Is South Africa a failed state?

well let's get into this conversation now corruption murder for hire and a lack of accountability are just some of the things that lead people to believe that the country is slowly becoming a failed State let's speak more on this now and we're joined by William Peggy he is the chairman of the South African Institute of international Affairs and if you like on an ordinary day he is a political analyst Mr bigger thank you very much for joining us all the way in George in the Western Cape let's begin with at least just some of what what I'm going to paraphrase to you I've just had a conversation with the chairperson of the ANC Guerra mantashe and he makes a very strong suggestion that South Africans will live to regret the day that they vote the ANC out of power simply because he says the people of the South Africa don't appreciate what they have well until Perhaps it is gone do you agree no I don't agree I I think the people of South Africa have given the ANC 30 years who sought out the problems of the country so so after 30 years they realized that the ANC has failed to solve the problems of the country so they are now looking for somebody else who could solve the problems of the country who could improve the livelihood of South Africans so the the ANC has had 30 years to prove itself and it hasn't proved itself in that 30 years of course in the last 30 years we South Africa built a democracy which we are all proud of but that was not the anc's work alone it was the AC it was the work of the NC it was the work of the people of South Africa it was the World Cup other political parties remember we have other political parties that were involved in the codessa negotiations um so democracy in South Africa was not created by the ANC it was an effort by all South Africans as that part in the last 30 years the architecture of our democracy has been put in place but uh by through our Constitution and that's that's what we fought for um but to to claim that only the ANC was responsible for it I think is stretching stretching a point so yes credit was right that a lot has been achieved but a lot of what has been achieved has been achieved by the people and by other players by the private sector by the ngos the trade unions the churches they've all contributed to build the Democracy that is South Africa specific place where some where the ANC was given responsibility was the economy and it failed miserably on changing the economy so that today half of the people of South Africa go to bed hungry uh the the power system of South Africa is all but collapsed although gwende said it is not about collapse and so on uh the train Railway network of South Africa is all but collapsed coal is now being transported by trucks when we have the largest railway infrastructure in Africa but it is not operational because of the failure of the ANC so their successes in South Africa which many people contributed to those successes this specific assignment that the ANC is given under the Constitution which is to to manage the economy the ANC has failed to manage the economy we have 44 of our economically active population are unemployed so so the ANC has failed in my view as the government of South Africa so the ANC may have failed in managing this country's economy but let's go back a little bit we'll come to the question about what whether or not you believe that we are seeing signs of a failed state but when he says that people of South Africa do not have an appreciation of just how much progress has there been he says before 1994 about 34 percent of South African households were electrified fast forward to 2023 says that figure that percentage stands at around 90 percent this is one of the examples he uses for why he says we lack the appreciation of the progress that's been made yes but the the point that he made well if you remember he pointed about out that in the L in the 90s he was on the board of Esco and the ANC inherited an escort with a surplus of power so the the electrification program that was done but since the ANC came into power was on the back of the power supply built up by the National Party it was not on the back of the power supply built up by the ANC when that power supply was exhausted uh which was in 2007-2008 we went into load shedding and have been in load setting since 2007 2008. so so he's boasting largely on the back of the achievements of the National Party not of the ANC so let's move then with the theme of failed State there are some who hold a strong view that we are already seeing those signs then on this argument and I'm going to move uh on the back of that to what party could potentially take us out of this well I don't I don't subscribe to the notion that South Africa is heading towards being a failed state is a good illusion example of what a failed state is in Africa is Somalia Somalia has broken up into three fragments it used to be a unified country and it was a big supporter of the ANC during the struggle and many ANC leaders had got their passports from Somalia so Somalia was a good supporter of the struggle against the socratic today Somalia has collapsed as a country it has been in the middle of a civil war since 1991 huge numbers of its population have left the country their massive refugee camps in Kenya of somalis who've run away from the collapse of the state in in Somalia that's what a failed state looks like you have Pirates for example if you remember there were pirates based in in Somalia or in one fragment of Somalia who used to hijack match and vessels demand millions and millions of dollars in Ransom before they could release the ships and the sailors this was this is a lawless country South Africa is very far from us from breaking up there is no one who wants to break South Africa up there are no Pirates operating uh out of out of South Africa yes we have criminality uh but but that we can put in the incompetence of our police and of the healthy government uh so the argument of a failed State no we have a failed government we have a failed ANC democratically elected ANC government that is beyond this dispute is beyond debate but many of the things that that the ANC claims credit for are not NC creations that's why I'm saying we look we must look at what the Constitution says the ANC must do and the ANC has failed to do those things let's then talk about if we are to look beyond the ANC who might lead government and I'm asking you this question on the back of a meeting imminent meeting between some opposition parties as led or should we say under the auspices of the democratic Alliance they are wanting to form something that is called a moonshot pact and John steinhazen says at the center of that is going to have to be the Democratic Alliance assuming that he is going to get I guess some votes just a little below the A and C but the ifp leader I spoke to today says well that is a matter of negotiating as to who might lead government should we come to a situation of an election that doesn't give us an outright winner do you think that these are good signs perhaps leading to next year that we have opposition parties already discussing what could be yes well I was surprised by by John Steen Hazen's statements at the D.A Congress saying that the D.A is leading the formation of a coalition it has got an agenda called moonshot a fact and wants to set up something called moonshot Peg the reality is that the opposition part they are 12 if I'm not mistaken opposition parties in Parliament they have been meeting I don't know where Johnstone Hazen has been they have been meeting throughout the last year they have been on visits to foreign countries like Germany like Denmark to go in and learn how Coalition governments are are created and how they operate so so scenes and suddenly jumping out of uh out of the box saying that the D.A is going to create a moon a moon short fact to me sounds very much of narcissism somebody who thinks he's a white knight in shining armor who is going to save South Africa the reality on the 15th of March let me give it a concrete example on the 15th of March I got an invitation from General bantuholamisa the leader of the udm asking me to be a keynote speaker at a meeting of parliamentary opposition parties at the Cape Town in Cape Town of and I went there and I gave my keynote address and the D.A was represented by an African woman who is the chief whip of the D.A all the other parties were there we with their various Representatives John Stan Hazen was not there but the D.A was represented by its Chief whip so the notion that the D.A is is leading a conversation of of our position parties is not correct now there has been many discussions about what to do about 2024 and let's hear what what when this opposition parties meet again and they are scheduled by the way to have a long meeting with the independent intellectual commission about the Electoral laws because our electoral loggers you know are up in the air and that was part of of what came out of the March 15 uh meeting of of opposition parties so I think to sum up really I think the opposition parties realize that each one of them is not big enough to to take on the ANC they have to find a formula for working together if they are going to perform the alternative government of South Africa whoa now that that is not that is not a good diagnostic of where we are Mr mpeggy because if indeed we do end up with a party or with an election result that doesn't give us a clear winner are you suggesting at all that we might see what we are already observing at local government level and that is is pulling from all sides but now that the difference is that that will be playing out at national government well that is one scenario what we are seeing at the Metros in gauteng and he is a scenario obviously a worst case scenario I think we all think uh where there's a Scramble for jobs uh in the mayoral mayor's committee by the ANC and the eff in particular and various Allied parties so so that that is the worst case scenario will they do the same if if they become the majority in National Parliament I think this Stakes are much higher when it comes to National Parliament and I think we a good sense will prevail one of the problems the the the the law the parties that local government they don't really have legislative capacities they don't have much power so they are fighting over problems and and you know the people who fight over crowns the fight over crimes is much more bitter than a fight over the big uh the big cake or over a loaf so so that's what we're seeing people fighting over crumbs wanting to kill each other and killing each other in some instances but when you come to to the National level I think uh the the opposition parties will realize that this is a much bigger cake and it's not worth uh being killed just the slice that you will get from a big k a big cake is more than sufficient to feed you and your family yeah as a Parting Shot let me take advantage of your role as chairperson of the institute for international Affairs and ask the question about where you stand on whether or not South Africa should welcome the Russian President Vladimir Putin if indeed he does decide to attend The brics Summit in Augusta says it's regretful in fact at least on his part as an individual leader that the ANC has backtracked on removing itself or removing the country from the Rome statute the international criminal court what will the The Institute of international Affairs is the think tank it doesn't take positions it is not for us to to take positions in support of this cause or against that cause and support of this party against against that party uh our primary job is to look at the whole story all aspects of the story and to educate the population of South Africa about international relations and about our country's position in the global world that is our job but it's not to take positions of whether Putin should or shouldn't come to South Africa no that's not the job of a think tank your educated guess therefore my my personal educated guess well my personal education if if I listen to the foreign minister when she responded one morning I think she was interviewed on SAS FM and she pointed out that members of the Rome treaty have an option to to amend it not so that they don't arrest heads of state she didn't say that's what South Africa was going to do but she said that's what other members of the room treaty have done so I presumed that's one of the scenarios that the South African government is looking at let me thank you very much for your time chairperson of the South African Institute of international affairs

Channel: Newzroom Afrika

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Length: 18min 46sec (1126 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 11 2023