Jim Carmichael's interview for the Veterans History Project at Atlanta History Center

okay good morning mr. Carmichael this is Kerry King and we're here at the Atlanta History Center in Atlanta Georgia and we are also here representing both the History Center and the Library of Congress it is April 13th 2018 at 10:37 a.m. in the morning and a beautiful April 19th morning we're here to get your statement I want to thank you for being here today and tell you that almost all the interviewers here are also Vietnam veterans we know you are Vietnam veteran and we're here today to let you tell your story so to that end I'm gonna try to get you started here I'm sure to kind of tell us where you grew up and where you're from and take us started take us up to your high school graduation sure yeah I did graduate from high school so I was born in Alexandria Virginia when my dad was at Quantico and he was transferred down to Cherry Point North Carolina that was where my brother was born and they were his outfit he flew helicopters so he was he outfit I'm not I think it was hmm 161 but I this is your dad that was my dad yeah I had was a Marine Corps officer uh well he started out in the Navy and they made him during the war he they made him a flight instructor so he didn't get over to and then when Korea broke out he went from fixed-wing to rotary wing and flew medevac missions and so forth so we went from there to while dad was over in Korea we moved down to Miami and waited for him to come back my mom was born in Sweetwater Texas so I don't remember exactly how we got from Miami to Sweetwater but when when he came back I remember going with him to Bell Helicopter and Fort Worth to apply for a job and so from there from Sweetwater we moved to Fort Worth and then over to Arlington which is where I did all my school grade school and so you were born what year I was born in 1948 November 11 so just this Marine Corps Birthday by a day but you know you're a baby boomer yeah I'm a baby boomer so went to kindergarten and you know up through high school Sam Houston in high school didn't get thrown in jail but which you're working on it at any rate no I wasn't offered you can go to Vietnam or you know to jail but I was I was pretty rebellious at that point in my life so so you're 18 I was 18 my dad was he was down in South America demonstrating helicopter and so I went over to Fort Worth and joined the Marine Corps and he was not terribly happy with that when I when he got back oh he wasn't even though he's a career marine oh yeah he he wanted me to be an officer and you know he could have gotten me taught me how to fly helicopters and I just wanted to be a ground pounder I wasn't it was that fall from you know however many thousand feet that kind of concern me so at any rate yeah so I joined in I went in on the delay plan so like in the February or something of 67 and then we went to boot camp in June did you go to Parris Island no everybody on the west side of Mississippi River goes to you know you become a Hollywood marine or on the east side you go over to Parris Island so if you were on the because you were living in Texas you went to Camp Pendleton or no well San Diego San Diego right and but it was the same marine basic yeah same d eyes they did also teach at Parris Island right we just didn't have sand fleas so it was the same guys yelling at you and you know so you did your entire basic training there mm-hmm and then we went up to Camp Pendleton and you know did more specialty stuff and they put me in mortars okay so you had an infantry MOS right Yeah right military occupation go and so they made me a mortar guy and I like to blow up things and that was a great way to do it and so you know we did our staging battalion and then went overseas and they said by the way don't miss this airplane you're gonna regret it so we ended up in camp at Camp Hansen in Okinawa and stayed there for about ten days till we got over the unit now well it was everybody in staging battalion but we had Air Wing guys you know guys that worked on airplanes and so forth and grunts and it was just a mixed so we might have been in boot camp with some of those guys but after that everybody scattered to their various jobs and so I didn't know anybody that I was on that airplane with except you know the guys that had been in our battalion you know in training and which wasn't very many and so when I got to Danang everybody just scattered to wherever they wanted you to go so I ended up at feu by with echo company second Battalion 26 Marines and if you'd spell food by for the sure Phu and then Bai so it's two words when I got there it was raining you know the tail end of November of 67 and when that the company was out running ambushes and so I had to wait till a company got in and you know I was starting to get used to it raining and raining and raining and what was here that you reported into loves echo company second Battalion 26 Marines the line company and so our skipper captain breeding wanted to get us out of feu by you know and and give his lieutenants an opportunity to call in fire missions and learn how to do things and we were out guarding bridges and running ambushes and you know that kind of thing so there wasn't a lot of contact we did run into some Vietcong setting up an ambush one night and that was my first experience with rounds coming back my direction and so that was before they chromed the chamber of the m16 so I got a couple of rounds off and then it was holding a grenade all night and so before we went in yeah and you know in the morning there was just that little speck of rust you know it was just I don't know I'm sure it was my fault but a lot of trouble with the engine yeah so did you later on get a chrome yes right before we went up to caisson we had to turn in the old ones and got the new ones and they had those closed in flash suppressors so he couldn't stick him on the chair and turn the you know cut the wire but yeah it was it was a better weapon then so your first contact you were talking about was on an ambush patrol an IED ambush patrol right and when would that have been general early December somewhere in there yeah so we were we were on in ambushes up until we got in there c-130s to fly up the caisson so right before we left for caisson things started picking up as you remember and the big trucks that they were running ammo they were you know just going back and forth and you know so fortunately we didn't lose any bridges or so forth but it was it was that adjustment from being back in the states to fatigue and learning how to stay awake and that kind of thing so it was kind of preparation for going up north do you remember when you when you land it in Danang and you were coming off the airplane do you remember your first impressions of Vietnam I was hungry when we left camp Hanson we you know they've gotten a big bus and they took us to the airport well the airplane was that we were going to go on was wait at the end of the runway and it was raining cats and dogs and they said there's your airplane so we were all soaked by the time we got on the airplane and c-130s not really built for comfort and there's no heater in there so it was rather brisk in there so it was nice to get out someplace that was warm because that we were still cold and wet and you know go that way there's the chow hall turn your orders into you know the guy on the right and go get some chow and so by the time we ate chow got her orders and said goodbye the last couple of guys I knew and they were going someplace else and catch that c-47 over there and it's going to foo by and flying the sea c-47 to food buys a lot of trees down there if you have you around food by further no I was further south in the 1st Infantry Division army first temperatures ok area I was just north of Saigon all the way up to Kwan Laurie which was on the Cambodian border about 8 miles off the border so we had different kind of terrain I was in food by a couple times and then not because I was stationed up there but because I had I got diverted and the direct right we're going and we had to go north to land because of ground attacks during the Tet Offensive and I sure stuff so well it was just there was just a lot of trees and my introduction to jungle this was not North Texas this was if if this airplane goes down this is not going to be pleasant you know so you know I think my introduction was when we landed at Phu Bai and I'm thinking war and we got off the airplane and I'm looking for echo companies area and there's some guys playing baseball and I'm thinking wait a minute this is this is not right you know and I nobody's shooting nobody's doing anything and so I was I probably turned my gear in and you know gotten my orders and whatever and then the guys doing line watch came by and they're carrying everything but the kitchen sink and I thought okay I probably made the right place you know so yeah right so you know I was learning the Vietnamese you know the graveyards and how that works and spirits can't turn right corners and who's making up these rules I don't know but you know we were half the time we were then a pagoda we're laying out next to a river or you know so there were a couple of times where we had contact but most of the time it was guys just tired of being out in the rain yeah you know and so for me it was just I got to stay awake yeah you know learn how to do that and live with fatigue and eat c-ration just a case on january 16th we left from Phu Bai they gave us these pack boards you know I don't know where they got them some masochist came up with it it's how to load as much gear on a human being without making his knees buckle you know so rucksacks are well know these were I never seen anything like this this was it was I don't know what I'm gonna get this right but it wasn't anything like what you're talking about it was a board that would fit on your back I think it was like fiberglass I may have that wrong it's been a long time but they just wanted to stick as much stuff on us as as we as they could and you know I'm almost carrying my own body weight and you know well you've succeeded I'm officially a horse you know so you know we were just carrying everything and everybody's carrying more ammo than normal officers are carrying rifles and more frags you know the marine flak jacket is you know so more water more everything and you know being an ammo humper now we're gotten more rounds to carry than a normal five so it was that was you know and then they got us in the in the c-130s and if I get down I am never getting back up again you know so we flew and got up to Khe Sanh and probably something like that but once they get on you know get everybody in there then it's Oh check the tires or something you know so you're in there and it's starting to get hot and guys are going would you like to see what I had for lunch you know yeah so 80 pounds yeah it was yeah it was just I well I did sign up for this but not this specifically you know so you know we landed it fubar yeah exactly so we landed at Khe Sanh and nobody shooting and all right sack outside of the runway and next day we humped over to what ended up is the battalion hill where the battalion headquarters was located and but that came a little later we were just out there Hill 558 and that was the introduction to clouds being down on the ground when it got dark it really got dark and I thought holy mackerel they could sneak up a whole regiment here and I don't know that we'd ever see them you know the I've read a lot about caisson and I have a lot of friends over there and the it was probably one of the worst most untenable positions in Vietnam would you agree with that well I'm very thankful that the summer before you had the Marines taken those hills because we don't want another DnB and foo you know so we had till 9:15 950 or 10:15 and then it was 861 and eights 881 south and north and all that so we took the hills around there I I think the idea that we understood what the French did wrong you only have one Co you don't have to yeah and we had taken all the high ground so they can't get the cannons up there I don't know that was untenable but I was up on one of the hills I wasn't down at the combat base so they were taking all the heavy stuff we were just taking mortar rounds and I really don't know you got there mid January I got there mid January and how often was the caisson area taking either incoming mortars or 122 Rockets it was it wasn't right away but once it started it was just somebody was going to die on our Hill everyday it felt like and so we just had a time when he didn't get out of your bunker and we got hit on February the fifth when we had a just one strand of concertina around us we didn't really have bunkers much to speak of and so we were unprepared and the helicopters are trying to supply everybody and we're just up there and so we had everybody firing for us Camp Carroll and everybody was you know the aircraft coming in Navy and Air Force we had taken anybody you know stuff and so it hits your Hill well they're worth I'm told that 861 alpha though a hill I was on was the key to taking you know go from one hill to the next to the next it was the key to taking case on I don't know I don't really care but Henry Bay I may not have that major bag was the guy who really saved a whole bunch of us because he understood he could read the intelligence reports coming in and he noticed that he thought there was just one battalion coming at us but there were two so they SiC the artillery on the 1st battalion that was coming to get us so we were going to get hit like this and he wasn't he just missed the second battalion that came at us so these were North Vietnamese regulars and they got inside the wire and that was the night I lost some buddies yeah so it was my introduction wake up this is we're playing for all the marbles here you know you do you have to have that point to where this is real and you you've got to start thinking about life differently so they just came in with guns blazing and Tommy eichler probably saved our Hill Corporal Eichler we had two or three officers on our NAR so Tommy just he just came alive I remember talking to Tommy Beto I could see ice eh el ER and what was his rank he was he was corporal corporal but it was like the Lord had just prepared this guy because when he said when he first joined the company he was just a big screwball you know but he just came of age that night he was carrying guys he was bringing an ammo up he was he was doing everything because the skipper's and they're calling in all kinds of support and somebody was had to be out there doing that stuff I'm in mortars so you stay with the mortar tube so I didn't know what was going on is your platoon steady firing mortars Ternes right we were as a matter of fact we were firing firing them so fast that we got to down the tube at one time which can get a little hairy so you know because the sound is so loud you you just miss that it hadn't gone out yet you know so it was just the loudest you know it's like it and it's hard to think you're yelling that the guy next to you because so we not not me particularly but there were guys down there you know hand hand and grenade - grenade and and all that stuff and how far did they get from where you were to the to the fence where they penetrated how far away were they from you from me about I don't know 30 meters but there's a bomb crater in between there they'd had to come around this way as opposed to going through the bomb crater I guess they could have but I had no idea that they were that close so were you firing your mortars to come in where about where they had breached a wire or were you catching them first well I was just breaking out the rounds I mean I you know this is really my first real big experience at this so you know taking the safety pins off them sticking them you know and then they go to the mortar tube so I'm not sure exactly where they're firing all right so at that time were you or what I used to call a gun bunny yep the guys that are dropping oh no no doubt using and drop in defusing no gun bunny or no no you have the gunner who's who does the sights right you know as you keep the bubbles level on the site and the a Gunners the guy drops in so as soon as the sights are set then you dropped around down and so I'm just one of the guys in the trench you know going and getting as many rounds as yeah you know I'm just breaking out you know okay so and that's the way it works in a mortar squad you know so after a while it it settled down a little bit the clouds are in so we're trying to get medevacs in and they can't find the hill so the HST got a helicopter support something or other he had to pop a flare so that the helicopters could see okay you see that flare that's where you come straight down and that's where the landing zone is so most of the guys that died that night they had their legs blown off you know just from so many frags coming in and we I think we only had one guy that survived out of that so we had basically 7k is killed in action a lot of wounded you know that were down around that first Platoon area where they came came up the hill and I'm on the top of the hill you know it's kind of like this and I just didn't know that was going on so that the NVA took out all the crew-served weapons that you know the machine guns or rockets and mortars and they took out your borders yeah they took they just took out everything yeah that was crew-served on that side and the amazing thing was for me I had been in that platoon before down in Phu Bai got moved over to Jimmy appleman's squad and you know you know how that works it's Wow how did that happen you know so God had a better place yes the Lord had had a different plan for me and so we're all praying for you know the the Sun to come up so it burns off the fog and and by that time the attack last would you say well it started about 3:00 in the morning and Sun came up 6:30 7 o'clock something like that was it over by then yeah it was it was long over by then they didn't you know they didn't get but I don't know 30 or 40 meters inside the wire yeah it was far enough but you know those Nikkei I do you know oh gosh I couldn't I'd more than more than 20 oh I'm sure there was there were there were some dead NVA out on that they came up this finger I think they had been running trials you know several nights before just you know so they were on drugs you know and at that point it was okay let's go clean up the mess you know and starting to get the guys out and you lost seven guys we lost yes I believe so something like that and then we had some guys that were really severely wounded some guys you know as you get a piece of shrapnel or something and it wasn't it wasn't too bad so basically you couldn't get the dust off in until after the attack was over right right wounded were probably two and a half three hours yeah because they that when they came through the wire it was just a hail of grenades from what one of the guys told me and he said just one right after another after another and I mean they knew what they're doing and they were good soldiers but we determined this is this are Hill and you can't have it you know although if that other battalion had come the other way then it you know I might not be here but this was February 5th February 5th right 1968 1968 this was basically six days after the start of the Tet Offensive somewhere in there I don't remember what the official day doesn't know right right yeah I'm gonna share this story with you because you were you were right the caisson area I was with an after unit in the first entry Division and the morning of February the second we received a telex which is the for those of you who are Millennials that's what it was before emails in fact right yeah messages and we received a communique that said that caisson the combat base had taken 1300 122 millimeter rockets in a five-hour period time yeah all that do you remember them taking that kind of income oh yeah yeah because they came right over our hill from Laos because they were dug into those rock hills and I remember when those rockets would come over it was just I don't know if it was a concussion nut concussion but the sound waves or something I remember just kind of doing this when they came over it's the most terrifying so it's it's horrible you know I don't know what those German what we call those rockets with or the Russians you know that just must have been awful but this was yeah this was pretty bad and and we've watched the rounds land down there and I'm thinking man I'm sure glad I'm not down there but fortunately they didn't they could have wiped us all out if they'd have tried on our hell they wouldn't have taken much at all what was your rank in February 68 somewhere up there I got promoted to Lance Corporal which is e3 yeah I think it was a PFC then okay you know you know I'm the low man on the food chain just about so you know if they say you go do this then you go do that you know so it's just whatever they wanted done you know filling sandbags and digging trenches and things like that and so that's what we did and you're what was the particular Hill you world I was on Hill 861 alpha and 861 was that three hundred meters away or something it was a little higher how did you get your resupply of ammunition food well they had they called it a gaggle so they have all those 46 is ch-46 helicopters and I remember them shooting one down one day and he landed down at the hill of our we could see him down there and do you know then they formed the circled the wagons you know and let one landed and got the crew out and I don't remember whether I'm sure they used it as as an artillery target just to get rid of it in there but it was something was going on that hill all the time actually we had the Arvind Air Force dropped napalm on the side of her hill which was exciting yeah somebody called in some bad coordinates yeah I don't know you know see that hill there you know it's supposed to be Marines but let's let's see what they cook off you know really yeah yeah right so okay so after this big battle you had on on February 5th 68 were you wounded at all no and I hey I'm up here no it was just it was just attrition after that it was you know learning okay from 9 o'clock until 2:00 in the afternoon they're gonna more to you so state you know well it took a little trial and error to learn that and it was just I'm probably gonna die up here anyway so I may as well have as much fun as I can you know which is digging you know it was so you write letters and you do all that stuff and I heard it described by others and it sort of fit my own personal experience of 40 hours of boredom interrupted that day right I can start exactly you know exactly so tell me about after February 5th did you have any other significant contacts on the hill late 61a no nobody tried to take the hill again it it was just whoever that NVA mortar to down there that we can't find they were good and they just we had guys you know guys count replacements coming in and you know start taking incoming because when the helicopters come in you know that works and they were going right call a helicopter back cuz you know he's dead and so it was just stayed there through your entire tour no no no we somewhere in April we got word somewhere in there that that the guy at DnB and food general oh he's just brought another couple of divisions by and just in case you're bored you know so I remember that night everybody's on red alert because Japs here and he's you know and Jeff for those of you that are listening you spelled right Agia P yes was the supreme commander of the North Vietnamese Army right that kind of the was the mastermind of both Jim and foo as well as the other offenses right so we we had no no no I'm glad you did that the voice of right so we had we had the first time they dropped sensors along trails that they could tell who was coming and that was one of the ways that Colonel bag or major bag understood that we were about to get hit he just misread something and I'm not speaking ill of him at all because he boy the work he did was just tremendous so we had to be 52s and you know you don't even want to get close to one of those arc lights you know so it was just every day we had to start stockpiling chow because they could those resupply so we were start we got down to a meal a day and half canteen of water a day and so we were we were getting pretty hungry and you know I'm not going to use it to brush my teeth I'm just gonna you know it was we were dirty and smelly and you know so it was it was a relief to get off that hill we went up to 861 up at 861 they hadn't taken all their c-ration empties and thrown him over the wire they just left them there so we had rats up there and I'm sure they were doing WWE you know at night you have rats crawling on you at night and you know just Olie macro can this get any worse you know so and then during the day we were going back down to the Alpha and you know clearing the land mines yeah and all that stuff getting all the mortar rounds and rocket rounds and so that you know get them in a sling so you can and then we start losing to other guys up there so it was just how we come in fire or yeah from incoming and and I jump I know you're you are being general here but I know from what I've read about all those hills around Khe Sanh you guys were taking a pounding on a daily basis and and from what I know and you could confirm this or not but that you would you could sometimes get mortar to 10:00 in the morning while you're trying to have a cup of coffee and sometimes it 1 o'clock in the morning so you weren't getting sleep because you didn't know when to relax if you could ever well we had one short round from Khe Sanh yeah it just didn't clear the hill one more click on the elevation and I heard it come over and when it hit hits so close and it hit up bunker killed a couple of Marines and you know now Carmichael you know friendly fire yeah it was friendly fire and you know they didn't know what hit him which was you know good and so it was just it was just something all the time as soon as you crossed over the DMZ well it was the Mo's base combat base in Vietnam so you were taking fire from North Vietnam and from Laos am i right I mean gosh I I'd you know my little piece of that hill was my whole universe you know and I don't know what's going on I can see the rounds landing down it you know at the base and nobody has it easy any place around here you know we we take the the radio batteries that were used and hook up your transistor radio and you could catch the the news and so forth well everybody was getting hit you know so we're thinking is is the whole country just going to implode or what's going on here and it was it was as much a political media victory as it was anything else they didn't win but you know you've got the media on you know that loves that kind of thing and so we came off and now we're the bad guys and you know so it was there were there were some humorous things that went oh we got we got ice cream one night the helicopter landed and they gave us ice cream you know he's a little Dixie cup things yeah well by that time your stomach shrunk and the ice cream just went right through us you know so you'd only eat one of them you know and we're gonna save them and anybody got a refrigerator you know it's like oh no this is going to be gone in the morning and everybody's you know running out and using the bathroom you know and holy no macros so it was gosh it was just everyday okay well I'm here at sunset I'm made it through another one but who knows you know so and they moved you from hill alpha eight one six - they are say X x1 Elsa they moved you date six one did that then become your your duty station at that point right you know I don't remember what the what the scuttlebutt was once we got up there oh we're only going to be here for you know at night you're fighting the rats and and you know a during the day you're just trying to ok just aim the mortar tube over another twenty degrees and you got fresh targets so their LZ was kind of in the middle of the hill so there was no grass no nothing so when the helicopters would land there you've just got a dust storm yeah and so we stayed up there week or two something like that I think Foxtrot and golf had to take the hill below us so that we could walk off of 861 get down to battalion and I remember watching that firefight Titan headquarters down there right at 558 and so we get firefight well it was a firefight to clear the Hill of North Vietnamese so that we could do this go down go down that way so we humped off the hill and and you know well now they're gonna kill us going down the hill you know so we got down to battalion well battalion had deserted that area they'd gone wherever it is they went and so all the bunkers are there and we occupied the bunkers and and then we experienced heavy artillery down there we lost four corpsman in one round it was a there was a creek down there and you know I want to go get all the scuzz off my body and so I I was still back up in one of the bunkers and I heard the rounds come in and then I heard corpsman up you know what that means and they were walking four abreast and one round it was a rocket came in and just took him out one-handed - yeah they've been through the whole thing and we were just a couple of days away from getting out of there and so I was thinking we're not getting out of here that's just a pipe dream you know so and then when the helicopters came in and you know we got some altitude it was like what did we just do yeah it was very anticlimactic you know it wasn't like the reporters are out there you men are going in you made it through all this stuff and I kept waiting for the soundtrack was just it was like oh it's over you know and so we got on the helicopters and flew us to Camp Carroll and you know I got off or you know we landed and Camp Carroll of food buy notice Camp Carroll Camp Carroll all right I don't remember would maybe battalion went there I don't know but I remember getting off helicopter yeah in front of me slipped and fell and I went head over teakettle on you know I thought oh man I'm gonna die you know this is so there's nothing but targets running around they got no place to put these guys and one of the guys in our mortar squad had a coke and it was cold that was the best coke I ever drank you know or at least got some of it and you know we settled in and then they started shooting heavy artillery at Camp Carroll and that's where the one-seven-five work yeah you know the big howitzers and man when those things go off you know we were about thirty meters from them and nobody said oh by the way here it goes you know and and oh my gosh so rounds are so big about 75 howitzer that they have to be loaded in the breech block with a hydraulic loader yes two guys can't push the shell in the tube but they were accurate holy mackerel they were accurate probably so you actually had a hooch yeah we did there were bunkers I don't know who was in there before but you know we had a bunker and it say again okay well I know it wasn't going to stop a North Vietnamese 150 to artillery but it was you know if it rains we protection yeah maybe a mortar round but okay well at any rate I'm still got my whole body here and I at least made you feel secure though yeah you know maybe if I put my helmet and then a flak jacket it climbed under the helmet then I might have a chance but but oh well of a minute we figured out that the roof wasn't tent yeah no I wasn't in one of those things so in anyway yeah it was just kind of refitting and you know all that and so did you stay in Camp Carroll with your unit with echo company right I realized I was having trouble seeing and so I ended up down at Danang to get some glasses well my mom sent me the civilian prescription and they looked at it and said thank you for coming but you know we don't do civilian prescriptions so I when I I got to Danang I got on a bus I mean you didn't have a Pearl Vision sir no I got on this bus and you know they got the screens on the bus because their taketh well this kid got on there with shower shoes swimming suit in a towel and I'm look like you know what's wrong with this picture livid did I did I get off a planet Earth and land on Mars that's what it felt like you know like yeah it's uh worried you go I'm going swimming you know you see you doing what do they still do that you know and it was just it was like being another planet yeah you know and when I came home yeah you know people were just walking around like everything was right nothing was normal yeah so you know I got back up to my unit and you guys missed me no not really you know so we did Camp Carroll and then we humped over to the river which you remember how far that River was Edie okay well there was a river not yet too far from the way the perfume river the perfume river um well in any rate there was there wasn't no well there was a river down there we ended up with and we were getting you know replacements in and and so we set up down there and another like the rivers because when you crossed them you always came out with leeches on your private parts well for me it was always the rice paddies you know that's let's dump a bunch of leeches in here and yeah so you know it was the first time we were able to actually get the you know crud off of us and so you went were you patrolling then we all wanted no we were just we were just around there we you know I I don't know who's organizing this thing so our mortar tubes up on the there's this little hill there and I remember there was this tree stump up there these are eighty ones we're talking no I was in 60s they trained me in 80 once gave me two hours on the 60 and then put me in 60s oh you know they they could have made me a a pilot for you know so the army gave you the 60s and and because we wanted to be rid of well yeah well the army got everything better than we did let's just give it to the Marines you know if it doesn't work give it to the Marines so at any rate I things that stand out were all of a sudden out of this tree stump comes all these scorpions I mean there in 10 or 20 of them coming out of this thing Mama's up there somewhere and I'm thinking this is not a good place to sleep so you know we killed them all but it was just how many ways believe you die here you know so these were the little woods these weren't a bit I've seen those big ones you know you've said you saw the the centipedes yeah yeah I went smitten by one oh did you yeah raised two well they almost had to dust you know dust me off back because the welt got infected it was on my leg and I could show you still to this day I've still got a thing for the air see that right there okay centipedes were horrible holy mackerel and they just didn't stop when they you know you're digging a you're digging a trench and all of a sudden you see this the dirt and he just keeps coming out of that you know and they're about this long and going good they worried they were as long about half as long as a ruler such a big man so in any rate it was just so from there we moved on a little bit we were heading over to contine yeah okay so we got to contine and lovely but yeah another there was content and there was there was a little River Creek or something down there and there was what they called the washout so they had tanks and I felt pretty good with those tanks around there you know and though there's a river there were sea crabs in that River I'm thinking wait a minute I have no idea but they were these little things with the you know the pincers and I thought this none of this making any sense here you know next thing I'm looking for is alligators or something you know and and or a giraffe maybe so we the Seabees love you guys you made the bunker like this so when it rains it just you know it's we got our own swimming pool here you know oh yeah yeah so at any rate from there there's an incident I want to say but it was kind of it was kind of gross well we need to hear oh wait happened well I had already gone on R&R so I heard about this when the guys were were it so he got the officers head and he got the enlisted head okay you know what that looks like you got the 55-gallon drums with that's a restroom right exactly so we had a kid named Harry smiley he's from New York I'm from Texas so I like to hear these guys talk I've seen it on TV but I've never been around it you know so you're supposed to burn that stuff you know so you pour in get was it desalting kerosene diesel whatever we could get it's probably diesel because of the tanks yeah well Harry instead of getting a match put a thermite grenade oh well all the what didn't burn went downhill and burn down the officers I I was crying I went ain't when he when he said that you know guess what smiley did you know and he's he's a big guy it's you know there's box of rocks and you know I know I was if I see Harry again he you know but so he burned down though so he burned down the officers head and that was probably the funniest thing that you know and I didn't even get to see it so at any rate from Conte and I got my orders went to Quang tree frankly they put me on line watch and then that's where I got bit by a mosquito you know it was half as big as a b-52 you know and they're flying around and they take information' they got tail numbers on them you know yeah and he bit me and I you know I got on the airplane to go to its gonna meet my my parents and my girlfriend there in Hawaii yeah I wanted the seven-day one I didn't want to go to you know wherever so when I got off the airplane something's wrong here don't feel real good yeah so I had a couple of days my parents are there and my mom I started hallucinating and you know my mom just started freaking out you know and so we're up in the hotel and you know the Navy came and you know got the gurney and you know loaded me up and it's like by your June of 68 Oh June it was right during Bobby Kennedy gut was assassinated my wife was at that point my girlfriend yeah she was her airplane to fly to why he had had just hold because you know they were doing his body and you know taking it so yeah that's I'd forgotten that so you know now I'm at Tripler Army Hospital and in the malaria ward and probably lost 50 pounds in a week you know because it's coming out both ends and and they give you that the medication it turns your urine Orange so you know from here down was orange and it was just holy mackerel so you know and I'm in there with these other guys that you know and they're all screwed up as I am you know and so my fianc I arranged to after my mom and dad went back they arranged to stay with some folks that was in their church and so I could get a pass to go stay out on the weekend you know that kind of thing and so after a while it was just trying to get your strength back and I don't know how those guys in World War two fought with with that kind of stuff it's at any rate you know so so where was the hospital you were in it was on Oahu okay here's Schofield Barracks no I don't know I'm not real sure where anything was you know it's just this was my there's downtown Honolulu which you have to go through to get to where she was and and where anything else is I didn't really care all I knew was I was out of the bush but because I didn't take my malaria pill you know how that works so the company now is on notice to everybody you know the corpsman are starting to check and make sure you take you know well they didn't think too much of me after that so so I got to stay I don't know an extra month or something in Honolulu till they said okay you're you don't have the kind that's recurring there's the next airplane you're on it and you went back to Nam I went back to Nam and when I got back discovered our company was now or battalion was now battalion landing team already reserved and so we're out on Princeton and the Dubuque which were two ships one was an old jeep carrier kind of thing yeah they converted it to helicopters and ours I was on the Dubuque had a well deck in there so they could do the Amtrak things and and you could land a couple of helicopters on the on the back of it and so when somebody got in trouble bears echo or golf or whomever and so we we did you know that kind of thing for for a while did you get deployed off the we did one one day we were we got called out and so we're coming up from the bowels of the ship up through the mess deck and out and they were the h-34 remember those old Korean looking things well they were both lifting off and one of them started doing this right back at us you know and he's losing power and and I don't know whether he's gonna come join us in the mess deck or what but he finally got off the the ship and he I thought oh oh those guys are done you know and but it somehow I got control of it and so you know this was the I don't know if this was an omen about this that coming up thing or not but so they came back and and we got on a helicopter and you know you can only get six or seven guys in one of those things so we took off and he our helicopter landed it must have had a sign the smelliest rice paddy in Vietnam is right here please land here you know so the stuffs coming over the you know I'm going I got to jump out into that and oh it stunk would you have your backpack oh yeah it was just everything you know and so you keeping your yeah so you know there's no River to you know wash off with and so it was just oh we smelled oh yeah yeah yeah so you know we were we were doing that sting in soju get when you hit the ground were you immediately in contact no no it wasn't a hot LZ those are very uncool so you know it was just let's make them stink you know and you know the pilots up here he's not you know he's not getting no no he's not getting out a helicopter and and so we jump out and you know and everybody else is landing on dry land and thought how did he manage that you know oh you smell so you know we did that for a while I don't remember exactly what we did but you know we're after that we're back on the ship again and you know Navy chow good good stuff good good food yeah sheets on and it was it was just a really nice thing and we did a practice they took us up just below the DMZ and they practice you know the John Wayne Amtrak's and you know well they don't tell you that you've probably died from monoxide poisoning before you ever get out of the thing you know because everybody's cranked up and and the fumes are not going anywhere they're just staying you know hovering around and so we got in this thing coffin thing and you know here's your Mae West and so they shoot us off the back and we went down when I thought you know what happens when we hit the bottom and we don't go anywhere and I've got this Mae West well just you know you go up here and then you drown so but we finally came on up and you know this whole battalion thing and so we hit the beach and and you know the on toast those recoilless rifle yeah I think we weapon yeah it is until they break down so we're all on the beach you know look look good boys I'm sure they're filming you know guys if you're Marines I know yet photographer what happened was they are these kids out there with these trays and they're selling stuff you know and we're hitting the beach and this is who thought this one up you know so specially the middle yes this will be two mil so you know somebody said the on toast broke down yeah we're going back to the ship okay on the beach I don't know where they broke down yeah they just broke down so we're cancelling this okay I don't know where we were going why we were going we were just going and we look good you know these kids selling stuff cigarettes and candy and you know whatever and I'm going where did you come from so we got back a board ship and you know it's just stupid stuff like that and well now somewhere I I'm thoroughly enjoying your your Vietnam you earned a Silver Star no no time out I did not get a silver star says service medal Oh service medal was service okay no I don't know why I got the medals that I that I did I didn't get a silver starring in a Bronze Star I got a yellow stripe down my back I think women you got the Vietnamese crosses oh well whatever that means you know everybody got that I don't know why I got it I got two of them oh you do yeah I have no idea why I have those so weirdly she had good conduct well that was that that was debatable it depends on who you ask so you know I can laugh about it now it wasn't real funny at the time but it isn't funny at the time um so so when you when you were a month in Tripler and then you had to go back to Vietnam after that month didn't they make you make an extra month did they add them on to your tour or at that point I wasn't asking I just I was back here we are you know and so they when we got off I think this is the right chronology when we got off the ship for good they took us up to the DMZ okay so that was my introduction to there's nobody supposed to be in here this is demilitarized and that's where everybody was so I'm completely out of shape and we're going you know all over the place and when is this what's the time forever it's in the fall September some September October yeah yes something like that did you ever get up there was that or you just down okay I mean I as I said I got up there a couple times because I was trying to get a hop back to my unit and right I'd had to go by way of denying or through by or one of those places but no I never got that far okay well it was when you got up there we've we encountered steps built in the you know these hills where it got wood there and you know they're carrying all their stuff and and you determined that NVA had built them oh yeah well well you can't see it from the air yeah you know it's triple-canopy whatever and and you know you could you could hide a whole division down there and nobody'd see them were you blowing stuff up as you were going through I'm sure we were it was just we were we were just up there you know and I probably the the scared Asst hi ever'one we were told to take this hill you know I don't want the hell you guys can have it just keep it you know so we we start you know filtering up through the hill well there on the reverse slope you know you know it's kind of hard to get a bunch of Marines quiet I it's just does not part of the DNA so we're going up this hill and all of a sudden we hear these mortar tubes and I thought this isn't going to be nice well there was these trees that there were no branches until you got maybe 30 40 feet up there but they had these vines hanging down and had thorns you know and there were just hundreds of them and so we're going through this thing and you're getting cut and you're bleeding and you know and then these mortar rounds start you know just like rain and and it was one of those things where you okay lord I have a deal for you you have a deal for me I have a deal for you and you know the skipper got hit the exact got hit the company Gunny got hit you know the mortars from the mortar rounds and this corpsman behind me I don't know maybe eight five eight meters behind took one right in the chest and and it was one of those things where you could hear his voice you know and it just when when somebody said okay we're gonna we're going to do this again tomorrow but we got too many wounded you know so it was just hamburger you know when I walk past him he'd that was it was really strange but it was one of the things where everybody was just bloody when they came out of there whether you got hit by anything or not because we were you know those thorns were just grabbing you and you know and twisting around you and and you're trying to move and you know so that was probably the scared us you know Khe Sanh was bad enough but this was no place to go and eventually today no somebody did came up the other side and took it so but I'm sure we were you know we just lost a bunch of guys because there was no place to get behind there weren't he logs there or anything so you know we had we we took a lot of casualties that were you think who designed this operation yeah exactly you know and that they didn't ask me permission or anything like that they just said do it so we had the New Jersey fire force that the big ship you know is shooting those Volkswagens over and when those when that thing came over you know it was just like you know and it lands and go so they were going after the other side of the hill they were going after hide I hope so I was just that was I remember we got hella lifted into the dmz from someplace and they the NVA had a forward observer out there somewhere and we got in the tree line in the trees and I'm sure he was thinking they're going to keep going so we just they were lobbing rounds way over us we just stopped right there the Lord died I had another conversation about that time because I figured they were going to do fire and adjust you know we're not getting anybody there let's back it up here but that was one of those that was the day that I felt a hundred years old you know what that feels like 19 or 20 and I feel a hundred you know it was the weird experience but I have to ask me what are you thinking about after I got home I'd be sitting in the living room and you know at that time I had a daughter that was about 2 years old she's a lot older now she was running around and I was just staring past her through her my mother would say what are you thinking about not nothing and I didn't won't tell her what I was thinking about didn't want to talk about it you know just your blame a circuit breaker goes off in your brain yeah there's lots of things that change and then you can grow old man yeah really I just felt old I don't know how to explain it but unless you've been there so any oh no I got it I left country as an e3 yeah fortunately we our motor squad really didn't lose anybody I don't know why we certainly tried hard enough but but the platoon did right yeah we were attached 2nd platoon I think and you know we're just you know how it works and so we ended up at Danang honor on this huge division size operation called Meade River and they had I don't know most Marines I ever saw in my life I'm sure there was some army guys around there too but we were cordoning off this area around Danang because there was supposed to be a division of NVA in there fine I don't really care to take your position you can have it if you want but longest convoy I was ever on it went for miles you know nothing but six by snows big trucks and I remember going through this village and sure no I really done with here right I mean we could hear the you know when those F fours would take off so but I don't remember what direction it was pardon me no quaint tree was north dong-ha and crying tree were north i thought it well then I've got the wrong idea was yeah it was down around Danang somewhere and you know there's a px up there and all that okay all right I don't remember I really don't there was a bunch of villages there and yeah although I wouldn't have known Dogpatch if I you know we to run into it but so what happened though well we were going and and behind us I heard this explosion and this big six buys going you know he just picked it up and threw it off in a rice paddy you know and landed on two guys so I thought we just went over that you know there's a command detonated yeah bomb or whatever and so well you just keep going you know let's let me call my mom she would want to hear about this you know so we stopped wherever it was we stopped and you know the company's around and their hooches and stuff well my mortar squad got putting up pagoda that's fine it's got a roof over it you know if it rains I like this you know well one day there's a helicopter lands out on a road and this one star general gets out and he's walking right toward us you know you men aren't doing anything this pagoda are you no sir well you wouldn't want the Vietnamese to mess up any of our churches would you I said no sir and you know we're taking good care of this we're just sleeping here you know we got in his helicopter and flew off and I thought okay this makes a lot of sense you know you out wasting gas or what are you doing you know and it was just so know what he was doing you know he might have done something else but yeah okay we're not we're not putting det cord around the pagoda and blowing it up we're just we're just out of the rain so so you know you've got the grunts out in front of us and they're running patrols and we're doing you know protecting them and we had to fire a round at night well probably the Army has flashlights and stuff like that it's raining and I got a match you know so we have to put the poncho over the you know so you can check the bubbles and make sure there we did that we actually had flashlights they just weren't allowed to use them on the fire on the fire night where they had the 105's and and the mortars they weren't allowed to use flashlights at night so I'd see him everyone's wild with this okay well I don't feel so bad then so so it's raining and you know we got a fire mission and you know the guys so that was probably my best fire mission and you know I put it right where they wanted it and we were you know so there was one time down there around Danang where we had heard that there was an NVA coming toward us we got the company out in the platoons and there's big rice paddy between us and and all of a sudden this guys on our paths where the where our mortar to be said well he's got orders for R&R - Danang you know from his outfit and so so one of the one of the guys a new guy in our in our mortar squad shoots him and the guy jumps over and a rice paddy you know and and it's a big big rice paddy Dyke here you know so you've got a you got to do this - grenade over there and so so the waters going up like we're having a ball you know this guy's not gonna live through it or we're gonna use a lot of grenades here tonight you know and so there's an NVA on dog this is an NVA on shore leave and and he did he bump it down the trail and you know he just so and they caught him you know and brought him over and you two thought we had we all had won the Congressional you know we'd all you know we've got a prisoner big deal you know so there were times when there was some little NVA over in a tree line about 500 meters away he's cranking off a few rounds just here and there you know just to kind of keep you five million dollars of ordinates 20 minutes later right right right well we either got him and you know his brother came along so 10 million dollars of coordinates Motorola you know crack okay whatever you know well let's why should you shoot over a bunch more you know and so it was at that time I just quit saying why are we doing this is it you know you know the three monkeys you know here know it they're they're leading this thing and so we they took us out in the helicopters and we flew around and there was a little Vietnamese out hoenn you know well he drops his ho and he picks up his a K and he you know about the time we've banked over this way in those eight thirty four and I was I was on the the bulkhead the side looking right down at him yeah you know and he obviously got me in his sights I just you know and then the you know the crew chief you know get his machine gun and I thought oh man so we went back and we played marine corps for a little while longer and they we got we got into a cha hole I don't know there's yours or or Navy's or what have you and they had ice cream not like ice cream I really like ice cream they all say had a lot of beer you know sounds like an army yeah because we didn't have it it's time we were there you know and the base camp we got beer yeah you know we never did so the company got drunk okay I didn't get drunk because I do it sure as the world somebody's gonna say move out we're and we're around Danang someplace yeah I'm sure I'm messing up this chronology but you know being around sober Marines is bad enough being around drunk Marines who are going through this village at night and everybody you know and may you know laughing and so forth and I thought we're just this this is nuts this is just nuts who thought this up you know well I'm only a Lance Corporal but I can see this is stupid so we ended up getting where we were supposed to I have no idea how because I'm somewhere in the middle of this you know disaster and okay alright I give up I'll just do whatever you want me to do and then I'm gonna get home because I'm on my short short short timer calendar and so we did we got around somewhere in this process we're around the Korean Marines did you ever we were around any rock rink yeah we worked with him down my first base camp was the base game called Zeon which is north of Saigon about 50 click something like that and in the compound with us was a rock compound and they were rock Marines and army both in the same time ah okay well I was yeah yeah well you know while we're doing whatever we're doing these these Rock Marines you'd see one of them with a backpack full of bricks and he's walking you know and then Tim is later it comes another guy down you know now we're going what do you guys yeah probably you know so we we went to their fort whatever it was and they got claymores all oh yeah I mean you don't want to attack a rock compound so I'm getting ready to getting close to rotating out and they had we had brand-new rain suits I'm rotating out and we now get brand new rain suit so one of these Rock Marines says he'll trade me you know well hey I'm getting out of here I'm used to being soaked anyway so so I traded him he gave me a rock marine utility jacket fatigues and I thought wow this is it's it's it's in Korean but it's still the you know that was that was really it was kind of neat you know exchange and then there they're cooking their kimchi which is holy mackerel put that stuff out you know it's only it's only edible when it's fermented yeah yeah well it was just no I don't you know I'll stick with sea rations which I hope I never have to eat again in my whole life so so we I guess the last the last hurrah when I was you know it's a week to go something like that we got online and we're moving into this a lot of bamboo and you know mounds of stuff and we got in there and we noticed these stairs going down you know well you're in the DMZ no no no this is today we're still on mede River and they've got bunkers down there and you know you guys can have it if you want and then they opened up that was probably the worst ambush I'd ever walked into because it was just I mean there were stuff coming from and I never saw where they were coming from you know it was just out there in front of us somewhere and that was that was difficult you know and and then all of a sudden it stopped and I'm still alive you know so you know shoot at it shoot it what you know I just they're out there but I don't know where it is and and so from then on we we got a call from one of the platoons that they'd gotten a VC prisoner down there so the skipper lieutenant st. John got two radio operators in me skipper I'm going home in three days could we do we find somebody else so I'm the third man in this four-man patrol and we're walking along these rice paddies and there's no water in them but we're out in the open and I'm thinking well does he die here now or you know so we you know got to the tree line and took a left and there was a little rise and there's old rusty barbed wire and so the skipper going down the other side of it got tangled up in it and the radio operator in front of me got up there and he stepped on a mind and so it got the skipper in the back and blew him up in the air and I'm thinking where's the next round coming I'm not used to booby traps you know so I immediately stuck my muzzle in the you know getting down I've got dirt mud grass in my muzzle I got three days left and I'm going what's wrong with this picture you know well I forgot about the radio operator behind me and he's calling in and saying okay here's here's what we got now ran through this rice paddy and I don't kill the skipper no matey Moishe was dead but no he died back in the States I don't know whether there was from that I don't know what happened to the radio operator but well it probably did I didn't see what happened to him after that because I'm waiting for the next round to come in and I just like I said I'd forgotten about him and by the time I got back to the you know I just ran through the rice paddy and got there and they sell we already know about that oh so they you know they did what they did with with the wounded and so we had you know a puff that c-47 we had them over us all night and got a gun mm-hmm and but you know they're they're dropping out those illumination flares well there's a there's a big cartridge on there that when it goes that cartridge goes folk well he's flying over us all night long and I'm thinking well I'm gonna get impaled with a with what he's French yeah cuz you can hear him going thunk don't don't you knowing and oh man so next day is my day out you know so there's bullying bamboo all over the place and I was not where I should have been yeah waiting for a helicopter all day long well I'm gonna go over and see so-and-so yeah well that wasn't a good idea cuz lieutenant Louie was looking for me and he when he found me he was not too happy and he said get your gear and get out of here so I got on the helicopter and you know the first thing you look for is all that spent brass you know well this is one of the milk runs they're just flying guys out of the bush and get them to you know taking a mail or whatever and you know the crew chief is yeah the crew chief is bored to tears and I was it was like coming out of Khe Sanh it was oh I'm done then landed me at the Naval Air Station yeah in San Diego no no naval there's the Naval Hospital that's what it was yeah now what do I do yeah you know he took off and well I better find company area so I found the company area went to a supply you know turned in all my gear and now I'm weaponless you know mmm so we went to the e/m Club and there's this curve in selling large family bibles to the guys if they'll you know you're good of you everything holy mackerel it was just weird to come out of the bush like that and you're its it over that's it's surreal yeah it was definition of surreal I think it was and then it was you know so how did you get home you went home on a commercial airliner yeah I'm sure I did continental or something yeah it was out of Danang and then all of a sudden I'm never coming back to this hole in a wall again and we landed at Camp Hansen again on Okinawa and our old company Gunny was the guy who puts people on on on airplanes and so buddy of mine and I asked if we could stay there another week so we could get home at Christmas and have a little more time and the day I left was snowing and honest so I got home and I just I didn't know what it was like I was laying the bag where I was placing no we landed el Toro it's not there anymore but you know I didn't have any protesters throwing stuff at me and you know we got on the bus to go to LAX and you know on to home and nobody bothered your uniform no I didn't have any Civic so yeah we didn't have cities we weren't allowed later the army made people take civvies so they didn't want to flying when they started all the protesting stuff and AH in 69 and 70 no that would have that would have required we were preparation yeah so we didn't do that we are not into preparation we're in home been wired when I came home in 68 you didn't have a choice you were supposed to change fatigue or what you would call utilities out of the utilities into a green uniform or a khaki inform depend on what time of year was yeah so but you guys you you were just flying what your marine greens that's all that's all anybody I knew had you know you could I guess yeah I guess we could have gone into a city or something and gotten but that didn't they weren't really letting us off the bass when they got real touchy about it because of the protests right right I know the guys that came or I heard the guys came in from San Francisco really got it bad yeah that's where I came in is that right did you get stuff thrown on you and some guy tried to throw paint not he was throwing it there was seven of us coming down the ramp they brought us over buses from McGuire and a guy threw paint but it I don't know he was throwing it at me was more than any one of the right the guy behind me damn near killed the guy that was throwing the paint then three of us to pulling off on you know well you know I landed at Amon Carter field which is no longer there anymore and in Dallas Fort Worth area and I was going went home to Texas mm-hm and what did you stay at Marinko after that or yes I had another two years to do yeah you know but by that time they weren't sendin you know I was I got signed to alpha 1st battalion 28th Marines and then to H and s 3 and 33 where which they're at Camp Pendleton it came fell over at Camp Hilton and I remember one machine gunner getting a ticket back you're getting a ticket for his first time but nobody was they just weren't letting us go back so not that I really wanted to go back but way abandon caisson oh yeah yeah the Sun was the Westmoreland's theory according what I've read was that the Tet Offensive was just a diversion so that they could invade case on which I don't know lately which had nothing to do with what they were doing so he completely misread the Intel so what what was your job do you continue to be a mortar guy with the first time well I was I was a no.3 1103 41 mortars but oh three eleven and so I I got put in alpha 128 and you know we're just doing marching you know close order drill and going to the NCO school and and all that and you know we we did a a week out on the Iwo Jima another one of those Jeep carrier things we're gonna go in and you know hella left in we're gonna play Marines and all that stuff and and you know just then we did cold weather training up at Fallon Nevada that was I don't know who thought that up but you know we had we had the boots that you know the protect your feet of course we had to carry him we weren't allowed to use them so we just got those regular old leather boots and not enough socks and so most of the guys that were with you were they Vietnam vets at that point yeah everybody was the I don't care anymore typical you know I've been over there I've seen the elephant and you know and I just really don't care you know I'm not going to do something stupid to get court-martialed but I'm just going to do the bare minimums because all I want to do is get out of this thing and and it just that's what you did you did your for years then got out well actually I got out I didn't quite do three years because they were if you had a radio mos you're getting 18 month out Oh threes we're getting just about the same so naturally the week before I got out we had an IG you know junk on the bunk all your gear on the bunk and guys I'm not into this anymore and it was just I don't want to do stateside Marine Corps anymore it's just that's not me so yeah would you do when you got out of the Marine Corps what I do well I got a job at Safeway you know I was thoroughly trained to kill people and break things but wasn't trained for anything else yeah I'm right out of high school I'm not you know so you know out of big demand for right I can shoot you at 400 meters how's that you know but you know and then I got after I was making 265 an hour holy mackerel so I got a job over at General Dynamics in there non-destructive testing field and I got one of the highest scores in the class I'm thinking wait a minute you you've got somebody else mixed up with me this is not me I'm just a dumb grunt and I began to realize I had that capacity to to study and because I was motivated now and I got a family and all that and married I was married actually I forgot to tell you I got married on R&R and I'm still married the same lady that which is you know she's being put up for sainthood here very shortly so you know and I started having problems I don't know what you had but you know but they didn't have a title for it and you know I wasn't hanging around other combat veterans or anything and so you know come home and stare at the ceiling you know well I want to talk to you now I don't I don't do that right now you know so we were we were having issues and then I decided I wanted to go to school up in Tulsa Oklahoma and for air Pet airframe and powerplant miss Martin's well the worst thing in the world would be to fly on an airplane I worked on you know that would be really stupid even after I went that's just not my thing and my wife and I were having some some real issues that was the problem it wasn't her and I know the feeling yeah so we had gotten into martial art you know that control issue and we were we were really having a lot of issues and one of the guys that worked where my wife worked said you need to come to church with me you know and so she said let me call this pastor over here and so he came and and we both became Christians about that time I needed something I was I was pretty much under the whole you know and I didn't know what to expect this was 1972 in the summer things were just we had separated again home about four years ago about four years and that took me it took me four years to completely destroy things you know and figure it out I'm over my head here and so doing that and okay what do I do I'm trained as a killer you know I can kill you with a mortar tube or you know you know the K bar and but swinging my teeth and but that doesn't really get you anywhere so at that point we decided we we met some folks that were on staff with Campus Crusade okay and Dave Hannah was the athletes in action part of that he was over that and they were looking for anything if you were a champion tiddlywinks player they'd get you on there you know and you'd go around and do your thing and so I started this karate demonstration team and and we were also working with high school and college coaches you know and that just the the karate thing just kind of went away you know was just fine with me and then I got a sign to Cincinnati and we had we had a edict from on high just under bill bright who was running the thing and you got to raise all your support well that didn't work out so I ended up in college you know a little Bible College in Southern California and that's when I realized I graduated very high in my class and it was like a hundred and thirty hundred it wasn't a big school but I just did well under that kind of pressure and so we got out graduated went back to Texas started a little church and then Vietnam started rearing its ugly head and I resigned you know I was just I was just really struggling and so I got a job as a janitor okay at a Christian school church and that's where my kids went and so my wife was secretary so I'm around my kids and it didn't matter to me well it so happened the guy was working with was also a case on veteran you know and so we just hit it off great and I'm still trying to figure okay what I do next coach you know so my immediate boss and her immediate boss directed me to Covenant Seminary in st. Louis okay so we took off for st. Louis I did the graduate thing and went to went up to South Dakota they they gave me a call to that church it was just ornery enough that after about three years I was ready to kill everybody in there you know and this isn't what's wrong with this picture you know so I was I ended up at the VA you know who are you I I don't know let me check my wallet here I didn't know who all was and through that process they said you've got PTSD I do and you said what does that mean all I know was going through that stuff it's like they're trying to make sure you don't get compensation and you're trying to go I'm just trying to hold my head on here you know and so I resigned the church and went back to st. Louis I like st. Louis and you know they're trying to still get the medication just right and that was about that was about a ten-year project because not all the doctors are on the same page with everybody else and so through that process you know I told the Lord okay don't call me I'll call you okay this so far it hasn't really worked out real well and you know but now I'm medicated you know so so I ended up meeting a guy named van lease and he was a covenant Seminary graduate and Van is kind of just shy of brilliant you know and then there's me you know he was a band NERD I was the jock in high school and we just hit it off yeah you know and so he was teaching over in Ukraine and so after about a year in this church I said could I go over and teach a class you know I said let me talk to the elders so next thing I know I'm in done yet Ukraine about 2003 I'm teaching and I'm really having a great time and I'm enjoying the students man not like this right so I've been going to Ukraine for since 2003 and now I'm teaching in Haiti and in India Bible studies yeah I got my PhD in 2000 2016 I wrote I wrote my thesis on PTSD yeah so and in a reformed position on that and so just now I gotta have a novel and I'm working on shortening my thesis so that I can take that material and put it in the book as well I love to read it so at any rate I've learned an awful lot about PTSD and but the way I do things is completely different than what the VA does so because I didn't go through the let's take counseling degree and that kind of thing I was just doing a theology thing and so I have different perspective of all that whatever works yep so you are still doing that you're still on your now in Haiti well right may the 5th through the 12th I've got to go ordained one of our students and baptize some folks and do that and teach for about a week and then I'm going to either Haiti or Grenada the next month and then in tail end of August I'll be in India again so I don't know after that kids are all grown now yeah they're they're grown and you and the wife survived we did we did as a matter of fact we are probably doing better than we've ever done you know once when I got my degree Vietnam stopped hurting it just it was because you'd ask me how I was doing and I'm kind of going well I'm here you know I'm maybe 15 minutes from now I you know but when people in 2016 when they'd asked me I said I'm doing I'm doing pretty good you know and I realized I've moved on from that it doesn't hurt anymore you know it's you know I could talk about it now you make fun of it and and that kind of thing but it's what's what's manifesting itself is between my wife and me we are working together better you know the word love what the heck does that mean I know what it means to love a fellow soldier but you know I love you dear what does that mean you know and all of a sudden I'm I'm really beginning to experience that and the emotions are kind of being released you know to where you I mean what I say before it was just I'm supposed to say it here in the script and then I say it over here you know but it's it's just been looking out the back stuff you block out the good stuff oh yeah that's why I had to learn to let it let it out let it go because if I doesn't let it go I'm but I'm not the good stuffs not getting in either so well that that's good news it sounds like you've come to a good place looking back on Vietnam now that you've got this 50-year perspective to look on it what what are your feelings today about the war and about Vietnam in general just just about the whole Vietnam War well I for me it's hard to look at it apart from a theological perspective Vietnam was going to be fought ok it was fought it's it's hard when LBJ says I'm not running again you know like I'm out of here boys well if he's not gonna hang around you know I think I think the Korean War veterans get short shrift because nobody even knows we were in war there you know and to know how how hard those guys fought in those brutally cold conditions yeah you know you've got the World War two veteran generation I'm getting to your answer but they had to win they just had to win but when you have these proxy war kind of things regional and it's not you're not gonna let it get it where I hate or win anything the guys that stay there and hang in there you know you're in charge of guys and when they when they get killed it's that just take a part of me too but you still keep doing it I I don't know why we aren't the greatest generation as well we did the best we could with what we were given the Congress was not gonna let us win because that wasn't the goal you know so you know my hats off to anybody that stuck that out and I understand why when you getting toward 1970 the guys are going I'm not going out on patrol anymore at least I heard that's what they were what they were doing it funny I heard that but I've yet to ever meet anybody well maybe that's personally experienced yeah so I wonder sometimes if there might have been some isolated units of where that I don't know jumped on I don't know what happened to be yeah one time did my troops ever right refused to do their job honorably ever yeah well I want to I want to thank you very much for being here today and for allowing us to share your Vietnam experience been very candid very direct I always think that there's both the bad news and there's also some humor it's hard explain that to people but I think you did it better than I've ever seen it I want to thank you if there's anything else you'd like to tell us before we shut down today I have to be honest and tell you just on a personal standpoint I've thoroughly enjoyed your interview today well you know um going through all that stuff you know and you come home and I can honestly say now I thank the Lord for tape for putting me in Vietnam not just because you have to grow up but because it it put me in a place to where I had to look up you know you can get very self-sufficient I'm you know if I have some challenge some ammo and my weapons clean I'm good you know but this was so far over my head that when Christ found me underneath the whole life has just gotten better and better it didn't mean that the Vietnam went away because I became a Christian but it did mean that I've got I have hope you know not just for this life but the but the next one my marriage is better than it's ever been I mean it's like we're really starting to get to know each other because all the masks are off you know she knows what I'm like when I'm you know and we've worked it out and she prays for me when I'm but I don't have that stuff much anymore so I wouldn't trade a second of the the year I was there or the fifty years afterwards it was all part of making me who I am so that's you know I thank you for doing what you did you know taking idiots like me and turning them into something you know we're just all trying that one like I was a bit of an idiot myself back in those days well I want to thank you again and it is now 12:37 dream I kept waiting you're gonna you're going to turn this off any minute now we're gonna of all I'm probably gonna run out of tape I think that's another issue but I want to thank you again on behalf of the Atlanta History Center in the Library of Congress I want to let you know that this will be transcribed at the the tape itself is going to go to the Library of Congress Wow so and it will also be on file here at the History Center so that your children grandchildren your wife your great-grandchildren are going to be able to access this so I'm very much and at this point April 13 2018 at 12:37 the interview is included and thank you wow thank you no service welcome home sure thank you

Channel: Atlanta History Center

Views: 21,909

Rating: 4.5731225 out of 5

Keywords: Veteran (Profession), Atlanta History Center (Museum), Library of Congress Veterans History Project

Id: Z6htq8x1LrI

Length: 120min 34sec (7234 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 01 2020