ITN Exclusive: Margaret Thatcher's Dramatic First Interview After Being Ousted From Power (1991)

hello [Music] [Applause] I hope you have some thank you very much thank you very much thank you Mr Satchel this is the first time you've spoken to British television since your resignation so I wonder because we haven't heard as it were your version of events and your side of the story you you've said in the past that you thought that what happened that what led to your departure was really because people took fright at the opinion polls isn't it really the case that what had happened was that your cabinet had in a sense begun to Desert you because they were worried about the way you were handling things like Europe and like the poltex and wasn't that the real reason why things turned out the way they did no I don't think it was and I would say so if I thought it was there had been some controversy about the community charge but everyone agreed it was based upon the right principles the right principles but we just got it up too high and that would have been corrected by putting in more tax for bigger proportion of taxpayers money no I think it genuinely was what I said that certainly there's some on the back benches who are getting very alarmed at the opinion polls but I think we'd perhaps had fewer people who this time had had experience of what happened before and they they demonstrated that in that they didn't give one a clear run on the first ballot that was one thing I thought it would come all right but when I returned I thought I simply must speak the members of my cabinet one or two other senior ministers and I'm not going to say who said what but they weren't a hundred percent um and they were very concerned although they said most of them not all that they would certainly support me there was just a feeling that I thought well if we get through we'll probably gets through but the things will go on being divided with this kind of um little bit of uncertainty I had just better decide because it should have come clear on the first ballot can you just I think that decision was right may I say so I think that decision was right although the letters I had um we had over 160 000. in the end were marvelous they didn't understand and they contested what happened because they said we voted for you in a general election and we haven't been asked nevertheless that was not the position one was faced with I was faced with a position where I only got 204 votes and it really should have been more they said I should have been at home during that period I was in Paris signing the treaty we had worked for eign and certainly those were there will quite forget now what we saw on that occasion was almost you come bursting out of that Embassy door to the waiting microphones and you very quickly said that you were going to stand for the second ballot but I wonder if you could tell us actually how it was because moments before that you were waiting upstairs weren't you for a phone call we were and I couldn't go after the evening's engagement until we'd had it and I was told the results immediately I said but this means a second ballot so we had not in fact got enough but then it seemed to not seem to me at that stage it would be difficult uh to get uh three or four more people to vote with us on the second ballot and um although it was not very easy to go to a second ballot it didn't seem to be very difficult uh something happened while I was away that night there were various meetings all over the place I think in London I couldn't obviously be here and when I got back the next morning it still seemed to me that I would have a good chance but during the day uh I got on with starting to get the confidence motion ready and then thought I simply must see the cabinets and some other people and it was just very strange have you seen a situation slip away from you I'm a politician I know I can feel it I can sense it and when um some people whom I expected to be absolutely a staunch had very different views said look I will support you but I don't think that um that it is a foregone conclusion then all right no General can fight without a really good army behind and I Linda guy indicated it was the view that I took I'm still sure it was the right one under those circumstances when did you really first sense that the support had drained away to the extent that you had to reach that decision was it in in the morning when you came back no it was in the evening after I had come back because you had a big meeting of colleagues over lunch didn't you at number 10. yes so that was perfectly all right Perfect all right and staunch what some suggestions at that that all might not be well I don't think people told you then about the division of numbers in the cabinet but I think there was more than a hint there wasn't there that things might not be quite going your way to say the very least well I came back and I I saw quite a lot and I learned a good deal from that and then the advice that I had was that things were moving and changing in the house and no I I was not going to cling I either carried on with full Authority I knew I had the authority of the people but I wasn't going to carry on without the authority of my party I did not have enough I had um I had a majority I had a majority on the first ballot I had a majority but I did not have a sufficient majority and it would not have have been enough to go on the divisions would have gone on that would have absorbed them that is not good at that stage of a parliament for anyone I still believe that the decision was right and so after that I'm confessed I went there it's about half past eight and I simply said look I have got to get back to number 10 to finish making up that speech you realize I have got emotional Center tomorrow and I'm going in and I'm going to have a battle but of course uh just earlier today so I got back and I think it was about ten past one when um I had just finished the speech and I said that I would make up my mind finally the following morning I'd sleep on it and Dennis and I discussed it and um you know the result I'm still convinced it was the right decision what went wrong was that we did not get a big enough majority on the first ballot and there's nothing I could do to cure that that was the thing I couldn't get over they said to me as I went through but you haven't been to ask us to vote for you other people have and I thought Goodness Me do I after 11 and a half years have to go and ask personally for a vote I remember previous leadership elections but there you are they thought that I did and I thought that um that was not necessarily the right way to do it because in the afternoon confidence or they hadn't so it fell away very rapidly uh early evening and because of the first ballot not being sufficient I took the decision in the end when you had to come to that decision after you'd seen the members of the cabinet individually and one or two one understands that said Point Blank that they would resign if you carried on that only underlines what you've been saying with such force that you couldn't go on but I don't think anyone said to him and no one said to me no one said to me they would resign if I carried on no one that's interesting because it is reported that at least one one said to me they would resign if I can I didn't see them all I didn't see them all I think I saw about 11 or 12 and one or two other people but no one said to me not one but the crucial thing is that you then went back to number 10 you had a conversation with certain Etc Dennis DT as he's always known he has always been an absolutely staunch defender of you of course as any husband would be but he's been very valuable to you well he's he's he's he's absolutely marvelous and I think he was a bit cut up too that we didn't get more but if he did we didn't get enough then um he he thought it was better to resign so he was supportive in your decision there he didn't try to talk you out of it no he realized the political situation too you must have full authority of your own party to do to do the decisive things which I have always done too many people were fearful of the opinion polls and um so that was the way it went and then the following morning of course you had I suppose what must have been brought up early um and things hadn't changed so I decided to take the course of action which I did then I went into the house well could I just first of all ask you to recall what must have been a very difficult meeting of the cabinet yes of course it was of course it was you don't take a decision like that without it being difficult without heartbreak heartbreak there may have beamed it was the right decision but you had to get through it bernardingham in his Memoirs has said that it was a traumatic experience those are his words yes it was and it would have been very strange if it hadn't been but we got through it in fact you broke down we got to the house you broke down during that cabinet didn't you yes but I carried on and then the house by that time I was back fighting fit as you saw just before that though the image that people will perhaps remember you said the cabinet was extremely difficult then you had to come out into Downing Street and you had to face the cameras in effect you had to face the world [Music] you had to come and make what was perhaps the statement of your life and then I see that you know we notice now that it's affecting you now and it must have been yeah you must take to my voice now it's not affecting my voice you're thinking back to traumatic things um but I managed to get through them I managed to get through the television I managed to get to the cabinet again because there was something else to do I had to um uh get on to people and I must say this but Douglas heard and John Major said if you wish to go on we will propose you and second you again and and that was marvelous that was marvelous and then one had to get to a cabinet and one or two people wanted to leave because they too of course wanted to to make provision for their own uh for their own candidature quite right quite right but by that time I had other things to do and so I got on with them the almost Final Act if you like of the drama and it was a drama of your resignation that speech you gave to the house now you've said how difficult it was going through all the run-up talking to the cabinet and all of that the emotional strain that had obviously and we've seen put you through what about the business of going to the house and making that resignation speech ing it always isn't a full house always whether it's at question time or an ordinary down extraordinary day because the house was packed and early on in the speech I got a little frog in my throat which you sometimes do and I knew I had to talk through it until I got some here here so that I could have a glass of water and then all of a sudden you start to get interruptions and so you go from a prepared script and it's spontaneous you answer the questions that come and that just takes you out of yourself completely you're so concerned with the debate and the the quick thinking on your feet of the right reply and then we got on to the more interesting parts of the speech let me say if ever you're speaking the economy is the most difficult thing to speak about it tends to be in a sort of jargon and however much you try to get rid of the jargon you can't uh you always can speak about the state of Industry because that's human and living but the actual public expenditure monetary policy public sector Bond requirement is it is difficult and you have to you get that fairly fairly near the beginning so you get to it and then you get on to things which live like industry and commerce uh and also some of your your foreign policy and social services and so on uh and it did just take off I knew it was taking off I knew when we got into debate it would be all right but it just did do you remember the moment yeah do you remember the moment when Dennis Skinner intervened yes yes he is a marvelous parliamentarian and no one has been better at interjections than Dennis Skinner uh and he made a joke that you're going to be governor of the Central Bank in Europe and he said lots of money lots of money you know he would say that and your reply what a good idea it just did a thought I'm enjoying it was fun beginning to enjoy I'm getting to enjoy it yes were you yes because we got on to him uh yes it's it it's it's something which takes you out of yourself the way to get out of yourself is to have such strong things to do immediately that requires all your concentration all your thought all your effort it's it's and then you've forgotten what what is bothering you because you've got something to do immediately and for most of my my political life that has been so whatever the things that that really that really were deeply deeply concerning to me personally one had to get on with something else and and that's how you just get through let me ask you if I may though about thatcherism it's uh a word that's much banded about and sometimes you've said well really what it means because there was the principles of it were invented long before Mrs Thatcher yes they were but to other people to some other people thatcherism means something negative it means I think that they see it as a time of of personal greed of time when people were just out for themselves and that's the sort of image that they have of ceterism but absolute nonsense don't most people want to work hard to do better by their own families to have a better house better holidays better furniture isn't that a worthwhile thing wouldn't life be very much better if more people took responsibility for their families and for building their own future and building their own security and when they do that and have a little bit over to help people less fortunate than themselves isn't that a good thing and aren't we trying to get the third world out of the poverty it's in by building up its Industries and having some investment to go and help them with John Wesley answered the question you've just put do not impute to money The Faults of human nature it's not the money it's not the wealth you create it's what you do with it and most people do want a better standard of living many many people use their money to to do more for the Arts to see more to enjoy more of the great artistic Works whether it be music whether it be art look at the Fantastic voluntary effort in this country it's enormous no those look great isn't it absurd trade unions mostly argue for higher wages they argue for bigger differentials but they then coming and saying greed so some people are greedy but people who want a better standard of living a better way of life without children or not they are highly moral they're highly valued citizens and they're usually those people who look after their houses and their families look after their neighborhoods join in doing things their neighborhood community spirit this is the real satirism isn't that always the danger that people might be seeing you still as trying to second-guess the prime minister well I hope they won't I hope they won't I did all my own first guessing for 15 years of what was right to do and it wasn't guessing so going back to the right principles of passionate belief and uh you asked me recently what things I remember I recall one thing very well in 1980 One Finance Minister of another part of the world where'd you really rather believed in what I was doing but hadn't seen it put into practice before and saying to me it look you're having difficulty we're watching you very carefully we're watching Britain very carefully that's good they always please me when they're watching Britain because if you can roll back the frontiers of socialism and in Britain roll forward the frontiers of freedom other people will follow you what's an extraordinary thing to say I knew I must keep going my goodness me I took a pounding but we did we did change Trade union law we did say to a company look if you're if you're going broke this is because you haven't got it right and we're not going to pull taxpayers money and to save you when in fact if there's any taxpayers money ought to be going to Bringing to bursts and new Industries and for the first time they had to take the consequences of their own action what else is democracy and responsibility all about we did and we got people enthusiastic about Enterprise do you know we've had more young people starting up on their own than ever before it is a new spirit that's the essence to get the economy right you have to understand human nature there is a new spirit and we did get it right and I'm not going to say it go just a final point on the whole business of the way your Premiership ended I think you've said that that no prime minister really ought to have to leave in those circumstances of course the counter argument is it's almost like that old phrase about be you never so high the law is above you it's almost a sense isn't it in which you say be you never so high as prime minister but you may be out of Downing Street by tonight and prime ministers ought to know that oh if you're out for what I call constitutional reasons of course we were out for the reasons of the rules made by the conservative party for leaders in opposition and that's very different that's very different uh the rules are still there are there not rules which apply to the labor party or to any other party this was the first time it had happened and uh it happened it happened I took the right decision I am now free to live another life a very practical use both to the people of this country and internationally I have a passion for Britain for the spirit of the people for their character it's done wonders for the world in the past it can still do wonders for the world of the future and what is your foundation going to do it is going to embody all of those things which I've explained and believed in how to roll forward the frontiers of Freedom how to bring it about educating people about what it is all about giving practical help to the people in Eastern Europe who are trying to do it they will want to know how to learn we can give them scholarships they can come over here we can get people to go over there to advise them we can hold conferences where they all get together and learn from one another and perpetuate the ideals I've also been very active in uh the environment and there's a good deal of work to do there on a scientific basis that is partly education was partly practical it's enlarging the frontage of Freedom it's bringing more and more of the world to democracy on the basis of what we in Britain have done it's taking our leadership to others they're coming I have telephone calls how can we do it one can't give anything likes the amount of money which governments can give the one knows people who you give them a helping hand you put them in the way of Grants or scholarships you teach them how to do it most of the changes in the world are brought about by a few people who believe things and don't give up the saccharovs the soldier knit sins knew what was needed the Next Generation we have to teach how and the young people have never been made servile or Passive by the communist system the older people have when I spoke to the young people in Moscow and then they're such a right to a man and woman isn't it marvelous but they already raring to go and we must help them with the how of it the spirit of Enterprise the spirit the character that is Britain was such a marvelous people we've done so much for Europe we've done so much we've taken to the far-flung corners of the world a legal system our common law one of the best in the world sound uncorrupt Administration of the spirit of enterprise America practice at the other side the best you learn from us this we must have a foundation to make certain we have a center so which it can continue that is what I will do the best of Britain to the best of the world Margaret Thatcher thank you very much indeed for talking to us my pleasure thank you

Channel: ITN Archive

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Id: L9H5nGDVfQ8

Length: 24min 24sec (1464 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 15 2022