Ivan Milat: Australia’s Most Notorious Serial Killer

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today's episode ivan millet australia's most notorious serial killer what happens here if you're new i have a script in front of me that i've never read before and we are taking this cold read thing into potentially uh irresponsible waters today because this script is by it's not by callum don't worry callum is still around but i realize we haven't been on the most reliable publishing schedule yesterday and while i don't have a problem with that the sponsors that make the show possible they're like simon we need you to make more episodes because he missed our spots and i'm like yeah okay okay guys i'll sort it out don't worry so uh david david baker who uh has written for me before so it's not like i'm gonna read this and i know it and it would be nonsense david's very talented writer he's right as i said he's room for me before so i'm sure it's going to be good but uh yeah we i didn't want to i didn't want to read it before recording it because with casual criminalist especially i feel like part of the charm of this show is uh that i kind of discover what's happening with you guys all i know about this is it's about australia's most notorious serial killer and that it's going to be a very long episode because this is a very thick thick pile of paper that i've got in front of me so uh let's just jump into it as i said ivan miller australia's most notorious serial killer thanks to david writing it thank you to myself for reading it and jen afterwards is going to add in those images if you're watching this show that audio if you're listening and let's go [Music] it is the australia day weekend at the end of january 1990 a former sailor in the british navy paul onions interestingly named age 24 has come from the united kingdom to australia to do a bit of backpacking he spent some time in a hostel in sydney then he took a train to the outskirts of the city with the intent of hitchhiking all the way southwest to mildura and thank you david for putting a pronunciation guide in there because i would definitely mispronounce that people had a massive go at me like i i didn't live it down on twitter forever because i pronounced melbourne melbourne how it's spelled some people are like yo fatboy melbourne idiot melbourne he lives in melbourne it is that way round though right melbourne not relevant on the new south wales victorian border where he hoped to get a job as a fruit picker this is the most british thing i've ever heard like when i was 18 this was a very common thing like you'd go on a gap year gap year to australia or uh yeah australia was very popular i didn't i've never been to australia and you'd get it i think at least back in the day what happens is you could go there people would backpack for six months and then if you wanted to extend your visa for six months i think you had to get a job in like do some farming or something which seems really strange but then you could go work on a farm for like three months and they'd allow you to extend your visa for another six months or something like that don't go and go to australia based on this advice definitely look up the visa policy before you go i'm not an expert and this information is probably a good 15 years out of date but uh yeah that was the thing okay we're a paragraph in maybe we should hurry up thirsty from the summer heat paul onions stops off at a convenience store to get something to drink it is there that he's approached by a man in his 30s or 40s dark-haired tan muscular wearing a plaid button-up over a t-shirt and sporting a bike moustache the man sees paul onions carrying a backpack and out of nowhere offers him a lift south onions cannot believe his luck and accept i get the feeling like most of the time if this was you know not a true crime podcast we'll be like oh what a lucky guy he got a ride all the way south i mean i've hitchhiked a few times in my life oh my god one of them as a racist story not not from me but from the people i was hitchhiking with and uh i was just like hitchhiking and then they were saying all this like racist stuff and i'm like oh who have i got in the car with and they're like this was in america and they're like do y'all want to come to like a barbecue we're having tonight and i'm like no thanks i'll just jump drop me in the town i'm really tired just gonna go to the motel and hang out alone it was very weird um so yeah half the time i've been hitchhiking was uh was with racists great down the road the driver begins to behave strangely on edge jumpy paul and the man make conversation and the man starts ranting about immigrants coming into the country from asia what is everyone who just offers people hitchhiking rights a racist this was not about people from asia it was uh i was in georgia uh and they were just uh they just didn't like uh african-americans very much which was uh definitely a bit of a weird experience for me it's like oh we already covered this but it was really uncomfortable at this point because i'm not a racist at this point paul feels his friendly warmth towards the man drain away but there is something else paul can't quite put his finger on for some reason alarm bells start ringing in his head and he starts observing the man closely about 90 minutes down the road the driver takes an abrupt turn towards balang oh there's a pronunciation guide thank you again david bellanglo state forest a sprawling thick mass of pine and eucalyptus trees stretching for 40 square kilometers or 15 square miles onions doesn't know the roads and is none the wiser as to why the man would take this route i don't know dude i'm seeing in the passenger seat of that car and they managed to drive it deeper and deeper into the forest which is off the highway like not the direction i'm going i'd be like oh god okay i guess i'm getting murdered today i mean i just assume at that point that it's murder although this guy probably survived i guess to tell this story or maybe the less nice way to think about it would maybe be the serial killer or i'm assuming serial killer because of the title of today's episode that he's telling the story later about how he murders this onions guy but i'm hoping for now that paul onions escapes and gets to tell this story which is great but it sounds a bit hopeful doesn't it onions doesn't know the roads and is none the wiser as to why the man would take this route the reason is simple in the forest no one will find the body all brilliant the oot slows down the driver is constantly looking in the rear-view mirror for other cars paul onions finds this odd and asks if there's a problem the man replies that they're losing the radio signal from sydney and that he's going to pull over to get some cassette tapes out from under the driver's seat paul finds this strange because there are cassette tapes sitting right in front of them within the man's reach the driver pulls over gets out and starts rummaging under his seat paul decides to test his reaction by getting out of the passenger seat and standing by the side of the road the driver immediately asked paul why has gotten out paul explained that he was just getting out to stretch his legs after an awkward pause paul decides that he's being paranoid and gets back in the car and puts on his seatbelt and they take off again a minute later the driver pulls over again and he says he'll look under the seat one last time for the tapes in a swift fluid movement the man pulls out a revolver and aims at a pool this is robbery the man snarls uh-oh it's not a robbery it's definitely not robbery you'd have robbed him already why are you driving into the woods and robbing him now he's also a backpacker what you're getting murdered pool mate he reaches under the seat again and pulls out a length of rope when paul sees it he with a singing feeling he realizes that whatever the driver intends he was going to take his time in a split-second decision paul leaps out of the vehicle leaving all of his stuff behind and just legs it he runs down the highway the man shouts after him or stop or i'll shoot but paul keeps going the man starts firing the revolver and pursuing him on foot paul begins frantically waving down passing cars oh i have to say like in my mind australia's just empty which i mean i know it's a huge country not that many people live there relatively so most of it's empty i'm assuming just you know in those there's quite a few australian horror movies and there's never anyone there it's always just like yeah yeah of course there's no cars coming by this is australia but i'm really glad that there are they slow down to see what's happening and then they speed right off again in fright paul notices the man getting closer paul resolves to jump right in front of the next car that comes over the crest of a nearby hill he'd rather be hit by a car than submit to whatever fate the man has in store for him yeah pretty smart dude you can't just be like waving down cars because he'll be like if i was driving i'd be like let's not pick up the crazy guy but if he's jumping in front of my car and waving me down obviously there's some emergency and i would stop probably to my regret because the other dude's got a gun it's like i don't carry a gun in my car maybe if i was australian i would a guns allowed in australia paul onions leaps in front of a family caravan driven by joanne berry who is heading out to canberra with her sister and five children jan stops she sees that paul is panicked and shaken he shouts he has a gun and he's going to shoot me paul dives into the sliding door and hides behind the driver's seat with the roar of the engine jan swiftly pulls away as paul looked over his shoulder for one last look at the man standing in the road he sees something strange the man is smirking oh my god this is like some terrifying horror movie right here is it this is one of those episodes well i'm just recording this alone in my dark office and end up looking around for like the smiling man in the corner with the gun i hope you're not alone right now it's like i hope you're surrounded by people at public transport or like somewhere you know where you're not alone because that would be i'm scared and i'm reading this joan barry drives to a nearby police station in borel she heads inside with paul onions together they report what has happened neither of them had clocked the number on the man's license plate the stretch of road had no significance to the police the report gets buried in the local police files and is quietly forgotten paul spent wait the dude was like discharging a gun at another dude the police aren't going to go out there and like i guess he's long gone though right so yeah the police that what's the point we'll just be wasting our time and in this case i know normally we rag on the police for not doing their job but in this case they kind of did and you're not gonna find him paul spent some time back in sydney he tells his parents he was robbed his girlfriend arrives and they tore australia together this time on a bus smart move although if it's a greyhound i don't know if australia has greyhounds but as i mentioned previous episodes i did the greyhounds around america i'd almost rather risk hitchhiking like when i hitchhiked in the states it was actually on that same trip but after my greyhound passes expired and i just needed to ride into town because i was hiking in the forest god i'm surprised i didn't get murdered and that might have been the end of paul's story if not some gruesome discoveries made along the same stretch of road the bodies of balanglo [Music] oh no i know there was a pronunciation guy before but i've already forgotten how to say balango i'm not gonna look it up i'm sorry australians sorry david he's probably watching this you don't have to include them all the way through we'll just accept them a bit did it uh it's the 17th of december of september 1992 in a small clearing in the middle of balango state forest far off the bush walking paths where people seldom tread two people are practicing their orientationing orienteering and they discover a corpse orienteering's gotta be one of those things that kind of just when was this 1992 yeah like post because i remember having to do orienteering at school i was in the navy cadets and we'd have to go out into i don't know into the forest or into some random fields and it'd be like okay you've got to orientate yourself using like three points of reference on the map and there'd be a weird compass with all sorts of lines on it and i said yeah but we've got gps don't we why would we do that i remember i think i've maybe even told this story before like when we i did the duke of edinburgh gold um which is like it's not stupid it's really nice i was gonna like as a kid it seemed very important you do that you get into university it's like one of those things you put on your cv as a 16 year old and i never finished it actually i did all the requirements i just never filled in the bloody book um and what was i talking about yeah we'd go hiking in there below or you've got to orientate yourself and a friend of mine had an early gps system from a boat like his uh his parents had a boat so he took this like gps um radio device thing and it told you your coordinates so we just used that so essentially we cheated on our g government gold which feels a bit it was great it was i'm gonna say it feels bad but i never really went i never got the gold thing so i'm like whatever great story fact boy why don't you carry on with the episode okay where were we they alert the police oh they found that they're orienteering people god that was a long diversion for a pointless story the orienteering people they alert the police the following morning a second corpse is discovered 100 meters away from the first one they're later identified as british backpackers caroline clark and joanne walters both in their early 20s who were last seen on the 18th of april 1992. police found the remains of gags and ligatures at the site the women must have been bound and gagged as they were transported from a nearby vehicle to the killing grounds where they now lay both women have been raped walters had stab wounds to her upper spine inflicted by a bowie knife just below the neck which would have paralyzed her and rendered a helpless during the killer's assault oh my god this i don't know why but i find this one of the darkest things i have no idea what tv show it was but it stuck with me for years as being just the most terrifying way to die there was i think it was like i don't know it was one of these drug cartel ones and as soon as you mentioned cartels you know it's gonna get scary they would paralyze people by cutting their spine and then torturing them and then putting them in a box like he'd pack the body into a box while they were still alive they just couldn't move because they'd been paralyzed and i'm like you know at that point it's like you're not ever going to walk again or like move again and then you're being like raped and tortured and i'm like that is just i can't i just want to immediately move on because this is just so unpleasant to think about which i mean i probably should have thought about before starting a true crime podcast i guess but here we are um the killer evidently tried the same maneuver with clark stabbing her once below the neck but not severing the spine caroline clark was blindfolded with red cloth and her head was used as target practice being shot 10 times from three different angles oh my god i'm already like let's get this mofo and i'm pretty sure australia doesn't have the death penalty but maybe we can cross our fingers that they did in 1992. everyone uh this show goes out as a podcast stands on youtube everyone's always in the youtube comments it's like simon's feeling about the death penalty not sure simon in every episode god i hope they have the death penalty and it's like yeah because i'm like you know ethically i'm like i don't think it's right to kill people because they killed people but then i read about these crimes and i'm like yes totally okay kill them let's kill them as soon as possible now let's go joanne walters meanwhile was stabbed four times in the chest once in the neck and nine times in the back two ribs had been completely severed the killer had taken his time at the site made camp drank and smoked and it was likely many hours after their initial abduction before the women finally died now it's the 5th of october 1993 over a year later a man looking for firewood finds two skeletons in bellando state forest and they're later identified as australian backpackers deborah everest and james gibson both 19 a couple from frankston victoria they had last been seen leaving sydney headed south to albury on december 30th 1989 nearly four years earlier james gibson's spine had been cut causing paralysis paralysis deborah everest meanwhile had been beaten about the head causing two skull fractures and a broken jaw knife marks on the skull indicated that the killer had been cutting her as well and she'd been stabbed once in the back gibson was then stabbed eight times and where and was found where he died in the fetal position now it's the first of november 1993 and the police had been hunting for more bodies a skeleton was found in a clearing by a fire trail in balanglo state forest it was later identified as simone schmidler german backpacker aged 21 last seen in sydney on january 20th 1991 before hitchhiking alone to melbourne melbourne i don't know if david's watched one of my vid that video before where i pronounced melbourne melbourne mel but he's put in the in the pronunciation guideline a pronunciation guide for melbourne mel bin though m-e-l-b-i-n so i was even in the corrected version i was saying melbourne which i guess is kind of like that when her friend warned her to be careful simone said reassuringly that she was carrying a knife for protection a few hours later the killer had tied simone up and carried her from his vehicle to a small clearing where he protected bro proceeded to cut her spinal cord the killer then built a small campfire and settled in to relax after a few hours of torment he stabbed schmidle in a total of eight times puncturing her heart and lungs leaving her to die face down before covering the body with a thin layer of leaves and branches making a pattern resembling an egg there is evidence that the killer returned to the site months later and deposited the clothing of another female victim for reasons unknown three days later on november 4th 1993 police found two more skeletons on a nearby fire trail these belong to a german couple gabor nogao no nogaboa and anya habsheed both in their early twenties they had last been seen leaving sydney for mildura on the 26th of december 1991. both were found buried in shallow graves gabor a large and strong man had been used as target practice and was shot in head six times anu was decapitated and her head has never been found it must have been taken from the forest as a grim memento then disposed of later at another distant location court records indicate that all but one of the victims showed signs of sexual interference police determined that the killer was bisexual the victim profile was good-looking young hitchhikers these are the canonical seven victims of the backpacker killer they were murdered between 1989 and 1992 and their bodies were discovered in bolanglo state forest between 1992 and 1993. all of them except for the bodies of caroline clarke and joanne walters had lain so long undiscovered in the forest that their bodies are completely decomposed such was the usefulness of the remote australian bushland and i stress the words canonical seven here and you'll soon see why oh god because there are so many more this is i feel like i say this almost every week but just the spine cutting thing really makes this like worse than well no i don't know we've talked about the children being burned in their house and all of this stuff previously i just feel like all of these are just horribly brutal and every time i'm like this is the worst and then it's like it's not fact boy though is it it's not the worst all of them are the worst and these people are horrible except for the heists which we occasionally do but get less views for sure but i really feel like occasionally we need to cover something that isn't a horrible murder because otherwise i'll i'll probably go insane onions to the rescue meanwhile back in england the story broke of a serial killer on the loose in new south wales this was a particular interest because two of the victims caroline clark and joanne walters were british paul onions was watching the news he had suffered from symptoms that would later be diagnosed as ptsd from his ordeal near bolanglo state forest back in 1990 he had not told his family of the attempted murder by the roadside because he didn't want them to go through any mental anguish the story coming out of australia again ran alarm bells with paul's keen instincts it was the same region where he had escaped his would-be captor the details of the abduction of backpackers force binding and murder in balanglo forest seemed all too familiar a typical person may have ignored the new story and gotten on with his life but onions went to the australian embassy and made a call to the new south wales police on november 13 1993. his crucial tip disappeared into a sea of other information as the police whittled down a list of 230 murder suspects to 32. the australian police rediscovered paul onion's message on april the 13th 1994 five months later after very few break breaks had been made in the case i feel like if you're a british dude i mean this is back in the day going to taking the effort to go to the australian embassy book an appointment go inside and then phone a local australian police department if i was that police department i'd be like that might also be [ __ ] but it's a lot less likely i mean that's gonna it's more likely that that's gonna be a credible tip because the guy you know he's like i feel strongly enough this about this to make a strong effort to give you this tip i'll just probably pay more attention to that so they found his tip again they sent out they sent out the original boral police report from 1990 but it couldn't be found or it was not deemed worthwhile to compose one in the first place they may do with the desk clerk's notes from that day paul's story was corroborated by testimony from joanne berry his roadside rescuer paul onions was flown by the new south wales police to sydney he had a flash of paranoia since he had left all of his things including his passport in the killer's car and the man knew exactly who he was and how to reach him and this could be a trap that is that's gotta be pretty paranoid i mean i feel like there's lots of ways you could check that also you see that man at the airport or like he tries to get up you subway you'll be like no no no attends paul onions was greeted at the airport by two officers who showed in their badges on may 5th paul onions positively identified one ivan millat from the photo lineup as the man who had tried to abduct him in january 1990. ivan miller was already known to the police and was under surveillance in connection with the blanglo slayings for several months millet had sold his four-wheel drive is i guess it's some sort of truck it's in it's in like quote marks so i assume this is some australian thing maybe oh i should mention that david is australian so he knows all like i mean he doesn't know more about this case just because he's australian i mean i guess he does because it was i mean this seems like pretty big news story anyway but he's going to be more familiar because he because he's australian but i like these australian things like an oot i don't know what that is maybe it's some sort of australian truck i don't know shortly after the discovery of clark so he sold his truck shortly after the discovery of clark and walters in 1992. millat had no alibi for any of the seven murders or the attack on paul onions a girlfriend of one of ivan's co-workers had also reported him to the police in connection with the murders for essentially being a local weirdo obsessed with guns ivan and the entire family were known in the year area as mischief makers my dude and then it said that mischief would be a very light way what was he up to yes just he's up to a bit of mischief cutting spines and then murdering people many times minimum seven allegedly so far so far allegedly but i got a feeling this is going to become a very non-alleged and ivan in particular was known for a long rap sheet of alleged violent acts and creepy dealings in the past three decades none of this was substantial enough for an arrest though it was the testimony of paul onions that clinched things and brought ivan millet to the top of the list of suspects and the and at the very least the police could bring him with the attack on onions back in 1990. yeah mate and you've got to be going to prison for that right this is four years late that sort of thing there's always these statute of limitations i'm always like wait we shot a gun at someone should we really have that but i'm assuming four years is way too short i don't even know if i like we don't have something like that in the uk but i know in america it's always like yeah enough time went past and it's like he's not a criminal anymore okay but four years which i uh i think it's a good thing most of the time because it's like okay we don't want to be but for this it's like you're like shooting a dude and like kidnapping him be like let's let's send that dude to prison it doesn't matter how long it's been he needs to serve some time because he's crazy approximately 50 officers surrounded millet's house well sorry did i miss a bit no no they could bring him in for the attack on the owners back in 1990 okay approximately 50 officers surrounded millet's house arrested him and raided the premises at the same time 250 police raided the houses of his mother and many brothers they found a gold line of evidence tons of guns including a rifle found hidden in a wall and a bowie knife that matched the descriptions of weapons used in the murders they found clothing report belonging to the victims they found backpacks they found camping equipment they found cameras some of the possessions even had names written on them most of these were not even concealed but were lying right out in the open millat had even given one of his female victims shirts to his girlfriend you what the [ __ ] my dude what is wrong with you and also i mean to be fair like i know we criticize the police a lot in this podcast but often i mean they're the ones catching people and often these guys are caught in this case top job australian police i mean it's been a few years and i mean obviously you didn't catch him before he murdered a bunch of people but this seems like an extremely successful raid ivan miller had expressly broken one of the cardinal rules for criminals who do not take trophies yes or at the very least you don't keep them in plain view of your house and you're the houses of your relatives add that to the list of casual criminalist rules for criminals millat was charged with the murders of the seven bagpackers on the 31st of may on june 28th he fired his defense counsel after his lawyer had advised him to take an insanity plea after lengthy preliminaries ivan miller's trial began on the 26th of march 1996. after four months and 145 witnesses millet was found guilty on all counts given seven consecutive life sentences with no possibility of parole and given an additional 18 years visit her carpal onions after his conviction ivan miller always maintained his innocence alleging a vast conspiracy theory where the police planted the evidence during the raids in order to quickly pin the crimes on a suspect yeah that seems likely after they were happy not to have a suspect for for years and then they found someone extremely reasonable and now that no one is going to buy this i don't know if they have jury trials or judge trials in australia but either way no one is buying that ivan nobody so unless they do which would be terribly disappointing we'll find out sydney had recently won a bid to host the 2000 olympic games millett claimed that the police and city government wanted to sweep the serial killings under the rug so sydney and the surrounding area did not gain a reputation for being unsafe this is a massive stretch guys and all it would have taken was swearing several hundred police officers into perpetual secrecy and one of the most high profile crimes in australian history ivan millett died painfully on october 27 2009 of esophageal and stomach cancer without ever admitting to his guilt i like that david included it's really hard not to say calum i like the fact that david included painfully there i'm glad esophageal cancer and stomach cancer is a painful death i mean actually i'm not i'm rich that sounds terrible i'm really not because i'm sure lots of people die of that and they're not horrible serial killers but in this case i'm glad that it's painful for you ivan i'm glad you had a painful death because you seem like an absolute [ __ ] monster so an escaped victim manages to put a serial killer behind bars and the bastard dies in prison this would be a tidy ending to our story if we didn't have two more mysteries to solve number one millett was 45 at the start of the backpack of killings a rather late bloomer for a serial killer and there is evidence that his body count was much larger and extended across several decades number two the belongings of the victims were found in the houses of miller family members who almost universally closed ranks and insisted upon ivan's innocence what did they know about the killings before ivan's arrest and worse did any of them partake in the murders oh my god you must be you should investigate the [ __ ] out of that family i mean i think it's going to be harder easier sorry easier to like if you're going from the place of having solid suspects then you can start looking back and unsolved crimes and tying them together hopefully i mean it's going to be a lot of police work but it's i feel like it would be easier from that side especially since you've raided their houses and you've found all this evidence that the ivan brother the main guy seems to be just happy leaving everywhere you've probably got tons of other evidence of other weird unsolved that you can start going back through that's going to be easier what i'm saying is that's going to be easier easier starting point than just random bodies because we could start you know going back through the render bodies that have been discovered in like random police records and tying them to this uh this terrible family who i mean allegedly hopefully all end up in prison who knows meet the millets [Music] stefan millet was a croatian immigrant born in 1902 shortly after arriving in australia he married it's really hard not to say australia without an australian accent i always just want to be like australia and i have to stop myself because it's not appropriate he married a local go mo girl margaret piddleston when she was 16 and steppen was 34. that is i'm 34. like right now recording this i mean the idea of marrying a 16 year old other than being illegal i think maybe you can marry someone when you're 16 here if you've got like permission from their parents or something weird but uh what it's like what else are you gonna talk about 16 years old they went on to have 14 children or maybe they weren't talking they were just having lots of children between 1939 and 1962 four girls 10 boys ivan was the fifth child of the family born in 1944. step in was a choir man old-fashioned hard-working while it is difficult to get an objective idea of the miller family life later accounts by search boris millet indicate that the father was prone to use frequent and fairly severe corporal punishment apparently ah yes look another trend in basically every casualist episode ever ah physical abuse or any sort of abuse from parents to children leads to uh leads to bad outcomes again shocking sarcasm laden gents sarcasm apparently steppen demanded that you had to bring along a big stick to your own beating beyond that it's difficult to get an idea of how abusive the household was and the billet children almost universally say their upbringing was a happy one oh okay i mean apart from the beating i guess back in the day it was like yeah of course i beat my children of course they do how else would we stop them from misbehaving which i mean just i guess back in the day was how people thought so be like yeah yeah no i had a great childhood there were beatings of course there were beatings who wasn't beaten but it was great we went to disney and then had a beating we do know from boris's account the violence was quite common between siblings and they were constantly roughing each other up additionally they had been trained to use guns since the age of six or seven oh my god i was making a comment the other day i can't remember it was casual criminalist maybe it was and i was saying that you know it's weird that in it was america and they were like teaching 11 year olds gun safety and someone wrote to me on twitter being like well it's really good that they have gun saved because it teaches responsible gun ownership and otherwise you'd have a bunch of people who are not responsible with guns and i'm just like dude how about we don't give the 11 year olds guns is that not i mean come on that thing about uh bearing arms or whatever that you're constitutionally obliged to that should only apply when you're of a certain age and that age should not be eleven my dude uh we also know that the family was a close was close-knit insular with very little contact with outsiders essentially forming their own little commune i mean the problem with that though is you i mean unless they're all like into incest as well it's like a commune you need some outside blood because otherwise it's gonna get weird again according to boris accounts the older brother noticed ivan beginning to display a cruel streak around the age of 12 i've been golfer with his brothers and caused chaos in the neighborhood committing acts of vandalism and once he allegedly cut a dog in half with a machete my dude again again absolute casual criminalist classic here if your kid is torturing animals get them into therapy or to see a psychiatrist because i don't know seems pretty often that if your kid is torturing animals or cutting a [ __ ] dog in half with a machete they you know they've got issues that should probably be resolved so you don't end up the parent of a serial killer the hallmarks of early age psychopathy yes a neurological and built-in lack of empathy police were constantly playing paying visits to the millet household by the age of 13 ivan became so troublesome that he was briefly packed off to boarding school that doesn't seem like a good solution it's like oh what am i going to do well my kid's being really naughty so i'll send them to boarding school where they're gonna get less attention brilliant good job guys as ivan's adolescence progressed his crimes escalated to theft breaking and entering houses store burglaries grand theft auto and petty on-the-spot robberies at the age of 17 ivan allegedly confessed to his brother boris that it shot a taxi driver neville knight during a robbery gone wrong his break in so many casual criminalist rules you don't tell other people about your crimes even your brother don't tell people about your crimes guys what are you up to this left knight paralyzed uh millet fled you in the investigation wait did he murder him or paralyze him oh it just shot him sorry he shot a taxi driver and paralyzed him he fled during the investigation another man alan dillon went down for the crime and got five years what australia that guy was convicted of paralyzing a taxi driver by shooting him he went to prison for just five years am i the only one who thinks that's an ins if someone shot me and i got paralyzed and they got out of prison in five years i mean five years is in a short amount of time but for paralyzing someone with a gun it should be 20 years come on what the hell according to boris an innocent man went to prison but boris did not report i mean obviously he's innocent so this guy shouldn't have gone to prison but as you know he's found guilty so he got this punishment which seems very light at the time boris did not want to see ivan go to prison not that he really made a difference ivan would spend most of the 1960s in and out of prison he was banged up in juvie at the age of 17 for theft at 20 he was given a year and a half prison sentence for breaking and entering just after he got out he was caught stealing a car and did two more years wait steal a car get two years paralyze a guy get five oh my at age 22 he was given three more years for theft that pretty much wrapped up the swinging 60s with him behind bars two interesting things to note about this budding criminal career the first is shortly after one of his releases ivan is alleged to have joked that he killed a man and buried his body out in the bush there is no evidence that this was anything more than a joke and no missing person or victim has ever been identified but given his later career it does give one pause for thought second when ivan was 20 and already in trouble with the law he alleged he had stolen a car and when the cops came to nab him his younger brother bill aged 17 by his own account took the blame and served a little over a year in jail geez okay good brother such were the isolationist loyalties of the millet family where they appeared to operate a little like these a thieves guild with no respect for whom they hurt or why does society's established laws it was that sort of secretive collective over which charismatic psychopath like ivan quickly developed a personal dominance and cultivated fierce unquestioning loyalty in the majority of his siblings a charismatic criminal casanova i don't like the c word like i i mean i don't exactly lay off the swearing and i was reading an article about the other day about how you don't need to swear to like make it make a stronger point oh my god i'm always swearing to make a stronger point and i wish i was smarter and could make a stronger point without having to resource to cursing but i don't like the c word it's just unpleasant to say it feels i don't know in british english i feel like americans are always like ah the british are like c word that c word this and uh i don't know we definitely are but i just find it particularly unpleasant which brings us i also remember when i was first introduced to this word about 11 or 12 years old and i had no idea what it meant so i kind of imagined some sort of like scary creature and that that was what i thought it meant which is a fascinating story fact boy why don't you carry on with the script yes which brings us to ivan millett's personality well i feel like we've touched a lot on his personality his personality is straight psycho some psychopaths graduate from killing puppies to being smelly corpulent perverts like john wayne gacy not so with ivan millat who became a charismatic psychopath more akin to a bogan version of ted bundy it is worthwhile to note that an estimated one to five percent of the human population are born with a mild to severe form of psychopathy or an unusually low amount of empathy for others that can even be detected on mri scans oh my gosh one to five percent some i suppose some degree of psychopathy is like i mean that just means you're less empathetic at some point i mean it's not going to be like psychopath not psychopath it's going to be like the empathy sliding scale i mean you get some people who are ridiculously empathetic and they're i guess the people you want to be friends with and then you gradually drift down the scale towards people and it's like no i don't even know what it's like to feel you're like oh those people are in trouble in terms of evolution it makes sense for some of our human ancestors to have been a bit more cutthroat in order to survive and pass on their genes provided they were not so repugnant that they were exiled from a hunter gatherer community many individuals with undiagnosed psychopathy go their entire lives excelling in fields like business law or politics without ever killing anyone or at least not getting caught so yeah this is the thing there's plenty of we cover people on casual christmas all the time a lot of them get caught or found out as i'm sure there's plenty you know the number of unsell murders out there is fairly high because most people just not getting caught people who knew ivan millet almost universally described him as a loner who kept his inner thoughts to himself but nevertheless was a smooth talker many of them also describe him as kind and generous both so those who knew him and the cops who interrogated him describe him as sublimely confident his response under extreme negative pressure seems to simply have been to smile or to smirk when ivan was in his 20s and 30s he would go around immaculately dressed and was tan handsome and muscular he inspired admiration in envy and many men he inspired lust in many women what's that phrase men want to be and women want to be with him is that is that james bond is that i don't know what that refers to but sounds like this dude unlike many ugly or creepy rapist murderers he seemed to have no problems in that department though criminal psychologists have explained that sex foreign was not about emotional connection or physical gratification it was about control the same went for his relations with his family as such he cultivated and enjoyed a god-like power over the family and women in his life more than once the two groups intersected oh wait what uh i don't know wait we're not necessarily talking incest because it could just be he has an affair with his brother's wife or something let's carry on and see whether it's incest ivan is known to have conducted lengthy affairs with his sister's in-law i'm okay good i mean the best thing about it so far ivan is confirmed to have conducted an 11-year on-and-off relationship with marilyn mellat the wife of his older brother boris ivan would visit maryland while her husband was away at work the affair was so extensive that ivan became the illegitimate father of marilyn's daughter lynese who was born in the mid-1960s boris raised the girl as his own when boris found out about the affair his father steppen allegedly encouraged boris to kill ivan holy [ __ ] dad what are you up to but he soon relented saying you should kill the man who takes your wife but on the other hand ivan is my son and i do not want you to kill my son brilliant reasoning there stephan you uh your big brain this gives you a peek into the temperament of the millet household according to boris the cockholded brother older brother at one point aimed at garnet ivan but was unable to shoot him because his mother kept stepping in the way marinin kept up her affair with ivan for some time and took up with him again in the late 1980s but allegedly dumped him when ivan refused to commit to her until his death marilyn expressed sympathy for ivan is reported in some newspapers calling him the love of her life don't do that i mean this is only going to be news a news story afterwards right after the guys turned out to be this like multi the serial killing murderer so don't be saying afterwards that he's your the love of your life that just is a bad play be like barely knew him barely knew him we just we just had an affair it was maybe a month not definitely not 11 continuous years where i had his illegitimate son and fell deeply in love with him don't say that bad advice bet you need better pr it should be noted that boris millet is one of the few family members who has openly denounced ivan as guilty as charged and a horrendous psychopath and kit serial killer well yeah i mean of course you do you had an affair with your wife due to his openness and also he's super guilty due to his openness he also became a prime source for the inner workings of his family in an otherwise tightly lipped group of people however the millet family alleged that boris simply makes the statement out of revenge against ivan for stealing his wife a charge that boris firmly denies from the interviews i've seen i don't think boris is acting solely out of revenge but is generally horrified at what his brother has done yeah and also also plus side revenge it's like he's not doing it for revenge but it is a very sweet extra however in some interviews i get the vague impression that boris may not always be telling the full truth about what went on i submit all of this to you so i can simply so you can simply weigh the claims and the information accordingly for yourself ivan is also noted to have carried on a one year affair with maureen millat it's like does he only like having does he only like having relationships with people who have the same surname as him my dude come on who was briefly the wife of ivan's younger brother wally maureen testifies that she always found ivan kind an insightful and expressed shock and horror when ivan was arrested for the backpack of killings unlike much of the family maureen does not claim ivan miller is innocent but in interviews she appears to be firmly in denial and in emotional turmoil from learning what the man she once adored had turned out to be such was the power of ivan's spell it should also be noted that wally is one of the millet brothers who is sometimes alleged to have partaken in some of ivan's crimes uh-oh uh oh finally there is so he said allegedly there so i guess he didn't go down for it and it was 30 years ago not early 90s so yeah okay i get the feeling the family's kind of going to get away with this and ivan's going to be the only one who goes to jail kind of disappointingly finally there is the wife of ivan's younger brother bill named caroline dude what are you up to while there is absolutely no evidence or substantial claim that ivan had an affair with caroline millet again well i mean pretty strong correlation she has his surname should have an affair with him uh he she herself claimed that her ivan and her were on extremely intimate terms i think there's very little air it to be interpreted there extremely intimate implies just one thing doesn't it i mean they would definitely have an affair no okay best friends if you like oh extremely intimate is like i i have close friends i don't say i'm extremely intimate with them that would probably imply that i'm having an affair with them it's just i don't know i would i definitely i don't know maybe i'm just misinterpreting those words but it's not how i would use them and caroline miller despite being of no blood relation to ivan became one of his most strident and outspoken advocates after his conviction she was foremost among the family a media spokesperson caroline alleges that the possessions found in the millet households were not confirmed to have belonged to the victims and has claimed in interviews that they may have been a police plant oh come on we already discussed this nonsense both she and bill millet were frequent visitors to ivan while he was in prison and caroline also spoke right wait who was bill was that her husband yes sorry that was her husband uh were frequent visitors to ivan while he was in prison and caroline also spoke regularly to ivan on the phone at the very least this is a testament to ivan's magnetism which inspired blind devoted loyalty and perhaps one might even go as far as to opine an infatuation with him yeah i mean he does seem to be this like classic cult-leadery serial killer like super charming dude that even when he's like yeah no he's definitely guilty of murdering several people oh but he's so nice i mean ted bundy's the example people often quote right people were still like ted bunny i've been look at him he's so handsome and charming i don't know if ted bundy got married in prison but he probably could they killed him right they murdered him murdered him they executed him but he could have gone he could have got married in prison people do it's crazy i don't understand it's like what's going on given the amount of one-way wife swapping that might one-way wife swapping i like that term that seemed to be going on it certainly is legitimate to ask a few questions rape and marriage it's 1971 the long party of the swinging 60s was over and the greasy hair of the dog-laced hangover of the 1970s had begun ivan had been several months out of prison then on february the 12th his younger sister margaret age 16 was killed in a head-on collision with another vehicle the car she was in had been driven by her brother wally who survived two weeks later a woman named karen roland aged 20 and five months pregnant went missing three months later her body was found in the fair barn pine plantation near canberra she had been raped and strangled she was last seen talking to a person in a car who had pulled up alongside her in the suburb of campbell after her own car and ran out of petrol cops and criminologists strongly suspect that ivan miller may have been responsible for her death given his later ammo and the fact that he was operating in this area at the time he also reportedly had no alibi but this has never been proven conclusively in a court of law some have also theorized that the death of ivan's sister had triggered his homicidal behavior it's just when you think this couldn't get any worse he murders a pregnant lady brilliant also in 1971 ian heyman then aged 15 claims he was hitchhiking home to wollongong when he was picked up by two men in an oopt they began inquiring about his family and their knowledge of his movements the men took the turn off towards canberra rather than going on to wollongong an argument broke out between heyman and the men over whether anyone was truly expecting him at home finally the two men threw the boy out of the car heyman crossed the road to hitch another ride the two men parked 100 meters away and watched him luckily heyman got into another car and was driven home heyman identified one man as ivan millet but he refuses to identify the second man for legal reasons it's unknown whether this account is true or whether heyman is just a fantasist the whole legal reasons thing for not identifying the other man is like what legal reasons could that possibly be you're at the police station and why could you identify one and not the other seemed that's uh and also the guy didn't seem to work with a partner at all in any of the other cases that we know about so i'm leaning on that guy being a bit of a fantasist to be honest what's more certain is the following story also from 1971 on april the 9th margaret patterson and her friend greta whom she met four months earlier in a mental institution where they were both being treated for depression had decided to hitchhike from liverpool in southwest sydney to melbourne they are confirmed to have been picked up by ivan millard the two women both aged 18 alleged the millet drove them to the woods and threatened them at knife points miller proceeded to allegedly rape margaret patterson from there millet took them to a service station near goulburn there the women let slip to other customers what had happened and they proceeded to surround ivan miller's car in an angry mob that seems wait why didn't he kill them was this before he got into his killing because you've got to be in like they let slip what had happened if i was in a petrol station in these ladies situation in these women's situation i'd be like uh i'm not letting anything slip i have like my friend was raped and he's probably gonna murder us could someone please help it's not letting something slip it's just like cool crying for help of course what else would you do he was arrested and charged while awaiting trial miller faked his own death and fled to new zealand whoa he was discovered and re-arrested in 1974. at the trial margaret changed her story and claimed that she had given ivan consent greta none too impressed being abducted stuck to the original version of events wow this is crazy what is the motivation here the fact that they were recent releases from a psychiatric ward prejudiced the court furthermore ivan millett's lawyer john marsden a gay man who had frequented a club the night before and had seen the two women there outed them as lesbians to the court this further prejudiced the 1970s court against the witnesses the case was thrown out and ivan walked i was trying to work out what the prejudice was because i'm like well he raped them it's not although one of them later said she consented which seems very strange but that doesn't like mean they're lying it just means he raped them they don't have like but then i realize it's the 1970s and uh yeah being gay back then was uh yeah that could prejudice accord that was 50 years ago pretty crazy afterward ivan put his nose to the grindstone and got a although maybe i don't know does that i don't want i feel like people are writing to me like simon they're still prejudiced today and it's like i know there's prejudice but uh there was more of it in the 1970s afterward ivan put his nose the grindstone and got a job as a truck driver this provided him with a plausible excuse for traveling all over the state in october 1975 ivan millett met karen duck then age 16 and six months pregnant now that was nearly 31 like father like son i guess after a year of dating the two moved in together in early 1977 with karen's illegitimate child jason after an allegedly rocky relationship of ups and downs still shacked up with a psychopath quite a surprise there the two married seven years later in february 1984. they stayed together for three more years until early 1987 when karen walked out alleging domestic abuse it would also seem that millet was allegedly a child support dodger and he was chased for the money and again allegedly in 1988 firebombed the garage of karen's parents as a warning to let the matter drop uh holy sh get the police in there a small point of interest is that while in prison for the backpacker murders ivan claimed to have only gone to balango state forest once with his brother alex to do some shooting karen claims that while they were married ivan took her and jason to balango state forest no less than four times he's been up to some murdering in that state forest hasn't he without his brother like maybe they went once together and then the other three times it's like yeah yeah i'm gonna go shoot him with my brother and really you're off doing some murder murder as a coping strategy the dates of ivan's relationship with karen are fairly important they met in 1975 had many fights dotting their history until 1987 when karen walked out for good the cops who led the investigation into malat have theorized that he was a control obsessed killer whenever relationships in his life were in turmoil he would kill in order to calm himself down every date during his relationship with karen where milat was implicated in a disappearance or a murder of a hitchhiker ivan appears to have been odds with his former wife then after they separated in 1987 the divorce gradually became final two years later the seven canonical backpacker killings began the final murders of clark and walters in april 1992 happened two months before melissa met another serious girlfriend chad linda hughes and settled down again these i mean we got the canonical seven but this dude murdered way more people right i mean come on during the manhunt for the then unknown balanglo killer in 1993 the police received a tip from two women with legally enforced pseudonyms mary and teresa they claimed to have been abducted by a man while hitchhiking back to canberra in 1997 when they were both 18. the man pulled off the highway insubalangla telling the women it was a shortcut and later pulled onto a dirt road saying he forgot to use the toilet back at the service station it's at this point that he made a grab mary mary punched him she and theresa ran into the forest and hid they lay on the ground for hours until the man gave up looking for them and left back in 1993 the two women independently looked at a photo loan up line up and marked out both ivan millett and his younger brother richard none of this however could be used in court and the attempted rape remains a cold case why can none of that be used in court what i don't get it the police are doing all this work they line up all these people are like yeah yeah it was them in a lineup with i assume other innocent people because that's how a lineup works right and then it's like well why did the police will do this work for the course to be like yeah we can't use that in court what am i missing why not come on leanne goodall was last seen on the 30th of december 1978 leaving the star hotel in newcastle new south wales she then disappeared without a trace robin hickey was last seen standing at a bus stop on the pacific highway at 7 15 pm on the 7th of april 1979. two weeks later amanda robinson 14 disappeared while she was walking along lake road in swansea annette briefer 18 disappeared while she was hitchhiking on the pacific highway near asquith on january 10 1980. nurses gillian jameson and deborah balkan both aged 20 were last seen leaving a man fitting ivan mallett's just millet's description at the tollgate hotel in sydney on the july the 12th 1980. at 9 15 pm they called their flatmates telling them they'd be attending a party in wollongong and to call their work and tell them they'd be too sick to work over the following days it's a hell of a party i'm they're not a party ivan murlat had periodically been implicated by the police in all these disappearances colin powell a backpacker from the uk claims to have been picked up by ivan millet driven off the highway and then threatened with the hammer before escaping to another vehicle in 1982. powell never reported the incident to police as he felt no clear crime had been committed um except for being threatened with a hammer and i guess kidnapping when he doesn't take you where you want to go or like where he said he was going to go given the lateness of his revelations to australian media only in the last few years it's possible that the man is a fantasist more solid is the case of peter lecher age 18 who disappeared after hitchhiking to bathurst from sydney on november 13 1987. his body was found dumped and covered with branches in the gentleman state forest on january 21 1988. he had been stabbed multiple times in the back and shot five times in the head while his jumper had been used to blindfold him cigarette butts and a whiskey bottle were found at the scene mill out whose wife had left him was working in the genolan state forest at the time it was him that absolutely fits his mo to a t diane penicio a married woman aged 29 with the young toddler disappeared from the lake george hotel on september 6 1991 while the canonical backpacker murders were ongoing a body was found in talaganda state forest on november 13th lying face down covered in branches she had been stabbed in the spine the arrangement of a clothes suggested sexual assault a bottle and a can of beer were found at the scene now the final two cases coincide with ivan millet's rampage following the breakdown of his marriage the murders strongly fit mellott's modus operandi the lead investigator on malad clive small states that these two killings were almost certainly the work of millet the other disappearances are more tenuous in their connection to milad and while some of them fit millet's mo and the area of operations police also strongly suspect there was another predator operating in the area at the time of these disappearances that man if he exists has never been caught at most miller's body count increases from the canonical 7 to 16 people counting karen roland from 1971 in addition to several attempted abductions a rape and attempted rapes at the very least however police are convinced that miller's milan's body count extends to nine or ten people if what it's worth boris millett suspects that the true number is roughly double the canonical number of victims yeah but also these are just kind of the people that we know about there's probably plenty of bodies that have never been discovered and these are almost all of them it's like well not all of them but people escaped or it was early on before he was like murdering everybody and stuff like that there's got to be lots of other bodies you can't just assume that there aren't ones we haven't found at all or have no leads on whatsoever surely i would always i feel like that would be the majority but maybe that's just me what did the family know [Music] which brings us back to ivan millett's picturesque little family the ivan's father step and died in 1983 and whatever he thought of ibn's criminal have you up to that point the man took it to his grave ivan's mother margaret died in 2001 long after ivan was locked up in prison she reportedly had hoped to have seen ivan freed before she died mate he's gone to prison for multiple murders he's not getting out of prison margaret milat also frequently visited ivan in prison according to a younger brother george miller she allegedly told ivan that she was dying and even asked if ivan did the murders if the story is to be believed ivan admitted his guilt then and there conversely numerous possessions of the victims including one of paul onions shirts were found in his mother's house implying the type and had simply gifted a man's shirt to his mother and she'd kept it for four years or else she was somewhat aware of what he was up to before his arrest in her defense she did not appear to be the brightest of sparks when claiming ivan's innocence she is one quoted as saying i did all the clothes washing for these boys and never once did i see any blood brilliant argument 5 stars 10 out of 10 there for it's worth according to boris millet he says the family was vaguely aware that ivan was doing terrible things prior to his arrest but the family's culture of tight-lipped behavior prevented any of them including his own mother from inquiring any further this claim seems to be contradicted by one tiny coincidence by his own account to erase his shame for his brother's deeds boris changed his surname from milad and he did it one month before ivan's arrest in 1994 oh i mean that's not a crime alike is not reporting crimes that you know about a crime i don't think so right i mean that would be a pretty heavy like burden to put on a population it is like yeah you know about a crime that you have to tell the police i feel as you you morally probably should um maybe i don't know it seems like that's a pretty intense thing to put upon people how do i not know if that's a crime on heart also but we should learn from the rules of casual christmas don't tell people about your crimes then you'd have to worry about it and this dude's changing his name which definitely implies that he knew about crimes and that they would be pretty bad like if you have to change your name you're like well that person is going to get famous or infamous for the severity of their crimes when asked in an interview what he felt when ivan was caught boris replied relief that this wouldn't go on anymore one of this is conclusive it is mildly suspect indeed still more suspicious a comment attributed to richard millet ivan's little brother when he was in a pub shortly after the discovery of the skeletons of everest and gibson in october 1993. visibly drunk richard is rumored to have said they haven't found those germans yet indeed the bones of the three german tourists would not be found until the following month if this account is to be believed ivan had the very least told his brother of his crimes i break in those rules richard is also the leading suspect other than ivan for having participated in the balanglo murders another suspicious event happened in 1992 shortly after the discovery of the of british backpackers caroline clark and joanne walters alex millat an older brother went to the police and allegedly gave a misleading report claiming that he had seen two cars pass him with women resembling the victims one in each car they were gagged and bound and the cars were driven by two men apparently he had seen all this in the split second it'd have taken them to pass by his own vehicle it's possible alex was trying to get his family out ahead of police suspicion by reporting on it first what is also intriguing is that alex describes the mode of abduction as two men and two cars instead of one man acting alone at the time the police raid alex was in the possession of one of the backpacks of the victims he died in 2018. all i mean these guys are just like bad at trying to cover up crimes and uh yeah well the main guy went to prison these guys don't go to prison today it's kind of disappointing he just died in 2018 free meanwhile john marsden the lawyer who got ivan miller off the rape charge in 1974 and whom iron ivan had fired as defence counsel for suggesting an insanity plea in 1994 made a deathbed confession back in 2006. marsden claimed that ivan's sister surely swore nee milat had helped in two of the killings additionally shirley was living with ivan at the time of his arrest in the house where most of the trophies were found in shirley's own room police found the sleeping bag of deborah everest shirley also allegedly hid a pistol from the police during the raid and later told her brother wally to get rid of it finally in a bizarre twist shirley was rumored to have had an incestuous relationship with ivan a claim that has been allegedly acknowledged by at least two members of the miller family shirley died in 2003. all of this is crazy the incestuous relationship crazy what's most crazy it's like why i can't believe we haven't talked about it yet but keeping all the [ __ ] like ivan goes out killing people and then he's like hey sister shirley i got you a sleeping bag it's slightly used and she holds on to it for all of these years i mean what are you up to you're a terrible criminal knowing or helping [Music] it's the official position of the investigator the millet case that yes the family were aware of ivan's actions it seems incredibly likely and no ivan did not have any accomplices and acted alone indeed it would seem that ivan had the rap sheet best fitting the profile of a serial killer on the flip side ivan was convicted of the blanglo murders on fairly circumstantial evidence they never really found any matching fingerprints or matching dna at the site it was really the attack on paul onions that clinched ivan's arrest and conviction failing to find enough evidence to charge any other family member for partaking in the murders naturally the official position of the police would be that ivan acted alone but some commentators including the victim's families have speculated that the police are less stringent in that opinion in private allegedly allegedly and i don't even know it's all very extremely like maybe for participation and in my opinion yeah yeah they knew they knew for what it's worth boris miller says that the prime suspects for collaboration in ivan's murders brothers richard wally bill and alex millet did not have it in them to be cruel or kill anybody as for the role of shirley square at the time of writing boris has yet to comment while it is possible that boris is loyally covering for his family members who did not sleep with his ex-wife while focusing his rage on ivan it's also possible that boris was simply kept out of the loop around the particulars of the murders quite smart given you know is that probably don't tell the guy whose wife you're having an affair with about your crimes i mean we mentioned like 18 times in today's episode don't tell people about your crimes especially don't tell people who hate you he had already been estranged from ivan for decades by the time the blanglo murders occurred only one extreme reaction a panic attack when acted when asked in 2019 about how the murder victims died seemed to indicate any deeper knowledge and that could quite simply have been a fear of overwhelming grief for the victims or a fear of that people think you have something to do with it during ivan millett's trial in 1996 his new defense lawyer surprisingly pointed the finger at richard millat for being responsible for the murders the defense lawyer alleged that paul onions mistook ivan for richard however richard aliwize for the times of the balango abductions he was either at work or with a large number of family members not the latter counts for much since so many of them seem to be the most tremendously tight-lipped pack of liars they seem to be more than willing to fake an alibi what is intriguing about this incident is that ivan at the time allegedly claimed that he was happy with the defense lawyer's submissions which means on some level ivan was perfectly happy to screw over his brother if it meant that he got off scot-free only later to dive and claim that he was shocked that his own lawyer made that argument somehow unbeknownst to him ah look ivan is a piece of what a surprise further still in an infamous 60 minute interview richard millat was asked how trophies from the murders came to wind up in his garden shed richard clammed up as was his custom and and fixed the interviewer with a stony menacing stare his answers were evasive this convinced many watching at the time that richard and maybe other family members had participated in the murders however richard may just have been clumsily covering for ivan judge david hunt said on sentencing ivan that it was inevitable he was not alone in the killings indeed much of the initial investigation focused on finding two or more men this was for several reasons one it was not easy for one man to subdue two people at once especially in the case of the german couple where the boyfriend gabor was six foot one and quite strong boris mellott himself offers a counter argument to that must the ua mcgunner to person and tell them on pain of death to tie the other up two the victims were both murdered in different ways and often buried separately 50 to 100 meters apart implying two people's handiwork at play three at each killing site the murderer or murderers seem to have thrown a bit of a party with multiple kinds of booze bullets and cigarettes four ballistics expert gerard dutton had claimed that the target practice sessions may be consistent with two or more people firing five while the millap brothers may have alibis for the time of the attacks assuming they weren't fabricated if ivan held the victims at the killing sites for long enough his brothers could have joined them in the actual murders or in the cleanup and indeed ivan could have held the victims in the forest for a day or more after their abductions before killing them such was the state of decomposition of all the victims that forensics teams could hardly pin the time of death to the hour or even a specific day that is a lot of time for an accomplice to skate around an alibi and six if ian heyman's account is to be believed then it was two men not one who tried to abduct him back in 1971 implying that sometimes ivan millett had a ride-along partner now i'm twisted around it again like i mean this is pretty strong it's all like yeah maybe but i was like yay i think he could have pulled it off himself so whether ivan miller attacked it alone and his family did not know anything until after his arrest or the family knew all about his deeds beforehand but did not partake or whether his brothers actively participated in a sick kind of boy's day layout deliverance style it really is up to the listener to decide yeah there's this compelling stuff every there's compelling stuff in all directions on this one nothing except ivan miller's slaying of the canonical seven has ever been conclusively proven in a court of law in conclusion the whole thing was a stitch up by the sydney olympic committee and the new south wales police hashtag illuminati confirmed [Music] a whimpering bit of closure the more i look into this family the greater the sinking feeling i have in the pit of my stomach from psychopaths to rapes to murders to affairs to incest to potential accomplices and accessories to murder the case is intriguing but there is a difference between the road kill fascination of true crime and poking around in a carcass with a stick for three days making careful notes on every maggot you find this is an emotion writ large across the entire nation of australia whenever ivan millet hits the news cycle again the body counts may not be particularly high as far as serial killers are concerned but the story and its savagery has haunted australia for nearly 30 years yeah i mean this has been a long episode but back at the beginning the details of the killings some disturbing the case is worsened by the fact that ivan miller smirking for decades as he was dragged in chains from prison cell to prison cell never publicly admitted his guilt the families of the victims can never be 100 certain that the man who stole their loved ones from them actually died behind bars or that some of his accomplices actually walked free ivan millet robbed the families of the victims and the nation of australia of that kind of closure more perversely ivan miller condemned his fanatically loyal family to forever sholden the burden of denying his guilt before the world much to their utmost universal condemnation only one family member seems to have fully escaped this fate older brother boris changed his surname back to millet in the years following ivan's imprisonment he's effectively owning the fact that he is a millet but he had nothing to do with his brother's crimes and openly condemns them and he sympathizes with the victims nevertheless boris seems damaged by the many ways in which his brother has ruined his life it's like being married to hitler's daughter boris once said and well that pretty much sums it up the lead investigator clive small did manage to ring one final tiny bit of closure out of the case before ivan died clyde visited millet in prison ivan was angry why did you accuse my sister of aiding the killings he said in reference to shirley schwa clive small replied i didn't i know you acted alone to which miller shouted yes so why are you accusing my sister then mullet's expression slowly changed to shock and self-disbelief for once he wasn't smirking this was as close to a confession as the police ever got and i think i think that was probably a bit of honesty from him i'm kinda i kind of think he acted alone my conclusions just mine in my opinion allegedly he acted alone his family knew was up to some dodgy [ __ ] more family members knew some family members knew more than others but i don't think anywhere necessarily involved in the crimes themselves like even the forensic guy he said yeah it may look as if the bodies were shot by multiple people but it's a may it's not like definitely dismembered appendices bill millett's daughter deborah miller surname changed to muleman gave birth to a son named matthew in 1992. he was the great nephew of ivan millat as the boy reached adolescence his moomed mood seemed to darken and he became obsessed with death and the millet family history this intensified to the point that matthew changed his surname to millet at the age of 14 dude that's like some creepy it's like why are you changing your surname to yeah manson brilliant what's your service hitler yeah i thought hitler would be a good one to go for get into therapy court evidence seems to indicate that matthew was larping at being a hard man and a member of a local criminal dynasty to impress his schoolmates that is so sad mate on november 20th 2010 matthew millat and his accomplice cohen klein lured their friend david octolani to the victim's birthday in the balango state forest and murdered him with an axe what the [ __ ] no what the [ __ ] this went from like sad kid need doesn't have a life doesn't have anything going from him so he's like he clings on to like this crazy dark legacy of his horrible family to oh no he's out he actually murdered someone what the come on they recorded the murder on a phone well i mean great so they're gonna go to prison forever i suppose david can be heard begging for his life well i don't want to know man i don't want to know i'm just going to read that silently uh he begs for his life they shout abuse at him and yeah the okay we don't need li i read the details they're too much um the guys murdered on there and they record it no one wants to see that and if you do check yourself but matthew milotz lacked his great uncle's talent for avoiding detection he was arrested two days after the murder good in 2002 12 he was sentenced to 43 years in prison 30 years without parole being only 18 at the time of the murder the earliest matthew mellow will get out is 2042. such a senseless copycat killing and the contortion of the mind of a young man is the final legacy of ivan millet's reign of terror well that was a horrible horrible ending to today's story um i know these i don't expect happy endings but that was like a curveball of like of extra horror thanks david this has been an episode of casual criminals thank you so much for watching if you enjoyed it and you're listening to this in its podcast form please do me a big favor leave me a good review five stars preferred but uh you know just be honest be like it's a bit [ __ ] isn't it simon stop talking and just read the bloody script then uh weaker reviews are of course you know not preferred but yeah leave me a review if you feel like it it helps get this podcast in front of more people which is fantastic if you're watching on youtube there is a like button below a subscribe button below you can smash those uh and yeah that's about it from me thank you for uh for being here for the episode and i'll see you next time [Music]

Channel: The Casual Criminalist

Views: 665,394

Keywords: true crime

Id: iz2U5ALVwDo

Length: 74min 26sec (4466 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 19 2021