Jocko Podcast 150 w/ Dave Hall and Josh Hall: Drafted to Vietnam, Surfing and Surfboards

this is Jocko podcast number 150 with echo Charles and me Jocko Willing good evening echo good evening and who are the young men we are asking to go into action against such solid odds you've met them you know they are the best we have but they are not McNamara's sons or Bundy's I doubt they are yours and they know they know they are at the end of the pipeline that no one cares they know and that right there is an anonymous quote from a general in Vietnam to correspondent war correspondent named Arthur Haley who is actually himself a decorated tank commander in world war ii who enlisted in the army and there's a key word i said there you know a volunteer who voluntarily enlisted in the army in world war ii and in Vietnam in the Vietnam War you hear a lot about the draftees in Vietnam and in fact 25% of the forces that fought in Vietnam were draftees and draftees accounted for 30% of the deaths in Vietnam now on this podcast we've heard from a bunch of those volunteers a bunch of those career soldiers Marines that fought in Vietnam but tonight we're honored to have as someone on the podcasts that was not necessarily a V of a volunteer that was not necessarily looking to be in the military for a career but who nonetheless stepped up and did his job for our country and once he served his time he came home and lived his life and he had a son and his son is also joined us on the podcast - his son took a different route he was guided by his dad but he was guided not to war but to the water so we have tonight Dave Hall Vietnam veteran tanker who's also the father of Josh Hall who's a surfer a craftsman a surfboard shaper and an entrepreneur and I think we're looking forward to this at least I am so welcome to the show both of you thanks for coming on Josh Dave awesome to have this honor yeah thanks for coming out here from Hawaii I I know you know most people don't want to leave Hawaii no and they're there I'm glad we were able to drag you out here no it was a burden on me but I love to see my son awesome awesome job slamming on thank you John the stoked I know we've been seeing each other in the water for a while and at contests and whatnot so it's good we linked up and and have this opportunity to come on and talk about talk about some of my favorite things war and surfing so Dave we got to start with you and you know we always medaka try and take it back to the beginning and just kind of what your background was and you know where you came from I know what you were born in uh born in Boston Massachusetts and what would your dad do my dad was a my dad did many things you know world - he's a pilot and b-17 over in England and so that's one that just slipped under the radar yeah your dad was a b-17 pilot World War two yeah and b-24s and he always wanted to be a fighter pilot and he tried to go to the Pacific that never happened I know so anyways married my mom and then we ended up living in Boston for a while I mean we travel around the country because he was still in the service Air Force lived in Texas and lived in Colorado lived and was he was he a career army guy Army Air Force guy for yes for a little while yeah I don't know exactly when he got out when he did get out he started flying for United Airlines I'm sorry and I know in the fifties and stuff you wouldn't want to I don't think he went to Korea I I'm lost right now so I but yeah he he he did a multitude of things he was a teacher a lawyer a farmer he farmed Nebraska he was born in Nebraska had we had a big ranch back there and he taught school in Nebraska and then we had been living in Santa Ana until I was nine years old I went to visit my grandfather in Nebraska and then that summer at the end of the summer my folks ended up coming out with all the kids in the whole house he decided not to fly for United Airlines anymore and become a farmer again so yeah that was kind of different so anyways that's yeah like I said I lived in a lot of different states and stuff because during this because of the service but Nebraska was kind of like my favorite place you know from there now you sir you did you work on the farm oh yes because every kid that goes up on a farm it's like slave labor exactly oh absolutely ten hours in the field plow and you know we had a cow we had to milk every day you know we called her 6 o'clock 6 o'clock in the morning 6 o'clock at night and a few other cattlemen we had pigs and I raised three hundred chickens and you know of course you know I had my brother and sisters and stuff were there too they they all helped out and this is when you're what like 10 11 12 eleven yeah I'm gonna back there tan and my was back there for like four three summers you know so I was 12 I think we ended up moving back to Connecticut and then how long were you out there for a year in Connecticut and then I then my dad he bought a business here in San Diego okay halt halt personnel and so we moved back out here and he found a place and we lived out in Spring Valley and he worked downtown has an office down there so yeah it was kind of different and something you spend your high school years here here in San Diego yeah I started ninth grade in San Diego in time out McGill high school and then I graduated and went to I was going to college for a while and then dropped it did you did you start surfing in high school actually when we live in San Anna and so I didn't surf we we had mats know me a mad mats up there my mom oh yeah so you know I was young then and we'd always go down to take me everyday you know down me and the kids and and to look in the beach okay down there China Cove down there and yeah broke my eardrum down there matter of fact yeah but anybody's yeah and then I started surfing you know tenth grade ninth grade and stuff but yeah we when we first came out here and stuff I'd loved I thought we were going to move to the beach when we stayed at the San Diego motel right down there on the cross from in and out you know yeah all right and we stayed there until my dad found a house there I live in you know so you know I go to the beach then you don't walk to the beach oh yeah it was fun that's what everyone thinks well people that don't live in California think all of California is like Baywatch that's the I realize that there's you know massive I mean obviously there's a massive swath of land but Agriculture's huge you know you'd go up the you just drive by farm after farm after farm after farm so much in California's format and but people think everything in California is just they watch it's not closed sometimes but then you sir you but you went to high school here and you you did surf but you you weren't able to get to the water that much mmm quite a bit actually yeah I had that I had a my dad bought me a 53 Chevy 54 Chevy two-door and stuff so I ripped out the backseat so I get my boards in there and then I got my sister's car if he had a station wagon and was a 57 Ford two-door deluxe you know I was you know the whole thing that was a surf wagon oh yeah you know so me and the boys you know so I was wrong you actually got to the water a lot yeah yeah yeah quite a bit and you did you you wrestled you uh in high school yeah a little bit of wrestling I was mostly on the I was on the swim team I'd oval and my fault you know somebody said Nick can anybody do the butterfly thing oh yeah I can you know early so you're the butterfly guy and then so during this time period were you paying attention I mean obviously dad wasn't he was you know out of the military but you had that connection to the military were you paying attention in those years because now we're talking this is like the mid-60s are you paying attention to what's happening Vietnam you're just you're focused on just yeah just life is right now right then I was a kid but not that I couldn't really recall no no it wasn't really on my radar yeah it and then you graduate your figure you're gonna go to college for a bit yeah well we went to Grossman junior college what'd you graduate high school 66 okay yeah oh yeah so Vietnam was still relatively yeah wasn't yeah you know I mean they started when we Hydra the bow the I drank Valley was in 1965 and that was kind of like the big first spike in activity when I don't want to say that but it was definitely a highlight started hitting the news more and that was in 65 so you graduated 66 yeah I mean there was talk you know I read a draft in the draft and stuff like that but I wasn't like you know like I said it wasn't I didn't really pay touched yeah yeah yeah surfing can distract you from all kinds of the world's brightest which is a good thing so then senior role to Grossmont college you're there yeah and now are you are you starting to become more aware of the draft at this point mmm no no because I iced know skeet a lot so you know there's a lot of activity and I belong to the Ski Club there at Grossmont and you know so we'd go to Squaw Valley heaven lean and in ski a lot so no I still don't really think about it I didn't think about it till I saw my mom pull envelope up you know and she said hey what would you react to that I can't go to Milan yeah so we hit you that it was that unexpected for you when you got that when you got your draft notice yeah yeah did you know any other guys that have been drafted oh yeah the class before me and stuff the only don't like Jim Tomlinson a great guy he was 25th Infantry over there and stuff they came back with all the board stories so he I take that back I was aware of it you know because all these guys are coming back and talking about it but I never thought I know me I didn't worry about go on so yeah so then when you got it what was your reaction when you got it I don't know I'm gonna go I guess ya know it was either that you know or run and hide and I thought well you know if we make it the Mosel on it's not a bad place to be I know if I could survive there so yeah it was a little bit scary but you know I'm I always look forward to things you know I mean I didn't look forward to going over there but I mean it's kind of different I know why not try so what was the shock to your system like you this going from the surfing skiing in Mazatlan life checking into boot camp well you had to go through the process of getting you know to go up to the draft board now lay Ashley did that and then came back and then had to go on second time for something and then that was when we ended up getting on a bus and going to Fort Ord and it was like whoa just like you're locked in you know you don't know place to go and now sit now this is 68 so now we're talking I mean it's things have inflamed in Vietnam and it's I mean there's a lot of casualties happening and you know free from your perspective you must've been thinking hey you might not have been thinking about it as much before but all of a sudden you're wearing a uniform and there's people coming home you know people getting killed every day over the lines yeah yeah and friends that came home or didn't go home you know they told me about it you know other friends and stuff but I mean it was like of course once you get in basic and stuff they got they got you know they pretty much got you and you go along with the program or they make you go along with the program in the end up going along with the program did you see guys that were you know that that showed up that realized what they got into and would act crazy or you know no yeah yeah you had all all sorts of people one thing about the draft you had every walk of life I mean you have every walk of life and military anyways you know they come from all over but the draft picks them out of the bushes you know I mean it's like you know you got big guys small guys you got older guys now I was lucky because a little bit older and most of the guys like when I was in Vietnam were a lot younger than I was I mean other than I mean the guys that were with me and by older you were how I was 21 yeah old man you know whenever I go down to Coronado and I see that the seals the DC and and you know I'll be with my wife will go to Coronado we'll see some students on the beach or whatever then you can't help my wife can't help herself from saying they look so young they look like little kids yeah that's the same with me when I was 19 you know that's where that's where I was so yeah when you're 19 years old when you're 18 years old and you're looking at someone that's 21 yeah they're like the oldest person in yeah yeah of course all the other Kadri and suffer a lot older you know what and and did you did you have any choice in what your MOS was gonna be yes good question no we made it big basic training sergeant Patterson was my drill instructor great guy and then towards the end they came out and they had this chart the everybody's name on it 11 11 probable 11 Bravo 11 Bravo and they saw me and Bob Jigme was the lead an echo and we asked one of the sergeants is walking hi what's eleven echo what is that I know cuz we need eleven Bravo's infantry because all you're gonna be tanker oh cool don't drive trucks you know I farm background tractor or whatever you know because no because I figure a tanker truck yeah in my mind you know I was always shoots and they go no you own the tank yeah so in that respect I go okay fine and only two of us I don't like 210 guys or something had 11 echo the common God went to the APC mmm schools you know I forgot what they call it there was an 11 echo CA or something like that I don't know would would like you talked about the guys that are putting you through basic these guys were guys coming back from Vietnam was the tone of basic training like hey you guys are going to Vietnam you need to be ready yes you had to yeah we knew her something's gonna happen yeah and you know like towards the end of basic training and stuff they sent us to see this film and it was John Wayne movie what was the name of I don't know you're good at that I was Jimmy was here yeah John Wayne movie you guys never saw it I'm sure I was in Vietnam is general and oh I don't know good guy anyways I think but that's what they did they sent a senator to see a movie it was you know we got to go have a couple of beers and go see the movie and then then back and then after that we came home I know after basic training so that that movie was their way of kind of letting you know what's gonna kind of happen to you yeah did they was it did you feel like the training that you they put you through so I mean obviously boot camp is boot camp and you're gonna get yelled at you're gonna do push-ups when you got done with boot camp and they were putting you through today the army they go through the AIT yeah so did you go through something like AIT I did I went through a a key in Fort Knox that's where the tank school is and then they put me through NCO school which is because they need a lot of NCOs I guess you know so you get it like meritoriously advanced to become an NCO or sorry it's hard to say I guess no he's just whatever your aptitude is to do this so was was that advanced school that they put you through was that was it good training were you know excellent training yeah yeah so you were pushed hard they were you know teaching you use all the weapons systems teaching you how to react in firefights and all that stuff right and then you know just mentally you know prepare yourself for what's going on I mean radio operations you know Cabana controls and things like that so these things I didn't I had no idea what I was doing but yeah it worked out pretty good no it's uh it's always interesting to hear the way they prepare guys for combat yeah because we we went and became like ephors and then and then once you graduated you're a t5 actually you're sergeant Riley yeah and then after you graduate from that school I started training on tanks I get different different guys and lucky me I got the National Guard guys from California on my tank which was kind of you know they said well you're from California training these guys I said okay well I'll do it pretty good guys and then you come home and then they give you leave after you get done with all that yeah we went through what was it some more advanced training and stuff I anyways I felt it I fell asleep in class one day you know and we were getting in it it's getting towards like Christmastime and stuff everybody's gonna get to go home and this one lieutenant I guess because I I just nodded off I mean we've been on this this drill boom boom boom you know so you went through one of his classes and and I not heard ah and the guy goes wrong sorry you're not gonna go home and get out of my class so I went back and I talked to my sergeant major and then he went and talked to some colonel and then they went I guess it went all the way battalion or something like that and they said no he's gonna go home he finish the class and so they let me back in the class and I finished it up and it was kind of like well good I get to go home for Christmas and was that Christmas your pre deployment leave was it um or was that just no just it was a two-week BIRT two-week break and then I came home that's in February or March I know I was home for my birthday it's kind of hard for me right I'm not sure but I know I left here like April 15th I think it was that was to go to Vietnam yeah yeah it was a almost missed a flight so it was great PSA flight out of San Diego yeah so they held the plane for me okay were you uh you came home was that what was the mood like when you were going over to Vietnam you're saying goodbye to your family and you're saying goodbye to your mom and and yeah that was that was uh we had a pretty good party you know one night and my next-door neighbor had this beautiful rose gardens and his whole garden stuff you know there's guys sleeping out there and went through a couple kegs and you know so it turned out pretty good and so yeah there was a little bit of moments you know where you were kind of a little anxious and stuff you know I talked to my mom and she was a Army nurse you know so she kind of knew what was going on I bet that had to be way harder on your mom that was on you yeah I didn't know that yeah I mean I I don't know when I was young and even when I was older I was always like hey you know we're kind of it indestructible and especially when you're young I'm sure you're like hey I'm gonna go over there we're gonna kick ass that's what's gonna happen and it can be a little uh but but for especially if your mom was an Army nurse yeah and so she's seen all kinds of stuff yeah she took care of a lot of wounded soldiers yeah so that had to be way harder for her and it's always I think always harder phoebus families didn't show it though you know you know she gave me a little book sorry it's all right it's all right man you still have the book I do someplace all it was was a little saying this is out of Psalms and it says be part of the answer or not the problem yeah you know what I kept that with me well that's that's um that's an unbelievable advice right there yeah it's great advice for any situation yeah sorry no it's all good it's all good so when you tsetse fly the the commercial plane over to Vietnam I was a chartered plane no it was it was the commercial it was a I didn't know what Airlines it was yeah but it was a commercial plane and was there a bunch of other guys going to Vietnam on it I was all Vietnam yeah yeah we flew from Frisco or Travis or whatever it is up there and Japan landed in them Sokka Japan and pilot was really nice he went around Mount Fuji and stuff for it's on both sides of the plane and and then from there we went to Thomas annuity Air Base and again I mean just to point out to everyone this is now this is 1960 is it 69 yet no 68 no it is 69 okay okay this is full 69 the height of the war in Vietnam yeah and you know it's one height yeah every vet every battle is an individual's battle yeah you've been there yeah yeah well I I haven't I haven't been in the height of the Vietnam War or any of the heights yeah no no I know and and your attitude when you show up you get there what was that welcome to Vietnam you were showing me a picture earlier and you're like hey this is me I just got there do you guys have kind of sit there and Bob looks like you're getting some kind of an in brief like hey here's what's going on it was kind of it was kind of strange you know first thing you'd land on the ground and such as wording my weapon because you're obviously in the foreign country and in a hostile country too and they go I don't worry about it you know okay so then they they after that that little gathering there and they said okay everybody jump on these you know actually Bob and I got split up he won't with another company I won't miss the company out I went with and it was kind of like see ya and so these three was on back in the Deuce and a half and then we went to a it was the name it I should get the name of the places right anyways it was a a other staging area and you know you're driving through these villages and stuff and it's like whoa we still remember what don't have a weapon you got one guy up there you know out of the least after 'its and in the deuce and a house and stuff he needs up there where the m16 and stuff you know it's kind of like where's ours you know and so you go into a staging area and and you spend a couple weeks there and they take you through what they called snake training and what it is is it gets you familiar with the area and you know the ants and the swamps and you know the water and the rain and and on all this and they they they just introduced us to a lot of different things you know it was interesting because I was a buck sergeant this one class one class one day they're all sitting on the bleachers all right and then some lieutenant or captain or something says once you sit here and and just monitor the radio and no I said yeah that's sure that day the bleachers collapsed with all the guys on and they had broken legs and arms and it was terrible now I'm strong pull luck how long was it before when he got done with snake training oh yeah and then they how long was it before you actually went the field and connected with your unit just like two leagues you know we gonna have two weeks something like that and then I get up to a an area called an LOC it was at the top of the highway 13 and I asked the First Sergeant I I asked him I said well how many tanks do we have he goes we don't have any tanks I know old mama tank commander he goes now don't worry about it because something out there it's got a turret on and gone out front and eyes alone okay and then I got introduced to the flame track oh yeah and that's a is that a modified one one three mm-hmm yeah yeah 180 gallons and a pontoon your legs yeah so it was a it was different and in the hindsight you know I'm kind of glad I wasn't on a tank because that's where my friend Bob he was only the in country three weeks and got hit you know I mean put the new guy in the lead tank you know don't take an RPG through the cupola and you got shrapnel eggs and stuff and got sent home I mean I broke I wrote in country to him numerous times I'm doing I never get back and never got back and finally his mom said model no Bob's in Washington and I'm recovering from wounds yeah the when you when you showed up there and you know you start you start meeting your your leadership what were they like were uh that's sergeant Sutherland he's e6 he was part of the the flame to to and I don't know the you know and read be grad like we call him he's from I think was from Virginia or something like that he was actually the guy that taught me how to use the flame pack because there's a chemical MOS I didn't know anything about napalm or anything like that so there's a learning process so I rode as a gunner on the track for I don't tell when I first firefight and stuff and I was a sight gun around that one and so we learned and it was really it was kind of nice you know you go out and the first few weeks I was there and stuff it was like the country's beautiful don't get me wrong and we were the highlands you know so it was it was pretty cool and so we were going in these villages and we take the medics in there and they'd help the kids out and whoever needed help and stuff you know and the village chief divided us off the track and go in and have both tea with them and stuff in his little dirt hut and you know so it was there's interesting the mountain yard people oh yeah I'm not yards over there nice people and I don't think they I didn't today they didn't like the view North Vietnamese I don't think it like this either but then we didn't get along with us good and so that was fun I know you did we did a bunch of different like types of missions while you were there like in terms of you did let's just ask you like so what are the what are the various types of missions that you guys were doing so one was what you just talked about you're going out into the villages right you're making friends you're handing out you know medical supplies yeah that we put a lot of Road security and stuff and you know that was my first firefight we went out to help some convoy of tanker trucks fuel trucks an actual tax and they'd get an ambush and stuff so we went out and you know you try to suppress that or we were chasing these guys down you know so that's your first that's your first fire fighters firefight how'd you take that and the reason I ask this is because we get a lot of guys that are in the military or they're going into military and I will I always ask people what were you thinking in your first firefight so that way when they're in that situation they have another little perspective of how to think about it so that because it's hard to get somebody prepared for that because everyone takes it a little bit differently oh absolutely so I think the more different perspectives someone can hear the better it is for him right some so we were chasing these guys I don't know how many they were you know through the after this they ambushed the the convoy and stuff we were chasing them down through the jungle and pretty thick in the jungle stuff it it's you know high brush and trees and so we broke out and they tried to keep the flame track kind of in the center of things so it kind of semi protected and whatever but ended I ended up on the flank on the left flank them came out of the jungle you know could you get in there you get lost and you're looking around and the tracks could power through the jungle yeah because there's a lot of tree and high brush right okay you know hit high or you know track high brush and a lot of trees we broke out another opening then I was on the flank and we're looking across and it was a big rice paddy and there's another section I jungle beyond and bread and I kind of look at each other we're going oh they couldn't made across there that fast and just like that we turned the track back towards the jungle front an RPG hit my track right in the ass and and then a couple guys got blown off the top red was still on the fifty I was on the 60 and it's just instant training jumps in you know I saw the three guys that shot the RPG you know and just trading a 50 at under 60 on him and red tractor 50 over there and and then by that time everybody else had turned back towards the jungle and start leveling it the recon outfit that I ran with we had like five tracks each track had three 50s on it one of them have at one time had a 106 you track had three 50s on the right well that's yeah so my track the track I was on have 152 60s off off either side or 160 off either side so it would be like the six tracks would be like a line company opening fire you know a line company was you know 18 tracks or whatever I don't know how many tracks that were in the line time but we had a lot of firepower a lot of firepower and so did you feel like like you said the training kicked in you saw what was going on exactly what was going on and stuff when we got hit and stuff and and then you know I ripped the 60 out of the mount and jumped off the back and still firing it you know towards the guys and stuff so yeah did you use your flamethrower oh yeah yeah red shot yeah just just just the encompass you know he shot way up over the top of the jungle and big circle just to make sure yeah so that's a scary weapon right there yeah it is yeah it's devastating but a man's always been afraid of fire yeah there's a there's a definite instinct with that no doubt about it yeah now would you guys would you guys return back to a base when you guys got done with these operations so you'd come back to a base and yeah we had a base camp I had my own little you know year underground bunker and stuff you know because we took a lot of our jewelry at night and you know the rocket fire and everything so we had a little underground bunkers and that was that was an luck was a good place and well I was the only place I knew at the time so it had to be a good place we just has a good place good in terms of the fact that you had it built up enough there were some creature comforts there well I know whole lotta creature comforts punker yeah that was comfortable yeah yeah so you know and then we a couple times we go out and you clear areas a little bit further away from the perimeter and everything you know so and then town and lock itself was right next door to us Wow so as we go through that village you know every day and what was the reaction from the folks that lived the local populace that lived in and along with those modern yards you know I don't know I don't think they were but I could be wrong you know Coffee hut net semi friendly we didn't get in contact on too much no we would we were ready at that point after that that first firefight I mean there was there was a multitude other ones how long how long into how long had you been on the ground before he got in that first firefight three weeks so a couple weeks us yeah landed on that yeah it landed the 15th and then I think it was May 2nd in April April 15th I landed in May 2nd and then I I know some of the notes that you sent over was like you basically after that first one it was just yeah that's just the way it was that was just life it was life afterwards and how would you guys would you guys take casualties often when you when you get engagements because you had you know armor it it was your sir was your casualty rate lower you think than the regular definitely definitely yeah you're a lot better off and a lot of folks that were on the ground and stuff so one thing about if you take it casually they're out of the field pretty fast so you're busy doing this you know and Jimmy's gone or Johnny's gone or you know you don't know until you get back to base camp whether you made it or not so yeah they were pretty I was thinking about that the other night you know because I was going yeah I don't really remember I mean I've seen a lot of guys get hit they don't we were doing joint operations or something like that not necessarily my guys but I never lost anybody off my track well and the other tracks maybe maybe one maybe two it was very low and how much was the enemy using mines on your tracks and how effective were they they're pretty effective depending on where you were I mean we had minesweepers and stuff through the sweep 13 highway 13 you know all depend on which fire base a rat and and they would sweeping we didn't my track not my track but the track I had and then I got a new one I'd given a friend of mine Doug dodge and he hit a mine actually the day I gave it to him he went out of a submission he had the other the other flame drag and what did he did no just blew the track off you know I wasn't as I'm sitting here trying to sell 40 pound or something like that 34 yeah as I'm sitting there trying to think about because the the enemy in Iraq which is which is where I was yeah they were really good with IEDs and they would take out vehicles not just Humvees they they take out Humvees they take out tanks tanks and Bradley's and and even they even the mine-resistant vehicles they would take those things out they put these big bombs but how often were you guys I'm thinking in my own head that the reason is because we were on roads and so we were in channelized areas you're going through a city you're gonna go down the road there's no you can't drive through the building right and so it sounds like if you guys were we're just driving through the jungle driving through the rice paddies do you not do that you didn't have to be in a channelized area so there was it would be harder for the enemy to put the bombs in to put the mines in the right place because they couldn't predict as well where you were gonna be right a lot of the roads and stuff were we did run the roads and in some areas and stuff I mean I saw m60 tank you know he had a 500 pounder who around detonated you know split in half like that sure went off like this you know two guys live but you know it's pretty devastating and that was in front of us in front of our column but yeah it's and then I saw a it was a m47 tank we called it a duster and had 40 millimeter pom-pom guns on the side of it was a mean machine you know and he pulled out of our our base camp down in under 3 and before they swept the roads and he was he was haulin ass and he didn't get hurt or anything blew the tracks off but he had a mine so you know that's another thing that might have been just the technological advances for the insurgents in Iraq you know they had they had radio command detonated so you didn't have to run wire so it was easier for them to to put mines out there yeah we we ran into a lot of places like bunker systems stuff they had wires and you know for Delta for communications and things you know but yeah the the mines I was in a situation where two tracks in front of me we take this another firefight we created and so if we had to we had the if I'm jumping around let me know something yeah it's all good we had I guess they were the elite force of the South Vietnamese a tiger group or whatever they were they kind of the commandos and stuff they threw him all on our tracks and so we went in this one area and we got bushed and there was nothing but RPGs flying through the air and you know but she can gunfire and stuff and we suppress that but all these guys all the tiger if they jumped off the track we're gonna no no no no don't jump off you know we're gonna move you know we keep capability moved back and then read in advance you know I mean you got to think about that but they just jumped off and they got in cross fires and it's shooting themselves and but anyways he talked about the the mines we had captured this this one kid and he was on the captain's track and so we were advancing we were moving through past the area where the bunkers were and the captain's track you to mine and we're just in columns captain's tracks here that we got the ammunition tracks the second one then my track and so he hit a mine blew the guy off and he's sitting on the side and stuff you know and I don't anyways so the track in front of me were going oh shit where they suckered us into a minefield of what they did because they had these mines behind the bunker system and we so we got in there the track in front of me all he did was traverse just a little bit like that BAM went off so I had a guy I got down off the track and ground got in my track through its tracks you know cuz we all went through a call and stuff but yeah it was pretty hairy so I guess I was wrong the mines were a big day yeah yeah yeah now that I think about it yeah yeah cuz I think yeah the vast majority of the casualties in in Iraq were from you know from IEDs remote side bombs because they're they just they were good at it and then they yeah it's a it's a weapon that you can you can execute and scary I don't see I guess man I that was that was what I thought was scarier than when I went through so yeah for sure that's the thing that there's no that there's very limited amount you can do to prevent it now we did everything we could and sure actually my guys never hit a mine in never had an IE d in in Ramadi and that was just it was amazing you know there's a lot of luck sure well you know that's the grace of God look at for us you know but you know we also were very proactive in how we planned to do you know our missions we would we would go after right after the minesweeping team would dry would go clear we go down immediately after them and that way and then we'd get to where we want to be and if we had to wait a couple hours that'd be fine we'd win but we we would try and mitigate that risks to the best of our ability because the mines were or such a big threat and it's one of those things that yeah what once you can I think that's what that's what that's what scares people the most because you have so little control over nothing it's like okay if it happens you're you could do everything right you could follow the minesweeper minesweeper doesn't see everything you know and you can follow the minesweeper and you can still get blown up off side of the road yeah look that's it's just it's a definitely a scary thing and you you talked about the South Vietnamese guys getting in a you know shooting themselves yeah which is I believe that's gonna happen a lot less when you're an armor because obviously it's pretty clear it's pretty that's a lot easier to identify hey that's a friendly because they're in a113 like we wear as a time yeah and we did have a situation it wasn't it wasn't us but it happened and that's I usually use this in it as an example of how easy blue-on-blue you know a friendly fire incident can happen it happened in Ramadi where a Humvee shot at another Humvee which again the the the insurgents did not have Humvees at all right and to think of what the mindset is of a kid to look and see another you know see movement that's a Humvee and take it take some fire some shots at it that shows you how nervous guys get and how perception at night is different and how your mind starts playing tricks on you and you the things are confusing and it can get pretty mental just confusing it's the fog of war yeah at night times the kind of you know usually we hunker down at night you want me to set out your your trip flares and claymores and and all that and one night we did that and one of those trip flares went off and we thought everybody's back in base camp they were back with us you know and we started firing and they these guys hunkered down behind a tree and they yelled and they go oh it's us you know it's like oh okay I mean the flare went off I mean yes you need to brief people lesson learned when I was running a training I always tried to make it I would I would inject all that confusion because I wanted the guys to have friendly fire incidents while they're in training so they recognize what the things that the type of things that caused them yeah you know we heard about it you know things like that but I mean I was never involved wasted two guys yeah absolutely that's that's a scary thing luckily your marksmanship was a little bit off that day right they caught us come by surprise what about the you know how about the the ArcLight the b-52 bombing I know you you were telling one story about that yeah that was kind of scary we were chasing these guys and we got a call over the radio says hey every stop that was was we're in a strike zone what do you mean a strike so he says yeah b-52s and they said everybody hunker down get behind the track you know it's common and boom boom and you could see I movie look up in the sky ours going whoa and there was like five b-52s and you could see all these five hundred thousand pounders works they're coming down and I didn't get off the track I mean it's a 16-ton track you know and what's it gonna do and sure enough boy you know a shock wave came and that tracks rattling around and we're going oh my god you know we saw the smoke first and then a shock wave hit you know it was pretty intense how long we're doing one of those missions lasts for an account how long with those bombs be going off for well in this particular time I you know it was like one plane after another and you know probably half hour wow you know 20 minutes something like that firm knowledge and I'm not sure you know then did period yeah it's not like yeah then you go in sweep the area and we found some guys in there you know and we saw one guy Jupiter was talking to him and stuff and he's bleeding from his nose and his ears and XY's and you know the guys be still alive and he said all he interprets all I could do is every time one hit he'd bounce in the air they come back down another one hit he bounced in the air kick so yeah that was some test we weren't that close yeah and I'm like he was yeah who would be coordinating that would you guys be coordinating those no we got no idea they're happy no it was in a certain area or something like that you know them you know obviously we got the word yeah my best friend I mean I don't get me wrong I mean the the b-52 strikes they did their thing and and we'd sweep areas you know we lost a track one time in a bomb crater you know that was overgrown and you know actually flipping inside and so like I said earlier he had known as a beautiful place you know if it wasn't for the war it'd be great you know there was a lot of bomb bomb craters the Cobra I gotta say is our pal I know you guys had cobras over there you have the what are the black of the Apache Apaches in fact yeah but the Cobra pilots and stuff they're pretty cool very cool we've had a cobra pilot on the podcasts have yeah yeah yeah and he got shot down Diddy yeah got shot down twice the second time you got captured oh yeah yeah yeah bravest guys I know they go into pretty close quarters yeah they come in they used to come right behind us we'd be in a firefight they come in you know 50 feet over your head and rockets fired it's pretty intense interestingly not only do we have still have Cobras but you know in in Ramadi we had one one three is the same vehicle that you guys drove we still had it and then used it primarily for cash the evacuation okay but still I was in the back of seven one one threes over in Ramadi what's that thirty years something later four years later yeah using the same vehicles and the same helicopters why not at work yeah my track didn't have much room inside because of the napalm tanks and stuff you know the other one on Three's they had the plenty of room they dazed I could only carry like 2,100 rounds of 50 on my track you know they had 6,000 rounds of their you know so how scary is it when you got your track filled with napalm I didn't think about it too much well you know you think that would have been back of my head a little bit it is it is you know and and I was like we used to play by their aunts in a while it's funny you should mention that because at the end of shooting it you could because the gas in it you have igniters and then you have raw gasoline and so I used to blow out these I don't know I might have a picture in there big billows of flame he used to roll out no because he's pop it and then then let off you know and we had a chemical guy come up to check out the tracks and stuff and I was tell him what I was doing he goes you did what I go yeah you played with it you know after after he empties and stuff you know you can roll out this big chiming big as this room and ball of fire and he goes don't ever do that again I go why because the pressure is because I didn't know that much about hydraulics and president I learned real quick it'll suck the flame back in you can't blow the tanks ah whoa so after that was like the track last for like if you've powered it on it's like 32 seconds of rod like that flying out and then you just get rid of the gas the air you know I think it's 2,700 psi or something like that yeah you virtually a bomb and they're ready to happen yeah like I said I think that would have been in the back of my mind a little bit and you took took an RPG yeah and how did that not do massive damage um well the tracks are aluminum yeah all right so once the RPG is ignited you have that rod that comes out and it just went through the back end then out so it did right through yeah right through so let's do it or something oh it detonated oh really yeah so yeah it's shrapnel and I can show you a picture of all ammo that I had in the back there's all blowing up and it scarred the tank and went out over the top of the track you know on the right hand right rear side and yeah we were just lucky yeah rather be lucky than good yeah yeah and and how about the how well did the detains work in the jungle as far as like once it was wet once the rainy season comes in tanks yeah or even the tribes leaves the mud and stuff was kind of tough yeah it was it was tough they took our neutral steer we didn't have that they just had the laterals and stuff to use because the neutral steer you got one track going one way and one track on the other and and they'd throw tracks pretty easy and then mud uh yeah so it was just right or left or back up and then so you you got you ended up getting wounded well how do you wound it I don't know there's shrapnel from from the RPG or we opened the breech at the 50 and a 50 Cal blew up in my face and you know because we were firing so many rounds and stuff and you get cook-offs you know just cooked off and we thought it was done it wasn't boom and blew me off the track so it wasn't it I went to the medic you know cuz I had a little got hit in the eye and I was it you know it wasn't like I got shot or so this relatively minor reality absolutely you know absolutely well we'll say we'll be thankful about that one yeah yeah yeah we're numb when you would stay out how long would you guys stay out in the field for as long as we did was probably about I'd say six weeks I thought you're gonna say like you know a few days three four days six weeks that's when we were moving and you guys would live out of your tracks you guys must gotten good at living out of your tracks yeah everything you own would you get at night would you sleep in the tracks mmm like I usually like it was raining or something like that I throw up on drove up over the over the track and tie it down the lived sleep on one of those stretchers to be carried and also how many guys were in a track wooden was assigned to you and your track we had most of the recon tracks had five guys on it he had a driver main gunner and two other guys had four guys and at first mine was like that and so he had four you know when you looked at it from like the big picture of what you guys were doing over there did you feel like hey we're making progress did you feel like hey we're just trying to get by did you did you get any strategic guidance from up the chain of command like hey this is our purpose for being here hmm that's a tough question each day was different we would have missions that we would go on and sometimes we get hit sometimes who wouldn't and those missions would just be going into an area and checking it out as far as accomplishing things you know it was an individual thing I mean it was not an individual like my myself or anything but I mean as a group you just you know go where they told you to and do what you could yeah it was you're talking about is there an end result that we saw or yeah I'm you know I guess I'm just asking especially from like a leadership perspective you know I always talk about the fact that if your frontline troops don't really know what they're doing or why they're doing it then eventually they're they don't see any purpose in what they're doing and that's where you start getting negative reactions you know whereas at least if you say hey look this is what we're trying to get done today we're trying to get this area cleared we're trying to this is going to contribute to this or something on that respect yes yeah but I man is a big picture like the whole country and stuff no I didn't we didn't think too much about that but it are individual things yeah okay we know there's a bunker complex over here we're gonna go into it yeah so you plan that strategically I mean you have people out there we have lips and stuff you know but alert us of certain areas hotspots or intelligence that come down say okay there's a thousand troops coming down through the Michelin or there's a thousand troops coming out of the highlands or there's a hundred troops over here you know that gets your your blood pumping because we're only six tracks well we had other we worked with his eleventh cabin and it's the first 28 or something that works with us and stuff we've worked with other companies too you know they would utilize us to go help them or we they would help us or you know we were that's when we were like a ready reactionary force you know you'd go out and a base gang we got hit you know in the middle of the night so you're up at two o'clock in the morning trying to gather all your troops and stuff out of their bunkers to run a road down to some base camp that's eventually going to get either overrun or you know they're blowing through the wire and and they're coming inside the compound and stuff so we go in and reinforced that that had to be a tough that tough kind of operation right there just out of a deconfliction between you know if you've got bad guys that are inside the wire oh that's a nasty that's a that's a scary thing yeah when you go into that what are your what's your thought process going into that mmm protect yourself and the guys around you that's all you could do you know I mean it's just try to figure out what you they are either coming in through you know use the Bangalore torpedoes and stuff blow holes in a wire and they they run on through and it's know then okay you're gonna concentrate in that area I know so few of them get through they get through I mean you have other infantry on the ground and stuff that they're dug in you know they're taking care of themselves so they kind of know what's going on it's kind of like you don't know everything that's going on but you can see around you what's happening so you try to defuse that did you guys you guys would come back to base and you'd be in bunkers you'd still be in the field you still be getting artillery you know rocked with artillery and the Rockets usually yeah rockets - oh great you guys would you ever get during your time there would they ever let you go back to somewhere where you could get a break and get some R&R they had any in yeah yeah our longer missions and stuff they they'd do a little stand down and you know for three days or something to drink yourself silly and swim in the pool and and where would you go for that you know I don't know exactly where it was it was someplace in countries I like down at like hey or just outside Saigon or so occasionally you give they give you a little breather yeah not much you know I mean I went to Thailand I went to Australia you know that was my big aren't ours and stuff you know but you know a few people go to Hawaii and I never you know I didn't know how to do that they'd come back and see their folks and stuff it was kind of scary yeah you mean scary from the fact that it's like you know what happens is he especially if you when we communicated with our people back here I was usually by letter tape you know I a cassette tape and they talk and we'd talk and send it in the mail and stuff you know and so the guys that left and went to see like their loved ones and stuff like you know Hawaiian stuff when they came back their heads not you know it's not there you know it's kind of like you know Johnny ain't got the gun yeah no I know it's it's it's not a good thing yeah people you know I've talked about that with a bunch of people but the fact that nowadays and there's there's positives and there's negatives to it all right there's positive internet because nowadays with the internet you can literally go face to face with your family every night that you're not in the field trying to jump on there and you can talk to him you can see him and I don't know I'm sure that's good for some people for me that's not a good thing for me you know when I was overseas I was overseas and I I would talk to my wife and kids like once a week I'd call him we talked for five minutes I'd ask him house you know the standard whatever questions they are how school how's everything going okay you know daddy loves you will will talk to you you know next week and I'll tell you even I was very emotionally detached from my family when I was overseas and it's hard to explain to people you know at that time I had three kids now I have four kids but you know I've told this story about the fact that my kids my wife said sent me an email it said oh can you take a picture of where you sleep at night cuz because the kids want to see where you sleep and I we had to know old Saddam palace and I had one of the rooms there and I had a plywood you know bed with a crappy you know mattress on it and the plywood bed you know had like a headboard on it right but it was just blank which is plywood sure and I took a picture of it on a little digital camera and I gonna send it to my wife and I looked at it and I realized it was that it was just there was nothing there so I opened up a folder that I had in a drawer and I took pictures of my wife and kids up and I and I hung them up uncle and then I took a picture and then I took them back down I put him back in the folder I put him back in the drawer because man I didn't want to see and again this sounds horrible to say but it's it's directly related to what you're saying is I didn't want to see my wife and my kids every single day every single morning when I woke up every single night before I went I knew I didn't want to see them just worrying about them because I got a job to do and the people that I'd really need to worry about this point or my guys and so I totally agree with that you know you you want to have some sort of emotional detachment from your family now can you go too far with this absolutely you can go too far with this and now all of a sudden you know you you you you get too detached and your family doesn't mean anything to you anymore and that's gonna be a problem as well so you but I think people gonna pay attention to that and find that that that medium that happy medium where if they are still enough touch but it's not it's not dragging them off on his yeah you don't want to let it happen no you don't be focused on all those other things yeah yeah it's on yeah you had your quiet time stuff you can listen to the cassette you know and at least hear the voice or you get a care package or something you know it's got some good cookies in it from home or something like that so yeah you take time in your bunker or whatever you know and relax and you do that but no as far as running down to the Mars station which I guess they had a Mars station somewhere and been become you know you could make a phone call back to the states I mean I never did but if you know a few people did just just by telephone but now today yeah like you say I mean it's like the only thing you see daddy on the big screen the other thing that I think it happens is is if you're worried about those things you you start to be less aggressive and in my opinion when you're less aggressive on the battlefield you'll end up in more trouble than if you're if you're if you're offensive yeah that's the guys that I ran with the pretty tight group I don't think as tight as you Navy SEALs guys are but you know always had a different story in life and and but as far as getting the job done that we were out to do when we did a pretty good job I think I'll tell you I've worked with all kinds of guys in the Army the Marine Corps and the camaraderie in any military unit especially once you're fighting hard it's it's all it's all awesome and it's all super tight yeah and I'm sure your guys going out on mission for six weeks living in a track it a bit less than that but I mean it's any times is a long time yeah spend the night there was just one time when we were traveling and we were having supplies hard to keep up with us and stuff you know so it was you know you know water you know the fuel and you end up you know bathing in bomb bomb craters and things like that so and then you don't know where you're going I know I I was a lousy map reader over there there's flat so no GPS no no no GPS but somebody knew where they were going yeah following but I mean it's really the technological advances are very very high yeah we got the guys will be looking at a map a moving map and it's shown exactly not only where you are but where all your other family guys are it's it's pretty impressive yeah so we had none of that so would you what would you have to pay attention to guys to make sure that I mean you know you're in that sustained combat making sure that guys weren't getting to a point where you know they they needed a break my drivers and stuff or I went through quite a few drivers I mean not that they just went on to do something else I mean that was kind of a starting point and they drove for me but you could tell I mean I had one driver he just jumped out of the house where fired out and stuff he jumped out of the hatch and get back into it I'm not driving it I'm I'm on my fifty you know and we're moving out of the area around cuz we're getting away from what was happening cuz we regroup and go back in and because I can't do it he's throwing up and you know he's scared yeah I'm scaring a lot of guys are scared you know and mostly the drivers because they're they're kind of confined you know and and and we're kind of freewheeling with the 50s and the 60s off the sides and stuff so yeah you jump down and say you know get back in the track I'm smack upside the head and you know you get in then you leave but then maybe you go back to base camp and say maybe that's not the guy for for this mission no are these missions you know so he'd go on and do something else well it's it's an interesting dynamic because I mean I guess maybe you're just a mellow guy cuz you're telling these stories about doing this and doing that and you're making it sound like you're going out to in-and-out burger to grab a burger and in reality you got just to just to put it in perspective some of the guys that you're with are are scared and throwing up from fear and so yeah it's horrible you you take care of those guys you know so you can get them back to base camp whatever you know and then or they overcome you know but what most bothering them Rose is a perfect example just came from Des Moines good nice young kid and stuff you know but you couldn't shoot somebody Monday and and you know so I grabbed the gun right out of his hand shot the guy so but that was just one incident and we ran into some pretty heavy duty guys and they took out a track right in front of me and and they were in a bunker and they were there doing some damage and Rose was disgusted he froze Rose you just can't do that wait so how'd you handle Rose after day he mellowed out a little bit and he ended up being a pretty good driver you know so I mean he got over that I think but again that driver moved on it's another kind of misconception in the in the military that if you're in a leadership position you're just gonna bark orders and you're gonna yell and people gonna listen to you because you and and you're just giving these beautiful examples of the fact that like okay you gotta have the understanding of the person you got a they're gonna people are gonna make mistakes people are gonna get scared and it doesn't matter how mad you yell at them it doesn't matter no yet won't help you need to develop a relationship with them you need to get to know them you need to understand them and then just because they you know you you learn something about if they have a shortfall like that like you said maybe I'm not gonna put him in that position again but where can I use this individual absolutely yeah and a lot of times people view the military you know especially especially when they see a full metal jacket where it's you know the drill sergeant yelling for 45 minutes in the movie or the the drill instructor movie Alan forth for 45 minutes in the movie they think that's what military leadership is and the classic examples that you're talking about of what real military leadership is like and it's really it's the same as all leadership but getting to know you're building a team figuring out what your mission is and you're not better than they are you know and and you know that was pointed out to me once I buy it by a colonel and you live with these guys he live on the track with him you know he living in in in the groups the sergeant's you know we will get together and we'll have meetings and stuff you know guys would be out on the tracks clean whatever they're doing we happen to be filling the sandbags one day got my shirt off filling sandbags you know my guys actually it was one of my drivers just holding the bag and filling this curl and he was in communications area he said sergeant I'll come here oh okay and so I went in and says hey he goes you see that shade over there oh yeah you'll go sit down in there and watch your guys fill sandbags by you know these guys are you know part of me he goes that doesn't matter and you just sit in the shade watch him do it and he says if you if you want to feel some bikes you know I can make it so you can do that and he was gonna take rank from me you know and I said one thing and I but I had to go I explained to my guy says look I'm sitting in the shade over here you guys have fillings and bags so I you know little things like that point point was because I was a sergeant and they were privates and they should be doing the work and you're not supposed to be you're supposed to be watching them do the work I'm going it was hard for me yeah but I'll tell you that you had better leadership instincts than your colonel at that point I guarantee it because that's that's what that's what make sure guys if you if your mentality is hey my guys will respect me if I sit over here in the shade when they're working that's just the wrong mentality they knew they knew yeah that's truly that's a again that's just a classic example of good leadership as opposed to what people think like a and all the sergeant's gonna be over here and watching you with his hands in his pockets while you guys do the work it's like no I'm actually gonna be here with you guys you know we're gonna build with it I'm part of the team and there are times of course there's times where you got to go to a meeting you know you gotta go and and your team now looks you like hey you go do your job and we're gonna do our job and at some point you're gonna hit when you have some spare time you'll come help us with our job and and you know what you're gonna come back at some point and say hey I need help with this plan I need help with getting this getting these maps put together getting these waypoints figured out or whatever they're gonna help you and it's much more about building the team than it is to than it is about I'm gonna tell you what to do and I'm gonna sit in the shade while you're filling sandbags a matter of fact our new book our new book we talked about the fact that you know Leif's platoon came back to a to a combat outpost and there was a bunch of army guys they were filling sandbags up but actually weren't filling the sandbags they were already filled but they were moving the sandbags up to the rooftop of some of the buildings on the combat outpost and Leif's like hey you know my guys are gonna help out and you know it's like the this it's a small little it's a small little you know indication of hey like you said we're not better than you we're here we're gonna bleed the same blood we're gonna sweat the same sweat and we're gonna fill in the same sandbags another topic that's come up some of the guys talking about Vietnam and believe it or not I think it's I think it's sixty percent roughly of the of the servicemembers that fought in World War two it was higher 60% were draftees in Vietnam it was 25% now there's a bunch of reasons why people focus more on Vietnam draftees rather than world war ii draftees because in world war ii the whole country was at war right the whole country was at war and it was everything from hey we're not gonna eat meat tonight we're not gonna get new tires because we need that for the troops so the whole countries are war Vietnam was different than I mean as you said earlier you know Vietnam War was happening and you were surfing yeah you know and so when the draft started coming it was like okay it was a different reaction so I think that's part of it but I have I talk with a lot of companies now and people will bring up the question of Millennials and hey you know the Millennials they don't want to work and it's really hard to work with them and I've explained to a bunch um now that you know in the Vietnam War they had soldiers Marines that had been drafted didn't want to go had there had a normal job or had their life going on but on many cases didn't believe in the war didn't believe in what we were done and yet good leaders would take those draftees and david hackworth who's a guy that i've read his books and talk about a lot he loved his draftees and he said oh yeah those guys they fought hard if I was doing something stupid they would tell me I actually enjoyed having guys that would raise because they weren't a career guy that's trying to kiss my ass and say hey that sounds great boss no they'd say hey that's it actually a dumb idea and so this idea that that these draftees were if you if the draftees were under good leadership the the leaders that I've had on here I've had quite a few guys from Vietnam that were you know ground ground commanders on in Vietnam and they said oh I couldn't tell the draftees from the from the lifers because they all work hard they all did their whereas if you read people that maybe weren't good leaders that would have an attitude you know that was oh the draftees didn't want to do with did they Nate they didn't work hard they didn't do their job it's to me it's not about the draftees to me it's about the leaders you're a great example you know of of a guy that not only said ok hey did you want to go to Vietnam in 1960 in 1968 getting pulled out or you know going to college and skiing and surfing no but guess what okay you're gonna go do your job you not only did your job did it well and also stepped up and led other people that were in the same situation you were yeah I had great leaders too you know I mean the people we can look up to and we had this one lieutenant who became the captain of our outfit and he was with another another company and they were in a situation where almost all of them got sniped is it we like the commanders and stuff the captain's lieutenants and Colonels it's all right on the side of the track had a little chair for him there makeshift something or other but they write on the side and they went into to entertain in a place called Newton by Dan and I guess a snipe almost all of it anyways we got this this lieutenant from there that he was I don't say he's last survivor but I mean he was one of those that didn't get sniped and he became the leader our great guy great guy and but there were other ones too I mean everybody got got along pretty good yeah I refused to go out one time on a mission it was a it was a snd at night and literally I didn't want too much want to go because I knew it was gonna be real cluster and anytime you do run roads at night without knowing exactly but you're where you're going or what you're doing you know they were just gonna go out and search and destroy and see what they could run into and I'm and I'd been there a while so I'm going problem with that was I did I kind of overstepped this a tennis Authority little bit and I talked to my captain I yeah just like I'm gonna look you know by the book the flame Jack's was to stay inside the compound at night that's just somewhere I read it or something like that he wanted me to go with him and so I talked to my captain anyways I didn't I didn't go I didn't have to go they went out and they came back and they bumped one guy off you know on a hill someplace you know he ended up walking back into base camp and I think I broke his arm with a tree limb you know you don't see at night too well and you can't go busting through the jungle with big lights on and but he got back at me he goes okay so you're gonna be protected at night and not necessarily protected but I mean you're inside the compound they ended up I had to take my two sixties off my two guys that were on those 60s left and I was left with was my 50 Cal the flame and my driver mm-hmm so I'm going I mean I wasn't a good idea you know but it could have been worse have we gone out in the mission you know I don't I don't know anyways so later on in my time there I became resupply sergeant in the field this is kind of after you know we've been through quite a few firefights and stuff and they said well ok it's time to slow down a little bit so I recant became resupply sergeant but it was resupply in the field so I was still rounding with the same guys I was with except I get to fly a shit hook back and forth to someplace else to pick up fuel and food and stuff and then delivered to my guys unfortunately that lieutenant's outfit got few laughs they got food last they got you know it's kind of chicken shit I shouldn't really have done it like that but I was gonna like took weapons away from you yeah I mean that's my life we good out there you know this is one of those is one of these things where again from my perspective I was trying to look at things from a leadership perspective if I've got an experienced guy that's uh that's telling me that something is wrong or tell me I should do something a different way then I'm gonna listen to him that's what I'm gonna do and if you were telling me hey this doesn't make any sense to go out at night this is not a good idea I'm gonna say you know what okay let's reconsider why we're doing this mission and how we're gonna execute this thing to me that's that's part of leadership and again if I took care of you by saying okay tell me explain this to me and we had a real conversation about why it is you don't think we should go out because maybe there's some things that I could have done to mitigate that say you know what since you are in the flame maybe we'll put you in the back we'll do something different and then at a minimum you you you you are happy that I listened to you I didn't just bark an order you know this we're gonna do cuz what does that end up turning into what that ends up turning into is you got a negative attitude towards me and as a leader I don't want you to have a negative attitude towards me because guess what you end up doing you end up in a position where you're not giving me my resupply when I want it which is which is again these things just boil down to having respect up and down the chain of command and if you listen to the people below you in the chain of command let's let's let's ask this question if I was in that guy's shoes I'd say okay I got sergeant Hall he's telling me doesn't want to go out why is he saying that let me listen to him he's saying it's gonna be hard to maneuver at nighttime he's got more experience than me maybe I should listen to him and on top of that what am I going to accomplish tonight is it my ego that wants to go out because sometimes just know we're gonna go out no no all you're gonna listen to me we're gonna go out and not just becomes my ego versus your ego and of course can I win that contest yes because I outrank you so we're gonna do what I said but what is that what how does that really help it doesn't doesn't help bring our team together so that's another thing to think about when it comes to just this stuff from a leadership perspective is is if you listen to the people below you in the chain of command and you hear them out and you take into consideration what they're telling you it is going to number one it's going to improve the way you do your job because if who's smarter me who just got here or you who've been here for eight months you're gonna have more information you're gonna know more than I do it's gonna make me better if I listen and we're gonna accomplish our mission better if I listen and on top of that it's gonna strengthen the bonds that we have because we're reciprocating fought between our brains and we're listening to each other and that brings us tighter together so these little leadership lessons are you know there was no more yesterday and at night after that mission well there you go so so and what it improves by that you know I mean I bet your captain went to and said hey listen well you know hey listen lieutenant if you got hall telling you we shouldn't be doing this I'll let you do it tonight can you want to prove your little point but that's it basically yeah so so there you go so he he cost himself some leadership capital that actually ended up hurting him later on in the resupply ya know you took care of him but you you made him wait for it made a little point mister minerva plantation was exciting so we're cruising one day we're coming back to base camp and we're all in the column we're just cruising along normal like and the lead track takes a couple of sniper rounds coming from the hillside up here so we put a little half shoe you know and and just let go with 18 50 calibers or 17 whatever it is up into the hillside it's all Michelin rubber plantation setup in there and then it it quieted down you know nothing's coming back we're going okay no things rolling cuz I got a quarter my eye and down the road I can see dust coming down there and here's a red white and blue Ford Bronco fairly new one I'm pretty sure it was blue it I know I don't was white and red and it had some blue on it and he comes in and Brody's right into our little horseshoe there and he gets off those over talks to the colonel my name is Colonel Mackenzie and her own jumped off the track and stuff and this guy sitting there and he's doing like this jumps back in he's got a little plantation worker with him too he jumps back in his Bronco and he takes off and I want them in this little firefight you as well we pay $1500 a piece on that guy for those trees and a 50 caliber hit that tree I believe the treetops and bleeds the rubber out sent his plantation don't go over her up there in a couple potshots don't hit anybody that's one way to make money off the yes oh yeah the Michelin the mission plantation was it was pretty good they they they had this thing because there was a lot of movement down through the plantation you know of troops and stuff so they came out with this idea about okay we will have red zones and green zones a red zone anybody inside the red zone and it one clicks square right and anybody in the red zone you know that that's free fire mm-hmm in green zone no because you have the plantation workers you know stirring a pot and stuff well they used to melt right into the the and we get workers that we've seen before that are in red zones I'm working now go work out good so anyways they stopped doing it that's that's my story I'm sticking to it yeah like I said that's one way to make money off and that's government for sure and so you ended up doing how long how long have you know ten months 22 days and then was that that was shorter than a normal no I get early out to go back to school company clerk one day came out in the field he's delivering checks and or money and whatever and he says you know sergeant all you can get overly out they just approved something or rather I go how do I do that no I'm not this is why you just need a letter from school you know and I brought my mom by mail okay and sure not she she registered me it at the college at Grossmont college and so I got out a little bit earlier and that was cuz Nixon was at this point I think try it down some things are slowing down yeah things are slowing down a little bit so they want to get guys out hey well before we before we kind of wrap on Vietnam but one more one more note that you made was about your uh your medic oh yeah yeah it's one that talks on that one before you come back wish I knew his name I wish I knew his name we were we got in the shit a little bit and he was a co conscientious objector and hell of a medic greatest guy I ever knew and one day we got in the shit he's riding on my track and he picked up a weapon I'm starvin and to save his ass you know and ours you know and but he never did it again mmm never do it again but then the rest of the time you're saying he would know he'd brave yeah he was insane good guy really good guy and there's there's just I mean what kind of that's an incredible again just talking about from a leadership perspective you got a guy in your unit that's a conscientious objector that doesn't want to be at war and yet you got him out there and he's risking his life and even in the moment of truth he actually steps up and no you can see what was happening yeah yeah what was going on that he needed to step up that's the IRA situation yeah they were puffing up out of the bush pretty good and and and you know I didn't have any control where they were anything you know you see guys over here okay you can fire over there and they were starting to hit us from the from the rear and he happened to be there and so he picked up the 60 and Sarah having at it what's the like what's the whole situation with a conscientious objector like what he does is one that serves and but he doesn't want to want to kill anybody and he doesn't want to shoot we just want to you know carry weapons or anything I mean you wouldn't even carry a 45 you carry medic bag and that's just cool with everybody and that's it's so it's like an understood thing like hey I dig it your views on this whole thing come do your job we don't expect you to right or whatever right huh yeah there's such small my believing common is that it's not very not very I don't think it's not very common I'd say it might have been more common in World War two only because I and this is a complete speculation on my part in Vietnam someone that didn't want to fight was more apt to just run away to Canada or something or get a deferment for whatever you know medical but it seems like in World War two again cuz the whole country was at war that they would be like well you know I'm just gonna be a country and there's a there's the movie about the the guy that won the was awarded the Medal of Honor yeah yeah there's a conscientious objector and he saved both what like 75 or hundred yeah yeah crazy you know and took massive risks to to make it happen does that go down gone now nowadays I can Iraq or anything I I have never met a conscientious objector myself know so I don't know I haven't heard of it lately mmm-hmm it was just something that was you know he's a great guy man he just didn't that's okay he's a medic yeah I guess it was old I guess it ran wouldn't go on now because there's no draft so if there's no draft you don't need to go so if you don't need volunteers just you're just not going yeah whereas if you they had the draft yeah unless yeah unless they have you know people they have their principles where they're like hey I want to go make a difference yeah but you you know they're kind of tailed in there that maybe that person would go in the Peace Corps instead of the Marine Corps you know I live being resupplied you go yeah they have options now more yeah yeah make sense I captured two guys over there one time I know the medaka it'll upset and I was on a mission we were we were tailing some guys that were surveyors or something like that and pull in security for him so I figure coming back and I was on battalion radio and this is after we got sorry we got overrun on the Thunder three a few days later and so cruising down the road and I see this guy and we had what they called true boy back then when they gave up open arms yeah and so he's too high and he's got you know bandoliers across his chest and stuff you know he's in loincloth and he was part of the 30 that hit our base campus three two nights before that and so I was last in the column is on battalion radio and I was trying to get a hold of my guys on the company and you know so anyway we pulled over in the mud off the side of the road and he's sitting in his little saddle on this hill and so I got down and went out took the battle near office time he said something he was talking he's yelling and back I was gonna be somebody else back there right and so I had it was toggling nice is he keep an eye on this guy here you know and he they had him and so I'm looking up oh and I go up over the hill and here's this guy laying on the ground he got a ak-47 beside him like this he's laying on the ground I'm I'm going get up you know you know I know it's going he's going whatever the guy said was good because I didn't shoot that guy you know and for the other guy he goes okay ball from the only poor guy he stood up I made it I made him stand up and his calf was blown off from his knee to his with on his bone you know and alcohol no so he left it is a chaotic on the ground and such I went over to him and I I put him on my back because I carry him out to the road on 13 by that time that the medics would come out and stuff and then when I got couple of my guys on tracks and stuff were out too and so I put him on the on my back night carrying a lot and threw him in the back of the Jeep and this other medic grabbed him by the hair doctor 45 in the side of his head what are you doing man he I just carried him 50 yards across a speedy thank you know across the the mud he's not gonna do anything well you never know I'm gonna look in his legs all blown off this is up that a K though it was on full automatic and he was gonna go for it and interpreter talked to him and he says yeah he's pointing to the sky the night that the attack happened puffs came by and and he peppered the whole area and stuff you know it was beautiful sight you know a big ribbon of red and boom boom boom all around the compound he must have got hit by it or something or you that or one of the cold risen or something like that but didn't yeah they did damage it was funny the interpreter came back and and and told me he says you know he's just thinks you're a doctor okay whatever the mentality is that guy was a sergeant it was a staff sergeant I think and then MBA or something like that you know usually he was up there and the other guy was like a captain or something like that is weird you know little guys know those guys and they would you say that those guys would then turn to be that full like help help out or they were a lot of times where reintegrated and in depending on what area they were there that come from and they find that out and then they did you know blown them back into the this society throws their yes I don't know I never saw him again huh yeah that's that's another thing there's a lot of similarities and not a lot there are definite similarities between you know what it was like for us over in Iraq and and I didn't fight in Afghanistan but the guys that fight over there you know just the and then in Vietnam just trying to tell who's a good guy who's a bad guy yes it's one of those things it's uh there's no easy way to do it no there isn't and a lot of the villages stuff from pro VC villages and stuff and we knew that and the day time was fine at night time don't want to go through there you know we had some some girls get into our compound and once the gates were closed and stuff they found her inside and she was from the village which was a pro VC village and I don't know they got some Intel and stuff from her and and all that and the next thing you know the recon Mountain up and they're gonna take her back to the village and I go hey I'll go you know I ride shotgun on 150 off one of the recon tracks and so we pulled in this village wish boned it you know make sure and they kicked her out in the back of this track through out of the bike and she's yelling all the time there's no no they'll kill me they'll kill me don't kill me I'm cool but the interpret girls now should be all right you know okay whatever at that moment though when we did we've pulled in this village and stuff I saw this what I thought was a head coming up over one of the little hooches and stuff that they had almost fired but but didn't and ended up being like a palm frond or something you know just popping up over this Ridge of this this huge so it's kind of that was kind of scary no yeah I would think you know the the the insurgents definitely in Iraq if they found out in Ramadi if they found out that somebody was working with the coalition they did kill them yeah they'd skinned alive they did that they'd be had them it was pretty awful we we the u.s. coalition forces were very careful not to ever indicate that any of the people that were working with the Korean especially when I first got as as the transition happened and the insurgents got were on the defensive more and the local populace realized that we were gonna stay and protect them they got more we they got more verbal about like hey no there's a bad guy down there and and and the momentum shifted towards the local populace just being like hey we're good you're good those guys are bad yeah and there was less fear and that was really one of the tipping points so you get this early release program and how's that you just boom they pluck you out of Vietnam you get a letter well how'd that go down no actually the colonel flew into where I was on this other track it was one of those command tracks it had a little bubble on top yeah the five I think it's called a five seven seven whatever yeah I don't remember one fours or something okay and Colonels colonel came flying out there in his helicopter and stuff and came in to where we were staged and she said sergeant Hall there's your ride out of here why were you talking to us he goes no he doesn't like sticking on the ground there's a little loach man we were great great helicopter ride and he goes go and I mean I got a duffel bag and I started giving stuff away my camera my tape recorder and nothing you know and just grabbed what I could and jump on this helicopter and balloon we were up in the air and I was still trying to do that four-point buckle I didn't know I've never flown in those little ones before you know trying to put the buckle on and stuff he just reached over and went like that and was done and they were up in the air treetops heading to Dowe hanging and that was it and then went back in base camp got my stuff out of the locker caught a ride on a and I was a caribou I don't remember anybody anyways cut down the down to tonsure new down Saigon and stuff and it was quick it was quick like I missed the first flight you know and I was down showering shaving and Sergeant came up says hey you just met mrs. a champagne flight and it was a nice one too and United Airlines I think it was and they so I said well so I had a way around another day and then finally we left and got on this this world airlines I don't know it was either Korean or Japanese or something like that yeah they flew us home yeah it was quick now you you find right right back into San Diego no we went to San Francisco said yeah I I went to Frisco but they said we got D roastin in Oakland or something I think it was or whatever it was down there and so they give you all your all your stuff and you give them all your stuff that you have this military wise and they go yeah you can get your cab out there at the airport okay all right went out there took a PSA flight back so now we're talking 1970 1970 yeah February so and this is the height 19 the height the height of the anti-war movement oh yeah yeah yeah was what was that like not too bad up there San Diego and stuff you had some hippie guys out front when I came out and I wasn't really too worried glad to be home and stuff's all my brothers and stuff that's bad you know not spit on but at my feet and you know the wasn't the baby killer stuff even after what he said you know but it was like you ignorant ass and this saw my brothers and stuff and took off and that that was really the extent of the of the of the war protesters that you saw some jackasses yeah was that where you did you just look at it like you just did just now which is like yeah whatever this guy's yeah yeah yeah a new function yeah at that point I wanna kill them no no I just you know like irritated me a little bit but then I get in fear you know cuz my brother saw me and stuff so brother John and Doug came pick me up and then um so now you're you're done so this is like this is a period of what like three four days five days or something like that let's go for live days less than five days you go from the jungles of Vietnam drop you off and you're back in the world and then you're back in the world yeah what did they give you did they give you any kind of no yeah there's the door right there get a cab oh that's a funny thing too because because I went through the NCO school right so they had track of all the sergeants and stuff that were in Vietnam and so moving back to Zeon Zeon I think they had you had to go through certain bungalows or buildings and stuff and I went through one and he goes he gave me a name he marked it off it's oh you're one of them that made it I know what do you mean yeah you're on on the list here you made it okay fine I didn't understand what it was but they were counting how many NCOs from that period made it through yeah but no there wasn't there is no debriefing or or you know have a good time or you know this is what you should do or and yeah good job America well no they didn't know yeah they didn't know yeah well one of the big things as buttes pointed out a lot is in world war ii when you finish world war ii at a minimum you got on a ship with and you talked about it you got on a ship with 500 other guys thousand other guys and you rode with them for six weeks until you got back to american during that time you talked about everything and you kind of got it off your chest and out of your system and then you got back and it was you you got that decompression time we didn't even know what it was called but putting you you know from the jungles of Vietnam to Main Street San Diego yes feel about it though didn't know any different mm-hmm you know how was I supposed to feel you know I figured that happened to everybody the only things that I had a family to go to a lot of guys didn't yeah sorry it's all good well we're glad that you had a family and glad I meet you glad you came on home when you did did you um did you jump right back into college or did that was a yeah I kind of blew that away you know I take astrology geometry and whatever and you get a classes all mixed up and they'll just one for me but I did get out you know whether you to send me back mm-hmm Oh suit so we you you were still in the army they okay they out-processed yeah but you're you're good you know you're still in reserves and whatever it is for a couple of years yeah so what'd you do what'd you do when you got back um kind of chilled for a while you know and then I went to work with my dad at the unemployment unemployment I did get unemployment for a year I think it was or six months or something like that that's another funny story you know the people of the unemployment you know asked people what did you do in the military or what do you want to do and I go I want to build wooden boats well we don't have any but they did in San Diego but and what did you do in the military and being a sarcastic little ass I was I just like killed people cutting jobs for that mm-hmm you know I was just being sarcastic yeah I don't know what to say no but anyway I went to work for my dad and at the employment agency for a while and then through that employment agency I got a job at a building material warehouse and down in San Diego case products and I worked there for quite a while little while but I'm used to met contractors and stuff you know they came in there and they said hey you want to work on a weekend I you know them before you know what you know I was working at a cabinet shop and then after that I was building houses and and then I worked for the gas company in the 80s st Jeannie for about eight years and stuff and I never saw this little guy grow up or anything you know it's kind of like I've worked at nights and days and and afternoons and then I got the job at that I quit that I glued a lot of things during that period then I got the job at the hotel down yeah nice what point how old were you when you had Josh I was 32 33 32 I got married when I was 32 so it was like 30 I was 33 or something again mm-hmm yeah and then I got divorced when I was 42 do you think you bounced around from a lot of jobs cuz you were looking for something like you did you weren't quite sure what you wanted to do the STG Nev it was a good job you know I mean I that was an excellent job there's just a matter of finding the job yeah you know laying people helping you and stuff you know and then go cuz I didn't know I was lost so that you know after you know the divorce and stuff you know I was just wandering you know in my mind and literally wandering and then I worked the Thunder boat races for a long time during the 80s and a couple those guys like you know I you know try to go to the the del you know so I went down there and they go what do you do it's as well I'm carpenter you know I had been in the past and okay so he hired me for 10 bucks an hour well that's better than nothing it was it was a good job it was a good career move yeah so good family down at the hotel yeah and you got to be in Coronado yeah yeah was like a little you know go over the bridge boom you're near days done I know it was like the little Disneyland then this kiddies he came along and and I was over there too diligently doing his homework at 3:30 and afternoon in the shop alright so that brings us to job Josh Shaw but and so did you where'd you guys actually live did you valid on ok so you still lived in Spring Valley but you worked in Coronado and that meant you spent a bunch of time in Coronado yeah yeah basically what had happened I think I was nine when you guys got divorced ten so I stayed at my mom's place in Claremont for two more years and then the middle of eighth grade I'm like this isn't a good scene so called him up and he came and got me and that was it I lived the rest of we finished out eighth grade in Claremont and then lived in La Mesa well Spring Valley yeah and would go over the bridge together every day and it worked out I played I didn't play three seasons of sports my plate too played soccer for four years baseball for two and then golf for two so my time practice was over he was off work and we'd go home yeah so it was cool is tough breaking in you know that I think out of my graduating class maybe I want to say up to thirty kids have been in school together since kindergarten and so when you're trying the new kid on the block and you know of course I had long blonde hair and was a surfer and wear Hawaiian shirts all the time you know it took about six months to kind of break in and make make friends but it was great I wouldn't trade anything for going there it was a great school to go to for four years and a couple three or four families like really brought me in and made me feel welcome so it was it was a good move so what years you start surfing how old were you started surfing well really started surfing I mean we've gone to the beach my whole life we'd camped at south carlsbad state beach every summer i mean my grandpa bogeyed into his 80s literally like walk a boogie board down the stairs and get in the water so I always grew up with it I have an older half-brother that was a big-time surfer but at that time he wasn't the nurturing supportive type he was the more I'm gonna take you out drown you type so unfortunately I kind of missed an early window to get started but I'd say I really got into it around 14 end of eighth grade you know we're like all boogie boardin whatever and then by ninth grade we got you know got into surfing with my friends from the great thing was is even living in Spring Valley every weekend my dad would drive us cuz my friends we all grew up in Claremont but before high school one of my best friends moved down to PB and so basically all summer long that's where we lived all weekend long that's where we lived and so thanks to this guy he would drive me from Spring Valley on a Friday afternoon well we go home and then drive out and then he would come Sunday night pick me up and it's just surf the entire weekend yeah just yeah hang with hang with friends and so yeah I was like 14 seen our freshman year high school pretty much cut which is late now I mean yeah those kids are surfing when they're like three well now their kids are now they're pro by the courts other parents are pulling them out of school the homeschooling we have six years old yeah so and and let's let's hear about I mean how did you start how did you say to yourself you know what I like riding surfboards but I want to start making them I'm it really started with ding repair and you know just I wanted to be a surfer I mean we were all surfers we had a huge group we're called the felspar Rat Pack and there was 30 of us every weekend from Mission Bay High Madison Claremont you see I you know I would show up and we would conglomerated Peavey every weekend for like 4 years in a row it was it was pretty incredible and I just I don't know I had such an affinity for surfing and in that neighborhood were a lot of people in the surfboard industry you know yeah Burt Huffman had South Coast skip and Hank had Harry surf shop and then Joe Roper used to have like his first original shop down there in fells part but so these guys were around all the time so just kinda was like wow that guy's making a living building boards you know although their complete legends and in different ways but I that's how it started I would like take boards home and being repair and you know you know hack on my friends boards and charge them 20 bucks and what about the fact that okay what years is this this would be 90 so I went into high school 94 95 I graduated 98 so so how did you go from being in into like what a normal 90s surfer type of surfer and type of surfboard and type of attitude to being like okay you know what I'm gonna actually ride longer boards I'm gonna be more traditional where did that come from well to be honest what really got a sparked and a like my group of friends and a surfing was endless summer too had just come out like literally I remember sitting in the third row watching it and he was with me in my friend Joe and it just was like wow and just that kind of sparked I think the style of like that's how we want to serve I never really I think this day I've never ridden a proper short board I just you know and then what what he could afford to get me to you know my first board was a broken in half guy talking I'm a longboard that got fixed at Island surf you know and that's what I wrote and so that that was the vehicle and you know I think I got a couple swap meet scores for 50 bucks like I remember had a rocket fish so I did write a couple smaller boards but never a proper short board you know maybe I guess I wasn't that you know like I wasn't like a big guy but I don't know I just didn't I like the flow and just the style parts of it and then right after endless summer to our local hero Joel Tudor came out with I think his first movie and then that was like okay yeah that's how we want to try to surf and I'm still trying to surf it is it everyone yeah but yeah that was kind of the combo and again I think it just was being able you know Manny down an island surf when we were in high school you know hooked us up on a board and that's just how it was that's how we started oh well actually - so I guess I should backtrack right after that I was playing baseball started majors which is 11 and 12 and went into Pony League and I played two years in high school well my baseball coaches at claremont own diamond glassine Bob Bochy so and all the kids on the team were like La Jolla Shores script you know rusty rippers right they're all riding their short boards and so that kind of I was like okay and just being able to go to a factory back then you know they they wouldn't let you look in a room you couldn't ask a question they didn't just be like get the bail you know like gromek will build your board but don't you like don't Cove nose in and around you know that's how it happened we ordered a BA through Bob Roger Beale shaped me like a 2 plus 1 high pro 90s perfect 90s longboard and then my next board that one broke broke in half and then the next board it was pretty classic the start of my sophomore year I broke my leg and soccer and my board well broke the board first then my leg and soccer the next week so I started the school year out on crutches that was pretty funny but the next two boards I got were it was a stew Kenson 90s high pro you know longboard and then Joel's movie came out oh I want a nine for round pin single pin and so we went back to Bob and Bob's like yeah yes do can shape anything and what's crazy looking back now is when I went to order that board Stu's I can't come in my room check this out you should get one of these and it was the first six six karma model that he had shaped for Joel right yeah so that anyway said that yeah that's how but we had that crazy end with with the bow cheese you know as a baseball coach but owner of you know one of the biggest glass shops I think in surfboard history yeah and it's and I'm still at some point your brain is saying I just don't want to ride these boards I want to I want to I want to shape these boards yeah how old were you and you said yourself I'm gonna shape a board I don't know I 16 the fight okay so do you watch the morning of the Earth or something no not no I didn't even know about that it was just it was more like well we would watch the short board videos like all the lost videos and you know that's we'd watch like the the Taylor steel stuff like momentum and focused like that's what we watched but some Alec I ended up just being the longboarder in the group so did my friend Joe but um I think it was just I wanted you know he was a carpenter so I think I kind of have that in my genes and I really just wanted a an excuse to be able to keep surfing as long as possible you know and I thought well you know shape and boards might be the way if you know we he came down dropped me off on a Friday or whatever and skip was out picking up trash and and I was like dad I really wanna you know maybe I maybe I could watch him shape aboard right and so he was okay oh go ask him and he gets out and I'm like sliding down my dad's truck tell us about he is you know obviously not everyone that listens to this podcast surfs and even even some people that serve well know most people would surf tell us about skip fry well yeah skip fry he is I mean he's he's such a legend it's hard to I mean original surfer shaper from San Diego grew up in Bay Park and went to Hawaii with the Windansea crew back in the day and really became one of the top surfers in that era and still is and he I mean I my words aren't gonna do him any justice but he's sort of the kind of the one of the last guys from that say the golden era you know and that that mid the late 60s that really designed and surfed and tested and you know and would go back and redesign and retest and of that era that's still around he's still doing any 77 and he's more stoked now he's changing his fins all I did you know I rode this board but this been set up and I mean that's the first 10 minutes of any conversation with him not like oh how are the waves he's like no no but I wrote the you know he's just to see somebody at 77 is stoked as a 14 year old that's that skip I mean I again I can't I can't do him any justice as far as what he means to not just me but the sport in general I mean he really is our compass for yeah it's I'm sitting here as you're sitting yours as you're sitting there trying struggling to describe how you would describe skip and what he means in surfing you know I guess I guess just the word legend like he is is the legendary shaper surfer yeah he's sort of the the pinnacle of what that means and if you say his name everyone just goes oh yeah well let's skip right yeah and and at some point so so your dad you know Dave you just said okay I'll go ask him yeah I will talk to him yeah I told him I was just a man you know and you know I went up I said excuse me mr. Frye and I asked him I said hey can my son watches a billboard he goes yeah you know I get I got burnt by somebody or something like that you know and and took some of these shapes and I don't really do that and but he says you know what I'll watch him in the water and then just check him out and then it went from there yeah it really was just an organic thing so I was 18 San Diego State I went to state on grant money because my mom wasn't around and he didn't really make that much money you know at the time and so I get this grant check my my freshman fall semester you know and I'm gone oh wait okay I've already got books schools paid for and I've got that much money left so I went down and at that point you'd walk into Harry's Donna was at the desk you talk about what you'd want and she'd go okay go to Mitch's here get this blank he'd wait for a week get the blank go back and then you'd hopefully talk to skip you know a lot of people Donna would just deal with but thankfully skip came out and he said what do you want I go well I know your boards are really different from everybody that in the neighborhood that rides them you know you can ride a fry you probably won't ride other boards and so I just kind of want an introductory model you know what would be a good representation for me to to learn you know want to surf your style of boards and so it was a nine six egg two plus one and anyway so from when I dropped the blank off until the shape came it was about three months and just organically from surfing again his shop was on the street that I grew up surfing so we'd see each other in the water I Donna kind of like you know struck up a relationship with her she kind of took me under her wing it's like one of her kids quote unquote and and and just organically became closer and closer with them to where finally I got the call he goes hey you're up I'm gonna shape your board tomorrow why don't you come down and we'll go for a surf and then I'll shape your board and you can watch and I go I was like freaking I mean I'm like running across campus right to get home and like go home and tell my dad and so that's that's what went down we met at the shop the next day and he pulled out to his personal nine six eggs and we walked around the corner down the stairs all my friends were across the street sitting on their tailgates like what you're getting a ride a skips personal and then you know and we went out and surf really fun PB like for a couple hours like a really good session and we went into the room and I just sat on the toolbox and it was I don't know it felt like it was like 10 hours long but it probably is only a couple hours but man I was jacked I was so jacked that driving home I almost fell asleep driving home you know and you knew you hadn't shaped aboard at this point we okay so the summer after my senior year I just was like I'm gonna go for it and he let me build a proper site shaping room in the garage so I'd worked there's a wall in Coronado across from the golf course that I spent all summer working with a master bricklayer and so I made good money and as we put it into shaping room and literally split the garage in half I had a 8 by 16 by 8 right so a proper even by today's standard it's a proper room and so I had that prior to you know I know the board was coming from skip and so that was Bill I got to watch that and I think the very next week I got a blank and went for it you know and then of course butchered it I don't even think that one got glassed but I actually think we tried to thin it out with a router imagine how many passes were there you know I didn't know see back then there was no planer then all the old guys are like piss off Grom like I'm not telling you what I how to do that or what tool to use or like figure it out and there's no YouTube at this point not to go and just watching everyone its shape boards yeah so you really were just literally on your own and yeah so we butchered that first blank and then got to watch skip shaped that egg and then I went back when okay not a little more you know with the leftover money from the from building that wall I bought a planer and then slowly started he got me a block plane and a form right so kind of just real slowly put the pieces together like okay I can at least thin this thing out and not you know but and then so with with that was 98 fallen 98 spring of 99 and so for like the next two and a half three years like every day was surfing with skip and watching him like that's just what went down like I just go and hang out well he wouldn't even say anything to me and I just hang out in the corner of the room you know and I do errands for Donna I'd watch the shop if they had to go to a lunch meeting or whatever and yeah that was a real real special time to be able to do that of everyone of every person that would have wanted to be in that position what do you think it was that he saw on you that said you know what I'm good with this kid I don't know I have no idea yeah I I really don't know because there's been dozens of other people that have probably tried to put themselves in that same position and I don't know I think part of it was maybe having Donna be like yeah this is a good kid you know he's one of my kids there's another guy Ryan Levinson that she kind of gave the same title to and so we were around a lot and I think slowly you know I would you know skip saw who I was and my demeanor and that type of thing and and how stoked I was of course how could you not be but so yeah I thought I don't know me I don't know look we're at now it's blowing at what point did did did he let you take a pass or the planer well you know what I haven't I didn't I didn't in his room but the way just going and watching and talking and having him show me this I would go home and literally repeat that step mmm you know so it was kind of like it wasn't until later on that we started kind of build and we felt maybe 10 or 12 Ford's together where you know if the thin went out and template it and he'll finish it or vice versa but yeah those early years it just was like studying watching that's I don't know if that's just how I grew up like that's how I started playing golf because I'd watch golf on them on the weekends with my grandma all the time and then go out and hack dirt all over the middle of the street but that you know just like by watching and doing watching and doing I don't know so that's kind of how that came about and then what was the growth of from you butchering blanks to you selling a blank for are selling a board that you shaped for to break even and then to I eventually make you know yeah box 30 bucks 50 bucks I mean so I shape the first part of shape was a nine five long board and then the second one was a rocket fish and then that whole crew that I grew up with at the beach I call your building board think well yeah I want to you a build you one you know it's charge of half the blank cost and so if it's a longboard blanks were a hundred bucks charge of 50 bucks and then thank Roper Joe Roper had his ding repair down at Marina Boulevard and he would glass him in fact that was really cool too and skip shaped that board he goes okay you can take it over to Joe's cuz he would always take it to the glass or right so that was really cool so Joe glass my first fry and my first board I ever shaved so that's pretty kind of a cool little story there but yeah Joe would do that and he still does it he still glasses kids like my like like me now built in their first second third tenth board and he's glass and I'm still it's really cool yeah so then then it just started escalating and you started actually where someone outside of your crew says hey I wouldn't mind one of those boards too and now you can charge him the full price of a blank instead of half of it yeah yeah I guess it kind of I mean so there was sort of a I went to Spain for my fourth year of school right for a year well 11 months and so I didn't do any shape and of course and hardly any surfing so there's a number of boards out there I think I want to say there's about 75 boards that were shaped prior to that coming as you in one a month maybe you know or maybe two a month most and then that was what we called the Spring Valley new era or excuse me that all my the numbers were sv-1 right Spring Valley which is classic as here we are in PVE but I'm shaping him in Spring Valley anyways so then when I came back it was sve like Spring Valley new era and that I was like yeah I really want to do this but I also wanted to finish school I got a degree in Spanish lit from San Diego State while I was studying in Spain a friend came over and then did you have any kind of plans like to what to do anything with that degree uh yeah so my best friend so at some point you're gonna be a normal person yeah in my head I'm thinking wow teachers have 180 days a year off that's sick so that kind of was the plan I went in for international business and they go look it's gonna take you seven years to get out of here in a mine walk on all of me in college seven years so I went in with a high level of Spanish that I went right into upper division Spanish there so I knew I could graduate quicker with a Spanish degree than trying to go excuse me international business so that's but when I went to Spain my whole world got turned into the wine business cuz a friend of mine did graduate and I'm like what are you doing over here he's like we traveled for a month together it was pretty amazing and he goes well via wine importer and so our Spanish teacher from high school was like okay well his name was Tom Tom you put it together and I'll give you guys a little bit of backing and see what happens and so I came back from my year the company got formed he had gotten all the license and literally a month before I graduated two containers of wine landed in San Diego and it was like he was like well are you ready to sell some wine and we didn't know anything about anything we just knew that we had wine and we had to go sell it so I did that for three years and I call it my MBA in real life you know it was gnarly everything I'd gone through by the time as 23 was like what most people go through corporate wise I mean we had corporate dissolutions you know $500 an hour lawyers all that stuff and I had to learn QuickBooks cuz I had to take care of all the accounting and all the money and write all the checks and so that's kind of what thrusted me right into like being sort of a bit I mean I was a business owners 50% of the business and it was do this or like fail you know but still living at home right I'd graduate it's still living at home not getting paid so it wasn't like it was going but it wasn't real like the numbers weren't real we're like selling cases one paying rent we might get out 200 bucks you know so it was a very brutally like difficult time to to be 2223 and completely struggling and completely broke mm-hmm for three years and you're still shaping yeah yeah so the the the shaping room was still in the garage so again I'd do one a month maybe two month surfing not as much as I used to because now this this is like a sink or swim type of deal here with the wine business so a lot of I mean we're long hours you know and brutal and not getting paid like or maybe paid one month and then not paid for two months and you know then partnership with investors struggles and you know where I don't even talk to him anymore you know that my old business partner thankfully my friendship with our teacher is still super tight he's like my best friend and that survived but the the real world experience I got out of that all the contacts and cold calling I mean we went from zero to 185 accounts in a year I don't know how to anything about wine yet you know I went learned a lot quick but just that daily brutal cold call cold knock hey and they're like who are you you know all the old guys that have been in it for 30 years like you guys like but we it was unique because we were the importer and distributor so we kind of had a position of like like well you guys get to go to Spain like yeah we were in Spain you know my partner just went to Chile to get the wine so it was legit but we were like these young kids you know pretty that was it was that was a gnarly three years I might came out of that pretty spun out and then and then at the end of that it just did it go under did it basically my partner got married and then he got got pregnant and cheated well you know what I mean they got pregnant and I'm just like are you what how like I'm living at home not kidding pain you're like get ready have a kid so what had happened is he got he went and got a real job working for another importer of produce and then so he's like I want out I'll let that yours I was like no no I don't I'm like I want out it was like you know and so we worked it out he he moved on I consolidated a distributor friend of mine Jerry Hart saved my ass let me put my wine in his warehouse so I could get out of a $2,500 a month lease props to Jerry still see him around he's still in the wine business legend of the human and then I remember I was at a and the whole time I'm surfing from PB surf club I'm doing the coalition contest and I'm walking having this last talk with my ex business partner about I'm like look I want out man I'm done and so we make kind of made an agreement and I remember I was in the parking lot at Malibu and that's when I decided I'm like I'm over this and I call him like done and so Jerry helps me get out of it Malibu helped made you see the light and and Jerry worked with me and he'd be got I got all the wine into his place and he helps sell it off and I did the full why did you know go back to the lawyer and pay for the dissolution agreement all that stuff and walked away and that was like the end of 2005 so it's only about two and a half years almost three years and then after that I was done I was burnt I go I'm gonna go back in the restaurant because I worked tables not in place and Quigs is which is now what's it called Wonderland down there yes I worked there great crew back then and so I went back and I go hey would you guys mind now I have some wine industry experience so now it's like yeah yeah come on in and and so they took me right back in and and for six months I just did that I just I worked there and I also worked at the Wine Vault Bistro down on little industry cuz Chris would always taste our wines and give us tasty notes whether he hated it or liked it right and they had just opened up a restaurant so I went down and helped them almost for about a year and a half after I started Josh all surfboards officially in July of 2006 and after the wine i sat I called skip and Dawn we had dinner go look guys like you know you've obviously seen the history the last three years whatever gone I want to build boards I'm gonna go for it and they both gave me their blessing said whatever we can do to help support you you you know you have our support and go for it and so that's what kind of put it on full blast and then and then what did that look like what did full support from skip and Donna Frye look like well just like there they were there you know they weren't bombed on the fact that you know and they they obviously besides those first couple custom boards skip and start shaping everything I wrote and then I had access to his quiver so it his boards shaped how I serve and in my head I go well hmm that's funny not many other people shaped boards like this might be a good idea to maybe pay attention and start so the boards that we're building although bricks compared to now we're in that style and they knew that so a lot of the models it's like I'm not going to learn one thing and then go I'm gonna go over here and recreate a wheel and so I've just tried to take what those initial formative years and with how I serve and other influences and put together what we've got but it's just it was good for me to know that they had my back you know anything anything I needed I mean support wise or I mean skip and I were still surfing together all the time he's taken me you know you took me to Malibu the first time swamis cliffs a no they keep really it wasn't just the board thing it was wind tide weather swell direction interval this reef that reef cuz I'd have windows at school hey skip I got two hours and he go oh go here you know and sure enough but show up at a rate place and get waves so it was more more school II than just the board stuff the what was the escalation looking like in terms of going from where you know you start Josh all surfboards to where I mean you know obviously when you started off you you got a cell some of the board's you got to get some of them one or two or three and then eventually the word gets out there and you know how long does it take before you go before you're actually I have a full-time job shaping Lords well it's it's it's pretty it's funny because so when I got back from that Spain trip skip had moved to where he's at now and his neighbors Chris Christensen famous super famous shaper and so we became friends and when I came back so my senior year I worked for him just doing shop rat stuff sweeping up cleaning the shaping room - packing boards right well when this wine thing came about there was a guy Jeff McCallum who's now also a super famous shaper he came into town went to San Diego State and he would he work at a surf shop on garnett and he grew up surfing Crystal Pier and so I go hey man like would you ever want to work at a surf shop and I kind of knew like he is like into the board thing and he goes yeah and so I said okay we'll call call this guy and so he kind of took my position at Chris's and he got really into it he was you know Chris let him shape at night in his room and then glass and do and so he took everything I'm building all these things start to finish and and that lasted up until my fall out with the wine thing started coming Jeff goes hey I'm gonna I'm looking for a space would you want a room rent a room from me I go yeah and so we found a place over off Hancock Street 2006 July 4th we both shaped our first boards and that's how it started so it was kind of a cool like I got him into Chris but then he gave me the opportunity to leave Spring Valley right I was living in PB at the time and and that was it but as far as getting busy it was until like probably 2010 I mean I worked at I worked at three or four different restaurants I actually worked this I tried to work a summer at the Dell has like a valet greeter at the the Beach Village but it was like eight hour shifts till 3:00 in the morning and then I'd wake up you know from not sleeping but yeah it was it was tough as soon as I think I'd be busy enough that go I can pay rent and you know all my stuff yeah right I'd go in the hole I gotta get some catering I did catering jobs cuz it was quick big money so it dick it took a lot of pieces and then I went to New York in 2009 for the surf Film Festival there and I met my friend Sancho who was big surfer in the Basque Country of Spain also family owns one of the most massive wineries in Rioja so we hit it off like right away you know speak in Spanish and he was like yeah well why don't you try to come over you know I have some friends that have small shops maybe you could come over and shape some boards so that was the fall I left my the day of the October 20th my birthday is the 20s and I spent six weeks and I traveled found him in his family's winery did that he took me up to the Basque Country and introduced me a couple people I built some boards there I went down to Portugal and built like five or six boards at a factory down there so it was like okay this has potential next summer I went back for eight weeks summer after that I did ten weeks so that that helped once because that was extra income the euro was super strong so kind of helped and I was paying rad at my place here right but I just and yeah so since 2010 it's just been on a slow growth pattern you know I didn't come out with any marketing plans or I mean the main thing was just trying to shape a decent board yeah I was gonna say you're Martin your marketing plan is to make really good boards yeah yeah and I was thankful to work with some of the best glass shops too which helps because it makes it look pretty but man I'd give money back on my first thousand maybe I shouldn't say that but yeah still trying to figure it out you know those have the what is it a sentimental value yeah yeah I still get hit up I got number 38 and you're like oh I'm sorry I know yeah yeah so that so that was a real cool story there it's like it's kelp around at JH with like okay yeah blue water in the background and that was my friend's wife who's a watercolor artist and and I was like she said because I first thought of 30 or 40 boards and have any logos right and because it wasn't like you could just go to Kinko's and have them print up rice paper however he did it and she's like oh I'd rue this logo I was thinking about you nearby and your energy right and she came up with that the first time and it you know bitching sits on a board nice and and so we ran with that for I don't know probably 12 13 hundred boards as the first logo it's more sense you know how many boards you've shades now I'm just about it 4,200 right around that that number yeah I I I don't have everyone documented you know but I know the numbers that I did in Spring Valley the ones I did the first factory with Jeff and then moved actually in 2009 I moved to where skip was at there's still four or five other shapers in there and so I remember the numbers but I don't have it like to the actual board you know I know this I think it's Harbor I think Harbor has every board ever shape documented like you can hey I got the seven eight with this number and they can look it up and yeah shaped it or yeah so but yeah around forty two hundred so not that many people I don't know if people think I've shaped more or less I don't know yeah feels like a lot cuz a lot of what I do is big volume boards you know yeah long boards and yeah big boards you get four of them out of a 12-footer for short you know so one of the things where people ask a lot about mentorship right they say oh what yeah and for me I never really had like the mentorship that you get from skip or that you've gotten from skip and that you continue to get from skip that's like the most pure solid rat well-rounded mentorship I never got like anyone in the in the SEAL Teams that was just given me all that you know everything and I don't say that in a negative way I mean there's plenty of guys that helped me out and I learned a ton but I always had to kind of pick from like hey this guy would teach me about this and then someone else would teach me about something else but I think just the the idea of like how you approached skip who's you know I'm not exactly a guy that that is looking to bring on a bunch of people to mentor I mean I'd say anything but that really and yet you ended up in a position where you get to absorb as much knowledge as you can possibly get from him but you know that's a endless you know infinite amount of information but actually I think it was Jill I think Joel was telling me that he could be like he'd like a look at the weather and he'd be like oh you need to go here at 2:30 in the afternoon and it's gonna be good for about 48 minutes like that kinda yeah he said it's there isn't knowledge of the water to win the tie exactly and that's so I'd be at state coming down with my board my car hey skip where you know I've got two hours where you know I'll go here and sure enough you know and then just surfing with them now we'd go down and do the cliffs runs that those are like some of the most amazing sessions ever you know we've had a couple birthday sessions my birthday in October decent-size South swells on our you know 10 6 and 11 foot boards going 8 down and 3 up and it's amazing yeah it's hard it's you don't see people you don't really see many people doing that much anymore you know it's just yeah hope Skip gets back down there this winter though yeah yeah and I think just again as like almost advice is like what the approach you took was hey be humble be persistent you know show up absorb don't run your mouth you know you weren't like hey can you be my mentor hey can you be my mentor hey can you be my it's like yeah you know hey kid do you mind if I just sit over here and just watch like and you proved that over time hey and and then he's probably watching you surf and he's watching you I'm sure you were bringing him boards and going hey what do you think of this and he's yeah probably having a chuckle at some of them and then oh yeah at least being able to say hey a little bit of this a little bit of that it's gonna get you yeah we're gonna be you know fin templates are where to put the fins and all that stuff I mean I still get nervous to ask him for stuff I mean we're like tight and it's still I go hey skip what do you what do you think about you know and that's the other thing he's so giving he's like he he'll give it all away you know what I mean he really is this most humble giving person when uh when I was let's see I guess it was maybe 10 you know maybe a little bit longer that years ago but you know my son surfs and he's he loves surfing and he's been surfing since he was a little kid I remember I got a story yeah okay couple well we would see occasionally we see skip and and you know I'd tell like that day that's skip right over there that's he didn't eat me Tom Weston look kind of like paddle over look at him you know be on at this time he used to ride this red foamy yeah it was yeah I forget but it was it was like as nice of a foamy as you could get but you know he was eight years old and and I would take him out on big days I mean he would surf every swell but but then you know I was still in the Navy and you know he really wanted a skip and he wanted us get bad and you know I was a dad in the Navy with no money and how am I gonna get my son to skip cuz they cost a lot of money and eventually I got I got a guy up in like Dana Point and I found it on Craigslist and he had the most absolutely destroyed skip that you've ever seen like an eight-oh winner egg and it was 300 bucks so you know what kind of condition it was in for 300 bucks it was an awful condition I drove up there my van I paid this guy 300 bucks and that was that was Santa Claus brought Santa Claus brought skip fry to my son we still have that board and he's like never getting rid of this board yeah oh my god pretty sweet honey your story about your Senate I'll never forget it was North garbage and surfed there a lot growing up and it was a decent sized day and like you know you know caught a wave and I'm going through and and and I see you and your kid like just in like the danger zone and and it's this is before I got really crowded with you know kind of the beginner surfers this is still crew back then holding it down and and I'm like hey man you're gonna get your kid hurt out here and like this like like 55 barrel drum like sits up and just looks at me I go I was like I know that look guys just gonna get it was it was Thor is that winner yeah like man and then and then the next winner taking off in the front of your house and here it's just see him just getting shoved in in front of him like that guy again you know yeah I remember those eyes I was cracking up once we became what's you know we reconnected and I think that was that guy man I was a totally cool like there was no there was definite people yeah keep you so young and I'd have mount on man days you know like straight man day there's no there's no kids out you know I know Jonnie I'm gonna hurt your kid man don't worry Chuck when they maybe we'll see man I just and now like looking back it's just that was classic yeah but I'm so your kids turn into a good good boy good kid yeah he's uh he surfs a lot I know that huh I remember doing that so what's the what's you know where you guys at right now where what's kind of what's the status of Josh Hall surfboards at this moment okay so flat let's go from 2010 spent a big summer over in the Basque Country just surfing and Chafin and and and then coming back I'd moved into the complex where skip was at Bob mittens in there and Michael Miller and Jim Ellington and at the time and all legend guys and I would just I would just shape shape shape okay I'm going another trip shape shape shape going on another trip and just slowly building you know I got a website you know I'm on my third website now and so that helped people could at least see models and I had one guy Japanese guy at that time selling mostly customs he lived here but he'd sell him and ship him and then we parted ways it's been six years ago and because I'm seeing Chris's model Chris had a great distributorship in Japan I was like I want that man because it's like consistent boards every month you know 10 15 20 30 who knows what you know numbers he was doing but I was like that's how you make it you know you got to get a distributor so we parted ways I went to Japan for the green room festival which is like a music art surf themed festival and had a couple contacts here in California that were Japanese surfers and so they sort of fished around like hey you know Josh walls coming to Japan wants to get a distributor start you know doing some real business not just hey I got ten custom orders this month sweet oh I don't have anything now for the next two weeks like something consistent and that's why I've found Holy Smoke who's my distributor now CEO XI and we're just September with six years so and that's been great not a ton of boards but consistent and so that once that happened then it was like okay breather let's get caught up on some debt here so I can breathe and then and then slowly go you know shop in New York started selling my boards quite a bit and then just doing that then I'd go to Europe each summer and bang out you know 40 50 boards and so I kind of had to go all over to get kind of a consistent base but um was there a tipping point where your boards sort of elevated to the status that they are now where they went from like pea surfboard to like oh that's a Josh Hall um maybe maybe other people could say that better than than me I just still try to shape a better board than I did yesterday and I don't I mean again I've been real fortunate to work with the best glass shops in San Diego which helps and thankfully they worked with me and that kind of helped and I think with the consistency I think the people seen that consistency like whoa josh is doing this in Japan he's doing that maybe that's helped create an an gonna die used to go to New York twice a year for the fish fry event in May then I go back in September for the film festivals so I think just the moving around and maybe that helped create sort of that like well those boards are New Yorker I don't know I think somebody else might be able to well I mean the other obvious huge thing is you're like you're just quite frankly known as skip Fry's protege and that's what people think like oh maybe I can't get a skip fry because I don't have that much money or I don't have that much time or I just can't make it happen but man I can get a Josh all and that's a huge part of it too I mean obviously right yeah yeah that's I guess I should say that that's like the first thing yeah yeah that's like without that goes without saying and before you didn't go without saying fur I mean you can't just show up oh yeah I'm gonna shape words like like skip fry does you know you can't that just doesn't that that's not gonna work you gotta you gotta earn that and you know just cuz the board Oh looks like it might be like it no it's got it's got a it's got to have a little bit more depth than that yeah I think at some point and surfing yeah that's true skip told me in the beginning goes look if you want to do this as a career or a hobby like if you want to surf just worry about shape and don't try to do everything yourself and there's craftsmen out there that do and I hats off to them I mean I think I've built five or six boards maybe start to finish and my whole time building boards so the guys that do that I mean that's hard work I mean you might be able to do four six boards a week like that if you're laminating thinning sanding you know all that polishing I mean that's tough so I guess I just wanted to surf and then pill hurts yeah and you got to have all those skill sets because none of those things are easy no and I tell you what well we'll get to where the position I'm at now but there is a severe lack of talent in the pool right now most of my crew now that is working for me they've been building boards long and I've been alive and if one of them goes down like we're up shit creek and so and it's really and that's something that's changed with with like you said earlier with YouTube and the Internet like a kid that wants to shape a board now can go do that uh-oh I can buy a coming package oh sweet I don't even have to think about it and they can go online and watch this guy shape or watch that guy shape so now it's not we're sort of you know you had to pay dues yeah like when I wanted to learn like yet again packing boards and sweeping up the shape and room and then maybe a little hot coat here and then you might try to sand here but it was like baby steps you know because it was having to learn from the ground up and now the big shift is everybody just goes straight to the top they don't want to mess with resin or sand boards and get fiberglass and their pores and you know it's it's a and it's so hard and that's the one thing people what makes a quality board it's like everything makes a quality board and you know the Sanders got to re-sand it to my shape based on how good his hot coat was set up and how clean the fin cut I mean so - I don't take it for granted because I get around enough to see other boards that are out there but then when I come back to our shop it's like okay yeah I can see the difference in quality and this is and it's it's funny it's only been three and a half years now with the shop which I'll get to that story but what we're what the crew what we try to like fix now are like my new little things compared to three years ago when we started and and and again you know it takes adjustment to the room you're in it takes the you know the light whatever it takes time to gel and the team's going pretty good yeah it's so right now it's yeah so three and a half years ago again Jeff McCallum he left that one factor here in back in 2009 and then that's when I went and shaped in a in a garage and that same complex that skips in he goes hey man and he had this shop for five years hey I'm gonna get out of this and you know the owner or whatever right you know it's something had gone down and end of his lessee goes I'm gonna go try and buy a building so would you enter what you want to maybe take this over and I was like okay well and my business partner Dave he and I had been talking for maybe six or seven years and how he he's obsessed with surfing but he comes from like the finance world you know and I've known him for 20 years PB surf club member surfing the point bird walk and all that stuff and we'd surf Shores and we'd always talk about business but I didn't we didn't know how he would fit like inside Josh all surfboards and then I told this opportunity came up maybe to take over a small glass shop just down the street from where as that and he goes huh so he started thing he comes back the next day okay let's do this let's start a new company we're 5050 50 liability everything investment you know why go profit all that stuff he goes I go sure but here's how it's gonna be set up I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing which is traveling around surfing and shaping I will make it so that you guys have foam every week and he goes okay and so he's run the shop he's like he's actually he's involved in he does all the hot coding on the decks and the resin loops and he pays the guys the order stuff it he basically he runs it I just make sure that there's foam they're organized hopefully by Tuesday at noon every week because that's when we start on start batches but so that so Jeff had given me a year to kind of like suss it out because there's no I can't just go hire somebody to laminate color tint jobs you know I can't go we started putting the word out started with my sander Wade who was working at diamond glassing and who's also a fry guy and so we've always gotten along and he goes well I know of one so he kind of put us onto a laminator and then I knew a guy that could sand and also do fins and and then we had a polisher that I had worked with back when I worked at Chris and like oh three Alfredo who's still around and so we just kind of put it together and and it's funny looking back now is we'll do fifteen packs and we could barely do six back then like six was a big week for I think we did four packs that first couple months so and then in that time you know diamond glassine shut down and we picked up the Glosser polisher there and also the fin laminator guy John that puts the fins on so it's really become this like real tight crew and again Legends beyond me I mean these guys have been building boards for 40-plus years I just happen to be the kid that's giving them foam you know so really super thankful and Dave runs a super tight ship you know there's not there's no money in glassing so if we can squeak out 20 bucks a board that's what we're doing so we're trying to change it though but slowly everybody needs to do it together right every shape or every glass shop yeah needs to work together and hey like eight people touch that thing and they're making 10 bucks an hour come on you know so we're trying to trying to elevate you know everybody kind of talks and oh yeah well my wholesale on this boards this now oh okay you know it's tough it's right now there's there's a group of us taking you know quality and prices so everybody can actually make a living or hope to up and then yeah there's still guys that they give their work away and I'm like well we can charge more you're worth boyar you feel boards for you know this guy this guy and for 35 years like come on don't be because they're scared think oh if I up my price I'm not I'm not gonna have any orders mmm but you gotta kind of trust in it we came out swinging like I remember when we started no 6 it's like no this is my minimum here it is and it's just slowly gone up from there you know yes it's the classic I'm you're doing something in America you're building something in America you're building the highest-quality thing that you can build what we've yeah with what we can what we're allowed to you know chemical wise and stuff it's getting pretty tight in California you know but we've got all the permits we're doing it right so and all that stuff costs money a lot of money and that's that's part of what that's part of the American Dream it's what you fought for yeah a fall for Dave that for us to have these opportunities go out there and in living this country and proudly this guy yeah yeah this guy for dragging my ass to the beach every weekend come on man yeah actually today I think we're we're moving into the suite next to us I need a bigger shaping room and a little I've been building some stock boards and putting them on the website and that's actually proved to be nice because it's like oh you've sold the board and you didn't you were surfing you know so that's been cool so we're gonna kind of have a nice you know wall front where we can at least display the boards properly and and take good pictures and that way guys are more informed and such try to work on the blog I've been blogging in a long time but I used to be super into it yeah well now you're too busy surfing and shaping yeah well listen we've been at it for a while and I don't want to I want to keep you guys up here much longer I think our air conditioning I may have failed to turn it on you know so it's Josh Hall surfboards calm is where is where they can find you yeah on Instagram your main thing about all surfboards on Facebook you're Josh officer reports do you have twitter I don't know no so really have enough time to keep up with those three things little yeah but and uh you know we were talking earlier I'm hoping to get some I want to put some Josh Hall custom t-shirts on the Jacko's store and get them out there so maybe we got like that began yes sir people would be stoked to support an American craftsmen yeah on the day-to-day even if they live in Iowa we they don't surf but they work hard like you know like good Americans do but um do you guys got any any closing thoughts Dave we got to talk about archery oh yeah you're right newest obsession yeah you're obsessed with archery oh jeez Louise yeah well thanks to this guy so his brother was an elk there is an Al Connor used to be and I got a little bow and I was 10 will compound bow and a 3d target and I go blast arrows into that thing and and then they kind of hadn't talked in a long time and through I guess it was listening to Joe Rogan's podcast and then who else and I had some other friends and well so my fiancee Tori's she's grown up shooting bows and guns and both her sisters and of course her dad so he's like well you know my my Fred Bob owns performance archery oh yeah and I was like wait that's the one from from Joe's podcast and I was like okay so he just made the introduction and went up there and and Bob's a surfer I just like wow how cool is this you know and and went up and and kind of started to geek out online there's a lot of info out there there's John Dudley there's stuff he puts out is insane and so I kind of was geeking out and and went up and Bob just need to set me up yeah and man I've been shooting arrows everyday sense yeah yeah well we'll definitely find it after that range which I haven't been to the one up by Balboa Park it's right here not the Cabrillo bridge yeah I mean drive by it every day you wouldn't even know it's there yeah so we'll go up and hit that yeah man we should it'll be fun in and I got some other trips planned for you hopefully going as they say get after it yeah yeah do it man that'd be fun yeah but anything else no not really I you know enjoy this I guess pretty much no I did yeah you good dad no great to hear you and it's an honor to have you on and and I'm telling you people will learn a ton from from what you said and from your experiences and what it looked like from your perspective it's it's awesome it's an it's an honor to have here you here it's the truth yeah and I mean Josh just to see you know what you've taken from your dad and how you've turned that into a business and you found your way you know different people are out there and they're and they're doing different things and and you know I appreciate your service and I appreciate you sharing the Stoke world why yeah man slide the glide oh I just want to say I I was real fortunate besides him and skip I've had a lot of good mentor life coach people my life so that's been a big big deal I've have friends that don't have that and now that we're getting took close to 40 you can see it you know and so I just shout out to those people you know that a lot a lot of help extracurricular ly to get through it all here we are right on and and I'll tell you what for everyone you can see I mean josh is a great example and you know like I was talking about earlier if you're in a position where you can reach down and you can give somebody a hand if you can give someone some help and you can say hey kid come this way or hey kid go that way you know you can have a huge impact a huge impact on their life and getting them pointed in the right direction yeah that's a that's it's kind of too bad people keep that inside them and don't share it I know their experience over their skills mm-hmm I know but you gotta you gotta share yeah you gotta listen yeah that's my grandpa he's like I don't care if you disagree you gotta listen to somebody as they might have something that you don't or maybe they put in a way you didn't think of well you can grow from that I guess to your point where as I just said hey if you're out there and you're in a more senior position reach down and help people out and if you're one of the young bucks out there then like Josh just said open your ears and have a listen because people got some good information for you and they can point you in the right direction so you don't have to learn the lessons the hard way there you go awesome all right thanks for coming on guys thank you thank you and we'll see you in the water all right all right at this point our guests Dave and Josh Hall have the building and awesome to talk to them and wrapping it up there you know talking about sharing what you know yeah with other people and I think it's a good opportunity for you echo Charles to share you know with us what I know yes what you know all right I know this when we start you just do I know what kind of gear we're gonna get so okay well uh we won't dilly-dally how about that I not dilly-dally you know that I'm not gonna make that leap clay in how about this I'll try not to dilly-dally okay start talking about jujitsu all these things it's very dilly-dally prone prone scenarios scenarios subject matter yes anyway people starting to Jitsu people already in jujitsu people doing jujitsu for 15 years here's the key you get origin why not only is it made for jujitsu it's made in the USA all of them boom best skis by far many different selections could of origin main calm they got some new stuff out too by the way denim coming come it's not out well you know well by the time whoever you are in the world listening to this it could be it could be out could UFO I saw the picture on online so - as far as ears in my head it sounds just a matter of time before it's on on me my body habitus just learn no body habitus yeah yeah okay i misused it slightly but i'm practice going anyway also then they got t-shirts and hoodies daughter's rash guards yes for the noogie jiu-jitsu or you know when you're not doing jiu-jitsu when you're resting on rest days that are kind of cold joggers sweatsuit when people ask can i do work out and do jiu-jitsu on the same day this is a complete yes yes you can and I'll tell you this I think you can do jujitsu every day and if you can't do jujitsu every day because you're physically impaired from doing it because the impact of the jujitsu itself yeah you're you're not training jiu-jitsu correctly yeah what too hard is when you're going too hard you're using too much strength through using too much muscles yeah if you can't train jujitsu everyday you're going too hard I'm not saying you might not be sore cuz you probably will be you maybe I should say if I do a bunch of hard ground the next day I can feel it right but I'm not sore like I can't work out I'm sore like oh I'm definitely trained hard yes right a good way yeah if your training to the point so hard so psycho that you can't train that means you're going to argue using too much strength so you should relax yes I agree well unless you're training with you with you since you can never train with yourself and you don't know this but speaking from experience so I train I haven't trained hard in really a long time train with you and you know what I wouldn't even say we were really going hard like I've gone going yeah yeah look at all well you know whatever I said there there were times where I sensed a sense of urgency in a few times anyway my neck hurt my neck hurt real bad but right up until the the threshold of not being able to like work out yeah it was it was soreness it was I wasn't hurt I wasn't injured of her that is just from resisting chokes resisting the chokes yes exactly Louis and I knew we were trying to resist the chokes nonetheless that's ego-driven statement no no no yes I was a little ego creeping out yet I want you to know that I choked you yeah you know that's just you go I shouldn't like yeah well you know you did a good job yeah yeah this is what I showed some heart yeah result is out type of good yeah thanks bro anyway nonetheless yes work out and do Jiu Jitsu yeah I agree with that actually here's the thing though people's training philosophies differ they differ ya know like some people they're trained philosophy hey you get the most out of your trained good point you know but these are typically and I tried to kind of compartmentalize or kind of break it down to myself right where in my opinion and there's just from my my personal view like I shouldn't like yeah I shouldn't be like super sore or I shouldn't be like unhappy to Train jiu-jitsu you know true I shouldn't be like from jiu-jitsu from juju TIA yeah do you and you when you check steel do you get sore to the point where like oh like I mean I imagine if you do chest day is then you're not gonna be fired up to do chest day the next day correct right so that's that's okay well yeah different like a hard chest day is not gonna interfere with your jujitsu day never know there are times but let's say I have done much traveling had done a lot of squatting and then I go squash my sometimes my legs I'll get the Dom's sure and it won't it won't stop my jujitsu training however it is a noticeable factor that I have to contend with out of youth that does happen yeah but the opposite shouldn't happen which is I trained jiu-jitsu and now I feel like I can't work out because I'm so sore in this particular body part can you get your elbow straightened out a little extra yes you can does that interfere sometimes yes it does yeah and those are that's like an anomaly that's not a not a plan a part of training you know get your elbow straightened out and kind of slightly the unlike row injury situation or and this is only if that's the plan so if you're like hey I'm gonna train jiu-jitsu Monday no jiu-jitsu Tuesday I'm gonna lift Tuesday instead you know like some people they have that plant you know where you're not gonna do a two day scenario then yeah don't train don't train twice a day or twice in a row I don't agree yeah no I dig it but you should never be in what I was thinking of you should it should never be like this hard like grind to the point where you're unhappy you know like no one no one should be a tea tree never originally yes you should you should be like you know what I don't feel like doing this I'm doing it anyways right yes that's fine yes nothing wrong with that yeah every time you feel like a maybe I don't want to train today doesn't mean you get to not train right don't train anyways well it does you did sue because in jiu-jitsu if you're like every time you don't necessarily feel 100% like training then you're not gonna train when you should be training yeah most of the time you're gonna get something out of it if you maybe instead of doing 12 6 minute rounds you say you know what I'm gonna do some movement I'm gonna get 4 rounds and maybe do that instead yeah because you're feeling because you do have to do one thing I am aware of is if you're tired your percentage of getting injured goes up if if you don't want to be in there your percentage of getting injured goes up because you're being lazy and weak and and those are the type of situations you you get hurt it right you're not paying attention yeah and that's exactly what I was thinking that whole thing work where you know it's kind of going in circles with the thing where it's like you should never like be unhappy or not want to train you know kind of scenario but I and then I kind of was like wait but there are those times where it's like that's kind of part of jiu-jitsu like the adversity element is part of it yes and but here's the thing when you train that adversity element you're like you kind of you want to do that it's like in it's like invited adversity kind of thing do you know just like how you just said where it's like hey if you're I don't know or whatever situation and you don't want to go 10 12 rounds so just get some movement and go four rounds boom you just went to that voluntary you know place into in your jiu-jitsu seem sane so it should unless then on top of that it depends on who you are oh really voluntary place okay so if you're like hey like okay here's a different scenario then if your competitor like this is Mike my goal is to be a competitor now that's a whole different scenario where especially if you have a coach and training partners and all this other stuff oh there's gonna be days where you hate it so usual iterally but you forget something you literally would choose to not be there literally like I'm not gonna be here today mm-hmm but then you have these external elements including your goal your coaches training partners like all these things who have the same goal or whatever so there's kind of like a bigger picture there so you have to endure that like hey I don't want to be here and I don't like jujitsu you ever felt that before no I don't even like jujitsu right now like why am I doing this No occasionally I'll joke about it yeah but I don't actually feel it when I was competing in a had like a competition like goal like I would feel that sometimes yeah that kind of this is dumb like why I want to do this yeah anyway it's different your scenarios different anyway nonetheless back to the Jeep speaking of scenarios like that this is a no dilly-dally scenario yeah well you know that was like 13 minutes nonetheless back to the gig it though or Jinky get Origen rash guards that's what you do no question no question also supplement so when you are sore see you don't have to be that sort unless you can be less sore yes I know this firsthand George ever don't wear fur and krillen both that's that that's the double the double whammy yeah yeah so you don't have to be that sore discipline you can take that maybe if you're not feeling I will vouch for this yes on a day where you're like well I don't know maybe I'll only do three rounds but I'm gonna make myself go in there by the way I'm gonna drink three scoops of discipline before I go you know how many rounds do you end up doing nine so I will vouch for that that is a factual thing that will happen yeah you don't feel like it I will mix up you know I'll mix up a lick ha you know what I really feel like going but I'm just gonna go because I have to because that's the discipline so then I mix up three scoops of discipline 20 minutes before I leave my house music I'm drinking on the way I kind of drink it get here and all of a sudden I get out on the mat clerks is second rounds it kicks in and I'm like you know we did another round another get another round yeah so uh coincidentally mmm the other day when we trained mmm we haven't trained a long time I've been out yeah yeah we trained that wasn't the plan the plan was not to train you just to record for me anyway it's not like I planned not to train I didn't plan to try I was gonna record boom go home that's that that's the routine that's the scenario I did take strangely enough two scoops of dis before I came in and I'm not joking I've totally did so and then you couldn't resist my was like are you gonna try it or what yeah all like you know the post recording plans they're all still there you know and you're like hey let's train it's like noon at that time so other people are here you know there's the buzz you know the buzz of training here in the air that was going on the two scoops you know the buzz of that is going and you're like hey let's train I don't have any clothes to train by the way so you know what I do I go downstairs buy a towel first shower after bought one uh borrowed shorts I went to buy shorts but there was no unknown in my size for sale um and I just used the shirt that I recorded we have skinnies shorts yeah they did actually because I went insult no Oliver was there who's a smaller guy than me so he is the shorts are smallest the only ones available I wore his shorts and you know he's one of these trendy guys so they're kind of shorter shorts oh and striped and maybe like half a size too small or whatever boom whatever no flashy leave done intimidated by your shorts and that skinny means yeah my whole thing anyway the point is when you take those two scoops of discipline yes it does push you into those either more rounds or just rounds when you didn't even plan on doing rounds like in my scenario yeah there's also we just made a discipline go it's a it's a go pill it's got discipline sometimes you don't have time to drink the entire discipline you have time to mix it you got to get a little expedient hit a little in the girl a little hitter on the go so you can just pop some of the discipline go pills little little nootropic action a little bit of caffeine to get your give that get that a little bit going get you a little bit going yeah so that's that that's out now too and then after you do the Jiu Jitsu then what well you got a recovery alright boom milk milk drink it right on it well tray an additional protein along with your protein that you eat with your food exactly right the steak and boom you're good to go what can be used as or it should be used as a dessert I'm just going to there you go it can be used to hurt it can't lose my whole thing but the thing is what you're failing to remember is it can also be used to replace whenever you are going to eat like a meal yeah like breakfast milk and dinner when I have from what I have for lunch and Avalon cherries have milk and what I'm not only satiated I'm full and I got a I got like the happy palates you you know cuz I tasted something good yeah well okay I'll go ahead and agree I don't like the word satiated you know cause I mean it means what you think you mean yeah like well I don't even know I mean what does it mean that you don't like the word / yeah it sounds kind of like I will agree with you kind of painful recommended dessert that's my recommendation oh there it is anyway Mulk that's it how many of what flavors now well you're always coming out with a new flavor I think the darkness actually darkness dark char is it dark chocolate yeah okay good because you can kind of taste extra chocolate also for your kid marks cuz your kid is getting fed garbage that's trying they're trying the world is trying to make your kid week yeah and out of shape and you want your kid to be strong and powerful so you give them Mulk what are you give them for dessert Mulk what do you give them that's what you give them they don't want ice cream anymore they know your kid knows ice cream makes him weak they know that and if they don't know that they should you should tell them so let them know that warrior kid milk it tastes delicious and yet it's good for you yeah so get some of that the so Halloween just recently was passed or came or whatever we just finished Halloween right now so I contemplated just giving milk out in stenick instead of candy yeah but then you got a mixie got please little cups and all this stuff and then I don't really have any Dave Burke good deal emailed me or he we were we were talking and he says my goal next year is that you have Mulk kid warrior kid milk in packets that we can give out for Halloween he said it's just there's the omen that's the only way it should be yeah actually that makes sense yeah that's the only way Asian you know how you like milk it should be on the milk train everywhere I agree you say that I think that you know how there's like right now you can flip on the news and you can see like obesity in America if everyone just gets on the mall train we'll just be like America's now you love America no yolk what happened they're tracing it back to a strange podcast that talked about a a a formula that they called mole and the children they started to drink it and now the children of America or yolked yeah the prep Wanda did it well actually that's good because you say like oh yeah that the industry is making your kids weak or whatever is trying to make your kids yes but here's the thing that is true yeah here's what they know they advertise they make little cartoony advertisements to eat this sugar well yeah it's you know as as an informed or in my case quasi informed adult and you cannot get you can't kind of sit back and watch the commercials look I see wonder why they chose that yeah commercial to market their thing and a lot of their brothers question marks everywhere these these commercials nowadays anyway yeah when you get a Snickers bar right breath Snickers satisfies to you like basically saying hey if you're hungry eat this Snickers man yeah it's good it's great might as well just be good for you because it has peanuts in it like brothers like there's chocolate and caramel you know like these things are not good for you but anyway so they're like sameness they're like hey this satisfying you this is this is what you want when you're hungry they're straight up making you ache straight up that's like you it's hard to argue even that that's their here's the deal though we can't we can't just blame you can't blame the food right you can't it's not allowed I'm not blaming you have to blame yourself now at a certain age your kids are eating what you put in the fridge if you put weakness in the fridge they're gonna eat weakness if you put strength in the fridge they're gonna get strong if you put milk in the fridge they're gonna get yoked there you go so the choice is pretty obvious in my opinion also stay on the path while representing get a shirt at Jacko's store chocolate or calm that's where it is so you can share it this balloon equals freedom this shirt that jock will always wear is every single day of his life his life victory MMA and fitness black one a lot of cool stuff I'm on there in my opinion represent the path if you like something get something this hoodies on there as well rash guards more rash guards for jiu-jitsu or anything yeah or surfing relief babban made a comment on instagram on the origin Instagram feed sure they put a picture of Pete put a picture of me Pete and be little in New York City so no and Lafe made some comment about my truckers hat yeah something about like you know Hoss and 90s called and wants their hat back I actually didn't even realize that's how just completely out of touch in my mind this wasn't even a topic like my my hat was something from the 90s that wasn't even that fought never never crossed my mind yeah well is that strange technically life babban is not correct if he was doing what I think he might have been doing I didn't see that comment so I don't know nor did I talk too late for buddy yet so I don't know currently but this is my guess he was referencing the fact that trucker hats were trucker hats and then they kind of were went out they were really a style and then you know the whole retro phenomenon where it like I said rata bass style emerges from some you know thing so one in the distant past you sure yeah so when the trucker hat came back as a style it was not in the 90s if I'm not mistaken it was like after 2000 okay I'm pretty sure I don't know cuz I only wore yes I must say I think I had some flex fits along the way yeah flex fit well yeah good news about both of those scenarios is we have trucker hats on Jaco store calm and flex fit represent discipline equals freedom on your head in whatever way you want retro 90s 80s 2000s 2018 whenever you like however you like you can get the Deaf court hat yes you can that's the head he was talking about yeah yeah cuz I was wearing the Deaf Quran which apparently is now in 90s hat no yeah you know what I think and I'm gonna ask him to confirm but I think he was just mad you had the Deaf crashing out by his own terminology or with his own terminology Hughes drink in the hater-aide did Lafe bath and busted drink in the hater-aide yeah you know and yeah some cool stuff on there again jockle story comics you want to represent on the path also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on itunes and stitcher and google play and all these podcasts places wherever you listen to the podcast go to subscribe if you have not already also on youtube we have a youtube channel yeah we do that's where the videos are posted sure you can see Dave Hall you can see Josh Hall you can see what everyone looks like you can see what echo Charles looks like you can comment about the size of echo Charles's arms and about how echo Charles does not look like his voice yeah yeah yeah cool there's at least one person on every one of our videos that says echos looking Jackie I think the only reason that echo posts these videos is so that he can read through all those comments and see someone says echo looks good maybe look at that anyway no guilty also where you keep odd casts don't forget yes or your kid podcasts that is also out there and should have some more of those rolling out let your kid listen to warrior kid podcast and if you need to ask questions for uncle Jake you can do it through my social media and I will pass those questions on to Uncle Jake himself and get the answers for you also the warrior kids soap from Irish Oaks ranch calm actual warrior kid is they called worry kids so part chuckles so it's called name Chaco soap but I'm a warrior kidding me yeah from a warrior kid named it yeah I'm just calling it warrior kid I just call warrior kid soap yeah well it's kind of is yeah he's out there getting after three hundred percent american-made you know at a whole new level mmm-hmm so from the beginning Irish Oaks ranch calm also psychological warfare that's the little album with tracks where I will tell you why you should or should not carry out something that you know you should or should not carry out and we are working on the next psychological warfare album and we'll let you know when it is out so you can get some of that and if you have suggestions recommendations if you want to know how you should do something sure or not do something yeah briefly refrain yeah let let me know and we'll see if it makes the cut yeah yeah I think since there's a lot of them out there as some people are like hey can you can you do a track about you're not putting croutons in your salad because that's that specific even though that's might be a little broader than you think that batons taste good and we know they're not good for us yeah but you're like have you read like you're like yeah you know it's just a few croutons so it's no big deal yes a little bit of croutons well then you if you were to assemble your croutons mmm you know on the plate you probably got a slice of bread there you know yeah that's true yeah then you realize oh I'm I'm off the path I didn't even hit it to myself told myself a lie well what about like it and then you got a go but that's like one of those specific ones like ketchup - how much sugar is in catching a lot you know people they'll put ketchup on yeah or even when you when you go through you know the burger place yeah grass fed hopefully um and you were like hey do you want the meal I need a psychological warfare for that no think about it no meal /no up sighs no up sighs yeah yeah it's kind of like you want supersize that yeah well the super-sized only comes with the meal so cuz you can't just supersize a burger unless you had an iPad I'm always okay when I was give me three patties on that thing but there's nothing wrong with that I'll do that too like if I didn't if I'm fasting or didn't eat that much or whatever and then I get it like a hard workout I want to do that or how much better does food take taste after you fasted for you 24 hours 48 hours and 72 hours I would say 25 to 35 percent better how much better does it feel to eat when you know that you've just earned it it feels better yeah what percent is you can't 50% just just to get that feeling it's worth fasting yeah just to feel how good it feels to be like I totally earned this I don't need anything in 48 hours I'm gonna just get this burger on right now yeah and they're not recommending you break the fast with the burger because that might not be smart especially if you're having fries with it no fries that's the thing you don't bread it's weird I have not eaten fries and I like fries oh really friends it could hold the line on the fries I have been for the past like one year old today I just had some fries well some of us are on the path it's all good bread you're the man have your fries but if you're having weaknesses or moments of weakness for fries that's another sight and that is maybe that should be an album category I'm saying oh nothing no I'm not saying yes I'm saying that's a specified yeah I don't know there's any like with croutons you know probably having a salad there's a whole rationalization that takes place there fries there's no rationalization they're just like I'm straight-up eating fries right now you're right you're straight-up wrong except before they taste good really good yeah I I respect the fact that you don't eat fries for one year good job yeah if you weren't drinking Mountain Dews cokes I'd have more but yeah okay well you know first things or baby steps rate one step at a time I think Pete Roberts mmm-hmm he he's like he's in the neighbor okay he's a food in a blur oh okay yeah yeah okay I'll be with Pete he's just like you know he just get out just gets after it and I'm with him and I'm like well you know what he's the one that had these he's the one that inspired the whole cake scenario that went down when I was in Arizona okay I work with him and it's like we I'm like look I'm not eating cake that's not happening that's like a whole thing it's just not eating cake so he orders like a son no he orders this this crazy milkshake that had whipped cream quote for the table right yeah I never said well I'll have a little bit I'll have a little bit next thing you know it just cake everywhere ice cream all right way that's good Robert enabler yeah so now because that probably like caught you you know and this is what this is what's true you know it did and it's like oh you know what's like over just here haven't seen Pete we're talking business blah blah blah here's a shake and this is what pissed me off because you get done with the shake like we got this shake and he was kind of like a table for that you get done with it and I said I know kidding would rather have drank a milk then that thing because not just because it's better for you because the milk actually tastes better than that thing yeah it's too much man when was less than he had like a regular like a milkshake I don't know probably probably month or two okay so I had a regular milkshake and I was hungry too yeah I cause like this and it was from jack-in-the-box Oreo cookie shake yeah and while it's not too much though exactly right now that's my point so drinks on the first like two three four five six hits you're like is a good shake and then you're like well I don't want to waste it you know so you kind of push yourself to be exact and then you finishing it like man I can't finish like it's not it you know the duty called diminishing returns you know after about halfway down and I'm like man you don't even feel good but try drink a milkshake and I drink the big one to the double sometimes triple scoop in the big 30 ounce thing right you get halfway you're like more you just want more like a sour through the whole thing it's good yeah so even the experience of it going down is better than a scenario yeah so mo call away also what I failed to mention last time maybe the time before is when we buy that when we get the book that we cover on this podcast and when we sometimes have the privilege of having the actual author in this room with us I listed them on the website chuckle podcast.com book section mmm actually you did say that actually last time oh but yeah I got them listed right there boom so you don't have to go searching or try to remember hey what episode was this book or what book was on that episode I got it listed right there boom click right through there take it Amazon one day boom you got it got it that's the way it works also to vary up your workout you need some rings if you don't have rings for your home gym a lot of people getting their home gym now let me see it online yeah my neighbor we went trick-or-treating so I see his garage is open got a little scenario going on yeah just like you know how people convert their whole garage which i think is a bold yet good it's a good move in California it's real easy to do that in in other parts of the country you need that garage for vehicles in California not happen yeah so I mean and that's really that's kind of the point where it's it's kind of like that's a only call like a specific decision that you see someone made they're like what's more important housing my vehicles yeah the family vehicles by the way yeah or creating a gym in California what I'm saying is in California that's not a big sacrifice not as big yeah in Iowa that's a big sacrifice when that when that dude converts his gym you're gonna go raj to a gym in Iowans like hey guess what you know in February you're gonna be sitting in a freezing car that's negative 20 degrees for at least 18 minutes every morning yeah no but you know what I'm gonna get my double to get my workout yeah exactly right so when you're getting your rings get them from on it they have the best rings that I've seen a granite I don't have that much rings experience but the ones I got a dope get kettlebells on there to me the artistic ones are the best that's my opinion and that's chuckles opinions you know it's actually our debatably I do have an opinion that you should if you need drink something other than milk mm-hmm or you don't need milk at that time you can drink jungle white tea jakka white tea you can get it in cans from Amazon Prime so you have to pay shipping or you can get the teabags and the it tastes delicious and more important most important it guarantees of 8,000 pound deadlift so you do that I also got some books got way of the warrior kid and marks mission appreciate everybody getting those and giving them to kids I get awesome feedback from around the world kids getting on the path if you read this book and you will say to yourself I guarantee you say to yourself I wish I had this book when I was a kid yes every single person that reads that book goes I wish I had this book when I was a kid you should just have a little pre conceived idea that when you get done with it you're gonna say I wish I had this book when I was a kid so what you can do like we just talked about with Dave Hall and Josh Hall what you can do you want to help out a kid go on Amazon go to your local bookseller and get that book and give it to a kid bring it to their classroom whatever it's gonna help kids out and it's gonna help kids out a lot speaking of giving if you want to give the gift of discipline to someone that you know get him the discipline equals freedom Field Manual I wrote it but you know what I wrote it and I read it yeah why because I need to stay on the path myself if I would have had the discipline who's made freedom feel mantle sitting next to me if it was me Pete Roberts and the discipline equals field freedom Field Manual I might not have gotten to some of that shake right there that he put in front of me I've been like no yeah that's a lie that's that hole that you just brought up you just brought a glass of lies to this table well that's good because you didn't know Pete was like that we should have known because remember when we were over there admit like yeah like he knows even us like this baklava and all this stuff and the so we should have known but I think it kind of crept up on you like if you would have known like oh I know - the scenario you'd be like oh I'm on look out for your yeah but yeah and Pete no pizza cuts no sick athlete you know what I mean like him he played football and they could basketball and set all kinds of records in La Crosse so he's just like an athletic guy yeah and he probably you know when it wasn't high school just eating everything in sight because he's big yeah he's trying to be yoked so he's just eating everything and now he's whatever he is 30 whatever years old and he's just got that menu in his hand like a criminal yeah good times gonna watch so if you're hanging around Pete Roberts or someone else that's an enabler that makes you feel like it's okay that's gonna bring you down the sorrow the path of sorrow what's the swamps slippery slope oh yeah the swamp so sad the swamps the sadness the slippery slope of the horror if you're around that person if you got the discipline of freedom feel man you can kind of like deflect their weakness with it I was just out there naked naked and afraid just get these order up Sundays and tara misu i just meant to two days with pete no three days with pete no three nights with pete i should say was it three was it too anyways every night there's a dessert scenario next time i've got to bring the field manual with me just to deflect yeah actually to because he's it's not like he's some guy out of shape no capability any warn you in he's warned you in with like the smiles and we're having a good time and everything's fun and he's like you know well let's just would you do you want dessert don't ask me that he wants the only personal world because of you are you gonna get some dessert no one asks me that people don't say hey choco you you want to see the dessert menu they don't ask me that yeah roberts is like hey hey waiter can we get the dessert menu over here for this guy right here this is just a name link so you don't have any training dealing with that kind of scenario you know what i need psychological warfare I'm gonna make a an album for Pete Roberts yeah and it's you know where he gets it from his mom is cooking baklava his wife she she puts candy out in front of him she just gets after it yeah he'll tell me you send me a picture of like a bucket full of it full of Snickers it would be like the hey I'm on the path right now this is what my wife does to me yeah you know yeah there's a whole a whole whole situation you know what's up in the disciplines freedom feel manual that is gonna help you in those situations and if you need the audio tracks it's not on audible.com whatever it's on it's on Amazon music iTunes Google Play that's that extreme ownership that's the book about leadership I wrote with my brother Leigh fabin that is the lessons learned in combat and how you can utilize those same principles for combat leadership you can use them in your business and in your life and then the follow-on to that book is called the dichotomy of leadership it will teach you the hardest part of leadership which is learning how to balance between the dichotomies that are pulling you in opposite directions this is the biggest problem we see we work with leaders all the time and this is the biggest problem that we see with leaders they don't know how to balance that Icona me of leadership so if you are a leader and you things aren't going the way you want them to go the likely reason that that's happening is because you're out of balance if you want to learn that balance that will make you a much more effective leader you want to find an ineffective leader you go talk to a leader you find one that's that's imbalanced that too far in one direction another derails them derails the team you want to get back on track get the dichotomy of leadership also Mikey in the Dragons here's the deal speaking of extreme ownership guess guess what I didn't do I didn't order enough books no I didn't order enough books let me let me let me go ahead and expand on that I didn't order enough books of miking the dragons at all I mean hmm I as you pointed out last time oh oh I used to give my publisher a hassle and say they didn't get it guess what guess who else didn't get it apparently well me yeah well then again look I don't blame you it I we just found out that it's just not that easy to predict you know no actually I will not make this mistake again okay so there it is what did I do did I say well it's because the printers slow or well we're not sure no you know what my fault here's what I'm doing we're running before doing I've done I've then initiated two more runs we're printing a bunch of books this is the good news the good news is well okay the bad news is it's gonna take a little bit of time and depending on when you ordered there might be a little hesitation the good news is these are still I'm running the exact same running the first a dish this is it we're just running first a dish I'm gonna run it for a while so if you still want that first edition order now and let me tell you what order now order now why because if everyone orders right now and it's a bigger number than what I predicted which it could possibly be I need to know that as soon as possible so if you want to get the book my king the dragons please order it ASAP and we're gonna my goal is that everybody has it as soon as possible definitely want to get it to everyone by Christmas because I know everyone wants to get this book for their kids for Christmas yes book review Eko Charles excellent because yes so and I mention this before that's like okay it's a good one sure we're gonna get over our fears which is good it's real effective by the way of that theme meaning that the theme of the book miking the dragon says how to overcome your fears yeah the kind of theme but I'll tell you this that book is a fun book it's like fun it's like it cuz it Rhymes and like all this stuff or whatever and you know part of this is me cuz okay so I'm reading where the warrior kid marks mission the second time around right second time around I read it before you know all the words so I start getting into it turn on the theater with the kids right they like that whatever so you read this Mikey in the Dragons one now you got some rhymes in there and it's like each with marks mission I'm reading like a chapter maybe two chapters a night that's kind of it that's a routine before bed this one you read the whole thing yep straight up plus they don't want you to stop anyway cuz it's like one you know yeah yeah turn on the theatrics with the rhyming and stuff yeah outstanding fun super fun to do like as far as an activity like with your kids reading to them you know there's something added there with all the right means John Bozak who who drew the art and he didn't have a copy yet and I when I was in New York I saw him I brought a copy for him and he's got a good I don't know what I don't know what the term for this laugh is but he's got this laugh that he does almost like a victory laughs I don't even know if that's a thing yeah he doesn't like a laugh where he's so happy mmm that he can't really contain it so I give him the book it's still on the plastic these books are individually wrapped in plastic shrink wrap and so I give it to him he like slowly opens it up because you can still you can see through the shrink wrap but he's doing this laughs this stuff I got first trying to imitate and then he's going through each individual page cuz the coloring is beautiful he said that he said that years ago he said five years ago it wouldn't be possible to do what we did in terms of matching the color that he originally drew the color that he actually used getting it to match perfectly with the book he said that is not possible five years ago yeah well it's not possibly we did it that fast because we did it it came out of exactly the color it's supposed to be normally if it was five years ago you had to print one go like okay make this bring more indigo lien or whatever more crimson or whatever and and we'd have to do any of that it's a boom it's been printed oh guess what it's completely correct and the drawings are beautiful they're amazing in fact what we are going to do and I talked to John about this some of those pictures are so gorgeous where make posters that have these images on them make sense yeah and that way kids can put them in the room yeah and that picture of the Prince walking into the forest with I mean come on he doesn't want that that is just everything he's going to face the darkness he's confident he's moving forward he knows he's scared but he's still going forward you put that picture up on your kids wall up on your wall I'm talking about so I need that image of that image right there that needs to be big and we just need to get it out there yeah so if you want miking the dragons then please order it now so that I know so that I can get it to you as quickly as possible and I apologize that it's going to take longer that is my fault for under estimating how fired up you all would be in ordering that book I apologize and what I'm doing to correct it is ordering enough to kind like the tea when the tea came out we didn't order enough tea and so I ordered more and then that still wasn't enough yeah and then I I said to Emily I said we need to order enough tea that we never run out again we haven't run out again yet I'm not saying it'll never happen but we're at least in a really good spot so same thing Mikey in the Dragons if you want to order it a chillon front that is my leadership consultancy and what we do with that is we solve problems through leadership that's what we do whatever problem you're having with your team or your organization it's a leadership problem so it's me it's life babban it's JP Danelle it's Dave Burke Flynn Cochran Mike's rally and Mike bimah go to Ashlyn front comm for details that monsters in 2019 they are coming one's gonna be in Chicago one's gonna be in Denver it's gonna be spring in Chicago it's gonna be fall in Denver every other muster has sold out I had friends friends contact me and say hey just figure it out we're gonna come to the muster you know I just got four people and as you know let me know when I should arrive and I'm like it sold out they're like huh yeah and I don't know like you can't come there's there's it's done you there's no more place to go in you cannot come and so if you're saying that to people you know that's problematic so that means they sell out this is gonna sell out and so keep an eye we haven't locked down the dates yet but extreme ownership calm is what you can look and get it EF overwatch if you're a business and you need experienced trained leaders inside your organization that understand the principles of extreme ownership and combat leadership if your business like that go to EF overwatch comm we have our peers people we're connected to that are from Special Operations that are from combat aviation and we are bringing them into the civilian sector to help companies and businesses lead and win and if you want to keep discussing and talking about all these things with us we are available on on the interwebs on Twitter on Instagram and on - FAC apology yes first of all Dave Hall he's off the grid he's not you're not gonna connect with him on social media cuz he's in Hawaii cruising super hard not bless him and Josh Aldo Josh Hall Josh all surfboards on Instagram Josh all surfboards on Facebook check out what he post beautiful pictures of his boards you can see what he's doing in the world traveling surfing shaping echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko willing and thanks once again to Dave Hall for his service to the country and for coming on to the podcast sharing his stories and his lessons from war and from life and to Josh also thanks to him for coming thanks for spreading that for spreading that Aloha that Aloha and that Stoke wherever wherever he goes and keeping the routes of surfing planet deep that's awesome and it's much appreciated and it's great to see an American company like yours continue to grow and to the police to military to law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs correctional officers Border Patrol all you are all you all you first responders all you military personnel thanks for protecting our way of life here and abroad thanks for protecting us and our ability to do this podcast to do jiu-jitsu to go out and surf and live our lives thank you all for your service and sacrifice and to everyone else that is listening no matter what it is that you choose to do no matter what that thing is whether you're gonna go into the military whether you're gonna start a business whether you're gonna work for someone no matter what you're gonna do put everything that you've got into it do it to the best of your ability whether you're assaulting a building on the battlefield or whether you're shaping a board in the shed whatever it is you decide to do pour your soul pour your soul in and get after it and until next time this is echo and Jocko out

Channel: Jocko Podcast

Views: 75,727

Keywords: Discipline, freedom, military, extreme ownership, leadership, advice, jocko willink, echelon front, navy seal, jocko podcast, excerpt, echo charles, leader, lead, win, surfing, shaping, surfboards, waves, san diego, vietnam, draft, the draft

Id: kjF9uHZW_QE

Length: 213min 52sec (12832 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 07 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/curcl]

Proper. Organic.