Jocko Podcast 112 w/ Jordan Peterson - Life is Hard. 12 Rules for Life.

this is jaco podcast number 112 with echo Charles and me jakka willing good evening echo good evening I had a friend and someday when I can I will tell you all about him but until then for now I will say that I could not have asked for a better friend did he have faults sure don't we all now most of his faults weren't really that big of a deal but they were raw raw because he admitted to them all openly and directly and naively to be honest in a sort of pointed and heavy-handed self critique he would bear his weaknesses to the world and to me and to himself and he would speak to me as if I had no faults and I would try to explain otherwise but he wouldn't listen he would only judge himself I'm too emotional he would say not really I'd tell him I don't know how to talk to people right sure you do let's say I make the same mistakes over and over and over again he would say we all do I would tell him I was better than him at some things we both knew that there were other things he was better at than me but he always downplayed those things and we both knew that too when we were overseas in a bad place in a wretched place he never complained and I gave him every reason to I put him in the worst locations with the greatest possible chances for failure and the highest probability for fire and theory and blood and death but despite the enemy than the heat and the living conditions and the fear and the wounded men and the screams and the misery that was all around he did not complain it seemed at times that God himself was trying to test the limits of my friend and it seemed like sooner or later the bullets or the bombs would find him but through some incomprehensible miracle he survived through that deployment now I make no claim whatsoever to understand why things in life unfold the way they do in fact I must say that many of the things I've seen in the world make no sense to me at all sometimes it's just utter confusion no rhyme no reason some of the things that I've seen have left me downright disgusted jaded repulsed sickened by mankind and the awful and reprehensible things we are capable of but there's another side to that there's another side and there are other people who do their best to redeem all the evil our souls are capable of my friend was one of those people after deploying with me and surviving that bloody and violent battlefield my friend like most of the guys in my old job he volunteered to deploy again I fought and I told him prematurely and incorrectly that the enemy was done I told him that the war was all but over I told him just do the deployment and sit tight over there and play the game and in a few months we'll be back and we can go surfing and we can play guitar and we can tell stories and we can cook steaks and we can serve some more I told him we could carry on when he got home that was the plan it was a good plan but the enemy gets a vote and there was intense violence during that deployment for him as well it was similar to what we had experienced together overseas an aggressive enemy hell-bent on killing Americans mixed in an urban environment with a terrified local populace he told me that the enemy he was now facing wasn't as tactically skilled as the enemy we had faced but he said that they were braver and more determined that seemed to concern him a bit more he seemed to feel the odds were that he would die he sent me his last will and testament he was not morose about it just stating the facts it's bad over here the enemy is aggressive casualty rates are very high the enemy has new weapons that are extremely capable it didn't look good I waited I waited the long and completely powerless wait one known mostly by mothers and fathers and wives and children that are old enough to understand but a weight also made by the brothers at home that know the risk all too well it was a long wait at my friends and memorial service his brother told a story my friend had talked to his brother on the phone while my friend was on deployment and my friend had explained to his brother in no uncertain terms the situation that my friend was in the enemy was extremely hostile the battlefield was chaotic the attacks were frequent and furious it was violence that my friend had not experienced before this was war unleashed and it seemed to be heading to an inescapable conclusion and my friend's brother sent this even through the phone even thousands of miles away as his brother he sensed the darkness and the overwhelming finality of the situation and he said to my friend do you need anything from me how can I help is there anything that I can do and my friend was quiet for a moment and then my friend made one simple request he said pray for my men now I want you to think about that I want you to think about that level of selflessness that level of faith and of commitment and of care for others that dedication in the face of fear and violence and death to at that moment put others before yourself to do good to be a relic and strong and brave and yet at the same time to be humble and to be willing to sacrifice everything for your friends that's a man and I couldn't have asked for a better friend the world can be a horrible place it's filled with violence and treachery and sometimes it seems that the legions of demonic powers have the upper hand in the battle between good and evil and it can seem that all might be lost and then we remember we see the light and for me the light comes from the example of others in this case another person another human being my friend who despite all the powers of darkness stood up and rejected all that wickedness and proved that there is hope and there is a path to light and we can get on that path if we choose to do so like my friend did and that's life at least as far as I can unravel the mystery that's what I see we are here and the best thing we can do is stand against the darkness and try to spread light in the world but that can be a very hard thing to do because life is not easy in fact it is said and there are very few that would deny that life itself is suffering but there is a way and there is a path and today I have someone on the podcast for a second time that I think can help guide us down that path away from darkness and toward the light dr. Jordan B Peterson welcome back to the podcasts for a second time thanks charlie you were on podcast number 98 last time and if anyone wants to stop right now go and listen to 98 if you haven't listened to it yet and that's a good place to start learning about you and then you could also just google Jordan Peterson and go from there because there's thousands you think there's thousands of hours of you of content of you on YouTube yeah there's there's probably horrible as it is to contemplate yeah there probably is I mean I've contributed about 500 hours probably of lectures and so on but people have been cutting it up and right there's all the podcasts and YouTube videos that other people have made and I think I look the other day because people keep chopping up the lectures and the intros and making little videos and my son and I tried to estimate it last week it looked like 4,000 people had made videos last week in the bank in one week yeah it's really yeah it's crazy it's it really is okay so you've got a new book out and the book is called twelve twelve rules for life an antidote to chaos and you know one of the key points in the book is life is suffering right and clearly I think a the malevolence because it's not enough you know we do a little bonus on yeah yeah yeah so you need to inflict it yeah you know obviously my old line of work we got to see that and we got to see it all the time two things number one where does that come from and I you don't need to spend a bunch of time on that because you've talked about that so much but more important to me what happens when people miss that point well that the suffering seems to be built-in in some sense and and it's a very difficult thing to understand fully because the fundamental question is does being justify suffering it's something like that and and there's this old idea I read this it was a Jewish idea it's it's kind of a riddle and so it's a riddle about the nature of God and so the riddle runs what does a being who's omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent so those are the three classical attributes of God lack thank well that's nothing obviously it's no limitation and so and so that was the explanation for why God created everything but more particularly why God created man it's that there's something about limitation that adds to completeness maybe because it provides something to struggle against it's something like that and in the book and 12 rules for life I talked about what happens just happened to Superman in the 1980s it's like Superman got so powerful that you could bounce hydrogen bombs off his chest you know and he could move planets it's like and then he got boring at the same time because what are you what are you gonna do to him nothing is like he he can just solve every problem instantly well there's no story there and you might say well who cares if there's a story and and that's a reasonable objection maybe there should just be no story at all right that's the Memphis to feely an objection to life there should be no story at all but maybe that's not the right answer maybe it's better to have being even if it requires limitation even if the limitation necessitates suffering even if the limitation and the suffering necessitate evil now a separate issue perhaps there's a way of maneuvering through that a pathway that makes that all not only acceptable let's say at least acceptable that would be a good start but but fully justifiable something that you would voluntarily accept if you have the opportunity Nietzsche Nietzsche sort of caught on to that in some sense with his idea of the eternal return he said you should try to live each moment of your life so that if you had to live that moment recurring for eternity that you would find that desirable it's like it's a high standard man so but but but there's a very interesting point there which is that maybe you can say that despite the suffering and malevolence this is worth it and I think people have experiences like that in their life you know and you can have more experiences if you live your life I would say according if you're on the proper path then maybe your life can consist of almost nothing but experiences like that now you know I say that knowing full well that people get cut off at the knees and that life can be very arbitrary and hard and that everyone is is prone to the the negative consequences of deceit and betrayal all of those things I mean the book the book twelve rules for life in some sense is a very dark book but it's not exactly because the darker the darkness the brighter the light appears it's something like that and you know you say well no life's not so bad you can be happy and I think no life really is bad it's really bad and no matter how bad you think it is it's actually worse than that you can't really get to the bottom of how terrible things can get you know people who have post-traumatic stress disorder know that you know they've hit something so bad that they cannot live with it they have no idea how to live with it and it hurts them not just psychologically but physiologically as well it's very difficult to recover so they have a sense of how bad it can be and then they can hardly live with it but I would say despite that and I would say also that this is the central idea in the in twelve rules for life is that despite that bottomless horror in some sense there is a way of being that's powerful enough to both transcend and justify that in some sense and that has to do with with with the decision to act as if it would be better if things were better that's the first thing and you think well that's easy I'd like things to be better it's no no wait a second there's hatred in your heart and there's resentment in your soul and there's bitterness at your position in the world and there's the sense that you're a victim and there's the anger that goes along with that and the desire to hurt like you have all of that and maybe you have it in spades maybe it's mostly what you are and because of that you do not want things to be better you want to spread some misery out of spite and that's what chapter six is about right and put your house in perfect order before you criticize the world it's about people like the Columbine High School shooters and exactly what they were motivated by because I understand what they were motivated by and so ii wish that things were better means that you have to make a real decision that despite all the flaws of existence the suffering and the malevolence that it's best not to become embittered by that and to work for the betterment of everyone you for sure your family for sure your community but perhaps even your enemies you know if you have any sense you wish your enemies well that doesn't mean you wish them victory it doesn't mean you don't think they're wrong none of that it means that it would be better if the world was set up so that they didn't have to suffer miserably and futilely and evilly as well that would be better and so then you can aim at that now and the best way to aim at that is well first of all they aim at it to actually sort yourself out and think okay well if I could have things the way I wanted them to be that's what I would want right and that takes a lot of psychological organization before you can state that without without what would you say without holding anything back you know because there's that part of you that bitter part that wants vengeance and wants and wants to wreak havoc that's there it's hard to constrain that and then while the other part along with this as well as aiming at the highest good that's attainable let's say is to also decide that you're going to speak the truth in that endeavor and to risk that you know and there's that and because I think those are the things that that help you aren't yourself properly that's the message of the Sermon on the Mount by the way which is aim at the highest good that you can conceive of and act and tell the truth in that pursuit right the the other element there is to focus on the day once you've once you've aligned yourself with the heavenly star right aim high and then focus on the day that's very good advice because it also imbues everything you do in your daily life with significance as to why am I doing this to avoid hell that's a good one let's start with that's like to avoid hell and if you have any imagination at all if you lived in the world at all if you're not naive you know what that means it's not just the hell that you encounter it's the hell that you foolishly produce around yourself and are then responsible for that's a perfectly good sort of hell so you want to avoid that for sure and maybe you want to dare risking making things better it's like that imbue your life with significance and that significance you know one of the things I've discovered learned I would say over the last 25 years is that there's always been a mythological idea or an idea in literature and philosophy that there was a Shining Path you know that you could walk down and modern cynical people believe that that sort of meaning the meaning that would be obtained by walking on that path is somehow illusory or arbitrary and I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that that's true I think that sense of meaningful engagement that what is revealed to you when you're in the right place at the right time doing the right thing that sense of deep engagement that loss of self-consciousness that feeling that things are worthwhile that deep-seated feeling that things are worthwhile that's the most real thing I think I think the neurobiological evidence suggests that I really do believe that and so we're in a fortunate time in some sense but as we can look at those old metaphorical ideas of the of The Shining Path let's say that the golden path forward and we can say yeah that's actually real that's real and that's something and then that's so what's what's so cool about that in my estimation is that and this is why twelve rules for life is actually an optimistic book is like the darkness is real but the light is stronger it's like wow could that be true could that possibly be true I think it's true so that's a good thing to know man that that might be true in and you know the when I was talking about my friend in the beginning in this podcast that's that's why I was talking about it because it was a guy who had every reason to be to be negative and to be dark and to look at the world and just say this is hell it's not worth it but instead what he really did was want to take care of his of his friends I talked about a woman in my book is that someone I met as a client when I was just beginning my psychotherapeutic practice and she just blew me away I've never forgotten her so she was she had a horrible life she was unattractive uneducated no career unemployed so shy you can't even imagine it like you've met someone shy and anxious it's like they weren't in the same universe as this woman she was so shy that she couldn't walk up to people without looking at the ground hunching over and shielding her eyes so that's how she approached people on the street and and she she looked like a homeless person as well and so and she came to the behavior therapy unit that I was working at and hypothetically for treatment and so what we started doing was seeing if we could get her to stand up a bit and look people in the eye more normally so that people wouldn't respond to her as if she was so peculiar you know so we were trying to just to change her behavior but I started talking to her and well she told me a little bit about her life it's like she lived it better she lived where she lived her mother was I think she lived with her aunt who was like a violent schizophrenic alcoholic who had religious delusions and constantly accused her of being by the devil and she had a really violent and abusive alcoholic boyfriend who used to mistreat this woman so that was like home life hey it's like yeah and she had been an inpatient in this hospital that Douglass hospital and that was in the 1980s and the Douglass hospital was a huge hospital about the size of a university campus and it had had a lot of inpatients but they were all let out on the streets when medication became widely available and when deinstitutionalization was the norm but there was a subset of them who couldn't be deinstitutionalized and these were people that you can hardly imagine so I used to go in the underground corridors in the Douglass hospital because it's very cold in Montreal so their underground corridors collecting the buildings and down there there would be vending machines and places for people to sit and it was like walking through Dante's Inferno because these were people who were so damaged you know they've been in a psychiatric institution for maybe two or three decades they could not be released no matter what even though that's what the hospital was trying to do and so it was like Diane Arbus used to go across the United States and photograph strange people and she has a whole collection of her photographs they're quite arresting and shocking and it was like walking through Diane Arbus universe you know and so those were the inpatients and she had been an inpatient from time to time but was well enough so she could also go out and it turned out she didn't actually want treatment she had this dog she used to take it for walks and so that was her source of enjoyment right and she thought I really like this dog and I really like taking it for walks and maybe I could go to the Douglass hospital and find one of these inpatients and take him out for a walk maybe that would be a good thing for him and so the reason she had come to the behavior therapy clinic wasn't to treat all of her problems in life this woman had problems man everything about her life was a problem and in ways that like a normal person just cannot begin to understand you know unless they're in one of those situations in their life where everything is collapsing around them and what she did what she decided was well there's someone worse off that me than me that I could help it's like she just absolutely blew me away you know this poor woman she have nothing going for her while it gets she did a because she had this nobility of spirit that was absolutely indomitable it just I never forgot that it just though she shall lead her into her situation in a way if she's so noble and she wants to help her her aunt that's all crazy and good no no bad she wants to help prop up her boyfriend that's violent no I don't think so I don't think she wanted any of that she was just one of these people it's like you know you can put someone in this situation that's so dire that that there's virtually no escape from it like I've seen people in my clinical practice for whom things around things around them have collapsed so badly that there's just no fixing it there's you fix one thing and two other things break and then you fix those and three other things break there's just no bottom and those are often families that have had multi-generational problems deeply rooted the whole community is pathologized the entire family structure is demolished there people don't have any marketable skills and they haven't for generations the whole situation is complicated by drug and alcohol abuse and and and heavily biologically influenced insanity of one form or another usually conjoined with relatively low cognitive ability it's just it's just hell no matter which way you turn in I didn't see her as a contributor to that I mean I'm sure she made her mistakes like everyone else but she was she certainly wasn't playing martyr or victim she didn't come into the to the clinic to complain to begin with just like she was just telling me these were the situation that she lived in she wasn't that isn't what she was there for it's just that we thought she had come for treatment so we were doing the background analysis you know an intake interview and found out all these things it's like any one of those problems is enough to bring most people's lives to a shuddering halt and yet that was her vision so the reason she had come to the hospital and she didn't just come to the behavior therapy clinic she had gone around pestering administrators in the hospital to let her take the long term inmates out for a walk now they wouldn't do it for you know for all sorts of reasons but that didn't stop her from thinking it was a good idea and it actually was a good idea this was a practical idea like she could have taken people out on the ground because the grounds were huge and walked them with the dog and it would have been fine was there such a thing as pet therapy in 1985 exactly but she had enough wherewithal to notice that well that she liked the dog and the dog liked her and that was a good thing right there little bit of love in the world there and that there was nothing wrong with taking the dog for a walk and that was kind of harmless and why not have someone along they made her feel good she thought well maybe it'll make me feel exactly so like Petey just got to shake your head well that's when I really learned to begin with deeply that there's no correlation between intelligence and wisdom and then that's actually the case technically like if you're smart you can just be like you can be you can be smart and good but you could be smart and bad yeah that's what we used to say okay so we'd get these guys coming in the SEAL Teams that would be for a while we were recruiting just the for the officer candidates really nice guys that were you know they went to Ivy League schools and they were off the charts and 1,600 on their SATs and then they were the captain of this and when they were just these really high achievers and we found that not all of them but certainly some of them couldn't really function in the desert as a leader in the job because they just didn't have the I guess the wisdom to pull it off but they couldn't make the personal connections they couldn't develop a relationship leadership is a complicated thing and it doesn't boil down just to intelligence yeah and I want to make it sound like none of them work aside from work obviously outstanding writing credits leaders but there are some of them that would be the same kind of recruit but they just wanted missing whatever piece that was well intelligence and character are definitely not the same thing they're not the same thing I mean all things considered if you're going to pick one of two leaders if I would pick the smarter leader over the duller leader if all other things were equal you know because well because someone who's more intelligent can strategize more rapidly and can handle more variables right yeah and perhaps can even handle well it can handle a more rapid rate of transformation as well and sometimes that's actually crucial but character and intelligence are are they're clearly not the same thing and characters actually well I don't think anything Trump's character that's that character is everything so you know it's interesting that you with this this woman that you talked about in the beginning you talked about how she's you know she's crouched down and she's looking down at the ground and all that so it's interesting in your rules obviously the first the first rule is to stand up straight with your shoulders back right well when you get for lack of a better word indoctrinated in fact there is no better word when you get indoctrinated into the military that's exactly what's happening and guess what you get taught one of the first things that you get taught is how to stand how to stand properly and you know what they tell you chin up chest out shoulders back they make you stand like that there's no coincidence to that is that it's a you could say it's a dominant stance but that's not the right way of thinking about it although it is a dominant stance the reason to adopt it is not because it's a dominant stance it's a confident stance and confidence tends to make you dominant at least in in hierarchies that are functioning properly because you want there are hierarchies which is what I outlined in Chapter one I say though hierarchies are old they're not socio-cultural constructions they're not a secondary consequence of capitalism and the free mark all of that is absolute nonsense it couldn't be more wrong and as an indication of that I point out that lobsters whom we diverged from on the evolutionary front a third of a billion years ago have hierarchies right and that the neurochemical systems the neural neurological systems that lobsters have runoff that mediate their hierarchical status run on the same chemical that the neurological systems that we use to mediate hierarchy run on so that's just absolutely mind-boggling but lobster like a victorious lobster stretches out and adopts a more dominant pose because his serotonin levels go up as he becomes more and more victorious and that governs posture well and so to stand up straight with your shoulders back is to open yourself up to the world you're not an if you're not in the defensive Crouch of a prey animal technically speaking and that is the circuitry that's governing posture its prey vs. predator or something like that and it to stand up like that is to expose your yourself to the world but in a bring it on sort of manner not not precisely combative but let's say courageous and your posture announces that and it doesn't just announce that to other people it announces that to yourself and it can start it can be one of those things that can start a virtuous cycle occurring which is partly why it's taught in the military get these guys that come in there all slumped over they don't know how to stand up they're looking at their feet their necks are bent like even if they're good-looking men they don't look good because they're all crunched over you see people like this on the street all the time they could be perfectly attractive except they're completely huddled in you know they need to stand up and stretch themselves out and then they can breathe too and that's a competent stance one of the things that the the critics of the modern West don't understand about hierarchies is that first of all they're everywhere they're inevitable if you're going to have a distinction of value between things you have a hierarchy and if you you don't want to get rid of the distinction of values between things because then you don't have anything to do that's foolish it's you can't live that way so they say well the hierarchies are based on power it's like no they're not they're based on competence and there isn't anything more powerful than competence but power isn't tyranny it's not brutality it's not threat it might be the hint of all those things you know because I don't think you can be fully competent without being able to hint at those things but hierarchies in the West are fundamentally based on competence that doesn't mean they're not flawed because we miss the mark lots and there's lots of reasons why perfectly competent people don't attain the position that they deserve and that they should have for their benefit and everyone else's that the hierarchies are tainted by corruption but fundamentally they're fundamentally they're based on competence and and that's so so with that this first rule that you put into that book and you're saying that's a cycle that can go backwards so you don't have to have like the serotonin first and then you stand up if you stand up straight you will somehow increase your serotonin definitely you can actually - you're saying you say you could inject lobsters with serotonin and they start to stand straighter yeah you can weigh 16mm antidepressants so like if a lobster gets defeated in a fight then he's statistically more likely to lose the next fight than you would guess from a Tele of his previous victories so that's the first thing if you lose you increase your risk of further loss but if you win you increase your risk of future gains that's that's a very important principle it's a crucially important principle it governs life but yeah if you take a lobster and he gets all defeated and he's off pouting and won't fight anymore because he's you know having a bad day and you inject him with serotonin essentially give him antidepressants it's the same thing then he'll straighten up and he'll go out and have another scrap it's like and I read that oh I don't know it's probably at least 10 years ago when I was reading about well the the neural physiology of these neuro chemical systems that's why I got on to it it just it was another thing that just blew me away I thought really you're kidding that circuit is that old it's like it's that old Siri you know that's way before there were trees that's how long ago that is and so hierarchy is a patriarchal construction how about no that's wrong it's seriously wrong so I had a mouse talking one of my friends the other night his name is Joe he's got a kid that's wrestling his kid is six years old I think DOM and he says you know he's getting put into the higher category he's kind of getting his but wimp now and I'm really not sure what are you thinking I said well you want him to win because when he wins it's more fun and we has more fun so now I have actual more evidence that you should get your kids in a position again I think your kids should get beat sometimes yeah but they should certainly not get beat down all the time exactly I did that to my kids when when my kids first started you Jitsu I put them oh you're good you're to compete because I'm telling you to yeah and then I'm gonna put you in a higher weight class with older kids because that's gonna make you tougher if that was my you know stupid thinking yeah and now with my younger start I'm like no no you go on you have fun and you go out and you compete against people that are somewhat equal to you maybe a little bit low you maybe a little higher but depending on your mood times yeah yeah well absolutely what well that's I think we could we can think about that also in terms of the conversation about meaning that we started to have it's like if you win all the time that's meaningless because well and you think why because you want to win it's like yeah fair enough so why would winning all the time become meaningless it's because your theory of winning isn't sophisticated enough because here's how you win you play the game to win but while you're playing you play in a way so that you get better at the game right because you're gonna play a bunch of games well it's even more than that you play the game to win but you play it so that you get better at the game okay fine that makes sense so you want to push yourself right because that's how you get better and so you need competition to push yourself so you need to have the risk of loss because otherwise you won't do it but here's an even better way of thinking about it you play the game so that you don't only get better at that game but you get better at the entire set of possible games and that's what you do when you're a good sport it's like well so how do you do that well partly you you find the proper level of competition right so you want to be pushed so that you will make the effort necessary to remove what's useless about yourself and to help foster the growth of what's useful and if you do that then you get the the joy of participating in the game towards victory but the extra joy of building yourself more and more strongly at the same time and so when you tell your kid doesn't matter whether you win or lose it's how you play the game your kid says what do you mean by that and you say I don't know I don't know what I mean by that because the kid says I'm supposed to win our day it's like well yeah so why does it matter how I play the game it's like well then you're stumped even though you're right you just don't know why but the reason is is you want to tell you here's the reason it's like we can make this very simple life is not a game it's a series of games it's actually a series of diverse games ok so who's the winner of this series of diverse games because that's the real question right not who wins a game it's like whatever you win a game it's like if I hold a gun to your head and we're playing chess I could say lose it's like I win it's like well that's not helpful obviously so you want to teach your kid you want to help your kid learn to be the winner of the set of diverse games okay so what does that winner look like well here's the first clue that's the person who keeps getting invited to play you know so because you win if people invite you to play all the time you have opportunities coming to you just non-stop and maybe like let's say you have 50 opportunities and each of them are potentially 50% for you and 50% for the other person you think well that's a pretty good deal and then you think well wait a minute let's flip this around so it's like 60% for the other person and 40% for me I'm gonna be like I'm gonna go I'm gonna overboard in the generosity you think well then what happens well then instead of having twenty opportunities at every moment you have like fifty opportunities at every moment and that's so that's what you want for your kids is you want all the invisible doors around them to open and you do that by sin play nobly right pay attention to your teammates pass the damn puck so they get a chance right even if you're the best player on the team help the people on your team develop don't grandstand right don't if you have the opportunity to beat your opponent 20 to 1 you know in goals it doesn't happen very often but it can especially when kids are playing it's like well maybe after you're up 7 to 1 it's like back off a bit you don't have to humiliate your opponents that's because it's it's what would you say it's contemptible behavior on your part and so and you know that because you go and watch a hockey game or something like that and you watch a kid that really knows how to play it's like they're playing like mad to win they're pushing themselves to be better but they're paying attention to their damn teammates and they're they respect their opponents and you think well that's that's a hell of a kid there it's like yeah that's exactly right that that kids going somewhere dude do kids ever show they get so committed let's say hockey right you get a kid that's just so committed to winning and hockey that he's gonna lose it other games well that's that's all the games in life right that's another that's another problem is like you could be over Borg yeah well well the other thing too is that with sports like you could say well most kids aren't gonna be NHL level hockey players like that's impossible like maybe you should aim for that I would say probably not because it's so damn unlikely but whatever some kids are going to manage that and more power to them say well what are the sports for for the rest of the kids and the answer to that is well obviously there's the physical discipline and the health that goes along with that and the ability to engage in and tolerate competition and learn how to be a gracious winner and a gracious loser but a lot of it is character that all that's part of character building that's what you want just you say well why build your character it's like well how how about that's your set of toolkits for that's your set of tools for dealing with catastrophe how about that for a reason right so one of the things I've suggested to my viewers this is the men in particular but not just the man you should be the most reliable person at your father's funeral that's a good goal man that's a good goal because everyone's broken in a situation like that and you adding to that brokenness and misery I mean you're gonna be grieving like no doubt about it and and no kidding but there's a time to step forward with some character you know and it's the same thing you're gonna be at someone's deathbed you gonna be quibbling with your siblings while you're doing that well your parents dying it's like it's bad enough that they're dying that's tragedy right but you can turn that into hell no problem you just get a bunch of people with no character around a deathbed and it's like well it's bad enough but that turns it into something like hell and that happens in people's lives all the time it's like character is everything so and that's why the wise people of our past tradition insisted upon that they say well don't lie well why not well it destroys your character well so what well then you turn suffering into hell is that what you want maybe you know cuz people will want that but I would say walk away from people like that right that's not unless that's what you want then yeah you've got a lot of I mean it's it's interesting as I'm since I just got done reading the book you know I can hear you just heating the wave drops of all the different rules and they're all interconnected about don't you know don't lie or or or tell the truth or at least don't lie yeah and then you know Hank what's the what's the chapter about hanging around with you can't want to see you do well yeah yeah make friends with people who want the best for you right yeah it's so well it's a really it's a real technical idea so Carl Rogers who's a psychotherapist great psychotherapist I'd very much recommend his books to people especially if they want to learn to listen because he was really good at teaching people how to listen he had this idea that what he would manifest towards his clients in therapy was unconditional positive regard and I've always had trouble with that because well because you don't treat your children for example with unconditional positive reviews there's no matter what someone says you're saying yeah that's a good idea well that's that's why it's tricky well what do you what do you he didn't articulate it I think as well as he might have what you want to do is for your child is that you want the best for the best in them that's what you want and that's what you want from people that you surround yourself with now they'll hold you to a high standard if that's the case right because whenever you degenerate in any of the multiple ways that you're likely to degenerate they're gonna like whack you on the back of the head and say you know clue the hell in you know you're you're demeaning yourself you're less than you could be and there's real judgment and then it's harsh you know but with friends it's the same thing you want friends they're not friends if they're not these people you want friends who when something good happens to you there that's good for you right they're happy about that they're not like all bitter and resentful underground and like saying horrible things behind your back and telling you how they did something that was better and trying to drag you down it's like that's not helpful and then when something bad happens to you and you go to them and you say look this terrible thing happened to me first of all they don't try to top it with some like horrible thing that happened to them because they don't have the patience to listen and second they're not secretly gloating about the fact that catastrophe finally beef lü it's like they're actually hurt by it and that chapters an injunction is like take a look at the people that are around you and if they're not on the side of what's good for you then walk away because well first of all that's best for them too if you put up with that all you're doing is enabling it it's like well it's okay that you mistreat me in a way that's harmful to me and everyone else it's like actually no that is not okay it's not in it's not the least bit okay that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help someone when they're down that's a whole different issue what if it's your family so you know you say like walk away right yeah do you still walk away from your family or do you do if it's necessary yeah there's lots of different ways of walking away oh yeah don't forget that well there's that for sure there's that I mean you you sometimes someone's on an encouraging path like there's just nothing you can do you know maybe they're a man down there a man down hard and they're bitter and everything they do is to produce misery virtually everything and you have to detach yourself from that's like I always think about it from the perspective of a lifeguard so if you're training to be a lifeguard one of the things that you're trained to do is to approach someone who's drowning and panicking and the way you approach them is you put your foot out between you and them and you push forward with your hands with your foot out and you basically tell them if they're flailing about you say look I'm here to help but you have to calm down and then if they cling to you like in panic you push them away you think well that's pretty damn cruel because what if they drown it's like yeah what if you both drowned that's like not helpful you're you're there to rescue them they take you down you're both dead it's like fail right so you say look good panicking I'll help you out but I'm not drowning along with you it's like well it's the same with someone in your family it's like if they're on a downward path and you've done your best you know you've made your efforts you've and they're not paying attention they're not changing they say yeah well I'll quit doing this yeah I'll quit doing this they tell you the same story over and over and over it's a downhill path you don't trust it at some point first of all you stop offering your words that's do not cast pearls before swine a very very harsh statement right but what it means is if someone if you're offering words of wisdom to someone in the genuine attempt help and they treat that with contempt then shut up because you're demeaning your words by throwing them away you think well how do you help someone who's aiming down well sometimes you help them by walking away and saying look you're aiming down so hard that I am the spite the fact you're my brother man it's like you know this is killing me you're aiming down so hard I'm not coming along with you and the reason I'm not is to tell you in no uncertain terms that what you're doing is so terrible that I will even violate our kinship to oppose it and maybe it'll take them 10 years to wake up to that you know and something that can be the case because you know people often have to be hit so many times before they'll learn you see that especially if someone's addicted or or otherwise pursuing a pathway that's like seriously downhill so yeah you are you put you cover that pretty well in that chapter where you're saying there's a certain point where you just gotta say it up we're done yeah we're done we're done well it's like why should I think that you're actually trying to change maybe you're just telling me is you're you tell me the story that you use to justify your own idiocy to yourself and then you tell it to me and you demand that because I'm compassionate I accept it and therefore validate your excuse it's like well that like it's really hard not to get tangled up in that right because if someone who's really in rough shape is telling you about why they're suffering first of all they're probably about half right in their story but some of its justification and excuse and blaming and all of that failure to take responsibility it's really hard to stand up and say no I don't buy that no I don't buy that no you're wrong about that you have to be a brutal bastard in order to do that but hey sometimes like surgery is brutal right it's brutal but they're allowed to cut you open and we're gonna rip out part of your body however right right exactly right precisely and so so this chapter about you know only making friends with people who want the best for you that's a brutal chapter you know but it's right unfortunately going to your book a little bit I'm gonna I'm gonna pick up going back to that first thought standing up means voluntarily accepting the burden of being your nervous system responds in an entirely different manner when you face the demands of life voluntarily you respond to a challenge instead of bracing for a catastrophe you see the gold the dragon hordes instead of shrinking and terror from the all-too-real fact of the Dragon you step forward to take your place in the dominance hierarchy and occupy your territory manifesting your willingness to defend expand and transform it to stand up straight with your shoulders back is to accept the terrible responsibilities of life with eyes wide open okay the reason I pulled that one out in particular is the feeling that you have as a soldier or as a military person the feeling that you have going on an offensive operation where let's say you're a bad guy and I'm gonna come and get you all right well first of all you don't know and I'm sneaking up on you and I have all this power right I I feel good about it I'm going to get you the opposite of that is when I'm doing a convoy or I'm going on a patrol where now the bad guys are out there they're waiting to attack me and that is a defensive posture and your attitude about that type of thing is bad now we were trained our guys that we made a specific point with my guys I would say look when you're on patrol we're on offense we are scanning we are looking to get the to get us to be standing up straight and to get the mentality of we want to do this and we're moving towards the target as opposed to we're being chased that's a big deal it absolutely that's a big deal yeah and that's that's what would you say that's an extreme example of what's necessary under normal conditions in life so what one of the things that happens if you're treating someone who has a phobia say like agoraphobic so they become afraid of virtually everything maybe they're afraid of an elevator it's one of many fears and so you think well and they're afraid of an elevator because they've actually gone in elevators and have panic attacks so it's weird because what you do to cure them is to get them to go in elevators and you think well wait a second that's actually what caused the problem so how can getting them to do that again make it better and the answer is because they've gone in elevators their whole life right didn't yet they still become terrified so how can getting them to go on an elevator cure them for a long time people thought well you get them to relax while they were in the elevator and the pairing of the relaxation with being in the elevator taught them to not be afraid that was the first theory but then people learned that no you could just get them to go in the elevator without having them relaxed and it also worked and eventually psychologists sorted this out and what they figured out was that voluntarily encountering something you're afraid of is not the same thing as running from it like it's seriously not the same thing so you say to the person okay you're afraid of the elevator let's can you go look at an elevator they usually say yes and maybe they're so terrified because they're so far gone in their illness that they can't say well how about we look at a bunch of pictures of elevators since like virtually everyone can do that so say let's look at pictures of elevators till you're bored that actually doesn't take very long it's actually quite boring so then the next thing would be well let's go you have to have the person trust you and so the rule is look we're gonna do some things that are gonna push you like competition right but you can stop whenever you want and we're not gonna push you any farther than is good for you and I'll stop anytime you want I often practice with my clients like I taught one client awhile back to not be afraid of needles and he was afraid of needles and I'll tell you what that meant he had dental surgery with no anesthesia right okay so that gives you some level of what it's like to be afraid it's like all do the dental surgery but you're not putting that needle in there it's really it's like I'm no needles so so I taught him how to not be afraid of needles you know and it didn't take very long but the first thing I did said I told him I was gonna bring a needle into the office and that was all I told him the first week is next week I'm bring a needle in here and I'm gonna keep it sheathed and it's gonna be sitting on a shelf and that's where I'm gonna put it and when you come in here you can look at it and if you want me to put it away then I'll put it away it's under your control and then so he was ok with that so he came in I said there's the needle said you want to look at it and said no it's but Kenny it's like oh look out so he looked at it and then he said look like I'm gonna pick up the needle and now what you're gonna do is you're gonna tell me to put it down and I'm gonna put it down so I picked it up he got nervous like right away and he said will you put that down I put it down right away I said we do that 10 times so that the bottom part of your nervous system actually knows that that's what's going to happen said now and then the next thing we'll do is we're gonna practice you saying you've had enough and leaving the office so I pick up the needle and he'd say okay so now you say you've had enough I'm leaving and so he said that and then I'd let him leave if we did that like 10 times so that he knew that he could just say he'd had enough and leave so that mean he didn't have to be a prey animal right so we were getting him out of that moat and it didn't take very long until well then I could bring the needle close to him and I say make sure you watch it you can't pretend it's not there right I'll bring it close to him and touch it and touch him with a sheath needle so we did that a bunch and then finally I unsheathed it and I'd bring it close and he tolerate that or stopped me and then I touch him with that and then the last part of it was that I put it under a piece of paper so he couldn't see it and then I'd bring it close to him right because that was that was the unknown right you don't know what the hell's going on underneath the piece of paper but he got to the point where he could go and have a needle I took home boat it was very brave of him to do this because well what had happened he got what had happened to him is he had a very bad experience with the childhood dentist all the same yeah oh yeah held him did six people held him down to give him a needle so good it had some long-term consequences but see what happened so when you when you do that with people you don't teach them to be less afraid you teach them to be braver that's different and so like I had a client once the doors open on the elevator and she looked and she said that's death like that's a tube and I thought wow that's an amazing response and her she'd go in there her heart rate would accelerate she'd have a heart attack and she died so as far as she was concerned walking in there was death right okay so for me it was an elevator but for her it was death it's like okay well what do you do about your fear of death well we're not getting rid of that it's like you know and you could die in the elevator you actually could probably you won't but people do die in elevators and her idea was that well if anyone has ever died in an elevator in the history of mankind that's a good reason for me not to be in the elevator it's like fair enough you know and then why aren't you terrified of out of your skull all the time because while you're wandering around you might have a heart attack like that we'll probably in fact happen to you at some point so why aren't you terrified of that at every moment well that's the mystery well so you treat people and and you see with that client what I eventually did with hers we went and watched an embalming she was terrified of death like seriously yeah yeah yeah right no kidding but you know so you get you don't get less afraid you get braver that's better because there's plenty of things to be afraid of but you can get braver say something people manage this on their own ever oh yeah yeah yeah people managed it on their own they'd managed it on their own all the time like you know let's say you're in a ratty horrible job and you're being oppressed by your boss and one day you think I've had enough and you go write your resume it's like there you go that's what you're doing it's like you know you're here because you think well I've got the devil I know and and then there's devil I don't know and that's relevant when you're when you're trying to switch careers can I find another job will anyone hire me how long will this take do I have to get educated again I have to put my resume together that's a real pain because there's holes in it and I don't know how to present myself then I have to go to interviews and it's like oh my god that's all you know that's a lot of trouble well then you think no I'm gonna start that I'm gonna rewrite my resume it's like well then you get right is you're moving forward in your life you're not taken being terrorized by your son of a bitch of a boss and you're out to do something about it you know and people can get really good at that so one of the things you do as a psychotherapist is you do assertiveness it's like so people come and they say help help I'm being oppressed in the famous Monty Python in the famous Monty Python manner and you say ok look well first of all you're probably whining a lot so let's figure that out so you quit whining and then let's figure out how you actually are oppressed and what might be done about it and then let's figure out a strategy and then let's help you practice this strategy until you get good at it and and let's also map out the consequences of not fixing it because people think well how can I stand up to my boss it's like that's terrible I might risk my job it's like yeah fair enough no wonder you're afraid of that maybe you should just shut up let's see what your life would be like in ten years if you just shut up it's like you know how about it is now it's like it's gonna be way worse than that because you're gonna shrink and shrink and shrink and your boss is going to become more and more tyrannical and you're gonna hate every minute of your life and it's like you want that Eridu you want to confront your boss or change jobs it's like oh I see it's like hell here that's hell here I get it I get to pick which of those I'm going to walk down and that's a relief to people most of the time it's so funny because people often think they have their paralyzed because they think that there's a good option right yeah but and what are the things you do as a psychotherapist to say oh no you know no you're screwed no matter which way you turn it's it's like a crocodile here and it's a wolf there and and behind you there's a hyena it's like there's no Lambs you're not in lamb territory it's all predators well pick your battle pick your battle and then all of a sudden you're in the battle and then it doesn't matter that it's a hyena because you're warrior so fine bring it on it this is a common to another point that I picked up from the book that I I have a leadership and management consulting company started work for the companies all the time and one of the topics has come up a bunch in the past couple of years is you know when you're when you're dealing with someone you're dealing with an employee and you've got fire um and how this is big hard conversation and etc etc no one wants to have those and I always say look if you have the hard conversation earlier it's not so hard because all I have to tell you is hey Jordan you know you would today and we're not supposed to be late and you all sorry and the problems you can sorts itself out or it or it doesn't and then I got escalate yeah but what you talk about in the book is if there's a problem go attack it you go get that problem solved don't go after that threat you know the Dragons in there go get it well your observation is dead-on it's like and this is the problem with being too nice like I don't what regard nice as a virtue or if it's a virtue it's a very low order virtue because what nice usually means but nice usually means is I don't want to cause conflict now even though the consequences of the conflict might multiply into the future so let's say you have an employee that's chronically late right and but you I don't want to I don't really want to disturb them I don't want to cause any trouble it's like well you're angry about it cuz they're late and they're not supposed to be so you're getting all bitter and resentful plus you're not doing them any favors you know because you're also telling them that you can be taken advantage of and that their lack of discipline is okay and then you know so then you're gonna dislike the employee and you're gonna amplify their other errors and your because of your distaste and then and if they are someone who's taking advantage of you then they're gonna take advantage of you a little more and then a little more and then a little more and a little more and then you're gonna have to have a really difficult conversation or put up with it and that might sink your business especially if you're a small business owner so by not confronting the dragon when it's like two inches high and can only you know it's like it can belch out something like a Bic lighter you wait until the thing can inflame the whole room and then you say oh my god like isn't this hellish it's like well you knew that there was something to say you knew it you knew it a thousand times and now you can't just say the one thing you have to say the thousand things or maybe you have to say that ten thousand things and it's just destructive in every way so yeah that's not good now here's where I need help with this so what I think people might get the idea is okay if I'm in a relationship with my wife yep she gives serves me dry chicken again yeah right which is a common theme in my house but actually thanks to the internet it's actually changed now cuz she's gotten thousands of people that have now sent her how to keep the chicken moist so she does great job but for for um you know we're talking about two decades of my life we're talking about dry chicken out this is a problem it is so well you know what I did I didn't say anything because I just would drink more water yeah more water at dinner yeah I I fear that sometimes people say well you know what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna run around it I'm gonna tell the truth to everyone all the time on these little things that don't matter now my my actual best example that have ever heard of this we we had a guy on the podcast named Charlie plum he was a pilot in Vietnam he was shot down in and on his last mission of his deployment he was shot down he was captured he was in the Hanoi Hilton for six years this is the deal that they had amongst their roommates so they had roommates in a room smaller than we're in right now and their before of them in there three of them in there too from there depending on what's going on if you did something that normally if Jordan does something that annoys me we got to live together if you do something that annoys me it's my fault mm-hmm it's my fault for allowing you click click click your nails together or you pick your nose a lot or you itch your head whatever it is that you do that bothers me it's my problem and I have to absorb it because otherwise what we have is we have like rats in a cage that are gonna gnaw each other apart and and I thought about that while I was reading the part of the book that was saying like and you actually also later in the book talked about hey you know are you gonna get a fight over this little stupid thing are you gonna absorb and I talked about that a lot as a leader yeah as a person in a relationship hey there's problems from your boss you absorb them that you don't pass them down to your people you know you you want us to stay work and order stay late and do a bunch of crazy stuff that we don't think we should be doing cool my guys are gonna go home I'm gonna absorb that I'll get it done myself I'm not gonna I'm gonna solve these problems now are there some tertiary effects of course or secondary effects that now my boss thinks he can get away with that and all those things but I just think there's we have to be careful that we're not just throwing Oh deaf ears of truth in people so yeah well I think those are black truths they're the opposite of white lies right so black truths are truths you use to hurt other people right and so technically in the moment the statement is factual but the context belies it right whereas a white lie it's like well it's a little lie but you're trying to support a larger truth not that white white lies aren't optimal you know it's better not to lie but sometimes the best you can manage is a white lie and then make sure that's a pretty good well okay so then in those sorts of situations you think well first of all I have some rules of thumb if someone does something at work that annoys you it's like write it off man it's like that's once it's like what does that mean you're having a bad you're having a bad day or I'm having a bad day it's like doesn't mean anything do it twice think it's okay let's write that off rake that off it's that's it's the same issue it could still just be circumstances situation three times okay now there might be grounds for a conversation you go and say well you know you put your feet up on my desk like a day ago and that was okay but then you did it again and then like you did it again and I'm thinking it actually happened three times right so there's no denying it and perhaps that's not optimal and then you go for the smallest possible victory that's the next thing is like I'm not telling you that you're what would you say that you lack respect or that there's something wrong with you what I'm asking is that if you come in my office it would be better for both of us if your feet stayed on the floor is that okay you know and and that's a small thing you're not going after the person's character right you're going after the tiny victory so you say to your wife look like I'm thrilled to death that you're cooking me dinner I'm really I'm serious because and it could be a hell of a lot worse than it is you know and and maybe I could be more helpful around the kitchen that's certainly a possibility but I have got this thing with regards to chicken and maybe it's me you know but could we try for like a month to cook it differently and then we'll revisit it and if I happen to be wrong like I'll shut the hell up and she might think okay well he is kind of useless around the kitchen and sort of bitchy about the chicken and all of that but maybe I trust him enough to admit that I made a small mistake and rectify it and we could go long and not have the damn chicken thing hanging over our heads till we're 80 you know you just in your second example there you tell people this all the time so you cut you're coming into my office and you're putting your feet ask what I'll generally do is make it my fault I generally say hey Jordan I hate to be like a nitpicker yeah but I'm really freaked out about germs it's really stupid but I am and when you come and put your feet on my desk it freaks me out yeah you just do me a favor and not put your foot in your name come here it's same thing with you know with the chicken it's like hey you know what I have a super sensitive palate refined and I'm sorry but and I just yeah could we maybe figure out another way to cook that or okay we try you know but I'll take the blame for for the situation rather than your you're disrespectful don't put your feet on my desk this is well you don't want to adopt more of a position of moral superiority than is absolutely necessary one of the things I recommend I don't remember if I wrote it in 12 rules for life I think I did about how to let's say you're in an intractable argument with your wife about who's the most reprehensible person right which is where arguments sort of end when they go to hell I think now you're in one of those arguments and you risk bringing up the past which is a very very bad idea right maybe you're saying something like you've always been this way you're this way down you'll never change and none of it's good it's like oh man that's a fight because what are you gonna go from there so one of the things I recommend and this actually works is when you're in one of these battles and you can't bloody well get out of it you separate each go to your room and you sit and think okay that person is really wrong and I'd like to give them a good stomping and but then you think no I go to live with them so that's probably not a good idea right because I don't want to live with someone who's like stomped and angry about it because they're gonna take their revenge like if they have any spirit at all so you cannot win an argument with your wife that's just wrong you can't you can make peace you can come up with a solution but if you win she loses and then she's the loser and like unless you want have a loser around that's not a very good strategy anyway so you go to your room and you think okay fundamentally flawed as my wife is particularly in this particular circumstance there's probably something stupid I did in the relatively recent past that increase the probability that we're in this little hellish place and you think what was it and you think oh god I really don't want to know it's like I really don't want to know this and so you think no I'm gonna figure out where I'm 1% at fault she's 99% wrong but I'm I'm 1% at fault so you sit there and you think okay what was it then you let your imagination sort of wander over your past stupidities and you think oh there is something I did that was like kind of underhanded and devious and crooked and pathetic and weasly and and then you go and you tell her and she does the same thing yeah you know and she's just as irritated about it as you are and then you think okay and you say look I'm sorry about that and I know this increased the probability that we're in this like bitchy horrible place she does the same thing and then you think oh yeah well we're both pathetic losers and we can quit plan like dominance hierarchy and then maybe you can have a conversation about how to make it better and that conversation should be bounded too it's like the chicken thing is a really good my father-in-law who I really like he used to come my wife told me this story he used to come home for lunch and his wife would feed him lunch and she always used little plates and it was like they'd be married for 30 years and one day had this explosion at the table about the fact that he'd he'd had to eat off these damn little plates for 30 years and you know it was much more of a large explosion than it had to be but it's these little things actually matter they they actually matter you have to straighten them out because your life especially with your wife is composed of about fifty little things that you do every day and because you do them every day they're not little you can just do the arithmetic you know it's like maybe you don't like the way your wife greets you when you come home it's like okay is that relevant is that important well let's say it takes ten minutes because you're thinking about it you're coming home and then there's the little aftermath it's ten minutes so it's like an hour a week it's four hours a month it's 50 hours a year that's one workweek it's 2% of your life it's like 2% of your life right so that's the math it's like if you got 50 of those things right your whole life would be right think is it worth fighting about it's like yeah it's worth it because it's 2% of your life what's one percent even whatever and then you think okay well how should people greet themselves when they first come home it's like well maybe it's not quite like your dog greets you because your dog is like reprehensibly happy to see you that's just too much right little kid will do that but maybe you want the person to not be watching TV for the second you entered the house maybe they should just stop watching TV and come and say you know hello how was your day and give you a hug that would be a good thing and then maybe you do the same thing to them and you practice that for like two months because you're both stupid and it's really hard for you to learn anything and then you've got that down and that the dinner times are like that too like lot and lots of households meal times are really fractured which is a bad thing or they're bitter it's like I'm here's your goddamn food that's like yeah I'll eat it but I can't stand it and you can't cook it's like okay that's four and a half hours a day right for your whole life you think you're gonna like someone like that not a bit man you're not gonna like them so you fix that you actually do did tell that whole thing in the book so that's it's good as in there and actually the phrasing that you used when you say if you win an argument you said something along the lines of you win you win that argument they're the loser yeah now you win that argument a hundred times now in a marriage you win ten thousand times and you are now married to a loser and that loser that loser is not going to be someone who makes any effort whatsoever ever to be attractive to you or anyone else then you'll think oh look look look look who I ended up with it's like no look at how you produced it's like good work there guy and and that's the that's the so so what you're talking about with this argument thing and you look go but you separate you go in your room you say okay what did I do wrong Yeah right I do wrong that's annoying what did I do wrong and and interestingly myself and my buddy Leif babban we wrote called extreme ownership and the whole premises you take responsibility for when things go wrong you say yeah this was my fault so I'll go to clients and I'll be meeting with them and I'll say you look when your something goes wrong with your team here with me you guys made a mistake you fail whatever you're trying to accomplish you know you got to take ownership over you stand up and you say hey look this was my fault and this is what you know we're gonna do and the people will say well you know what if I did that my team is so bad yeah that if I did that with my team you know what they'd say they'd say you're right it is your fault and I mean look at me like well look so your plan Jaakko sucks because if I say this is my fault my team is gonna look at me and say you're right it is your fault and then what do I do and right I kind of get a little bit maybe a little bit frustrated because I look at them and I say that's the whole point it actually is your fault you're not just saying it to get out of the the problem you're not just saying it to make excuses for everything that's happening no when you say hey this is my fault that we got in this argument and then your and your wife says yeah it is you don't say no they say I know and you know you have to mean where it is you say I know and this is what I'm gonna do to fix it and if you're a leader you say it's my fault and your team says yeah you're right it is your fault you say I know that's what I just said and here's one we do to fix it so when you take ownership of a problem it doesn't necessarily make the problem go away in fact it doesn't do that at all once you admit what the problem isn't you take ownership of the problem then you have to say here's what I'm gonna do to fix it here's my linh saying let's say you're a high school kid and you've got a tyrant as a teacher it's like well you could it could be the case that you have a tyrant as a teacher and the tyrant is particularly on your case and you think well yeah that's an awful thing and this person really is a tire and it's like yeah but you're not very good at dealing with tyrants and you might think well I shouldn't have to be it's like fair enough man because who wants tyrants but the truth of the matter is is that there is always tyranny and if you don't know how to deal with it if you don't know how to thrive in the face of tyranny even then there is something wrong with you now doesn't mean that there isn't something wrong with the tyrant it's like that self-evident but it does mean that you are who you could be because if you were everything you could be you could manage that situation and it might be you'd figure out an exit strategy I mean who the hell knows what the solution would be but if you if you are conceiving yourself as helpless victim then that's what you are and I'm not saying that there aren't situations that people find themselves in where there's very well it's hard to say you know that there's very little you can do I mean that Gert woman that we talked about earlier she was in a pretty damn hopeless situation and she found something she could do you know and I've read these books Victor Frankel's man's search for meaning and Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago I mean he saw people in some pretty damn dire straits and like really really beyond comprehension and he noticed even in those situations that people still have their choices to make you know and I mean you tread on that ground with extreme hesitancy because you don't say well man if I was thrown in the gulag I would have been Noble it's like no probably not man you would have been a trustee in about 15 minutes you know that's the most likely outcome so you have to be careful about not getting too high on your horse about such things but it isn't obvious when you're out of choices most of the time you have more choices you haven't used all the choices you have most of the time now I've seen people in situations I couldn't help them get out of so and people died right I mean you have a fatal illness you have pancreatic cancer like your dad in six months your choices are limited but maybe under those circumstances you figure out how to put your house in order and be what you can to the people who will be left it's something like that from for me and I get a lot of that I know you get infinitely more than me but I'll get someone that reports to me a problem or a situation that they're in that seems really bad and and what I've found is the the solution that they're looking for the only solution that they can conceive of is one that is going to provide that solution within a two week time frame like that's what we're talking about if I'm not saw if this problem isn't solved in two weeks then you know this is health and I always kind of report back and say hey you're here in a job right now that I understand it's bad I understand it's your boss is terrible the team is terrible but whatever the case is with it or you're in a situation or your family is this or whatever so conceive a plan right now and it's not gonna take two weeks it might take six months it might take a year it might take a year and a half of you saving your money oh yeah and setting your resume and getting this other skills that you need if you can if you can extend your time and I'll tell you what when you when you come up with that plan when you conceive of that plan immediately you have hope and when you have hope you can continue on through the miserable existence that you're in because you know that you're gonna you've got a plan and you're gonna get your way out of it absolutely well I had a client recently because I've done a lot of consulting as well it's clinical work and often my clients come to me they're high functioning people they have decent jobs but you know we make a plan it's like well I'm making $75,000 a year right now if the person says I said well how much well okay we're gonna we're gonna prove that like why don't we see if we can triple out see if we can triple it it's like what the hell you know maybe we can't but maybe we can some people do make triple that could be you okay so what's wrong with you well you know you're not educated enough all right so we need to fix that your resume isn't in order you're not sending the damn thing out it's like well then you got to do baseline statistics it's like well how many times do you have to send out your resume to move ahead when you're already in a pretty decent job well the answer isn't ten the answer is like you have to send out five a day every day for the next two years and the the rejection rate will be so close to a hundred percent that that's what it will feel like right but it's a lottery ticket you only have to win once so it doesn't matter if you if you lose 300 times doesn't matter you just need one hit so now you got to prepare yourself because it's gonna be brutal because you're sending out all these you know resumes to jobs you're not quite qualified enough for cuz you're looking to move up brace yourself right it's gonna be nothing but failure nothing but failure well in this particular client I think it took her two years maybe more two and a half years of sending out resumes and accelerating her education and and practicing because she'd get an interview now and then and get very close to it to get that first move right but then she got two more in the next year and she was out triple or celery but you know it's like long-term strategic thinking followed by an implementable plan and then the willingness to tolerate an insane run of ridiculous failures before you move but I've seen that happen to people there's no reason that you can't move you just have to figure out where you want to move you have to figure out what the criteria are for putting you in that position and then you have to be some measure of insanely persistent because it's so unlikely right that the default answer to the question can I have this good job is are you out of your mind of course not it is it's like and even if you're qualified it's like yeah you and ten other people so there's even an element of chance at it especially at the end you know like if you're in the top five you've done everything you can can do to control that outcome there's some element of chance that's going to be the determining variable because you know maybe I don't know maybe they didn't like the way your suit looked on you and that's the only thing that's differentiating you from the other candidate it's like you also don't want to take that too personally it's like well you hit the top five you were shortlisted you're in there man you're in there you're in the game do that ten times you'll win one of those contests but you got to do it ten times so and you know even in lower end jobs like I've walked I've worked in lots of lower end job we talked about dishwasher she asked I'm you dishwasher exactly were you and ice Sheriff a strong case yeah yeah yeah well you know I was dishwasher for a while but then that was a short-order cook and you know but more than that more importantly than that even while I was a dishwasher washer once I kind of got the hang of it which was a lot harder than you might think once I got the hang of it I was valued member of that team it's like well your dishwasher it's like yeah that's one way of looking at it another way of looking at is that I'm valued member of this team and that was actually fun like I was just a kid you know as 14 and I was I did my job properly and I got treated like an adult it was like I loved that I loved that that was great and so the fact that I was well are you a dishwasher are you a 14 year old adult hey I'm a 14 year old adult hey I win I win that dishwasher no dishwasher it's like that's a good game and I really did like that I mean when I look back in my mid adolescence it's certainly the case that the the times that were the best for me was when I was working in restaurants because I was I was part of the team man so you one of the sections in the book you talk about I believe the person's name was lunch box lunch bucket right you know since we're talking about work environments and there's that certain level of camaraderie you actually talk about the SEAL Teams in here yeah where you just have this it's like a non I've talked about this before in the SEAL Teams it's nonstop a hyper verbal abuse aggression around the clock 24 hours day you're in a seal platoon like that's that's life if any any mistake that you make any any display of weakness is gonna be professional weariness apart you ripped apart and then if you get all irritated about that it's the nicknames you talked about lunch bucket your nickname was Maui Howdy Doody and then again - howdy which was which doesn't felt pretty good about was better yeah zoom from Howdy Doody which is kind of is so good howdy which is kind of cool right isn't Western yeah yeah but but the nicknames that would that that are in the SEAL Teams like I can't with good conscience repeat them I'm sure because they're just they're just horrible yeah horrible names but there's a camaraderie around that and there's also though as I was reading what you had written about these guys working on a rail ray where a crew yeah there's a test it's a test it's a test to see where you're at it's right you made us can we rely on you can you can you tolerate a little bit of irritation the answer that is no it's like well maybe we don't want you around then because some irritating things are likely to come down the pipe yeah and it's it's not just it to me to me it proves if you've got someone that can take it right it's not just that they can take some random joking insults like they can they can take it they can take it yeah that's what you're testing for it's like can you take it lunch bucket couldn't write because people would laugh at his lunch bucket and he'd get all upset it's like well you have a stupid lunch pocket it's like you know your mum packed it how about it you laugh at yourself yeah my mom packed this I know it's kind of stupid that would have been the end of it he would just have to say that yeah it's like but I didn't want to hurt her feelings it's like oh okay you know fine you got your stupid lunch bucket but no he couldn't handle that you know so yeah it was it was horrible and comical to watch at the same time because the level of and people have written me about that they said oh you know poor lunch bucket it's like because they're all compassionate I think no no not poor lunch bucket it's like clue the hell in buddy you have your chance you know that was a desirable job that rail crew job in the summer because it was high-paying you know and they weren't easy to come by those jobs and so the fact that he got hired onto that crew is a real opportunity for him you could make a pile of money in the summer out working on the rail crew and all you had to do was take some ribbing with good grace not suck up to the management too badly and not have other people do your job that was all that was all you had to do but he couldn't do that and so he got run off and it was like grow the hell up buddy you know these guys or when a hundred people are teasing you then probably they're not wrong yeah when you are getting keys like that as well well when you when you when you stop reacting it's no longer fun yeah yeah yeah it also gives you an opportunity to tease back it's like you can show your wit and one of the things that working-class guys in particular which is what one of the things I really loved about working class jobs is they're they're always looking for some humor so it's like if if person a is teasing person B that's kind of comical but if person B comes back with a good comeback it's like that's even better you know so I think that's a lot of how those jobs are rendered tolerable right it's they're they're hard dirty jobs dishwashers a good example that's not dangerous although cooking is you know you gotta watch your step I got burned a lot when I was cooking but what makes those jobs not only tolerable but even desirable is that you can develop a tremendous amount of camaraderie around them I've never really experienced that at a professional level job that just doesn't happen the same way and it's really if there's a real loss in that so it's it's it's fun to be part of a team that's doing you know grubby hands on things and and having a ridiculously entertaining vicious cruel and evil time while you're doing it that's very entertaining the this new kids book I wrote so the kid mark he's getting made fun of by this he's a different kind of bully he's like a mental belief that that verbally abuses people and he gets called plate face by this character and to it eventually gets in trouble for throwing something at the kid because he's calling him plate face plate but eventually way he befriends the kid is by he they have to do a self-portrait class knee draws a picture of himself looking like a plate and he shows up again the kid laughs and all sudden they're buddies and it's like that's what you do you take away that you take away the joy of of being so heated and irritated by people that are making fun of you and you just kill it right you Jitsu in some sense well I had an experience with that about three years ago I'd put my videos up online and people kept saying that I sounded like Kermit well one person said it and I thought well whatever but then like five people said it and I thought oh my god like this Kermit thing so then I went and listened to Kermit I thought it's like really I really sound like Kermit you know and so then well then I started to play with it a little bit you know I used the puppet mm-hmm when I when I went to speak to university students and I made frog jokes and then I made a vid I'm in a couple of videos that sort of featured me as a frog and a means crazy right it's ridiculous but but that's and but but the teasing never got mean because of that you know and the same things happened online to a large degree as people keep making memes of me like and there's I don't know there's lots of them there's way too many to even keep track of and I was watching that happen and I thought this is a good thing because there's humor and wherever there's humor that's a good thing and they're making fun of me but it's gentle you know most of it was pokey you know like well you sound like this damn puppet what do you think of that it's like well if I had to pick someone to sound like probably wouldn't be a puppet but if it had to be a puppet Kermit's not a bad one it could be a lot worse like it could be miss Peggy I could have been that you know so thank God that didn't happen but the memes have never got vicious because you know I'll post them if they're funny and satirical and then they won't get vicious because they don't have to it's like can we poke fun at you it's like yeah please do and what the more the better really because that'll also help keep my feet on the ground and keep me awake and plus it's funny and like one of the things about life is that a sense of humor that's a good thing to to arm yourself with because sometimes you just don't have anything other than that like my daughter when she recounts her the horrors of her adolescence she she had to have her hip and her ankle replaced because they both deteriorated beyond repair beyond the possibility of repair and she was like an agony for literally four years it was just awful she can tell that story in a way that will just make you die of laughter that's like well thank God for that because what else do you have in a situation like that man if you give and sometimes it's so dark that your sense of humor is just about gone and then you're in real trouble but lots of times that's what you've got against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune it's like you see this with people especially people who've been through really hard times and they were witty like things will be bleak bleak bleak and they'll crack a joke and you think well thank God man you could pop up above that and see above it a bit and and like you know tap it with a bit of irony and thank God for that so when the comedian's start to get silence there's real trouble and that's been happening to some degree in Canada you know comedians are increasingly not willing to go speak on University campuses a and that's when the comedian's can't talk that's a really bad sign because that's the that comedies that's the triumph of the human spirit over adversity right that's why guys in these horrible jobs are often so unbelievably funny it's like well what else do they have you know and actually that's a lot to be funny like that did that can that can move you through a lot of dismal so you know I I'm paying attention to time because I know in case someone can't tell us that we're buying an airport right now but to kind of bring this a little bit too close first of all we didn't cover anything that I wanted to cover today so we should all know that so you're coming back with my talks like oh that's not the talk I plan well yeah your first biblical talk you get the first line of Genesis right and made it one line deep in Jonah powers well done well yeah but one of the things in and I think it's a good note to end on at least a little bit to touch on because you're kind of talking about it right now is you know the last rule is to to pet a cat when you encounter one on the street it's basically find a little bit of joy in these common things that well it's it's a chapter about about my daughter's experience and like it was brutal man it was brutal she was literally walking around on two broken legs for two years and she had to take incredibly high doses of opiates and so had all the problems that went along with out she had to take ritalin to stay awake it's like and she was in all likelihood she was dying there's a bunch of reasons for that and and those were just some of her health problems so those weren't even the worst ones strangely enough so it was bloody brutal man and one of the things we told her and we managed this thank God as I told her once the disease started to develop she had rheumatoid arthritis very very seriously I said to her when she was a little kid he said look kid this is gonna be rough man this is gonna be rough and and here's what you could do to make it worse it's like use your illness as an excuse you do that at your peril you do that a hundred times you will not be able to tell the difference between suffering that stops you from moving forward and an excuse for not living and you'll be done it said never never never use your illness as an excuse like if you can't do it you can't do it you know we have a good experience with that it's written in the book when we bought her a scooter because she couldn't use public transportation and we were all freaked out about that because like well she has damaged bones and you know a broken hip and all of this like you're gonna buy that kid a scooter really so well what are you gonna do keep her in her bedroom he won't think that's a good idea tell her she can't go up in the world it's like have the damn scooter so after a while she had to get a license for it there's a licensing procedure and to do that she actually had to write a motor bike and so she trained to ride the motorbike like not very long after she had her hip replaced I think it was a six week something like that it's of course we're all freaked out about that too because it's like oh man she has to ride a motorbike and she has this hip and it's like what are we gonna do and she went she did the motorcycle that first one but she dropped the bike a couple of times and some kid wiped out and rolled like 30 feet not kind of freaked her out unsurprisingly and and this so then the second day she went with her mom to do the motorcycle training she also got trained to ride a motorcycle and the second day she woke up and she said I don't think I can do this and we thought well you know that's understandable it's like I can understand that and we talked through it we said look here's what to do man is like yeah you can't do it we understand why you're afraid of it you can't hold the bike up that well but why don't you just go like go in the car with your mom and see how you feel when you get there because you'll get close you get right up to it maybe you can say no and you have to sit in the car and like that's life and and we get it but maybe you don't have to and she went there so she thought that was okay and she went there and she picked up the damn motorbike and got her license and everybody cheered at the end and then she could drive her goddamn scooter around and thank God for that because you know she used to go out there and she put on her helmet and she'd go on her scooter and she was like ready to go over the world and so that's like that's the difference between making your kids safe and making them strong and it was touch and bloody go you know cuz it could have easily been that she would have been in a little accident with her motorcycle and broken her leg and then we would have thought Oh what kind of horrible parents are we she's already got problems and we put her on a damn scooter in the middle of the city it's like well you gotta be competent are you gonna be safe it's like there's nothing safer than competence and so and it was great for her because it was just one more act of courage you know and and it and she loved that damn school she had it for like six years and it was a really good idea risky as hell but really a good idea so yeah well yeah again I'm looking at the clock we got to get you out of here first of all twelve rules for life an antidote to chaos that's out right now it's number one on Amazon in America UK Canada everywhere that's pretty awesome I'm I'm I'm yeah struck wordless by it yeah yeah everyone should just get it and because we didn't talk about anything I wanted to talk about today you you come back we'll do this book and everyone likes to read the books if I can if I can before I do the podcast so this again everyone a chance to read it which will be awesome any other things well I should say I've got this online program called self authoring and I'm offering your viewers a and listeners a 20% discount that helps you write out an autobiography so you can figure out like what you haven't sorted out about your life it helps you write an analysis of your virtues and faults so you can rectify the faults and capitalize on the virtues and helps you make a plan for the future and I would say to your listeners don't be afraid to do it badly because a bad plan a bad account for yourself and a bad plan is way better than no account for yourself and no plan it's way better so do it do it badly it'll it'll help orient you in your life and we have a preponderance of of scientific data showing for example that people who've done the future authoring portion of this that's the plan are like 30 percent more likely to stay in university it has an overwhelming effect and it works best on people who are doing worst which is really quite cool so there's that I have a personality test at understand myself calm and you can go there and get a analysis of ten aspects of your personality it's kind of a harsh test like it'll tell you actually what you're like and it'll probably make you angry you know because maybe not but it probably will but it'll tell you it'll help you figure out what jobs you might be suited for but it'll also tell you where you're weak and could be stronger and so that's bitter medicine but but it's better to know it's better to know because then you can do something about it so I would say those are two useful things and and I'd encourage people to they're inexpensive give them a try they'll they're helpful and on top of that you've got your podcast yep you've got your YouTube channel which has hundreds of hours worth of lectures yeah and is fantastic Jordan Peterson calm as well and well I just wanted to thank you for coming on the podcast again but more important I want to thank you for continuing to do what you do I know it's hard work and I know it's taxing on you and on your family life and all that yeah it beats suffering stupidly it does and I know for a fact that you're having an incredibly positive impact all over the world getting people everywhere to try to it and grow the hell I grow the hell up grow up to see that the truth yeah make themselves and make thereby the world a better place wouldn't that be good it could be a better place that would be good if we could manage that yeah indeed all right thanks for coming on Ben well we have excused dr. Jordan Peterson from the this is a recording studio no we're in a rented office a makeshift makeshift Jordan had to go catch a plane and continue to get out there and make the world a better place good for him yes good for us and Eko speaking of making the world a better place sure maybe you can let us know how we might be able to make our world a little bit better sure of course yeah first thing we can do is stay on the path and part of stayin on the path is maintaining our physical capability and competent copy competency competency is it competence or isn't in C competency we're gonna maintain that that's all we're going to do on the path so we had chocolate supplements obviously we already know if you don't know krill oil joint warfare so Jaco super krill oil that's a krill oil supplement so joint where warfare is the glucosamine chondroitin and curcumin yes very good things for your joints um we you know at some point we'll go through everything that's in there yeah not today yeah I will do something so that because I won't sit here and talk about but it's good yeah it's good use it yeah use it the and it's not the kind where it's good because it's generally healthy to take these things which it is but that's not the main push in my opinion check the main thing is that if your joints are kind of kind of off just like sore dude you just do a lot do anything breath you if you do brick laying what does that Mason Mason if you're yeah like just from you know back elbows and then you start taking this you'll see that you'll feel that a difference specifically yeah and it's generally healthy anyway maintain the joints maintain the competency of your joints with jockle super krill join warfare take them every day that's what I do in the routine also discipline pre-workout it's a pre-workout for me it's it's a pre mission for me it's a pre mission free trade up production cognitive yeah enhancer yeah and I'll tell you the only downfall of it right now well there's a couple number one a taste delicious so you want to drink a lot of it number the other day on the other day I drank a lot of it I'm gonna have to go and give a speech yeah I had to use the restroom right before I went on stage which I don't like yes be careful well that's a general thing I know it doesn't have to be chuckle disciplined you can do that with water careful yeah yeah you want to be careful didn't you eat some of it like oh can we ate today's see I'm trying to avoid that yeah yeah yeah see just took a mouth a little scoop yeah and it's not too bad in fact you know what you know you get like a shot of some really nasty alcohol if you ever do it sure but it gives you like a little hook yeah sure for that yeah when you take just when you eat the straight powder sure which I'm now doing apparently it gives you a little bit it gives you a little not only you get the the effects of what's in it but you need a little bit of the mainline yeah deal yeah that's kind of like yeah when you're kid you buy the little kool-aid you know when you before you make the kool-aid you get like a little you try that stuff straight yeah I know what it's like only it's not quite as horrible as that I'm better than that it's better than cool you know good chocolate it tastes good he's into the taste good stuff anyway it's called did JA this it's called discipline called rate up yeah you see it anyway get at origin main dot-com and also at origin mean calm you get you that's where you can get your geek so you don't have to along you can still ask me what gear you get no don't ask anymore not ask good I'll tell you no tell you this is what I'll tell you go to origin pick Iggy from there whichever one you want plenty color they're not planting colors but the legit you have white I have one blue G that I never used all I have is white I'm a black key someone gave me a black Ian isn't cool but I've never used it but cuz a lot of people ask me that - what color should I get yeah what color should you get I am very traditional and I use the white key but I do have a def key that's black yeah but some schools they don't even allow other colors than white and blue yeah that's true but Pete says black is the is the number one seller okay like if just all colors black now can you compete IBJJF with a black guy I don't know I never forget but here's what we were talking about when you're a little kid and you think about martial arts what do you want to be the ninja you want to be a ninja yeah now you got a 36 year old guy twenty-eight-year-old guy and he finally he's feeling kind of ninja if she's doing the jujitsu yeah and he's you take that one extra step black key boom ninja yeah in a matter of speaking yeah and I actually felt that that's part of the reason why I don't get a black key because I I kind of wanted like not like there's a little Ron's movie feathers what do you mean can old Charles Bronson movie called the mechanic yeah yeah there's a there's a there's a scene where the traditional karate guy is gonna fight a guy that's got some new tricks up his sleeve sure and the traditional karate guy has to get nuts on him yeah but he's in it just a plain white key yeah yeah and Charles Bronson - yeah so I'm just you know yeah and in the line but strangely I mainly stick to white because it's kind of that's the the main like I'm not doing too much with with the cool black one because let's face it the black one like I said about being a ninja and it looks too bright it does it's really cool and but I didn't want to roll in and be like in they think you're cool with your black key kind of thing you know the thing is I think it's progressed beyond that it's totally it's beyond that yeah you're not you are not standing out at all and I'm lucky now you might be if you go to a traditional you know school that has only white keys yeah you're gonna stand out you coming to victory MMA and fitness you could we weren't a purple you no one's gonna care yeah I was even looking sec camouflage yeah no one cares it might be like dang that's a cool camouflage they might they might say that I just put chokehold on your Daenerys yeah so there it is I would say okay if they're saying hey Chacko echo what G should I get what color should I get we know origin what color should I get a ask your school first yeah cuz some they don't allow you're gonna buy your cool black key or there's like an army green is there army green yeah you're gonna buy and they looked open you're solid you're ready to go and you come in they say you can't train with that you can't have that so ask your school first if they allow all colors then owns up to you yeah yeah but but the point is with asking what color is that I think that they're like hey is there like a violation if I get this cool black one and you answered it yet now no no unless your school does its literally no factor literally no fact - yeah so they got any right origin mean calmness we get them all so on it dot-com / Jocko this is where I get the kettle bells the dope kettle bells you didn't talk about rash rash guards Oh and origin yeah yeah and because the reason that I just popped into my mind cuz they have spats now because they have spats now the first run of spats are green and like some other color yeah yellow lying yeah right interesting yeah don't worry I said Peter Jackson now I'm not a Gus bats wearing dude no I'm not wearing tights not happening soon no they're nothing against people that do yeah there's some crazy jujitsu guys out there that are wearing tights like you read about but as it as it ap not wearing tights yeah I know a lot of people that do mm-hmm make some black ones or something else yeah these it got it you know you can get obviously the rash guards are good to go yeah but now you can also get spats that are not so we're sneaking with dispatch we're citrus bats when we figured out the route of that's right or dope yeah yeah it's a good thing and it's not as I thought it would route back to you know some ballerina yeah some ballerina think no it's war yeah it's what you're more in your legs when you're up cavalrymen you know yeah so we can say spats it's been approved yeah it's the same thing yeah it's you you tape you in here so we're good ankle yeah fully interesting color choice yeah the first one here's the thing though yeah about the spats yeah some colors you don't see like like if I was like hey I'm gonna wear this lime green and yellow thing whatever shirt spats whatever and you'd be like lime green yellow that just doesn't even sound good I'm looking at these two colors I don't think that's gonna look good but then you put it on a shirt or spats or something then you put it on you're like oh dang that kind of works for some reason I'm not saying lime green and yellow does that I'm just saying a certain color cut yeah come interesting thing Pete's my bro right sure literally with the first time I had a Skype conversation with Pete my wife as I could sound like you were talking to yourself yeah we can we as a for our conversation by the way now with that that being said mm-hmm I wouldn't have made spats that look like the first Bassett II had come out with in a million years now here's now here's the funny thing I can't even say I can't even say hey Pete don't you know no one's gonna like those you know why because my sense of fashion yeah is so awful yes of fashion is not exploit its literally nothing it would be non-existent if you even had one yeah okay that's right well no it's non-existent yeah if you had fun it would be get it it's like double nothing okay yeah well so that's why I can't even say hey Pete I can't say I can't make a blanket statement like Pete people won't like those yeah I can't even say that because I have you - no idea sure so I just said what I do know is people would definitely like some black ones right yeah that's pretty safe to say so yeah yeah that's that I don't mind the green oh by the way but you even we've had this stuff we've had issues like this yes where you make things that I just don't yeah unapproved nah I'm yeah there aren't approved yeah on a proof across the board yeah but I just know you just kind of just don't know yeah I say okay you know I don't know that's I gotta stay humble over here yeah I can't claim this claim to have any any footing to stand on at all when it comes to fashion but as any kind yeah and haircuts I'm pretty good with those you know what yeah sure your head okay next question so yeah again or dominga calm there's a lot of cool stuff on those hoodies and stuff too by the way yeah which and this is a this is a buy not biased what'd he call it subjective when I was wearing the full origin sweat suit mm-hmm I don't I laid down on the couch just took a break whatever no I don't normally do that to look right from what cruising you know you know doing whatever it is I was doing took a break lay down on the couch full sweat suit on origin it was the most comfortable moment I had in recent memory and just so everyone knows if you're talking about echoes comfort levels there already I know that you know comfort and know about it and very familiar with it and yeah it was not saying a lot so yeah there it is okay back on it the kettle bells that I get whole set almost all set primal bells zombie bills legend bells they're the kettle bells that's where you get them on it calm slash choco also they got some cool maces on there Java is the mace right I do yeah but yeah get me pounder you think 20 pounds is not heavy yeah it's heavy yeah really have that's one of those things and we kind of talked about it before where you wait like wait like this many pounds or you know kilos whatever perhaps it's not create all created equal like if it's in a certain form yeah or formless or whatever that's way different like my daughter I forget how much deviant ways now like 53 pounds or something like that to be puns is nothing as far as lifting their every lift it yeah trail lift her when she don't want to be lifted but she's like she's a good piece to like 150 pounds nonetheless the point there is with these mesas and there's all this cool stuff on there if you want to vary up your workout make it interesting unlike tacos workout make it make yours interesting if you want to do that you don't have to there's some really good stuff on there check them out and you know if you want something get something also when you get Jordan Peterson's twelve rules just call 12 little girls doll votes for life an antidote to chaos Jordan B Peterson its twelve rules for life is like it seems like a big claim you know yeah but they're pretty they're pretty solid pretty solid yeah follow the song nonetheless that that is a good one um when you get down and any other any of the other books don't worry I organized them all for you go to jakka podcaster somebody said the other day on the Internet he said to me oh you should have a book club we got a book club go to Jocko podcast.com and click on books all the books are there that's the club mate there ya don't have to ask me about the book club the books are there all right yeah ADF we gotta organize for you by episode by the way mm little brief description click on there boom get your book from there it's a good way to support takes the Amazon you can get your bookie for you are do another shopping hain't carry-on just do your thing no one's gonna stop you from that of course and that supports the podcast good way to support small action big reaction also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already that one seems obvious I know but it's a good way to support just a little good way to support just in right out of you a funny review yeah I'm going like once a week now I go and read all the new reviews yeah ever gems yeah there's some gems in there yeah if you feel like it yeah so so subscribe write a review if you want subscribe to youtube we have a youtube channel if you didn't know that already that's where the video version of this podcast resides you like that is that good job also excerpts on there if you do I listen or watch should I say the whole episode or episodes got some excerpts on there you can just watch little um you know little excerpts little tidbits of the podcast little ideas little lessons tips of advice mm shorter form you know when you take a break at work or whatever Chuck not that you should be watching youtube at work but if you are you watch this boom get back to work more effective probably probably also some other stuff on there we're gonna try to slowly add more and more what you to say content not just for the sake of adding content by the way because I make videos from time to time very spaced out you know they're you know trying to get them done nonetheless um we're gonna put more there's gonna be more and more on there it's a new year right what's February now Archie bro anyway moving on also Chuck where's the store it's called chuckle store chocolate store calm that this is the website online store where you can get discipline equals freedom shirts rash guards the victory Emma Mayen fitness shirt The Jackal always wears like Einstein buy though I think Einstein wore the same thing every day too is that what you do it no I do it cuz it's simple not because Einstein does it actually they say that this is the you and Einstein wear the same thing every day for the same reason yeah because what they say less decision-making yeah cuz your decision-making you know resources yeah I don't really believe all that I just believe I don't feel like sitting around thinking about what I'm gonna wear in the morning just grab that I have a shirt drawer guess why I said it shirts yeah now put it on right you have bigger things to make decisions about it think about that's exactly what I'm saying that's what I read too so you guys you and Einstein are like now I don't want to say obsessed you're like you just real into more important things so what you wear that's that that's that shouldn't take up too many of your decision-making resources the thing about chocolate or yeah I don't know if you've ever made this clear well maybe you have but if you want to support the podcast that's a good way to support the podcast for a while people want us to do a thing where you donate money yeah and I said well no people want to support the we're not gonna ask for money and give them nothing yeah we'll give them something a t-shirt a hat a sticker yeah good stuff by the way it's not the shirt that makes the man it's the man that makes this shirt so okay there you go nonetheless there are cause you're the one that makes these years that's it's a different thing I think I saw it on the movie uh don't with Sean Connery and Catherine's netted Catherine zeta-jones in you know remember dad to steal something continue okay you know what movie I'm talking about anyway there's some hoodies on there some hats on there we're restocking actually I'm doing a thing because the people email cuz you know there's stuff out of stock in there yeah guess what not never again I'm hesitant to say never say never but yeah never again okay so everything is in stock right now not necessarily come back when you're ready I'm working on is all very close to being complete okay so they'll be available and some new stuffs gonna be on there also rash guards on there for jiu-jitsu or for anything physical you know you're doing physically you want to keep your range of motion you know whatever anyway you know what rash guards are I think they're pretty dope um also women's stuff on there and I am NOT saying I say this a lot let me say it again not saying buy something I'm saying go on there just look if you don't want anything didn't don't get something but if you do want something get something it's a good way to sport also that's really a deep you don't thank you you know if you want something get something if you don't want something don't yeah alright cool we'll abide by that is it kind of like you don't like when people say it is what it is yes chuckles not gonna be anyone but Jocko you know jock was jockle true right same thing no why do you say that you know kind of I say that for the same reason also psychological warfare if you know what that is it's an album with tracks jaco tracks not Jocko playing a ukulele or the violin or what else deeply not really the violin I can't really play the drums too well either yeah but you play stuff nonetheless it's none of that it's Jocko to giving you cuz I'll each track is Jacque a jock chuckles I'll should I say tips that really tips they're kind of tips on how to eliminate the weakness that you're feeling at any given moment on your path on your campaign on the campaign against weakness that's what it is so if you're about to skip your workout because hey you don't feel like it B you don't think you have time or something like this or usually it's because you don't feel like it cuz you worked out yesterday you're kinda sore like you were gonna do squats today but you did a bunch of burpees yesterday so your lower back and your quads they're kind of sore so you're like maybe I'll just do tomorrow No so all you got to do it's like put in psychological warfare listen to there's a track for that inhale he'll just explain just in his own little Jocko way explain why you shouldn't do that why you should just do the workout and after you listen to you be like dang that makes sense and guess what boom all of a sudden you're doing the workout you didn't skip it so what you do if you like that you can also get discipline equals freedom Field Manual on iTunes Amazon music google play other mp3 platforms it's not on audible it's not on honorable it's available as an album actually two albums also you hit jock a white tee which as everybody now knows will increase your deadlift to a minimum of eight thousand pounds been proven over and over again everyone knows it now it's really not impressive anymore since so many people are hitting at eight thousand pound max books Jordan B Peterson maps of meaning is his first book it's old it's big its expensive I have it it's it's a great read also twelve rules for life an antidote of chaos way the warrior kid so way the warrior kid kids book teaching kids to how get how to get on the path now there's a new book coming out a new warrior kid book it is available now on Amazon it's called way the warrior kid marks mission it's a follow up the first book was fifth grade the second book sixth grade marks getting a little older guess what he still got some problems and he's gonna solve them so you can order that also as I already mentioned discipline equals freedom Field Manual that is available if you want to get bigger stronger faster smarter more disciplined better get that book and then implement it because you can get the book and sit and sit around and play video games it's not gonna make you any of those things you have to actually get it you have to read it you have to implement it so that works also with the warrior kids don't forget you can get some more your kids soap basically I got some did you get so yeah yeah it's good to go Irish Oaks ranch dot-com young Aiden who's a warrior kid making his own soap business owner age 12 check that out extreme ownership book by myself and my brother lave babban it's about combat leadership it's about how to lead that's what it's about and people think that's a simple thing it's not even or Jordan B Jordan B Peterson say today leadership is very complicated he's right so extreme ownership will help you in your leadership skills tactics and strategies also if you need leadership guidance and direction at your company at your business or at your team beyond what would give you here on this podcast and beyond the books I have a leadership and management consulting company it's called a salon front where we will get the leadership you have and thereby your whole organization aligned and moving forward together it's me it's Lafe babban it's JP to now it's Dave Burke you can email info at Ashkelon front calm there you go to the website Ashlin front calm also there is the muster this is a leadership seminar that hits you like an atom bomb so the muster everyone that's been to it there's nothing else like it the people that work at the hotels are done that have said there's nothing else like it so it's awesome if you want to come to it we're only doing two musters this year we don't have time to do more we're doing one in Washington DC May 17th and 18th that's for the East Coast people May 17th and 18th Washington DC and then we're gonna do San Francisco October 17th and 18th that's for your West Coast people those the only two musters that we're doing this year we're not doing Vancouver we're not doing Atlanta we're not doing Memphis we're not doing Tampa those are all great cities but we're not gonna do a muster there we've had four monsters already San Diego New York City San Diego again in Austin Texas all the monsters that we've done have sold out these two that we're doing this year going to sell out as well so if you want to come registered at extreme ownership calm we will see you there and until then if you want to get on the path with us you can't find us we'll be cruising on the interwebs on Twitter on Instagram and on - faced Ibuki bull ha the Jordan Peterson is at Jordan B Peterson he's also got the YouTube channel Jordan Peterson he's got Jordan Peterson calm echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko willing and finally thanks to all of you I know a lot of men and women in uniform listen to this podcast I hear from you all the time well we would not have this podcast if it wasn't for you overseas holding the line and keeping evil at bay and to the people in uniform here at home police law enforcement firefighters paramedics and the rest of you first responders thank you for keeping us safe inside our borders and to everyone else out there moving through life and that's good that's fine but I recommend you don't just move through life I recommend you move down the path get stronger and faster and smarter and better every day aim to be the best and as jordan peterson write so eloquently in his book always place you're becoming above your current being in other words get up and get after it until next time this is echo and Jocko out

Channel: Jocko Podcast

Views: 1,301,482

Keywords: jocko podcast, jordan peterson, 12 rules for life, discipline, freedom, clean your room, navy seal, military, leadership, seal teams, dish washer, howdy, lunch bucket

Id: WHZjcfgk4CI

Length: 130min 38sec (7838 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 07 2018