Is Susie X Noelle TOXIC? | Is this relationship DOOMED!? | Deltarune Theory and Discussion

the Delta Rune Community is split see since chapter one we've known that Noel is extremely interested in getting closer with Susie in chapter one Chris and Susie become fully fledged friends and Noelle asks Chris about Susie what kind of a person she is stuff like that chapter 2 teases this relationship a lot more confirming that this isn't just a little teaser or a silly fan fiction material noelle's interest in getting close to Susie seems to be part of her story in the game a crucial part of her character Arc the fairest we'll see in Chapter 2 is one of my favorite parts of the entire game and afterwards I said to myself darn I want a whole game of just Susie and Noel so that kind of tells you how I feel about it that being said it seems like a large amount of daldarun fans believe that Noel's interest in Susie is toxic people have claimed that she's obsessive even if you're part of the online deltaroo community you've definitely seen how in every discussion about this relationship which I'll call suzelle there's always a person claiming that it's toxic and I've seen so much fighting over this that I feel like making a video on it my name is Spooky dude make sure to like And subscribe now let's discuss to start this video off I want to say this isn't a weird rage bait rant about how toxic Noel is you know where it is nor is it a whiny rant about the evil fan base or anything like that as much this topic has generated a lot of discourse with the sole aim of arguing I've seen people genuinely interpreting deltarune in a way that they believe suzelle is being portrayed as a toxic ship and that's why I want to provide an actual analysis of the text and whether or not it's trying to portray the relationship as toxic I've seen discussions about humanly upset at those who believe it would be more interesting if they didn't get together and I mean come on guys that's stupid don't get mad at others over fictional romances if people are being bigoted in some way or the relationship they believe should happen is problematic then okay that's totally different but someone simply believing that any given fictional romance isn't good or fun or would be more interesting if it fell apart it's totally fine it's just their opinion even someone believes suzelle is toxic there's no reason to get genuinely upset everyone reads and interprets fiction differently and as long as an interpretation isn't hurting anyone I don't see the problem with people reading things one way or another so with that being said is suzelle toxic and this is where I already have to take my first detour because I think it's important I said I want to see whether deltarune is trying to portray the relationship as toxic because that's the most important thing is deltarune trying to portray the relationship as toxic but people like to apply a real world system of ethics and morals to every piece of fiction and doing so actively muddies the message that it's trying to send do you like Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy VII well guess what he's killed tens of thousands of people okay okay let me let me give you this one ready there are two co-workers one is always trying to make everybody's day brighter the other is a depressed person who lives kind of a less good life and is always mean to that first co-worker always calling him names saying awful things to him hurting him even going out of his way to try and make his day miserable is that abusive well if it was the real world yes but I'm talking about Squidward and SpongeBob is Squidward abusive because he's always mean to SpongeBob no we know that's not really the case in the same way that faces and poses and drama and action are exaggerated in media the same goes for character relationships what's most important is what the media itself is trying to say about the characters in their relationship the message of the media in my opinion usually takes precedent over real life analysis now that that's not to say this is always the case there are in fact times when fiction even if it's trying to say one thing ends up actually saying something that's objectively wrong certain famous authors who I won't you know I'm not going to name names but they've been recently discussed as having certain races of characters contain certain traits in their books that are negative that's a completely Fair analysis and definitely not what I'm talking about what I'm saying is if a piece of media wants to portray a message through character relationships real life morals can't truly be applied 100 however there are indeed times in which harmful messages should be called out I don't think this is the most controversial belief and this concept needs to be applied to the whole suzelle discussion ninety percent of the people arguing that Noel's feelings are toxic or obsessive are analyzing Noel in the context of real life yes you are correct the amount of times Noel talks or makes references to her crush on Susie is excessive if it was in real life also just an FYI I knew people in Middle to high school who talked about their crushes all day that's like a normal thing for kids to do but the fact is it's at a video game and that game needs to tell us information about the characters you don't realize it but ninety percent of any game show or movie involving any characters at all convey information to us in completely unrealistic ways to quickly tell us everything we need to know about any specific character games Hammer certain character traits into our brains within minutes of showing us the character Hey look it's a nerdy scientist character and within four minutes of seeing him he would have said things like according to my calculations and if we just move this doohickey over here and hey guys I'm drinking some H2O that kind of stuff it's over the top and exaggerated but it's to let us know who this character is within a few minutes you'd be saying to yourself yeah this guy's a nerd look at deltarune arguably characters like birdly catty rousse Etc are explained very quickly by repeating character quirks sure all these characters have deeper sides to them however in order to show you what's on the surface level quirks are repeated and tropes are played into in this way Noel's interest in Susie is simply a character trait Toby needs to make sure we fully understand sure Noel consistently hints at her feelings however without those moments we wouldn't know if we only had that brief moment in chapter one that kind of hints at it it wouldn't feel like a fully fleshed out part of her character characters aren't real people they're more like mini books books that you need to write noelle's interest in Susie is clearly a core part of her existence in Delta moon in the same way alphys and undyne's feelings were in undertale like I said characters are stories and statements rather than real people Squidward and SpongeBob have a good relationship both really admire each other and are even able to call each other friends however if they were real people Squidward would absolutely earn the label of abusive however the show consistently makes the statement that Squidward's actions towards SpongeBob aren't truly the core of their relationship underneath everything Squidward does like SpongeBob these moments throughout the show that reveal this truth consistently remind you that Squidward and SpongeBob's relationship despite seeming abusive on paper isn't actually abusive as it's not a real life relationship apply this to deltarune Noel talks frequently about Susie in a positive light displays the desire to be bossed around by Susie wants to get shoved up against a locker however these things aren't meant to be taken literally Noelle doesn't literally want to get bullied she is falling for Susie's personality type as it clearly complements her own so with these preliminary statements out of the way let's actually analyze the relationship what are the complaints against suzelle one Noelle is obsessed with Susie to the point where it's all she talks about two Noel is jealous and creepily attached to Susie making her uncomfortable three this relationship in general is abusive let's start with number one I already gave my basic thoughts on this before Noel talks about Susie a lot but as I said this Behavior shouldn't be labeled as obsessive this is a character trait that the game needs to communicate to us the true question should revolve around the proportion of time Noel spends discussing Susie compared to her total screen time and when you actually think about that things change drastically I was going to give examples of a few conversations where Noel doesn't even mention Susie but after looking at the game I realize there are far too many most of the City walk around with Noel has her talking with Chris about other things about the city itself about their past together about inside jokes deaths Etc one of Noel's deepest character moments is when she talks to Chris about deaths bringing up the story of how the Des Noel Chris and Azrael group would go exploring together this isn't a character who was obsessed plus her interactions with Susie are always light-hearted and fun the ferris wheel scene too is a deep character discussion with Noel talking about why she's even nervous around Susie in the first place Noel thinks Susie is cool because she's willing to break the rules where Noelle is scared of others it seems to hurt like Susie isn't she's willing to do crazy things if a character is obsessed in a piece of fiction you'll know like I said fiction takes its time to try and you know show you immediately what's the dynamic with this character what's the relationship here and if someone is obsessed chances are the game won't take you know seven chapters to get that fact out there you'll know immediately and the game itself will say hey this character is obsessed not just you know your own personal interpretation I don't think deltarune is portraying suzelle as obsessive yet I think that what it's doing is showing as Noel clearly cares about Susie very very much but it's not obsessive and it's not portraying her thoughts in a negative light the second main argument is that she's creepily attached to Susie making Susie uncomfortable and that I think is completely wrong look at Susie's dialogue she goes out of her way to explain that she's been nice to Noelle because she noticed her smile on the first day of school one of their last interactions is Susie saying they should hang out outside of the Dark Worlds even after that Susie talks about what Noel would like before questioning why she's thinking about Noel if Susie was creeped out she wouldn't ask to hang out with Noel or be thinking about her positively after the events of chapter 2. I think this argument is just outright wrong you have to understand Susie's Arc here in the beginning of chapter one Susie was super standoffish she had no friends she had nobody who liked her it's implied she has a horrible or even no home life becoming friends with Chris and rousse was a life-changing thing for her for Noel to not only want to be friends with her but to be way more into her than Chris or Rouse a for reasons you and I understand but Susie doesn't it's shocking for her she clearly doesn't entirely know how to react or how to interpret the situation but the farthest thing from the truth is that Susie's uncomfortable finally we get to the last main argument that the relationship in general is abusive or will be abusive by default and that I think is an argument worth taking a look at see here's the thing this argument is full of flanderization and misinterpretation Noel is seen by some sides of the fan base as a pushover clingy obsessive Etc Susie is seen as cold mean and rude constantly making you know mean jokes to the other characters many say that by default Noel who's a complete pushover getting into even a friendship with Susie would be abusive as Susie's attitude would lead to Noel getting pushed around this also is used in an argument that I see a lot which is that Noel actively goes towards that kind of abuse wanting to be pushed around Desiring to be the one Susie shoved in a locker Etc and this is where I have to step in and say hold up the entire point of Noel's Arc in Chapter 2 is her finally standing up for herself acknowledging that she needs to be stronger in the sense that she must be able to say no to people and she finally does by the end of chapter two she's gotten stronger no no not not that kind of stronger stronger mentally stronger mentally this is the quality she literally admires Susie for she says that Susie's Brave and willing to do whatever this isn't a case of a pushover finding comfort in a life they've lived their entire lives this is the case of someone finding strength through a friend and helping themselves become a stronger person able to say no and stand up for herself after being inspired by Susie also I kind of feel like mentioning Susie clearly has a lot more character stuff to get through we got that surface level angst in chapter one however it's been made clear Susie has a long way to go that being said the way she's portrayed in chapter one is completely different than the way she acts in chapter 2. this character is the same as this character and that's hard to believe Susie in Chapter 2 has opened up has become less mean her jokes are less mean and more funny mean even when she says things that slightly cross a line in Real Life the game makes sure to show you it's all in good fun I don't think any two characters are automatically incompatible unless your asgore and toriel of course but all jokes aside seeing two completely different characters with different personalities fall in love is much more fun than watching two identical characters fall in love at that point why bother what's the point of portraying a relationship romantic friendly whatever if the two characters are the exact same both Susie and Noel have things to work on but they're both just people sure they've got different personalities but if chapter two and the fairest we'll see and as any indication their friendship and whatever it eventually turns into isn't automatically toxic or abusive as I said before deltarune would go out of its way to portray if a relationship or friendship was toxic or abusive after all Noel is involved with an abusive relationship on the snow grave route and this is clearly portrayed to us and the Romantic subtext that's present throughout the route is also clearly shown in a negative toxic way this is what a toxic relationship between two characters would look like this is how deltarune would handle such a thing so in conclusion Noel isn't obsessive toxic or anything like that her constantly talking about Susie is simply a consequence of deltarin being a video game that needs to fully explain her character to us in a very short amount of time similarly both Noel and Susie are good people and in no way is their current friendship or whatever it may turn into abusive that being said I understand why some people may see it that way however I think it's mostly tied to reading the narrative in a way that only makes sense in real life my name is Spooky dude make sure to like and say wait a minute why is there more video here's the thing only one of two arguments that fans make when it comes to suzelle many believe that it's toxic right but many more believe that it shouldn't and won't be an end game relationship that somehow over the course of deltarune one or the other will shoot this notion down or that Toby simply wouldn't go through with it so rather than end this video with the non-answer of no they're not abusive but I can see why others would see it that way get my prediction brain out and discuss whether or not suzelle will ever happen and if it should so with that being said what are the arguments against suzelle happening in deltarune one it's too similar to undyne and alphys and Toby wouldn't do the same thing twice two it's boring three it would be far more interesting if it didn't happen or if this relationship instead turned completely toxic on one end now these are interesting right let's talk about that first one I think I understand where the comparisons come from between Susie and Noel with undyne and alphys uh a strong Brave Fearless character with a huge heart deep down inside and another shy nerdy character sounds like suzelle right but I think it's clear that both of these characters are very different than undyne or alphys sure vague descriptors do seem to match up however once you try describing them in detail you realize they're very different besides the general differences between them their deeper character traits are way different Susie's personal life noelle's sister and personal issues it's completely different than undyne and Alphas I'm not doing a very great job at describing them I know for a fact someone could do a much better job diving deep into these characters and their differences I just I think it's safe to say though that they are indeed very different I think this belief comes from the fact that yeah if you look at suzelle in kind of a vague way you can say hey wait a minute this is similar to alphas and undyne and technically yeah like I said they are similar in terms of their broadest descriptors but I feel like the misconception with this idea comes from the fact that undyne and alphys was a silly Side Story that well yes slightly dipped its toes into deeper character stuff the majority of it was jokey and silly and fun honestly I think that the deepest moment it ever got in the game ends with Alphas being thrown in a trash can and Papyrus jogging so you know there's that in that way if suzelle ends up becoming a side thing that's silly and fun I can see why people would compare it to undyne and alphys not because of bigotry though I'm sure some people are indeed just being but instead because if it ends up being totally silly side stuff then it most likely won't cut deep with either character at a deeper level therefore ending up with it reflecting the vague broadest version of these characters possible that being said if you look at the ferris wheel scene in the general way deltarune feels and is progressing I don't know how you could possibly believe that's the case this relationship whether they're friends or something else is clearly going to continue throughout the rest of the game and we can see that in the one scene they had that was really meaningful this relationship made it way past that silly side level and cut through both characters showing us the realest deepest look at either character we've seen so far particularly Noel it is my belief that this relationship will be unique not just because Susie and Noel are different characters than undyne and alphys but because this is more of a main story thing that will influence the stories of both characters these next two points kind of flow together here that it's boring and that it'd be more interesting if this relationship failed or became completely toxic now I know you guys are smart I'm gonna give you guys a lot of credit and I'm going to do so when it comes to what I'm about to say please try to understand the point I'm making here I agree with the statement that conflict is inherently more interesting than people getting along but that's solely based on their relationship right now and the way fiction Works in general in any piece of fiction two characters fighting with one another is inherently more interesting than them just not fighting conflict in any piece of media presents us with the two sides arguments that are presented you know you wouldn't have superhero movies without someone for them to fight you know what I mean and I think that when you apply that kind of thinking to suzelle it's like well what's more interesting than being silly and fun together or them fighting and it's like sure in that way right I understand where you're coming from you know Susie and Noel getting along as I stated before runs the risk of falling into silly side content territory and that's why I think a lot of people are against them getting together because of the status of their relationship right now see right now Susie and Noel aren't doing any really deep soul searching or anything both have silly only positive feelings for each other that are mostly flavor text despite a few scenes of you know relative importance if suzelle were to happen in game and continued exactly as it is right now with minimal changes which is just silly funny dialogue and positive feelings on both ends then yes that's largely boring if I had to choose between suzelle staying exactly as it is right now without any deeper introspection on Noel or Susie or for it to turn toxic and one of them to turn the other down purely in terms of what would be more interesting I choose option b but that's natural conflict like I said is automatically more interesting than peace it doesn't matter what the question is here would I rather that gaster to be a friend or an enemy for Azrael to come back home friendly and smiling or brooding and hiding dark feelings I'll always choose the side that brings more conflict and in turn interesting narrative possibilities with it so is that it am I saying I hope that suzelle becomes toxic no because here's the thing we're at chapter 2 of 7 and maybe more their relationship is going to evolve just because conflict is inherently more interesting than a lack thereof doesn't mean that two characters who aren't conflicting with each other can't be taken to that same level of Interest sure characters who like each other and aren't fighting isn't inherently interesting however the second that they as a Duo face conflict together is when suddenly that interest is there while they won't conflict with each other that interest will be found in how their relationship holds a magnifying glass up to them as characters as well as how it continues to affect them throughout the story sure right now it's mostly silly and fun but character arcs aren't called arcs for no reason the place they're at right now is a high point but I have a feeling that both Susie and Noel will experience hardships and triumphs throughout the game let's not kid ourselves Rudy is most likely going to die whatever happens to death will probably come to light we'll have to deal with mayor holiday at some point Noel's life is going to get shaken around same with Susie she's going to eventually learn these Adventures she's been on and the friends she's made are all fake something that the game wants us to know she doesn't realize yet she's going to find out that Chris isn't even fully there and she's been hanging out with well us she's going to confront the situation with her home life Noelle and Susie are going to have to confront the darkest worst Noelle and Susie are going to have to confront the darkest worst parts of their lives and yet through everything if suzelle is indeed endgame they will have each other and through that they'll persevere and in turn you will find some interest there I mean the plot of chapter 2 was largely run by Susie looking for Noel you know that first scene she immediately goes out of her way to you know threaten the queen like that was Susie right I mean and I I think I think both of these characters in their complementary personalities are going to face hardships and the relationship between them will change because of it I doubt that suzelle will be a silly boring unchanging Thing Once Rudy dies when that happens we'll see a completely different side of things what Susie is like when it comes to confronting the death of a loved one who knows maybe this is where she tells Noelle about her relationship with her parents maybe not if Susie freaks out because all of her adventures have been fake in one way or another there's one element that's not fake that's been the most real connection she's made since the beginning and that's Noel I see the potential here for these two characters to go through conflict together and not have conflict with each other to grow as people learning from one another just because what they're at right now isn't anything super engaging doesn't mean it won't end up that way and I think the relationship can be engaging even if they aren't turned against each other so that's that I don't think this relationship is toxic currently I don't believe it will go that way nor would I want it however I'm not going to lie and say that the going that route is inherently bad or definitely cannot happen 100 if that's what Toby wants to do he'll do it and maybe it'd be really good I don't know but based on what we're seeing currently I don't think that's going to happen I just like to add one more time I don't think anyone should be harassing anyone based on their opinions we're all fans of deltarune and as long as someone isn't being openly bigoted I don't see the reason to get mad at them for having an opinion on the narrative I've seen plenty of people who really want and think it would be good if suzelle turned toxic and you know I'm sure there are some people that feel that way because of some kind of you know bigotry which is which is obviously wrong but the people that I've seen it from are largely thinking about it from a narrative perspective and I can't blame them or say how dare you not want this fictional romance between two characters to you know not happen it whatever it's not a big deal so those are my thoughts my name is Spooky dude make sure to like And subscribe and follow me on Twitter you know I really need more Twitter followers we've been getting some bang or tweets out this month I've got a whole bunch of likes on one of them I was so happy about that uh I also put some of my crazier thoughts there so yeah I would appreciate if you followed me there anyway uh thanks for watching foreign [Music]

Channel: SpookyDood

Views: 41,775

Keywords: deltarune, deltarunetheory, theory, discussion, undertale, toby fox, sans, spamton, deltarune chapter 2, deltarune chapter 3, deltarune analysis, deltarune video essay, deep dive, Sans, Theory review, Spookydood, theories, Deltarune ships, Kralsei, suselle, Deltarune Chapter 3, Friend inside me, Deltarune spoiler, Deltarune Newsletter, Toby Fox, Gaster, Gaster theory, Video Essay, The Knight, Kris Theory, the knight, susie x noelle, noelle x susie, deltarune romance, deltarune ship

Id: uWuc5zs_c4w

Length: 23min 40sec (1420 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 27 2023