Is feminism still needed? | Joanna Williams x Brain Bar

here now I I mentioned that um that you think that feminism might be moving in a in a dangerous Direction could you expound on that a little bit yeah I mean my big concern about feminism nowadays in a nutshell is that um sends a message to women that they are victims in society that they're victims of sexism or victims of patriarchy in a way that's at a disjuncture to the reality of most women's lives uh obviously I put a huge caveat on that which is that in some parts of the world today women are very much structurally disadvantaged so when you look at what's going on in Iran at the moment if you look at the lives of women in Afghanistan where women are told what to wear how to dress women are forbidden from going to take part in education in higher education you know that those are examples of real legal structural disadvantages facing women but that pulls apart from the lives of women in wealthy Western societies and in the lives of women in wealthy Western societies there are no structural barriers there are no legal inequalities there are no disadvantages that so entrenched and ingrained in our society that women can't overcome them and yet the narrative that feminism continues to give us is that women are these kind of oppressed disadvantaged victimized group and I think that becomes really unhelpful and it comes to be the case I think that it's that narrative that actually begins to hold women back when you don't face any legal discrimination but you think the world is somehow going to be against you the danger is that you begin to hold yourself back and prevent yourself taking advantage of all the opportunities that are there for you well you talk a little bit about wealthy Western societies and um I don't know about wealthy but we're certainly in a western Society here and in Hungary women are structurally at a disadvantage I mean just listen to any government official talk about women essentially being mirrors just baby factories who by the age of 29 you know they need to start breeding just that they have their their reproductive years ahead of them let's make more more white Hungarian babies you see I'm not completely convinced that that matches reality now fair enough I'm not Hungarian and we're having some questions at the end so I look forward to everybody telling me that I'm wrong but if you have look at some of the statistics certainly in your higher education sector now you have more women than men in Hungarian universities and if you have a look even at the gender pay Gap in Hungary yes there is a gender pay Gap we can come on and talk about that there's a gender pay Gap um in every country in the world but in Hungary it's actually two percent below the EU average so actually hungary's not doing that badly and if you think about why the pay Gap is below the EU average in Hungary it actually makes sense to me because when you do have pro-family policies in place when you do supplement child care for example then women are able to go out to work it becomes easier for women to to make those choices so in the UK where I'm from Child Care the cost of nursery for example all falls upon the individual or falls upon families and it's extremely high I mean some in parts of London families are left paying as much for nursery as they are for their rent you know for their mortgage payment and since you have kind of two children that hugely escalates and so families then are much more likely to make the decision that it's not in a financial interest for the woman to go to work it becomes financially more viable for the woman to actually stay at home not necessarily because that's a positive Choice she's made but just because it's financially not worth a while to go to work whereas yeah in Hungary the pay Gap is is two percent less than the EU average you've got women in higher education so it seems to me that actually having pro-family policies which I think is a much more positive way of describing what you've just said um can actually be in in women's best interests I'm gonna have to take a contrarian view over here um and I don't want to come off as as condescending or insulting in any way but I think calling it a pro-family policy is is really the government line which has been you know marketed beautifully by men I know most most women that I associate myself with would call this an an anti-woman policy that it takes the agency away from from the woman and basically holding holding money over her head by saying hey spend the next 10 years of your life on your back well to challenge that the woman I know in the Hungarian Parliament who's most promoting this policy well the person I know in the Hungarian Parliament who's most promoting this policy is actually female herself which is your first woman president Catelyn Novak you know so I don't think it's just men who are promoting this policy and I think you have to look at this from the perspective of again a country like the UK or the US which may not be actively marketing themselves as being anti-family but I think a number of the policies that they have in place do actively work against families so in the UK for example um people who are struggling people who've lost their job people who are on unemployment benefit which you know at risk of being quite personal would be me when I was was a child you know my neither of my parents worked and um the UK government has introduced policies where when people have more than two children your benefits stop unemployment benefits stops so there's been a number of cases where even women who've been tragically horribly raped for example and have become pregnant as a result of rape and it's their third child they are actually financially penalized for that they don't get benefits for that child to cover the food the housing all the costs associated with that child so when you look at what hungary's doing which is providing Financial advantages and benefits for people to have children and compare that with the society that my mind works actively against families puts huge costs on people for child care really penalize us disadvantaged women for having children personally I think having a pro-family policy is a creates a much better much happier Society I think if there was a rule that also said that women couldn't go to work and and let's face it you know I'm um you described me as an old school feminist I mean I wasn't too keen on the word old but I do get the point you're making are you a school feminist makes you sound young so I don't know where to stand here but clearly you know I'm not somebody who's opposed to feminism you know I would very much describe myself as a feminist or have very much described myself as a feminist in the past and historically I recognized it was absolutely a need for feminism because if you go back to for example my mother-in-law you know who's now in her 70s she was a school teacher and when she began her employment that were actually rules that you you should leave work that women should either first of all leave work upon marriage and then later leave work upon having their first child now these were actual this was actually could actually be enforceable under the law you know that these weren't just social pressures these were actual legal pressures now I would be completely completely opposed to that you know I I guess what drives my feminism is is choice but but Choice has to come without negative repercussions or without legal structural barriers to to change people's behavior you used an interesting phrase just now the the need for feminism um it's in my opinion feminism is a sort of constantly evolving definition um and we've had a few waves I mean people right now would argue that we're in the third wave of feminism the first wave I guess or third fourth um the first wave I guess were the suffragettes um who have you know who who gained the right to vote um for white women they were particularly exclusionary of women of color we had then the next wave where it was all about Liberation the women's lib movement as it was called back then um these definitions evolve and when you're talking about I don't think that there's a need for feminism in XYZ situation are you using an evolving definition of feminism or are you being sort of static no um I mean I I totally agree with you that feminism has evolved and changed and whatever we might want to call it now a fourth wave or metoo feminism I've heard it described as you know I guess what I'm saying is we always need to look at the demands of feminism in relation to the reality of women's social situation and I think both of those two things have changed and evolved over time as well so just as much as definitions of feminism have changed so has women social position and just as we need to keep up with and think about how feminism is being defined nowadays how feminism is changing it would also be very wrong historically to to have an idea that women's lives that come somehow kind of set in aspect um as if it was still the 1950s because clearly that's not the case I mean if you have look again I'm kind of apologize for referring to the UK it's it's just obviously it's the the country I know best if you have a look in the UK you know it was back in 1992 when women first began going to University in greater numbers than men so that's four decades now um and and women don't just kind of leave University as graduates and then all right hooray I'm going to just go go back into the home give up on all my ambitions and aspirations and do nothing you know those graduates for 40 years have carried on into the world of work have been promoted have have taken top jobs have entered the professions so if you have a look at kind of law teaching especially teaching education doctors Veterinary scientists accountants women are now outnumbering men in every single one of those professions so I agree the definition of feminism has changed and moved on but also the social reality of women's lives has changed and moved on so it would be wrong to still be referring back to a definition of feminism that was to do with the 1960s women's Liberation or even the suffragettes but likewise it would be completely wrong to not recognize the reality of how women's lives have changed they absolutely have changed and I just throw another differing perspective on there when you're talking about the comparatively high qualifications and you know and the the spread of women that you see in into our positions it feels to me that sometimes when when you're not um a picture of the person in power which is you know white male mid-50s that you need to be exemplary in order to be thought of as equal when you talk about of course we have male and female equality now look at all the women we have in power but it feels like sometimes and I can relate to this being being an ethnic minority in this country um that in order to I feel women need to run to a place that a man can walk to I'm going to disagree with you I mean you know suddenly that's not not my experience I mean I think one thing that we do nowadays A Lot politically is we see that there are discrepancies and I absolutely agree with you there are discrepancies in um there are social inequalities you know in the UK there are a lot of inequalities now we can pick and choose how we divide up those inequalities and which inequalities we focus upon I mean I happen to think that in the UK the really really big inequality is class based and I'm aware of this myself when I talk about women doing really well which you know I'm not backtracking on that I think women are doing really really well but but essentially it's middle class women that I'm talking about and you have big inequalities between the lives of working-class women and middle class women but you also have huge inequalities between the lives of working class men and middle class men and so if you have a look at the group that's being particularly suffering discrepancies if you like inequality in British Society at the moment it tends to be working class men working class boys are the great white working class boys as well the group that's doing really badly in schools at the moment that the group which statistically is a lot lot less likely to be going on to university is much more likely to be unemployed or in very low paid jobs and nobody's kind of launching campaigns there's no kind of feminism equivalent for working class boys you know and we can talk about why that is but the fact is nobody's really that bothered and people seem very happy in a way to talk about well I guess from my point of view gender differences and gendered inequalities but actually there are totally there are inequalities in society but they don't always fall along those neat gendered lines anymore I think there is a program um for for boys and that itself is called feminism because it's seeing that feminism is about lifting girls up that's certainly part of it but it's about how we we create a society where we don't oppress each other based on uh on our gender identities and I think that if we if we introduce the idea of feminism to boys from a young age then they themselves are lifted up by the concept of not just saying okay she is she is she and and I am me and that's a separate thing it's we're all we're all sort of here then we can talk about we are both working class we both live on the same street we both shop at the the same place and this whole situation sucks what can we do together to to overcome the class differences you see I have two problems with that I mean the the first problem I have with it is that the fourth wave or the metoo type of feminism that we we are in at the moment it does seem to be I think particularly focused upon the idea that women are victims and men are predators that women need to fear men that men are toxic I mean we talk a lot about toxic masculinity and often feminism is wheeled out as the solution to toxic masculinity as if men are somehow a problem that needs to be solved and feminism can be the medicine that they can take to kind of cure their toxicity which I think is a really kind of horrible discourse you know well because I mean I have two sons you know I'm married I don't think I have a father and a brother you know we we live in society and just looking around the room here you know we live men and women together to write half the population offers somehow talk I don't think you're toxic you know haven't met me yet no no I I get what you're saying I don't think that the the definition of toxic masculinity is saying you know men are toxic it's just saying well actually there's a little bit this is really fourth wave of me but there's masculine feminism of sorry masculine feminine male female and there's aspects of masculinity and what makes that idea thrive that have a toxic element you see I I think there could be aspects of femininity that have a toxic element too you know why do we focus on the aspects of masculinity that have a toxic element and why do we not celebrate anymore the values that are traditionally associated with masculinity such as a stoicism or strength physical and mental strength resilience that kind of fortitude bravery courage you know for men and women I think those values have an awful lot to offer you know these are values which I would hold in very very high regard And yet when people criticize masculinity and particularly have this discourse around toxic masculinity often what they're saying is that it's those particular values you know I guess again bring being a Brit we would describe it as the stiffer polyp kind of values you know that that these values are questionable that these values are toxic and then actually if we all just kind of emoted a bit more and we thought the world would be a better place well I actually disagree with that and I think rather than seeing masculine values as being toxic we should look at how it's wrong to associate them with masculinity you know these are values that everybody can Aspire towards and buy into and it actually does our society as a whole a huge disservice to trash these values it's so difficult for me to sort of um look up towards the stiff upper lip attitude because that's the repression of emotions and I think really everyone in this room would agree that men generally are not able or they're sort of stopped from expressing their emotions Boys Don't Cry Etc and the comparative suicide rates of men versus women back that up so toxic masculinity is that sort of stiff upper lip to me UCM what does that make you think of yeah no I just I think we have witnessed over the course of the past 20 30 years a huge value shift in society so again I'm sure everybody's aware that our Queen in the UK died recently and there was this huge National outpouring in response to that I mean I'm I'm not a royalist I'm a Democrat you know I know I'm getting into a different discussion here I'd rather we didn't have a monarchy I'd far rather have a president I could vote out but the queen is someone who I admired a great deal personally and and what did the queen embody it seemed to me what were people actually mourning in people who'd never obviously met the queen it seemed to me they were actually mourning the passing of that set of values and people actually recognize that you can't run a society where people are kind of going around having their emotions on display all the time you know if you are facing real problems such as an energy crisis War you know you're facing global conflict serious problems call for serious Minds you know they don't call for feelings and emotion I'm which is not to say kind of deny feelings and emotion but it's possible to kind of put that to one side and actually think how can we deal seriously with this situation in front of us and is emotion going to be helpful you know would emotion help solve the problems to do with climate to do with the power crisis uh to do with war or is actually kind of putting on a stiff upper lip a brave face however you want to describe it and and addressing the task in hand seriously and unemotionally rationally with reason with logic is that a better way to go about dealing with things and I happen to think yes and I haven't also to think that for all you talked about everyone in this room I wouldn't be so I'd be a bit more humble I'm not I took a poll earlier I'm not convinced I can speak on behalf of everyone in this room but but certainly it seemed to me that the outpouring of grief for the queen that we witnessed in the UK was about much more than her surpass and much more as as her as the head of state but was actually the passing of a set of values and the transition to a new set of values and and it reflected people's own ease perhaps with that transition interesting uh we have a few minutes left and I know that this is a really hot button topic and I want you guys to have your voices heard so look out for volunteers if you have any questions raise your hands our volunteers will be handing out microphones so make yourselves known I'm I'm sure okay we have we have a we have a lady in the back over there in the in the pink top up on the high rises thank you so much for your talk it was very interesting so I want to ask a question you mentioned certain qualities uh both in like masculinity and femininity which should be both celebrated and also others which maybe shouldn't so I wanted to ask you what's your opinion on some feminine valleys which in your view can be quite toxic thank you oh I guess a very very good question um and well I guess you know in a way I'm being hugely stereotypical here and and I'm also contradicting myself because I don't I mean I guess the point I'm making about masculine stereotypically masculine values is that I don't think they should be associated with masculinity you know their values that I aspire to have and the values which I wish my upbringing had perhaps done more to instill within me so I guess you know I really really hate to say Feminine values in relation to being more emotional perhaps because I don't think that's something which is inherently I don't think there's anything to do with my genitalia for example that makes me more likely to cry than if I was a man um but I think I wish I didn't I feel the need to cry quite as much and not that cry all the time um but you know I think it it kind of becomes too easy you know and and I think actually the toughen up a little bit message is is some times helpful not always and clearly there are times when an emotional response is necessary is helpful and and shouldn't be repressed you know absolutely stress that but but sometimes in some situations as I was saying before you know these values are not helpful and could be seen as as more toxic um so what do you think about the idea or the concept that a woman can be either a good mother or pursue a career but can do the two things at the same time yeah no I I think that's a really really good question and it's I'd be very honest with you it's something I've battled with myself in my own life so I have a career and I have three children and it's not always been easy you know um there's been times when I've been absolutely exhausted and I thought what Nerf am I doing why have I chosen this life for myself and unfortunately at that point it was too late to give up some of my children which would probably have been my preferred option at that point in time and you know I decided to continue with my career a bit as well but I have to say I think I think clearly I I'd be lying if I said it wasn't possible I'd be lying if I said I haven't done it but I guess the the again to come back and tie this in with the other things I've been saying previously you know he's not here luckily but the reason why it's been possible for me to do it is clearly because I haven't been doing it on my own you know I've done it as part of a family I've had my husband working alongside me and there's been times when I've not been able to pick my children up from school for example and my husband has he's cooked dinner some nights I'd you know all the practicalities you're not working out as an individual and I think this is why I would describe the Hungarian policies as pro-family rather than necessarily pro-woman because I think it people don't lead their lives as individuals you know and and this is why the subtitle of my book is is why we all need liberating from the gender Wars because I think the kind of pitching of men against women as if we live in two distinct tribes you know kind of women over there with children men over there with careers is just really really unhelpful I think we live like saying in communities in families and we're not really making these big decisions over time purely as individuals we're making these decisions as what's best for for families I hope that answers your question great do we have any more questions raise your hands loud and proud right there in the corner of white top so uh something that I'm wondering a lot about is um you know how do you find because we all agree on you also mentioned that there are still inequalities between men and women uh so how do you find a balance between uh between because this victimhood you're talking about like how do you find a balance between acknowledging the inequalities and the need to change and between like bringing the or like living the like toxic parts of of this victimhood like how how do you how do you acknowledge the need to change and how do you take steps in order to change without sorry the victimhood like what's what's your alternative to Fort White feminism yeah I mean I guess what I would like to see is is men and women working together if you like to look at what the problems are look at where the inequalities lie I mean I don't think I don't think kind of or so when when we first had this situation in the UK where more women started going to University than men that the kind of cliche description of This was oh isn't this great you know the doctor's daughter can now go to university just like the doctor's son and I don't think kind of continually looking for more opportunities to raise up middle class women I mean for example um there's talk of having quotas on Boards of directors you know and there's lots of obsession with the salaries of the kind of really high earners um you know female owners for who in the UK who work for big companies like the BBC for example you know if and if there's not complete pay parity for women who have like earned hundreds of thousands of pounds a year I mean literally hundreds of 1000 it's way way more than I would ever run then these make big headlines you know there's a huge Scandal about this and yeah sure you know I would argue as well for pay parity uh you know for people doing the same work but that doesn't help where the real inequalities lie as far as I'm concerned so if you have a look at a company like the BBC or you know in in any major institution it would tend to be working class women who are being the cleaners the Caterers you know the the makeup artists the secretaries you know who are doing a lot more of the kind of less glamorous jobs if you like and yet the continual focus of feminism is on this very elite group of women it seems to me and constantly raising up and and kind of flagging up the needs of this Elite group of women does absolutely nothing to help the women who are lower down on on much lower salaries and the the divide it seems to me in UK okay Society at the moment is between graduates and non-graduates and constantly kind of affirming the needs of of graduate women does nothing to help raise the salaries of women who are non-graduates thank you very much for your question unfortunately that's all the time we have for the Q a but Dr Williams will be signing her book outside it's called women versus feminism it's as I mentioned it's also published in in Hungarian so check it out I have a chat with her if your question wasn't uh wasn't addressed and Dr Williams thank you so much for joining us over here give it up for Dr Williams everyone foreign [Music]

Channel: Brain Bar

Views: 8,366

Keywords: Brain Bar, future

Id: ZpNLUT-gydk

Length: 29min 2sec (1742 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 21 2022