Is God a Trinity?

[Music] i thought i would cover a subject that's very basic something that many people take for granted and we have a lot of new people over the years and we have young people growing up in the church who may take certain things for granted and think of of these topics as though it's just always been that way and it depends on where you come from you may be coming from outside the church you may be coming in from a protestant or catholic background and you may take a doctrine for granted as though it is true and you may even think that the living church of god believes that doctrine when we do not professing christianity's central doctrine that defines orthodoxy is called the trinity yet this doctrine was not codified until the 4th century a.d it was discussed as early as the 3rd century or the 2nd century actually but it was not really codified until later on late in the 4th century a.d and it has been discussed and gone back and forth on various forms of the trinity ever since that time it has been disputed whether the doctrine is merely a formal statement of what christ and the apostles believed or whether it is a new invention but it should be known that no one can prove that original christianity thought of god as a trinity this brings up the question of the concept of progressive christianity in other words that christian doctrine was not fully set by christ and the apostles but it evolved over a period of time that is something that is generally believed in the world the world's form of christianity that doctrine that the doctrine evolved over a period of several centuries and that it continues to evolve today and there are those who certainly believe that to be the case and that's why we have changing ideas about such things as same-sex marriage homosexuality in general or perhaps transvestism when we look at the churches today even the catholic church the pope has now come out apparently in a an interview that took place some time ago and is saying that we should allow for civil unions of two men or two women and that is a dramatic change in the doctrines of the catholic church and when you think about it that's not all that unusual historically because catholicism has generally gone with the wind and that's why you have christmas and you have easter and you have various other pagan days as they brought them in to bring more people along with them but it is shocking to hear that uh reversal of doctrine uh if that is is actually uh totally reversed one of the scriptures that is fundamental to our understanding is found in the book of jude and this is something that i confess i didn't really understand for many years because i never really thought of it properly but in the book of jude or the letter of jude it's very short there's only one chapter and verses three and four it's a very important and profound statement it says beloved well i was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation i found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints the doctrines in other words once for all delivered to the saints and it's easy for us to think of that because of what we hear sometimes getting back to the faith which was once delivered which is kind of a concept of we need to get back to the 1800s or the early 1900s but when this was written by jude he was talking about getting back to the faith of christ and the original apostles and he says for certain men have crept in unnoticed who long ago were marked out for this condemnation ungodly men who turn the grace of our god into lewdness and deny the only lord god and our lord jesus christ so here we read especially in verse 3 that we are to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints now that does not mean that we will not grow in our understanding of prophecy as an example as we get closer to the end obviously we will other doctrines that sometimes have been lost down through history but it does not transform the bible it doesn't take what the bible says and turn it upside down as some of these doctrines have in more recent years or and actually down through history so this is a foundational understanding that the church must have that the idea of progressive christianity the concept of evolving christianity is not a doctrine of the church in fact it is just the opposite now many of us grew up believing that god is a trinity i have to raise my hand i thought god was a trinity i never thought a lot about it but every week when i went to to church uh when i did go to church uh we gave the apostles creed and said that we believe in the father the son the holy spirit and so forth and and we actually said and believe in the holy catholic church which as a protestant i always thought was strange why am i saying that but that was part of the apostles creed that we we used to read and it was read every day in church it's just one of those rituals you went through at the time but we never really proved the trinity and most people never prove it one way or the other for themselves they just accept it because that's the way it is father son holy spirit okay they're all one but uh you know they're they're not exactly one but they're one some way shape or form we simply accepted that because that's what we were taught that's what our church has taught us now if you're a young person you may not have been taught that if you grew up in the church you didn't but we have many new people around the world that probably never think about this they just assume that we believe the trinity not because they are reprobate or something they just we don't always say much about it we do uh avoid it a little bit on the telecast if we want to stay on the air in fact when i wrote the the booklet on john 3 16 it was a concern because right up front you have to address the subject of god and i know that one of the telecasts that mr ames did it was very delicate in the way he did it and he kind of avoided it while he was discussing the subject and we have to be very careful because what goods it do to get thrown off the air then you can't preach it at all but in our writing we certainly have to and i've been surprised how little pushback we've actually had on the subject but we have television stations that we cannot go on we have halls that we cannot rent camps that we cannot go into because of our doctrine of the trinity we went on i think was called the church channel we were there two or three months and then we were kicked off because some of the supporters knew our doctrine knew where we came from and they complained and we were kicked off that this is a powerful doctrine in modern well not only modern but in professing christianity and it is something that they look at very strongly it is the central doctrine of professing christianity orthodox christianity as we might say but when we go back and we think about it we believed a lot of things that were not biblical that were taught to us by the churches that we attended for example christmas we all understand that that we don't keep christmas and we understand the problems with it we have a booklet on the subject we have a book on the subject of easter we don't keep easter we understand how that was a corruption of the truth the idea that we're that heaven is the reward of the saved we understand that that is not the the truth we we do understand that we go to heaven for a short time for the marriage of the lamb but that's not our reward our reward is right here on this earth and that hasn't changed and of course that's the subject that has been covered in great detail we understand that the wicked are not burning in hell fire to suffer forever and what a comforting understanding that is of the scriptures that the scriptures do not say that we probably grew up some of us with the idea that the law of god had been done away i never really understood that growing up until i started learning the truth and then i had people trying to tell me that that the law has been done away i really didn't know that until after i started learning the truth but i'd grown up in a protestant church and we learned the ten commandments of course we didn't keep the fourth one if i'd grown up as a catholic i wouldn't be keeping the second one because i would have lumped that in with the first one and then only given the shortened form and so icons or idols would not have been an issue as is done there but nevertheless the law of god being done away with is a doctrine that many people believe especially here in the southern part of the united states we believe that sunday was the sabbath day or if not the sabbath day as such it was the day of worship we kind of referred to it as a sabbath even though there was an understanding that the seventh day was the sabbath we could read that i remember asking the question well why do we why do we do that and i was told well you know you're supposed to remember it but we keep sunday you know it didn't make any sense even to a 12 year old or whatever i was at the time so why should we not ask the question about the trinity whether the trinity is correct in scripture or not so today we're going to examine examine the trinity doctrine and see if it is biblical and we'll look at what the bible really says about the nature of god now the problem in defining the trinity doctrine is not small uh it's not fully agreed upon by theologians they're theories concerning the trinity that are bound let me read a little bit from the booklet on john 3 16 on page three and it gives a list of various trinitarian doctrines it says how many people realize the questionable sources from which their ideas arise and how many realize that the concept of the trinity is just as controversial today as it ever was any student of the subject realizes that there are different schools of thought about the nature of the trinity without belaboring the point notice these headings from the online stanford encyclopedia philosophy regarding the trinity these are some of the titles of the the chapters or the the sections modalism latin trinitarianism now under latin trinitarianism it's subdivided into divine life stream theories relative identity theories and then there is social trinitarianism which is divided into functional monotheists social trinitarianism trinity monotheist social trinitarianism uh per pericaretic monotheist social trinitarianism group mind monotheist social trinitarianism and mysterianism and then there is uh another section negative mysterianism and positive mysterianism now those are just some of you know it's hard to even pronounce him you need a dictionary you need to go online to to really realize what these people are saying because they do not agree amongst themselves on the doctrine of the trinity and that's just that's on the surface that's not even covering everything for example when the worldwide church of god began to get off track and they started teaching the trinity they would speak of water being in three forms solid liquid and gas and that was supposed to help us to understand the trinity or they could say a man could be a husband father an employer now that idea is rejected by most of the mainstream churches it's called modalism modalism god is one but has three different modes and even within that there are different ideas different modes for example some think in terms of modalism that you have god the father in the old testament god then came in jesus in other words cease to be exist i guess but he came in jesus and then after jesus was resurrected the holy spirit is god so coming in in three different modes it's all just one god but he came in three different modes the father in the old testament christ the new and then the holy spirit now or you have the other idea that that god is those three different modes but they're always in existence at all times we also saw ideas that were presented such as the the uh a candle which you have the candle and you'll have light and you have heat and light and heat are not the candle itself but creations of it and so this is called arianism and again this has been rejected by the mainstream churches overall the the idea that christ and the spirit are creations of the father that the father took part of himself and made christ and part of that made the holy spirit so according to tertullian he had pictures of this where you have a round figure and then coming out of that is another and then coming out of that is another then there's partialism this is the three leaf clover explanation where they're not distinct persons of the godhead but different parts of the godhead each having a third so it's all just one with in other words it gets into very complicated subtle differences but they are very real differences and these are considered important by different people if you'd like to watch a rather humorous explanation of the trinity uh if you look up lutheran satire i think mr smith turned me on to that lutheran satire and they have a couple irish fellas uh kind of like minions and they're talking to a stained glass window about the trinity and it's it's quite hilarious just look up the trinity under uh satire lutheran satire but actually gives a pretty good explanation of it and how they reject modalism and arianism and partialism there's also latin versus social trinitarianism and oh you probably don't care let me just go ahead and explain it i'm not going to spend too much time on this but it says a very rough this comes from the encyclopedia of stanford encyclopedia philosophy and the article trinity a very rough first approach to the difference between these schools is latin trinitarianism starts with the oneness of god and tries to explain how then god is three whereas social trinitarianism starts with three and tries to show how they're one you know when you when you look at it it's kind of ridiculous because the bible is pretty clear about the nature of god but how is it that orthodox christianity finds itself in such confusion other than the fact that we know who the the god of confusion is the one is the source of confusion but i'd like to read from this article on the stanford encyclopedia a little bit longer quote here but i think it should be very instructive for us it says many thinkers influential in the development of trinitarian doctrines were steeped in the thought not only of middle platonism and neoplatonism but also the stoics aristotle and other current currents in greek philosophy in other words these individuals who developed this doctrine were steeped in the philosophies of pagans when it says middle platonism or neoplatonism they're talking about plato in the middle time as you have early middle and neo or new platonism and so they were steeped in that also the stoics aristotle and other currents in greek philosophy whether one sees this background as a providentially supplied and useful tool or as an unavoidable distorting influence those developing the doctrine saw themselves as trying to build a systemic christian theology on the bible while remaining faithful to earlier post-biblical traditions so we must remain faithful to other post-biblical traditions other traditions that came out after the bible says many also had the aim of showing christianity to be consistent with the best of greek philosophy so let's keep up with the greeks the best philosophy they have so let's and these quotes can be found elsewhere another very good source is erdman's handbook of the history of christianity from about page 131 thereabouts plus or minus a little bit there has a lot of these very interesting quotes showing how the individuals who formed the doctrine of the trinity as well as the doctrine of the immortal soul were heavily influenced by their background and greek philosophy and many of them were philosophers before they became quote christians it goes on to say still it is contested it's a contested issue whether or not the doctrine can be deduced or otherwise inferred from the christian bible and so they say they must turn to it even if the doctrine had a non-christian origin it would not follow that it is false or justified unjustified it could be that through philo or whomever god revealed the doctrine to the christian church now think about that when you when you look at the shaky foundation upon which this doctrine and so many other doctrines are found we ought to be properly skeptical of it and this is good for those who are new but again some of you grew up in the church or are growing up in the church and you need to understand where some of these things come from you need to understand the shaky doctrines that are out there and not be fooled by them because over the time in the worldwide church of god when somebody came along back in the early 1990s and said that well god is like a three-leaf clover or he's like a candle where you have the candle and you have light and you have heat and they began to teach these foolish things and they sounded good on the surface and tens of thousands of people swallowed that hogwash we need to know what the bible truly says now if you'd like more information on the subject of the men who are behind the idea of the trinity and other important things then i send you to uh the book john 3 16 hidden truths the golden verse chapter 1. not that long a chapter but it gives some very useful information and i don't really recommend that you get too deep into the subject you know you can start reading all this stuff out there and it gets into metaphysics and the idea of nature and matter and so forth and you you get into a uh really just a quagmire of ideas and where are you going to learn the truth it's going to be from the church of god you know if you you read there that the the foundation the the bulwark is a living of the church of the living god that's where we're to turn to now you have to prove all these other things in general you have to know where god is working but when we know that christmas and easter and and uh the you know all these other doctrines are incorrect then should we start to look for one doctrine out there as though the world is going to help us to understand it i don't think so now some of the scriptures are used by trinitarians and i the first one i want to mention here is is really understood by most scholars to be inaccurate but there are even some sources that still want to hang on to this passage of scripture and mostly it's people who don't know much of the background of the bible who want to point this out and that is first john 5 and verse 7 and verse 8. so let's turn over there to first john 5 verses 7 and 8 and let's read it for what it says and let's understand it as it should be understood first john 5 7 it says for there are three that bear witness in heaven the father the word and the holy spirit and these three are one now that sounds very trinitarian and there are three that bear witness on earth the spirit the water and the blood and these three agree as one so what is the problem here what is the explanation here well adam clark's commentary was just one of i don't know how many you know how many sources you go to explains the problem it says it is likely this verse is not genuine it is wanting or lacking in every manuscript of this epistle written before the invention of printing one accepted now there's one exception of that the others which omit this verse amount to 112. so you have 112 manuscripts before printing that don't have it and you have one that has it it is wanting in both the syriac all the arabic ethiopic the coptic sahidic uh armenian slavonian etc and a word in all the ancient versions but the vulgate and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct manuscripts have it not it is wanting also in all the ancient greek fathers it's been said i don't know how true this is but i've read this before that even if you didn't have the bible the new testament it is so heavily quoted in other sources that you could actually reconstruct the bible just from the quotes and other sources well whether that's accurate i don't know i haven't tried to prove that one way or the other it's but it has been stated and the point is that you have many other sources besides the direct manuscripts of the bible you have other writings in their quotes and so forth and it's lacking in them and so virtually all scholars recognize that a portion of these verses is spurious it's not to be it should not be there uh gloss i think is the word that they sometimes use they have this uh vocabulary that's used there so how should this read in other words this is what is missing from the the majority of the sources overwhelming majority of the sources and you'll notice that in most of your modern translations this is missing only in the king james the new king james have they hung on to this but even the margin my margin says here it omits the words from in heaven in verse seven through on earth in verse eight only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in greek in other words after the time printing only about four or five have them and most of them do not so here's how it should read verse seven for there are three that bear witness now skip from there all the way down to verse 8 where it says the spirit the water and the blood and these three agree as one now the water and the blood are not persons and so why would we think that the spirit is a person anymore than the others so it should read there are three that bear witness the spirit the water and the blood and these three agree as one they're all saying the same thing or they're all promoting the same concept or idea so this is one of those passages that is very easily shown to be a gloss or a problem that even in the new king james or the old king james if you have a marginal reference it usually shows that these words were not in the originals that there were you know a very few copies and they were much later on that put this in there and so you have to ask the question why why was this section of scripture inserted well i think the obvious answer is they were trying to prove something that they couldn't prove anyplace else just seemed like it was a good place to insert this because talking about three in one and that sort of thing and so it would it would fit in with their their ideas this should not be there another passage that is perhaps a little bit more problematic in in a certain way because it is legitimate is over in matthew the 28th chapter and verse 19. and it doesn't prove a trinity in any way shape or form but it can sound like it here in matthew 28 19 it says go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of or as it should be into the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit now as we explain this when people are being baptized at least i always try to make sure that people understand this that they understand that god is not a trinity you know god the father is the one that calls us jesus christ is the one that died for us that shed his blood on our behalf and the holy spirit is the power that flows out from the father and the son and we'll see that a little bit more as we go through this uh this section but is the power that flows out through which christ can live his life in us that christ lives his life in us by the power of the holy spirit not as a person but by that power so this does not really prove it one way or the other and there are those who who recognize this to be the case that it is is not directly a proof one way or the other but they sometimes quote this as a proof although they really recognize it doesn't prove it now something that bothers i think our members especially as we go through or not bothers but just question a question that comes up uh every year at the passover we read the words of jesus on the night which he was crucified and we often read from the 14th chapter of john the book of john the 14th chapter and verse 36 or yeah 26 i'm sorry beginning verse 26 it says but the helper and my margin has comforter greek paracletos uh the the helper the the original is the paracletos the holy spirit whom the father will send in my name he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that i said to you so here it sounds as though there is a being who is going to come and bring all things to our remembrance and it speaks of him as a person when it says he well notices paracletos and just as in the uh the spanish uh the ending of a noun gives an indication whether it is negative i'm not negative but whether it is masculine or whether it's feminine so if i see in spanish lacia i think that means the chair i think that i'm not saying mr okay i'm seeing somebody not in your head no spanish okay i'm looking back at mr hernandez and i don't know maybe he's he's not nodding his head one way or the other but i i'm pretty sure this uh la cia is the chair now uh it ends with an a and when it ends with an a a noun ends in with an a it's at least most of the time if not always um a feminine noun now a chair we would say what's feminine about a chair well you know even in english we sometimes refer to the the good ship and we say she we really for refer to a ship as a he it's usually she but uh in in some of these other languages nouns express gender masculine feminine or in some cases neutral now if it ends in an o in spanish it's masculine if it ends in an a it is feminine if it ends in e or something else i'll let uh our spanish-speaking brother and tell us about that i think there is kind of a neutral one there but just because it is a masculine or feminine pronoun to match the noun does not mean that it is a person a chair is not a person a house i think la casa uh is not a person and and all the nouns have some sort of la cerveza that's beer uh you know that that's a lot that's that's uh feminine as well although mostly men have traditionally drunk it so what is masculine about beer other than the people that enjoy it so if we understand language the translators have translated it using the pronoun in this case where in most cases they do not give a masculine or feminine pronoun to the nouns but they have in this particular case because that reflects their bias chapter 16 verse 13 when he the spirit of truth has come he will guide you into all truth for he will not speak on his own authority but whatever he hears he will speak and he will tell you things to come now that certainly sounds like a person doesn't it he will glorify me for he will take of what is mine and declare it to you now when we read that oftentimes as ministers we change the he to it recognizing that it is not a person but that really doesn't totally answer the question when we think about it but there is a very valid explanation for it and that's called personification a personification is a verb that means to attribute a personal nature or human characteristics to something non-human now does the bible ever do that well i would say it's doing it here but do we have any examples of it well we do back in the book of psalms as an example let's go back to i'm sorry proverbs the book of proverbs the eighth chapter proverbs 8 and here we have an example of what we call personification it says does not wisdom cry out an understanding lift up her voice now wisdom we we understand is not a person unless you have a person by that name we had a lady up in in the toronto congregation that was named mrs wisdom but most of the time we don't think of wisdom as a person do we and that's not how it's used here it says does not wisdom cry out well human beings animals can cry cry out but how does wisdom cry out an understanding lift up her voice does understanding actually have a voice she takes her stand on the top of the high hill beside the way where the paths meet she cries out by the gates at the entry of the city at the entrance of the doors to you o man i call this speaking of wisdom and understanding to you o men i call and my voice is to the sons of men and then it gives certain advice here from wisdom from understanding so it is using human characteristics for something that is non-human in the ninth chapter we have i've just skipped over the rest of chapter eight but let's go on to the ninth chapter of proverbs and verse one it says wisdom has builded or built her house she has hewn out her seven pillars now how does wisdom build her house well in in this case it's saying wisdom is a she and she has built her house she has hewn out her seven pillars she has slaughtered her meat she has mixed her wine she has also furnished her table she has sent out her maiden she cries from the highest places of the city whoever is simple let him turn in here as for him who lacks understanding she says to him come eat my bread so we see here that that wisdom is personified and when we really understand the holy spirit in the book of john and we understand the nature of the holy spirit from other scriptures that are very clear about it we realize that john was using personification there now can we absolutely say that it's personification and that uh personification proves that the trinity trinity is not true not necessarily but when we look at all of the evidence we see that personification is certainly the best explanation of this i'd like to read again from john 3 16 hidden truths of the golden verse i'm going to uh read concerning these chapters in in john where it seems to where it personifies the holy spirit this is on page 7 the the bottom half of it says now does anyone think wisdom is a person of course not says does personification by itself prove that the holy spirit is not a person perhaps not if that were the only reason for such belief but there are many other reasons not to ascribe personhood to the holy spirit additionally we must note that the holy spirit is seen as being poured out do we normally think of a person as being poured out acts the 10th chapter verse 45 and as the power of god that's from luke the first chapter verse 35. or romans 15 13 you don't have to try to keep up write all these things down just go to the you know the bottom half of page seven and it gives you all the verses it is also described metaphorically as wind that's found in acts 2 verse 2 and john 20 verse 22 and water john 7 verses 37 to 39 when jesus said he would send the helper in john 14 he finished the thought in the next verse verse 18 where it says i will not leave you orphans i will come to you now that's a very uh critical point there he said i'm not going to leave you orphans i will come to you the holy spirit is the power that flows out from god the father and jesus christ it is the agent through which christ would come to them so it says i'm not going to leave you orphans i'm going to give you the holy spirit and i will come to you in other words come to you by the power of the holy spirit and through which paul could proclaim christ lives in me galatians 2 20. it is the spirit of truth that will guide us into truth that's found in john 16 verses 13 and 14. it's a spirit of truth that will guide us into truth just as wisdom instructs us back in proverbs the ninth chapter so i again i i just recommend that you read that booklet if you haven't or review it because it gives some very important information that helps us to understand the very nature of god and what it is not we also have other evidence for example paul's and john's epistles if you look at romans the first chapter romans 1 and in verse 7 says to all who are in rome beloved of god this is romans 1 7 called to be saints and then he says grace to you and peace from god our father and the lord jesus christ now that's a little bit of an insult to the holy spirit of the holy spirit as a person because paul leaves him out he says from god the father and the lord jesus christ but he doesn't say anything about grace to you and peace from the holy spirit you know that's interesting because in 13 of paul's epistles he uses the same expression or a very similar expression at the beginning as part of his greetings grace and peace to you from god our father and the lord jesus christ notice over in first corinthians now this is this is verse 7 of romans but it is always within the first seven verses usually the second and third verse and in one case at least the first verse he says that but notice over in first corinthians the first chapter verse 3 he says grace to you and peace from god our father and the lord jesus christ so there again the holy spirit is left out and 13 times the apostle paul out of his 14 letters we include hebrew hebrews 13 times he addresses his audience whether it be the church or whether it be timothy or titus he addresses them sending peace and grace from god our father and the lord jesus christ and never once refers to the holy spirit what an insult if the holy spirit is a person but it's a pretty good indication that the apostle paul didn't think of of the holy spirit as a person what about first john 1. first john 1. this is one that we don't always think of but it's a very important statement here first john 1 and in verse 3 it says that which we have seen and heard we declare to you that you may have fellowship with us and truly our fellowship is with the father and with his son jesus christ no trinity here our fellowship is with one another and with god the father and with jesus christ but there's nothing stated there about our fellowship of the holy spirit in that context it speaks of the fellowship of the spirit elsewhere but in other words god's spirit in us the christ and the father but he does not address his audience in that way what about mark the first chapter of matthew the first chapter let me try that again matthew 1 here is a bit of a problem depending on which form of the trinity you believe in i guess you believe in the four-leaf clover it's possible although it's problematic really for all of them in matthew the first chapter and verse 20 matthew 1 20 but while he thought this is joseph about these things behold an angel of the lord appeared to him in a dream saying joseph son of david do not be afraid to take to mary your wife for that which is conceived in her is of the holy spirit now if the holy spirit is a person then the holy spirit is the father of jesus but if the holy spirit is a power that flows out from god then we can understand this properly but it's a problem for the trinity now you say that and trinitarians say well you just don't understand the trinity i have yet to hear how that changes the discussion but the fact is our response would be well do you understand the trinity because obviously based on theologians and scholars they don't agree about the trinity so we're in pretty good company i guess if we don't understand the trinity it's a you know as a straw man it it is not the right argument there that you don't understand the trinity no if the uh if christ is conceived of the holy spirit then the holy spirit would be the father not the father it's a bit of a problem whether they accept that or not is another matter so what does the bible actually tell us about the nature of god what is the nature of god how can we understand the way that god is well in the january february tomorrow's world january february 2009 article by dr roderick c meredith titled who was the god of the old testament he says genesis 1 1 we read in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth so scholars know that the hebrew word are all scholars know that the hebrew word here translated god is elohim a plural noun like church or family as would signify one family with several members and now notice genesis 1 and verse 26 it says then god said let us make man in our image according to our likeness let them have dominion over the fish of the sea over the birds the air over the cattle over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth i was trying to figure that out a little bit in the sermonette where where mr uh dawson was going and i finally figured out okay he's talking about what happened on the sixth day maybe he said that i just missed it but he's talking about the sixth day the preparation day for the sabbath very interesting point that he's making there but uh we have this passage here over you know subdue all these things he says note that god said let us make man in our image so the father and the logos or word who later was born as jesus of nazareth were both included here acting for the one we call god the father the one who became jesus christ was used by the father from the beginning in dealing with mankind now i would refer you to that article again that's the 2009 tomorrow's world january february who is the god of the old testament by dr meredith that's a profound truth that we understand that even scholars in the world should know whether they'll admit it but they never you know say it that way i never learned that when i was coming up in in the protestant religion i've never heard any any protestants say that although i'm sure that there are those who know it but they leave that out because they want to make the god of the old testament harsh cruel but now jesus comes along and he's the god of love when reality there's verse after verse that shows us that jesus was the god of the old testament first corinthians the tenth chapter and verse four and that rock that followed them was christ speaking of in the wilderness it's it's interesting i got an email this morning from some individual out there and i forget he had three letters after his name and they stood for something like a personal uh research institute or something whatever it was and he was trying to do away with first john with uh first corinthians the tenth chapter verse four he was trying to show that it meant something that it didn't and um so the whole subject was uh who who was the rock that christ was speaking of in matthew 16. it's amazing how many individuals out there have their own ideas they don't agree with hardly anybody else but they've got their own ideas and we we have people from time to time that come up with a new doctrine that they want to promote and they think that it's it's the exact truth even though nobody else agrees with them we had a an individual one area that came up with this really cockeyed ideas writing a book it was 184 pages i think last i heard and he was still working on it but he admitted that nobody in any church really agreed with his at least any of the churches of god agreed with him but after 30 years in the church and he was in his 70s at the time probably closer to 80 now he's off on this tangent and thinking he's the only person that understands these things it's it's amazing how people do not understand how god works and he doesn't just use anybody to come up with some new profound doctrine we see in scripture two clearly distinct pers personalities in the bible how refreshing it is when we read john the first chapter and verse one and i know you're all familiar with this but it's so refreshing when you when you delve into trinitarianism and you read all these conflicting ideas and then you just read what god says in his word verse 1 john 1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god now the word here is logos in the beginning was the logos and the logos was with god and the logos was god he was in the beginning with god all things were made through him and without him nothing was made that was made in him was life and the life was the light of men now my wife and i are both western uh she is carol weston and i'm gerald weston uh we're one family uh you know just two of us but we're family that relationship one marriage so we're both western we're two separate people but we're one family and when we understand that in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god that's not that all that difficult to understand he was in the beginning with god and all things were made through him and without him nothing was made that was made so the word the logos was the one who made all things and we could turn to hebrews the first chapter first few verses we could turn to ephesians 3 verse 9. you could turn over to first corinthians 10 verse 4. there there are a number of scriptures that show that jesus christ was the god of the old testament we know that no one has seen god the father at any time you read that in the book of uh john the first chapter in the fifth chapter no one's seeing god at any time but we know that that the the children of israel 74 people moses uh aaron nadab abihu and 70 the elders saw the god of israel and ate and they were able to live and so they saw jesus christ the one who became jesus christ the logos the spokesman in an unglorified state so that he didn't you know strike him dead or they didn't fall dead as soon as they saw him and they ate and they saw god so we see that there are two beings and very clearly when jesus says here in john the first chapter verse 18 no one has seen god at any time the only begotten son who is in the bosom of the father he has declared him we recognize that when it says no one has seen god he's talking about the one who is the father and yet we know that they saw god in the old testament so it had to be the one who became jesus christ notice over in psalm 110 psalm 110 here's an interesting passage that the scribes and the pharisees somehow missed in all of their studies it says the lord or yahweh or the eternal said to my lord or to my master sit up my right hand till i make your enemies your footstool so david is speaking here of yahweh or the the lord said to my lord sit at my right hand till i make your enemies your footstool this was quoted in the new testament jesus quoted it in chapter 22 of matthew matthew 22 and verse 41. it says while the pharisees were gathered together jesus asked him saying what do you think about the christ whose son is he and they said to him the son of david and he said to them how then does david in the spirit called him lord saying the lord said to my lord sit up my right hand till i make your enemies your footstool if david then calls him lord how is he his son so we see that the messiah looked to a higher uh power or a a different you know the one that was over him and so he he spoke of him in that way and david under inspiration wrote this so we see two beings very clearly shown there in this passage now in luke the 11th chapter luke 11 and verse 2 we have the what is called the lord's prayer luke 11 verse 2. so he said to them when you pray say our father in heaven hallowed be your name your kingdom come and it goes on from there so he says our father who is in heaven jesus is saying that his father was in heaven and so you pray to the father in heaven but where was christ he was on this earth we also see this in matthew the 6th chapter in verse 9 our father in heaven in other words you have a difference in location between the father and the son and when you read through the new testament any of the four gospels that is is very evident that there are two different locations for the father and the son when christ looked up to heaven and prayed the relationship between the father and the son let's notice that the trinity says that all are equal and the athanasian creed it says and in this trinity no one is before or after greater or less than the other but all three persons are in themselves co-eternal and co-equal and so we must worship the trinity in unity and the one god and three persons whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the trinity in other words if you don't understand their view of the trinity then you're not going to be saved i guess and yet the apostles didn't seem to understand the trinity they they didn't write as though god was three persons so i guess they may must not be saved but let's notice john the fifth chapter john 5. and we'll begin in verse 19. john 5 and verse 19. jesus answered and said them most so surely i say to you the son can do nothing of himself what he sees the father do for whatever he does the son also does in like manner so jesus clearly is subordinate to the father but what he sees the father do for whatever he does the son also does in like manner for the father loves the son and shows him all things that he himself does and he will show him greater works than these that you may marvel for as the father raises the dead and gives life to them now you know if if the father and son of the holy spirit like the three leaf clover i guess or uh like several other forms of modalism you've got a real problem because if christ died who raised him up did he resurrect himself no he was resurrected by the father for the father loves the son and shows him all things that he himself does and he will show him greater works than these that you may be saved for as a father raise raises the dead and gives life to them even so the son gives life to whom he will for the father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the son you remember back in genesis the 18th chapter when abraham was speaking to the one who became jesus christ he said shall not the the judge of all the earth do justly the judge of all the earth that's genesis 18 verse 25 so he's committed all judgment to the son he's committed that to him now when you think about that did they they vote on it or did they the father give him that authority to do it that all should honor the son just as they honor the father he who does not honor the son does not honor the father who sent him let's notice verse 26 he says for as the father has life in himself so he has granted the son to have life in himself he's granted that that permission as it were and has given him authority to execute judgment also because he is the son of man notice verse 30 i can of myself do nothing as i hear i judge and my judgment is righteous because i do not seek my own will but the will of the father who sent me remember back in john 3 16 for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son we see that relationship between father and son and that well they may agree on certain things nevertheless it is the father that is a greater than the sun not just on the when the sun was on this earth but we see that relationship all the way through notice verse 36 he says but i have a greater witness than john's for the works which my the father has given me to finish very works that i do bear witness of me that the father has sent me notice the father has sent him and the father himself who sent me has testified of me you have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form there again we go back to the time when when the elders of israel saw god the god of the old testament so very clearly we see this relationship of father and son or two beings in the godhead one in the superior position let's notice another point here john 14 28 john 14 and verse 28 and this makes it very very clear when they say co-equals john 14 28 says you have heard me say to you i am going away and coming back to you if you love me you would rejoice because i said i am going to the father for my father is greater than i now some of these passages we've read someone could say well that's only when he was on the earth but here he's saying he's going to go to his father and the implication is that even in that relationship my father is greater than i that's what jesus said and yet the trinitarians say that they are co-equals no one greater than the other which is a direct contradiction of this passage now what about the oneness of god let's go back to deuteronomy 6. this is the most important verse at least among many jews if not all uh this passage here and verse four hear o israel the eternal our god the eternal is one that's what scripture says that god the eternal is one so how do we understand the nature of christ how does if you have just one being does that not fit into the trinitarian concept of all being one somehow well let's go back to the book of john the 10th chapter john 10. you know john was probably dealing with some of these issues when he wrote toward the end of the first century already there were heresies coming up and he was dealing with some of these things and he's explaining the nature of the father and the son and so he says here in verse 30 he says i and my father are one that's jesus speaking i and my father are one now we've already seen that he described god the father is being in heaven and he was here on this earth and it was the father who would have raised him from the dead he didn't raise himself so what does he mean i and my father are one we have to understand the concept of oneness according to the bible let's go over to the 14th chapter of john and verse 8 john 14 and verse 8. philip said to him lord show us the father and it is sufficient for us and jesus said to him i have have i been with you so long and you have not known me philip he who has seen me has seen the father so how can you say show us the father do you not believe that i am in the father and the father and me the words that i speak to you i do not speak on my own authority but the father who dwells in me does the works now how did the father dwell in him well in the same way that he said that the father would dwell in them through the comforter of the holy spirit god's spirit he said believe me that i am in the father and the father in me or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves now how do we understand all this this is this could be an enigma to to us but then in john the 17th chapter and it helps you to understand why when worldwide got off track they shortened the passover service to leave out the words of jesus on the night in which he was crucified and eventually they got down to the old protestant catholic view of the eucharist or the lord's supper and some celebrate it you know you know several times a year or every every week whatever it might be depending on where they are i suppose but john really makes it very clear what christ does as john records his words in john 17 verse 20 he said i do not pray for these alone in other words his disciples of that time but also for those who believe in me through their word and that's you and that's me because we believe because of of their preaching and down through the ages it comes down to this time and we are the result of what they they did at in the first century he says verse 21 john 17 21 that they all may be one as you father are and me and i in you that they also may be one in us that the world may believe that you sent me so we are to be one now as i look out here i don't see a big blob i i see some bald heads i see some gray heads i see some young people i i see different colors of dresses and suits and everything else i see a lot of different people and yet he was praying that we would all be one does that mean we're supposed to give everybody a group hug is that what he's talking about here he says that they all may be one as you father are in me and i in you that they also may be one in us so we are to be one with god the father and jesus christ that the world may believe that you sent me and the glory which you gave me i have given them that they may be one just as we are one just as we are one now that's a pretty profound statement but i think that we we can begin to see is talking about in mind and spirit and approach in the direction that we're going now we don't reach that perfection in this life do we we all come up short in many different ways but that is what christ was praying that we would all be one we would all be unified together doing the work of god that's what he was was praying here that we would think the same in terms of the overall direction of things we're all individuals we all have different you know personalities different character but you know our character should be more and more like christ but we are to be one just as they are one now if we understand the oneness of how we are to be one then we can understand how god the father and jesus christ are one they're just far more perfect in that in that oneness you know being in each other in terms of their thinking and the direction and their purpose uh in this this they say this world this this eternity in reality so that is such a clear statement just as john 1 1 verses 1 to 4 that you know in the beginning was the word and the word was with god the word was god and so forth and when you take that and you put it here with the oneness of god it's not that difficult to understand but when you delve into the the uh the world of trinitarianism it gets really really complex and goofy and you can get into all kinds of arguing and fighting over you know modalism and social trinitarianism and latin trinitarianism and all the different forms of it or you can simply believe the words that god has given us you know the trinity doctrine in reality denies that we can enter the family of god because it is a closed godhead it flies in the face of everything that we understand of the very purpose of life to be born into the very family of god you know there are so many things that we haven't covered here as an example when it says there in genesis that let us make man in our likeness in our image how can we be in the likeness of a trinity think about it if god is a trinity in whatever form you want to make him how can we be in his likeness and in his image well they say well we just have a mind like god well you know stop and think about it there's so much more that could be said i would like to refer you to your ultimate destiny where it shows what god is calling us for the very purpose of our being why we are alive and what our hope is the resurrection to be born in the very family of god and that is cut off by the doctrine of the trinity because it is a closed godhead that no one else can enter and that's that's really stated in their their dogs i haven't read that but but uh i mean i haven't read it to you but it it's closed no one can enter in in any way shape or form and so it denies the very purpose of our existence the trinity doctrine is found nowhere in the bible as many advocates of the doctrine freely admit they do freely admit it can't be found the old testament and new testament evidence is a bit shaky although there are some who would like to say it is it really comes out of pagan philosophies pagan ideas it's a doctrine formulated long after the first century true apostles it's a confusing and possible to understand doctrine it's called a strict mystery in catholicism a mystery is something that you cannot understand it's a strict mystery it's controversial even to this day as to how to explain it yet it is a central doctrine of professing christianity and most people accept it without question not understanding it or knowing anything about its difficulties they just believe in the trinity not even realizing how much amongst their own scholars they squabble and fight over the nature of the trinity and ultimately when you understand the implications of this doctrine it denies what the bible clearly shows as our ultimate destiny the very purpose of our lives [Music] you

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