Joan Rivers in Conversation With Henry Bushkin About the Dark Side of Johnny Carson

okay I'm Joan Rivers I gather cold so bear with me and stubby today for Leonard low-paid and we're gonna have a great show cuz I have asked for each and every thing that we're gonna do on the show starting with I read a book about Johnny Carson by Henry Bushkin millions of Americans who welcome Johnny into their home's each night during the 30 year reign of The Tonight Show never guess what a complicated man was underneath that Midwestern charm with I mean he kept a light circle about of he employed I'm sorry he kept a tight another life he kept a tight circle around him no one really got in no one really knew what he was about except one man who was my next guest he was his everything he acted as his attorney his agent his personal manager his business manager his public relations agent his messengers enforcer his tennis partner they drank together they laughed together they hoard together do everything together nobody else got near him that man was Henry Bushkin he knew Johnny like nobody else did and he has finally come out thank God and shared stories and insights in a wonderful book called simply Johnny Carson and I'm pleased to bring him here today on the show thrilled I couldn't put the book down thank you so much well I love hearing that and I love being here thank you the bestseller on the bestseller list I am were you worried because you you're the first person that is told the truth about Johnny that there was a very dark side to him well of course you knew that and I you know and and and many who work with him knew that but generally the public didn't and and I think that he was an iconic star as we all know you know it he was brilliant but he was brilliant on television doesn't necessarily mean you brilliant off television you know many actors great actors who have nothing to say off camera we could share this when you met you met him you were very very that was also lucky for you I met him in 1970 shortly thereafter I met you I think yeah I was on the show 1968 and I think we went to a little club where you were appearing in New York yeah with Arthur Cassell I think assume for a moment in time for sure and what we doing this was of the show but what made him so enclosed was he that way at the start because I was in such awe of him you know I I never really knew him he was that way from the very beginning when when he did the show it from New York in 1962 he was finished with the first marriage and about to begin the second marriage and it was a it was a rocky marriage from the beginning and there was lots of drinking and those were the days that he and Ed McMahon were virtually out every night in New York drinking dark days in that sense but a lot of creative energy in the show at the same time and he was I remember I was invited to his apartment in the plaza and Joanna Joanna Joanna first Joan was the first one who jump very fast right then Joanne who was the stewardess who didn't wink we know who was what she met him I got her number first and then Joanna but I remember Joanne sitting there and saying we have no money and they were a duplex and he went how could he not have money at that point well you'll recall I think that in the late 60s the mid-sixties tax was tax bracket was 90% and New York was the most expensive state so deferred comp was a big deal then everybody tried to defer compensation so he deferred quite a bit and he had quite a little bit of income cash flow was but a great salary and and and it eased up in the 70s that happened when you met him that was that was true was he money hungry did money mean a lot to him Joan money meant nothing to him he was once he had money he never gave it one whit of a concerned he was generous to a fault and and he was generous to a fault if you didn't ask him if you asked him he wasn't so generous it was one of those strange dichotomies what you know when he died I know I'm jumping all over the place I have so many things to ask you about but when he died I went on the Larry King show done a lot of shows and everybody came on everybody was saying we were best friends with best friends he was a loner at the end you know look he died alone okay so you start there he died alone and then there was no memorial now what great star dies and there's no memorial but there's no funeral so no funeral no memorial and he dies alone and he fades away so we're talking about him now it's it's a revival of sorts it's it's a renaissance of sorts and and I think it's nice sharing it with you because you had such good times with him people talk about the end but they don't talk about when times were really good between the two of you you know and and I I like those times the times when things were good he for those of you that are listening there may be what under 40 he could make you I went on his show once and I was a star I mean it was incredible moment if he anointed you right if he anointed you and Ed Sullivan annoyed you you were set for life you were done and he had a great eye for talent and he enjoyed talent very few of them do now of the late night house but that was his job you know he really was his job and he didn't feel his job translated to off-camera he felt that was his life and he didn't have to give what he gave on camera that's where people see him exposed in the book and look if you're a Carson fan and you held him on the pedestal you may not like some of the things in the book but he was still brilliant I think he was still the closest one I think now is Jimmy Fallon mm-hm and I go on all the I love Letterman I love Jimmy Kimmel you know but Johnny knew the best straight man in the world he knew to hold he knew when you were going for a joke Andy but he was laughs and something you said it gave you sure you were never so happy in your life when you would go back in his chair Jerry Seinfeld said the most nervous he ever was in his entire life was the first time he appeared on that show which is sort of the feeling I think of most comics who went on that show that was that was their livelihood and we're talking by the way for those who just may have tuned a little a and with Henry Bushkin he's the author of Johnny Carson it's an amazing book and insight into what really goes on in a great stars professional life and private life the good things the bad things it reads without a stop what what made you decide to do the book and someone told me you had to write the whole book before they published it no no no no it it the manuscript was finished when they bought it and they bought it without they bought it as is I didn't have to make any changes or anything they bought it absolutely as is as it turns out I added a few pages that they wanted that told the actual end of the relationship as opposed to where I ended the book I ended the book when he and I shook hands and never smoked again sort of like your end with him that's that's how I ended it but they wanted more of an ending but no I they didn't they bought it as it turns out as when it was finished that's all how was he able or could you this is a better question could he have kept his private life as private now with the internet and Twitter and the paparazzi never leaving you alone I don't think so I I don't think yeah I don't think he'd be able to exist perhaps today you know I think he would be too isolated to to really deal with it I really do I mean you know you've got to be out you know in his business and then his day day he was out you know that it wasn't it wasn't that he was staying at home as he as he got older as the show got older he was more in but in New York he was out all the time I know that but even the women you know that everyone kind of knew he was plain is afraid but you just left it alone that was tell about you know they all say all comics have such a bad dark background I'm still trying to find mine my parents like each other so we're screwed tell him at is the the Midwestern the mother the mother that was just so tight well you know it's it's sort of a tragic tale of sort of Midwestern Stern Protestant almost Midwestern gothic god-fearing people and Johnny came from a very very isolated corner of Iowa I think the most remote county of Iowa where he was born and where his mother was from and whatever whatever tragedy she may have suffered okay she she was so resolute with him that she couldn't pass on any emotional content to him as a result he never got her affection never got her love no matter what he did and I write about some of those things you know how could you give anybody more than the forty seven day cruise here's the gold American Express dead buy whatever you want sia and he doesn't call for 47 days you say what what is with that you know it's like inconceivable in the book also you said when he got back he said so how was it and she said I'm so happy to be home [Laughter] that's hot happy she went to the show and someone asked her well what do you think and she said I didn't think John was very funny tonight that's your mom baby come on your mother gorgeous clothes gorgeous shoes new apartment but also with his sons I found one thing that really disturbed me we had a falling out and he said I didn't call him I called him first call I made I called to say I'm leaving and he hung up on me and that's a whole other story and I'm not going there now but we had this big falling out and I went off to something when his son died in the I wrote him a note and I said I don't care what's happened between us what you think's happened between us but this happens it should not happen to anybody anybody never I did I did the same thing I did the same thing and I got not a response from him but a response from I don't some assistant secretary somewhere to say thank you for the call that's was i gratified del you know was I happy I even called him no I wasn't even happy I called did he how many children will let to to know and was he talking with them was it yeah it was never a close relationship I mean you your mom you understand he but he never had a close relationship with either with any other I mean I think I think the the estate and the trust got the money I think he died John worth close to half 500 million or so okay now I think most of it went to the trust and I think they contributed awful lot every year to charity and she's gonna be very high I'm not sure I allegedly I have a friend who was allegedly dating her I think she's a great woman she allegedly married him is having allegedly great time with Johnny's money okay well fair enough hey listen hey what the hell know if you couldn't read good for you he's written about his years as Johnny Carson's lawyer and comment on the book is terrific is called Johnny Carson and it's published by oh here I go even Dolan which is imprint of here we go how human and we're gonna have more right after this break I Joan Rivers I'm in today for leather lobate and I'm talking with Henry Bushkin who was a major major player when he not only was Johnny Carson's lawyer but a lawyer for a lot of people a lot of power there in California but we're talking maybe about his book on Johnny Carson is the age of a mythic start over do you think because he was I mean you couldn't touch him I think so I think in television it is perhaps not in movies but I think in television it's not possible to command the audience that he did the amount of people for as long as he did for you know the the he was he was the sort of the litmus test for the country for a long time you know what he said about politics people talked about please and that doesn't happen today you know there's so many choices today it's so diverse and I think it's teii I think I don't know that he would exist today you know maybe it was his time then was he right to leave you know I I will leave when they cut my hands well III think he was wrong to leave when he did I think he should have left years earlier Oh interesting because people such as yourself at the time if if you were being considered to take over the Tonight Show you'd like to know when you know like okay fine but when and if he wouldn't give you a when there's no reason sticking around and he never gave a win I remember you referred to a short list at one point well in my day there was never a short list because it was never a list because he would never agree to it you know to to leave that was one of the problems actually well I think in order to have a smooth transition you know if you were going to replace him for example you like to know okay wend yeah well that's what and also but they also get a feeling like Leno which I thought was hilarious only relieved in five years I said wait hits him he's not gonna leave exactly what happens right right well you know I you know it's it's a way of life it's it's it's an enormous power base it's an enormous responsibility and you know it's a great job when you think about it it's a great job if it works what about Vegas I loved in the book when you talk about no wives are allowed and they he just went and had a good time that's what life was like I mean it was the same thing for Sinatra no different there's no difference for Bob Hope it was no different come on it was no different Johnny was one of many but he was he was a superstar so his life really deserves attention in that sense but in another sense that's how it was in Vegas in those days you know that you worked Vegas in those days I was the opening act of all these guys having a good time sure of course you know the rumor was the top floor of the Riviera Hotel was locked off a Bob Hope okay and certain rooms were locked Johnny ever and it sounds so stupid but I met my husband through him and Eddie said he was he wasn't inquisitive you know Edgar at that time I had represented IBM and all this and all that and you had so many entrees bring Johnny over to Buckingham Palace that this Johnny didn't want to do what he said there was no say oh I can do this I have the wherewithal to do this no interest all at one point he was offered a seat on the board of coca-cola and any and he turned it down now that's the probably the most iconic company we have and he turned it down he said what what do I have in common with those people I said well it's like two times a year a couple of hours and it's a big time position I mean no no interest no no it was a meeting people are just so sad in that sense because he could have offered up so much more but he didn't and also could take it opportunity to go places he didn't like well we did a very sassy friend we would go to England for Wimbledon and and the South of France and we did go all over Europe I mean we've done that it's not look he was the type of guy that he got anxious when he was away from the show too long I mean that's just what happened you know he got nervous I mean he just did I mean it was like the lack of applause was like the lack of blood you know what I mean it was like he had to get back to it now what happened to the two of you what caused the rift the when the companies started growing in a very successful way taking more of his time as a executive after all was his company and my time not away from him but but paying attention to the companies that that's when we split in effect it was too much for him he wanted the companies shut down of course I didn't so they were shut down and I left and and and it was a three-minute ending and we never really spoke again did you see it coming over the total what in in the sense that I knew it was coming but you still are shocked I mean you you know it's coming but you've you know you still it's like someone's really ill and they die it's still a shock yeah it was our relationship was not good at that time so did you mediate parties because California's are very Holly was a very small place yeah what would happen when you bump into each other we never did we never did there was a moment in time that we may have gotten to or left a restaurant moments apart but we never did bump into each other but then again he never really went out to restaurants after he retired only in Malibu so let's go to this four wives how many of them did you know all of them you knew the first one job dad I did I actually did now did she end up okay No she she wasn't okay when she got divorced from him she was gone a little bit yeah she was drinking drinking nuts more like a flower child okay that took maybe too many drugs I don't drugs don't know but I suspect okay and then Joanne who wanted to be a star herself I was involved well III think it's fair to say that marriage was not a happy marriage okay I don't know that it was ever happy I'm sure they were in love at some point but when I met Johnny it was no good tell about the first time which is hilarious that's how I met him I was hired to go along with him and a private eye arthur Cassell and one other guy traipsing across 48th Street to this apartment somewhere on East 48th where she had an apartment so we suspected and we bribed our way in in effect and sure enough we got in and it was it was an apartment that she had decorated with all the stuff that was discarded when they redecorated the place even Plaza so the tragic thing was seeing his reaction to his furniture and his mementos now I meant it to be funny and we talked about it it's kind of funny but at the time I can assure you we wish we weren't there you know it's like it was sort of tragic because he humiliated you know as anybody okay so when he put his arm against the wall to start sobbing I see the third he poked it out from the jacket and author had a 38 and the Private Eye out of 38 and it was like it was like a very strange circumstance but we got the evidence and of course Frank Gifford Frank Gifford doesn't remember you must be amused by that I hilarious I don't remember and that was Joanne I think the publisher was delighted when he said that that was worth news for a couple of days and then Joanne and Joanna once said to me this was a third wife now she once said I know where we were and she said to me he can bring all the hookers he wants into the house I'm gonna die mrs. Carson I was in shock I was a nice Jewish girl just he was really cheating around well look Joanna was a very sophisticated lady I mean come on she was and and she was very good at at at getting right in there on the social strata you know that yes she loved being mrs. Carson and and the problem with loving being mrs. Carson is that sometimes you feel that you really are mrs. Carson and therefore you're entitled to be the president of share and you're the president you should be in the design business and all of a sudden mr. Carson isn't so happy you know tell about her that she got first oh this is Joan Rivers and we're talking just so that you know we're on WNYC and WNYC dog if you go into the Internet I'm talking about Henry Bushkin and we're talking about the Johnny Carson book which he wrote called very suit good title Johnny Carson you don't screw around with titles thanks the publisher that wasn't my original title but that's what would you tell them with a hard act to follow I agree you know just let them know as well go on to Joanna which was the third way she would to be very very social and what did the power the cable mr. Carson I was unhappy when mrs. McMahon got a seat ahead of her the Academy Awards it was at the inauguration President Reagan but but that's that's that's the bet she she was maybe by happenstance maybe three rows because of Joe well three rows behind Victoria McMahon who happened to be seated with Frank Sinatra's wife Barbara because they really were friends you know happened to be seating with Sinatra who happened to be the producer who happened to command so Joanna was aggravated it caused an entire eruption later that evening it led to great difficulty between myself and Carson and it led to the president calling Carson and apologizing for the seating and when I wrote that I wrote it to say wow it's the power of Carson this is the power of this guy and then I said wait a second this also shows how fragile relationships are I mean we had just kicked the hell out of NBC got ownership of The Tonight Show and all of a sudden my job was on the line because of a poor seat you know it's like give me a break and that's that's how I wrote it and the book where the book doesn't stuff I think he's so honest in the book what did you leave out and you're not gonna tell me but I'm still gonna ask you can you tell me anything that you thought I should leave this out yeah there were many things that I sort of knew about that I never saw firsthand that I didn't want to write as a memoir that I participated in or saw in any way I knew it went on you know and others have reported it others have written about it and so it's not that I have any secrets to share but it's it's moments that I found out about that may be shared by others but certainly not by me so yeah I left I left names out and I left moments out that was so embarrassing that you just don't want I didn't think I wrote anything that was terribly embarrassing to tell you the truth feelings I'll get I'll give you Joanna Carson oh I'll give you Joanna Carson when asked about the book okay her only concern was how she looked in the pictures I guess at and if you look she looks pretty good the fetchers yes so so I think she loved the book what have you you were so powerful are you big time power now you break with Johnny whose day friends and who was scared too nobody from The Tonight Show ever called me again okay so we'll take Peter Lorre salad oh that Pete there were two producers Peter Sally and vertical never spoke to me again where I live okay ever okay so so Peter Lou Sally for many years you know this he was the Associate Producer and nobody quite knew what Peter little Sally did because Freddy really did everything and time and time again we would save his job because NBC thought it was superfluous then he doesn't return phone calls and then he becomes I think David Letterman's producer now he's off to Craig Ferguson and like never heard a word to the matter but when I guess nobody nobody no yeah and I and no I never heard from Bobby Quinn again I never heard from Freddie to Cordova again I never heard from anybody again but I think that was par for the course it was I was having lunch in the Beverly Hills Hotel and I was right after I'd done the break and I've been fired and he committed suicide my career was in the toilet and Ed McMahon saw me and got up and walked across the whole restaurant to say hello and that was probably the bravest thing he ever did in his life because he knew we'd get back to Johnny that he said alone I thought you shouldn't be doing this yeah you know buddy that was it you would right yeah right it wasn't so much that they didn't want to do it they were scared if they did and he found out you're absolutely right it was very very he kept grudges he was not he was not willing to look at anything other than black or white you know I mean if that person's out of my life he's out of your life as well --shoes yeah what happened to you after that how many clients stay with you how many clients left because you had a huge law practice but you also had that great power base well it wasn't so much a question of clients it was a question of lawyers because because my time was mostly devoted to Johnny you were a client of the firm for a while yes okay but you never got good service cuz you were busy with Johnny so so whatever at Kareem abdul-jabbar another good I was a client of mine but I didn't have time so invariably those clients now were aligned with other partners so when and when my career with him was over basically my showbiz career was over I mean that was basically yet and happily so by the way Mims it wasn't unhappy to leave let me ask you what brought me back now what is the book who is called you that you didn't think would call you now the book is come out Joe and of course it how do I look I I've heard literally from no one from the Carson side not one but there's no one to hear from you know I mean who's there their two sons are voiceless I mean they don't speak if you know what I mean they just don't have anything to say and the nephew lives in Thornton and he lose at the airport so he could fly his plane in and out that's his life and the two lawyers that run the estate I don't think ever met Carson so when you talk about who called who was there to call you know and and so I never I've heard from thousands of people you know I've heard from not one single late-night talk-show host not one not one not one nor has one sort of even mentioned the book now I'll give you an example David Letterman the book is now number one on the bestseller list okay New York Times has reviewed it they loved the book thank goodness and David Letterman when he talked about the book he has carrot top on talking about a pillow were a bag pops out of the pillow where you put over your date's head if you wake up and she's really ugly that's what they talk about but they didn't talk about Carson they didn't talk about the subject because you see every one of them would have to acknowledge that he was really better than they are yeah and I don't want to do that that's my conclusion and that's the conclusion of most everybody I talked to and we talked about this phenomenon because I've heard from literally thousands you know the book has been reviewed by thousands of people Amazon reviewers you know all over the world people have reviewed the book about one late-night talk show and I'm writing about that that phenomenon that they don't want to talk about him they just don't because David Letterman said given the choice I'd watch Carson so you know he still is right and still so above it he looms he it isn't it cool in a certain way that we're talking about and he's having sort of a renaissance because he sort of faded away anyway but also you look back in your eyes he set the bar yeah and nobody's know that's what a pleasure to tell you with Henry Bushkin author Johnny Carson I am Joan Rivers and I think I have to read this at the end oh yeah oh all right I'll join a pleasure I could talk to you for the hour but unfortunately my best friend Margie Stern is coming up next and she'll kill me I'll excuse me [Music]

Channel: WNYC

Views: 805,050

Rating: 4.718132 out of 5

Keywords: WNYC, Public, Radio, Joan Rivers (Author), Leonard Lopate, The Leonard Lopate Show, Johny Carson, Henry Bushkin

Id: RiCwfw6RBgY

Length: 32min 55sec (1975 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 13 2014