Johnny Depp bombshell testimony: Amber Heard's inner rage & hostility | LiveNOW from FOX

or even on the test alone you'd integrate other data all right how did you administer the mmpi 2 to ms hurt i provided her the test on an ipad she essentially had her own little desk area and then an ipad she hits start it provides her with the instructions and then the it gives her 567 statements in order for each one she taps true or false what did you learn about miss hurt from the results of the mfpi too quite a bit i um i wrote up a 25-page interpretation outline it has numerous numerous scales so one of the reasons i like this measure so much is that it can tell you so much about multiple different traits and tendencies and mental issues one of the primary things i learned was that she had a very uh sophisticated way of minimizing any personal problems i also learned that she tends to well there were a number of characteristics that were consistent with the eventual diagnosis but some of the primary characteristics and i'm going to try to condense 25 pages here were essentially externalization of blame tending to have a lot of inner hostility that is attempted to be controlled um a tendency to be very self-righteous but to also deny that self-righteousness and to judge others um critically uh against these sort of high standards for moral value but also to deny doing that essentially to claim that one is uh very non-judgmental and accepting and yet very full of rage really and um and these aren't facts but her scores essentially correlated so they were consistent with other people who obtained these scores who have been shown through many many many studies to have these very specific traits so externalization of blame a lot of inner anger and hostility sometimes that anger among these groups with similar scores these people might have that anger kind of explode out at times they tend to be very passive-aggressive they may be self-indulgent very self-centered they could use manipulation tactics to try to get their needs met very needy of attention acceptance approval um they tend to uh distance people who are close to them initially they may seem very charming they're very socially sophisticated actually that was a major component on there they have a capacity to kind of offer some of their faults but in a way but only the ones that people think of lightly and can all relate to and so they can present as very fair imbalance but in actuality they really might uh uh be very judgmental of others and unaware of problems in their behavior and their thinking so after you uh provide the the examination by the ipad what do you do so once they've completed the test you can have it scored by the computer immediately it's a very very complex test to interpret but right away you get a list of what's called critical items and these are just some a couple of the items the statements that are presented that are more clearly symptom-based and i always follow up with the examinee some of these might have to do with suicide some of them might have to do with other symptoms that you just like to get a little bit more information on because sometimes an examinee might tell you they're completely fine when you're doing your interview with them and that they have no symptoms and then when they take the test it says that they're having trouble sleeping or they struggle with nausea all the time or they feel very anxious and so you want to follow up on that okay what's a code type a code type let me uh think of how to explain this very very simply so the main scales and i keep referring to scales these are just uh the main scores that come up on this test we can refer to them as codes and when i was saying that ms heard's scores could be compared to certain groups of people that had been researched before to obtain similar scores the research has shown that certain people will have certain scores that kind of spike on this okay and so all of those traits that i would describe was describing those are traits that are found in these code types so it means that number two score number two was high and score number six was high and so if we have those two scores were both high then that's a two six code type and these code types what code type was misheard ms heard had the clearest code type was three six but then she also had some other code types that were less significant what characteristics are associated with a three six code type so a three six code type a lot of that anger is expressed in this code type there can be actually a lot of cruelty uh usually with people who are less powerful actually when you see this code type you want to if you can to follow up with subordinates co-workers people who may have observed their behavior more closely the 3-6 code type is very concerned with their image very attention-seeking very prone to externalizing blame to a point where uh it's unclear whether they can even admit to themselves that they do have responsibility in certain areas a lot of suppressed and denied anger but the anger is very present will explode out and a lot of issues in their close relationships how does ms hurt's code type fit in with your overall opinion as to personality disorders well um this might be an appropriate time to describe a little bit about these personality disorders because i think what you'll hear is that there's a lot of consistency there so borderline personality disorder is a disorder of stability it's instability and it's instability and personal relationships it's instability in their emotions it's instability in their behavior and it's instability in their sense of self and their identity and that instability is really driven by this underlying terror of abandonment so one of the key features also this disorder and all of it is like pistons of an engine kind of firing off and igniting one another but when somebody is afraid of being abandoned by their partner or by anybody else in their environment and they have this disorder they'll make desperate attempts to prevent that from happening and those desperate attempts could be physical aggression it could be threatening it could be harming themselves but these are behaviors that are usually very extreme and very concerning to the people around them the anger is typically what sadly it's counteractive right so the thing these people fear most is being abandoned but over time the anger the explosive anger that they show when somebody is uh needing space or when somebody's really not doing anything wrong because a lot of times they read into things that they perceive as being a slight to them or being somebody intending to harm them that actually isn't happening they'll exaggerate it and they'll explode they'll react in this heightened manner that is just exhausting for their partners oftentimes their partners will try to make them happy at first and really allow themselves to be a punching bag thinking that they can somehow solve this problem that somehow they can make this better and eventually it just overwhelms them histrionic personality disorder is very before we move on okay um are you familiar with the term emotional reactivity i am what is that so emotional reactivity is very common in the diagnosis so essentially uh like i said there's instability and emotions people with borderline personality disorder are often misdiagnosed as having bipolar disorder because they can be up and down they can look very depressed and they can look very elated but these changes are happening within a matter of hours somebody with bipolar disorder these are this is a clinical depression lasting days weeks a clinical mania where sometimes they even need to be hospitalized because they're so grandiose they clear out their bank account and go to vegas and spend it all they're acting in some very bizarre ways with a borderline personality disorder you're having these fluctuating moods constantly and again this hypersensitivity to being slighted or feeling offended really driven by the fear that if you're offended or slighted if the therapist comes in two minutes late or if somebody shows up to dinner two minutes late that they might be abandoning you and it's not as if the borderline is considering themselves abandoned in that moment but they just know that they have this overwhelming emotion and there are no attempts to control that emotion there's no there are no attempts to regulate it so if they're in the middle of the restaurant and they feel offended they're going to start the fight people are going to see it or they might just start crying or break down but they'll make a lot of accusations and that reactivity is when you're going to just you're going to see a lot of this escalation the bizarre behavior they can react violently they can react aggressively they will often physically prevent their partner from trying to leave if their partner wants to get space from all of this intense emotion and oftentimes they will be abusive to their partners in these situations sometimes they'll physically restrain them from leaving and become injured that way but also people with borderline personality disorder it seems to be a predictive factor for women who implement violence against their partner and one of the most common tactics that they'll use is actually physically assaulting and then getting harmed themselves but mostly we call this administrative violence so essentially this is saying that they'll make threats using the legal system so they might say that they are going to file restraining order or claim abuse or they might do these things to essentially try to keep their partner from leaving in the moment again they're not consciously thinking i'm going to keep my partner from leaving right now they're just thinking i can't stand this i hate my partner they went from idealizing to suddenly devaluing because of the hurt and they'll do anything to express that big emotion of anger your honor may we approach all right yes sir okay you indicated you were talking about emotional reactivity uh what if any emotional reactivity did you uh observe in your review and let's do this one at a time okay so there were a couple indications to me uh first i can sort of think about it with the treatment records so particularly uh dr um cohen connells am i getting the name right i feel like for some reason in my mind i might have just reversed it uh but dr cohen's records i did reverse it uh he actually refers to this reactivity quite a bit and to misheard's temper and that that temper it's often branded or being hot-headed is really characteristic of borderline personality disorder as is their very charming personable nature it's it's this is a disorder of contradictions uh in nurse philadel's notes um she had i thought there was something interesting she references a night when they're out to dinner i believe in london and she provided positive reinforcement to misheard because miss heard had been disappointed by a mistake made by the server and it sort of references how previously she might have criticized the server and become upset by that and that she didn't this time and so that that had been some sort of a step forward and there was also an indication actually in dr hughes's dr hughes is a forensic psychologist who had been appointed by ms hurd to conduct as an evaluation as well in miss hughes's interview of ms heard miss heard disclosed that she had cut her arm in the past which is a typical reactive type thing somebody with this diagnosis can do it's one of the symptoms um and that's sort of all i can think of top of my mind from the treatment records moving into some of the declarations or deposition testimony what struck me was ms raquel pennington's testimony she's a former friend of miss herds and she indicated she told a story about i suppose they were shopping for thanksgiving accoutrements something to prepare for thanksgiving and miss her struck her in the face sort of out of the blue which is i i thought was interesting because that is one of those signs of borderline personality disorder where if a if a friend or a loved one isn't meeting your needs in that moment borderline people are lying personality disorder things are in these extremes it's black and white we call it splitting and so that person goes from being idealized the perfect person to dumpster they are totally devalued they are the worst friend they don't care anything about me i have better people around and then there will be a repair because the person with this disorder does feel remorseful after they have these reactions angry tell their friend off but over time it wears away at these relationships and so what you'll usually see is many many transitions in their friendships over the years people who have sort of fallen by the wayside who were really very close-knit at one time and then but there's not a lot of consistency in the long term you'll also see that with their intimate relationships many many relationships but none that are particularly long term uh how does borderline personality disorder relate to identity issues so again that instability also travels toward identity and when i was describing personality earlier i was talking a little bit about those traits we have that help us know who we are when you have borderline personality disorder that actually is not something you understand so uh people with this disorder actually take on the identity of the people they're spending time with because it's comforting it's very uncomfortable to not know who you are some people with this disorder will describe a feeling of emptiness when they feel like they've been abandoned because now they don't know who they are in the world and so when somebody with this disorder is going through that initial measurement phase with new people and they're idealizing them they often will take on the identities of those people so they may mimic them in a lot of ways they might mimic the way they dress their interests the way they talk and for this reason the people around somebody with this disorder kind of from the outside may feel like wait i thought you were this way now you're advocating for this and this is your new main interest in life for the thing you're throwing yourself into all completely music tastes might change hobbies will change the way they dress okay in addition to borderline personality disorder i understand that you diagnosed another personality disorder what's that so histrionic personality disorder and these are really two sides of the same coin they belong to the same cluster we call these clusters it's a way to organize personality disorders in that dsm and this cluster is described as the personality disorders that are dramatic erratic and emotional okay so unpredictable but really having to do with emotions and relationships they're very similar whereas i was saying that borderline personality disorder a lot of the key features that you're going to notice are instability when it comes to histrionic a lot of the key features are going to be drama and shallowness similarly with borderline personality disorder there's this under this underlying drive of avoiding abandonment with histrionic personality disorder that underlying drive is to always be the center of attention because if you don't have that attention on you it feels similarly to borderline personality disorder you feel pretty empty like you don't have that sense of being or of value okay so whereas borderline personality disorder might have more of the visible reactivity if somebody seems to be leaving with histrionic personality disorder what you're going to see is extreme discomfort with not being the center of attention extreme efforts to be the center of attention and when they feel that they're not the center of attention you will see some strange things making up stories to try to get attention often taking on a victim or princess role those two roles in particular are pretty consistent seeking caretaking borderline personality disorder is similar because with borderline personality disorder these shifts of identity and the splitting you might see somebody go from being in the dsm it describes it as a needy supplicant of help seeking the perfect caretaker to suddenly being the avenger against injustice or thinking that their partner is a terrible person with histrionic what you'll see is somebody who wants to be the center of attention has sort of that impressionistic speech very flowerly very enthusiastic but nothing's really being said the moment your attention wears away because they're so demanding for attention that's when they might take the victim role or the princess role and even make up stories sometimes those stories are to bolster the victim role sometimes those stories are just to make them look more interesting or accomplished in their mind so that they can get respect and attention that way is there a relation between histrionic personality disorder and attractiveness attractiveness there is strangely and this is always one of the trickiest things to talk about because how do you i mean how is that a symptom but characteristically people with this disorder are very very interested in looks but more importantly they utilize their looks to get that attention to get that respect that they're seeking and so this type of anybody characteristically they actually couldn't even be subtly and when i say flirtatious i'm not talking overtly sexy but uh kind of inappropriately flattering sometimes they act in a kind of a girlish way to be cute into a gender attention and this will even occur in their therapy relationships as a way to sort of avoid getting negative feedback or criticism oftentimes they'll bring the therapist gifts or be distracting if they engage in therapy because they just don't want any criticism they want the therapist to like them does the intelligence of the affected person bear on the manner in which these disorders present excuse me i choked a little of my water yes and i think one way to think about it that's probably a little more accurate than just intelligence is in psychology we would describe this more as sophistication so street smarts so to speak the way for instance i've had many clients who have borderline personality disorder who are messy and really clearly suffering and um they might be difficult and all over the place and yell at you in the middle of session but it's so uh uh it's not tailored it's so much easier to work with because of that just openness and rawness of it genuineness sometimes you'll have a more sophisticated presentation there are nine symptoms and only five have to be mets there are a lot of different combinations and different ways it can present and sometimes you'll have more of a petulant version of this where it really shows when you push the button and you're going whoa what was that so somebody who's really productive high functioning successful and you get to know them and you think they're fantastic because they're so interested in you too and you might not realize it but they're mimicking you perfectly so you're really just kind of falling in love with this new friend who is being you um but then all of a sudden uh you know you say something that they think is offensive and you can't in even in your wildest thoughts understand how that could have offended somebody but their reaction is so strong that you kind of buy into it gosh maybe i did say something offensive and and you feel bad about it so that sophisticated version they can be a little bit more calculated in the way they present they tend to kind of hit you where it hurts a little bit more and they can be actually very very destructive what conclusions were you able to draw about miss hertz sophistication from her testing well from her testing and from her presentation she's she was very likable but her testing in particular showed that she approached it in a manner that remember i told you about those those scales that are pretty neat she approached it in a manner that very clearly minimized any psychological dysfunction not just that but really presented herself of free of any problems and she did so in a way that was very um very sophisticated not obvious by responding to questions that most people might not notice we're trying to detect that uh how did you determine that so that's based on a particular scale on the mmpi too that is designed specifically to detect a type of responding that's a little bit more clever a little bit more sophisticated minimizing problems in a way that most lay people probably wouldn't unders and even providers very difficult to detect you mentioned that one of the characteristics of borderline personality disorder is emotional reactivity how might that present in an intimate relationship so i i think it probably presents mostly uh or you'd see the bulk of it in intimate relationships because of that regular interaction and the desire for your partner to meet all of your needs to be the perfect caretaker also that um the hallmark of the disorder with the splitting so idealizing devaluing and the perceiving of all sorts of neutral events as somehow demeaning or disrespectful it's regular escalations of anger frustrated complaints criticisms of your partner but because the person with borderline personality disorder first of all they're more sensitive to things they feel distressed more strongly and then that distress lasts longer so these types of blow-ups go on forever and they're very cyclic it feels like you just can't get a resolution and eventually the partner will try to leave will want to leave to take a break it wears them down and that's when the borderline might explode and act very aggressively or violently to try to prevent them from leaving okay

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Id: DR0Wu4fa7C4

Length: 29min 10sec (1750 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 26 2022