Is Gandalf A Mary Sue? - Ep. 69 of Intentionally Blank

[Music] hey hey hey guess what what an episode started oh wow so uh I do have a food Heist good sort of I have food theft food theft okay I don't know how heisty this is all right so this is in Japan okay Central Japan in fact yamanashi prefecture city of fuafuki uh-huh someone has stolen approximately 5 000 peaches in fact I think it's actually more than that it's a lot of peaches since June 15th uh-huh a total of 14 400 peaches have been stolen which uh is that's a way lot of peaches that's a lot of peaches that's 3.87 million yen and about 28 400 U.S okay uh and this article is old this article is from oh June 22nd so that was one week worth of peach thefts uh and it's probably a lot more since then and I've just had this in my phone waiting for its day they haven't caught them yet no well at least as of June 22nd they had got him uh I I don't do a lot of rigorous uh journalism we can't tell I I find uh cool articles this one somebody sent to me and it's just been in my phone um so maybe I will at some point look this up and say hey how many more peaches have been stolen but there's like uh people keep stealing all these peaches here's the thing about the peaches you gotta offload those quick right like it's not like stealing the oil no you can you can just sit there for money for the heat to come off wait you know hide around the corner a couple years later be like hey I got I got some stuff no these people the peaches they gotta move uh they the city has hired 70 people to patrol the peach Orchards to make sure that nobody can steal the peaches um and so yeah there's just all of these little Peach thefts going on and it says here [Music] it says this this is a quote from the uh governor of yamanashi he says this is an extremely vicious and heinous crime and I don't know what's vicious about it like if they you know chewed apart tree branches while they were stealing the peaches or what uh but uh it cannot be tolerated so yeah um I'm going to look up right now that sounds like Japan so Japanese Peach right like theft and we'll see if there's more up to date others are stealing Red Bulls you know or rancid oil Japan they're stealing peaches and it is okay August 12 a thousand peaches stolen from Fukushima Orchard that's the actually that's the Bell we have every time peaches gets stolen in Japan that goes off yeah it's been so that we can stay on top of it loud and it has not shut up for the whole summer it's been amazing so anyway uh yeah Peach thefts continue a pace more at 10. I think the peach thieves get to be pretty high on our hierarchy right like well they were extremely vicious and heinous you would think they're like peaches yeah whatever but the person who steals peaches this is this sort of quiet uh sort of very dangerous person that you know they get in there and you're like I'm not messing with them I don't know why they wanted those peaches you know are they dangerous or did they just grow up on media that normalized the theft of peaches like did they listen to a song that said millions of peaches peaches for me millions of peaches peaches for free and totally misinterpret it and then they just don't know how to interact with a plausible these peaches are not for you kind of society you know um speaking of that it reminds me that I have to make a correction to a previous Heist discussion okay so um Lex Luthor did not steal any pies he did not he stole cakes he stole 50 cakes 40 40. it is not quite as bad a crime as I thought he stole 40 cakes though okay you know you can argue that a cake is uh is um maybe I don't know which is more more valuable okay I think that uh your brain made the conversion already right 40 cakes to 50 pies so every pie is worth slightly less than one cake right so yeah I was looking into this just to double check myself and I discovered that there are multiple times in current DC Canon where his theft of 40 cakes has been mentioned really by other characters that's amazing and so it is DC Canon that at one point he stole 40 cakes so it was not just for like the kids coloring book yep it is decent it's been just for the kids coloring book but then that was quoted like I saw some of the panels one of them was he was a kid in school and he was mad at the administration so he stole the cakes that were going to be for a party that they were doing okay and so uh but another one was just like do you know he stole 40 cakes and the other one's like 40 cakes and like and the first guy's like yeah that's terrible uh just like in the thing um that's amazing uh what that tells me is that someone else some writer saw the same thing you did yeah and then was like I can't wait till I become a writer for DC because I am going to bring this up again yep and uh you can find some pretty excellent cosplays at conventions of Lex Luthor stealing 40K Lex Luthor with his 40 kicks yeah okay so uh thumbs up to that uh sweet and the whole book is really interesting I found other scans from it from other superheroes doing things that were also very interesting involving learning and math and so uh I recommend it you can look it up yeah everyone go look that up all right we're educational here so uh we thought we were so clever me having your phone to do this my phone it has turned itself off you may just hit the button or double tap there there's a button double tap the screen oh my gosh you don't have it locked I did not don't announce that to the whole world anyone who wants to steal Brandon's phone it's unlocked I find screen locking the most annoying thing uh and so it means I can't do any of the credit card stuff because they won't let you unless your screen has a a password on it oh I I use my phone so much this is to me it's like you know having to type in a code before I take my glasses off to clean them or right like you don't have to do that it is just that's weird like having a cup of water and like before I drink I have like it is so inconvenient to us to have this well yeah but like the thumb print thing I don't even notice they don't work mine does they work mine does unless I'm cold so here's and then it like won't they work for me my experience is just they work like four out of five times maybe nine out of ten times but that one time is exceptionally aggravating uh and so I love the idea I've done it you are not bothered by dental surgery yeah but you are driven to a rage by one time out of ten yeah failing to unlock your phone on the first try and the other thing is uh there are some people you could call on that phone that would be very embarrassing for you to get a hold of uh and so I don't have my credit card information in there but you know you you want to you want to drop a phone call to various celebrities there in my phone so uh so don't do that um I did for a time uh because we were cheap uh shared a single phone account with my daughter yeah and we had two different phones but they were on the same thing and that meant that she had my full contact list right and I'm like okay here's the phone if you call Brandon yeah if you call James Dashner if you call John Delancey on my phone you're grounded for life yep so that never happened okay so anyway the reason that I have your phone yes is because we have a giant quiz with you said like 150 questions I don't know how many is it's a lot of questions so this is I've known this quiz for years okay um this is the most famous Mary Sue quiz on the internet back from the early 2010s uh back when the kind of Mary Sue fervor hit fandom where everyone was worried that their characters were Mary Sue's and you had these these quizzes pop up and this is a really in-depth one kind of tongue-in-cheek cheek but you don't do anything this extreme without uh without being really into it yeah and uh we mentioned briefly on the podcast before Mary Seuss um but I want to kind of I want to do an episode about this because I think Mary Sue and I'm I'm not in the minority anymore a lot of people kind of come around to this yeah I think Mary Sue is a meaningless distinction um that is really uh really it's just useless to talk about and it annoys me that's become so much a part of the discourse in fact the very person who created this list has a disclaimer saying I don't think a Mary Sue is a very good indication of whether a character is a good character or not uh instead you should be looking at what is your character's role in the story and are they fulfilling it which uh kudos to the creator of this quiz you hit it earlier than a lot of us did picking up that this is but I remember being very panicked that my characters might be Mary Sue's yeah um and if you don't know what a Mary Sue is or a Gary stew or whatever it's this idea that in fiction a lot of people would write fan fiction and and put their own self-insert character into the fan fiction and their self-insert character would be hyper-confident all the characters would fall in love with them and um and these two everything first try they're amazing it's this idea of a self-insert kind of pipe dream character uh and I think it is Meaningful that it's Mary Sue because it was very gendered criticism at the time is oh look at these dumb women writing their dumb fan fiction it very much was a huge part of it is a big part of the misogyny behind the term yes nobody was looking at uh at James Bond who checks all these boxes and being you know it took a while 100 of Mary Sue character and the other thing about this is um so what right like if you're writing a fanfic because it feels cool to you to have um to be part of this world and to have an A Wish fulfillment fantasy well guess what a lot of great fiction is wish fulfillment fantasy oh yeah um and there's you know maybe you didn't write it very well but that's not the purpose and yes at some points a character who is too competent in the wrong story can undermine uh the story but and I don't disagree with some of the complaints about some fiction characters um being too competent and therefore undermining the tension of scenes this is a real good discussion to be having about making characters and and plots more interesting but as soon as you toe out Mary Sue then it gets dismissive it gets attacking and it gets very um it just undermines the entire conversation uh in ways that make it completely unhelpful and so to kind of prove this or to maybe maybe we'll be wrong uh I I came up with a very clickbait title for our uh for our episode is Gandalf a Mary Sue is Gandalf of Mary's yeah and I think we're gonna use that and then people are going to rage in the comments not watching the episode uh before they really realize that you kind of even see it because we're already 12 minutes into this and they're they they have had to sit through so much talk of peaches and cakes yes uh but now let's get into this so get into it let's start asking some questions and you can skip the ones that don't seem to apply very much um or you well well yeah I'll at least address them so part one all characters yeah this area applies to RPG characters fan fiction characters and original fiction characters question number one is does your character's name uh is it a variation of your own name is it a variation of J.R.R Tolkien yeah I don't think I'm gonna guess no so we're not gonna check that we're not going to check is it a name that he planned on giving one of his children or is it the name of his actual child is there any Gandalf uh children Gandalf Tolkien no I don't know no no um so good good on you not a merry suit your character's name taken deliberately from a character from another fandom that you like uh his main fandom was Beowulf yes and Finnish literature I'm gonna say yes and so I think yes Gandalf does come from that yeah absolutely Mission Welsh yeah 100 yeah uh does your character have an unusual or exotic name chosen primarily because it sounded exotic extra pretty or to make your character stand out more yes Gandalf mithrandir every name in Lord of the Rings is chosen because it sounds it sounds cool right uh is your character's name not merely mildly unusual but very unusual for your character's place and situation I.E a medieval English princess named Sakura so I think this one is a no yeah because I think in the context Daniel went well out of his way to make all the names fit yes um and so then this is one of the things I I for this test you have to take that context into account Gandalf is not that odd of a name for the world he's in yes okay uh now moving on from names did you deliberately base your character's looks on your own kind of think he did do ya I kind of like an old man who smokes a pipe yeah he did I think okay arguably he based Frodo on himself and Bilbo on himself more so than Gandalf but a wise old scholar who is a librarian by trade and who who smokes a pie play yeah yeah okay based him on himself yeah does your character look how you wish you looked I don't know I'm gonna go yes come on because who doesn't who doesn't wish they looked like Gandalf yes I wish I did I wish I did there we go okay yeah I'm projecting onto Tolkien here that he's like okay that this Gandalf is me but taller and cooler you got to wear a cool hat and carry a cool staff like come on he could have he could have maybe um yeah do you did you deliberately base your character's appearance on your own child or someone who you wish was your own child I don't think so no uh is your character described Illustrated or depicted as looking especially beautiful handsome or cute with little to no effort I don't think so no the rest of the elves yes we could have checked that on most elves but Gandalf's not looking cute uh does anyone become distracted or enraptured by your character by Gandalf's looks no boy we should do this for the elves then this section does anyone fight or squabble over Gandalf because of his looks no probably not I mean people fight over him but not because of his look yeah uh is anyone including you jealous of Gandalf's good looks no man we should have done this for Aragorn do any characters see Gandalf's attractiveness as a threat now I'm happy with big candles sorry man probably he's like oh he gets to be gray well then I'm The Many Colored uh does anyone sincerely praise her comment upon how cute beautiful handsome Gandalf is or refer to Gandalf as such when talking about or to your character outside of lovemaking showing affection or trying to cheer Gandalf up this is my favorite episode of this show oh man no no one ever does can you imagine that that deleted scene will hurt you now the salmon photo or conversing and they're like man that Gandalf though that candle hey man I'm not gonna say anything else okay does this include any no no no no no uh does your K does Gandalf have a great in italics body or physique which you describe show and or illustrate in detail so here's the thing his nose yes his face here's the thing this is like a halfway because Gandalf is depicted as an old man yes you give him a sword and he shows you what kind of physique he has right he this is this is I assume combat prowess is going to show up later no but I'm talking about the physique right like he under those robes he looks like an Adonis because you see how well he can fight he he holds his own next to Aragorn yes in some sword fighting place like this is Fabio with a beard and a nose yeah I don't know if you can check this one but I want to make that point that you know uh if Gandalf were wearing such baggy clothing I am gonna check the sub question to this that says uh does he have an incredible physique despite the fact that he never eats right or exercises yes okay that's a good that's a good halfway point there we go we're not going to check all of these but we're going to give him a point like when when you make your 90 old man able to kill Orcs then yeah yeah I will say the next question which doesn't apply to him yes uh does Gandalf weigh so little that he could be taken for anorexic but isn't and it's meant to be taken as a compliment it's terrible that that's part of the Mary Sue thing okay is Gandalf explicitly described shown Illustrated as a specially tall or petite tall yes yeah even among men he is considered very tall yep uh is Gandalf strong enough to wield a huge weapon like a Warhammer giant gun a huge sword yet has a wayfish figure instead of unattractive bulging muscles we just talked about that yes he wields a sword like a boss yep ah do you use poetic and will already do you use poetic and or creative terms to describe Gandalf but virtually no one else oh no no okay everyone gets destroyed everyone yep uh do you frequently describe Gandalf's beautiful handsome cute attributes or point out how sexy he is no uh do you go to Great Lengths describing how your character is not gorgeous um not on this one um yeah does Gandalf explicitly look like or strongly resemble an attractive real-life celebrity in story no no no no Ian McAllen does not exist in story that's to its death like if everyone who saw Gandalf said oh man he looks just like Gil gallet or something which I I bet does happen if we were to reread it I'm sure Aragorn is described as looking like somebody else yes uh okay do other characters find Gandalf extremely attractive and desirable even when he should be completely gross and icky IG after battling getting tortured Etc no no and the character doesn't have a kink for that kind of yes okay like if someone's just really into muddy people yeah then that doesn't count I know Gollum though Gollum yeah okay does your character have any of the following uh natural eye coloration not normally found in their racer species I don't think so I don't know any Tolkien fish has gray eyes yeah okay and all of the astari have like their different own different colored eyes so I don't know okay that counts all right eyes with other unusual qualities does he I don't think so I don't know we might be getting some of these wrong we don't know our eyes or eyes Galadriel does yes uh natural hair color not normally found in their racer species no an unusual feature of any kind such as a birthmark tattoo blood color the nose the nose anything else there's actually five boxes five boxes it says one box for each so are there any others just the nose just the notes I think he only gets one point on this does Gandalf have a particularly attractive or pleasant scent that does not come from perfume Colonial shampoo he might and Mary and Pippin are walking by like oh get a load of that Gandalf smell okay does Gandalf have a scar or other small flaw that is noticed by someone but does not actually detract from their appearance no I'm gonna give that one a no we've already given you a point for the nose that's probably enough uh has Gandalf been in a lot of physical fights and or battles but doesn't have many noticeable scars to show for it yes uh does Gandalf have a particular piercing haunting captivating or dazzling gaze yes uh do you describe show and or detail uh illustrate in detail your Gandalf's outfits in full detail even when the details have no bearing on the plot yes yes yeah I mean come on he arguably does that with every character but it didn't say that that one is unusual exactly does Gandalf's personal choice of clothing frequently include clothing that you deliberately picked from your own wardrobe clothing you chose because you really wished you owned it or could get away with wearing it in public I mean we have to give this one a yes right do we Okay we we already gave him one point yeah we should not give a second point on that okay clothing you chose because it makes your character look super sexy and or badass I mean that has become a very kind of awesome wizard thing because of him one point on the clothes because his costume is so iconic and distinctive somewhere in here the cool hat um and the robe and the beer the next question uh clothing that is realistically impractical improper or inappropriate for the character situation but looks cool I kind of feel like he gets that one okay let's give him he has a big huge robe like that's not what you would wear to battle to go yeah to battle to go marching across you know hundreds of leagues right whatever there's our costume one there there might be others but I feel better that we've given Gandalf impervious to any of the normal limitations and or weaknesses of his species I mean he can't even die see here's but I don't know if any of the Wizards can I think that we have to in this um now this might get us some hate in the comments I think we have to pretend Gandalf is a human and he's a human that has been that tolkien's like we have to have an excuse for why he's so awesome he is one of the Mayar is that what he is or the Anar einar I think he's uh he's my R he's my art okay yeah so no I think you're right because this is the same thing Spock does right like Spock is amazing and nothing can hurt him and he has a million medical reasons for why he's awesome and allegedly every Vulcan is like that but in terms of the show he's just the awesome dude it looks like a human except he's Immortal impervious has magic and yeah then we're clicking that one yeah uh does Gandalf belong to an exotic or unusual race or species with powers abilities Beyond human or whatever then yeah okay yes yep uh is your character in a lot of these see and we just did too like we'll treat him as a human but also he's not a human yeah so we got yes on both because we're double dipping yep is Gandalf a crossbreed or hybrid of any kind no no I've heard of two or more species no um there's several questions about this does he have all the weaknesses none of the strengths no yeah um I will point out that my book a night of black or darkness is about a guy who has all of the the vampires have all the weaknesses and none of the strengths yes which is Auntie Mary Sue going in there uh okay uh if not a cross breed then is your character cross-cultural because you believe it makes your character more interesting or exotic no no I don't think I'm gonna get any of this cultural stuff okay does Gandalf belong to a species that typically has an appearance or exhibits behaviors that you and or most people in real life would find unattractive or unappealing but your character looks or acts more human for some reason that's the orc question yeah I'm gonna go no on this like that's specifically for you know they've made all Klingons uh repulsive but then suddenly Worf is cool right um uh does Gandalf become a genetically scientifically cybernetically supernaturally or magically altered enhanced being possibly with new powers and or better looks yes that's a defining feature happier this way yes uh do people like him better this way yeah sure uh do you wish it would happen to you I am pretty sure Tolkien wishes that after he died in a pit he could come back to life yes yes yes um think of your character as a role model yes yeah he was clearly presented as a role model uh does Gandalf voice political social and or religious opinions or beliefs which you share uh Gandalf does actively oppose the mechanization that Saruman represents and that was one of tolkien's hobby horses so yes does he convince others that his way of thinking is right yes he does he does his whole gig uh does spreading these views is spreading these views one of Gandalf's biggest motivations or even their sole motivation literally his entire job is riding around Middle Earth getting people to believe what he believes yes uh if religious does your character explicitly have Divine support or assistance in gaining converts and or confronting non-believers yes absolutely he was created by what a Louis vuitar what's his name um by the Valar to go over and okay uh do characters who disagree with Gandalf's user beliefs simply do so out of spite stubbornness and or ignorance or because they're evil or being manipulated by someone evil yes yes indeed those are my plot ah does anyone who does not adopt Gandalf's ideals by the end of the story end up beating up humiliated miserable or dead yes [Laughter] okay uh does Gandalf Express unusually free enlightened or liberated views on topics such as sex and equality for their time and place I don't think so yeah I mean he's a friend to the hobbits and trusts them he he definitely is trying to get all the races to work together I think that there's a little bit we don't have to check this one but I want to point out like everyone's down on the hobbits and Gandalf even in the um in The Hobbit is like no they can add something I I want to click this one but then not the next one which says and does no one frown upon your character's behaviors or views plenty of people frown on his views and his they're like no Hobbits are dumb no the races don't have to work together uh or do only characters who don't matter disapprove EG the villain The Village Idiot no okay so does Gandalf openly call anyone else incapable incompetent foolish Etc but the character or characters referred to as such don't find your character's Behavior insulting hurtful rude belittling condescending yeah 100 percent he was the doctor House of Middle Earth uh and or do most or all of the insulted characters friends fail to get angry at your character's Behavior despite knowing their friend was insulted I mean no one ever goes after Gandalf they do not would you femi God yeah but I mean I mean they don't necessarily know that until after he comes back to life but still you know Mary's not up there saying hey don't talk to Pippin that way yeah okay uh if anyone does get angry or upset at your character's Behavior are these feelings shown to be unjustified or treated as unjustified by everyone whose opinions matter I don't know but I don't think we can check that one is the insulted person the type of person who'd never let that kind of behavior slide with anyone else no yeah Pippin is The Whipping Boy though I don't know I mean there there's some other people that Gandalf goes after um but I think we we've checked enough in this one uh he does you go after everybody yeah and okay if your character has a short temper sharp wit snarky attitude or is otherwise prone to verbal assaults are the tongue lashings and or snarkings he gives other characters always deserved and or Justified yeah yeah oh yeah there's nobody who doesn't deserve a tongue lashing from Gandalf right especially the ones who think he's very attractive yes okay does your character ever strike or attack any other character or steal or destroy any other character's possessions yet the character or characters affected don't get angry or upset over it nah I don't think this one I mean he does destroy some steal stuff yeah he does smack people yeah he does smack people but uh he he physically attacks Sam and Pippin at different points that's true um and none of them ever there's no reprisal at any he does steal the palantir from from Mary right it's not really Mary's though I think I'm gonna click this one okay uh do most or all of the characters friends fail to get angry or upset despite knowing what your character did I mean that's also true um if anyone does get angry or upset at Gandalf's Behavior are these feelings shown to be unjustified I think we can skip this one yeah that one uh is the victim the type of person who'd never let that slide no um did a serious injury result or was the item something very important to the character no is Gandalf easily provoked to violence but only gets into fight with characters who truly deserve the beating they get depends on what you consider smacking and grabbing Hobbits by years and um yeah I don't know I don't know about this one I'm gonna give him a no his his air is not easily provoked like that's you know that's that's not Gandalf Gandalf doesn't have a short fuse but when you light that fuse get out of there yeah if your character is openly defined or disrespectful toward authority figures is your character always Justified and in the right uh Gandalf is openly disrespectful towards for example um denethor he is but he is very respectful to Saruman yeah um and uh four siromon turns so I don't think I don't think we're gonna give that one he is very distracted but danathor seriously deserved it so he does attack theaden as well but only in order to save him tries to work with Dinosaur right yeah um he gives it he gives it a he's not just needlessly defiant yeah it's just after you've finally proved yourself an idiot then I'm gonna treat you like one okay are any other actions that get Gandalf into trouble with Authority Always Justified from your point of view well I mean we did just sit here justifying a bunch of other things that he does okay all right yeah uh he only does it when it is justifiable so therefore we need to check the box okay do authority figures punish Gandalf more harshly than they would have punished their peers under the same circumstances no no do authority figures not punish Gandalf when they probably would have punished their peers under the no uh are the rules of the universe bent or broken for your character like joining a group despite being too old or Too Young I'm gonna go yes he came back to life when nobody else does yeah right I gotta count that one uh by the way we're that we just finished question 36 okay and we're doing slightly better than one question per minute I guess averaged over the entire thing I don't think we've only been doing this for 20 minutes but there's no way we're going to finish this the special power station uh does your character have any psychological disorders or conditions no uh is your character mainly driven by completely Justified Revenge no was your was Gandalf an important and or famous person in a past life yes okay uh are animals instinctively attracted to Gandalf no how many Animal Companions does Gandalf keep eagle a horse oh my gosh you're right yep he does so do I need to click the instinctively attracted to Gandalf one no that's more somebody else but he that's more of a radagast thing the only human who has ever like gotten the respect of Shadow facts or whatever said animal a wolf bird of prey big cat or mythical creature well shadowfax is uh specifically a magical horse uh does Gandalf habitually share profound wisdom and knowledge no does Gandalf always have money to spend on extravagant frivolities no uh does anyone quickly and readily bestow gifts goodies and luxuries upon Gandalf that aren't mandated by local Norms of etiquette does he get a gift from collateral uh no he's dead when they go to Lauren he's dead yeah uh he Bjorn sets him up with stuff in a hobbit but I don't think I'm gonna count this also like when he goes to the Shire most the hobbits treat him with suspicion yeah nobody gives him anything so no gifts for you uh does Gandalf share your favorite type of movies music clothed Hobbies Etc thank you I mean he is a researcher uh and an archivist I think we have to go with yes on this because the songs our tolkiens Jam yeah right um and and like he the entire 40 years in between Hobbit and Lord of the Rings he spends in libraries so you take that um even though your character belongs to a different race species group that has its own culture and entertainment already or normally doesn't care for that type of thing at all for example a troll who's really into K-pop no I don't think so uh though he does really love Hobbit culture he does he is he's a hobby we give him Hobbit culture he doesn't live it that's the thing right he does though because uh the the one obvious self-insert Tolkien did was the the hobbits of the Shire are very specifically kind of old British gentlemen who live in the countryside and Gandalf comes from outside of that but loves that okay he hangs out with him all the time I'll give you that one yeah I think we got to do that uh is Gandalf some sort of genius and or Prodigy and or is unusual unusually accomplished for his time age period Place occupation or social status unusually accomplished for a wizard well let's look at the Wizards well he's unusually accomplished for his social status because in the Shire people treat him very poorly well and beyond that the blue Wizards useless radagast not that useful Saruman actively evil yeah he's like the one good wizard who pays attention and helps people okay in is he very accomplished in something that is extremely desirable and or useful in the story's Universe yes yes Magic uh is he accomplished in something that is extremely difficult for virtually anyone to achieve yeah yeah your character unusually accomplished or gifted in more than one area does your character pick up new skills and or gain ranks unusually fast during the course of the story no no arrived right well yeah like is there anything Gandalf learns no I mean he is able to do whatever the story requires him to do but it's not presented as him learning new stuff it's him presented as oh yeah also we forgot to tell you he's an expert Horsemen and swordsman yes so no he doesn't gain new powers easily um is Gandalf Simply the Best or among the best among his peer group yes uh now there's this again has multiple boxes so the best wizard chess is he the best at anything else um Horsemen right like he has these he does have the best horse in the whole world in the whole world story yes um he's not as good as Swordsmen probably as Aragorn yeah right so we won't give him that we won't give him that uh he is among the wisest of the wise though he is the best at blowing smoke oh yeah he has he can do smoke rings better than anybody he can do fireworks better than anybody and he is also uh considered to be among the wisest yes of anyone so definitely marking is he famous or renowned for any of these yes um are there are other characters extremely impressed or astonished at his skills and virtues yes yes uh do they impress even the most cynical jaded exacting and or experienced even the hobbits who hate him love his fireworks yep yes you know yeah does Gandalf modestly dismiss or deflect well-earned compliments no he doesn't no he likes him um does Gandalf have Barbie doll syndrome I don't know what that is there's a link we don't have time to click it yeah uh does your character have an exceptionally good singing voice yeah yeah does he play a musical instrument very well I don't remember seeing him I don't either um can he charm others with musical talent I don't think so okay uh does your character have any sort of power or ability that is unprecedented or unheard of among the people your character usually Associates with yes yeah uh does Gandalf have no enemies or opponents with any real ability to genuinely match him no now he he has he has some pretty Gandalf have the ability to save others from Mortal injury and or death I mean he saves their lives but he doesn't like heal them yeah I don't think and it says to save others not himself so okay does Gandalf have special abilities that can allow him to read almost anyone's thoughts and or memories instantly and with ease with few to no limitations or chances of backfiring I don't think so uh can he easily control another person with little to no possibility of resistance from the Target no no no no Jedi can he see or just know things without actually being there with few to no limitations chances of backfiring or possibilities of being blocked or discovered kinda I mean he has to do a lot of research to figure out the ring but he knows everything about everyone yeah yeah I think I think we checked that okay can he easily purify or cleanse someone of long-running anger hate selfishness evil Darkness Etc that came yeah okay yes that's the whole theodon yes it is because it does Gandalf have telepathic or empathic connection or the ability to communicate with any kind of animal yes anything such as Horses wolves big cats or mythical creatures yes bonded creatures do not count but uh we see him talking to all those other animals does he have the ability to shape-shift I mean he goes from Gandalf to Great to Gandalf the White but I don't think that's what this is asking about okay let us know when what question you want this is uh we just finished 55 55. can you quickly scroll down and see how many there are we're about a third of the way through the page based on the little scrolling go see how many how many questions there are we may want to gosh we're still in part one yeah we may want to good night just average it right so how many questions are there uh there are four or five parts and it restarts numbering at each of them okay I don't have a total but we are a third of the way through we are at 113 points so let's just give him 350 points saying it's one you know we don't even have to because 50 or more points makes him full reread it start at the topic okay at the top let's see if Gandalf is is a merry suit what's what's what's the first ranking okay zero to Five Points yes your score isn't this low from clicking several D sewifiers it may be possible that your character is poorly developed yet or a potential anti-suer oh that's right they have a d suicide and D sua fires later um yeah uh do you ever poke fun at your character's faults or weaknesses and or use them as plot devices or gags no no uh has Gandalf ever been honestly selfish Petty lazy shell or pointlessly cruel no it's Gandalf really and honestly overweight and stays overweight throughout the entire story no no is Gandalf honestly ugly and stays ugly throughout no does Gandalf get into a fight or rush into a situation without prepping for it no um is well he does die to the Bell rug no but that's that's a noble self-sacrifice yes rather than him rushing into a fight yeah okay he doesn't stay out of shape yeah he doesn't struggle with a physical disability all right move down to the bottom he doesn't have any of this okay we're at 350 yeah zero to Five Points says uh not a marriage it says you're not even a real character yet yeah uh five to sixteen points very low chance your character is a Mary Sue usually safe range to be in 17 to 21 points low to moderate chance your character is a Mary Sue generally safe range uh-huh uh 22 to 29 moderate to high chance your characters and Mary Sue still a safest range to be in but be careful okay 30 to 35 High to very high chance your characters are Mary Sue risky range to be in okay 36 to 49 extremely high chance your characters in Mary Sue very risky range yes now 50 or more points we got through approximately one third of this list yep and we have and we did the DSU of fires and we have 113 points yeah so we are already more than double the threshold for the highest category your character is cert almost certainly a Mary Sue and a bad one at that on the odd chance that he isn't it's most likely you didn't read the instructions properly if it's the letter case read the instructions and take the test again [Laughter] number one I thought it would be amusing to have Gandalf be this um but also I think I see this as proof that the entire concept is useless yeah um right Gandalf very much fits this one I'm like who would be the perfect Mary Sue according to these lists again also one of the names that I came up with because I'm like yeah he fulfills all those roles and you know what else he is an awesome character beloved by many and there's there are you can't argue that he should have not had these attributes it would have made the story objectively worse yeah um and so my argument here is let's stop using the term Mary Sue let's stop even putting that in our lexicon let's stop clickbaiting on that even though I clickbaited on this one with them well and the the reason that the label is bad yes right is because if somebody comes up and says Gandalf has too many Powers he's too good at too many things and it ends up harming the story you then can actually have I think a a valuable conversation about that yeah and say well is that true let's talk about this does his extreme ability to do everything that the story requires him to do help or hurt whereas if you use the label Mary Sue it is automatically um yeah looking down on him right is he a bad character I do think there are some arguments for instance Rey um having all the abilities takes away from other characters right she doesn't need Poe she doesn't need Finn and we can see in later installments that because she can do it all she doesn't need them therefore it is bad for your story doesn't mean that having bat Powers is bad for your story but in that specific story if Rey can fly better than Poe why is poe in the story right yeah like these sorts of things all do make for an issue that are that are fully discussable it's not because she's a Mary Sue it's because you are impacting your story in bad ways by solving problems the easy way sometimes with your character and we're all guilty of that it doesn't mean our characters are Mary sues but it does mean we can maybe force ourselves to struggle a little bit more Force our characters to struggle a little bit more and in so doing make for a stronger storyline absolutely we are going to invite a special guest to come out here speak into the microphone sir you gotta scoot over you're not even gonna appear in here so I'm in frame like a half a butt cheek on the on the chair though it's my favorite half this is I think I think that makes sense yeah I mean if you can say one thing about this podcast it's a little half-assed how's that Brandon uh yeah what we brought you on for I don't know is that what we brought you on for is that what you wanted to do maybe so this is our friend Ben he is going to be joining us next week for the entire episode it is a very special episode like the yes yes we are going to be doing something he's very stupid we're gonna do something very stupid that you should never do and Ben is going to join us I regret my decisions so come next week and uh how's that Brandon I guess is that we're doing you got us you can say it you can say it how's that Brandon inside

Channel: Brandon Sanderson

Views: 70,965

Keywords: Brandon Sanderson, Dan Wells, Gandalf, Mary sue, Writing, Characters, Character arc, the Lord Of The RIngs

Id: N1PokZxGYzU

Length: 46min 50sec (2810 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 28 2022