Jesus the Game Changer Season One - John Anderson Extended Interview

[Music] job most people can remember where they were when the twin towers went down in New York you have a pretty unique story where were you what were you doing at that time I was in Canberra dealing with the failure of an set the second Australian airline and a refugee crisis and acting prime minister at the time because John Howard was in Washington at that very time so I'll remember it very well so what do they do with you what did you do such counterterrorism arrangements as the country had ready were tripped put into place all sorts of sites and people around the place were secured to use the jargon as best we could manage Parliament House was cordoned off I had to work from my motel room because there was a real fear that it might have been the first of a series of rolling attacks and bombings and suicide missions around the world and of course none of us really knew just what it all might have meant how did you feel like how did you deal with that because there's a lot of pressure I suppose the answer is really that at that moment I think perhaps more than any other moment in my life I realized that there was no use grappling with my own feelings and concerns I was on the bridge no option to jump overboard and say I wish I was back on the farm there was a job that had to be done I remember and I've been quite open about this praying for strength and for guidance and having an overwhelming sense being able to put self-interest aside in order that I might do to the very greatest of my ability what needed to be done because in a way the recurring nightmare that time was with all of us information coming from all of our agencies colleagues here and internationally what if there's a bit of critical information that I somehow am responsible for missing and people died as a result and I have to say I assume that the very least there would be economic chaos chaos resulting possibly military chaos and that it would be probably the end of my political career and possibly even the government's but they were not things that you could concentrate on the time there was a job to be done and I believed very strongly then as I do now that in those circumstances the right thing to do is to be compared to bend your knee before the Almighty seek guidance seek counsel and in the end whilst I think perhaps that moment might have been the end of post-modernism and there was the re-emergence of real evil it's engaged us I think even with the real resistance from the progressives in a debate about mega narratives again hmm I also think we may look back on it and say it really was a very serious moment for Western culture and civilization it exposed an awful lot of cracks and they've only widened in many ways since going back you spend a lot of time in politics many many years in politics what what drew you into politics what was your motivation to get into politics well it's a good question really because I was a reluctant starter and wouldn't have seen myself as somebody who had a natural feel for it apart from the fact that I've always been fascinated by the cut and thrust of debate exchange over ideas current affairs those things certainly interest me and I do I do love people and like to try and have a positive impact on other people's lives but the real answer I suppose is the catalyst was being asked to run and then finding to my great surprise that there was some support from people that I really respected he said look you know you've got to have a go at this service matters and it's interesting that that was the approach so for you it was about service yeah well it has to be for me you know I think philosophically if you say it's about self you find yourself right at the very point where I think our culture is crumbling and we're in a sense I to be countercultural I'm afraid I think our society was built by giants we stand on their shoulders and the best of them have been men who and women who have not been consumed by pride who have not borne bought into the modern line that it's all about you it's interesting really that we live in a culture where from very early age on our children and encouraged to believe they can have it all because it's about them you see in the advertising industry buy this product you deserve it look after the most important person in the world you do you know the amazing thing about that is that when voters see politicians behaving like that in other words living out the very value system that we tend to promote to our children as being the right one they're repulsed by it I actually understand at that point now wait a minute we actually think service should be about leader leadership should be about service Jon give me a bit of a picture about what you think is is good political leadership you just talked about service and serving and you've worked with a number of numbers of different leaders what did you see that was important in leadership you know leadership really I suppose involves having a vision where you want to go where you think things need to be taken being able to articulated to others so they understand what the vision is and then having about you one way or another the qualities that will get others to work with you to achieve that vision but that vision might be for good or for ill that's the problem and we can we can think of an Adolphe Hitler he had a horrific vision he was certainly able to articulate enough of it though to be able to take people with him so that they were prepared to try and make that vision a reality and so you know the antithesis of that of course is a is a traditional Christian model of leadership you know where the founder of Christianity was prepared to lay down his life for others even if they weren't his friends and so I've seen you know people on various spots along that continuum but the ones that I've admired most there are several things I think I would note about them why is they know that they stand on the shoulders of giants big men and women who have gone before them and so a wise man in that context will understand that if you read widely if you're a student of history you can actually bring the wisdom and the insights and the successes and the failures of men and women who have gone before us to the table for today and if you know we live in an age when everyone's looking for the leadership and who's going to lead us to a better place and everything looks uncertain and there's enormous depression and anxiety and disillusionment amongst young people about democracy itself I would argue that one of the great problems is we don't know where we are because we don't know where we've come from and if you don't know where you've come from and where you've got to it's very hard to know where you might go to on the terrible risk is of course that you'll fall victim to the old adage that those who don't know history are destined to repeat it John do you believe the teaching of Jesus and the Christian Church is that influenced Western democracies massively foundationally you know the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences has Jonathan Sacks from the House of Lords Chief Rabbi of England has pointed out they established that in fact Christianity really lay at the heart of the rise of Western civilization isn't it amazing that you know a communist regime in China can come to that conclusion when in the West we now have a whole lot of trite voices running around the place really often not having a vague idea of you know what they're talking about proclaiming that Christianity has been a negative force and held us back in reality of course the radical heart of Christianity where it crosses over into the public square realm is the extraordinary idea that every individual has Worth and dignity that the poor the weak the oppressed those of a different skin color whatever it doesn't matter you know the King must respect the peasant just as the peasant has to respect the king that's radical it lies at the heart of the idea of the rule of of the vote as one American put it we're so good we had to give ourselves the vote was so bad we had to give ourselves about reflecting our dual nationality created in the dignity of God flawed by our own selfishness and our own desire to do things our own way how do we balance the two out the Western genius has been defined that in democracy and in the vote but you can go much further than that our Western social conscience I would argue derives from the Christian movement to free the slaves we rightly regard slavery as a borrowed today but at the time that Australia was settled which isn't very long ago in the scheme of human affairs the American academic Hoth's child argues that three quarters of the world's population where either serfs or slaves that's staggering to us you know they had no economic or political or personal freedom the whole idea of slavery though was tackled by the Christians and that great movement and the revival times when there were many many Christians in public life and and the greatest human rights movement of all times evolved so it's been massively influenced and an extraordinary amount of what we now take for granted in terms of the way we view others the way we think that the less fortunate and so forth have to be looked after in settles they have their genesis in the unique idea that derives from the Bible that we should treat our neighbor as ourselves we're out of what other culture what are the Creed has taken it fought in the way that the Christian West did not saying the Christian West perfect far from it it's had some appalling moments of terrible slip-ups but on balance what sort of society to most people in the world want to live in today it's the Western capitalist democracies they either want to move there or they want a model like that in their own only what an irony that you know we live in an age when our own academics our own intellectual our own intelligence ears those who dominate the debate in the public square want to rubbish and demolish and interview and and encourage us to self loathe our own achievements and that which we don't understand that's which we pervert that which we distort we're in danger of destroying our children and our grandchildren will not thank us for it actually want to go back to the leadership question John you were the the kind of peak of Australian politics which has a lot of power a lot of prestige and how did you stay grounded in that period of time how'd you stay a grounded person had that not get go to your head or or your personality what's kind of you to assume that it didn't I think philosophically I had a deep commitment to the view that I have no special standing before God that other human beings don't have you know in one sense you see if I'm fortunate enough to have some talents or gifts or whatever that equipped me for that role that's not to my credit it's to be used wisely for others if there are others who don't have those abilities I have no grounds for despising them or condemning them or for looking down on them better a lot of practical lessons that you learn as well going through life I remember working there's a mechanic's laborer when I was a university student and realizing that one of their young fellows that I was assigned to work with by the boss if he'd had my educational opportunities in life he'd have been a brain surgeon it was a humbling experience and I never forgot it stood me in good stead you know in the words of a pretty silly little song I once heard be kind a little guy on your way up or you'll meet him on your way down so there was that kind of perspective in in working with that guy who was a mechanic who you thought the guy's incredibly intelligent I just realized that he had talents and skills latent that hadn't been drawn out that you know put into perspective I suppose the opportunities that I had had and made me realize that I'd been fortunate but I couldn't take credit for it did you see humility and the concept or the virtue of humility much in just politics in general and leadership in general well I think what I would say is that the leaders that I knew and admired most knew at least the importance of keeping hubris in check they understood it was important the degree to which they succeeded in that well you know I don't know I think all men grapple with pride to some extent some are better at hiding it than others but it does lie at the heart of nearly every human problem that I can think of if not every one of them and I think it was Lewis who said the problem with pride is that prevents us from looking up to an exterior reference point an external reference point or God and it makes us look down on other people so we don't see them as fully worthy human beings you know on our own level and you know there's an awful lot of the world's ills that can be traced I think to the problem of pride so philosophically I've always had a view that you know it's something you want to try and work on the problem with it is that the minute you think you're making progress you know you're not I want to go to that that whole question of church and state and you know there's a lot of talk about separation of church and state there's somebody that was involved in politics but with a faith background what do you think that means separation of church and state I think it means that the institutions if I can go that way should be separate you know I don't think the church should ever have temporal power that's not the so that individuals from the church shouldn't have an opportunity to participate in the public square in fact I'm absolutely 100% convinced that our society would have been infinitely the poorer because these are not our new debates William Wilberforce who really headed up the greatest human rights movement of all times it was subject to people like Lord Melbourne scoffing you know things have come to a pretty pass when religions allowed into the public debate well imagine how much poorer we would have been if it hadn't been the anti-slavery movement if we hadn't been the attempt to force the British East India Company highly successful attempt to force under behave in India and to start to educate people set up schools and teach them how to run a country and oppose evils like the burning of widows that same movement was responsible for a great deal of political reform and for education of the poor in Great Britain and it was all put forward by people who were saying I'm not operating out of philosophy or out of intended you know intellectual commitments to ideas we're doing it out of Christian faith so the institutional separation what how do you see that working so that there's a kind of a wall between the to look in the sense that I don't believe it's appropriate for there to be such things as state churches or for churches to have positions reserved for them in politics that alone for churches to run societies I actually believe that the mission of the true churches is higher anyway the founder of Christianity himself has stood politics you know he made it very plain that he was not going to live by the sword and in fact one of the tests I think of true Christian behavior is that violence is never used to defend Jesus Christ or the Christian faith ever it may be used to oppose evil that's a different thing the case for legitimate and what was quaintly called once I think holy wars although they've been abused as well but you know something seriously wrong if somebody is exercising violence in the name of Jesus Christ in defense of the faith I believe in a sense you see that civilizations come and civilizations go they rise they fall that eternal truths remain forever what where you've kind of touched on this a little bit but in in the teaching of Jesus we're in the teaching of Jesus in the Bible and and those things that some people say look at that too religious that should be outside of politics where are the places that you've seen it where it steps into politics in a really positive sense and has a deeply influential action into the into the political realm well in history they're everywhere whether it was the the whole anti-slavery movement the really serious engagement in international evils like the burning of widows right across the Indian subcontinent whether it was picking up the idea of educating the poor I mean it was Christians who insisted to the Scottish Parliament as early as 1695 that all children house should have an education it was Christians who set up the schools that the state's eventually governments eventually took over so that's history but even today just to draw one of those out I remember back and after I'd stepped down as Deputy PM it was the Christians who were agitating that we take seriously again the horrific issue of slavery that hasn't been killed off we thought it had but as we now know there's somewhere between 20 and 30 million in slavery much of its sex slavery around the world that is horrendous now as a proportion of the global population it's a fraction of what it was once because of the work that Christians have done but we haven't killed it off completely and so you find Christians at the forefront of that movement again there are others who are not Christian just as there were others drawn into it in the 17th and 18th century but you know much of that work is being spearheaded again by people of faith we see the kind of really positive side of of democracy and I think Western democracies is a very has a very positive way of influencing life across across the world what do you think needs to be in a community for democracy to stand as a robust positive democracy ah humility the humility that says my neighbor does matter and I should treat them as I would choose to be treated the idea that we can all be you know Kings under ourselves we can all have complete freedom to behave apps as we choose that's not freedom that's the law of the jungle and when that sense of responsibility to others into community breaks down and involved in that of course is the willingness to seek to be honest and true we all fail but when that concept goes and I have to say in a society like ours I'm not quite sure where it's going to come from when so few people are going to church regularly and being reminded that they're responsible to a higher authority and to their neighbors I'm not quite sure in that sort of society in the future in the West just where we're going to find the wellspring of commonality of commitment to decency into our society into our neighbor that I think democracy is absolutely dependent upon and the American forefathers for example they got at big time they made it plain that they understood that the American democratic experiment would last only so long as people were genuinely civically minded so often the day when people talk about involvement in politics they essentially mean destructive protesting involvement and you could never do it of course and I wouldn't want to be understood to be trying to restrict people's freedoms but I reckon there would be handy if we tried to set up a a little sort of agreement in our society if you want to go and protest something earn the right by pointing to something you've done that was positive for others first so often we now confuse Democratic involvement and activism they're different that's such an interesting concept that their democracy giving us freedom helps us kind of grow as a site Society gives us some lots of opportunities but for that to be created we actually have to take a step back and not demand what we want for ourselves all of the time well it must see if my freedoms are bought at the expense of your freedoms sooner or later we're going to end up in conflict and one's going to win and by definition someone's going to lose we have to have a sense of commitment others a sense of responsibility or others particularly to the weak and the poor because it's our essential instinct to be selfish and perhaps it's that that Christianity brings it so unique an explanation of frankly our problem which is our selfishness and if you like the exhortation and I would argue the means to overcome it and to put it to one side recognising the selflessness of a Christ who died on the cross in order that he might be reconciled even to his enemies that's a very high high bar but we live in a culture where even the concepts not understood we don't even talk about it say you see in it we're rapidly getting to a point where people are so biblically illiterate and so historically illiterate that they can't understand their own culture and we're having to rely on people like the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences reporting to the atheists in Beijing to understand the origins of our own society that's extraordinary and I would argue it's very dangerous and if I would have a plea to make to people I would say to them don't be mockers go out and actually make sure you really do understand where your freedoms came from and what's required to keep them John we just wanted to kind of explore a bit of your own life because you know people look at you and you're you've had a good life you've got a great family and a wonderful farm wonderful a political career but it hasn't always been particularly easy what were the hardest points for you and how did faith influence those what were the times where you kind of questioned faith questioned life questions your future well I'm no stranger to tragedy my mother died of cancer when I was very young undiagnosed I was only three my sister was killed in a supporting accident when I was a teenager and so forth and I don't like dwelling on those things indeed the journalist once said that I'd dwelt on them that was nonsense it wasn't known about until I'd been in Parliament for a long time and then a newspaper chose to reveal something of my life story but they do shape you there's no doubt about that I think when my sister was killed and I've know I've actually met and talked with other kids who have been in a similar situation where you know there's been a horrendous accident and you felt a degree of responsibility for it as a teenager your childhood ends and you've got to ask the big questions and I remember thinking well I can become black and despairing about of all of this or I can try and believe that in the midst of all of this someone's in control and has an in game to play it's a hard choice I can understand why people grapple with it I can't understand that but I for me couldn't live with the black hand so that it was all purposeless thus it was all an accident it was all meaninglessness in other words that particularly coupled with my sort of schoolboy understanding of existentialism you know was too dark a world for me to want to live in some people would say that that tragedy means that they decide that there isn't a god yes because tragedy happened you're saying almost the opposite that in the midst of the darkness that pushed you to a point of belief and faith yes it did because the darkness is so dark if it really is morning meaningless if it really is pointless so for me it took me back to ask those hard questions I think like most people I believe there was a God so the question was what God why are you doing this rather than you can't be there I don't think that answer for me stacks up so then God why do you do this will you come up then against the problem of a fallen world they big concept I can understand why people grapple with them I don't want to take them lightly I just want to say I can't go down the dark road of there being no answer that no point that it's all just empty despair I have to believe that they will in the end be justice and there will be mercy that it all makes sense and that things will be put right was there kind of a place in your life where it was like I know how to put this almost that was almost progressing Lee okay that's the way it is yes always there was it wasn't much hope in that or was it that's the way it is you know like what's the kind of line between a hopeful future and a begrudging acceptance well I don't know that's an easy answer a question to answer I don't know that that's an easy question to answer I think for me when I finally as a university student decided that it had to be true that I couldn't make any sense of the world in the absence of a mega narrative that explained the human condition the glory and the scum Pascal said the magnificence of a human being at their best the dreadfulness of a human being are their most depraved and the awareness that to some extent the fight between good and evil is going on inside myself I needed answers for that and I had to believe in the noble answer and I still do intellectually I can't live with despair and I think as a farmer perhaps I influenced a bit by working you know in the outdoors and so I simply can't believe it's all an accident I just can't I cannot look at creation can't look at the changing seasons I can't look at the way things grow I can't look at an animal being born and think this is all just some statistical freak I can't do it it doesn't make sense to me so I'm with Timothy Keller Christianity is both intellectually understandable and existential satisfying the alternatives to me frankly pretty bleak eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you die well we now know there's a lot of older men committing suicide they live their lives there eat they drink there marry you know in a wealthy and prosperous society and a few years before it's all over but they realize have empty it really is when I look at the magnificence of the human spirit at its best I can't believe it was meant to be empty I can't believe it was meant to be pointless and directionless so John this series is called Jesus the game-changer how for you is Jesus the game-changer well I think for me he's the game changer in the same way as I think he has been the game changer when societies have been influenced by an understanding of hurry years and and in that sense you see it's at the point of the cross that perfect justice and perfect love mate and I don't think you can have love without justice because it's meaningless and I don't think you can have justice without love because it'll never be just and so the answer to the human can under the problem of good and evil and Who am I and how do I make sense of it it's found in Jesus Christ [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Olive Tree Media

Views: 2,995

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Keywords: jesusthegamechanger, olivetreemedia, karlfaase, johnanderson, extendedinterview

Id: gNovdbqYOrg

Length: 30min 14sec (1814 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 15 2019