia

Views: 3,050,625

Rating: 4.4417839 out of 5

Keywords: 60 Minutes, 60 Minutes Australia, Liz Hayes, Charles Wooley, Tara Brown, Liam Bartlett, Allison Langdon, Ellen Fanning, Peter Overton, Ray Martin, Jana Wendt, Jeff McMullen, Jennifer Byrne, Mike Munro, Richard Carleton, Tracey Curro, Peter Harvey, Ross Coulthart, George Negus, Ian Leslie, Gerald Stone, Sarah Abo, four babies, Kathleen folbigg, Carol Matthey, australian crime, true crime, child murder, murder mystery, investigation

Id: 4z4YtquTJjM

Length: 42min 26sec (2546 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 18 2019