Journey Home - 2018-04-16 - Keith Albert Little

[Music] good evening and welcome to the journey home I'm Marcus Grodi your host for this program our guest tonight is Keith little and as I see the moniker below his name former non-denominational evangelical I have a feeling we got a lot in common because that's where I spent a lot of my time before the grace opened my heart to the church Keith blogs at a website called the cordial Catholic comm so some of you explore blogs and we have run across Keith's blog but Keith it's great but have you join us here on the journey great to be here from that great country up north right yes indeed do you still have snow up there a little bit yeah because I always assumed that way up there you're fighting snow except for one month a year but we're pretty far south where we are but yeah there's still snow most of Canada has snow all right well it's good to have you here here so let me step out of the way and fight you didn't take us on the journey sure sure so I was raised just north of Toronto in the suburbs had a fantastic upbringing great childhood I often say that we were raised in a home that was kind of Christian without Christ's which is kind of funny but it was a very morally Christian very much about serving others and about truthfulness and kindness and it was a fantastic kind of moral base for you know becoming Christian eventually and becoming Catholic is that indicative of what has kind of happened in Canada because it I mean I don't know that my answers has come from there but from the French side but it seems that there's been a lot of uniting of churches in Canada over the years so you end up kind of one big melting yeah Christianity it's funny you say that because we did attend church occasionally and I was at a United Church which was an amalgamation of other churches down through history and we were there you know kind of a few times but I don't think I even really knew who Jesus was or very much about what was going on my two memories of going to church when we went was we had communion once in a while and it was real wine and row of bread and you had to walk up and tear the red off yourself to a piece of the loaf really and I remember as a kid just being terrified to walk up there I thought is my piece if it's too big what am I gonna do with it so having to navigate that and the other thing I remember from going to church and I feel bad telling the stories my parents now are very committed to their church and loved their church but at the time my mom would pack my sister and I into the car and go and I remembered I would stay home and watch Three Stooges on the TV Sunday morning and I always thought well why can't I stay home too and watch this show you know why do I have to go off and dad gets to do this and and your dad wanted to stay home in Canada to absorb good American culture right but it's interesting you say what you said that when you the amalgamation of the churches and limiting yourself to the least common denominators sure yeah and it wasn't very watered down kind of experience but but still was raised very morally very morally Christian right but just didn't know who Christ was or God fit in there and it was in high school somewhere between my first and second year of high school and I remember you know I wasn't we were kind of a nerdy group of music kids band kids and whatever and we had a little get-together campfire at the beginning of the summer that year and I remember very clearly in my mind I can still picture we were sitting on the campfire and there's one guy there he was a bit older than us if it seemed very experienced and wise you know and long hair and just very interestingly and and we're kind of around the campfire and he says you guys know there's there's more to to life than just ourselves and we're all connected and I remember thinking like wow what is he what does he mean he seems so wise because I really I hadn't thought of these those kind of thoughts before right I thought you know I heard a bit about God and Jesus and you know and rowdy but to think you know what that's really interesting and as a teenager I thought I want to for this more so you know I found out that he was he was a Wiccan whatever that meant to him and so I remember going home that night after the after the campfire for the party and this was pre-google so I was I tried desperately for a few days after to search of what does it mean to be a Wiccan like what is its guile about what does he believe and of course there's if you search back then you couldn't find anything it was all these different things that nothing connected or made sense or maybe after an hour something might come up and there's all kinds of different belief systems I didn't know what he subscribed to so I thought you know what I don't really know what this is but but him asking those questions kind of set me to thinking about well you know what I know he's right I have a feeling that there is something more than just me you know so I want to know what what's what and I I think I had a little New Testament copy of the Bible that you got in school a time when they came in and gave you Bibles I tried looking at that and thought well maybe maybe God is in this summer maybe this god of Christianity is something to look into and I didn't get very far understanding with the Scriptures I didn't I wasn't didn't have a foundation to go with of any kind so but I had this sense just from that the comment he made and thinking about that and that there was something I wanted to explore and I I was curious to know who God was and I felt drawn towards that right and you know what's always fascinated me with with how God brought me to to faith is I felt a sense of unworthiness as I approached this thing that I thought was God you know I I kind of felt like you know if there's a god I'm probably not worthy to to know him and I don't know where that came from and even if something on my journey as I think back you know even even now many years later I'm still unpacking what that means because I had this sense of I knew my my right before God without into knowing who he was I felt this this sense so what it makes me think of is a number of places in the Old Testament Psalms and proverbs that you find the phrase that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom yes yes yes like reading your heart the seed of this yeah I'm before an awesome yeah you know what I think this seed was planted you know in my upbringing a sense of right and wrong and and and it it was just passing to think but even now so I remember what I did was I I prayed a prayer that I now know a lot of you know people becoming Christian pray and I said no God if you're there send me a sign right it's almost like a it's almost a goofy prayer now but it's you know it's a very historic rich prayer that a lot of people pray and what about my business and it was kind of the middle of summer and I was you know this friend of mine and we were heading back from somewhere back to my house and we turned the corner to my street and here was this guy coming towards us who was a guy that we had we had bullied in elementary school and you know we weren't bullies we were pretty nerdy kids ourselves but we found somebody who was nerdier than us right and and we were we could be mean that kids can be mean and we were mean to him he was a neighbor of a friend of ours and we were mean to him and he was coming towards us on the street at night recognized him immediately-- hadn't seen him in years I knew who he was and he looked like he was not doing well I knew right away he was on drugs of some kind like he looked like he was his eyes were red and he just looked angry and not right I remember he yelled at us and down the street I know who you are you know and so something the effect I'm gonna mess you up or something or I I knew right away that I was in trouble right here is this guy that I bullied who he's now bigger than we were my friend took off he left and I was kind of cornered with this guy and I knew I couldn't go anywhere and I thought well what am I gonna do and I ever met I remember he was coming towards me and he's approaching me and I thought you know I'm gonna get beaten up here for sure right I probably deserve it but I was scared I was I was scared as a teenager I was scared and I remember he said something to the effect of well where do you live right kind of looking around seeing if there's people around they're gonna gonna witness him cleaning my clock and I just just out of nowhere I said well I live right here and I pointed to a house that was right near us and he looked and I looked and in the window is a woman opening the blinds and she had probably heard him yelling and came to look and he saw her and he and he just panicked he took off and I thought I just couldn't believe the gentleman was flowing I was I was Wow okay how did I get out of that situation but I knew right away that was my sign that God had sent me right and I ran home and I remember not long anything about anything right I just kind of fell on my face in my bedroom and I wept and I said like God thank you for saving me I know that was you who saved me from having had from being beaten up by this guy and I didn't know that that laying prostrate was a very historic Christian position to be in but it has deep roots but the interesting thing for me is even back then I recognized this weird dichotomy in that you know I deserve in that moment to to be beaten up this guy you know what I I was mean to him I deserve that but God spared me of that you know it's not a big thing but to me at the time it was a huge thing but it was for you it was it was I mean I say that because when I think about little miracles that have happened in my life goofy things that were there it was God saying I'm here yeah sometimes in the telling they sound goofy yeah but I guess for me it was it was for you it was for me I wanted that sign right yeah and then I thought of even beyond that like that wasn't my house I lied to the guy and said that was my house so here's God you know sparing me from what is serve to be a punishment you know and then using a lie of mine to say you know but I still I still forgive you so right off the bat it was this incredible experience of of you know God saying yeah you know what you're I accept you and all your fault so you're gonna make more mistakes like this one just now and I still I still accept you so I I kind of became a Christian on my own and but I had a best friend when you on your own from reading now at this point you know what I that was it that my question so I had a best friend growing up his name was Brent and we were best friends and I knew he was a Christian because he's always busy on Sundays he couldn't he couldn't he couldn't hang out on Sunday mornings and we couldn't have sleepovers on Saturday nights because he was going on Sunday morning so I knew he was a Christian just through osmosis right you just I knew because things he didn't never talked about it and he wouldn't have considered himself to be very evangelical in his faith but I knew he was a Christian so I went and I asked him what do I do next what do I do and so he never with his with his youth group Wednesday nights he was driving the car this mom to his youth group and I went to his went with him with his with his family to church on Sunday morning and he got me started and knowing what to do and I went and I bought a Bible not knowing anything with the Bible I got a Bible and I began at Genesis I had no idea got to about middle of numbers and and gave up all hope of understanding anything I was reading because it was just you know I went back a little later someone said hey you know I started in the Gospels I said what are the gospel and he's mad because that's that's the path gazillions of people have taken they said and this was one of the good yeah I guess it's Keith's little just make sure the radio audience knows that yeah I mean the people have been on that pad the most read verse in the Bible so anyway I got it you know so I got my start with my friend here and I got connected into a youth group a bit closer to where I was and got really involved in the church there it was a nominally Pentecostal kind of church and their youth group and the Christian Club at our school and the the first kind of sign in out back now my journey and the first kind of indication that something was going on I think towards the Catholic Church was this youth group had a bit of a controversy around predestination I wanted to weigh in Calvinist theology and and stuff and you know looking back now I'm a little bit I'm glad to know where I was because here we are these high school kids debating Calvin and predestination and McDonald doctor you three went on a Friday night we weren't partying we were debating these rich theological texts right did you say you guys were kinda nerdy but you know we so so early on in my Christian journey I thought well this this doesn't make sense because here we are we're all earnestly trying to interpret the Bible we all have our scriptures and we can't agree and in in high school in this youth group I had friends who lost their faith because they were told well you aren't part of the elect because if you don't feel like you are part of the elect if you don't feel like you're a short of your salvation well then you're not and I had friends walk away from the church at that time and I thought this this can't be the system doesn't seem to work if it's just me in the Bible so that was kind of the first indication of something some deeper proving and so I went away to university and got taken have there been any Catholic connections at all no no none really I had some friends at high school who are Catholics just nominally not really any connection and we didn't really talk about Catholicism at all like if we did it was you know that's different you know that's more but ritual and it wasn't really but it wasn't really talked down upon either it wasn't really you know mentioned as part of the French guys doing another province so one way to university and got hooked up with a really great student church very vibrant you know awesome awesome Church ended up meeting my wife there in a sense we were together in like a in a kind of Mennonite residence it was very ecumenical lots of Christians from all kinds of across the spectrum at this residence and we ended up going to the students church on campus and I had a car so I drove her and some of our friends there and so we kind of connected over that and and go to this church and you know a couple things happened early on there I read CS Lewis the great divorce and and I read that in that for me really resonated with me I thought this is a great picture of the afterlife and and a very interesting picture of purgatory in a way and I thought I read this book and I loved it and I thought this is my theology at all I didn't know how to understand it because my theology at the time was you know well you said a prayer and you were saved and once you're saved you're always saved and when you die you're in heaven the next moment with with Christ and I read CS Lewis and thought well this makes more sense to me because I never understood how you know I can be sinful and do these awful things and die and right away I could be I can feel like I'm okay right here with Jesus and and in this in this in this afterlife in heaven I couldn't understand how I thought well no you know what I don't think I would feel in a heartbeat like that like I fit in there well CS Lewis showed me this picture of well you kids kind of gradual journey towards this you know this this completes eternal eternal bliss and that made more sense to me but didn't it fit with what my theology and so I thought what you know this piece doesn't fit in so what do I do with that and the second thing was looking at what the scriptures say about confession and I remember reading about confession and thinking well we don't do that either so where does that fit I did some I did some like where you have John 20 where the Apostles are given the authority to forgive sins right so what do you do with that because if you don't have that in I thought we're you know where's this and who's doing this why aren't we doing this who who's doing this and why they do why are they doing it why aren't we and I couldn't find any answers you know now I understand kind of a progression of well seeker-sensitive churches wanted to kind of make those churches feel more open so the idea of even corporates confession was kind of removed and you know in an effort to make people more comfortable Christianity but at the time I I couldn't find and I asked around whose and I couldn't find you know any answers there so those two things were kind of or kind of brewing and I went to work my dad worked at a company that made kind of point-of-sale debit machines and I went to work in the warehouse one summer inspecting them he'd open the box take it out press some buttons make sure it worked put it back in and it was it paid well it was great work and my mom made lunches for me dad drove me in so I could have a lunch made for me I could nap on the drive in it was it you know what any kid wouldn't want a job like that it was just fantastic and but podcasting was coming into its was beginning at that time so I had an iPod and back then you had to go on search for a podcast and download it was very complicated process now you can open your phone and it's just the air for you doing but only a couple of podcasts that were really out back then and one was the one called the daily breakfast talked about culture and and videogames and movies and TV shows and I thought this this sounds okay so I I downloaded that listen to it while I unpacked the machines for about a week and then I realized one day that this the host was introducing himself as father Rodrick I thought what's what's that meet you like what is he is he a dad like who's this and I did a little research and I took that he was a priest a Catholic priest in the Netherlands father Rodrick and he's and I thought oh wow like this guy were listening to for a week he seems really cool he he likes TV shows and he's a real person he's a Catholic priest I didn't know that Catholic priests could be real people like I didn't I didn't connect this this interesting you know funny guy with with well you know I thought oh okay so he's Catholic and he began talking about he had a segment called the peculiar bunch where he would talk about a little bit of Catholic stuff that he started doing on a show and so I was getting a little too exposure to Catholic things just a little there's a little segment you know is here's culture and TV and then here's a bit about cattle in Oh Keith autism right and so I was getting a little bit of this and and I just didn't know that Catholics you know I didn't I didn't know that somebody could be a cop pretty soon have interests like that it was yeah I'm trying to imagine what kind of an image you had of Catholics growing up in Canada then I don't think I really had a one but if I had one I wouldn't have been this this this guy who likes TV shows and video games that kind of stuff it was really interesting to me to learn about that right so so that that began that opened the door for me to think about you know Catholicism I haven't they and he knew his faith so well - which was a big thing for me you know all the Catholics I knew and what I hadn't when I had known about Catholics was that they didn't know their faith right yeah but he did he talked about it he's and I was learning things and so around the same time I met a couple of I met a couple of Catholics yeah one was a friend from university who he was the guy who always came into lectures and sat at the front and fell asleep and I thought you know you know one kind of person sits in the back and falls asleep but I want to meet this guy who can sit in the front and fall asleep I thought he was so interesting and and I had a laptop back then and I was one of the few people in the class I had a laptop so I my notes were typed up you know I saved for I saved for it in high school and bought it with my money and and and so one day he came toward me and asked no can i Boris when your notes because I said well yeah you might want them you were sleeping through the entire semester and we became good friends and turns out that he was a Catholic and I shared with him that I was evangelical went to this student church and in and he actually wanted to do an exchange so he said why don't you come to Mass with me one day they had a weekly mass on campus and I'll come to your student Church so he came to my church he said well it's loud a lot of singing very very loud what's his take away and I went to Mass with him and kind of gave me a bit of prep ahead of time what to expect and no I kind of crossed myself when I went up for for the Eucharist and and but a couple of things to note with me and there are things that I don't think should have but it was interesting the first was how how diverse the crowd was you know I couldn't believe that in this in this weekday mass noon on a Wednesday there were there were there were families and they were kind of custodial staff and professors and students and and it so many different walks of life and it was this you know I had no idea these people could be Catholics like all these people are Catholics there it was really interesting to me and the second thing and this is really on me I think and I've worked this out along my journey was I remember the priest kind of did his thing and when the mass was over he was just out the door like lightning and I remember thinking like you know if this were my students also been on campus you know that pastor sticks around he meets people and he introduces himself and wants to know where are you from like tell me about your journey like how can we help you get into our church deeper and I remember going away thinking like oh he's just doing his job like it's what this is what I thought about Catholics or they just kind of you know he's just doing his job and he's gone like he you know he doesn't really live his faith out and and and whatever and and that was a lot on me because I was in hindsight now you know how busy priests are right in a class to teach right or he had or he had someone to see at the hospital or like he had other places to be but at that time I saw I saw that as as well he's just he's just well let's face it most non Catholic ministers do a worship or two maybe on Sunday but then they don't do anything yeah yeah and here's the priest yeah probably more than once a day yeah big mass yes well let's say on a Sunday yeah I had no idea but I thought well that was just another thing of right and so I so so but it's also fascinating that you were what came out to you was a diversity of the yeah Congress yes yes yeah which tells you that you wouldn't have expected diversity in your church no no no that was very interesting to me so that was my experience my of mass but my friend was a he was interesting guy you know he was he was very much he would say very pro-life Catholic but then I saw him on on on weekends kind of his own thing right now and and that's me was was one spectrum of the Catholic faith life right I thought well you know as an evangelical you know we would try best to live out our faith all the time right and and those Catholics whether they're on Sundays whether they're on a weekday mass but but the rest their lives are separate right and that's what I kind of saw for my friend it seemed that way that he would do you know X on a Saturday but then Y on a Sunday and it was it was that reinforce for me one one preconceived notion I had a book Catholics right you know I maybe it's time to take a break but how long did it take you to discover that your friend wasn't sleeping in the front of the but he was sitting there praying break yeah come back in a minute with her guest Keith little [Music] [Music] welcome back to the journey home I'm Marcus Grodi your host for this program and before we continue with our our guests and I just want to remind you of this book that EWTN has published called from atheism to Catholicism it was edited by Brandon McKinley and it's the stories of nine of the former journey home guests it's their stories of atheist coming to Catholicism and just in case you're wondering the guests that are featured in this book are joseph pierce holly Ordway scott McDermott John Barger father John Parr tunic Rhonda Shervin Charles Spivak mark drogon and Kevin vhost you may have seen all their stories on the journey home well this is a great compilation of their books their stories both for you as well as for you to give away to your friends so you can find this book on ewtn religious catalogue all right our guest is Keith little I interrupted Union that's you story let's get back to it so you've had this experience in the Catholic Church but you didn't go out the next day and joined no I didn't know and so I met I met the one Catholic friend from the one end of the spectrum and I met a second Catholic from the other end of the spectrum it was a friend who lived upstairs and house he rented with his wife and kids and he's a philosopher and IT guy and very much kind of a regimented rules guy right and so I saw I in him I saw Catholicism as what I thought I'd heard about it you know our very rules based kind of religion right we talked about Catholicism you know in the church that I grew up in in high school it was that kind of a rules-based religion right it was yeah that's what it was so I I I know now that's assess personality like he's he's that kind of person right but what I saw from these two different Catholics was two into the spectrum and I thought well where does this fit like where does this I couldn't understand it right but I was interested you know I just I couldn't figure it out so the next thing that happened was I went to work for that student Church to internal summer when I finished my undergrad degree and the pastor at the time one day I can still picture it clear in my mind calming his office one day sat me down much like we're here and he said he said the question for you and I learned later that he was on a bit of a journey of his own he he was doing his master's and he was raised Catholic I think at French Canada and and I think you know he was looking at his his upbringing and kind of trying to figure where that fit and where he was now I didn't know this at the time but we sat down and he said I have a question for you you know what do you think is more important the Bible or a tradition I thought no what do you mean but I knew that the answer to every question in Sunday school is either Jesus or the Bible and so I said of course it's the Bible of course the Bell you know what tradition is this stuffy you know thing of the Pharisees it's it's the Bible I said to me well well who put the Bible together and I said what do you mean like God put it together put it together tradition put together he said to Richard puts it you know tradition looked at you know the authority of tradition words he looked at what books go in there and tradition you know affirm that Canon and I and and which ones I hadn't thought that before right we treated the Bible as if you know in Christian history I think as if well Jesus was here the Apostle here that you know they wrote the Bible it was this and then we got it here you know there was no nothing in between it was just kind of handed to us and he said no no it was the tradition of the church that that put the Bible together so isn't that isn't that more important right and and I thought wow and I walked into there thinking you know kind of having my my my framework of faith kind of shaken because I couldn't think of a way to to to debate that to disagree with him I did a little bit of research and and and thinking and you have schools of thought that say well those those books in the Bible were just the most popular books so the church should affirm the books that were already already very popular but you dig deeper in history right and you go well no no no why were they popular well they were popular because the bishops who who saw there their authority coming from the apostles which came from Christ those bishops said no no these books are the books we should read that's why they were popular not in and of themselves popular books but but you know at the time I I just well I don't know I don't know but but that that little question just kind of led me on you know deeper on a journey and so I remember I kind of started thinking about tradition and I remember I had a little I had a little blog at the time where I was right kind of different little things and I started thinking about tradition and I actually came to the conclusion you know through a series of little articles I was working out I think the conclusion was well Catholic tradition is safer than evangelical tradition was my conclusion and I worked it out because I thought well you know looking at the worship of service I'd order a service right order abortion Catholics can can tell you where this comes from right look at the decay those kind of things right we you know that that tradition says how how Catholics do things well I thought well why in my you knuckle tradition why do we pray at certain times and why do we have you know these for worship songs and repeat this core a certain number of times and if you're in a Pentecostal church we do that of course 20 times or you know why do we do community once a month then why do we and I thought we don't you know that's just the whim of the denomination or that or that pastor or you know and I and I was working out that I'd rather be a part of a tradition that can trace its roots and know why we're doing things then this tradition that kind of you know why why is it done this way we don't really do you know because we do it this way right because it you know so I'm starting to think about about tradition in in that sense because well the dangers there I was going to say is that if you're asking the question why do we do it this way that often the answer is well we really doesn't matter sure how you do those things there's no need to worry about whether we do it well the problem with that is that starts unzipping everything what does yeah yeah it does what things do matter yeah yeah yeah so so we were there and and you know and in the meantime you know my wife and I got married and bought a house and these things are still in my mind these unresolved you know unresolved kind of things from from some high school youth group right well why why can't we all just read this in a green write and and why is my theology not fitting with CS Lewis's picture of of the Great Divorce which makes sense to me I couldn't know and why would it in confession and and I ended up the church were going to nondenominational church ended up moving in with a Lutheran congregation and ensuring the space so separate worship services but here we were over the first time Kevin O Matic Church with a building that looked very liturgical right there was a there was an altar and there was you know I couldn't I couldn't get over the fact there was this candle that always burned in this church Hanks and ceilings red red glass that's really cool I could say that Jesus is here that was interesting to me and we'd see their priest in between services and he wore a collar and he will and he wore vestments and I thought you know I thought getting closer to something that you know that kind of appeals to me let this connection with tradition like you know they know why they're doing this a certain way and I don't know why we're doing it this way but this way seems to have more grounding you know it's it you know it seems safer because it's with a purpose they know why they're there doing that and we started reading through lectionary it the kind of the same time and again you know more grounding in in intuition right so the Sunday messages were based on that week's reading which followed the lectionary which followed this this I just would ever verse the pastor one grab yeah yeah so that that that to me just being that environment you know with stained glass windows and its church that had an altar and then and that that kind of rekindled in me this thinking that I've been doing kind of all along you know and about questions of tradition and and you know I'd met those Catholic friends I had been to a mass and then had this question about tradition and the Bible and and then being in this beingness space really opened things up for me and I remember at the time a very close friend of mine and I were kind of wrestling with social teaching issues so things around like same-sex marriage in Evangelic Church really wasn't is still dividing dividing the church and it's it's very much you know different places and again here's that debate from from high school well we're all reading the same text we're all looking at the same stuff how come we're coming to different conclusions about what it says and how could they be so so radically different right and often is it's it's papered over as well there's those are differences but they're not fundamental difference it's not big big issues well you know things like in high school well salvation is a big issue right I had friends that walked out of the youth group because they felt they weren't saved anymore that's that's not looking at the text and and differing on small things those are looking at the same text and we can't agree on big things right so we did some reading write a bunch of books different perspectives on on on marriage and those kind of issues and and and none of them agreed and none of them none of them offered to me a conclusion with with how we can go over this issue of looking at the same thing and I kept thinking maybe I mean something to it finally may help me understand you know how we are to interpret these scriptures but nothing kind of nothing did everyone was just doing their own kind of interpretation of the same thing I remember thinking back to the Scriptures where you know Christ talks about you know if two of you disagree you know we'll bring a third and if three disagree well bring it to the church you know right I mean we sorted out I remember thinking well well what church what church because if if Church here disagrees well then Church down the street what we'll agree right if if I can't find a church that fits my interpretation of the Scriptures I can start my own to write it was this culture this this culture of there's there's no church to go to with with a disagreement or with a theological concern because if you can't find the answer here well then this one's is different this one over here is different than just a sense of you know well this system makes no sense to me right because the Jesus tells us you know if you don't agree you know bring into the church and the church will sort it out and this is all through the epistles and oh you know I thought well where where is that church you know I I so that's when I realized that you know well you know there's this Catholic Church I met these Catholic friends and you know what I I did what I know now from reading Chesterton what he talks about being fair to the Catholic Church I remember I don't know the exact quote but along the lines of you know once you're fair to the Catholic Church once you give the Catholic Church a fair shake well you'll become Catholic because you can't help from if you if you you know what if you honestly say I'm willing to explore what you say about yourself and what the Catholic Church says well you're you're sunk like that's it you're you're Catholic this book conversion in the cast yeah sure he's wondering that's where it's from it's a great yeah and I read that later on and and well that was when I became was was being fair because that's what so I made a you know a choice to begin being fair to catheter statistics to explore what what what they said because here's a church that is a physical thing right and claims to be a United Church you know it's really blue a little bit of a tradition yeah yeah but I do know this seeds have been planted and and and and I realized you know along that journey that you know well it was the Catholic Church their firm with a cannon so if this is a church that put the Bible together right way back when when that process and pastor asked that question well I have to at least explore what they say now and if they're relevant now and not just another denomination doing its own thing you know so I made a choice to look into that right and so I went online and I looked up I found a list of books that prostitue read about Catholicism and I read a bunch of books and they're all by Protestant authors and and none of that made a lot of sense right it was I was kind of on the edge of Catholicism and nothing I could I could really read kind of was a good picture of the church it was bits and pieces of little things and I thought you know what about the church from from the church itself from actual Catholic authors right and I found a list of of converts of evangelicals of process we become Catholic I thought oh like this happens this is this is a thing I had no idea that why would you want to you know I'm I'm investigating this but I had no idea that that there's this such as long tradition of evangelicals doing this right so read things by Scott Hahn and Stephen Rea and Thomas Howard and and things I had no idea that the church thoughts but the Eucharist and apostolic succession and these different things and and and I was just sort of think like this is there's something in this and I went on YouTube and found this show called the journey home and hear all of these converse telling their stories but becoming Catholic and this church of the Michigan Our Lady of Good Counsel they put all of their RCIA on on YouTube their whole entire year multiple years so here I was very quickly went from being fair to the Catholic Church to up until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning on YouTube my wife is upstairs asleep in bed I'm on the computer on YouTube watching I did a whole two years of our CAA courses I think in the span of a few months just watching these three our videos on YouTube this is rich rich teaching and just couldn't believe what I was what I was hearing and I got to a point where I was I was talking to you know a very good friend of mine evangelical friend and I said like we gotta find something that's gonna help me stop this this you know I think I'm becoming Catholic the more I read the more I understand what Catholics actually teach you know from from the mouths of Catholics you know this answers a lot of the questions that I had about you know about confession and about how the Scriptures are interpreted in these kind of things and I said find me something that that I can I can put the brakes on right and so I remember he sent me a video of this debate between this partisan pastor and this Catholic priest and this Catholic priest with this guy with a gravelly voice and this big bushy beard named father Mitch Pacwa and of course you know we know who that is now I had no idea who he was and I remember this debate at the very end of the debate this process pastor wheels out this big suitcase and it starts piling up these great big books on his podium varies they kind of like very much pomp and like there they they go on his pedestal and he said he said my problem with Catholics is that to be a Catholic you have to you have to you know know all of these things all these rules to be a Catholic these you know huge books he said and as a as a Protestant all I have to know is this and hold up his Bible this this law you know this really fit in line NIV Bible there's all you to notice is this I thought wow like you know the debate went pretty well the whole thing this is the end though I thought well you know what he's got me like you know what here again as this conception of Catholicism as kind of following these rules you know I listen to these RCIA videos I'd read this stuff and but you know my fear of the Catholic Church was yeah this this rules kind of thing but father Mitch gets up slowly and kind of goes to the podium and he says sure sure the Catholic Church has had new things to say in the last two thousand years we've written those things down those are good things to know but but you don't have to know all those things because they don't have to memorize all those things be Catholic but if you want to be a Protestant and be sure that you know your faith and sure that you are following the right interpretation of the faith on big things like how am I saved right you have to be a theologian and a philosopher and know the ancient languages and know ancient history and have read you know from all the schools of theology to make sure that you have your beliefs right where to be Catholic you know you'd be Catholic and and here's the church that says this is what used to be you know come be Catholic but to be present you have to know more than those giant books right not just a Bible but all the ways to interpret it to make sure that you you know have it right right and I thought wow like no that's that's it right and and then I read the early church fathers right that was that was what I think seals that seals the ticket for a lot of people right and and here I saw things like like the Eucharist right that like the I read about in these stories of the converse and read about in different things but here you see you know the early church fathers in interpreting those things the same way right you know we came from from a school of thought that God gave him the Bible like we you know Bible is written here it is nothing in between right Reformation maybe that takes the corrupted Catholic Church but nothing nothing in between well here I was realizing that there were these these writers who'd learned from the Apostles writing about things that were very Catholic right understanding the Eucharist how Catholics did right understanding that their their authority came from the Apostles who got thority from from Christ and and I you know to realize that the that continued right you know the Apostles didn't just live and die and within like you know hundred years that church was gone and that information we found that church no no no these there were writers that writing these things all along in this great that's great tradition right and and I really kind of you know I had no idea so I'd read these things and realize I had to become Catholic and and realize I had my wife kind of in the conversation I even she she and she is a living Saint and I'm not great at odds at sharing big ideas sometimes like no she knew what I was up to I read a lot and but kind of sat down and kind of said you know what I think I have to do this I have to and for us we were we met in this church were married in this church we we our faith was was you know what built our marriage and we were very much in the same page all along in our relationship so it was weird to think that I was gonna go this way and and she and she wasn't and I remember one conversation that we had a very passionate conversation about I can't remember what the topic was but it was very very very passionate conversation you know we knew our theology we knew our stuff and it was and went to bed and thinking you know that well you know what we'll be on different pages for a long time because where we were in the conversation was very very far apart and and it was heartbreaking to think that we wouldn't be in the same page in our faith life anymore right and that it was hard and I had heard about I'd read a lot about Saints and the community of the Saints and and it made sense to me because of course if you know if if you died you weren't suddenly cut off from from the body of Christ that body is is here on earth and it's and it's in heaven that made sense to me so I hadn't really prayed to Saints but I'd heard I think from probably Pope Francis about Mary as under of knots and I love that I love that image of you know I'm doing it not can't happen quickly it's a slow it's a deliberate very very poetic thing to think about I think I remember just praying my wife's name is Maria I figured she's got some street cred or something not sure I remember just saying you know well you know Mary under if not is just pray for this situation pray for us that the Lord would would open some doors or whatever and I went to bed the next morning I'm waking up and my wife's saying you know we have this debate about this but did you know that the church is this and this and this and we we said this but you know that they also say this this and this this and this and and it turns out she was up for four hours that night reading about what the church taught on these things right I didn't even know so she was teaching me then right so here was just this amazing you know I prayed this prayer but but you know the next morning I thought okay so you know this will still be a years thing the next morning she was schooling me on the Catholic faith so I did our CIA called the Catholic Church did our CIA making the mistake that altars were the same you know universal Church must do the same everywhere right so I ended up in kind of a sleepy congregation where I did our CI a and I'd done it already on YouTube right two years worth of these courses but it was humbling right to have to listen again and to take that time to have to you know become Catholic but my wife and in that phase of my my conversion I think that's a way of coping kind of became a Catholic stand-up comedian and and she was just we've done the things she was saying because she's just cracking these jokes all the time but Catholic stuff and she came once with me twice actually to the Catholic parish for mass we were still kind of double double-timing it so you know like one time at mass once at our Protestant Church for her and you know I was receiving to the church at one point and went a few times to Mass at this church and one particular Mass I remember aftermash it says to me you know I a miracle happen at Mass and I said oh oh honey that always happens that's the that's the real presence we call that that always happens that miracles always here but it's miracle still but yeah you know trying to one-up her and she said no no no I closed my eyes when the priest was praying and and I opened them everyone's coats were on so that they could receive the host and get back to the parking lot to get home as fast as they could and and I laugh but it broke my heart at the same time and it broke her heart to write to think that I was becoming Catholic or became Catholic at that time I think and here was here was what I was what I was joining right this we came from a non-denominational church that had all kinds of family programming and a rich Sunday School and youth group and teaching ministry and her and I were together on the missions team the small groups team and we served together at the married couples ministry and and you know I thought am i leaving all this for for for this experience there's a good time at Mass she was pregnant with her with her first our son Samuel and she fainted on the man next to her she was great she was very lightheaded for a lot of that pregnancy in the early stages so I joke that you know her Catholic comedy even included slapstick because here she was the middle of mass just just falls over and faints but you know so I became cat I became Catholic but then for us the journey became beginning became finding a church where you know we felt and that I think a lot of conference becomes that becomes the journey afterwards right it's finding a parish that that is dynamic that has those those those Catholic disciples right and I owe a lot to a small little Paris called st. Mary's and visitation Cambridge Father Freitas is a wonderful pastor there who entered you know we eventually ended up landing in that church and it was it was one Saturday night at a vigil Mass I was by myself and she was at home with her then our son who is then six months old or so and is after the vigil mass Saturday night there was a scream social and I thought well you know who doesn't like ice cream on a Sunday so there I am didn't know anybody just a pretty new Catholic I'm looking for a Paris where we can fit in it sitting at a table you might scream Sunday and suddenly the youth minister is there and joins me introduces himself and then the sister does the Sunday School Toad's ministry he comes over introduces herself and then the pastor goes over introduces himself and Here I am the table with the whole parish team here right just kind of leaning into me and know who are you you know who's your and and that for me was a picture of of what all of our churches you know be you know right and and my wife a year after me joined the church through through st. Mary's through that warm welcoming environment right and I remember I was bouncing our son the little carrier out in the narthex in the complete darkness all the lights are off while she's inside behind the glass doors you know in the church with you know being confirmed Here I am it's the tears streaming down my face dancing the baby in the dark you know watching her join the church where even a year earlier I thought would never happen yeah right but you know that's that's the grace from the very first of being raised in this moral household to finally a youth group were you know I had to ask questions about well who's interpreting what to find this this this church that that that that teaches this this robust you know tradition and I was think wonderful historic Ethernet and it reminds me that one of the key things that we learn as Catholics takes a while but is the issue of humility is growing yeah you know in our Protestant world that isn't always is emphasized as important it is been a Catholic world it's very important yeah and sometimes part of that humility is what we find in reality isn't exactly what we find right yes paper yeah yeah tell us just a minute ago I make sure you have a chance to tell the audience about the cordial Catholic calm that started well it's funny you mention humility because I'm not a very cordial person my wife will attest this I'm pretty grumpy most of the time I thought I'm gonna pick a name that I have to grow into right so so you know it began as just my conversion story writing about for whoever wanted read it about what I was experiencing and it's grown into I know about this blog Gordo Catholic comm we're just writing about faith from my own perspective and it helped me to work out a lot of the things I was thinking along the way right of of these big things tradition and who can interpret the Bible and yeah that's where it again god bless you for following truth yeah I mean that's what you did all the time seeking and following truth in different ways you're explaining it to us for others out there that are struggling themselves thank you thank you very much for joining us on a journey home language 4th grade right and God bless you in that work it's a mom for those young men and girls and seeing the faith in someone that's you're calling us future thank you very much thank you thank you for joining us on this episode of the journey home again one or mind you if you want to find out more about my work more conversion stories go to CH network.org and i do pray that Keith's story was an encouragement to you god bless you see you next week [Music] you

Channel: EWTN

Views: 17,570

Rating: 4.9512196 out of 5

Keywords: JHT, JHT01610

Id: 6RHDHh2XWVc

Length: 56min 10sec (3370 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 16 2018