Is the Tree of Life Practical? - BibleProject Podcast

[Music] all right hi Tim hi John we did a long conversation on the theme of trees in the Bible yep and we're gonna look at a few questions that came in and respond to them yeah absolutely he picked him out yes I did pick them out thank you everybody we got so many great questions from the audience so thank you and as always we can't you know pick everybody's but I try and notice patterns and repetitions and themes and then I kind of pick representatives from all the different themes so and is there usually as usual I've picked out like a dozen we usually only ever talk about like four we'll see how many we get yeah uh make it speed round today right I always ask you for speed around yeah and then you yeah yeah I'll try do you like instead of turtle speed round let's do not not rabbit or hare speed but like something else in between um I think they call that a brisk jog okay so just a quick recap is trees in the Bible uh we can't go over everything yeah but the stories about begins with this cosmic tree in the center of a garden yeah that's God's eternal life to eat from and then we just trace this theme of trees and next to that tree yeah is another tree which were forbidden to eat from that's right represents a choice yeah the is before God's human partners of whether they're going to do what's good in their eyes or choose wisdom which is to fear God and obey his commandments I think that's enough of a setup if you're not following along already with the theme so let's just jump into the questions yeah deal our first question is from Luke in Houston Texas like that Texas [Laughter] no offense Luke okay Luke you asked if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil places the option before humans of either receiving wisdom from God on his terms in his way or reinventing good and evil for themselves in a way that's beneficial for them but dangerous for others what does it mean practically to make that decision for yourself how do biblical characters navigate this question and how can we do that today yeah practical start by getting real yeah yeah this is you know as much as I enjoy tracing design patterns and how the biblical story works and hyperlynx and the imagery you know the purpose of a story about two characters named human and life facing this choice about good and bad before God this is you know this is the story's been speaking to every single reader of Genesis for millennia now for a very good reason it's it captures the dilemma of my everyday life in a very real way and so I think that's what you're after Luke like what are the ways that our own lives bring us to moments of the choice between two trees yeah what does that mean well and for the for the first audience which was ancient Israel I think isn't this very practically they had a covenant code mm-hmm by which to be God's people and they were called to obey it and by obeying that it's eating of of life yeah that's right and and there's a blessing that comes with obeying it so very practically for for them yeah not eating of the tree of my own way of life you know eating of the Tree of Life is just following the Covenant following the terms of the Covenant the terms of the cover let's write obedience yeah so you're drawing attention to is this story it's about all humans but it's an introduction to the Hebrew Bible which is going to tell the human story by telling one particular family's story yeah so if your nation Israelite and what does it mean to abstain from the truth no inconvenience yeah that's following the tour yeah and specifically following yeah the wisdom of God's commands revealed revealed in the Torah yes you could say that's a first first layer of application within the Bible itself right and another way this goes actually is through the design patterns of Genesis where by echoing the language of Genesis 3 you're going to see Abraham or Sarah or Isaac and Rebecca or Jacob but they're all going to come to these moments in their lives and they're gonna do what's good in their eyes in a way that as you say Luke benefits them but disadvantages other people so I think part of what the tree imagery is so potent is because it can become an icon for almost like any scenario where I find myself in where I have a choice to make and there we've talked about this before there are some choices that I make that I used with full ignorant and willful selfishness and usually it's only clear to me after the fact what I was doing but then there are also some scenarios where I actually just I make a choice and it turns out that it was just you know a poor choice and you didn't understand all the variables but I didn't know the variables and it was you know on an unintended harm done to myself and other people and that's just what it means to be a human yeah to me a huge light bulb moment for understanding the significance of how I face my own decisions at the tree was actually the wisdom literature conversation that we had in how to read the Bible series because in a way the book of Proverbs picks all of the language up from the Eden story remember this were lady wisdom says she is the tree of life come and eat from me and actually I was just thinking about this the other day here I want to show this to you because I think this is cool you remember how in Proverbs one through nine begins with all the speeches from Solomon to the seed of David and he is recommending the fear of the Lord is the very beginning of wisdom that's from my opening paragraph of the book so there's this speech about lady wisdom that starts in verse 20 of chapter 1 proverbs and there's wisdom she's like she's like a sales person roaming in the streets proverbs 1 verse 20 she's shouting lifting her voice in the square the streets are noisy she's lots of voices competing for your attention so I was almost like an image of the tree of knowing good and bad there's all these trees you could take good yeah and so she says verse 22 o simple ones how long will you love being simple-minded how long will you will fools hate knowledge and so look at verse 23 turn to my correction look I will pour out my spirit upon you hmm and Ivy says thoughts Oh what really yeah I'll pour my thoughts to you what so weird it's rock it's raw I will pour out my spirit on you hmm come come come now so this is wit God's wisdom yes personified metaphorically here as a woman that is now being identified with God's Spirit being given to someone and when people receive God's Spirit or God's wisdom as you go on into the poems in chapter 3 for example you realize by taking wisdom you are taking from the tree of life right so the idea of living by God's wisdom living empowered by God's Spirit is all of this is equated with choosing life and not doing what's good in my own eyes yeah so sometimes there are commands do not murder you know all right 10 commandments this is like what Jesus is after in the Sermon on the Mount so good job you haven't murdered anybody but what is the command what kind of character trait is that command trying to form in me and Jesus says it's about contempt it's addressing issues of contempt and pride and self aggrandizement that makes me look down and devalue other people and so all of a sudden words going really deep the issues of character and that's one way that the tree of knowing good and bad puts that kind of character choice before me mm-hmm so even though the story in the garden is about a divine command about a tree yeah you actually have to let the biblical story deepen the significance of what those choices are in my own life and even though for the ancient Israelite it was about obedience to this covenant command its covenant commands yeah underneath that is this this is a way for us to live yeah in God's wisdom yeah that's right and and so obedience to God's wisdom is really what at the heart of yeah of eating of the Tree of Life of life yeah with eating yeah that's right living by God's wisdom is taking hold of the tree of it so really a way to ask this question then is how do you practically live by God's wisdom yeah that's right what's practical it's a rich it's a rich image that leaves you with this awe and Wonder but then when you get practical it's like yeah how do I eat of that how do I live by God's wisdom yeah that's right and then I feel like you're in a conversation about keeping and how do you leave I got spirit yeah it becomes way more open-ended yeah right isn't interesting a story about a divine command about not to do one thing all of a sudden inverts and becomes an open-ended question about how do you how do you become a disciple of Jesus how do you live by the Spirit of God yeah how do you yeah it's keeping step with the spirit yeah these yes questions yeah by definition the answer those questions has to be discovered every day I can't make a rule for it the only the rule for Jesus is love God and love your neighbor right but but you can it seems like you can train your heart or you can create an environment in which you're ready to be obedient yeah when you when God tells you the thing to do yeah or at least be open to that yeah that's right that's at least something we can be practically having yeah no I think I think that this is the function that the laws of the Torah had in life of Israel this is a function that the laws of the tour I have as wisdom for followers of Jesus but then also you know like the Sermon on the Mount is an introduction to Messianic character formation yeah and if I let the values and begin to shape life habits that fit with the values of the ethic of Jesus I will find that I will begin to discern more easily the right choice when I have my moments in front of the tree the trees of choosing yeah do you like the most practical prayer is not my will but your will be done yeah that's right yeah figuring out how to practice that prayer and mindset I think so which that's yeah these are the things that I go to other people get advice so basically look what we're saying is this is a great question question the only response we can give is just pointing to the teachings of Jesus and like what does it mean to be faithful to him and live by his wisdom and there you go we're in the same boat as you Luke this next question is from Mitchell he's from Manhattan Kansas Kansas yeah good one Mitchell I had a question nice try Mitchell I had a question regarding Genesis 3 after Adam and Eve take of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they realize they're naked and they feel shame they cover themselves with leaves and it might be grasping at straws but what would it mean in the concept of trees for them to be covering themselves with the things that tree are covered with to cover the shame yeah yeah yeah yeah second is perceptive question it is love it yeah me too I actually just recently came across the first scholar I've ever seen draw attention to that little detail mm-hmm well I mean everybody notices they took from a tree and they covered themselves with the leaves of a tree of a tree fig tree actually it says so and that's an interesting narrative detail its iconic in like yes art history well it's hard to draw Adam and Eve without without the legalese so but you're asking is there some kind of symbolic connection there and I had to be honest I had never fully thought about it however once I had really worked out and we talked about in earlier in this podcast the idea of people as trees as a metaphorical scheme it did start to just sit there in the text like huh they dressed himself up as trees after they break a divine command regarding a tree tree yes so it was a scholar Crispin Fletcher Lewis who we interviewed urine or so ago he has done a lot of great work on the nature and origins of apocalyptic literature that we talked about we're gonna be working on a video about starting this week and it was a little essay he had on apocalyptic literature and second temple Judaism anyway he made a reference to this that I all of a sudden I was like yes I think that's exactly right there's two poems in The Book of Psalms that are making fun of idols and psalm 115 is one of them and you know it's just always good to read a psalm yeah psalm 115 not to us Yahweh not to us but to your name be kavod glory right what weightiness significance because of your loyal love and because of your faithfulness that's from exodus 34:6 why should the nations say where is their God this is you know this is Babylon mocking Israel so to speak you know we just trumped on your temple yeah your gods absent yeah where's Yahweh why didn't he protect you our God is in the skies he does what he purposes the idols on the other hand our silver and gold the work of human hands they have mouths they don't speak they have eyes they can't see they have ears they don't hear they have noses can't smell they have hands I can't feel their feet they cannot walk they can't even make sounds with their throats those who make them will become like them everyone who trusts in them yeah it goes on yeah serious trash talk yeah yeah maybe it lands a little less for people who didn't grow up with shrines and idols everywhere right I didn't so I have to imagine myself into another culture and for this to land for me so this line those who make them will become like them it's repeated in a couple of the places in the Hebrew Bible when is another Psalm and so the whole thing is saying listen there's real humans mm-hmm right for the image who are they exactly they are the image of God and image of God humans well they have mouths and they talk they have ear it's the whole list yeah they have functioning yeah totally so it's like okay you tell me there's the real images of God and then there's the images that the images of God make and they can't do any of the stuff that the real images can mm-hmm and then the last line of that little trash talk is those who images of God who make these idols will start to become less human hmm interesting yeah yeah so Chris been drew attention to this in light and we talked about this how in the design patterns of the tree all through the story of the monarchy the monarchies in Israel their trees of knowing good and bad are represented by the idols the idol tree is on high places major poles and such yeah exactly right idols represent their failure at their moment of facing the choice of trusting God's wisdom or doing doing my own so Crispin this is long answered your question Mitchell but Crispin thinks the this idea that comes out in a number of Psalms is actually being hinted at right there in the Garden of Eden story that those who idolize or deify their own search for wisdom on their own terms here in the form of a tree will become like the thing that they idolize hmm so they seek the wisdom of God more than honoring God's commands and so they they send at the tree and then they end up looking like trees they become like the thing that they've idolized yeah now that's good yeah I think it's good it's good I like it okay poke a hole in it please well I'm just thinking there's good trees in this batteries yes and we're supposed to be like a tree yeah this would be like The Tree of Life yep and someone really yeah yeah when you righteous yeah when you live by God's wisdom mm-hmm you are like a tree planted by streams water yeah that's right so in that way yeah having leaves on you would be the symbol of a beautiful thing God's wisdom yeah correct so so are you saying then in this example because they ate from the tree of knowing good and bad they're becoming like that tree yeah it's not that's the wrong kind of tree that's right and they end up looking like trees precisely to cover over their shame and the vulnerability that they're now experiencing because they've broken the divine command yeah and so it's a sad there's happy human trees yes human trees yeah happy face head face and this is a sad face human tree but it's this interesting inversion where the moment that the humans violate God's command by taking from this tree the next thing in the narrative is they dressed himself up like trees this little inversion in the story yeah yeah I want to keep thinking about it I just it is interesting it's a way of talking about how the humans have it's like they've degraded themselves you know they are more than trees they're like trees but they're meant to be more than juries they're meant to be caretakers of the trees but instead they become like trees themselves anyway all right we have question here about the fruit of the vine from Shannon in Canada I have a question in regard to trees specifically the fruit of the vine I've noticed that there are a few mentions of the fruit of the vine one was Noah who being a husband he drank the fruit of the vine also the Nazarite vow says that you are not supposed to eat anything of the vine also there was quite a bit of mention about the fruit of the vine as it pertains to the blood of the grapes and how it plays into the New Testament and with communion and the Lord's Supper I just wanted to get your take on that as it pertains to the topic of trees especially the fruit of the tree now if I remember correctly in Hebrew the word for tree mmm what is that word it's AIT's it's and that we have in English we have a word for tree and we have a word for bush and we have a word for vine yeah yeah and Hebrew it's all eighths right no not necessarily there are different words for different species of trees more it's that any of them at any given moment can be called by the most generic umbrella title tree which is okay which is a it does it can all be referred to straight yeah we would never look at a vine and refer to it as a tree I understand but yeah it sounds funny in English but yeah that's right so the back off a common phrase in Biblical Hebrew for the vine is 8 - the tree of the vine referring to the we got one growing in our yard stick yeah it's it's tall yeah like but it doesn't branch out like a tree it's a great vine right but it's it's but yeah so the fruit of the eighth's which can go a lot of different ways ah yeah I'm still working on this but I've got a pretty at least a compelling to me design pattern list that's just all about stupid things people do when they're drunk yeah and no was the first one huh so the humans eat of the tree and then the you know that's breaking the divine command but Noah is the first one who takes the gift of the garden and he abuses it such that it you know makes him stupid he gets drunk this isn't Genesis 9 and then that's where the shameful thing happens with the Sun and the tent he exposes himself so then what you can just follow through is just you know do a little theme study on people who get drunk throughout the biblical narrative and it can it can be positive or negative wine has kind of like a binary moral value for the Hebrew Bible authors really mm-hmm yeah because it's a gift of the garden yeah which means it's good Genesis 1 mmm it's good so Psalm 104 says God gives grass to the creatures and makes crops grow out of the ground and vine to give joy to the human heart hmm Psalm 104 but then you know the Proverbs will also say wine is a mocker and strong drink is a brawler and you know it'll make you get into fights and get hurt and then not remember it in the morning so just like anything that's good it can be taken one of two ways so you can follow it through there's this theme of people in the high place or in the sacred space who get drunk and do something stupid you know that strange story in Leviticus about Aaron two sons who get roasted by the divine fire mm-hmm it's that strange story so with the weird offering they make yeah it says they have strange fire or unauthorized fire okay and that's the whole rabbit hole but when God's following up on it right after their bodies toasted bodies get carried out of the holy place uh-huh the first thing God says is hey don't ever get drunk before you come into the tent oh really yes so they were drunk Leviticus 10 it doesn't say they were drunk it says that these two guys walked into the tent got roasted for some reason that's not fully clear here the first thing God says after their bodies are carried out is you guys don't get drunk when you enter into the tent it's brilliant why is that brilliant well in other words it doesn't say that they were drunk yeah it implies it infers it yeah and so then I didn't realize that yeah it's really interesting and then when you get to the place of the vidiq Asur talks about what the priests or the higher level of holiness are called to one of them is that they're not supposed to drink the Nazarite vow that you mentioned shannon is what happens when your average izl israelite wants to take on the ultra set apart life of a priest a Nazarite is a normal it's an on line of Aaron but you want to live like you're a priest basically and so Samson was famously one of these I mean he broke every one of his vows and actually he's an important figure in this design pattern where it's precisely a strong drink that is constantly bringing him down or the people around him so it's another way that the tree represents a choice for people there's all these stories about often leaders who get their best being the fruit of the vine tree correct yeah totally and so it's one of the ways the Genesis three design pattern can get activated is by people abusing alcohol well and that's how they make the wrong choice and choose death instead of life because in Paul's mind when he says don't don't get drunk on wine but be filled with spirit totally Oh totally yeah that's exactly right comparing those two things like you can be filled with God's Spirit yeah his wisdom that's right you be under the influence of the spirit in which case you'll have discernment to make wise choices that bring good to you and other people yeah and if yeah if your brains not working right especially if you caused your brain not to work right you're just you're gonna hurt yourself or hurt other people are both yeah the way folly hmm do you want to see something else that's cool I just noticed this recently as in proverbs 23 can you pull it up on gateway on your end yeah mm okay so think through people eat from the tree Adam and Eve violation of divine command death exile Noah drinks of the fruit of the garden folly exposure vulnerability nakedness shame so these are these stories are parallel in Genesis 1 through 11 in Proverbs 23 there's this sweet little poem about alcohol and it starts in verse 29 and it reads who who has whoa who has sorrow who has well yeah yeah you just well I think it's a weird thing to say is this synonym with sorrow yeah yeah okay who has like who's down trodden who has trouble yeah who has trouble who has sorrow who who gets into fights a lot who's complaining who ends up constantly getting hurt for no good reason and has good ideas needless bruises totally MMA fighters yes who's the one whose eyes are red all the time yeah it's those who love to linger over wine mmm those who especially love the mixed wine you know mixing blends mm-hmm do not look what why is mixing the one I think it was a way of making even stronger content I think I'm not a winemaker verse 31 do not look on wine when it is red when it sparkles in the cup is numeric standard literally in Hebrew but when it gives its I out of the cup so this is if it's the turn of phrase meaning it's winking at you it's like you look in there and it sparkles in its life come on come on take a drink it sure goes down smoothly but verse 32 it will bite you like an Akash like a snake wine can be your downfall it will sting you like a Tiffany like a Viper your eyes will start seeing very strange things and your heart will utter distorted things you'll be like somebody laying down in the middle of the sea or like someone lying down at the top of a mast yeah I think people call those the spins the spins yeah yeah yeah the feeling of being hung over look at how it concludes it's now quoting this person who drank too much they hit me but I'm not I'm not hurt they beat me but I don't even know anything about it yeah when should I wake up and get another drink yeah that's the palm but dude dude alcohol is like a snake that will bite you and send you into the heart of the sea tell me this isn't emerging hmm Genesis 3 to design past story and the Noah's story Oh in the Noah story I just think the chaotic water story but our care of our theme yeah yeah who's the iconic person who you know was survived through the heart of the sea you know hmm I think what's happening it's like this poem about the folly of drinking too much here but it's using the garden narrative and the Noah story and combining the imagery yes so that wine is like a snake hmm it could be your moment at the tree could be having that second third or fourth drink whatever that is for somebody hmm anyway I I thought it was really clever yeah this poem is um it's a very perceptive and it's amazing how it feels pretty contemporary brow ancient it is yeah that's right abusing alcohol yeah totally yeah so there you go Shannon you're onto something there's a thing oh yes you also asked about the lore about the Passover meal mm-hmm so for sure that's a key piece there's all kinds of other things too because wine is red and so it can become an image for blood and so the blood of the sacrifices or the wine at a ritual meal can become associated images so there's lots of wine and blood imagery that goes throughout the tour and prophets and and Jesus is totally tapping into that with the Last Supper but it all begins with the tree the fruit of the vine that comes from the tree oh there's more there I want to think about but I at least thought that was cool cask you a random question about the Passover was the Lord's Supper wine I think is it Paul quoting Jesus says whenever you do this whenever you take this cup mmm do it in this way yeah in remembrance of me is that the phrase you're thinking of no no that's I think it's a yeah yeah maybe Jesus says and remembrance of me but there's the phrase whenever you do it ah that's the phrase I want to you know oh I see to say that it's Paul say that for as often as you eat this bread yeah first Corinthians 11 first Corinthians 11 yeah that's right uh for whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes mm-hmm I always thought this meant when you do in this ritualistic way whenever you do it in this ritualistic way then your eating and drinking of the of Christ and and I was taking communion with a friend and he said what he made this point point of maybe it means whenever you eat bread and drink wine ever you do it in remembrance yeah is there is there clue to which one it is yeah you know it's interesting actually that little phrase in Paul's account of it yeah is unique to Paul's retelling of it whenever you drink of it that little phrase is not present in the Gospel accounts okay I'm just looking it's not in Luke's account Luke's account he just says this is the New Covenant in my blood which is poured out for you mm-hmm that's all he says in Luke here let me look up in Matthew 26 he says this is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for you I won't drink of the fruit of the vine until the day I drink it new with you in my father's Kingdom so in other words what it looks like Paul's done there is he's assuming that the thing that Jesus did the night before he was executed has now become a weekly rhythm hmm and so he adds that little phrase whenever you drink of it mm-hmm which by which I think he means in in the weekly gathering okay yeah so I guess I'm disagreeing with your friends okay couple because if it did happen to mean if it did happen to mean whenever you do it this idea of like when I'm drinking wine I'm doing I'm drinking it I got to get drunk but but but because it is from God and it symbolizes something yeah God sacrifice Jesus sacrifice and and it's it's a way to you know you said in the button in the Bible the way that you come to wine or alcohol yeah there's two different two different ways you can gladden your heart and be a gift of God because it tastes amazing but it can also destroy you like most good things in life yeah yeah so yeah but but it's probably just talking about a weekly game yeah sorry I kind of rained on your preying on Merrill from Maryland Merrill from Maryland let's get a literation has a question ah actually kind of a bigger question about images of chaos and disorder and order in Genesis 1 and 2 but we've talked about it recently and I think it I don't know if we've talked about on the podcast so okay I thought we would hear a question and talk about it back when God created the earth and the dome the rakia over the earth and separated everything and created order from chaos does that mean his original creation was chaos and that outside the garden was chaos and inside was order or does that mean that the whole place was ordered and when humans got exiled they brought the curse into creation that they changed the order back into chaos I'm trying to figure out if it was chaotic when they got there or if they brought the chaos with them so I this is a this is a challenge for many readers let's first just go to the first sentence of the Bible you first have the statement in the beginning God created the heavens in the earth like oh great everything exists now but then the next sentence is now the earth was formless and void and darkness yeah and so people who have the view that that's a linear sequence of actions that God made a good and ordered world and either the world that he made was chaotic verse 2 or somehow for some untold story a reason the good world of verse 1 got turned into chaos refers to another way to view it that's very ancient and that actually I think it's the most compelling view because it fits with the literary design is the the first sentence is a heading that's referring to everything that's about to happen and that the real narrative begins in verse 2 yeah if that's the case then the story begins with non order mm-hmm of which the narrative images are darkness and a watery chaos so on that reading the waters and the darkness represent the uncreated world yeah or an ordered world a non ordered world which for the biblical authors to be ordered was to be created so this is where we kind of have to adjust our you know sense of reality to the ancient biblical authors imagination but then this has implications for how you go on and view the relationship of Eden and the garden to the rest of the dry land mm-hmm but I couldn't tell if you had a thought on that first point I think well I think just that that then in the and then in Genesis 2 so if justice one sets up this idea that creation the creation the cosmos was unordered yeah and chaotic God comes he speaks into it creates order that's right by separating like separating things while putting them in their place creating a place for humans yeah creating a place for everything dry land out of the waters yeah yeah then didn't get to justice two and you get the same sort of feeling when you've got this real like this desert it begins with it yeah a lifeless a lifeless desert which in a way is a way to think about yeah chaos unordered non-user yeah yeah not order there's no there's no life there yeah that's right and then God creates a place he separates out of place where there is order by providing water by providing he provides water yes yeah water's ground and then mix humans and so I think her question is then mm-hmm so so the narrative image about when God plants the garden and the trees is really key - so it begins by saying yeah there's no plants no farming no humans but their God did provide water and so then you get clay and then it says God formed a human and then God planted a garden in Eden so it assumes you got the dry land then you have a place called Eden then you have the garden and then you told the Tree of Life is in the middle of the garden and then God takes the human out of out here and puts him in the garden yeah that's the narrative sequence you can just go read it in the gods yeah the holy place the simple that's right so Meryl you I think your intuition is right humans are taken out of the realm of dust and dirt and mortality and non order and put into the realm of order and life do you remember one regret you had in all of our videos is in this video called the Messiah yep and we have an image of Garden of Eden yeah becoming well corrupting I suppose yeah it's like a shock wave goes out from the tree of knowing good yeah so Adam and Eve they take of the trees and all is good and evil and then the shock wave comes and then all this desolation in its way it turns the garden into a desert it turns the garden into a desert and then everything kind of yeah and and yes you you were like home actually that's not a great image yeah well it's not the image of the story the image of story is that they are driven out of the ordered garden land back out into the realm of non order elderness thorns and thistles and death so Merrill's question is I so when when the humans got exiled mm-hmm did they bring the curse out into this beautiful ordered creation I changed the order back into chaos and so what I'm hearing is actually know out there was was chaos right yes order right and then we put back into it that's right and the implication of the commission of Genesis one is be fruitful and multiply fill the land yeah so God it's as if eden is like an outpost yeah of heaven hmm on earth and the whole point is that it will spread but what happens instead is because the key agents that God placed in his presence to begin that process are compromised and so he exiled them yeah out into the land of wilderness and death so it's a way of thinking about the human condition as we know that we're made for more we are the image of God yet the environment the the earth that I experience is like a compromised version of what I know it's capable of being and even more so I know that I'm a compromised version of what I'm capable of being and then the whole story arc of the Bible then is about God reuniting heaven and earth we made a video about it which is why garden imagery is so and tree imagery is so connected to Jesus because he becomes this new bridge between heaven and earth to bring and restore the Tree of Life back people at least I think so so I hope I hope that brings some clarity maril it's somehow it's taken me a long time to get clear about that whole sequence it now it seems so simple because it's right there but mm-hmm my head was full of other ideas about what the curse was and I don't know other stuff and it made that it made it difficult for me to read the biblical story so in Genesis 2 then if the idea is God created order in Eden and yeah yeah then the humans are placed outside seems like logically they're placed out into an unordered yeah at creation yeah actually this is important for Genesis 4 they actually don't go outside of Eden Eden did you go outside the garden I'm told that they sent to the east of the garden okay it's Cain who leaves Eden oh interesting so they're exiled from the garden yeah but then they're hanging out right there at gate at the door yeah which is where Cain and Abel are offering their sacrifices but then it's Cain that's exiled from Eden and that's why he says listen you're making me a wanderer out there and whoever finds me will kill me so once he leaves Eden out there it's the realm of death and danger and there's people out there who are gonna kill him that's whole leather that's a whole other topic yeah but so Cain recognizes that once he leaves Eden he's going out into the realm of danger and death and mortality it's interesting and outside of the garden even in Eden is still mortality think what's strange about the way we're talking about this is what you're saying is something can exist without God having ordered it oh I see and ah hmm well it's just a different frame of reference in Genesis one you have it's the cause it's the cosmos as a sacred space mm-hmm that's the seven day scheme and so the dry land is just one big sacred space so to speak Genesis 2 comes in and it's almost more helpful to think of it now it's going over the land from a vertical point of view because it's concerned about the central space of God's life and presence that's meant to fill all of the dry land mmm but the dry land wouldn't even be there okay all that Genesis 1 yeah that if it wasn't ordered but it's still not yet colonized with the life of heaven okay which i think is what the humans that are supposed to be going to do hmm I think that's how the logic of those two narratives work okay well what do you think about that well I'm going to get behind her question there's in the tradition I grew up in there is this creation was corrupted with that original sin and so yeah yeah yeah was it that everything was good inside and outside the garden and then because of what humans decided to do it became corrupted right or was it that just in the garden it was good yeah outside was just unexplored yeah not good yet not yet ordered not yet ordered correct we're commissioned to participate with God to do that yeah yeah by extending the boundaries of Eton yep that's power of the garden was they needed yeah yeah I think that's right yeah and so when we we decide not to do that and we're placed outside the garden mmm is it that now we've corrupted mmm the space or is it we've just missed an opportunity yeah would you describe yeah yeah in other words the narrative got to pay attention to all the details in the narrative it doesn't say that all creation was the garden or all creation was paradise it very clearly marks off one area as the region of delight mm-hmm which is the Hebrew word Eden and it says with in delight God planted a garden and then even that has a kind of tear to it because the center is marked out it's the special spot so humans are created out here in the debt in the dust which is the most common biblical image for human mortality and frailty right dust its job says it Abraham says it so humans are taken out of the realm of frailty and mortality put into the realm of eternal life and given a responsibility in it and a opportunity that they forfeit and are exiled back out into the into the disordered land so yeah but even that disordered land according to justice one yes is sustained by that's cosmic ordering okay but it's not space that is permeated with the life in abundance the heavens got it which is what the garden okay so yeah it it's not Paradise Lost that's not the story of Genesis two and three it's about paradise this phrase from John Waltons book it's paradise on gained hmm or paradise forfeited and that's why the initiative lay in God's carp what's the difference between losing something and forfeiting some oh well if your idea is everything was paradise humans sinned and now it was like a cosmic shockwave that turned the whole thing into a desert right that's not it's not actually how the story works all right it's like one spot was colonized with the life of heaven the life of heaven humans were put into it and they forfeited their opportunity to stay there and so they were exiled from it that's how the story works that's great can I say it one time just make sure I got it you totally Genesis 1 God orders the cosmos yeah as a sacred place and in it and that ordering is the dry land separated from the chaos waters and for humans to flourish and then you get to Genesis 2 and then God creates a hotspot of that land that land is good but it isn't yet hmm it isn't yet God's throne room or it isn't yet it's not yet the place where the ideal of Genesis 1 can be reached which is God and humans truthful multiply image of God for ever and ever so the land is good and that it was separated from the chaotic waters yeah but it was not yet the ideal yeah where God in humans arrived together in eternal life yeah but God creates a spot of that ideal yeah and then commissions puts the humans in it Commission's them to extend that to all the land we forfeit that opportunity go out into the land that hasn't been developed that way mm-hmm yeah that's right and it's dangerous out there mm-hmm because there's people that'll kill you or there's animals there kill you or the ground will kill you slowly and out there we're talking about here yeah about yeah the world yeah the world as we know it outside of the garden but this world as we know is God good creation - yeah exactly in the Genesis one sense the dressers one says that's right it's not yet in the Genesis 2 garden that's when God's kingdom is fully realized that's when heaven and earth that's right are overlapped that's why I Genesis 2 excuse me that's why the last pages of the Bible revelation 21 and 22 specifically pick up the garden imagery and apply it to the new creation mm-hmm because it's the moment when that thing that was forfeited finally becomes reality yeah which is about heaven coming to earth the reunion of heaven on earth I don't know how long we begun we've gotten through four questions it's just like I predicted speed round speed round you know do it all right Elena from Bulgaria or is it Elena ooh could be Ilona from Bulgaria forgive us Ilona Elena we'll find out in one second in Genesis 21 33 after resolving an issue about a well with Abimelech Abraham plant a tamarisk tree and Beth Beth Sheva bear shava by oh well is there any significance to the fact that he doesn't build an altar but plants a tree and then specifically this type of tamarisk tree yes for very perceptive it's wonderful wonderful perception do you remember how we talked about in this podcast series how the story of Abraham being called out of his place in the east to go to Canaan and then he goes the first place he goes as high places and builds altars and calls on the name of the Lord Genesis 12 or he goes and he sits under a tree and meets with God and calls on the name of the Lord it's Genesis 12 and then in Genesis 22 God says hey get yourself going up to the mountain we're and it's the story about him and Isaac so we talked about these two stories what's interesting the last sentence before or God tests Abraham is the sentence that you're bringing up Elena or Ellen uh and what happens is that Abram solves Abraham solves a conflict with this foreign King and to celebrate he calls on the name of the Lord which usually does but every time he's called on the name of the Lord before this point in Genesis 12 and 13 he builds an altar and he calls on the name of the Lord in this story he plants a tree and then calls on the name of the Lord and I think it's a design pattern that's giving you this bigger picture that building an altar is in effect an equivalent of planting a sacred tree because they are both places were God and humans to commune together hmm this one and a few images - yeah - image think about it yeah one is of a human offering up to God what is most precious mm-hmm and the other is a tree and trees are where God provides for humans hmm and a tree is where we choose - yeah obey correct and exactly which is a form of sacrifice totally and so the point is that we're told that Abraham plants a tree and calls on the name of the Lord the next sentence is and after these things God tested Abraham and said to him and then he says go to Mount Moriah and offer up your son well where's Abraham sitting he's sitting by a tree oh so he's faced a tree facing a test exactly so all of the all of the moments where Abraham is by a tree and fit into these Genesis three design patterns mm-hmm really cool ways not and not just cool because it's artsy but it's it's trying to show you that this is gonna be Abraham's ultimate test of whether he's going to listen to the voice of God or listen or do what's good in his own eyes you know which yeah anyway so goldstar milena for noticing that Darren from Washington mm-hmm DC Washington State my question has to do with the humans are trees idea great that's we're talking about yes oh well humans is trees that's specific yes ever since watching Tim's year of tour of videos on Deuteronomy 2019 which the year of the tour videos yeah somewhere on YouTube yeah they're out there just three years of Wednesday mornings at 6 a.m. yeah remember you do that we were first starting this we're working on our first script yeah and I always thought maybe I'll get up yeah no it's awesome just three years I'm going through the Torah chapter by chapter every Wednesday but man someone recorded it oh there you go so we went through the book of Deuteronomy and Deuteronomy 20 verse 19 has intrigued you Karen do you think the biblical authors are making a pun that is riffing off the humanist trees theme and Deuteronomy 28 verse 19 where yeah dude this is such an awesome little this is awesome so Deuteronomy 20 is a whole set of wisdom laws that Yahweh gives the people about how to conduct battles they're gonna exist as a nation-state they're gonna get into fights with people so here's how God wants you either to or not to behave and verse 19 it says let's say you're laying siege to a city for a long time fighting against it to capture it don't destroy the trees by putting an axe to them so that you can eat you their fruit you see that mm-hmm for is the tree of the field a human that it should come under siege by you only the trees that you know are not fruit trees can you destroy or cut down to make your seed works against the city that's making war with you false but really bringing them wah-ah okay this is soap but it's a it's a cool it's cool way to do battle I guess like you're not gonna destroy yeah I think that's producing through yeah totally yeah okay so yeah one for sure one context of this is ancient warfare tactics where when you besiege a city the whole point is you wipe out all of the agriculture of the whole region to try to make life miserable for them inside yeah so they can never recover economically so that's one thing so God says none of that mm-hmm but notice though notice actually notice first of all that is specifically fruit trees right if it doesn't produce fruit you know okay use it to you know build your battering ram or whatever your siege tower but if it's a fruit tree gut so God's giving a divine command about the fruit tree come on yeah and and then specifically look at the question at the end of verse 19 is the tree a human that it should come under siege by you it's like the fruit tree is given the same dignity and value as a human made in God's image I think that's the logic here isn't the logic look you're not at war with the trees yeah correct yeah yeah cuz the tree is not a person your war with the people I understand ah so as a tree the person you're at war with no no no yeah totally okay alright so at least you can say the trees are given a level of dignity yeah they are giving you are giving dignity that's for sure and why is it because they represent the gift of God the gift of God's life yeah because you can cut down trees the dumb produced for it and but don't cut down the fruit trees yeah why well they they provide yeah for people and they provide for animals which is what Genesis 1 says ah so you're right I was overstating my case they're given but they are given a dignity and value that's remarkable and so it doesn't necessarily assume the people is tree metaphorical scheme but where it's closed we're in the ballpark hmm and there's Genesis three language all over this right yeah well it's one of those things where it's like if there was out of all of the commands yeah to have recorded in the Torah yeah that's right of the how many five hundred six hundred and thirteen thirteen or 11 yeah why this one yeah that's right correct and it seems like there's something here yeah that's riffing on the tree theme correct that is more than just an army tactic yeah oh for sure yeah this is about a conception that uh any fruit tree you come across should remind you yeah Genesis to God's desire to bring the life of the heavens to the earth and so if you see a tree that gives food freely liberally don't cut it down don't kind of dish not yeah alright speed around Peter from Netherlands I was wondering if there's a connection between trees and high places and highly placed people good one because in the examples that you gave about people being like trees it seems that there's always highly placed people involved and also when someone is making a decision at high place at a tree at the high place it seems that these decisions not just affect their own lives but also the lives of many others yes leadership yeah yeah that's right yeah yeah yeah that's right Adam and Eve are royal priests portrayed as royal priests both the kingly and priestly roles our representative roles and they and their names mean humanity and life so obviously they're representative yeah this is how the biblical story works all of the key characters represent larger people groups whether it's Abraham or Moses or David or Joshua but also like a Nebuchadnezzar who is like a big tree of life in that dream that he has mmm right and the Book of Daniel yeah where he's like a big tree so the way that the Genesis 3 design pattern will work is specifically but not only focusing on people in high places because the high places mean places of leadership places of leadership or high social status yeah because people of any social status or low social status will also have their moments of testing mm-hmm and are called to bear fruit totally and to be laughs for others yeah that's right yeah how much more so people in leadership correct yeah yeah that's right yeah so a big part of the testing at the tree on the high place motif is that it's often people in leadership positions but but not only that but that is a legitimate observation so Peter a fun project would be to just scan through the biblical story and make a list of all of the people who have moments of decisions tests of their character somewhere in the vicinity of trees or where trees are somewhere in the context and you'll get quite long list and then go for a long walk and have a cup of tea and think about these things keep rockin what should we do yeah sure we can do one or two more Garrett 10 Garrett Garrett from Tennessee yeah my question for the Tree of Life podcast is from the book of Esther in the book of Esther there are gallows set up for Mordecai by the evil character Haman the word gallows is from what I can tell the only place where it's translated gallows I think it's interesting that this evil character thinks he's gonna do away with the righteous person but instead meets his death on this tree that's translated instead gallows want to get your thoughts on that it's true the word gallows appears nowhere in the book of Esther it's the word eighths hmm it appears four times in this connection here what is a gal oh I didn't really know what a gal is gallows for hanging oh thank you for hanging I'm gonna look it up yeah it's a hangman platform oh yeah yeah yeah so in other words translations that interpret it as gallows are not just translating they're also interpreting what the tree what that tree was yeah literally what it says Heyman says is I'm going to build a high tree for Mordecai to be hung upon its word to hang or suspend so it actually could refer to a variety of execution practices this was from John Levinson a scholar who wrote a commentary on Esther but I first came across this and he surveyed like ancient near-eastern execution techniques and crucifixion or hanging was not common in the ancient persian empire but impaling was yeah and so in our rich scripture video yeah yeah it's big and paling and the New International Version translates the tree as a pole and they translate hang as impaled so gross yeah it's yeah it's mortifying but so what's significant though notice however it's the wicked want to kill the righteous upon a tall tree in exalted tree and what happens is inverted is that in fact the wicked is killed upon that high tree that he made to kill the righteous and there's a hole I haven't worked this out yet I know all the text but I haven't pondered them enough there's a whole design pattern theme about people dying on the tree mmm-hmm and Jesus's crucifixion is the culmination of that theme but there's a bunch of kings and Joshua who get hung on trees there's a law that says you just hangs myself on the tree judas hangs himself I don't remember it being on a tree but he didn't hang himself and his got spill out on the ground that's a gross scene also girl there's and there's the law and Deuteronomy 23 about the one who hangs upon a tree is cursed by God right so these are all connected somehow in that the death upon the tree is this very shameful way to die and then it ends up being the way that Jesus dies so I think the phrase hung upon the tree can is that is the oh it's like a phrase that could refer to many different kinds of execution mm-hmm but what's important is that this design pattern meaning of that phrase that goes all the way back to the trees that cause death from the garden I think that's how it's all connected but I haven't worked it out it sounds like a long interesting conversation yeah and yeah it's kind of a gruesome might end okay well Melissa learn more let's end on a high note okay Warren from Dallas Texas one tree that pops up is in the Gospel of John chapter 1 when Jesus sees Nathanael sitting under the fig tree this has always perplexed to me and I wondered if there are significance that you could elaborate on do you know the story yeah it's the culmination of the opening chapter of John Nathaniel is the last disciple that Jesus calls out of the whole group Andrews Simon and so on in chapter one and he comes up to Nathanael Jesus does this in verse 47 and he says I look in Israelite in whom there is no deceit no treachery here's the son of Israel who's not treacherous giving me blank stares here well I know this from Sunday school just this classic like how do how do you know anything about me oh yeah yeah yeah then no I'm going after something else okay a son of Israel who's not treacherous who's the most treacherous person in the book of Genesis a guy named Israel okay right deceives us blind father deceives his brother yeah deceives his uncle after being deceived by his uncle deceit is the word associated with Israel in New York of Genesis okay because Jacob yeah well Jacob whose name has changed Israel because he fights with God yeah so when his name actually and is a play on word to see I have to play on the word fighting with God well Israel is yeah oh but Jacob means yeah he'll he'll grab her he'll sneak yeah somebody who trips other people by grabbing yeah someone yeah yeah okay trickster god Jacob means trickster Jacob means trickster his name gets changed to one who wrestles with God fights with God yeah both yeah pretty Brawley names and every part of his life is marked by deceit okay Jesus is here to begin the renewal of Israel hmm and he sees in Israel in whom there is no deceit hmm and some Nathaniel's like what how do you know me yeah I guess that's not the point yeah he says listen I saw you sitting under the fig tree this is Jesus the riddler athletic Riddler at work here yeah there's a whole network of texts in Micah Zechariah and first kings that talk about the Golden Age of Solomon or the Golden Age of Messianic Kingdom where every Israelite will sit under their own vine and fig tree hmm so both what Jesus is saying is ah here's an Israelite who's I can begin the renewal movement with mmm it's like he's a picture of the things to come he's a yeah a picture of the renewed Israel hmm for sure and then Jesus goes on into things like oh you're the Son of God you're the king of Israel and Jesus is like oh you like that thing about the fig tree just what you're gonna see greater than that truly truly you'll see the sky is open and the messengers of God ascending and descending it's about Jacob's dream on a high place stairs of beth-el hmm which is the house of God you're gonna yeah God's pace coming down yes yeah into our space yeah and so that story about Jacob this trickster Genesis 28 what Jacob sees is a stairway uniting heaven on earth and Jesus replace that but makes himself the stairway just he doesn't say you'll see the angels going on the stairway yeah he says you'll see the angels going up and down on me oh he's the bridge he's the TAT the tabernacle of God has become flesh the word has become flesh and made a tabernacle so there's such a great moment because it's it's highlighting probably like half a dozen Hebrew Bible texts and it's doing it all like in this subtle way that it makes me smile that's yeah I'm sorry I was fishing no no that's great well what's funny is it just gets so flattened out in Sunday school Oh story about wasn't that cute how Jesus knew this guy Oh supernaturally knew this time and that's one part of what's going on for sure he's a prophet yeah he couldn't he has you know supernatural knowledge but that's not the whole of what's going on yeah yeah yeah we made it through nine questions I think that's the most we've ever done yeah I feel like with this theme we danced around and a lot of different ideas it's true I think some themes seem to have this really tight unifying thing going on yeah with the tree theme it seems like there's so much who talked about true sacrifice and obedience and we talk about wisdom and the fear of the Lord we're talking about sacrifice of Jesus in his blood and in my mind I want to create this one concrete system for the steam to live in and it feels like yeah one doesn't work so well that way yeah I mean we talked about cursed as the one who dies on a tree that seems like a whole thing yet right yeah that's right uh the one thing we didn't talk about which was asked a number of times were brought up in number times was when jesus heals the blind man yeah and he's like everyone looks like trees yeah totally yeah so awesome but anyway I think what I've appreciated about this theme what I've since other people appreciate about this theme is that it is rich and it gets you to think about so much and a fresh perspective and in the same way that we open talking about what does it mean to live to eat from the tree of life practically as soon as you open that door you're into this whole world of of a beautiful question I feel like it does that and all these arenas yeah just keeps opening doors for you to contemplate yeah well well said it's almost like a meta type of theme that can hold lots of other sub-themes that unites the storyline of the Bible it to me this the tree imagery throughout the Bible has become one of the best ways to show the poetic imagination of the biblical authors that through the image of a tree they can ignite so many sub-themes and ideas and plot twists all under the common imagery of a tree that can all of a sudden mean so many things and it's clear that they want they don't want to shut down our imaginations with this tree imagery they want to ignite it which to me has become really exciting way to think about trees thanks for listening along I think this is gonna go out at the end of the tree series so it means next yeah week we will be talking about parables yeah how to read the parables of Jesus that video is already out yep but we haven't released the conversation yeah that'll be next yeah about parable next series Jesus the riddler he brought it up the Riddler yes exactly yeah that's gonna be awesome thank you guys for listening to the bioproject podcast thank you for staying in your questions we love hearing from you we're so so grateful for your enthusiasm and your support Bible project is a non-profit animation studio in Portland Oregon we make videos and resources that show how the Bible is a unified stories lease and Jesus thanks for listening [Music] [Music]

Channel: BibleProject

Views: 880,928

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Keywords: bibleproject, podcast, bible, tim mackie, jon collins, theology, the bible project, tree of life, bible questions, adam and eve, genesis, beginning, creation

Id: CuN4YZ7pup0

Length: 76min 3sec (4563 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 17 2020