Katherine Hepburn Interview with Phil Donahue - 1991

please to say hello from the home of Katharine Hepburn in New York City on the occasion of the publication of her autobiography titled simply me were you raised an atheist did that come to you father was the son of a minister a church in Virginia and I think he was never cook mother were so absolutely and he religious so we never went to church and I found this terrifying at first in Fenwick and made them buy me a hat I don't went to church and sat and then I found that after a brief sort of six or eight weeks I thought they were right and you I'm not religious alena I think anyone has an opportunity to reach from whatever they want to reach for I think reaching for the unknown is odd I look man if you reach well you can do some good or doing something else it's much better than saying I'm gonna polish myself up for the next world well that's what I would wonder at 84 I think I might want to cover my bets I don't know no I know I don't care I think it's a nice long rest we had an atheist on once who said there are there's no heaven there's no hell there's no angels there's no God when you die you go to the ground and you're eaten by the worms and become part of the ecosphere of the planet on which holy cow people said well they're just this is a very religious nation I am impressed that I think people are scared to die they're scared that they're scared to die I've been very lucky because I was brought up with people who had not observed and who fought for a better life but miss Mayer in the world especially the ones didn't have a lot of money and they weren't afraid to die I'm not afraid to die but I certainly do not and all resent people who feel I must believe that I'm going somewhere I think that's fine I assume you don't want to try and sell you they don't try to sell me no because I don't I'm not it's a topic they just have no interest to me at all the afterlife well the afterlife or death you know things that I have no control over I don't worry about you don't want to linger either I'm sure like no I don't want to link I don't wanna linger I got some terrible ailments so that some poor soul and to take care of me and feed me and everything I try to jump out the window about something I transmit something I don't believe in prolonging useless existence deal no tubes no machines for you well I wouldn't say so unless then we will have tubes and machines for a while if there was a chance of your recovery there's a chance at recovery otherwise I think it's wasted other baby books John besides your own well with more and more of us getting older and older and the population of the seniors with the issue of death and how to die and what our rights may be and facilitating it is very very keen one and I assume you have you have empathy for those who wish to be assisted in their passing I don't even think anything about it I don't think it's any of my business if a person is religious I think that's fine if they're not religious I think that's fine I bring no judgment to those who would want help not at all I think that and what I try to help I don't try to I'm surrounded people who believe in their sin that and I tried not make fun of them I guess one shouldn't because one doesn't know we don't know anything don't wait so being 84 for you is not a preoccupation you it's a preoccupation for my foot for the foot what you damaged yes mm-hmm but you don't you don't sit around saying oh my my no no I wouldn't know how much heels I am is Liz Smith in an interview with you the Newsday columnist said she overheard you were you received the Lincoln Center awards and you were at Washington and Oh everybody was there including the presidents and ice there was a receiving line and human said a load of the president yes you and do you remember what you said well what did I say yes some terrible thing that he was fighting women's rights women's rights and abortion and I thought it was shocking and I think it is shocking it's sad deeply sad to me their situation was that too many of us anyway and why force a woman a certainly it's a woman's right to have a child if she wants to and did not have a child if she wants to it can't be you can't saddle her with a parent it's murder I mean it's ridiculous to me you said I hope you change your mind on abortion yes and he's and he said did he answered me I want I know that he did I don't think he said anything he gave him look did mrs. Bush hear you yes I think I think she smiled she did illy I wonder what her position is I don't see how any thinking woman could say that a woman should be forced to have a pain she doesn't afford I don't get it can you explain that to me I will make if if the pro-life people could choose a spokesperson it would not be me but they truly deeply passionately believe this is a life and it is more than that a helpless life well why don't they look at the people who are struggling who I'm hungry oh I'm poverty-stricken well have no possibility of getting anything out of life why don't they look at me and give him some money in support I mean that but certainly a thousand people mess fire with because of lack of education because of a lack of oh because of the necessity of supporting well the rest of the kids I mean it's idiotic to me Oh anybody couldn't think twice and not be sympathetic to the fact that there are too many covers your book there I have heard you say that you were spanked as a child oh yes and one of the things you learned how to do when you were being discipline cry that's right I found that irritated dad more than anything so the way to fight back was pretended you didn't matter yes yes yes there is no evidence in your book that on the terribly painful moments of your life for example you loved your brother your oldest brother as you loved Spencer and you were with them both or you you discovered their bodies yeah a searing emotional moment didn't cry you didn't know I died I wouldn't say I know I'd say I was ordinarily sentimental but in a serious situation I don't cry I do it's if I'm looking that sad oh wait I have tears roll down my cheeks and other people's problems but I don't cry about something I can do something about [Music] your book is very very candid and revealing on the night of Spencer's death you heard him awaken you heard the sound of the teacup hit the kitchen floor and then you heard the thump and you went in and there he was on the floor and you tell your readers if you have to go that's the way to go yes don't you think Oh suddenly well I know that he doesn't have to I mean I think any one death is strange to all of us and this you know that tomorrow or 2:30 you're gonna die you'll be nervous before this started yo you think how am I gonna do I hope okay yeah so I I did not hear Spencer get up I heard him just stop to walk down the hall because my bedroom to say that his bedroom was here and there was a long hallway to the kitchen and the kitchen was here and I heard him start down the hall that I thought well maybe like some conversation at something so I got up enough when I got to the door he dropped that cup of tea and dropped dead you had separate bedrooms hmm somehow this 27-year one of the great romances of our time certainly in a American popular culture you I was so adorable I think Spencer found life very difficult and I found him very fascinating so he couldn't sleep I don't want to sleep in a bed somebody can't sleep be tossed and turned and turned them to us always I didn't believe that they did it and I lay upon the floor of Israel one night and watched him and he could get to sleep even though he was Medicaid he took sleeping oh yes oh yes big yeah heavy ones yeah you watched him and I watched him and he twisted it you turned it took him an hour and a half to quiet down at all that's a terrible disease insomnia oh and you can't help anyone at least I don't think you can you try to do your best but I mean you can't they don't want you sitting in the wrong the portraits you paint mm-hmm of Spencer is not is not at all different from others that have other biographers have written he was fabulously funny man yes he was he was really funny man and a great storyteller and I think of great actor he was also a guilt ridden brooding unhappy Moody occasionally drinking Irish bear well yeah that's easy to say I mean he drank in the early part of its life why someone in drinks Lynne drinks too much it's a mystery isn't it but he was guilt ridden he was worried what made him you mean you you tell us this it was guilt so he no I think he was we felt that the miseries that he'd brought out and people were avoidable and if he hadn't existed the world would have been better off that's a heavy load Karen that's what he thought I think so I can't say that and he isn't here to tell us whether we're right or wrong he well the I mean I think he had Johnny was for one death Louie is his wife took care of him so he felt guilty about her he felt guilty about Johnny you speaking of Spencer that what lovely wild spirit full of laughter yet so sad yeah were you sad what was it what I don't know I can't answer those questions I don't forget anyone good was it John being deaf was it that you felt you should have remained married yeah well you were still married to Louise I think that this is what she wanted she just could not settle for the fact that her marriage had been a failure well I don't blame her there what else did she had she had terrible responsibilities and she worked among deaf children all alive you know and I think women I've my sympathies with the ladies because I think they're in a difficult spot you won that on the night of Spencer's death you called his wife yes that was not the first time you've had spoken to her I honestly don't know I think more or less the body is on the kitchen floor and you're on the phone calling his wife there's a movie here misshapen no there's no no well did they have because it worked the maid and her husband and they came up and we put Spencer in bed and you covered him with a quilt and then and you lit candles may I remind this well I wanted to make it look pretty and it was sad but I thought maybe it was lucky for him he'd had a very troubled life seemed unreasonable then I called her because he was her husband and she'd done the best she could do and you did you call his children as well you could know so she lived with so you did you talk to Susie when you talk to I'd know when Susie came and then Susie not became friends because I think Susie thought I'd done the best I could in the circumstances and you and Susie did become friends yeah after his death yeah now she his wife comes over the body is in the bed the candles are lit and did you greet her at the door yes yes and I said Spencer's in the air and she walked down the hall and went in and then she left Dana's longer she wanted to you offered breakfast yes eggs bacon but that's not strange is it we're not enemies in life no no I mean I'd offer new wigs well please I believe this this is not a criticism I just am very very compelled by a woman that you had never spoken to being notified by you of her husband's death she comes over you say Spencer is in the bedroom she goes into the body to grieve and you offer bacon and eggs it's now 6 a.m. you were going to remove your things from the apart from the house and you said to yourself why am I doing this I live with this man for 27 years yes and Louise was in the apartment in the house at the time so you came back in and no don't know whether it was after she left that I thought should I leave I don't think so and when did she say I thought you were a rumor that was on the telephone but that was a natural thing for the faith does that shock - it didn't shock me at all I mean what could she have thought and what could she say to me but you make the point in the book 27 years she thought this was a rule but I mean what do you say when you're married to a man and you've taken care of his children and then he dies and this goddamn woman who's been in her way all at lifetime calls her up says he's dead I I don't I think anything that Louise did was totally understand well and I think anything I did under the circumstances was understandable well I think most women would be mad as hell at you you were the other woman why didn't she just why was why didn't she confront you why didn't as as has happened in so many painful moments in fact I would I bet you do that I bet if you were married to a man who was seeing another woman sooner or later you know what you can't run I bet because if if the man wished to go away she didn't force him to go away he left her and took me on I don't think that's I think that's life yeah and you feel no guilt about this this this I about the relationship yes that his merits would have been finished anyway and that you had no nothing I felt his marriage would be yes from all indications was true then his marriage to earth was pretty welcome [Music] miss heparin we have no information in your book about the 27 years we we have this very personal look at the at moments snapshots important ones to be sure including his death if I may just say one more time you were the other woman the other woman's loneliest times we are told by many other women Christmas o Thanksgiving oh you know he must be with his family yes he can't be with you that's five Christmas Eve alone that doesn't affect me I think I have to be dumb to think that he should even think Christmas Eve he should be with his wife and daughter son that me these are sort of festivities of variety that one celebrates every year they'd always celebrated Christmas together so they always should just the way I wouldn't have hesitated to leave him and go back and celebrate Christmas with my family which I probably did we were very close so there was no there was never any need to marry Spence no you never talked about it no and it was a wonderful relationship yes it was you never fought no as I say I was so adorable life is a fascinating give the easy experience for me I mean I'm easily adjusted I have a very fortunate nature he found life extremely difficult and he had been faced with a terribly difficult situation at home with the boy and the fact that he'd been ran around there that one did you read Hume Cronyn memoir nope you're gonna give it to me no just a a moment oh he is like everyone awed by Spencer's talent yes it's persona that's right no never Spence was never over-the-top as an actor no they dr. Jekyll and mr. Hyde I don't know only time he gave a bad performance and he had to push that did he he pushed it he said he got off on the wrong track with it and he wanted to play it as himself as a man who when he was Jekyll he was his by himself and when it was mr. Hyde he was drunk and that would have been fascinating and I said just do dead bad you could do it again Hume Cronyn from his book he's sitting with Spence as he calls him in his dressing room Spence was feeling morose and made no effort to move to port to introduce us this is as you walk in the room perhaps you assumed we knew one another I introduced myself he shook hands and he said I hope I'm not in and you said I'm hope I'm not interrupting anything please sit down she was tall slim beautiful and very direct and her look was as firm as her handshake I was aware that she was a prai appraising traci and conscious of his mood she turned to him and said cheerfully how are you doing old man and he replied on my ass problems you asked you asked him but he was drinking and didn't bother to answer she continued I think I'll get myself a drink you get a drink you take out a cigarette and Hume likes the cigarette for you whereupon Spence says why don't you two find a bed somewhere and get it over with Jos irrationally so I stood there frozen until the match burned my fingers miss Hepburn just smiled you remember that no he said do you sit down for God's sake you keep bouncing I read what do you bring up an incident like that you're childish sir you're childish because it has someone who's had too many whiskey's is apt to say get out get out you know I don't take any of that seriously do your friends drink too much I accept your scolding and I don't mean to suggest that this is a reflection of Spencer's whole life it does give us a look however at a man who was episodically very very troubled and you do not protect Spence from this feature of his personality in your own book it calls to mind your tolerance your patience with him and shouldn't all men have this I mean what a wonderful what a wonderful thing to happen to have you walk in his life who never were judgmental he could be terribly impolite and rude and you saw it as a as the yes but I didn't want I was a totally independent person I had been married to an angel lovey my divorce then played her out of bed but never her felt that not only was the way I felt about Spencer now Spencer was a fascinating man I was not able to solve his problems but I was able to help him by seeing Mitch it didn't fall down the same as you know our break is goddamn heck or just be miserable so that was my pleasure I mean if you're I think it depends you have to say what do you expect of life I don't know several men all drank too much and they were all extremely interesting and you but you wouldn't be married to any of them I don't know but I didn't including Spencer no yes I would have married Spencer I don't approve of marriage unless you have children I really don't I think people pay him so badly with each other but it's a tough tough relationship and a deep friendship there's a tough relationship and I think it's thrilling there's just many relationships work out and I think usually it's because the beef or held together by the kids you you believe you could have been married to Spencer Tracy if he did insisted I wouldn't marry anybody after that I'm most marriages I said before to an angel if I couldn't get out with him but here's here's what I think and you'll straighten me out yes I think if you married him it wouldn't have lasted a year well whose fault would it have been I think what I think what made your relationship last 27 years was the fact that you didn't live in the same house for 27 years well we didn't live in the same house I agree with you there we didn't live in that same house because I don't like living in the house with anyone I mean I lived in this a little word thank God you know and I get up in the morning the house is empty yes burglars come right in I'm elope but there it is and I think that I just advise Spencer and I was helpful to it and he was enormously interesting to me it wasn't a one you know he was a fascinating great storyteller all the things that I can't do well he could do well he just couldn't live [Music] you you never got filthy rich did you well I guess a lot of money away no but I mean you were you were you are always will be you are cinema royalty but oh my you majors in the days when the numbers were quite different than they are yes but I love and I got the house I have what I need you bought this place in 1931 1932 just I've rented this place for $100 a month 60 60 I always paid the same rent and then in I think about 37 or something I had the money to buy it so I bought it twenty seven twenty seven thousand five hundred dollars in Hey in nineteen where are your Oscars I don't know no no I you also don't know where your naked pictures are no that's much more interest I'll say oh those pictures you were you were in a straw basket it was about this long about this high about that wide and they were a straw basket and I'm marriage lucky so maybe burn pictures I can't ask him and and you were how old when I married you know when you had your nacre we just care about the naked pictures what a high suppose I was 16 16 yeah what a bad no sixteen-years-old you got in the buff and reclined as a well my dear there's that chocolate oh yes didn't shock me I thought that was very attractive I'm sure you look I'm sure you were you know I mean if today if a father heard that his daughter posed naked at age 16 if she was nothing yet you hate pornography do I yes I heard you say all that heavy breathing in it yes maybe wonder how you go I don't let us continue peculiar means I'm not altogether it's odd I hope I'm not giving people a bad impression of life maybe I will you hate selling it no I love to sell it hmm but you did tell a an interviewer that it isn't other you wish you could be a painter you paint and here it is you either like it or you don't it you buy you do yeah now you've got to promote you got to sell yourself and and you have to you are did you like the painting you can sit back I did that one it's lovely those birds when you pay for it how much I obviously this is something of value not only because it's a nasty yes well not only because it's very good but guess who painted it yes I bet I could do very well on the open but here's the point here you are for Oscars magnificent career all this wonderful work this body of work you didn't have to go out and sell that you didn't have to go and talk to every every self-styled interviewer to promote a picture no I don't I haven't done that it was wonderful I mean those were the wonderful days you did the picture and it either sold or it didn't that's right now 1991 you write a book for that publisher you got a tap dance for those people and I have a sense that this isn't altogether a positive experience I think it's for other fun you never know what they're gonna ask you never know what you're gonna say either we're exposed [Music] let he doted on you Letty opened the door Letty said whatever Catherine yes and yo and you live with him for two weeks oh well you were married for five years but it really you know you weren't together hardly at all no and you do say very nice things about him in the boom that should be saying yes right now with Spencer you dote on him it was totally the opposite you were - Spencer what ludie was to you that's right no good well you know I think however wonderful ludie was people who are always doing things for you so sooner or later become boring no if you if you you think I born Spencer obviously not that's I don't think so I don't think I was I hope not no I think people do things for you and they don't expect to be repaved then I think it's very nice don't you I think it's wonderful yeah and that's what you say love is I think love is that but it's fun to take care of someone that you think it's not any usual and capable who you gonna help your something it's amazing to me 27 years with Spence and no press Oh today a celebrity of your stature can't sneeze in public without the press that that is the press let us alone I think they knew that Spencer was in a very difficult position and he and I never were photographed in public we never went in public we'd never now a met have been France once or twice and in London we never stayed in this same hotel we were very you know rough up 27 years sneaking around not sneaking around well not staying in the and maybe maybe that's why we've had such a good job he stayed with the witty stated that wonderful Oh telling London and I stayed around the corner and another one very you stayed in the lesser of I say don't tell the time always they did and he stayed in fancy what I'd traveled a lot so and I know I'm careful bunny so all in all we have to say you have no regrets no I'm happy and when you look you've seen yourself age on film as a daily television personality would see himself age what do you think but you look at yourself you don't I don't you don't look at the old I never have to know but you do see the films you see yourself in I am a woman of the year both legs that body though that cheekbone yes I used to go to all the rushes and thick and victims were ill choose and everything and then I began to see other unfortunate things that were happening and I thought your judgement it's no good here don't look at it so you stop there trying absolutely stop looking at myself Rosabelle what I rose above it so you're not a vulnerable ego then you're not um II go enough but but you can you can lash back to be sure you're nobody's Patsy no oh but you don't cave in well I've thought of things get in here what you know but I thought how do we know how it's gonna end what are we going to talk about next [Music] Graham sent $3 check or money order to Donahue transcripts 1535 Graham street denver colorado 802 o3r call 303 831 nine thousand so at from the moment you thought you were going to cave in till now have we have I recovered somewhat or was a reasonably Pleasant I don't know because I never knew you before so I don't know what this is exactly I'm rather fascinated I've talked about things that we shouldn't have talked about so if we could choose a word for this interview I think you would choose odd odd well I'd say you have a lot of beautiful hair so it's better well I'll take odd ok it could be worse I thank you for letting us invade your privacy here yes I hope you don't regret it and I hope I don't regret it but it's very interesting to meet you well let's take a breath a couple of days and then maybe we'll look at what we said and decide how we feel ok I do thank you you are the author of me stories of my life hey from the book do you want to know the truth you didn't I didn't it was a gift from the publisher Oh saying please talk about it yes so that means no autographs no autograph listen trade me 25 bucks ok that's a deal okay I'll sign it and you got a pen I think it's curious that you're doing this for me before the transaction and what's your name I think you don't know do you you don't but I'll bet you don't know hey what did Spencer do when when he was on the ship and and general Montgomery said who are you Oh wonderful all right he didn't tell him oh no he did not tell him ever ever and I'm too proud to tell you and so we're gonna sit here and you're not gonna be able to say you're not gonna be able to sign this I'm just gonna sign bye do you have any idea what this does to my ego I think you're fascinating i nameless fascinating yes yes 24 years on the air over 5,000 hours and you don't know who the hell I am no Do You Know Who I am have you read this book I certainly have well that's because you know it you were paid to read it this is this is very painful for me but I'm gonna tell you who I am okay I'm Phil Donahue no you're not I think we should just continue you don't watch television I don't watch anything no I don't I've seen you once or twice that's all I think you're goddamn good so when they said they could get you as head fine but deal watch television I'm a goddamn good anonymous person but don't do you watch television oh yes yes I do i I don't get you don't I watch to stay current i watch I can't claim to watch all the you know all the I don't think I've stayed current thi oh oh how do you spell it do em eh eh oh uh huh hey Chewie I shall treasure this always if you find yourself getting over egotistical you could use this I remember famously and and success and failure treat those two Impostors just the same here it is an autograph for one of her favorite television personality we are pleased to bid you farewell from the home of Katharine Hepburn in New York City my thinking and my pleasure my pleasure that's it we didn't run out of tape I hope all right [Music] service is provided and promotional fees paid by the following

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Length: 43min 52sec (2632 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 02 2020