Jocko Willink On BUDS

this raises a question and I think it's um one that I and several other people I talk to in anticipation this podcast we're asking you know I think one reason why people are drawn to people who had been in the SEAL Teams um and you in particular are that I think everybody not just males but females too I think everybody wants to know like their calibration point on their level of toughness I think people wonder you know I think when people talk about Buds and all that I think a lot of people wonder would I make it through right I've certainly wondered it I haven't spent hours on it I went my path I'm happy for the path I went um but I think people wonder like do I have this thing that supposedly buds selects for and if I don't like how tough am I or not tough am I I think that we all can look at other people's physically and I'm not somebody that does a lot of this I know some people are really obsessed by this like oh that person has like an eight pack with like veins on there like I don't understand that that's not me but I understand some people do that even to the point of pathology but I think most people wonder like how resilient am I how and they can look to experiences that they've survived and say I made it through or I'm resilient or not but is there a way that like we can certainly that we can train it by doing hard things cold showers this kind of thing are like small examples of those but do you think it's even an important question to ask and if it is you know how does one go about thinking like where where like how resilient am I should we put ourselves into situations of discomfort just to test that because I will say I think a lot of people look to SEAL Teams and Team guys in particular as kind of a a calibration point of like okay they know how to do hard things they were selected for the ability to carry logs and get into cold water over and over and roll in the sand and go without sleep for a week or so like but that's probably not what they were doing when they were on deployments it's clearly a pressure test for something else yeah it's a strange strange thing the basic underwater demolition SEAL training and quite frankly going and getting wet and cold and being miserable is is actually nothing um compared to like being on deployment and a good example that I use to compare this to is when I was on deployment in 2006 in ramadi there was uh as you were as you were driving off base to go to the city to go into the City and conduct operations as you drove out of the compound on your right was this area that was called the vehicle graveyard and the vehicle graveyard was exactly what it sounds like it was probably 75 or 100 vehicles that were blown up destroyed burned um in various Twisted conditions that have been dragged back through the city and put into this vehicle graveyard and as you drove by that vehicle graveyard you know without question that every one of those Twisted Vehicles represented one two three four five American casualties wounded horribly wounded killed and there you are in a vehicle about to roll out into that City where what you're looking at can easily be you in the next three minutes and you're going to do that today you're going to do that tomorrow you do that the next day and the day after that and the day after that that compared to and by the way this isn't just seals that are doing that this is Marines this is the army guys that are over there this is what everyone is doing and they do it they do it um you know I talk about Markley he was one of my guys the first seal killed in Iraq and he was the lead turret Gunner in the lead Humvee and like in Vietnam if you were the point man in Vietnam if you want to like an infantry Patrol you have a point man in Vietnam you were at risk booby traps Ambush so they rotated you out like you didn't have to stay up there all all the time you do an hour up with the as Point man they get someone else up there and that guy the lead turret Gunner in the in a Humvee column of four or five or six Vehicles if you hit an IED that's the vehicle that's going to hit it right if you go into an ambush that's the guy that's going to get hits the guy that's standing up in a 50 caliber turret that's the guy that's gonna die and mark was you know he was a new guy so he's he's in that lead turret 50 cal and he never asked to get rotated out and I remember he's a very like to say very he was extremely charismatic funny gregarious uh comedian and you know we got all kinds of stories about Mark but one of them you know we were in Vegas and we're all gambling and like I come down from my hotel room and like I see Mark across the across the he's playing Blackjack you know he sees me he goes hey sir when are the new Cadillacs coming out like he's just lighting up everybody um just having a fantastic time but I remember one night you know he's getting ready to roll out and if I wasn't going out with the platoons I'd like go out you know like see the guys off get my hand salute as they're leaving and I'm like how you feeling tomorrow how you doing Mark you're good to go and he's like feeling lucky sir you know like that was his attitude and he's a guy that's going to drive by that vehicle graveyard drive right out in that City and he's going to do it the next day and the day after that and the day after that so and and like I said that's what the army guys are doing that's what the Marine Corps guys are doing they're doing it and so as much as the mythology around basic SEAL training goes um to me that's that that that experience in combat and what guys do is infinitely harder and infinitely more important um now all that being said basic SEAL training is is the is a very strange laboratory for human beings it is a very strange laboratory for human beings and it's a it's it's kind of crazy the way it works it's very it's it's obviously extremely difficult but there's no like you I wouldn't put money you could put odds on somebody making it through you know like hey that guy seems like it's gonna be good to go but I wouldn't put a bunch of money on it right and I wouldn't take like a hundred percent I would never take 100 bet on anybody because there's no one that's 100 gonna make it through that training and there's there's just random you know some people say it's well it's because of your why there's people that make it through SEAL training because their ex-girlfriend said they couldn't make it there's some other guy that makes it through because they promised God that they would make it there's some other guy that made it through because you know their dad said they could have there's like every one of these examples you can come up with and and it's good enough for some random dude to make it through and it doesn't matter what your pedigree is doesn't matter where you're from there's guys from Iowa there's guys from Florida there's guys from wherever that make it and there's guys from Iowa and there's guys from Florida and there's guys from wherever that don't make it guys from farms guys from silver spoon in their mouth and it you just can't predict it and I I mean it has to have something to do with the fact that how bad you actually want to do it that's it's it's a strange thing and I wouldn't you know I wouldn't try and you know if I was in the world if I didn't do that training I wouldn't be trying to figure out if I could make it or not because you don't know you don't know it's a very strange thing and it's and it's so uh uh mythical almost right now right it's mythical that how hard it is and this is not too many people make it through man 15 Yeah Yeah Yeah from all the folks that I've talked to are there or gone through been instructors there some we both know um seemed that that 15 number is unlikely to change as long as they keep the the process the same it just seems about 15 people seem to have something in them that can perhaps grow during that training but that this it is being identified and selected for rather than somehow being built up across at least that phase of the early phases of training and then at some point they build on that capacity and you know this gets to this really somewhat controversial issue frankly like are people wired differently and listen I started off in neural development and I'll tell you that there are some Universal properties of neural development in all surviving humans like that you're going to breathe without having to think about it your heart's going to be without having to think about it but beyond that there's a lot of variation in natural levels of dopamine and serotonin um uh there's nature plays a powerful role and nurture and what's interesting though is we can't always predict from parents what nature is going to do recently we had someone on the podcast I'm excited for you to listen to it if uh perhaps you will if I send it to you is a guy who talks about inheritable acquired traits you don't expect that because you work out that your grandkids will be more muscular and have better endurance but there's actually some evidence that that may be the case and you go well how could that be we got two kinds of cells in your body it turns out you have what are called somatic cells which are all of them you have the germ cells which are your sperm and your wife's eggs well why wouldn't the DNA of the sperm cells in the egg cells be modifiable by experience if all the other cells are and it turns out there's some evidence that maybe it's not the DNA but the RNA are think about that that means that whether and we've known this that people that have been in a famine several Generations later their implications for blood sugar regulation and they're great grandkids so the idea that experience and acquired traits can change us is actually has some validity and uh you know and it and this gets into really complicated things to people oh this is like the giraffe that had to like crane its neck and then give birth to longer and extra halves and it's like well not exactly but also not entirely untrue either so I love the idea that there are inherited traits and that there are that nature and nurture play a role but that hard work may actually transmit across Generations yeah there's in Seal training you know you have kids that come through that they call legacies which means that they have a dad I think a dad brother whatever and they do have a better chance of making it but it's not a guaranteed chance at all and you know my personal opinion is like I think a legacy kid would have a better chance of making it just due to the Thanksgiving dinner that you're gonna have to go through for the rest of your life with your family if you don't yeah if you're even invited which you might be on your own uh but yeah that's so there's maybe there's something to that as well but I think that's just more the the pressure that someone must feel like hey there's no way I'm gonna be allowed back in my home if I don't make it through this training so I'm gonna have to just go ahead and suck it up but not everyone makes it and um it's it's a bummer when that when that does occur well for people who are not thinking about going through SEAL training or who missed the opportunity or who are not interested in that for whatever reason do you think there's value to doing things each day that suck a little bit or from time to time doing something that's you know puts one into a state of deliberate uh discomfort 100 yeah I mean 100 I mean even in order to improve yourself you gotta you gotta impose some discipline on yourself right if if you want to get stronger you've got to do things that require strength if you want to be tougher you got to do things that require you to be tougher I think that's pretty straightforward does that mean doing things that are not pleasurable so for instance um you know I've done some long podcasts and uh a few weeks ago I did a series we were doing a series with um Andy Galpin all about exercise and exercise science and we did six podcasts in that week the most I've ever done which made doing four or five the next week not so bad but I loved every second of it and I love every second of podcasting and so it didn't suck but it built up a greater capacity I guess I'm asking specifically about things that really feel like a splinter is there any value to that um because I have to say there are some people I know some of them are former team our team guys I guess you don't say former team guys they were um out they're out of the teams now but they're Team guys forever who seem to not be rattled by little things those guys in particular they they don't seem to be rattled by little things and then I know people that you know they um they get the wrong size coffee at a coffee shop and they dissolve into a puddle of tears right so there does seem to be something to this whole like mental resilience thing and flexibility thing um and I I try and do something that's uncomfortable um to me about once a week something I really don't like um it doesn't matter what that is but I try and do something that's kind of like unpleasant um or do something in a way that's unpleasant I guess the example will be getting into the cold water the first thing in the morning and making that decision from under the blankets is a rough one for me um but then it gets easier and then you wonder is it still serving the purpose that it's building me up so should people seek truly like bad experiences provided that they're done in a safe way yeah yeah I I think that you're gonna just like you would develop your legs by doing squats and you would develop your back by doing pull-ups I think you would develop your resiliency by doing repetitions of things that require you to be tougher

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Id: bUQnydhZhqg

Length: 14min 47sec (887 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 05 2023