James O’Brien vs Piers Morgan on Wokism, Churchill's statue and trans rights | Full Disclosure

the thesis behind it is that woke which seems to be a synonym i think for for a politically correct or or a way of describing people who you feel strain too hard to be right on and to be fans of equality you see them i think you see them and it's never quite clear how far into your cheek your tongue is when you're talking about things like vegan sausage rolls but you do see them as a genuine threat i i wonder what they're associated with threats to freedom of speech because i think that there's a calling for them to be quiet well there's a lot first of all by the original definition of woke yeah i would happily sign up to being work if woke means just being aware to social and racial injustice then i'm i'm what that's not a problem but that's not what the the modern version of woke has become it's become a very destructive quite self-harming sort of feeding frenzy based around this cancer culture and i know you don't really buy into that but i see it all the time where people are getting more and more cowed about feeling they just can't express an opinion or have a haircut or wear certain culturally inappropriate outfits or you know laugh at a certain but are they really whatever it may be i feel it's self-harming i don't feel that taking things to that degree brings anybody with you and if you want to win an argument you've got to bring people with you but but the argument for me and trans is an exception to this observation because i think that trans issues are very confusing and people scream at each other with with a with a fury of certainty that i can't achieve that anything like that level do you think that's fire to no i really don't i think i think trans is is very much the exception and in fact it's a it's it's people who are possessed of really toxic and dangerous views regarding race or religion or um ethnicity or sexuality i think they they're desperate for for trans to be front and center because then they can claim there's a culture war but actually a lot of your arguments work in the context of trans they don't work in the context of of racism or religious bigotry um well they do if you start making a mockery well that's one of the racial issues yes but that that's that's what i don't get because all i know of these great battles are what i'm told by media outlets that are literally primed to infuriate and enrage me and i think i followed you on that and what i would say to you is you you think that they're sort of conflated they're concocted they're created by the media but it wasn't the media that said for example that rule britannia should be chopped from the france it was actually the catalyst was not the media he got brought to the media's attention and the media then had a lot of you know think while the sun shone but i do think it's chicken and the egg isn't it there's always something there that starts okay so name three people who in the public eye who passionately believe that we shouldn't have sung land of hope and glory at them and remember it's an audience sing along an event with no audience they're not sure it wasn't doesn't need to be three just needs to be the person in charge of the production no you're talking about an army of wokies and i can't think of one person who who passionately believed it shouldn't happen person had the power to decide it wasn't going to be a big part of the problems and then that became there then bring somebody in and sing it you could do that yeah i would definitely not in the comments i can't name anyone who was passionately opposed to yes that was the point right look you might think it's trivial but i can tell you the moment people heard that a quite woke person in charge of the bronze had decided we weren't going to be able to sing broad britannia all hell broke loose but more of course it did that's what i mean more importantly for the left and for the wokies what did it actually achieve in the end they do a u-turn as everybody knew they would so they don't win they just have a completely futile war which is guaranteed to ensure they don't get what they want to get whether something candidate an election with one innocent i don't know i'm still not entirely sure what you mean by woke and and we can hopefully we can use myself as an example on this but but for me the fact that there was no audience there simply meant that they were changing the the way that the event unfolded the times i think or the sunday times got hold of it turned it into a story the number of stories you see now about black lives matter are responsible for this review there's no such thing can you name someone who is what you could call a member of black lives matter and yet every story i read about nelson being reassessed or statues being protected that i just don't know who these people are and i sit in newsrooms and i'm sure you still do too and i hear people desperately ringing around to try to find someone to represent what you describe as an army if there's so many of them why are they so hard to find i don't think you need to find anybody when you have to board up winston churchill gandhi and mandela statues in parliament square but they did that during the countryside alliance march of course i'm not listening the right wing can behave far worse than the left wing right-wing just country people were just pointing out when there's a big event they probably boarded up those statues when you were having your big anti-iraq war march yes i listen i'm not i'm not saying that everyone's not comfortable i'm not saying i'm not culpable or part of this frenzy and noise but what i am saying is the illiberal liberal element of vote has got completely out of hand you might not accept it but go out and ask people are you sick and tired of this stuff and they'll tell you they are well of course they will because so much effort is like brexit so much effort has been put into telling people that there's an enemy at the gate no one's bothered to check whether they're actually is so off the top of your head who has been cancelled in the united kingdom what do you mean who's been cancelled well it's a word you use a lot you say that james o'brien won't be cancelled because he's got such a big platform well you have you're not going to get cancer remember the name of the author who got cancelled by you're gonna have to do better than that because you say james o'brien will not be cancelled um but i know loads of people who have been so just name a few okay well i can think of one immediately which is a good example and actually you you want to be furious about it it was the author i don't know her name is hardly a massive issue if you can't even remember her name he's a massive issue okay answer the author whose name you can't remember what does she do because the woke staff of the publisher i can do there are myriad examples in the book like this will be trans won't it it won't be any other issue it will be trans yes because that's the only thing that works because you happen to agree with it i don't i don't have a view on trans i write in my new book about how i can't pick a side as i say in the book you do have a view on trans and the moment you expressed your view on trans they tried to cancel you no and let me explain why you got that horribly wrong if i may so this is bored of this this is this well what i tweeted as you and i'm very flattered that there's so many pages um but but i mean two things i'd pick up first james o'brien who a popular successful radio presenter that's fairly uncontroversial um it never crosses o'brien's mind that he might not be right or that anyone who disagrees with him might not automatically be a vile bigot um how to be right which i don't think you've read it's the polar opposite of that on every page i don't know i know what you claim to be no no it's my book that you've mentioned let me tell you what's in it there's no relation to any of that you will tell you what's in my book could be very self-righteous you do you say that according to twitter but my book is about how easy it is to persuade good decent non-bigoted intelligent fully functioning people of things that aren't true and then i go through ten different issues everything from winterville which was was a myth right through to the controls we did and didn't have over immigration to the meaning of political correctness and on every single page or certainly after every single transcript i say this is a good person this is not a stupid person and yet under your reading everyone who disagrees with me must automatically be a vile bigot nobody could read your twitter feed without drawing the hourly conclusion that you think anybody that voted for exit it must be a total moral because no that's simply not true otherwise my best friend voted brexit my father-in-law voted brexit i mean this is where i'm wasting my breath because you're saying things that are simply not true to support your thesis so let's park that and move on to this example that you use again you think you're right and you weren't countenanced i think i'm right about who i am piers and what i wrote in my book who you are the same way you're questioning who i am okay well i'm right about what's in my book that i wrote and that you haven't read but on the transgender thing before why would you even put it in there if you haven't read it will you move on so fast on the transgender thing explain i'm not moving on i'm coming right to it now that's absolutely where we are so what i i was under i forgot that i i was under um scrutiny or criticism from people who would be described perhaps as anti-trans or tafs and they were asking me i wish i could ask him what it's like to be a woman so i explained how confusing i find it all and there's a chapter on this in my book as well which would have helped you perhaps understand what i was doing on this occasion and i said i don't think uh it's unreasonable to not let human beings with penises into changing rooms knowing that the response to that because we've done it on the radio show is always well who's going to check and that's the point at which i say actually i can simultaneously sustain two contradictory positions here because a i don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that people with penises shouldn't be allowed into female changing rooms b i can't support any form of underpants police or or genital examination before you're allowed into a changing room and my friend paris lee's who you cite here is somehow attacking me or are turning turning on me well she makes a brilliant point she says who's going to check the contents of my pants so instead of thinking crikey that's a really good point um you saw it as evidence of wokeness so first question would be who is going to check the evidence of her pants well these are the questions that have to be asked aren't they and i answered them in my new book you don't in yours so so so who who should check the contents of her i don't know is the answer right but what i would say you do think that it's reasonable to suggest that people with penises shouldn't be allowed into female only spaces what listen i'm not saying i disagree with you i'm saying when you say there's no such thing as cancer culture look at the reaction you got and i say to you you can't name anyone and if you can it will only be about trans not about all the other issues from vegan sausage rolls to black lives matter the example i was giving you before you so rudely interrupted me the the the writer who got cancelled by her publisher because she retweeted a support for jk rowling who had similar views about the transgender issue but women's rights are being damaged by the trans rights lobby and i have a lot of sympathy a lot of what she says not all of it but most of it and i do think at the very least somebody's woke as jk rowling should not end up with a hashtag rip jk rowling that is the kind of illiberal fascism which is the very thing that wokies claim that they could test most in genuine fascists but you keep saying wokies and i keep saying this only works on the trans issue so give me some examples from other areas who's being cancer who's been converting from a trans issue i've read your book give an example radical feminists who want james bond to be a woman right why do you care i care because james bond's a man did you see glenda jackson's king lear yes what did you think of it it's got nothing to do with jamie's bond it's got quite a lot to do with generally it's got quite a lot to do with gender i've got no problem with a woman's spy being a hero and then okay here's another example altering them altering them school for girls yes told all their staff they could no longer use the word girl and yet the name of the school remains ortringham school for girls and what about the girls right to be called a girl at that school given 99 of the kids there are girls google how many of them have you asked let me finish a little you wanted some examples i don't know i do but let's examine them one by one how many of the girls are altering them school for girls have you asked about how they felt about this we had a lot of people because it probably came from the pupils well hang on a lot of people from the school contacting us saying it's utterly ridiculous and what about they said why is it that the transgender right which is just a tiny minority of humans hang on we're able to dictate how everybody got called in the school but i'm agreeing with you that when it when it comes to trans there is a tension and a confusion and an unresolved um animosity between two very very furiously entrenched camps but there isn't on anything else and you've basically written a whole book haven't finished yet oh sorry google react to radical vegans screaming away by removing the egg from their salad emoji so what what about my rights as somebody who loves eggs to have the egg in the emoji why does a radical vegan get to have it removed when i like most people in this country love eggs yes have you found your access to eggs in any way limited uh only in when i when i click on google and look at this no your access to to actual eggs rather than cartoon representations the radical divisions of all these things and there are much more seriously you can't you can't say the radical divisions of all these things when you've conflated transgender with a cartoon of an egg i haven't i've just told you different example you said you're only talking about trans because that's the only thing that works nobody is cross about an egg emoji nobody's crossed about that and you're not really of course they cross about it or he wouldn't have been an emoji of an egg of course right if people weren't crossing you do you understand why i said i can't tell how how much time you spend with your tongue in your cheek i mean hand on heart you're really crossed that google removed an egg from their salad and on her on the more serious point yes as long as it's not trans yes okay you can pick any subject you like hand on heart my issue with it all collectively is that this kind of nonsense what it drives is a sense of ongoing all-encompassing censorship where companies in particular are now bowing to pressure from the white brigade to virtue signal their way to a place that i find hellish where people are being dictated to about every single part of their lives and most of it is trivial as you rightly observe but it's the it's the fact it happens on trivial stuff that a distracts from the bigger picture and b drives people completely nuts and makes them think that they have no ability to have any freedom of speech or expression and i think that is legitimately a really serious issue but but you don't think people should be allowed to say it would be great if james bond was played by a woman that's freedom of speech but if it happens why not because james bond's a man yeah a fictional man he's a man he was written he's not real he's a man do you want me to change bond to be a woman right well like i hand on art i could not give a fig mate okay i need something it's a good i do you know what i'd do i'd go to the cinema and decide whether it was a good film or not you have things that you care about i have things i care about but i don't this is why i like you so much because i think you really do care about this and it is you must on some level realize how ridiculous it is and that's why i have a problem with your book because because the trans issue is profoundly important and i write very uh great length and very in great detail about it in both the book um i published a couple of years ago that you haven't read and the book that comes out next week and and and there's a huge danger of conflating cartoon eggs with young people who feel they've been born into the wrong body because you decided that that's the one issue that matters so i gave you got a lot of space to list all the great crimes against all the great crimes committed by wokies and you've come up with james bond and a cartoon egg mate go through the more serious things in the book what are the more serious things well let's talk about trans let's talk about racism and the reaction to george voice and the ridiculous way it went away from being a battle for racial equality and racial justice into utter ridiculousness about anything that anybody in the world on the woke side decided it was racist and had to be cancelled for example i ended up focusing on rural britannia faulty towers statues were being destroyed all over america famous presidents that were the most tenuous links in some cases to slavery over here winston churchill being boarded up and mandela being boarded up but we're back in there again they always brought them up completely crazy because and and the damage is done to the actual cause i hear you i don't buy it but you're i think you'll soon see it i mean okay so final question can you name any major public figures who think that statues of winston churchill should be taken down yes go on interview them on the show who uh candy andrews the professor he is the guy that every producer in the country will tell you and we can't find anybody to pursue this point that's the person we call and i did say public figures winston churchill statue was defaced it was by an idiot student i sometimes think if you'd been to university you'd realize that idiot students have been around forever and giving them this level of profile and importance and treating them as if they're a threat to civilization as we know it is their dream come true peers there are lots of people who think that winston churchill is the problem when it comes to the race debate to which i say actually he got rid of the worst races ever there aren't though there might there might be some dozy undergraduates who've read the wrong books and haven't actually grown up yet but my attitude would always be i'll bless them they'll grow out of it yours is oh my god they're destroying civilization as we know it and we must stop them now you realize that when i wrote the book yes people like you were the people i really wanted to read it yes because i knew you'd react like this but i'm not i'm reacting with great affection and amusement no seriously i i promise you i'm not i'm never going to look at a cup i'm never going to look at a cartoon egg in the same way i'm not outraged but just because you use me as an example i i didn't recognize your account not least because um paris lee's remains a very good friend of mine and she made an extremely good point about the underpants police so i i couldn't work out whether or not i'm being held up as an example of being woke or a victim of cancer culture i think you're an ironic victim of cancer culture which you don't think exists yes except on trans issues well i've given an example where on trans issues which is the only issue you seem to care about well i care about it more than eggs forgive me cartoon eggs well you only care about things that you care about i care about equality and decency and honesty and integrity and accountability your your stick is to blindly partisan about an issue and so isn't it by the way you do it very well no but i don't do that at all you will never but you have to do this there's lots of things you can criticize me for without making stuff up you've made up stuff in the book you don't have to make up stuff here made up in the book i love being wrong well you said that everybody who doesn't agree with me i consider to be an uneducated bigot whereas the book you're actually referring to when you say that is full of explanations i read your twitter feed well my twitter feed honestly mate everybody life's too short permanently do you know what we've done we're not gonna have any time to talk about trump so the three areas on my twitter feed the three areas upon which you've historically sought to lock horns with me were the utter um the way that donald trump's depravity outside the white house would make it absolutely clear to anybody honest how completely dangerous he would be inside the white house that the brexit that people voted for was absolutely impossible to deliver and that boris johnson was supremely unfit for office what did i get wrong you're always right about everything you know just on those three issues which are the only things you've ever tweeted you got wrong is that you refused to accept the result of the referendum no no i didn't that's not what i asked you i said that the people weren't going to get the brexit that they voted for they're not are they of course not but i i you agree with me of course you know i agree with you about brexit and trump trump as you know i've known him a long time i see good and bad in him and i think he may lose the election for all the bad side of him coming to the fore but i don't see him as bad as you do but i don't see him as good as he sees himself and uh boris johnson's fitness for office boris johnson's turned out to be an absolute clinker you

Channel: LBC

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Keywords: lbc, lbc live, watch lbc, interview, interviews, politics news, british politics, uk politics live, live debate, debate, current affairs 2020, Coronavirus, Coronavirus update, Brexit, covid 19, corona, boris johnson interview, James O’Brien, Iain Dale, Nick Ferrari, Johnson, Black Lives Matter, Protests, Piers Morgan, Piers Morgan interview, Piers Morgan interview lbc, trans rights, lgbtq, gay rights, churchill statue, LGBTQ+, james o brien interview, james o brien lbc

Id: z4i7yhzPt8M

Length: 21min 4sec (1264 seconds)

Published: Sat Oct 31 2020