Is a 2 state solution for the Israel-Palestine conflict possible? | Inside Story

as a 4-day ceasefire takes hold in Gaza talk of a two-state solution is once again reemerging among the International Community but given the level of violence in the past 7 weeks across the occupied territories is now the time to pursue this path to a lasting peace and what would it take from both sides to secure it this is Inside Story [Music] hello there I'm James Bay 47 days of air strikes on the Gaza Strip nearly 15,000 Palestinians killed 1,200 Israelis dead ongoing raids and arrests by the Israeli Army in the occupied West Bank and add to that Israeli settler attacks on Palestinian communities is now really the best time to restart discussion surrounding the elusive two-state solution for Israel and Palestine international calls have begun to grow louder to pursue this but what are the red lines for both sides and what would a return to 1967 borders look like in reality we'll explore all these issues with our panel of guests in a moment but first this report from ktia Lopez hodan calls to revive a two-state solution are reemerging to address the crisis in Gaza during a visit to the Rafa border crossing in Egypt Spain's prime minister Pedro Sanchez urged the European Union which he currently leads to make that happen I think that the momentum Has Come For The International Community especially for the European Union and member states to recognize uh the state of Palestine Belgium which next year will take over the rotating EU presidency Echoes that call the destruction of Gaza is unacceptable we cannot accept that a society is being destroyed the way it is being destroyed Detroit repeated attempts for a two-state solution have failed for decades there are several issues at play including Israel's illegal settlements land confiscation and the status of occupied East Jerusalem which would be the capital of any future Palestinian State the changes are notable this map outlines Israeli and Palestinian territories in 1967 after The Six Day War decades later this is the new territorial outline between 1967 and 2022 Israel has built about 300 illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem violating international law the US which is Israel's strongest supporter is also backing calls for a two-state solution in a recent statement President Joe Biden said two states for two peoples it's more important now than ever but previous US administrations say political push back has continuously blocked this from happening Hamas is not a partner for any kind of peace or two- State solution but the Palestinian Authority might one time again be new leadership uh in Gaza might again be so you to get to a point where that's possible seven weeks into the war on Gaza calls for a two-state solution are growing louder well beyond the Middle East with supporters insisting it's the best option to ensure security and dignity for both Israelis and Palestinians Kia Lopez oan for insight [Music] story well let's discuss all of this further by bringing in our panel of guests in Tel Aviv Alan leel a former director general of the Israeli foreign Ministry and a former Israeli ambassador to South Africa he's also part of an Israeli campaign to advance recognition of a Palestinian state by other governments in Washington DC Phyllis Ben a fellow at The Institute for policy studies an international adviser to Jewish voice for peace and author of understanding the Palestinian Israeli conflict a primer and in rala Mustafa bakui Secretary General of the Palestinian national initiative and a former information Minister for the Palestinian Authority thank you all of us all of you for joining us today to discuss a two-state solution now this is an idea that clearly isn't new it's been around since before uh the formation of the state of Israel with the un Palestine partition plan although that also in addition to having an Arab and Jewish state was going to have an international City for Jerusalem U let me start by getting your basic view before we discuss this in in detail um do you think that a two-state solution is desirable and viable Mustafa let's start with you well it was desirable and it was viable but Israel killed it Netanyahu in particular came to power with one goal to kill the possibility of two-state solution and he managed to do so in two ways first of all he obstructed any possible negotiations and second he expanded settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories specifically in Gaz in West Bank to a level that makes the two-state solution impossible in the process they've created a one new reality a one apartheid state reality uh pushing Palestinians to start to think that the only alternative to one apartheid state is one Democratic state with equal rights now Netanyahu is coming with the second plan with his fascist crowd in his government like smotrich and Bing and their goal now is to solve the demographic problem where the number of Palestinians is equal if not a little bit more than Jewish Israelis on the land of historic Palestine by trying to impose ethnic cleansing he wants to start with Gaza evicting 2.3 million people out of Gaza and this is the real purpose of this horrible attack on Gaza and then he's trying he will be moving to the West Bank this is the exact reality of today okay if you want to speak will we'll bring you back we'll bring you back in in a bit Mustafa let's get alon's take of this uh do you think it is viable now a two-state solution do you think it's desirable the current circumstances I certainly think it's desirable I am a two Stater from my early adult years I always belied this is the best solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and with what happened over the years on the 6th of October I was among those believing that this dream is gone that it's not possible anymore and not only because of the number of settlers but also because the Israeli government in the last decade dropped the idea officially dropped the idea and in every Coalition agreement we had until 10 years ago the two- State solution was a goal of the Coalition about 10 years ago it was removed so we were very disillusion we we really believed it's not possible anymore and when you ask me today I think the idea is back on the table okay okay we'll come we'll come to you again in a minute Phyllis your take please well first I would say that I think on the question of viability that there is no land left for a Palestinian State whether or not we'd like it I think it's just not realistic unless we're talking about removing somewhere close to 800,000 illegal Israeli settlers on that land which I don't think is on anyone's agenda number two I think that we have to be clear that the kind of state quote that was being talked about for the Palestinians was never really a Palestinian state it would be an entity that lacked control of its own bard orders of its own water of its own airspace its electrical grid self-defense it was not designed ever it was never discussed as something that would truly be an equal state with the state of Israel and third my only point is I'm an American I'm a Jewish girl from California I don't think I have any right to say whether it's a good thing or a bad thing that's for people who live in that land Palestinians and Israelis to decide and the notion that my president or me as a taxpayer should have some right to choose as opposed to saying what we want is equality if it's one state equality for all within the one state if it's two states equality within both States and between both States but I think as I said as an analyst I don't think it's viable any longer because there is simply no land left okay Mustafa my day job when I'm not here in Doha which I am at the moment is based at the UN in New York for Al jazer and I watch the security council meeting that happens every single month on the Middle East and the situation regarding Israel and Palestine and every single month I listen to all 15 members of the security Council talk and mention a two-state solution it's rather like a mantra but no one ever talks about the steps to make it happen do you think the talk now we're hearing for example from the the Spanish prime minister and the Belgian prime minister Minister do you think it's actually changed or do you think they're just saying it because they have nothing else to say no there is change and the change is specifically because the heroism and the steadfastness of the Palestinian people especially in Gaza but all over Palestine have defeated the Israeli Netanyahu plan to eliminate the Palestinian question and liquidate through normalization with Arab countries as he was planning to so the pales issue is back on the table nobody can avoid it unfortunately it has to be a situation where Israelis are hurt before the world starts to see the reality of Palestine uh there were many many better ways to look at the problem during the last 30 years but the world turned there back to us and especially the United States of America and Western Europe the talk about two-state solution became a title of hypocrisy it be became a cliche that they would mention just to avoid dealing with the problem it's became just a slogan but in reality nobody worked for it if anybody really meant it they would have initiated real sanctions plans on Israel for continuing settlement activities which all these countries including the United States of America admitted was a violation of international law and admitted it would kill the possibility of two State solution so Israel was allowed to increase the number of settlers from 121,000 to more than 750,000 today and they became a major political power inside Israel producing such fascist like smri and Bing becoming actually the real governors of the West Bank now if the world wants I mean the the options are three there are no other options either one Democratic state with equal rights which I prefer for everybody but it would not be a Jewish only state it cannot be one Democratic state of Israel wants to maintain this nation state law which says that self-determination in a it's Israel meaning all of Palestine is for Jewish people only it has to be fully Democratic and fully equal which means equal National and civil rights if that's not what they want and they want two-state solution there are two conditions one the complete evacuation of all settlers from the West Bank and second negotiations will not be about what will happen but will be about implementing a particular end result which everybody would agree about which is that the end of the process is the creation of a Palestinian State the end of Israeli occupation of all occupied territories in 1967 and that the borders are not for discussion the borders are the borders of the 4th of junee 1967 including East Jerusalem if these conditions to these two conditions are there there can be a Palestinian state but without these two conditions the talk about two states becomes only one way of avoiding the problem this is my opinion Al Alan Alan if I can bring you in on this you just heard Mustafa say that up until now the International Community the two- State solution had become just a slogan would you agree with that and do you think they're serious right now I think there is a difference between 2014 and today I think that until 2014 ER countries ER and especially the most relevant ones that are interested in this conflict including the United States and the the European countries really believed the idea is feasible it doesn't mean that they adopted it on the governmental level or put pressure on Israel to implement it but I remember and I was part of it in the last three months of 2014 one Parliament after the other in Western Europe adopted a resolution to call upon the government to recognize a Palestinian State I think at this stage they really believe in it what happened there were several things the first time the first one of them was Isis the major Terror attacks of Isis starting in January 2015 and the big March in Paris and so changed the mood ER in the Palestinian in the Western World on Islam and as a result of it also on the Hamas and the Palestinian issue and there was less Readiness in Europe when the focus was on Isis to discuss a Palestinian State parallel to it and I agree what was said the Israeli government understood the the world is not pushing putting pressure and removed the issue and it was not a a policy of Israel anymore so the the fact that in the last decade the world kind of dropped the idea definitely didn't put pressure on Israel and the Israeli government dropped the idea caused the situation that prior to this war it was not an issue let me bring phis in on that point because when I say sit listening to those un Security Council meetings I listen to the 15 people 15 um members talk about a two-state solution I listen to the Palestinian delegate talk about two-state solution and you never hear the words coming from an Israeli sitting in the security Council for literally years in fact um I tried in the last year to um to address Ambassador gilad Adan the Israeli Ambassador on this I said do you simple question does your government believe in a two-state solution he walked off I mean is Israel doesn't believe in this does it Israel certainly does not believe in it but I think this is not something new and we'll come to you in a second Mustafa we'll come to you in a second Mustafa Phyllis please okay okay thank you okay I think that it's certainly true that the current Israeli government has been far more explicit in its rejection of a two-state solution earlier Israeli governments talked about it talked around it none of them ever acknowledged the realities is that Mustafa so clearly laid out a few minutes ago the notion that there would have to be the removal of uh all settlers or the agreement of all current settlers to become Palestinian set C citizens sorry Palestinian citizens with no special privileges no special protection no arms against their own government they would have to be citizens like everyone else which would make it essentially two equal citizens equal citizenships in two different countries uh but no one is talking about that as a model the models always included the idea that Israel would be the dominant power and what we're hearing now is a much more explicit call for accepting the reality of the Israeli legal system which so many in the world now identify as an apartheid system partly because of the laws that have been passed explicit laws that mandate discrimination against non-jews the most recent one the one that Mustafa referred to the nation state law which is essentially the equivalent in the United States of a constitutional amendment that says explicitly that the right of selfdetermination in the land of Israel meaning all of the land of historic Palestine belongs only to Jews that's a very clear understanding of who is to have power and who will have the choice as one Israeli leader outlined very explicitly the choice will be either Palestinians leave ethnic cleansing as we're now seeing the effort to force people out or they will agree to live under the suppression of a dominant population that of Jews and Jewish Jewish power over Palestinians or they will die okay let me let me bring let Mustafa was very keen to say something Mustafa let me bring you in no I was going to say something similar actually no Israeli government before even the government of itak Rabin agreed on a Palestinian State all they have been talking about is some kind of self-governing authority they differ about the size of the land that will be under this self-governing Authority about the amount of Natural Resources they will be in control of but all Israeli governments without exception up to now we didn't see that government that would agree with a Palestinian independent state meaning that a state would have sovereignity would have control over its borders would have security control of its airspace of its electromagnetic field Etc and even that formula of self-governing structure that could be called a state or whatever you call it Empire maybe even that Netanyahu did not accept okay and that's why Netanyahu made it the goal of his life not only to aggravate the public tillak Rin was assassinated by an Israeli extremist but to kill the very idea that Palestinians would have any form of self-determination okay let me let me for a moment pause for a moment let me read you a quote uh this was when um the issue of settlements as often as it been at the top of the agenda it's a quote from the former un Secretary General bang kimoon uh he said let me read you the parties must act and act now to prevent the two- State solution from slipping away forever unfolding and implementing this Vision two states living side by side in peace and Security offers the only means by which Israel could retain its Jewish majority and Democratic status that was in 2016 it was slipping away forever that was before the Trump Administration and a massive expansion of settlements being built um what do you say Alon to people who say there's absolutely no way now it's already dead it's an apartate State how do you dismantle settlements that have more than 70 700,000 settlers living in them first I was part of the Rabin government so I know exactly who were the people and I know exactly why Rabin was assassinated we wanted a Palestinian State and it cost Rabin his life as you know I think we are missing two words in this discussion one the will and the will of the leadership when you have a leadership that doesn't want a Palestinian State you will not have a Palestinian state but we are speaking on a different leadership we are speaking after this war there might be there will possibly be a different Israeli leadership now if the new Israeli leadership will come back to the two states idea it can happen now another important word that we miss is the swap of land all previous discussions on a Palestinian state with Arafat with Abu maen always spoke on a swap of land not on the removal of all settlers and the number of settlers here were exaggerated I don't know about the higher number at least in the West Bank than half a million but the the swap was the key and we agreed on the first stage to a 3% SW then in the Abu ma talks it was about 5 six% it can be maybe more now but with the swap it is possible and I think now those of us who want two states have to promote the idea of a swap to explain the idea of a swap of land because without a swap I agree it cannot work okay well among those talking about a two-state solution in recent in in a moment Mustafa one of those talking about a two-state solution uh in recent hours has been President Biden a two-state solution where Israelis and Palestinians can one day live side by side with equal measure of freedom and dignity but it does I mean it's all very well saying a two-state solution but it does matter what you mean by a two-state solution we look at the Trump Administration uh Jared Kushner came up with something that um uh that president abas said look like a a Swiss cheese um if you look at the un's definition um it it says Phyllis a vision of two states Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and security that bits the same as Biden but on the basis of the pre-1967 lines with Jerusalem as the capital of both States do you think the US support that bit of the statement absolutely not absolutely not because that implies number one that there would be real sovereignty for a Palestinian State no one is talking ever not since the Madrid Conference of 1991 not since Oslo and not today no one in power in Western capitals particularly in my capital is talking about a truly Sovereign Palestinian state with control of all the things that make up sovereignty they're talking about an entity there was an extraordinary moment on this show about two weeks ago I was on uh on discussing another aspect of the of the Gaza crisis and there was someone on it I've been trying to remember his name and unfortunately I don't but he was a he's a a um an activist in the Democratic Party in the US from Jewish Democrats a great supporter of Israel and a supporter of a version of the two-state solution and he said of course the settlements I had raised something about the settlers as a serious problem in the notion of two states and he said of course the settlers would have to be removed and Israel has shown and this was the extraordinary thing he said Israel has shown now in Gaza that it could move a million people in a very short time so clearly it could do that with the settlers and unfortunately it was the last moment of the show and I didn't get the chance to follow up with a question to him are you saying that you're proposing that Israel should be bombing this 750 to 800,000 settlers across the West Bank and killing thousands of them because that's what it took for Israel to force people in Gaza to move from the northern part of the Gaza Strip to the southern part what killing them the problem with this show we get to the end and we we we we can't say everything so I'd like to go to Mustafa on the US Point Mustafa um he's talking about a two-state solution do Palestinians think the US is an honest broker given its strong support for Israel in this war that's now killed about 15,000 people in Gaza no the United States Administration is not uh cannot play that role because it has become a partner in the crime in what's going on in Gaza and that that doesn't make it capable of being a mediator and what we need is something different but in response to what was said about the Swap and all other projects like Yos ban project of Confederation they're all designed to accommodate settlement building to accommodate an illegal action of settlements what Israelis don't realize and don't understand that the what they have done in Gaza now the back the ACT of ethnic cleansing of 1.5 million people from the north and center of Gaza brought this whole question to its roots which is that Israel was created as a settler Colonial project ethnically cleansing 70% of the Palestinian people the message that we get now as all Palestinians in the West Bank in Gaza and even inside Israel itself is that these guys only want one solution which is to ethnically cleanse all of us and we will not allow that and we will struggle for our freedom and we will get our freedom they don't want two states fine but they will not cheat us with a ploy of something that is uh nothing but a Subs servant structure for Israeli occupation Mustafa thank you very much and thanks to all our guests Alan leel phis Bennis and Mustafa bouti Al jazer continues to cover the war in Gaza and the region around the clock for more analysis and context text I'd recommend going to our website al.com and if you have views about all of this we'd like you to express them go to our Facebook page that's facebook.com AJ insidestory or on X the one we used to call Twitter you'll find us AJ insid story from me James Bay and the team here in Doha please stay safe bye-bye for [Music] now

Channel: Al Jazeera English

Views: 202,201

Keywords: Al Jazeera, Al Jazeera English, Gaza bombardment, Gaza hospitals, Gaza humanitarian aid, Gaza humanitarian crisis, Israel, Israel Hamas war, Israeli army, Palestine, al Jazeera, al jazeera English, al jazeera live, al jazeera video, aljazeera English, aljazeera latest, aljazeera live, aljazeera live news, gaza blockade, gaza healthcare system, gaza shortages, gaza under attack, gaza war, hamas, latest news, news headlines

Id: VpVvPNLY6hg

Length: 28min 30sec (1710 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 26 2023